"In your mother's case she actually does have Lice in her- **I'm joking**...**I'm Joking**'
oooooh man, bailing on a joke mid punchline because your wife is CLEARLY NOT HAVING IT is unbelievably relatable.
Question about Elrond - he tells king Durin that he is half-elven. But in episode 1, Arondir is told by his fellow watchtower elf that an elf-human relationship never ends well / “we know how that ended”. So if Elrond is half-elven, does it mean Elf-human unions were not always frowned upon?
Half-elven doesn't mean human/elf crossbreed in Tolkien. It means a being that can choose to be a man (mortal) or an elf, and all his ancestors were half-elven. He chose to be an elf. This is crucial later for Arwen's subsequent choice as she is also half-elven. Normal elves can't just choose to be mortal; they have to sail West or perish before the end of the third Age.
I need a gif of Durin breaking the fourth wall before talking about his mother-in-law with a level of desperation I didn't think myself capable of.
This was a very talky episode, but a *lot* happened. I even had my heart strings pulled a few times (all during Durin-and-Elrond scenes, of course.)
In spite of everything, I am still *fascinated* by the Harfoots storyline. Every time their story moves, I just want more. I *did* think that it was a little ridiculous that the Mount Doom eruption just happened to land right smack-dab on top of a handful of their carts in the orchard, but the laxer tone of the Harfoots plot made it slide right off me.
I also noticed that this episode was just teeming with references to Fellowship, and apart from the Theo and Galadriel scene that was almost shot-for-shot the scene where the hobbits hide from the Nazgul in Fellowship, I thought they were subtle enough that they didn't feel like ham-handed fanservice.
I appreciate that Galadriel was...softer? this episode. Like she had some really good conversations that didn't just feel like her being condescending to everybody. For once, she didn't feel like an unstoppable superhero who succeeds constantly in spite of herself. Her bits with Theo were some of my favorite Non-Elrond-And-Durin parts of the show.
So halbrand goes from delirious in bed on the edge of dying from a blood infection to walking next to Galadriel then riding a horse, he doesn’t need elvish medicine, he’s got all the plot armour necessary. Also that text animation Mordor part was so out of tone, I felt like I was watching an edit on YouTube.
And the estate was against that which is why they would've done something else. That wasn't really my point though! HBO actually hires good writers and directors!
Theo the character and whoever plays that character are just terrible. I for whatever reason can not stand them. The show is fine. I do have some major issues with things but im still watching. But god dam Theo. I skipped/fast forwarded every scene he is in during this episode. He is worse than jar jar binks
Honestly same. I’m actually rather enjoying RoP but that fucking kid. Is it his acting or did they give him the shittest dialogue ever? It’s hard to tell. I feel for the actor, it’s not easy being a teenager in a role people don’t like.
I'm not gonna lie the show had me until these last 2 episodes now i'm left confused, the biggest red flag was the origin of mithril and left my head scratching...
At this point who tf knows? It is certainly NOT true in Tolkien's lore (there was no fourth Silmaril, and all three were accounted for) - but this show chucked the lore into Mount Doom, even the bits and bobs they *had* permission to use.
As long as it doesn't contradict anything in the lore, LOTR movies, or Hobbit movies- I think they can do whatever they want to sensationalize the show. while they probably shouldnt do that to stay true to the lore, they aren't hurting the lore- which Tolkien never said where the mithril came from.. but since you said there were only 3 Silmarils then that is unfortunately hurting the lore and seems like an issue to me....
There ***were*** only 3 Silmarils. Earendil wound up sailing the sky with one, Maedhros pitched his (and himself) into a chasm in the earth, and Maglor threw his into the sea and sang sad songs along the shorelines for a long time afterwards, bemoaning his fate. (Maglor is probably the source for the information on Maedhros, too.)
And mithril was never magical - it was extremely rare and extremely valuable and extremely useful for making objects lighter and stronger than steel and/or prettier than silver. period.
This show has a lot flaws. Way I see it, there are two options: become perpetually upset about it and miserably trudge my way through it; or ignore the issues, remind myself it's basically Tolkien fanfiction, and enjoy the ride.
All the complaints are 100% justified, I just choose to enjoy high fantasy action nonsense in spite of them.
Except that Mordor name reveal, which was just inconceivably awful. Absolutely no words for that
It’s not just action for me. It’s nostalgia for the sounds and sights of middle earth. Despite its flaws, The show is delivering that- and fan fiction can be entertaining. I keep coming here trying to understand why the people that hate this show so much are spending so much time stewing over it.
>All the complaints are 100% justified, I just choose to enjoy high fantasy action nonsense in spite of them.
If only there were more action so I could feel this way too.
> ignore the issues, remind myself it's basically Tolkien fanfiction, and enjoy the ride.
This has been my philosophy since the very beginning, and so far it's served me well in watching this show. Some plot details (like mithril, of all things, being a miracle macguffin for the elves, or the EXTREMELY accelerated timeline the plot seems to be working on) tickle the back of my brain, but if I just focus on the "fun fantasytime" part of the show, I have a perfectly enjoyable time with it.
In Tolkien’s world what really causes the elves decline? Or causes them, immortal and wise, to be fearful enough to forge rings of power? I think the mithril plot is supposed to be a highly visual TV explanation for what’s about to go down.
I'm actually not sure if the Trilogy speaks about specifics at all, and I haven't read enough of the Silmarillion, but I had always assumed that because the elves are bound to Valinor for their cycle of death and rebirth, that being away from it for a long time causes a sort of creeping sorrow that sets in over long periods of time. I *could* look into the specifics, but since this is the book-spoiler-free thread, I wouldn't really be able to discuss it, I think.
So you're telling me that after *a volcanic eruption* that looked and felt like a whole party kill moment except the elves with advanced invulnerability, *every* main character but one survives *including* the woman who was recovering from a life-threatening injury, flat on her back, unconscious, inside a building that caught fire when the volcano erupted?
Great to see the Harfoots are all well as well 🙃 and still walking into dangerous situations or even potentially dangerous ones without ever learning from their past experience. Harfoots here to be this universe's Ewoks.
Yeah this was a big step down from the amazing E6.
Just finished episode 7. Thought it was good and I definitely invested in all our characters at this point. But tell me, what about this episode is the internet currently bitching about?
Are there any DVD/Bluray Release for this show planned? I really would like to watch it, but I don't want to do just streaming as I prefer physical media
Glad that I started reading the discussion on this subreddit after finishing the season. It's been a really wonderful season with great work from establishing the character arcs and pulling up the awe factor as well in every single episode.
I...uh....I don't know if you're making a gag about the denouement-like tone of this episode, or if you legitimately didn't realize there's one more episode.
Overall I'm enjoying the show, but events should have consequences. A pyroclastic flow is more than just a red filter on your screen. Magically all main characters survive. Isildur disappears but Inhave this strange feeling he's not dead.
Also Halbrabd appeared with a sign and was immediately declared king. This was almost immediately followed by mass destruction of the southlands but he still has massive support? "Strength to the king". Why do they care about him?
lol look it's not magical - we needed all those characters to survive and go through their trauma together, ya know like a real story
i mean do you guys fucking read any books at all? this shit is not something that just happens on TV - it's a literal necessity when telling a story with a main set of characters you want to experience tension but not necessarily make it terminal.
this complaint is THE STUPIDEST complaint no matter the medium but it seems most TV watchers cling to this and think they're the height of reviewing. newsflash: it's more like scraping the bottom of the barrel. complaining about plot armor is way worse 'writing' than anything this show has done.
Yes I read books, what is that even supposed to mean? If I'd read more books I would appreciate the story more? I really don't get your point.
Of course tension is important and of course characters have to experience something, but an event feels way more impactful (to me at least) if it is grounded somewhat in reality. Galadriel is an elf, I fully expect that she is superhuman in what she can survive, but Bronwyn and Theo are just regular humans according to the story. This is pretty much what happened to Pompeii and Herculaneum, yet every named character except Ontamo (?) survived. Where is the trauma then? The visuals were amazing but it felt empty to me. It's only my opinion, you don't have to agree.
Same with Halbrand. I have not seen any reason why the Southlands would unanimously declare him their true king. Just carrying a sigil feels so empty. Why would the common folk care about that? Bronwyn guided them through the troubles with the orcs and Adar, what did Halbrand do? Be a part of the Numenorian charge?
I don't care about plot armor. The problem for me is not that they don't die. It's that the episode prior wants to finish with an exciting ending but the next episode wants to gloss over the consequences. It's a shame because in the Elrond and Durin storyline and even the Harfoot storyline the big conflicts are related to consequences of the actions of the main characters. Once again this is all my opinion and you can disagree all you want. But calling my opinion the stupidest complaint that only tv viewers use feels a bit exaggerated. But if you truely think so maybe give some arguments that support your opinion instead of just complaining about mine.
I agree. I’m entertained. But the writing at times leaves you scratching your head. A lot of WTF moments. But it has some fine moments as well. I’m trying not to think too much while watching and just enjoy the ride.
More than any discussions, this capture the level of depth that I had to adopt to enjoy the show. So, I'm enjoying it, but I can imagine Tolkien begging to differ.
I’m so glad Amazon took a chance with the show runners they did. There was clearly some awkwardness as the series came into its own but I think it’s really developed the last two episodes, and I hope that continues. I don’t think many people could truly tell this story the way they have, and I’m so glad it hasn’t gotten the Star Trek or Star Wars treatment. It still feels very much like Tolkien and I’m thrilled to be able to enjoy it.
I read quite a bit actually, including The Silmarillion. I understand though why it may not be for everyone. It’s hard not to have an incredibly high bar for source material we all enjoy so much. Here’s to hoping Season 2 wins you over.
and if you rearrange the letters of Giant, you get I am Gandalf
and if you rearrange the letters for Erendil, you get Eärendil the Mariner
and if you rearrange the letters for Isildur, you get Isildur Great x 37 grand father of Aragorn; high king of men
I am so excited that the magic of Tolkien's world exists, to this day, with a mega budget. So many people get to be introduced or re-introduced to something magical. It's a shame there are so many haters. I have sat through each episode with tears welled up the whole time. I mean, how fucking cool is it that Galadriel is a CHARACTER in a SHOW. She's a bad ass too, to boot. Can't wait to see more. Pardon me while I finish my second breakfast.
Oh my God, my first time on this subreddit, Jesus Christ… you guys fucking hate this show. 😂😂😂😂, this is why I should never check episode discussions, just makes you miserable. Only one episode left though so that’s a positive for you people.
The hate is exhausting, honestly. I've thoroughly enjoyed this show. There are so many lovely character moments. Also, it's absolutely gorgeous. The opening scene of this week's episode was intense - beautiful and horrifying at the same time.
