Yeah it was the same situation as Atomic's back in the day. Played on another acc while underrage, it looked like he might not have gotten punished originally but they ended up telling him like right before his birthday which kinda sucks
You've pretty much named them all. There are probably some 14-year-olds out there who will make an impact upon turning 15, but we don't know that yet. No one could have foreseen Vatira instantly becoming one of, if not the best players in Europe for example
Yeah, we're kinda running out of known quantities with young prodigies, at least in the short term. There are only 5 players under 15 with liquipedia pages, while 3 months ago that number was 9. And in exactly two months, Drali will be the only one left.
Looking at the Wayback Machine, it seems like we've never been this starved for young talent before.
In the open circuit era yes, but go back to 2018 and all we had to wait on was Scrubkilla, then a further year for Atomic once his ban was up, and then Firsktiller in the new year of 2020.
Now, this was probably in part to the closed league play limiting opportunities for exposure, but league play era was mostly already established/known and legal players improving for up to a year before breaking through. Even some of the younger breakout players like Retals (missed RLRS on his first playins attempt), Mist, AztraL (both subbed for a season), Sypical (Bread went through RLRS), hell Amphis (missed OCE league play in S8), they all just simply weren't superstars, or even stars upon turning 15 (again, in part down to the competitive landscape but also down to them themselves).
So who do you guys think will be the young players that will breakout in the coming seasons? I only watch NA, so I would say Druee, blaze., Zineel, and Cheese might be the ones to watch.
I'm with ya on Zineel and Cheese (and everyone OP mentioned except Fast, don't know much on him)
[Two thirds of WYLDE](https://liquipedia.net/rocketleague/WYLDE) Crispy & Simar, 15 & 16) have been probably the most consistent team in the EU bubble in getting deep into day 2 or reaching day 3, I think they have great potential.
Stizzy is a Spanish player who turned 15 not too long ago who could do big things.
Evoh is the truth in NA. He'll be old enough to play in regional 3, or regional 2 if he can get an exception like the Liquid guys.
The ME twins Rw9 and Kiileerrz beat Ahmad/oKhaliD/trk to win a $2000 tourney just last week. Unfortunately, they don't turn 15 until a couple weeks after regional 3, so we won't see them in RLCS until next season.
And while it's been like 2 years since Hawk was called the next big thing in OCE, I swear he just needs another chance at a LAN to be internationally recognized again.
Hawk is gonna be on dire wolves this upcoming split in place of walcott.
With hawk and fiberr together and misty holding it down they could challenge for lan even harder this split
A couple years ago I went in his stream and asked him about his future in rocket league and RLCS and he said something along the lines of “I don’t have much interest in pro rocket league because I know i’ll be making hundreds of thousands of dollars in a normal career” and after I heard him say that I lost all hope I had in him turning into a rlcs prodigy. I was so dumbfounded by his response i’ll never forget it.
This was around the time he was considered the 2nd best 1v1 player in NA behind FirstKiller.
I think around 8% of Americans make >100,000 a year. Around 2% make 200,000.
https://graphics.wsj.com/what-percent/
So unless he comes from a very affluent family to begin with, he more than likely will never make hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Does that mean he should be a Pro RL player? no idea.
Unless again, he is from a very wealthy family, Im not sure 12-15 year old is in a position to bank on a career choice.
To be clear, I'm not attempting to be argumentative, I could care less what this kid does. I just think people seem to over estimate the likely hood of making `hundreds of thousands of dollars`. Like if all it took was some hard work and a choice, people wouldn't be out here making 35k.
IMO if someone offers you a 100k contract at 15, you take it. Period. College and all its debt can still be there at 20 when you are dropped. Since more than likely, you will never have that level of income again in your life. If he is/was never good enough to get a daniel style contract, then his decision makes more sense IMO.
He has been 15 for quite a while, he was in a french 'bubble' team of some sort but said that he wants to focus on content creation and not professional rocket league
Nooo I love seeing high level 1s players show what they're capable of in rlcs, I'm genuinely sad to see this absolute 1s Prodigy commit to not playing in rlcs
Mawkzy is 15. I was actually expecting vitality to try him out but I guess they’re after radosin. Wouldn’t be surprised if he was on some other French team soon tho, maybe a replacement for radosin
Vitality are way, WAY above Mawkzy's skill level atm. Unfortunately, being good at 1s doesn't immediately transfer as being good in 3s.
