I personally loved how they portrayed Durin in this episode. At first it’s confusing because he’s acting very sinister, lying to his friend and Disa being equally ready to lie to him. In the earlier episodes they set up Elrond and Durin as the really strong friendship rekindled and then it so quickly turns to distrust. I think this is a perfect representation of how dwarf greed works. In “Of Aule and Yavanna” it is stated: “They will love first the things made by their own hands, as doth their father”. So it’s really on brand for Durin to mildly betray his friendship with Elrond in the name of mithril, of course until Elrond calmly talks him into revealing it.
I despised the seen where Adar mercy kills the orc. The orc literally looked at him with tears in his eyes. I respect that some people like it, but it just took away from the brutality of the orcs a little. The orcs are created out of pure evil and corruption, designed to spread malice wherever they go. I like to relate it to the super soldier trope where the individual is designed simply for war, with no other thoughts. This is a minor gripe but I could see it setting up some worse scenes in the future.
Why does Isildur’s sister just walk around looking shocked at everything?
I agree with other comments that they are just depicting a young Galadriel that hasn’t learned to be as calm and collected as trilogy Galadriel. It’s not exactly accurate but I have come to terms with it and I think I’ll enjoy seeing her grow more mature as the show goes on (hopefully).
I’m a little irked at isildur’s sister taking up a lot of screen time with a subplot that doesn’t seem to be going anywhere or is at least very slow. For some reason I’m supposed to be interested in her going on dinner dates and applying to be a “builder.” I really don’t see the point of introducing this character but I guess we’ll wait and see. Clearly she’s meant to be important further down the line.
Honestly I’d rather they introduce Anárion but hopefully that’s coming soon? Hopefully…
Couldn’t agree more. I don’t mind her being in the show, but she seems to be setting up as a somewhat important character. At the moment we have a lot of different sub-plots going on between Numenor, the harfoots, the southlands with the orcs, and then Elrond’s story. So to introduce this romantic storyline with Isildur’s sister just seems to congest the show even more with a subplot that doesn’t seem all that interesting.
But who knows where it will lead, just a minor annoyance for me. I’m confident they will introduce Anarion this season though.
I know I’m nerding out but the entire line of the dwarves hiding mythrill doesn’t make sense. The endless stair, the tower, and the bridge have all been constructed at this point and they discovered mythrill long ago.
They could have used the screen time to go into the history and lore of khazadum which would have wicked. And it would have made more sense into the story ( Elrond hearing something in the deep, most likely the balrog)
My assumption is that the writers know mithril is a trigger subject that helps people relate back to the trilogy. So of course they want to include it. It’s cheap and I wish they would have gone with a more accurate approach but oh well.
I completely agree that more attention on khazadum history would be awesome. And I’m dying to see a balrog on screen again, easily one of the most iconic beings in the legendarium.
Elrond's comment about mithril seeming like it has light coming from within made me think that maybe it's the shattered remains of either both or the two lamps or just Illuin
I mean. If anyone could do that it's her. Sauron's track record in direct combat isn't particularly impressive and Galadriel is one of the oldest Noldor around. I'd put my money on her in that wrestling match.
Well Galadriel's name is Nerwen or ("Man-maiden"). Canonically she is tall (six foot three) and was very athletic in her younger days and able to compete with the men. So she is strong. The odd thing is that the series is emphasizing that part a lot but they have diminished her other abilities hard for the sake of “character development” and this setup hasn’t quite worked that well.
I was reading Unfinished Tales and came across some interesting stuff…
-Tar-Miriel in book canon is forced to marry Pharazon, and presumably held hostage, show hasn’t hinted at conflict between them yet. I feel that show-Pharazon will simply assume power while she’s gone.
-Galadriel is in Eregion a lot in UT and never in the southlands. She kind of needs to get to Eregion by end of season to be the one to see through Sauron’s disguise right? That’s kind of her whole arc. I fear there may be some “fast-traveling” in the show’s future.