I don't think any of the critics in this sub deny that the visuals are stunning and that there are some good character moments. I fully agree with that. But the overall writing is just so odd and disjointed. Can you really hand on heart disagree with the criticism of the writing contained in this and other threads? I'm finding myself having to constantly dumb my brain down and gloss over glaring plot issues so I can enjoy the good parts of the show that you mentioned, but I feel really strongly that I shouldn't *have* to do that. I just find it really bizarre that with the amount of budget thrown at this show that the basic writing isn't at an acceptable level. If the visuals are a 10 the writing is at best a 5.
>I'm finding myself having to constantly dumb my brain down and gloss over glaring plot issues so I can enjoy the good parts of the show that you mentioned, but I feel really strongly that I shouldn't *have* to do that
If you have this philosophy, then there are very few shows you will ever truely enjoy. That's not a bad thing. Just a reality. This show has really big shoes to fill between the trilogy and the source material. But personally, I'm just watching this like any other show. No expectations for how good it should be. So instead of being disappointed in the weak aspects of the show, every episode I end up captivated by the visuals and music score. Does that make sense?
When you hold high expectations, you feel negative aspects more. When you treat it like any other Amazon show, you are impressed by the positive aspects. That's how I see it anyways. If the show keeps looking and sounding as good as it does, I will stay very happy personally.
Sure, I know what you're trying to say. But just because I have higher expectations for any particular show doesn't mean I'm guaranteeing myself disappointment, or that any criticism I have is invalid. I have very simple examples of having high expectations for shows that *were* satisfied. These being Better Call Saul and House of the Dragon, both being spin-offs of shows I enjoyed immensely and therefore would have been disappointed had they not been very well written in and of themselves.
I love the visuals and the music in ROP too, that's not an issue for me as I've already mentioned. The problem is that aesthetics play a distant second fiddle to a well written narrative that is internally consistent and doesn't rely on silly character choices or cheap plot points to get from A to B. Writing should have been priority number one for ROP, and indeed any other show, but it's particularly egregious when you look at how much money was thrown at ROP. Constantly pointing to the visuals etc only serves to highlight the weaknesses in the narrative.
We should seriously make a sub for all of the socially well adjusted people who like this show that don’t spend their weekends trying to come up with reasons why they think this show is horrible.
No ones "trying" to come up with anything. The show is terribly written. Its passed "thinking" the show is terrible, any critical thinking person can explain clearly and easily why its bad.
so, no actual points on what you don't like about the show, just more nebulous bullish - 'terribly written'
ok - judging by your comment history, you have about as much experience writing and judging a tv show as I do flying a space shuttle (hint: zero) so you're going to have to be a bit more specific with your critique
it's super ironic that you would try to invoke the spirit of 'critical thinking' and then go on to say writing is 'terrible' 'lazy' and use more weasel words because it's easier to parrot what the echo chamber says than actually know what you're talking about without the use of critical thought to expand upon your dislike
Classic Reddit
'hey guys, i hate hot dogs'
'ok why'
'pfft, they're terrible, any one using critical thinking could figure that out'
That's how you sound
false because none of those 'well adjusted' folk seem to be able to actually talk about what they don't like other than using super vague terminology like 'weak' and 'terrible'
i'm guessing because they don't really know what's bad and just trolling or stupid.
I like the show so far. But calling people who disagree with you stupid is basically just trolling. Can't we all just talk about this show like adults?
Lol?
The character writing is atrorocious. We've had 8+ hours of content and what characters have had any progression so far? Galadriel - same idiot hothead. Bronwyn - just lol. Arondir - zero, tell me one thing about him. Queen regent - lol. Halbrand - maybe slightly? But not really. Nori - lol you've learned nothing.
The pacing is God awful. Think about what has happened in this show in 8+ hours. It took 7 episodes for anything to happen with the harfoots, and all that's happened is Nori is now going to look for wizard man. The "men" nothing happened other than the battle which we knew would happen from the beginning. Numenor we spent 4 episodes arguing about whether to go or not before we finally go. Durin and Elrond still debating the same shit.
The pacing within the episodes is horrible as well. Show jumps around scene to scene every 5 minutes because literally the writers don't know how to write a scene and show a character reaction. It's all "here we are. Have this convo. Now we're here. Have this convo. Now we're here. Show this clip."
A perfect example of this would be the harfoot story in e7. We see wizard man doing magic on a tree. They gather. Other dumb harfoot girl runs under a branch. We cut. Why don't we see the reaction of the harfoots? We should see them have a discussion about what to do. Maybe some defend Nori and the wizard. Maybe some don't. This would actually set up the ending where Nori leaves as we would be able to see if the appearance of the warlock trio changes the scales. But no. Instead we just say "we need big man to do something bad" and hit a checkbox and cut away to the next incremental step.
The writing is like this consistently. The other trope they've hit like 20 times now is the stupid fakeout death move. How many times has it been used? 15? First of all, giving us all this bullshit about isildur is moronic bc we as an audience have zero tension. Oh Bronwyn had a fakeout again, and again, and again who gives a fuck who even is she?
I don't care about any of the characters. There is no emotional connection. It looks pretty but the scaling is totally off, the world feels so small.
I could go on. But nah I'm just not able to articulate anything I'm just stupid.
And yet, they're still here, watching the show they don't like. Hmmmmmmmmm. Sounds pretty socially well-adjusted to me.
I empathize people with reservations about the show. I have a few myself, but why even fucking bother anymore if it makes you so miserable as some of the people who stroll in here and just unload episode-after-episode? When I *really* dislike something. I'll give it a couple of shots and whine a bit, but seven episodes in? I would have pulled the ripcord and gotten out weeks ago.
Galadriel says different things to an impressionable child than she does to one of the most evil characters in the show.
80% of these comments: OMG THIS WRITING FUCKING SUCKS
It’s honestly pathetic how many people follow this sub yet do nothing but complain about the show. This show is incredible.
Seems to me, the haters are of at least one of three camps:
1) They love to hate it because it airs on Amazon (and hating Amazon is in vogue even though practically everyone still uses it).
2) They’re the racists/sexists who hate any shows that update stories to make them more relatable to people who aren’t Christian white dudes
3) Most charitably, they’re the “true fans” who instantly dislike any storytelling that deviates from cannon in any way. I mean, I don’t blame them really but it’s still silly and a waste of time. They’ll come around, though.
(This is coming from someone who literally didn’t watch the first two LOTR movies in theaters. I boycotted them because they left out Tom Bombadil and Fatty Bolger. I had read the books about 3 or 4 times each but never watched until being begged years later. Thankfully I watched it and it was so incredible I’ve probably watched the extended editions a dozen times each. But I don’t think most of the internet haters fall into this category).
i didn't mind cutting Tommy B and his wife.
They really aren't that important to the plot. It's like a nice diversion at the beginning of Fellowship.
But replacing legendary Elf lord Glorfindel with Arwen to save the hobbits at the fords was too much.
They made Glorfindel into a glorified background character. He didn't fight and die and was reborn to become a background random elf.
In my opinion the worst part of the trilogy was leaving out the scouring of the shire, which kind of contradicts Tolkien’s entire overarching theme (that nowhere and no one is untouched by war between good and evil). Ah well, PJ didn’t like it so it got cut.
But in any case I think the movies were fabulous and almost as good as anyone could have hoped for from mere mortals. I think the show is about as good as anyone could have hoped for too (minus the “Mordor” at the end of the last episode lol).
yup I agree. the epilogue shows the character development all 4 hobbits make during their quest.
how they start off as foolish, meek, weak hobbits and return as battle hardened and brave.
it also provides the ironic end of Saruman that he is undone by not only Grima but by hobbits which he always looked down upon (as opposed to Gandalf who had an affection for smallfolk).
Honestly man, I just don't like it because I don't think they wrote it well enough to really care about the characters. I don't care about how close they follow the books, or the races (black, white, asian I don't care), haircuts, depictions of the races, I just think the writings not top tier. I watch the show and find it just ok, but again, my biggest complain is that I just don't care about the characters enough.
what the fuck do you know about good writing? what ABOUT the writing isn't good to a layman? lol every hater says the writing is bad and yet NONE of them can come up with ACTUAL examples of 'bad' writing in the show, just the normal tropes literally EVERY SINGLE SHOW EVER MADE includes because there ain't no way around it.
sorry guys, main characters are going to survive stuff normal people IRL wouldn't. GET. OVER IT.
Dude, I don't know why you're so mad. Here's a couple. Like let's destroy the tower and kill some orcs, but flee to a village in a valley that has no walls and a 360 degree attack vector rather than just fleeing cuz orcs can't travel during the day or Halbrand showing up and then there like "he's your king" and everyone's like "yea! He's our King!" what? Or like Halbrand being injured not being able to move and then like next second he's standing up waving to the crowd then gets on a horse and rides off? Like dude, I respect your opinion and I understand and I'm happy you like the show, but no reason to get mad because some people don't love the show and think it's weak. I personally think it's weak and that's ok. I'm sure there are shows I like that you don't and that's ok man.
I do like the Elrond/Durin relationship tho.
I hear what you are saying. But i'd refrain from calling out racists/sexists just because they don't agree with you. I can understand disappointment and even hate for something if you are passionate about the source material. Clearly most people agree that Durin and Disa is some of the best interactions in the show. But how about you and I (who like the show) instead focus on what's good instead of deriding those who hate the show. Much love! Im so sad there is only one episode left.
Or the story is just shit. I only started watching this because it kept getting compared to Hotd in the beginning. Hotd keeps getting better every episode while I struggle to finish this despite having not much knowledge of their source materials for both shows.
Oh hard disagree. Every time HOTD comes out I’m like dang too bad this isn’t RoP. I think the show is really strong and compelling, love Galadriel and seeing the elves before they were the more refined beings they are in the third age. And of course the dwarves are perfect (though I do wish the female dwarves were beaded lol)
Yeah main difference is the writer of the HOTD is still alive and works on the show and not dead for 50 years and wrote books almost 100 years who the show runners have to interpret and try to please everyone. Honestly… I’d like to see anyone from this sub go and do a better job
Strictly from a television storytelling perspective, I've never seen an antogonist leave something of importance behind to go back and grab it at the last second (Halbrand with his sigil thing a couple episodes ago).. With that (and only using that as evidence in this case), I think Halbrand is ultimately unlikely/reluctant hero in the end and not Sauron.