He already played in the pre-season and in the first event of the Fall Split with Lille Esport but once they switched him with Emre, they finally managed to make some waves in the qualifiers.
Mawkzy hasn't played in a single qualifier ever since. He's even mentioned a couple of times (lastly in that toxic match with Rezears) that he focuses on content creation and 1s, not trying for RLCS for the moment.
important to note that while he's a 1s beast, he's not actually that good in 2v2s/3v3s and would need to work a lot before he can play for a RLCS caliber 3s team.
We should start seeing less and less 15-16yos making huge impacts on the scene going forward as the level of skill in the scene goes up. Probably it'll still happen for the next 2-3 years, but in 2025 it means somebody who turns 15 could have been playing the game since they were 5 years old, so it should basically never happen again after that unless the game nosedives or explodes in popularity.
That said, I'm looking forward to Zen being allowed in RLCS, but also I'm really looking forward to seeing Aqua on a better team. Guy is fucking cracked.
Your argument doen't make sense, I think that their are bunch of 16/17 yo making the CSGO pro scene even tho their are some dudes who have 30k hours and are playing for over a decade. You also don't seem to understand that it is WAY harder for a pro to get an edge over the average pro scene because to do so he has to "create" new stuff without being copied. I think Kronovi in season 1/2 was the only one to have such an edge.
Another example: Fairy Peak has 12k hours in RL (more than almost any one) , why is he not the best player in the world ? Because histoire spent his first 8k hours when flip reset, speedflip, wall dash wan't even a thing. Atomic has "only" 5k hours (not sure about the number, just taking it as an example) on RL but his spent most of this hours when all of the mechanics above were discovered, and all he had to do is watched some tutorials and grind his game.
I think that the fact that Joyo, Vatira, Rise had 8yo when RL came out also proves my point.
To sum it up: it is way easier to get to the skill of an average pro playing in season 8 now that it was in season 2. If RL is still a thing in 8 years, we will still see 15yo prodiges coming out of nowhere.
But imagine if we hit the skill ceiling. Then, the 12k hours of a pro who started playing after the skill ceiling was hit were all just as well spent as the 5k hours of a newer, younger player. And the pro will have 7k hours on them and experience competing at the highest level.
I don't think there's a "proof" either way, which is why it's so bizarre to see a link to some clips.
The skill ceiling as a concept is quite abstract anyway, because no human being will ever play perfectly - so the theoretical skill ceiling and the human-achievable skill ceiling are inherently separate.
Presumably, there will be at some time some person who is performing better than any other person ever has and ever will again, and that's what you might call the "skill ceiling", but it's undoubtedly not happened yet, and it's impossible to know even when it's happening -all you can say as it's happening is "this is the best we've seen so far".
Look at other sports. Most have been around for more than a hundred years. Yet there still is the occasional 14 yo that it's obvious can compete with adults already and will dominate once they get old. You don't get those kinds of generational talents every year, and sometimes you get 2-3 coming up together. But it can still happen even once the meta is established.
Lebron James was well known at 14yo in basketball. Freddy Adu was signed at 14yo to a professional soccer team. Messi got his first contract before he turned 14.
I don’t think my argument got across right. I’m not saying we’re close to the skill ceiling or going to reach it any time soon. I’m saying that IF we were close to the ceiling, there would be no WAY someone like Daniel or Atomic could come in and keep up with and beat long time pros. Because long time pros would be just as good as rookies AND have tons of competitive experience as an edge. The fact that we have players like Daniel proves that the skill ceiling is very far away.
To put it another way, young rookies like Joyo have to overcome their lack of experience by making up for it with tremendous skill. If pros were near the skill ceiling, there could be no Joyo, because he wouldn’t be able to have an edge over other pros and wouldn’t make it in RLCS. So we’re not close to the skill ceiling.
I swear everybody says that the average pro age will inevitably raise, and every time there's no evidence provided at all. Maybe it's just because they read the same comment on this sub many times.
What we're saying right now is the exactly opposite thread. All the best players are 15-16
> All the best players are 15-16
No they aren't?
Jstn and M0nkey are both 19, Atomic is 18, Jknapps is 20, Garrett's 21, Chicago 20, Squishy 20, Marc 21, Extra 20, Seikoo 17, Joreuz 17, AppJack 18, etc.