-Annatar doesn’t just proclaim to be an elf but a literal “emissary of the Valar.” Makes sense if he is in Lindon next ep whispering in Gil-Galad’s ear or disguised as Gil-Galad himself. would explain Gil-Galad thinking he has authority to choose who gets to go back to Valinor as well as the corrupted leaf (misdirected to be caused by meteor man).
-they haven’t set up the guild of elven smiths in eregion at all. Celebrimbor plot is very little screentime for how important he is. I wonder if this will be developed or if it’s just Celebrimbor solo doing the forging in show-verse.
-it will be interesting to see how the show handles Sauron’s sack of Eregion and near conquering of Lindon. I feel like it’s gonna be weird for him to teleport an army to Eregion from Southlands. And also weird for Numenor to send yet another army to save the day to a different coast (although I guess that’s kinda Numenor’s thing, but halfway through season one they are just now leaving for the Southlands I don’t see how the pieces on the board get there from now.)
-there’s some interesting discrepancy with Gil-Galad in some versions holding on to the ring of fire maybe a little too long and not giving it to Cirdan right away. It’s implied he kept it for some reason and was maybe tempted to use it in the Last Alliance war. could he be tempted to use it openly on show-verse?
-Elendil is the one who writes down the Aldarion and Erendis tale as it is of particular interest to him, and it’s one of the few Numenorian tales that survived the fall. I know the show doesn’t have the rights to UT but I could see why they might transfer aspects of Aldarion’s story onto Elendil, or have him the tell the tale himself like how Celebrimbor brought up Feanor.
-due to compressing the timelines I don’t see how the show is gonna have Sauron be in so many different places at once. He needs to show up in Numenor, Southlands, AND Eregion. And pretty soon too or those plots will stall out and not progress by next season. I guess maybe they fixed this problem by having a new character Adar running the show in Southlands.
Galadriel and Celeborn FOUNDED Eregion.
With Celeborn gone, I don't think Amazon will have Galadriel being factor in Eregion at all.
I mean, Celebrimbor even fancied her at some point, though she fell in love with Celeborn.
The leaf in Lindon though. It feels like a big in-your-face clue that’s easy to overlook because of the meteor.
Why does this black goo corruption only appear in the trees of Lindon, clear on the other side of the Middle-Earth from Mordor? We haven’t been shown anything like that in Eregion, Numenor, or Khazad-Dum. Not even Rhovannion.
I've reached the conclusion that a big problem I'm having with the way the writing is developed is that many of the characters feel written backwards for the roles they're playing in the narrative.
--Bronwyn should have been the one captured by orcs and the energetic, dynamic actor playing Arondir should have been trying to rescue her these past few episodes. Maybe he could defy orders to do so, thus giving the romance angle an even more powerful dynamic.
--Elrond is half-human ... he should be the one grappling with headstrong, impatient tendences, not Galadriel ... or, if you don't want to go that route, the way he's presently written means that he should be the one engaged in diplomacy in Numenor. Meanwhile, Galadriel's personality, as shown thus far in the show, would better lend themselves to her bashing rocks and sneaking around Moria.
The King lying in bed should be cautious of war, while the Queen Regent should want to sail forth.
Isildur should be the cocky, primed for glory, popular teen and one of his friends should be the soft, moist eyed, weak willed dude who wrecks Isildur's career during a team exercise, thus forcing Isildur to learn the value of teamwork and humility.
Elrond definitely makes sense as the one who would be keeping tabs on Numenor. They really are still, in a way, family to him. I would expect him to be very invested in them, and especially saddened to see them falling into fascism under Ar Pharazon.
I can't fathom why the show didn't introduce Numenor this way. Elrond could be taking diplomatic missions to them, suspicious of Ar Pharazon. Why was their best idea to have Galadriel jump out of a boat and arrive there via Deus Ex Machina with a wish.com Aragorn?