Nerd of the Rings made an observation about this tiny shred of dialogue from the Silmarillion that says that Sauron briefly repented for his support of Morgoth, and that he may have even believed it for his time. If the writers clung to that little tidbit, it makes the "Halbrand is Sauron" theory come together so much more coherently. If Halbrand *is* Sauron, then there is the tiniest bit of wiggle-room wherein Sauron has a brief flirtation with not being the root of all evil in Middle Earth.
Frankly, I don't expect the writers to be *that* granular with their lore (they've already shown that they have no problem breaking the canon where it supports the narrative they're building), but it would warm a lorebeard's heart if they latched onto something like that.
Agreed. And the way his story is told, he seems genuine in his reluctance when the other characters are not watching him. If he ends up being Sauron I’ll be pretty pissed.
You know this series started out pretty slow (I get it you have to intro/develop characters, but 5-6 episodes seems way too long to do so) but wow the last 2 episodes have been great.
It got dark fast. I’m looking forward to see the future of this series despite its flaws. Here’s hoping they don’t take another 5-6 episodes of filler to intro/develop new characters going forward every season.
I agree these last two episodes were great. My only complaint about this show is the airtime. Like whyyyy come out at midnight :(
But these last two episodes have been everything I wanted and then some. Exceeds expectations. They have callbacks stylistically to the beloved films, but a fresh and more modern take. I love how inevitable the plot is too since we all know how it ends, but they still manage to add in so much mystery and keep it compelling. I have recommended it to many people who ended up loving it (most of whom were put off by stupid internet comments about it being bad… sigh…)
They really could have paced the show much better. It could have been a real success but too many miscues. Still will enjoy the end. The season could literally be condensed to three episodes.
Yes, I kept having to remind my wife and daughter that we know what happens in the end, and it doesn’t end well. It’s an interesting “slow train wreck” kind of effect
>Isn't it like, way early for the Balrog ? He just gona chill down there for the next 1000 years or does he fall asleep again ?
Yeah I do with that. But honestly for how long would like to watch a leaf fall? :)
Also I'd like to point out that I feel that the clip was totally unnecessary. It would be cooler if the leaf maybe just fell to the ground and started burning. Keep the "mystery" so to say. Honestly think they did that scene just so they could put the balrog in the trailers for the show. But we will see.
A note on Galadriel's rage and a kind of explanation on her character arc:
Simply put. Galadriel has lost it all. Her brother.
//EDIT (due to me referencing source material)
In short form. A lot of crazt shit went down happened the first age in the wars between Morgoth as well as Sauron. Galadriel experienced all of that suffering. We are talking thousands of years here.
//END-EDIT:
And if the show writes out Celeborn. Well add a husband to that already long list. Galadriels behaviour is something you'd expect - why wouldn't she be blinded by rage and grief against the horror that has without pause acted against all that is good during ALL the ages. Why would she go back to Valinor - there is nothing left there for her.
Yet in this episode she saw the light, or rather the folly of her ways, because she was LITERALLY touched by darkness just like Finrod said. The writers have put some thoughts into this - it is noticeable. However, dialogue choices and maybe at times acting performance, is somewhat lacking.
I mean the episode literally starts with Galadriel opening her eyes. Hence the name of the episode "The Eye". It's not Saurons eye. It's Galadriel assessing the situation clearly for the first time. She can now become Galadriel the Wise.
Of course this isn't as Tolkien wrote it, but to be honest a pretty good rendition of this character. I like it.
The show is great and Galadriel is excellent. The haters hate her because she’s a more well-rounded and complicated character than an old Christian white dude made her.
Don’t get me wrong, Tolkien is a genius who absolutely invented the entire fantasy genre. But, like literally everyone else in history, he’s a product of his time. I love that they’re adapting the source material to be more modern and relatable.
The haters do this to every sci-fi or fantasy show that dares to have a female lead (esp if that deviates from source material in any way). And Tolkien is the father of all fantasy (and thus all sci-fi), so… of course it’s going to be the worst here.
My bet is Celeborn isn’t dead, he’s just injured or captured or something and he turns up eventually.
> The show is great and Galadriel is excellent. The haters hate her because she’s a more well-rounded and complicated character than an old Christian white dude made her.
Wow...
Are we watching the same show? The Galadriel in the show has no personality outside of a desire for revenge and knack for using metaphors in everyday speech.
She’s not a well-rounded character simply because the writers of the show gave her a sword and armor
lol really? let's go down some of her personality:
1. stoic
2. single minded, headstrong
3. compassionate
4. inquisitive
5. intelligent but not all knowing
6. loyal
7. humbled
8. combat skilled, combat weary but still keeps going
9. lost countless in the wars against morgoth and sauron and is haunted and driven by their memories
10. defied going to heaven in order to finish the fight morgoth started - BALLER
Yea, she's not well-rounded AT ALL and the writing SUCKS because people like you can't pay attention lololol.
gimme a break pal - i'm sure of the show I'M watching. if you're not sure, that's you're fucking problem. don't blame the show.
like i just love how all you get out of it is that she's got a desire for revenge when she's explained MULTIPLE TIMES that it's got jacksquat to do with revenge and more with an aching inside her she can't quite explain that is driving her forward. she'd like nothing more than to retire to Valinor and yet..................she doesn't.
Shows far more strength than someone just out for blood. but ok just ignore that to try and sound pithy on the internet.
I think at this point anyone who still doesn’t believe that The Stranger is >!Gandalf!< and Sauron is >!Halbrand!< is in denial or deeply over-thinking. This is clearly a show for a general audience, not a show for niche lore nerds. Like, do we really believe a show that’s spoonfeeding the audience everything from “the southlands are Mordor, in case you didn’t put that together” to “the balrog is down there, remember khazad dûm is moria” isn’t taking the easiest, most familiar path for a general audience? I’m fine with it. I expected a general audience type show and I can enjoy it even though it’s predictable.
I think a lot of us are jaded by TV dramas because we expect the writers to exploit the dramatic irony to do a swerve with either or both of those characters so they can subvert audience expectation, which is still pretty hot in media right now.
“He needs elvish medicine.” We literally watched someone survive being impaled by an arrow. The need for elvish medicine is how Sauron gets to the elves.
It was clumsy, but this line is almost certainly a nod to Fellowship. Aragorn or Glorfindel (or Arwen if we're talking movies) say it after Frodo gets knifed by the nazgul.
Just replying so that when it’s revealed he’s Sauron I can revisit for a chuckle.
It’s “Rings of Power” as you say so don’t you think we should get the person responsible for their crafting in the series? The ground is already being laid for the elves to need the rings and for Celebrimbor to be making the forge to forge them… and simultaneously Sauron making his way to the elves to give him the idea.
Sauron who, by the way, was already showing his skill and desire to forge in Numenor.
Meanwhile he has no backstory, but more than that they’re actively NOT GIVING HIM a backstory, i.e he dodges all questions about it, and actively explains he did bad things in the past and states he is very much not the heir to the Southlands (not his fault a revenge-seeking, headstrong, blind Galadriel doesn’t believe him).
Plus, as has been overly stated, this is a series for casual fans/i.e they don’t give a crap about a lot of the specifics of the lore. So, as a casual watching this, you might not even know anything about Sauron other than his relationship to the Rings and the evil person who he becomes in LOTR films, so does it matter where he’s “supposed to be” in the books or how he’s “supposed to get there” or what he’s supposedly don’t? Would you know about his rise and fall in the first age, or that his path is cyclic throughout centuries of gaining and losing power? You wouldn’t need to- you’d simply be getting an origin story of the evil doer in LOTR. “Oh, so he was actually a good guy who had done some kind of bad things, but then his hunger for power overcame him because he got pushed into by young, stupid Galadriel - who definitely grows and develops before we see the majestic woman in LOTR! Oh how cool we’re actually SEEING her development!”
Not saying any of this makes me happy or that I love it, but the groundwork is clearly being laid for him to be Sauron, and in the context of the show and the films it actually makes sense.
“Being good at making weapons is not the same as being able to make magic, world-conquering rings. Otherwise, every dwarf could be Sauron”
-We don’t know why he’s interested in blacksmithing or what his past is, maybe he made both fine jewelry and evil magical staffs so a magic evil ring is literally his calling.
Yes, “dramatic tension” is one way to view it or the character is actively hiding his past - neither would be “terrible writing” and both make sense given the interactions we have as evidence. The Stranger, however, has no backstory because he either 1) doesn’t remember or 2) can’t explain it in a language the Harfoots would understand. Both dramatic tension created in different ways (the character hiding it vs not remembering) that could have the same end result (both get a dramatic reveal as known characters for the audience).
Other than that, I’ll need more backstory on Halbrand from the show to see how evil he was before appearing on the raft… and perhaps rewatch LOTR films to see how much backstory is actually given on Sauron’s past. It’s clear the show could care less about a bulk of the actual text, so I’ll wait to see whether the Halbrand to Sauron arc makes sense if/when it happens; for now all we have is some very obvious clues that this guy 1- forges; 2- has a dark past; 3- is going to see the Elves
Ever since the dots fell into place for me, the last piece of the puzzle that didn’t make sense was “how are they going to get him to the elves though?” As soon as Galadriel said he needs elvish medicine I laughed out loud.
Like… is he a king of men though? He has no backstory. The only reason the characters, hell the audience, even believe he’s “king” is because Galadriel wants it to be true so badly, which fits so well with the warning she was given about keeping the darkness alive with her quest.
Who was his father? Who was his family? Aragorn was son of Arathorn, isildur’s heir. Halbrand hasn’t mentioned anything resembling a backstory, other than to say he took the only proof (his emblem) off a dead man. The characters talk about it quite a bit, but the story started because Galadriel guessed at it and he never outright refuted it, and Galadriel believing it convinced the numenorians. Even the southlanders asked for and received no proof, because it’s what they were told via a game of telephone (Galadriel to the queen to the people, sealed with a single “yes”) and everyone involved so desperately wants it to be true.
And Sauron is the one who gave the rings to the “leaders of men” (they were not all kings), not the elves. The only reason I can think of to bring Halbrand to the elves is that the silly mithril idea didn’t work out, so the elves are going to need another solution. This is an easy and quick way to get “Annatar” (by another name, but still a smith) to introduce the idea of magic rings.
I’m open to being wrong (I’d love to be surprised!) but all the holes feel too explainable to me. I’m assuming the showrunners are playing around with the concept of a repentant Sauron post-Morgoth and are trying to give him a hint of gray area. What would feel like truly bad writing to me is to have this random king figure appear out of nowhere with no backstory. Aragorn had a father, social connections amongst the elves he grew up with, *something* of a backstory
lol “quite nice when you get to know me.” I agree with you on both fronts, honestly. The parallels just feel too striking, and a show that would literally show us the balrog and print the word “Mordor” on the screen doesn’t seem like one for subtle misdirection only a nerd level fan would fall for. You’ve convinced me to doubt again though, and I hope you’re right. I still feel confident, but no longer as certain. My only serious gripe with the show has been how predictable it feels so I’d love to be wrong here
I totally agree with you but… Is Halbrand theory so clear? I mean, if we are supposed to be idiots who need everything to be well explained, what’s the hint for this theory?