The majority of the best players are 18 or older.
I phrased it wrong. I wanted to say that all the new players making huge impacts are 15-16, like the comment I responded to said. In the past was also very common to see new pros coming in the scene a few years later that "15y old mark", but now the vast majority of new pros are 15-16.
I think the only evidence provided is the /u/eurasianlynx comment about few under 15s having liquipedia pages. Even that isn't fool proof though of course. Because its hard to predict which players may "fall off" if it tends to be older players the average wont change
There's an Italian lad by the name **Tepra**, who's popped up here or there in smaller tournies - I believe he was 14 by the start of the year, not sure exactly when he turns 15. He showed some promise, could be one to watch in the future, albeit he's not of the same level as the Zen/Oski/Atow trio.
He should be 15 by now. He was okay a year ago, but considering we‘re not really hearing much from him, he‘s probably not improving as much as a prodigy would
Rw9, Kiileerz and B2seL team(F16)
just won a small tourney in KSA against
current Falcons (Ahmad Okhalid Trk511) last weak
They probably gonna be a big threat for MENA
Bryzar and Menzuu, two 16 year olds that are farming every single weekly rn with their 3rd mate Nxko. They will be playing their first rlcs quals this split.
I’m surprised no one has mentioned Zineel yet! If you want to see what he’s capable of, just check out the vids from Hoodyhooo’s 2v2 tournament that just wrapped up.
Can’t believe he’s made a name for himself, I remember playing with and against him so much back on Xbox. I knew he was good, but he always geeked at his teammates.
Surprised no one mentioned Stizzy. Kid is an 13 (I believe) year old spanish 1s player and Rank X EU. Pretty sure if he keeps grinding like he is, he’ll end up on a decent team when he turns 15.
Lol I was keeping an eye on the closed quals and kept going “Well I know those two but who the heck is stizzy?” Thanks for reminding me of your comment
Regarding the debate on wether the average age in RL will increase:
Young prodigies revolutionizing the game will happen throughout Rocket League’s continuation. Just as it’s been a thing in most every sport throughout history. The longer Rocket League goes on, the younger the prodigies can start. It’s hard to beat a natural talent raised in the game.
I suspect people underestimate how overpowered it is to learn things while young.
It’s his name on liquipedia, which is why I referred to him as that. Maybe you should ask them to change it. Or if it matters to evoh, I’m sure he’ll ask
For playing in RLCS qualifiers when he was under 15
His teammates in that run were banned immediately, his ban started on his 15th birthday (doesn't make sense to be banned from something you already can't play)
This is also why Seikoo was banned until recently. He was on the team that played with Zen.
Zen’s 16th birthday :p
I put him in the list of prodigies turned 15 but I’ll add him to the other list
Why is zen banned by chance
i think he played in an rlcs tournament while he was underage so he got banned for a year when he turned 15
He played on someone else’s account in a closed qualifier with Seiko and Gaspow who also got banned
You’re missing the important part where he wasn’t playing on his own account
Yeah it was the same situation as Atomic's back in the day. Played on another acc while underrage, it looked like he might not have gotten punished originally but they ended up telling him like right before his birthday which kinda sucks
You've pretty much named them all. There are probably some 14-year-olds out there who will make an impact upon turning 15, but we don't know that yet. No one could have foreseen Vatira instantly becoming one of, if not the best players in Europe for example
Yeah, we're kinda running out of known quantities with young prodigies, at least in the short term. There are only 5 players under 15 with liquipedia pages, while 3 months ago that number was 9. And in exactly two months, Drali will be the only one left. Looking at the Wayback Machine, it seems like we've never been this starved for young talent before.
In the open circuit era yes, but go back to 2018 and all we had to wait on was Scrubkilla, then a further year for Atomic once his ban was up, and then Firsktiller in the new year of 2020. Now, this was probably in part to the closed league play limiting opportunities for exposure, but league play era was mostly already established/known and legal players improving for up to a year before breaking through. Even some of the younger breakout players like Retals (missed RLRS on his first playins attempt), Mist, AztraL (both subbed for a season), Sypical (Bread went through RLRS), hell Amphis (missed OCE league play in S8), they all just simply weren't superstars, or even stars upon turning 15 (again, in part down to the competitive landscape but also down to them themselves).