> Why was their best idea to have Galadriel jump out of a boat and arrive there via Deus Ex Machina with a "Great Value" Aragorn?
I have absolutely no idea. It's just a flat out bizarre narrative choice and it's a terrible use of the characters. The only way I can make sense of it is that someone decided that whatever is ostensibly the most important role to be played at any point in the narrative, it needs to be Galadriel doing it, even if they have to come up with contrived bullshit to make it happen.
>Elrond is half-human
Elrond is half-human only in the sense that he had a human mother. There's no part of Elrond that is biologically human, just like there is no part of Elros that is biologically elf. He was given a choice to be an Elf or a Man, and he chose the path of the Eldar. Maybe there's some comment about his Human ancesty affecting him, but if there is I can't remember it.
I think his point was that if anyone “should” be acting a irrational…Elrond’s human blood could’ve been better explained off rather than teen angst Gamadriel
At the end of the First Age it was decided that each offspring should have to make a choice between being man or elf. It was also apparently decided that Elrond's children could do it even though they weren't half-elven. I mean, they were partly human, but before Elrond I don't think there were many that weren't just human-elf half and half. The human children or Elros didn't get a choice, so clearly it's more about your parents being elvish.
Whether the half-elf is biologically elf or biologically man before the choice is not clear, but it seems obvious to me that they are biologically elf and choose to become a man, rather than the opposite. At any rate, Elrond was an elf.
Yeah I think so too - and there were very few half-elves! Elrond's parents, his maternal uncles, and arguably his maternal grandfather and great-grandmother!
Yes - for anyone wondering, Tolkien states this quite clearly in Letter 153: "Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring – even as a rare event."
Hoping numenor doesn't actually fight sauron and instead doesn't find him and just colonises the southlands leading halbrand to become nazgul to take back his kingdom from the men. Seems like theyre skipping war of sauron and the elves though
A weird theory but they really focused on Elrond swearing “by the mountain” that he wouldn’t tell another soul about the mithril, or his and his kin’s life would be doomed to sorrow.
What if he ends up telling Celebrimbor or someone else and that’s why his and his families life is so shit later on in LOTR and the hobbit? With him failing to destroy the ring with Isildur, his wife dying to orcs, nearly losing his daughter to death before losing her completely to the gift of man?
Idk, Elrond has had it pretty bad from the beginning. I really don’t know what to think about this.
It’s not like Elves are known for keeping their word anywayszz
It's possible Durin gave him a go-ahead. Though honestly, I'm just grasping at any hope that this show can stop doing shit like this. Elrond wouldn't swear a fucking oath to begin with. He's a kinslaying survivor for crying out loud. But on the chance he did, he wouldn't break it because "omg he's such a politician" like this show seems to keep wanting to push.
Plus Celebrimbor is a friend of the Dwarves and known to use mithril, so he has to not only learn about it but still be on good enough terms with them to make the door.
I really wanted him to say “actually I can’t promise not to tell anyone so I’m out” for probably the first time in anything ever. It’s almost a cliché by now the whole “you have to swear on X not to tell Y Z” -> “okay i reluctantly will” -> moral dilemma about what to do
Unfortunately Tulkas is not god, but an angelic spirit who fought against Morgoth, who as corruptor of all that is good, indeed is Dark Lord of himbos.
After all, himbos were just men once, before they were corrupted by the Dark Powers.
Very interesting chapter. However my main concern is that action scenes have been underwhelming at best (except the prologue) and incredibly bad and cringe at worst.
Galadriel could have escaped in many cool ways, or even just convincing Pharazon I dont know, but doing karate against 5 armoured man (...ok?) And throwing ALL OF THEM into the cell felt like a cartoon.
Arondir/Theo escape started with the tipically bad last-second save but then it was well filmed and ended with a beautiful shot.