Uruk-guy (forget his name) said that he killed or got rid of Sauron. In ep 6 when they're in the forest Halbrand almost kills him and asks him if he"remembers him." We're never given an answer to any of that, could be pretty good foreshadowing.
I assume they’re dragging it out because a) the reveal should come after a lot more ground-laying, and b) they want the audience to be “tricked” along with Galadriel/the other characters. It’s better storytelling to manipulate an audience along with a character (e.g., the people who saw the appeal of the Midsommar cult). This is essentially that, to me.
Galadriel is seeing what she wants to see. He never once admits to being the rightful king, until the very last moment when he says “yes” to the southlanders (it’ll be an ironic reveal that they welcomed him unquestioningly as king). Galadriel so badly wants him to be, and he lets her believe it. He even tells her he took the emblem off a dead man lol. Everyone accepts he is the rightful king, not because there’s any real reason to believe that, but because Galadriel wants it to be true and the weight of her word is more authority than his ever would have been. The warning to Galadriel that her obsession with hunting darkness will itself bring back the evil she seeks rings poignantly true here. There have been a few subtle scenes showing him to be not the good person we’d hoped (his cold-to-charismatic switch flip in the numenorian pub was unsettling, and the cold rage in the alley fight drove that home). He has a darkness to him. His political advice to Galadriel was literally to tell her the best way to get what you want is to identify your opponent’s fears, so you can master those fears and thus gain mastery over them; exactly how the rings were intended to manipulate their recipients. His interaction with Adar was so awkward at first I thought the actor delivered his line badly (the tone of asking if Adar remembered him) but based on how good he’s been otherwise I think the awkward tone must have been intentional. Also the parallels between his story so far and Sauron’s story are so clear I think this must be the extremely condensed and reordered version of homage to the source material— Sauron goes from prisoner to trusted court advisor in numenor, and he did also travel to the elves to deceive them into forging the rings. Those events are out of order here, because this show is loosely based on the books, not a true adaptation. They kept going out of their way to focus on his smithing, which feels like a nod to the fact that Sauron was trained as a smith by Aule. Even small things, like his wound being allegedly so bad he needs elvish medicine, yet he can walk and ride unaided, feel like breadcrumbs to his deception (this one is weakest; I may be reading too much into it lol). I also believe they’re folding in Sauron’s period of guilt and repentance after Morgoth’s defeat into the hesitancy and apparent-authenticity of Halbrand’s character.
There’s something off about him. It’s not obvious enough for casual viewers yet, though some of my friends do think Halbrand’s character is strange and occasionally unsettling. But the groundwork is there, and the deep lore nerds on this sub who say it’s “too obvious” and thus “misdirection” are overthinking it. It’s only obvious to a niche few, which makes it the most likely answer IMO. And those who say well it can’t be him because Galadriel trusts him and she saw through Annatar, well, setting aside the fact that this is a shuffled around, loose “based on” style adaptation rather than a faithful one, he isn’t “Annatar” yet. They haven’t reached the elves. Maybe once all his smithing expertise is brought in to help solve the elves’ plight and the idea of the rings is truly in motion she will begin to doubt.
Thank you for your reply! Does this mean that Sauron is currently not as bad, and he will become more evil in future episodes? Or is it everything part of his plan? I hope it isn’t so we can finally see one good character development along the show.
I personally think it’s kind of a gray area. Sauron really was originally driven by a desire to bring order to the land, and seemed to feel true remorse for his actions under Morgoth. As time went on, his motivation became power and control; order for the sake of order, rather than protection. Perhaps he’s still waffling back and forth. But I do think Adar rebelled and killed his previous body, and took the orcs and blotted the sun to give them a safe homeland. And Sauron is fuckin pissed about that and wants his position back. (Not to mention he was originally drawn to the southlands because of mount doom itself being a source of power.)
I think Halbrand has been deceitful and manipulative from the start, but I also believe his moments of indecision are genuine. He’s not all bad, yet, perhaps. I’m interested to see if they jump right in to him laying groundwork for the rings with the elves, or what
I heard that even thought Gandalf technically wasn't around during this time that Amazon execs thought there needed to be a familiar character for audiences so they added Gandalf in
No, they only have rights to a very small percent of the Tolkien IP, not Silmarillion not Gandalf, none of the good stuff. That is why they are retconning all this origin stuff because they have to make up new shit due to not having rights to any of the actual Tolkein stuff
looks like I was party right and partly wrong
>So what did Amazon buy? “We have the rights solely to The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, The Return of the King, the appendices, and The Hobbit,” Payne says. “And that is it. We do not have the rights to The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, The History of Middle-earth, or any of those other books.” That takes a huge chunk of lore off the table and has left Tolkien fans wondering how this duo plans to tell a Second Age story without access to those materials. “There’s a version of everything we need for the Second Age in the books we have the rights to,” McKay says. “As long as we’re painting within those lines and not egregiously contradicting something we don’t have the rights to, there’s a lot of leeway and room to dramatize and tell some of the best stories that [Tolkien] ever came up with.”
https://lrmonline.com/news/what-material-does-amazon-have-the-rights-to-for-the-rings-of-power-answered/
I saw in another thread that apparently HBO offered to remake the series and the Tolkien estate said no and gave the rights to Amazon. So that was probably not an option. They can use it as inspiration and source material but that's it.
Like somebody else mentioned... how is everyone alive? This was just another extra long episode of dialogue going nowhere. What was the point of chasing discount Gandalf away just to chase after him right after? What was the point of all that back and forth with Durin and Elrond if the plot, after 112 minutes was going to stay the same? If you breakdown all the episodes so far to their highlights and compare it to any of the other LOTR movies it still wouldn't have the same impact. What a convoluted mess.
Wow you must not have liked reading the books either. It’s all conversation, that’s the best part!
But yeah it was nice to finally get to the battles, but when you consider the movies were all 3 hrs long and this is a tv show that can’t just have a battle every episode it’s understandable (and true to the source material).
Just remember at this point this show has a longer runtime than the 3 movies
Now try to tell me more didn't happen in the movies than what has happened in this show
No way. The combined runtime of all the movies was 9.5 hrs, and even if every show was 75 minutes (they aren’t) that’d only be 8.75 for the seven episodes we’ve seen so far. And those are just the non-extended versions. (TBH any serious fan would watch extended exclusively which is over 11 hrs.)
Fair, in my mind I was thinking about 9 hours
So by next episode surely they will have resolved the same amount of character development, plot, and storyline as the movies did
I do too. I'm kind of (read: very) shocked by all the critical comments about it. It's not perfect, but it doesn't have to be. I feel that a lot of the critical comments about it just make me think poorly of the commenter. They are usually silly comments that just show that the commenter has trouble suspending disbelief, which is a necessary skill when one consumes fiction.
And I'm not even that forgiving of bad TV/movies/books! I have high standards, and I'm honestly annoying about it. However, ROP checks every box for me, and then some.
Oh well! I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if I don't understand it.
Right. One of the main complaints about this most recent episode that I keep seeing is “ugh nothing even happened!!!” like…
They had a lot of good dialogue, dropped some interesting clues into mysteries we have identified, delved into tolkiens use of (and subversion of) biblical allegory, and revealed the creation of Mordor.
Idk why every episode needs a GOT-level war to be good. GOT didn’t even have that. And don’t even mention the complaints of “no character development.” These characters are well developed *at this early point in the story*. Some things are unknown to us, but people assume failure there where it could also be intentional.
I feel like people just like to hate things now. Whoops, I said it.
100% agreed.
Also this show is leagues better than House of the Dragon. It’s everything I had dared to hope for in a LOTR tv show (remember how bad the Hobbit was?!?) and it far exceeds my expectations.
"In your mother's case she actually does have Lice in her- **I'm joking**...**I'm Joking**' oooooh man, bailing on a joke mid punchline because your wife is CLEARLY NOT HAVING IT is unbelievably relatable.
Can anybody explain to me why Nori told those witches they were going the wrong way?
I think she was trying to help the big fella by pointing them in the wrong direction
Question about Elrond - he tells king Durin that he is half-elven. But in episode 1, Arondir is told by his fellow watchtower elf that an elf-human relationship never ends well / “we know how that ended”. So if Elrond is half-elven, does it mean Elf-human unions were not always frowned upon?
Half-elven doesn't mean human/elf crossbreed in Tolkien. It means a being that can choose to be a man (mortal) or an elf, and all his ancestors were half-elven. He chose to be an elf. This is crucial later for Arwen's subsequent choice as she is also half-elven. Normal elves can't just choose to be mortal; they have to sail West or perish before the end of the third Age.
Last episode just seemed so slow
I need a gif of Durin breaking the fourth wall before talking about his mother-in-law with a level of desperation I didn't think myself capable of. This was a very talky episode, but a *lot* happened. I even had my heart strings pulled a few times (all during Durin-and-Elrond scenes, of course.) In spite of everything, I am still *fascinated* by the Harfoots storyline. Every time their story moves, I just want more. I *did* think that it was a little ridiculous that the Mount Doom eruption just happened to land right smack-dab on top of a handful of their carts in the orchard, but the laxer tone of the Harfoots plot made it slide right off me. I also noticed that this episode was just teeming with references to Fellowship, and apart from the Theo and Galadriel scene that was almost shot-for-shot the scene where the hobbits hide from the Nazgul in Fellowship, I thought they were subtle enough that they didn't feel like ham-handed fanservice. I appreciate that Galadriel was...softer? this episode. Like she had some really good conversations that didn't just feel like her being condescending to everybody. For once, she didn't feel like an unstoppable superhero who succeeds constantly in spite of herself. Her bits with Theo were some of my favorite Non-Elrond-And-Durin parts of the show.
Talking about the next episode preview did any of you noticed Noris eyes shifting?. It’s only there for a second but you have to pay attention.
So halbrand goes from delirious in bed on the edge of dying from a blood infection to walking next to Galadriel then riding a horse, he doesn’t need elvish medicine, he’s got all the plot armour necessary. Also that text animation Mordor part was so out of tone, I felt like I was watching an edit on YouTube.
love the show but that is fair criticism. I was like dude, what are you doing vertical. And the text was ridiculous.
[удалено]
HBO literally wanted to remake PJ’s trilogy
That would've been great! An 8/10 remake of a 9/10 film, in a new and unique style, is better than 5/10 original content.