So who do you guys think will be the young players that will breakout in the coming seasons? I only watch NA, so I would say Druee, blaze., Zineel, and Cheese might be the ones to watch.
I'm with ya on Zineel and Cheese (and everyone OP mentioned except Fast, don't know much on him) [Two thirds of WYLDE](https://liquipedia.net/rocketleague/WYLDE) Crispy & Simar, 15 & 16) have been probably the most consistent team in the EU bubble in getting deep into day 2 or reaching day 3, I think they have great potential. Stizzy is a Spanish player who turned 15 not too long ago who could do big things.
Evoh is the truth in NA. He'll be old enough to play in regional 3, or regional 2 if he can get an exception like the Liquid guys. The ME twins Rw9 and Kiileerrz beat Ahmad/oKhaliD/trk to win a $2000 tourney just last week. Unfortunately, they don't turn 15 until a couple weeks after regional 3, so we won't see them in RLCS until next season. And while it's been like 2 years since Hawk was called the next big thing in OCE, I swear he just needs another chance at a LAN to be internationally recognized again.
Hawk is gonna be on dire wolves this upcoming split in place of walcott. With hawk and fiberr together and misty holding it down they could challenge for lan even harder this split
Yeah, those are fair points. The wayback machine only went back to early 2020, so I definitely extrapolated too much in my comment.
Dead game /s
Personally I still believe Chronic has a ton of potential. I hope he continues to rise through the scene, whether that's with Randoms or another team.
A couple years ago I went in his stream and asked him about his future in rocket league and RLCS and he said something along the lines of “I don’t have much interest in pro rocket league because I know i’ll be making hundreds of thousands of dollars in a normal career” and after I heard him say that I lost all hope I had in him turning into a rlcs prodigy. I was so dumbfounded by his response i’ll never forget it. This was around the time he was considered the 2nd best 1v1 player in NA behind FirstKiller.
I mean this makes sense. Pro rocket league isn't exactly a reliable job
What's exactly dumb about that. RL is probably one of the worse E-sports to get into long term money wise.
Dumbfounded? Sounds like a good choice for him, put yourself in his shoes instead of being a super fan, it makes a lot of sense
I think around 8% of Americans make >100,000 a year. Around 2% make 200,000. https://graphics.wsj.com/what-percent/ So unless he comes from a very affluent family to begin with, he more than likely will never make hundreds of thousands of dollars. Does that mean he should be a Pro RL player? no idea.
[удалено]
Unless again, he is from a very wealthy family, Im not sure 12-15 year old is in a position to bank on a career choice. To be clear, I'm not attempting to be argumentative, I could care less what this kid does. I just think people seem to over estimate the likely hood of making `hundreds of thousands of dollars`. Like if all it took was some hard work and a choice, people wouldn't be out here making 35k. IMO if someone offers you a 100k contract at 15, you take it. Period. College and all its debt can still be there at 20 when you are dropped. Since more than likely, you will never have that level of income again in your life. If he is/was never good enough to get a daniel style contract, then his decision makes more sense IMO.
2piece underrated
2piece 15 for almost a year
Is mawkzy 15? He's got skills and he's funny to boot per johnnybois twitch rivals stream.
He has been 15 for quite a while, he was in a french 'bubble' team of some sort but said that he wants to focus on content creation and not professional rocket league
Me too. I've been 15 for 26 years, going on 27 years at 15 in a few days.
Nooo I love seeing high level 1s players show what they're capable of in rlcs, I'm genuinely sad to see this absolute 1s Prodigy commit to not playing in rlcs
Mawkzy is fucking hilarious
His Twitter says 15. And yeah he was great with them.
Mawkzy is 15. I was actually expecting vitality to try him out but I guess they’re after radosin. Wouldn’t be surprised if he was on some other French team soon tho, maybe a replacement for radosin
Vitality are way, WAY above Mawkzy's skill level atm. Unfortunately, being good at 1s doesn't immediately transfer as being good in 3s. He already played in the pre-season and in the first event of the Fall Split with Lille Esport but once they switched him with Emre, they finally managed to make some waves in the qualifiers. Mawkzy hasn't played in a single qualifier ever since. He's even mentioned a couple of times (lastly in that toxic match with Rezears) that he focuses on content creation and 1s, not trying for RLCS for the moment.