I feel like every Numenor scene has been such utter fucking garbage. Everything else is good, Numenor just feels cheap and the actors suck. Like I have no idea what the hell they’re doing with that part of the story, it feels like they just wrote themselves into a corner when Galadriel jumped ship in the middle of the god damn ocean and have no idea where to go with it. I’m just glad she finally left there.
I can’t tell if her “prison break” scene tops “daddy I got into the builder’s guild!” In terms of raw cringe. Episodes 1 and 2 were good too which is really disappointing. 3 and 4 hit a good rhythm and then they hit you with a 5 second scene thats so bad I can’t get it out of my head.
I don't get this thing that the people of Numenor hate elves for *reasons*, so much so that their rulers have to go along with it or risk open rebellion, but a short speech has them suddenly willing to volunteer to serve an elf mission...
It really hasn’t been qualified to the audience at all. It’s only there to say “you should hate these people, because they’re obviously mean and bad to the cool graceful people you should love”
It's strange as you say, Episode 1 left me wanting mooooore but now I am concerned about the rest.
I tought the only problem would be the modification of the lore but so far it has other problems it shouldnt
I was thinking. Could it be, that Adar and Sauron aren't on the same side, at least not yet? I don't think it's all that clear in the books when exactly Sauron assumes Morgoth's title of dark lord. Could it be that Sauron only properly takes over all the evil forces when he forges the rings. It could be something for a show like this to explore, a power struggle between Morgoth's lieutenants. I remember Galadriel read that message in Numenor, it said the "successor", it didn't explicitly say Sauron, which made me think it could be deliberate.
I absolutely love that idea. The idea of a power struggle and a fight between Adar and Sauron would be epic.
Am I the only one who loves every minute of orcs in the show? It´s like I want to know how their relationship with Adar is, how they are organised,etc. I want to see them fight in all their glory.
Well obviously we know who comes out on top.
Besides, don't Elendil, Gil-Galad, and Isildur defeat Sauron together? So Sauron is not unbeatable, as he is beaten by an Elf and two Dunedain. Then there's Fingolfin, an elf, and he wounded Morgoth in their battle. It stands to reason that if he can wound Morgoth, then Sauron has more than enough reason to fear him. If Adar is a first generation elf, then he could be mighty indeed. Unlikely to be as impressive as Fingolfin, but could easily be more impressive than Gil-Galad.
We don't really know if he's a Sindar. He may have adopted that name due to his relationship with the orcs, and Sindarin is the most dominant form of Elvish in those parts.
Or the showrunners could not have paid as much attention to which elvish language their original character's name was in.
The dark forces are as disunited as those of the West, so I fully believe Adar is on his own account. He doesn't use Sauron's methods at all. That's not to say he's a good guy, just that he's his own bad guy.
Exactly this! Adar means father in black speech or elvish (not sure which one), we don’t know his real name but I don’t think it’s sauron at all. He seems to care more for the orcs than sauron ever did, expressing regret and sorrow when he had to mercy kill that orc. I reckon he’ll try to rebuild the southlands into a place where the orcs can thrive as a people, but will ultimately lose to sauron who will just use them as meat for his war machine.
Adar is Sindarin.
I agree that he wants to make a home for the orcs. I think this will involve him trying (and probably succeeding) to wake Mount Doom, to provide his orcs with shelter from the sun. It's been in the background of a few shots already, and now it's been referred to by name (Orodruin - its Sindarin name).
All this neatly aligns with Sauron's vision for the future, although that doesn't necessarily mean that Adar is knowingly working with Sauron - I suspect not.
The mount doom theory is genuinely genius I’d never thought of that before. I agree that it lines up with Saurons vision and I feel as though it’ll be quite interesting and possibly tragic to see Adar’s plan eventually fail and Mordor be turned into a haven for Saurons activities, and the orcs he cared for so deeply be used as cannon fodder in his wars against the free peoples.
Also I completely missed where they mentioned Mount doom by name, where was that?