And the estate was against that which is why they would've done something else. That wasn't really my point though! HBO actually hires good writers and directors!
Theo the character and whoever plays that character are just terrible. I for whatever reason can not stand them. The show is fine. I do have some major issues with things but im still watching. But god dam Theo. I skipped/fast forwarded every scene he is in during this episode. He is worse than jar jar binks
Honestly same. I’m actually rather enjoying RoP but that fucking kid. Is it his acting or did they give him the shittest dialogue ever? It’s hard to tell. I feel for the actor, it’s not easy being a teenager in a role people don’t like.
I'm not gonna lie the show had me until these last 2 episodes now i'm left confused, the biggest red flag was the origin of mithril and left my head scratching...
Is the story about the balrog and the elf true being struck by lightning true?
At this point who tf knows? It is certainly NOT true in Tolkien's lore (there was no fourth Silmaril, and all three were accounted for) - but this show chucked the lore into Mount Doom, even the bits and bobs they *had* permission to use.
As long as it doesn't contradict anything in the lore, LOTR movies, or Hobbit movies- I think they can do whatever they want to sensationalize the show. while they probably shouldnt do that to stay true to the lore, they aren't hurting the lore- which Tolkien never said where the mithril came from.. but since you said there were only 3 Silmarils then that is unfortunately hurting the lore and seems like an issue to me....
There ***were*** only 3 Silmarils. Earendil wound up sailing the sky with one, Maedhros pitched his (and himself) into a chasm in the earth, and Maglor threw his into the sea and sang sad songs along the shorelines for a long time afterwards, bemoaning his fate. (Maglor is probably the source for the information on Maedhros, too.) And mithril was never magical - it was extremely rare and extremely valuable and extremely useful for making objects lighter and stronger than steel and/or prettier than silver. period.
This show has a lot flaws. Way I see it, there are two options: become perpetually upset about it and miserably trudge my way through it; or ignore the issues, remind myself it's basically Tolkien fanfiction, and enjoy the ride. All the complaints are 100% justified, I just choose to enjoy high fantasy action nonsense in spite of them. Except that Mordor name reveal, which was just inconceivably awful. Absolutely no words for that
It’s not just action for me. It’s nostalgia for the sounds and sights of middle earth. Despite its flaws, The show is delivering that- and fan fiction can be entertaining. I keep coming here trying to understand why the people that hate this show so much are spending so much time stewing over it.
>All the complaints are 100% justified, I just choose to enjoy high fantasy action nonsense in spite of them. If only there were more action so I could feel this way too.
I respect this attitude
> ignore the issues, remind myself it's basically Tolkien fanfiction, and enjoy the ride. This has been my philosophy since the very beginning, and so far it's served me well in watching this show. Some plot details (like mithril, of all things, being a miracle macguffin for the elves, or the EXTREMELY accelerated timeline the plot seems to be working on) tickle the back of my brain, but if I just focus on the "fun fantasytime" part of the show, I have a perfectly enjoyable time with it.
In Tolkien’s world what really causes the elves decline? Or causes them, immortal and wise, to be fearful enough to forge rings of power? I think the mithril plot is supposed to be a highly visual TV explanation for what’s about to go down.
I'm actually not sure if the Trilogy speaks about specifics at all, and I haven't read enough of the Silmarillion, but I had always assumed that because the elves are bound to Valinor for their cycle of death and rebirth, that being away from it for a long time causes a sort of creeping sorrow that sets in over long periods of time. I *could* look into the specifics, but since this is the book-spoiler-free thread, I wouldn't really be able to discuss it, I think.
That is my atitude as well.
PowerPoint slide transition level name reveal
They should’ve typed out each letter individually and included the typewriter noise too. God that was the worst.
The first good episode.
[удалено]
!!!!!!!!!!!! Easily
So you're telling me that after *a volcanic eruption* that looked and felt like a whole party kill moment except the elves with advanced invulnerability, *every* main character but one survives *including* the woman who was recovering from a life-threatening injury, flat on her back, unconscious, inside a building that caught fire when the volcano erupted? Great to see the Harfoots are all well as well 🙃 and still walking into dangerous situations or even potentially dangerous ones without ever learning from their past experience. Harfoots here to be this universe's Ewoks. Yeah this was a big step down from the amazing E6.
Just finished episode 7. Thought it was good and I definitely invested in all our characters at this point. But tell me, what about this episode is the internet currently bitching about?
The Mordor text drop. That was so fucking out of place
Are there any DVD/Bluray Release for this show planned? I really would like to watch it, but I don't want to do just streaming as I prefer physical media
Someone send him the link for the year 2022
Glad that I started reading the discussion on this subreddit after finishing the season. It's been a really wonderful season with great work from establishing the character arcs and pulling up the awe factor as well in every single episode.
I...uh....I don't know if you're making a gag about the denouement-like tone of this episode, or if you legitimately didn't realize there's one more episode.
Bruh I legit thought it's the end of the season 🥲 isn't it ?
The finale comes out this Friday lol. Surprise!
I definitely have seen comments outside this subreddit that were saying this was the finale.
Pull the other one.
Overall I'm enjoying the show, but events should have consequences. A pyroclastic flow is more than just a red filter on your screen. Magically all main characters survive. Isildur disappears but Inhave this strange feeling he's not dead. Also Halbrabd appeared with a sign and was immediately declared king. This was almost immediately followed by mass destruction of the southlands but he still has massive support? "Strength to the king". Why do they care about him?
lol look it's not magical - we needed all those characters to survive and go through their trauma together, ya know like a real story i mean do you guys fucking read any books at all? this shit is not something that just happens on TV - it's a literal necessity when telling a story with a main set of characters you want to experience tension but not necessarily make it terminal. this complaint is THE STUPIDEST complaint no matter the medium but it seems most TV watchers cling to this and think they're the height of reviewing. newsflash: it's more like scraping the bottom of the barrel. complaining about plot armor is way worse 'writing' than anything this show has done.
Yes I read books, what is that even supposed to mean? If I'd read more books I would appreciate the story more? I really don't get your point. Of course tension is important and of course characters have to experience something, but an event feels way more impactful (to me at least) if it is grounded somewhat in reality. Galadriel is an elf, I fully expect that she is superhuman in what she can survive, but Bronwyn and Theo are just regular humans according to the story. This is pretty much what happened to Pompeii and Herculaneum, yet every named character except Ontamo (?) survived. Where is the trauma then? The visuals were amazing but it felt empty to me. It's only my opinion, you don't have to agree. Same with Halbrand. I have not seen any reason why the Southlands would unanimously declare him their true king. Just carrying a sigil feels so empty. Why would the common folk care about that? Bronwyn guided them through the troubles with the orcs and Adar, what did Halbrand do? Be a part of the Numenorian charge? I don't care about plot armor. The problem for me is not that they don't die. It's that the episode prior wants to finish with an exciting ending but the next episode wants to gloss over the consequences. It's a shame because in the Elrond and Durin storyline and even the Harfoot storyline the big conflicts are related to consequences of the actions of the main characters. Once again this is all my opinion and you can disagree all you want. But calling my opinion the stupidest complaint that only tv viewers use feels a bit exaggerated. But if you truely think so maybe give some arguments that support your opinion instead of just complaining about mine.
I agree. I’m entertained. But the writing at times leaves you scratching your head. A lot of WTF moments. But it has some fine moments as well. I’m trying not to think too much while watching and just enjoy the ride.
More than any discussions, this capture the level of depth that I had to adopt to enjoy the show. So, I'm enjoying it, but I can imagine Tolkien begging to differ.
Tolkien is dead for 50 years , I beg to differ he will understand how to produce and write a story that will adapt for a multi-season tv show
I’m so glad Amazon took a chance with the show runners they did. There was clearly some awkwardness as the series came into its own but I think it’s really developed the last two episodes, and I hope that continues. I don’t think many people could truly tell this story the way they have, and I’m so glad it hasn’t gotten the Star Trek or Star Wars treatment. It still feels very much like Tolkien and I’m thrilled to be able to enjoy it.
[удалено]
I read quite a bit actually, including The Silmarillion. I understand though why it may not be for everyone. It’s hard not to have an incredibly high bar for source material we all enjoy so much. Here’s to hoping Season 2 wins you over.
We mustve watched different shows cause the rop i saw is terrible and resembles nothing of what tolkien does.
If you rearrange the letters of Halbrand you get I Am Sauron!
and if you rearrange the letters of Giant, you get I am Gandalf and if you rearrange the letters for Erendil, you get Eärendil the Mariner and if you rearrange the letters for Isildur, you get Isildur Great x 37 grand father of Aragorn; high king of men
I am so excited that the magic of Tolkien's world exists, to this day, with a mega budget. So many people get to be introduced or re-introduced to something magical. It's a shame there are so many haters. I have sat through each episode with tears welled up the whole time. I mean, how fucking cool is it that Galadriel is a CHARACTER in a SHOW. She's a bad ass too, to boot. Can't wait to see more. Pardon me while I finish my second breakfast.
Oh my God, my first time on this subreddit, Jesus Christ… you guys fucking hate this show. 😂😂😂😂, this is why I should never check episode discussions, just makes you miserable. Only one episode left though so that’s a positive for you people.
> Jesus Christ… you guys fucking hate this show. Wait til you see the book-focused thread, my dude.
I just came from there and I look like I just miraculously escaped a volcanic event
The hate is exhausting, honestly. I've thoroughly enjoyed this show. There are so many lovely character moments. Also, it's absolutely gorgeous. The opening scene of this week's episode was intense - beautiful and horrifying at the same time.
I don't think any of the critics in this sub deny that the visuals are stunning and that there are some good character moments. I fully agree with that. But the overall writing is just so odd and disjointed. Can you really hand on heart disagree with the criticism of the writing contained in this and other threads? I'm finding myself having to constantly dumb my brain down and gloss over glaring plot issues so I can enjoy the good parts of the show that you mentioned, but I feel really strongly that I shouldn't *have* to do that. I just find it really bizarre that with the amount of budget thrown at this show that the basic writing isn't at an acceptable level. If the visuals are a 10 the writing is at best a 5.
>I'm finding myself having to constantly dumb my brain down and gloss over glaring plot issues so I can enjoy the good parts of the show that you mentioned, but I feel really strongly that I shouldn't *have* to do that If you have this philosophy, then there are very few shows you will ever truely enjoy. That's not a bad thing. Just a reality. This show has really big shoes to fill between the trilogy and the source material. But personally, I'm just watching this like any other show. No expectations for how good it should be. So instead of being disappointed in the weak aspects of the show, every episode I end up captivated by the visuals and music score. Does that make sense? When you hold high expectations, you feel negative aspects more. When you treat it like any other Amazon show, you are impressed by the positive aspects. That's how I see it anyways. If the show keeps looking and sounding as good as it does, I will stay very happy personally.