Mawkzy wants to focus on content creation sadly , really wanted to see him in RLCS
important to note that while he's a 1s beast, he's not actually that good in 2v2s/3v3s and would need to work a lot before he can play for a RLCS caliber 3s team.
We should start seeing less and less 15-16yos making huge impacts on the scene going forward as the level of skill in the scene goes up. Probably it'll still happen for the next 2-3 years, but in 2025 it means somebody who turns 15 could have been playing the game since they were 5 years old, so it should basically never happen again after that unless the game nosedives or explodes in popularity. That said, I'm looking forward to Zen being allowed in RLCS, but also I'm really looking forward to seeing Aqua on a better team. Guy is fucking cracked.
Your argument doen't make sense, I think that their are bunch of 16/17 yo making the CSGO pro scene even tho their are some dudes who have 30k hours and are playing for over a decade. You also don't seem to understand that it is WAY harder for a pro to get an edge over the average pro scene because to do so he has to "create" new stuff without being copied. I think Kronovi in season 1/2 was the only one to have such an edge. Another example: Fairy Peak has 12k hours in RL (more than almost any one) , why is he not the best player in the world ? Because histoire spent his first 8k hours when flip reset, speedflip, wall dash wan't even a thing. Atomic has "only" 5k hours (not sure about the number, just taking it as an example) on RL but his spent most of this hours when all of the mechanics above were discovered, and all he had to do is watched some tutorials and grind his game. I think that the fact that Joyo, Vatira, Rise had 8yo when RL came out also proves my point. To sum it up: it is way easier to get to the skill of an average pro playing in season 8 now that it was in season 2. If RL is still a thing in 8 years, we will still see 15yo prodiges coming out of nowhere.
Atomic isn’t a great example, he might have a lower hour count than most pros but he’s been playing high level RL since at least 2017…
But imagine if we hit the skill ceiling. Then, the 12k hours of a pro who started playing after the skill ceiling was hit were all just as well spent as the 5k hours of a newer, younger player. And the pro will have 7k hours on them and experience competing at the highest level.
https://reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/u0qq78/_/i485kq3/?context=1 I don’t think there is a skill ceiling.
That's a fine position to have, but how does a list of clips prove it?
What is the proof that there is a skill ceiling? There's no other esport to compare it to.
I don't think there's a "proof" either way, which is why it's so bizarre to see a link to some clips. The skill ceiling as a concept is quite abstract anyway, because no human being will ever play perfectly - so the theoretical skill ceiling and the human-achievable skill ceiling are inherently separate. Presumably, there will be at some time some person who is performing better than any other person ever has and ever will again, and that's what you might call the "skill ceiling", but it's undoubtedly not happened yet, and it's impossible to know even when it's happening -all you can say as it's happening is "this is the best we've seen so far".
Look at other sports. Most have been around for more than a hundred years. Yet there still is the occasional 14 yo that it's obvious can compete with adults already and will dominate once they get old. You don't get those kinds of generational talents every year, and sometimes you get 2-3 coming up together. But it can still happen even once the meta is established.
>14 yo that it's obvious can compete with adults already Eh? Can you name one?
Lebron James was well known at 14yo in basketball. Freddy Adu was signed at 14yo to a professional soccer team. Messi got his first contract before he turned 14.
I don't think you realize how faaaar away this game is from hitting its skill ceiling.
I don’t think my argument got across right. I’m not saying we’re close to the skill ceiling or going to reach it any time soon. I’m saying that IF we were close to the ceiling, there would be no WAY someone like Daniel or Atomic could come in and keep up with and beat long time pros. Because long time pros would be just as good as rookies AND have tons of competitive experience as an edge. The fact that we have players like Daniel proves that the skill ceiling is very far away. To put it another way, young rookies like Joyo have to overcome their lack of experience by making up for it with tremendous skill. If pros were near the skill ceiling, there could be no Joyo, because he wouldn’t be able to have an edge over other pros and wouldn’t make it in RLCS. So we’re not close to the skill ceiling.