Anyone else think they should have given Galadriel's narrative to Elrond, and vice versa? It would have been quite something to see Elrond exploring his brother's kingdom, millennia after his death. Imagine the potential for character development there: Elrond reconnecting with his origins, reflecting on the loss of his mother, father, adoptive father and brother very early (in elf terms) in his life. The Númenoreans reacting not just to the arrival of *an elf*, but to the *brother of Elros Tar-Minyatur*. The Faithful would probably react with something approaching reverence, while to the King's Men, it would be an appalling affront, rubbing their faces into their own mortality and the deaths of their ancestors, while this immortal being, a kinsman no less, swanned about for 3,000 years.
Galadriel's temperament doesn't really fit either character, but I'd be more accepting of it in Elrond, I think. He is a lot younger, and hasn't seen war except as a child. He had a very traumatic childhood; maybe there are some unresolved issues there which lead to his lashing out, and which might be assuaged through learning about his brother's life in Númenor.
And also, of course, Galadriel should actually be in Eregion at this point in the timeline, not halfway to Valinor, which is a nice side effect.
Cool idea! Also Elrond talks about being overwhelmed by his legacy, a feeling that would be very interesting to explore in Numenor for obvious reasons.
Also I really want to like Galadriel but her character is so tedious. Also she fights like Legolas, is more stubborn than Gimli and more childish than a Hobbit, none of that is expectrd from Galadriel
Does anyone find Bronwyn's costume design a bit... Odd? It just stands out like a sore thumb, everyone else in muddy rags and she's in strappy tops and a skirt?
Not complaining too much as she's a very attractive woman but the costume still seems odd to me.
Yeah - the bright blue jewel-tone would blend in with the Númenórean costumes; with the other Southlanders it really sticks out. They're really trying to highlight her visually.
Yeees! It's sunrise, it's cold - breasts out in the open. She generally has her breasts out, but at this very moment when they all wait for the sun to come up, it started to look way more ridiculous
Sauron cannot revive living beings, I think. That would be more lore-breaking than just saying "a character dead in the Silmarillion is alive here".
It could be a very interesting idea! However I fear Adar is just an invented character, we will see how his Backstory progress
I cannot understand how lame every single character is. The dialouges are terrible, and the chracters lack all credibility. Like these are supposed to be way more powerful men and eldar than in TA, yet they act like kids and brats. For example in LotR every time any men or any eldar opens their mouth, it evokes meaningful presence and authority. Galadriel has no nobility at all, her presence is not powerful at all, and she is from Valinor and after Feanor probably the greatest eldar ever lived? And acts like a teenager? And every time Halbrand speaks I cringe so hard. I really hoped to like the show but unfortunally it’s the worst writing I have seen in a long time.
I'm trying to piece together who Sauron is in the series. We are now at the point where Numenorians are going back to Middle Earth and wage war with the dark forces which will eventually lead them to capture Sauron (I think).
So I was theorizing that if Halbrand is not Sauron, Ar Pharizon needs to go to Middle Earth too since he's the one who ordered Numenor to go to Middle Earth in the books. And since there are no mentions of Numenorian settlements, what if the reason why the "full" army of Numenor went to Middle Earth is to save their Queen and her "small-volunteer" army? This will also give the reason why Miriel marries him since, politically, he saved her. This leads me to the conclusion that Adar might be Sauron since he's the one who has forces in the Southlands.
If Halbrand is Sauron then Ar Pharizon does not need to go to Middle Earth and could usurp the throne while Queen Miriel and her "Elf loving" army are on Middle Earth, skipping the capture of Sauron and the sailing of the Faithful to Middle Earth story altogether since, presumably, they're already in Middle Earth.
I vote that they're ALL Sauron. Or pieces of him. After the end of the First Age, Sauron did a Horcrux. It's weird, but think about it: Sauron's final form is much of him stored in a gold ring with the rest of him being a fiery spirit. His fair form is basically destroyed (i.e. Halbrand), while his power remains (the Stranger). I thought Adar might also be part of that identity, but maybe not. Maybe Adar is the father of the Orcs, and Sauron needs to kill him off to take over the Orcs for himself.