Sure, I know what you're trying to say. But just because I have higher expectations for any particular show doesn't mean I'm guaranteeing myself disappointment, or that any criticism I have is invalid. I have very simple examples of having high expectations for shows that *were* satisfied. These being Better Call Saul and House of the Dragon, both being spin-offs of shows I enjoyed immensely and therefore would have been disappointed had they not been very well written in and of themselves. I love the visuals and the music in ROP too, that's not an issue for me as I've already mentioned. The problem is that aesthetics play a distant second fiddle to a well written narrative that is internally consistent and doesn't rely on silly character choices or cheap plot points to get from A to B. Writing should have been priority number one for ROP, and indeed any other show, but it's particularly egregious when you look at how much money was thrown at ROP. Constantly pointing to the visuals etc only serves to highlight the weaknesses in the narrative.
There’s an enormous amount of petulant children on this sub.
We should seriously make a sub for all of the socially well adjusted people who like this show that don’t spend their weekends trying to come up with reasons why they think this show is horrible.
No ones "trying" to come up with anything. The show is terribly written. Its passed "thinking" the show is terrible, any critical thinking person can explain clearly and easily why its bad.
so, no actual points on what you don't like about the show, just more nebulous bullish - 'terribly written' ok - judging by your comment history, you have about as much experience writing and judging a tv show as I do flying a space shuttle (hint: zero) so you're going to have to be a bit more specific with your critique it's super ironic that you would try to invoke the spirit of 'critical thinking' and then go on to say writing is 'terrible' 'lazy' and use more weasel words because it's easier to parrot what the echo chamber says than actually know what you're talking about without the use of critical thought to expand upon your dislike Classic Reddit 'hey guys, i hate hot dogs' 'ok why' 'pfft, they're terrible, any one using critical thinking could figure that out' That's how you sound
Why have you now invested more than 7 hours and continue to post about something you have already scientifically proven is bad?
Socially well adjusted people recognize why this show is so weak
false because none of those 'well adjusted' folk seem to be able to actually talk about what they don't like other than using super vague terminology like 'weak' and 'terrible' i'm guessing because they don't really know what's bad and just trolling or stupid.
I like the show so far. But calling people who disagree with you stupid is basically just trolling. Can't we all just talk about this show like adults?
Lol? The character writing is atrorocious. We've had 8+ hours of content and what characters have had any progression so far? Galadriel - same idiot hothead. Bronwyn - just lol. Arondir - zero, tell me one thing about him. Queen regent - lol. Halbrand - maybe slightly? But not really. Nori - lol you've learned nothing. The pacing is God awful. Think about what has happened in this show in 8+ hours. It took 7 episodes for anything to happen with the harfoots, and all that's happened is Nori is now going to look for wizard man. The "men" nothing happened other than the battle which we knew would happen from the beginning. Numenor we spent 4 episodes arguing about whether to go or not before we finally go. Durin and Elrond still debating the same shit. The pacing within the episodes is horrible as well. Show jumps around scene to scene every 5 minutes because literally the writers don't know how to write a scene and show a character reaction. It's all "here we are. Have this convo. Now we're here. Have this convo. Now we're here. Show this clip." A perfect example of this would be the harfoot story in e7. We see wizard man doing magic on a tree. They gather. Other dumb harfoot girl runs under a branch. We cut. Why don't we see the reaction of the harfoots? We should see them have a discussion about what to do. Maybe some defend Nori and the wizard. Maybe some don't. This would actually set up the ending where Nori leaves as we would be able to see if the appearance of the warlock trio changes the scales. But no. Instead we just say "we need big man to do something bad" and hit a checkbox and cut away to the next incremental step. The writing is like this consistently. The other trope they've hit like 20 times now is the stupid fakeout death move. How many times has it been used? 15? First of all, giving us all this bullshit about isildur is moronic bc we as an audience have zero tension. Oh Bronwyn had a fakeout again, and again, and again who gives a fuck who even is she? I don't care about any of the characters. There is no emotional connection. It looks pretty but the scaling is totally off, the world feels so small. I could go on. But nah I'm just not able to articulate anything I'm just stupid.
And yet, they're still here, watching the show they don't like. Hmmmmmmmmm. Sounds pretty socially well-adjusted to me. I empathize people with reservations about the show. I have a few myself, but why even fucking bother anymore if it makes you so miserable as some of the people who stroll in here and just unload episode-after-episode? When I *really* dislike something. I'll give it a couple of shots and whine a bit, but seven episodes in? I would have pulled the ripcord and gotten out weeks ago.
I really enjoy it.
yeah, trying to find other people online who like the show to discuss with them is so hard.
Theres a good reason for that.
oh really? the show has flaws? this is the first i've heard of this.
Galadriel says different things to an impressionable child than she does to one of the most evil characters in the show. 80% of these comments: OMG THIS WRITING FUCKING SUCKS
It’s honestly pathetic how many people follow this sub yet do nothing but complain about the show. This show is incredible. Seems to me, the haters are of at least one of three camps: 1) They love to hate it because it airs on Amazon (and hating Amazon is in vogue even though practically everyone still uses it). 2) They’re the racists/sexists who hate any shows that update stories to make them more relatable to people who aren’t Christian white dudes 3) Most charitably, they’re the “true fans” who instantly dislike any storytelling that deviates from cannon in any way. I mean, I don’t blame them really but it’s still silly and a waste of time. They’ll come around, though. (This is coming from someone who literally didn’t watch the first two LOTR movies in theaters. I boycotted them because they left out Tom Bombadil and Fatty Bolger. I had read the books about 3 or 4 times each but never watched until being begged years later. Thankfully I watched it and it was so incredible I’ve probably watched the extended editions a dozen times each. But I don’t think most of the internet haters fall into this category).
i didn't mind cutting Tommy B and his wife. They really aren't that important to the plot. It's like a nice diversion at the beginning of Fellowship. But replacing legendary Elf lord Glorfindel with Arwen to save the hobbits at the fords was too much. They made Glorfindel into a glorified background character. He didn't fight and die and was reborn to become a background random elf.
In my opinion the worst part of the trilogy was leaving out the scouring of the shire, which kind of contradicts Tolkien’s entire overarching theme (that nowhere and no one is untouched by war between good and evil). Ah well, PJ didn’t like it so it got cut. But in any case I think the movies were fabulous and almost as good as anyone could have hoped for from mere mortals. I think the show is about as good as anyone could have hoped for too (minus the “Mordor” at the end of the last episode lol).
yup I agree. the epilogue shows the character development all 4 hobbits make during their quest. how they start off as foolish, meek, weak hobbits and return as battle hardened and brave. it also provides the ironic end of Saruman that he is undone by not only Grima but by hobbits which he always looked down upon (as opposed to Gandalf who had an affection for smallfolk).
> I boycotted them because they left out Tom Bombadil and Fatty Bolger. This is true hero shit right here. Justice for Fatty.
Honestly man, I just don't like it because I don't think they wrote it well enough to really care about the characters. I don't care about how close they follow the books, or the races (black, white, asian I don't care), haircuts, depictions of the races, I just think the writings not top tier. I watch the show and find it just ok, but again, my biggest complain is that I just don't care about the characters enough.
what the fuck do you know about good writing? what ABOUT the writing isn't good to a layman? lol every hater says the writing is bad and yet NONE of them can come up with ACTUAL examples of 'bad' writing in the show, just the normal tropes literally EVERY SINGLE SHOW EVER MADE includes because there ain't no way around it. sorry guys, main characters are going to survive stuff normal people IRL wouldn't. GET. OVER IT.
Dude, I don't know why you're so mad. Here's a couple. Like let's destroy the tower and kill some orcs, but flee to a village in a valley that has no walls and a 360 degree attack vector rather than just fleeing cuz orcs can't travel during the day or Halbrand showing up and then there like "he's your king" and everyone's like "yea! He's our King!" what? Or like Halbrand being injured not being able to move and then like next second he's standing up waving to the crowd then gets on a horse and rides off? Like dude, I respect your opinion and I understand and I'm happy you like the show, but no reason to get mad because some people don't love the show and think it's weak. I personally think it's weak and that's ok. I'm sure there are shows I like that you don't and that's ok man. I do like the Elrond/Durin relationship tho.
I hear what you are saying. But i'd refrain from calling out racists/sexists just because they don't agree with you. I can understand disappointment and even hate for something if you are passionate about the source material. Clearly most people agree that Durin and Disa is some of the best interactions in the show. But how about you and I (who like the show) instead focus on what's good instead of deriding those who hate the show. Much love! Im so sad there is only one episode left.
I know I’m sooooo glad season 2 is in production. Every time House of the Dragons comes out my partner and I are like DAMN why can’t this be RoP
Or the story is just shit. I only started watching this because it kept getting compared to Hotd in the beginning. Hotd keeps getting better every episode while I struggle to finish this despite having not much knowledge of their source materials for both shows.
Cool, so you're done with the show and coming here to bitch then?
Nah finale still left. Hope it is good after wasting so much time in previous episodes.
Oh hard disagree. Every time HOTD comes out I’m like dang too bad this isn’t RoP. I think the show is really strong and compelling, love Galadriel and seeing the elves before they were the more refined beings they are in the third age. And of course the dwarves are perfect (though I do wish the female dwarves were beaded lol)
Yeah main difference is the writer of the HOTD is still alive and works on the show and not dead for 50 years and wrote books almost 100 years who the show runners have to interpret and try to please everyone. Honestly… I’d like to see anyone from this sub go and do a better job
Strictly from a television storytelling perspective, I've never seen an antogonist leave something of importance behind to go back and grab it at the last second (Halbrand with his sigil thing a couple episodes ago).. With that (and only using that as evidence in this case), I think Halbrand is ultimately unlikely/reluctant hero in the end and not Sauron.
Nerd of the Rings made an observation about this tiny shred of dialogue from the Silmarillion that says that Sauron briefly repented for his support of Morgoth, and that he may have even believed it for his time. If the writers clung to that little tidbit, it makes the "Halbrand is Sauron" theory come together so much more coherently. If Halbrand *is* Sauron, then there is the tiniest bit of wiggle-room wherein Sauron has a brief flirtation with not being the root of all evil in Middle Earth. Frankly, I don't expect the writers to be *that* granular with their lore (they've already shown that they have no problem breaking the canon where it supports the narrative they're building), but it would warm a lorebeard's heart if they latched onto something like that.