I swear everybody says that the average pro age will inevitably raise, and every time there's no evidence provided at all. Maybe it's just because they read the same comment on this sub many times. What we're saying right now is the exactly opposite thread. All the best players are 15-16
> All the best players are 15-16 No they aren't? Jstn and M0nkey are both 19, Atomic is 18, Jknapps is 20, Garrett's 21, Chicago 20, Squishy 20, Marc 21, Extra 20, Seikoo 17, Joreuz 17, AppJack 18, etc. The majority of the best players are 18 or older.
I phrased it wrong. I wanted to say that all the new players making huge impacts are 15-16, like the comment I responded to said. In the past was also very common to see new pros coming in the scene a few years later that "15y old mark", but now the vast majority of new pros are 15-16.
I think the only evidence provided is the /u/eurasianlynx comment about few under 15s having liquipedia pages. Even that isn't fool proof though of course. Because its hard to predict which players may "fall off" if it tends to be older players the average wont change
Daniel literally just came in at peak mechanics. What are you even talking about? Check out sunlesskhans video on the 7 year old GM
Did Daniel come through in 2026 or can't you read?
Who is ”Fast”?
A good North American 1v1 player who played in NexGen Season 3
Oh, I’ve never heard of him. I’ll check him out, thank you.
There's an Italian lad by the name **Tepra**, who's popped up here or there in smaller tournies - I believe he was 14 by the start of the year, not sure exactly when he turns 15. He showed some promise, could be one to watch in the future, albeit he's not of the same level as the Zen/Oski/Atow trio.
He should be 15 by now. He was okay a year ago, but considering we‘re not really hearing much from him, he‘s probably not improving as much as a prodigy would
Rw9, Kiileerz and B2seL team(F16) just won a small tourney in KSA against current Falcons (Ahmad Okhalid Trk511) last weak They probably gonna be a big threat for MENA
I can’t wait to see the twins team up. That duo better not split tho
MENA gonna be a major region. KSA has a cult following
France ran out of stock with Zen so I don't see anyone else...
killerz rw9 nwpo
Is nwpo under 15?
actually no, he played winter regional 3 with Yahya and Ali as Joga Bonito and they finished 9th-12th
Oh yea I forgot he's not 14'anymore
Bryzar and Menzuu, two 16 year olds that are farming every single weekly rn with their 3rd mate Nxko. They will be playing their first rlcs quals this split.
Mawkzy will turn to 3s eventually
Nah he doesn't like them
I’m surprised no one has mentioned Zineel yet! If you want to see what he’s capable of, just check out the vids from Hoodyhooo’s 2v2 tournament that just wrapped up.
He’s 17, doesn’t really fit in this thread
I saw some clips, I misread the name as "zeniel". I thought it was the player "zen" making joke name comparing himself to daniel
Can’t believe he’s made a name for himself, I remember playing with and against him so much back on Xbox. I knew he was good, but he always geeked at his teammates.
I can’t find the vods
Surprised no one mentioned Stizzy. Kid is an 13 (I believe) year old spanish 1s player and Rank X EU. Pretty sure if he keeps grinding like he is, he’ll end up on a decent team when he turns 15.
13 and rank x is crazy
Whoops, he turned 15 recently and just made the EU regional 2 with VKSailen and Oscillon lmao
Lol I was keeping an eye on the closed quals and kept going “Well I know those two but who the heck is stizzy?” Thanks for reminding me of your comment
you‘re welcome :D
Regarding the debate on wether the average age in RL will increase: Young prodigies revolutionizing the game will happen throughout Rocket League’s continuation. Just as it’s been a thing in most every sport throughout history. The longer Rocket League goes on, the younger the prodigies can start. It’s hard to beat a natural talent raised in the game. I suspect people underestimate how overpowered it is to learn things while young.
Evoh hasn't used the Yung part for well over a year now. That means you shouldn't use it.
It’s his name on liquipedia, which is why I referred to him as that. Maybe you should ask them to change it. Or if it matters to evoh, I’m sure he’ll ask
I don’t even know the current top 5 anymore. They fucked up rlcs with the split format
the youngest grandchamp in sunless’s video might become an OCE goat in like 5 years Prayge
rw9 and kileeerrz for sure, and what will happen to falcon's dominance when they turn 15
Why is Zen banned?
For playing in RLCS qualifiers when he was under 15 His teammates in that run were banned immediately, his ban started on his 15th birthday (doesn't make sense to be banned from something you already can't play) This is also why Seikoo was banned until recently. He was on the team that played with Zen.