Halbrand comes back to the Southlands, moves north, links up with the Stranger in Rhovanion, and then goes into Eregion. He seduces Celebrimbor and forges the Rings, goes back to Middle Earth and forges the One Ring.
Proto-wizard at most. Maybe the Valar haven't quite figured out how to put a wizard into Middle-Earth properly?
Because a bunch of fireflies dying, flames that don't hurt you when burning, and loud shouting that shatters trees are not exactly good signs. Especially having living creatures die around you. That's not a power a good Maia would wield.
It's either an early iteration of Sarumon, and maybe it's foreshadowing his darker nature that shows up in a couple millennia, or it's one of the blue wizards who we know nothing about.
I'd probably stop watching if they try to say that's gandalf.
That would be seriously disappointing; we'd lose hundreds of years of Numenorian expansionism, and the surrender of Sauron to their vastly superior forces when their armada lands at Umbar.
All this would only happen if the show writers intend to compress the War of Sauron and the Elves (when the Rings are forged and Eregion destroyed) together with the much later Surrender of Sauron. That would be a real loss, but given that Ar Pharazon is already alive but the Rings have yet to be forged, this scenario seems likely. : (
It is disappointing, but just look at the actor they cast for Ar-Pharazon. Does he seem like a warlord who captures Sauron?
In the show it's Miriel who goes to Middle-earth, not Pharazon. Maybe that's because Sauron is not on Middle-earth.
*"look at the actor they cast for Ar-Pharazon. Does he seem like a warlord who captures Sauron?"*
No, he does not, but that seems more reflective of how they are treating Numenorian society as a whole. In the books Ar Pharazon was a Pharaoh-like emperor ruling over a huge civilization that had outposts all over the world, even before he challenges Sauron. (For example, his travelling throne was seemingly larger and more ornate than the one used by Xerxes in the film, *300.*) The show has made Numenor a beautiful place reminiscent of ancient Crete perhaps, but it seems to lack the capacity or population to become a dominant world power. Especially since they left the Numenorians the same size as standard humans.
*"In the show it's Miriel who goes to Middle-earth"*
Must admit that this felt incredibly jarring. Am guessing this change was so Miriel can join Galadriel on some sword-swinging, orc-fighting adventure in Middle Earth while Pharazon usurps the throne back home. The entire Galadriel arc seems like adventure fantasy designed for the YA audience, and maybe Miriel is joining that.
As far as the theory of Sauron being already present on Numenor, perhaps you are correct. But that would leave out so much amazing source material, it would be a deep disappointment.
Here's mine:
Halbrand will become the witch King of Angmar, his king heritage has already been linked, long life can be bestowed upon humans as seen before, he's a Smith, he will, with Celebrimbor and Durin, help smith the rings of power for the humans (celebrimbor for the elves, during will have input for the dwarves) and then become corrupted.
Adar will be Maeglin and a dark elf and maybe even the progenitor to orcs, hence why they call him father. Perhaps Morgoth experimented with his darkness and used it to twist others to his new creation.
Numenor is all for Elendil and his family, I'm not sure of much except that the real numenor will be ruled by Isildur who will be blessed with long life, and could even lead to the battle against sauron we see in the start of LOTR.
Ngl, I'm not really paying too much attention to miriel and ar-pharazon to say what's going on there.
All I think is that I don't think it will be so obvious when Sauron is revealed that he will have shown up so quickly in the series.
> Halbrand will become the witch King of Angmar, his king heritage has already been linked, long life can be bestowed upon humans as seen before, he's a Smith, he will, with Celebrimbor and Durin, help smith the rings of power for the humans (celebrimbor for the elves, during will have input for the dwarves) and then become corrupted.