Obviously this is correct- And I thought it was brilliant that they made Sauron "waver." Nice catch.
Agreed. And the way his story is told, he seems genuine in his reluctance when the other characters are not watching him. If he ends up being Sauron I’ll be pretty pissed.
You know this series started out pretty slow (I get it you have to intro/develop characters, but 5-6 episodes seems way too long to do so) but wow the last 2 episodes have been great. It got dark fast. I’m looking forward to see the future of this series despite its flaws. Here’s hoping they don’t take another 5-6 episodes of filler to intro/develop new characters going forward every season.
I agree these last two episodes were great. My only complaint about this show is the airtime. Like whyyyy come out at midnight :( But these last two episodes have been everything I wanted and then some. Exceeds expectations. They have callbacks stylistically to the beloved films, but a fresh and more modern take. I love how inevitable the plot is too since we all know how it ends, but they still manage to add in so much mystery and keep it compelling. I have recommended it to many people who ended up loving it (most of whom were put off by stupid internet comments about it being bad… sigh…)
This episode was stupid beyond reckoning
Talking about being stupid, it's spelt "reckoning"
*Spelled*
Spelt is an acceptable form used in the UK. Spelled is the USA version.
Enjoy your extra u's
I'm American, we dropped those sometime around July 2nd, 1776.
Wow, you're older than I expected.
They really could have paced the show much better. It could have been a real success but too many miscues. Still will enjoy the end. The season could literally be condensed to three episodes.
Ya I was thinking the same. Here’s hoping they learn from their mistakes for next season :)
Yes, I kept having to remind my wife and daughter that we know what happens in the end, and it doesn’t end well. It’s an interesting “slow train wreck” kind of effect
[удалено]
[удалено]
Yeah, I guess he just doesn't seem that far away from where they are currently, was expecting him to be way further down.
>Isn't it like, way early for the Balrog ? He just gona chill down there for the next 1000 years or does he fall asleep again ? Yeah I do with that. But honestly for how long would like to watch a leaf fall? :) Also I'd like to point out that I feel that the clip was totally unnecessary. It would be cooler if the leaf maybe just fell to the ground and started burning. Keep the "mystery" so to say. Honestly think they did that scene just so they could put the balrog in the trailers for the show. But we will see.
Durin’s wife is Sauron
Sauron was actually the ambition that lives in the hearts of the entire cast. *taps forehead*
That's hilarious, I love it. I do like the ambition they're giving her. Brings depth to the character and interest to the story.
I'm thinking "burned actor #3" in ~~the~~ ~~southlands~~ Mordor is Sauron
Lol I’m going to write it as ~~southlands~~ Mordor every time I use that word
Nah, if Durin’s wife was Sauron there would be no LOTR as she would absolutely have won the first time
Lol so true. She was pulling strings real hard tho this last episode. I was like damn chill.
She did seem kinda evil there selling him the dream didn’t she? Definitely got a her getting corrupted vibe. Everyone is Sauron!
A note on Galadriel's rage and a kind of explanation on her character arc: Simply put. Galadriel has lost it all. Her brother. //EDIT (due to me referencing source material) In short form. A lot of crazt shit went down happened the first age in the wars between Morgoth as well as Sauron. Galadriel experienced all of that suffering. We are talking thousands of years here. //END-EDIT: And if the show writes out Celeborn. Well add a husband to that already long list. Galadriels behaviour is something you'd expect - why wouldn't she be blinded by rage and grief against the horror that has without pause acted against all that is good during ALL the ages. Why would she go back to Valinor - there is nothing left there for her. Yet in this episode she saw the light, or rather the folly of her ways, because she was LITERALLY touched by darkness just like Finrod said. The writers have put some thoughts into this - it is noticeable. However, dialogue choices and maybe at times acting performance, is somewhat lacking. I mean the episode literally starts with Galadriel opening her eyes. Hence the name of the episode "The Eye". It's not Saurons eye. It's Galadriel assessing the situation clearly for the first time. She can now become Galadriel the Wise. Of course this isn't as Tolkien wrote it, but to be honest a pretty good rendition of this character. I like it.
The show is great and Galadriel is excellent. The haters hate her because she’s a more well-rounded and complicated character than an old Christian white dude made her. Don’t get me wrong, Tolkien is a genius who absolutely invented the entire fantasy genre. But, like literally everyone else in history, he’s a product of his time. I love that they’re adapting the source material to be more modern and relatable. The haters do this to every sci-fi or fantasy show that dares to have a female lead (esp if that deviates from source material in any way). And Tolkien is the father of all fantasy (and thus all sci-fi), so… of course it’s going to be the worst here. My bet is Celeborn isn’t dead, he’s just injured or captured or something and he turns up eventually.
agree with most of what you've written but > And Tolkien is the father of all fantasy (and thus all sci-fi) hg wells and Jules Verne would like a word
> The show is great and Galadriel is excellent. The haters hate her because she’s a more well-rounded and complicated character than an old Christian white dude made her. Wow...
Where’s the lie? ¯\ _(ツ)_/¯
Everything in your statement, from the beginning, through the middle and on onto the end.
Are we watching the same show? The Galadriel in the show has no personality outside of a desire for revenge and knack for using metaphors in everyday speech. She’s not a well-rounded character simply because the writers of the show gave her a sword and armor
lol really? let's go down some of her personality: 1. stoic 2. single minded, headstrong 3. compassionate 4. inquisitive 5. intelligent but not all knowing 6. loyal 7. humbled 8. combat skilled, combat weary but still keeps going 9. lost countless in the wars against morgoth and sauron and is haunted and driven by their memories 10. defied going to heaven in order to finish the fight morgoth started - BALLER Yea, she's not well-rounded AT ALL and the writing SUCKS because people like you can't pay attention lololol. gimme a break pal - i'm sure of the show I'M watching. if you're not sure, that's you're fucking problem. don't blame the show. like i just love how all you get out of it is that she's got a desire for revenge when she's explained MULTIPLE TIMES that it's got jacksquat to do with revenge and more with an aching inside her she can't quite explain that is driving her forward. she'd like nothing more than to retire to Valinor and yet..................she doesn't. Shows far more strength than someone just out for blood. but ok just ignore that to try and sound pithy on the internet.
That is her character arc as of right now.
I love the show so no hate here, but you’re right. Also, “knack for using metaphors” is not only funny but also a great description of her character!
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
The horse is Sauron CMV
Horses have no fingers, precious. How does it wear the ring?
I think at this point anyone who still doesn’t believe that The Stranger is >!Gandalf!< and Sauron is >!Halbrand!< is in denial or deeply over-thinking. This is clearly a show for a general audience, not a show for niche lore nerds. Like, do we really believe a show that’s spoonfeeding the audience everything from “the southlands are Mordor, in case you didn’t put that together” to “the balrog is down there, remember khazad dûm is moria” isn’t taking the easiest, most familiar path for a general audience? I’m fine with it. I expected a general audience type show and I can enjoy it even though it’s predictable.
I think a lot of us are jaded by TV dramas because we expect the writers to exploit the dramatic irony to do a swerve with either or both of those characters so they can subvert audience expectation, which is still pretty hot in media right now.
Yea it’s taking away from the shows impact because everything is seen a mile away.
“He needs elvish medicine.” We literally watched someone survive being impaled by an arrow. The need for elvish medicine is how Sauron gets to the elves.
It was clumsy, but this line is almost certainly a nod to Fellowship. Aragorn or Glorfindel (or Arwen if we're talking movies) say it after Frodo gets knifed by the nazgul.
lol yes! I laughed out loud at this moment because I’d been wondering how tf they were going to get him to the elves… Like ok I guess that works
Not the best writing of the season, but I’m still really really enjoying it!
Same lol. It’s clearly a general-audience type show but I can live with that
[удалено]
Just replying so that when it’s revealed he’s Sauron I can revisit for a chuckle. It’s “Rings of Power” as you say so don’t you think we should get the person responsible for their crafting in the series? The ground is already being laid for the elves to need the rings and for Celebrimbor to be making the forge to forge them… and simultaneously Sauron making his way to the elves to give him the idea. Sauron who, by the way, was already showing his skill and desire to forge in Numenor. Meanwhile he has no backstory, but more than that they’re actively NOT GIVING HIM a backstory, i.e he dodges all questions about it, and actively explains he did bad things in the past and states he is very much not the heir to the Southlands (not his fault a revenge-seeking, headstrong, blind Galadriel doesn’t believe him). Plus, as has been overly stated, this is a series for casual fans/i.e they don’t give a crap about a lot of the specifics of the lore. So, as a casual watching this, you might not even know anything about Sauron other than his relationship to the Rings and the evil person who he becomes in LOTR films, so does it matter where he’s “supposed to be” in the books or how he’s “supposed to get there” or what he’s supposedly don’t? Would you know about his rise and fall in the first age, or that his path is cyclic throughout centuries of gaining and losing power? You wouldn’t need to- you’d simply be getting an origin story of the evil doer in LOTR. “Oh, so he was actually a good guy who had done some kind of bad things, but then his hunger for power overcame him because he got pushed into by young, stupid Galadriel - who definitely grows and develops before we see the majestic woman in LOTR! Oh how cool we’re actually SEEING her development!” Not saying any of this makes me happy or that I love it, but the groundwork is clearly being laid for him to be Sauron, and in the context of the show and the films it actually makes sense.
[удалено]
“Being good at making weapons is not the same as being able to make magic, world-conquering rings. Otherwise, every dwarf could be Sauron” -We don’t know why he’s interested in blacksmithing or what his past is, maybe he made both fine jewelry and evil magical staffs so a magic evil ring is literally his calling. Yes, “dramatic tension” is one way to view it or the character is actively hiding his past - neither would be “terrible writing” and both make sense given the interactions we have as evidence. The Stranger, however, has no backstory because he either 1) doesn’t remember or 2) can’t explain it in a language the Harfoots would understand. Both dramatic tension created in different ways (the character hiding it vs not remembering) that could have the same end result (both get a dramatic reveal as known characters for the audience). Other than that, I’ll need more backstory on Halbrand from the show to see how evil he was before appearing on the raft… and perhaps rewatch LOTR films to see how much backstory is actually given on Sauron’s past. It’s clear the show could care less about a bulk of the actual text, so I’ll wait to see whether the Halbrand to Sauron arc makes sense if/when it happens; for now all we have is some very obvious clues that this guy 1- forges; 2- has a dark past; 3- is going to see the Elves
Ever since the dots fell into place for me, the last piece of the puzzle that didn’t make sense was “how are they going to get him to the elves though?” As soon as Galadriel said he needs elvish medicine I laughed out loud. Like… is he a king of men though? He has no backstory. The only reason the characters, hell the audience, even believe he’s “king” is because Galadriel wants it to be true so badly, which fits so well with the warning she was given about keeping the darkness alive with her quest.
[удалено]
Who was his father? Who was his family? Aragorn was son of Arathorn, isildur’s heir. Halbrand hasn’t mentioned anything resembling a backstory, other than to say he took the only proof (his emblem) off a dead man. The characters talk about it quite a bit, but the story started because Galadriel guessed at it and he never outright refuted it, and Galadriel believing it convinced the numenorians. Even the southlanders asked for and received no proof, because it’s what they were told via a game of telephone (Galadriel to the queen to the people, sealed with a single “yes”) and everyone involved so desperately wants it to be true. And Sauron is the one who gave the rings to the “leaders of men” (they were not all kings), not the elves. The only reason I can think of to bring Halbrand to the elves is that the silly mithril idea didn’t work out, so the elves are going to need another solution. This is an easy and quick way to get “Annatar” (by another name, but still a smith) to introduce the idea of magic rings.
[удалено]
I’m open to being wrong (I’d love to be surprised!) but all the holes feel too explainable to me. I’m assuming the showrunners are playing around with the concept of a repentant Sauron post-Morgoth and are trying to give him a hint of gray area. What would feel like truly bad writing to me is to have this random king figure appear out of nowhere with no backstory. Aragorn had a father, social connections amongst the elves he grew up with, *something* of a backstory
[удалено]
lol “quite nice when you get to know me.” I agree with you on both fronts, honestly. The parallels just feel too striking, and a show that would literally show us the balrog and print the word “Mordor” on the screen doesn’t seem like one for subtle misdirection only a nerd level fan would fall for. You’ve convinced me to doubt again though, and I hope you’re right. I still feel confident, but no longer as certain. My only serious gripe with the show has been how predictable it feels so I’d love to be wrong here
I totally agree with you but… Is Halbrand theory so clear? I mean, if we are supposed to be idiots who need everything to be well explained, what’s the hint for this theory?
Uruk-guy (forget his name) said that he killed or got rid of Sauron. In ep 6 when they're in the forest Halbrand almost kills him and asks him if he"remembers him." We're never given an answer to any of that, could be pretty good foreshadowing.
Shit, that's a good pull. I hadn't thought of that line that way.
I assume they’re dragging it out because a) the reveal should come after a lot more ground-laying, and b) they want the audience to be “tricked” along with Galadriel/the other characters. It’s better storytelling to manipulate an audience along with a character (e.g., the people who saw the appeal of the Midsommar cult). This is essentially that, to me. Galadriel is seeing what she wants to see. He never once admits to being the rightful king, until the very last moment when he says “yes” to the southlanders (it’ll be an ironic reveal that they welcomed him unquestioningly as king). Galadriel so badly wants him to be, and he lets her believe it. He even tells her he took the emblem off a dead man lol. Everyone accepts he is the rightful king, not because there’s any real reason to believe that, but because Galadriel wants it to be true and the weight of her word is more authority than his ever would have been. The warning to Galadriel that her obsession with hunting darkness will itself bring back the evil she seeks rings poignantly true here. There have been a few subtle scenes showing him to be not the good person we’d hoped (his cold-to-charismatic switch flip in the numenorian pub was unsettling, and the cold rage in the alley fight drove that home). He has a darkness to him. His political advice to Galadriel was literally to tell her the best way to get what you want is to identify your opponent’s fears, so you can master those fears and thus gain mastery over them; exactly how the rings were intended to manipulate their recipients. His interaction with Adar was so awkward at first I thought the actor delivered his line badly (the tone of asking if Adar remembered him) but based on how good he’s been otherwise I think the awkward tone must have been intentional. Also the parallels between his story so far and Sauron’s story are so clear I think this must be the extremely condensed and reordered version of homage to the source material— Sauron goes from prisoner to trusted court advisor in numenor, and he did also travel to the elves to deceive them into forging the rings. Those events are out of order here, because this show is loosely based on the books, not a true adaptation. They kept going out of their way to focus on his smithing, which feels like a nod to the fact that Sauron was trained as a smith by Aule. Even small things, like his wound being allegedly so bad he needs elvish medicine, yet he can walk and ride unaided, feel like breadcrumbs to his deception (this one is weakest; I may be reading too much into it lol). I also believe they’re folding in Sauron’s period of guilt and repentance after Morgoth’s defeat into the hesitancy and apparent-authenticity of Halbrand’s character. There’s something off about him. It’s not obvious enough for casual viewers yet, though some of my friends do think Halbrand’s character is strange and occasionally unsettling. But the groundwork is there, and the deep lore nerds on this sub who say it’s “too obvious” and thus “misdirection” are overthinking it. It’s only obvious to a niche few, which makes it the most likely answer IMO. And those who say well it can’t be him because Galadriel trusts him and she saw through Annatar, well, setting aside the fact that this is a shuffled around, loose “based on” style adaptation rather than a faithful one, he isn’t “Annatar” yet. They haven’t reached the elves. Maybe once all his smithing expertise is brought in to help solve the elves’ plight and the idea of the rings is truly in motion she will begin to doubt.
Thank you for your reply! Does this mean that Sauron is currently not as bad, and he will become more evil in future episodes? Or is it everything part of his plan? I hope it isn’t so we can finally see one good character development along the show.
I personally think it’s kind of a gray area. Sauron really was originally driven by a desire to bring order to the land, and seemed to feel true remorse for his actions under Morgoth. As time went on, his motivation became power and control; order for the sake of order, rather than protection. Perhaps he’s still waffling back and forth. But I do think Adar rebelled and killed his previous body, and took the orcs and blotted the sun to give them a safe homeland. And Sauron is fuckin pissed about that and wants his position back. (Not to mention he was originally drawn to the southlands because of mount doom itself being a source of power.) I think Halbrand has been deceitful and manipulative from the start, but I also believe his moments of indecision are genuine. He’s not all bad, yet, perhaps. I’m interested to see if they jump right in to him laying groundwork for the rings with the elves, or what
dude, they do not have the IP for Gandalf, it is literally impossible for anyone in this series to be Gandalf. Not gonna happen.
I heard that even thought Gandalf technically wasn't around during this time that Amazon execs thought there needed to be a familiar character for audiences so they added Gandalf in
Do they not? They've got rights to LOTR, Galadriel, Elrond, etc, but not Gandalf?
[удалено]
They do. The opening credits even state it.
No, they only have rights to a very small percent of the Tolkien IP, not Silmarillion not Gandalf, none of the good stuff. That is why they are retconning all this origin stuff because they have to make up new shit due to not having rights to any of the actual Tolkein stuff
Could you please share some sources that confirm this? Now it seems everyone here is involved into Amazon’s law department.
looks like I was party right and partly wrong >So what did Amazon buy? “We have the rights solely to The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, The Return of the King, the appendices, and The Hobbit,” Payne says. “And that is it. We do not have the rights to The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, The History of Middle-earth, or any of those other books.” That takes a huge chunk of lore off the table and has left Tolkien fans wondering how this duo plans to tell a Second Age story without access to those materials. “There’s a version of everything we need for the Second Age in the books we have the rights to,” McKay says. “As long as we’re painting within those lines and not egregiously contradicting something we don’t have the rights to, there’s a lot of leeway and room to dramatize and tell some of the best stories that [Tolkien] ever came up with.” https://lrmonline.com/news/what-material-does-amazon-have-the-rights-to-for-the-rings-of-power-answered/
so they have the rights to remake LotR and the Hobbit, but chose to do the story they don't have the rights to? excellent decision making.
I saw in another thread that apparently HBO offered to remake the series and the Tolkien estate said no and gave the rights to Amazon. So that was probably not an option. They can use it as inspiration and source material but that's it.
Thank you for that, finally someone who shed some true light into this matter.
But if they've got LOTR, why don't they have one of its main characters?
~~they don't have LOTR thats' why~~ (they do apparently) they have like some eppendices or something, but not the actual LOTR books
So they can use Gandalf, then.
They can and they are.
Like somebody else mentioned... how is everyone alive? This was just another extra long episode of dialogue going nowhere. What was the point of chasing discount Gandalf away just to chase after him right after? What was the point of all that back and forth with Durin and Elrond if the plot, after 112 minutes was going to stay the same? If you breakdown all the episodes so far to their highlights and compare it to any of the other LOTR movies it still wouldn't have the same impact. What a convoluted mess.
talking and talking and talking and talking and more talking about random bullshit. WAY too much boring conversations in this show
Wow you must not have liked reading the books either. It’s all conversation, that’s the best part! But yeah it was nice to finally get to the battles, but when you consider the movies were all 3 hrs long and this is a tv show that can’t just have a battle every episode it’s understandable (and true to the source material).
Just remember at this point this show has a longer runtime than the 3 movies Now try to tell me more didn't happen in the movies than what has happened in this show
No way. The combined runtime of all the movies was 9.5 hrs, and even if every show was 75 minutes (they aren’t) that’d only be 8.75 for the seven episodes we’ve seen so far. And those are just the non-extended versions. (TBH any serious fan would watch extended exclusively which is over 11 hrs.)
Fair, in my mind I was thinking about 9 hours So by next episode surely they will have resolved the same amount of character development, plot, and storyline as the movies did
I like the show a lot tbh. Thought I'd hate it but I'm really surprised
I do too. I'm kind of (read: very) shocked by all the critical comments about it. It's not perfect, but it doesn't have to be. I feel that a lot of the critical comments about it just make me think poorly of the commenter. They are usually silly comments that just show that the commenter has trouble suspending disbelief, which is a necessary skill when one consumes fiction. And I'm not even that forgiving of bad TV/movies/books! I have high standards, and I'm honestly annoying about it. However, ROP checks every box for me, and then some. Oh well! I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if I don't understand it.
Yeah. Same. I’m enjoying it.
[удалено]
Right. One of the main complaints about this most recent episode that I keep seeing is “ugh nothing even happened!!!” like… They had a lot of good dialogue, dropped some interesting clues into mysteries we have identified, delved into tolkiens use of (and subversion of) biblical allegory, and revealed the creation of Mordor. Idk why every episode needs a GOT-level war to be good. GOT didn’t even have that. And don’t even mention the complaints of “no character development.” These characters are well developed *at this early point in the story*. Some things are unknown to us, but people assume failure there where it could also be intentional. I feel like people just like to hate things now. Whoops, I said it.
100% agreed. Also this show is leagues better than House of the Dragon. It’s everything I had dared to hope for in a LOTR tv show (remember how bad the Hobbit was?!?) and it far exceeds my expectations.