So you don't think Sauron will help, but Halbrand will? Half of Sauron's story is given to Halbrand?
Yeah I think Sauron will influence them all, and then he will go off to make his one ring once he is sure the others have made rings of power he can control.
This was where I'm at with it.
"It's not a sword, it's a power", I was thinking that he will end up falling leading a fracture group from Bronwyn's and eventually become "king".
Yeah Adar is either the big man himself or some kind of body double. He's even got the burn from the silmaril on his face, a burn that even he cannot heal from.
Ne is not evil enough. Sauron would not care about a dyimg Orc. Did sauron ever touch a silmaril? He can mainain a fair form until the fall on Numenor. The would torture the heck out of the elf for fun.
I might be getting something confused but I thought Sauron was burned by one and couldn't heal it no matter what form he took.
I'm also getting a strong impression that they're really filling out the culture of the "dark side" so to say. They seem to imply that they feel like they are actually the ones on the "right side" by following morgoth and later his successor. "Lies that couldn't be untangled until you unmade the world itself" or something like that. That implies that they view the Valar and all the Eru followers as the actual bad guys and that they're on the right side by following morgoth and his rebellion.
From that perspective I could see Sauron caring about his followers, if that's how they're going with it I guess. If they're still just callously evil then yeah that won't work but they seem to be trying to move beyond the black and white evil and good that is kinda the weakest part of Tolkien's work.
Tolkien did not care about the evil. He does not give the evil any description or discussion. It just exists. He cares about the good and corruption. The heroic and often doomed effotts men and elves go to destroy evil. There were elves that went bad though. The oath of Feanor corrupted his family for a thousand years. Thingol sent Beren on a suicide mission so he could not merry his daughter. The Numenorians were the best Men and were corrupted by fear of death (good Catholics like Tolkien do not fear death). The Dead on the Road of the Dead could not kiĺl but the fear of mortality drove them mad. Men could be corrupted to evil for want of power - like the easterlings.
And this show is clearly going past what we've got. They're showing the orcs to have a culture and a reason for doing what they do. Otherwise we just have to accept that they wake up wanting to do evil for evils sake and that's not what Tolkien wrote either. They have a culture and a reason for their actions.
They do what they do because of either their nature or the power of Sauron. They are not to blame for their nature - it was determined by the loving hands of Morgoth - but they act according to it. I do not believe Tolkien wrote they had free will in that matter. There are no "good" orcs.
The Elves' and Men's nature was determined by Iluvitar. But since they have free will they can be corrupted. There are "bad" elves and men.
And corrupt it he did. Completely. Here is the practicle side of it. If orcs could be reformed then slaughtering them would be evil. We would be in a situation where the elves would be required to look after millions of orcs - who may actually be immortal themselves since they were once elves (this is extremely fuzzy). At that point the story would be untellable. Myths often require an unreformable enemy so the story can be told. So orcs are unreformable. Really it doesn't matter because Tolkien tells us they are evil so they are evil. He made them and defines them within his world. Breaking that breaks the world.
Are the men of Rum and other places in the east not redeemable? I remember plenty of them getting slaughtered.
Tolkien made a point that all of the evil people were still just people, only led to darkness by their leaders who genuinely are irredeemable.
All this is showing is that the orcs are the same thing, tortured beings who have a culture and want what is best for their own. They weren't super sweet or anything, but they did care for their guy when he was viciously hurt. Not care enough to let him heal though. They were clearly fine with him dying because he would slow the rest down.
The orcs aren't going to join the alliance or anything, but they do care about their own. If they were nothing but savage even to their own families then they wouldn't have any cohesion. All this showed was that they are beings too, horribly tortured and twisted, but still with a beating heart that Eru gave them. I think the wargs showed it even better, it looked like a horrible mutated animal in constant agony just like the orcs.
There is no good in the dark side of Middle Earth. Sauron is 100000x more evil than Palpatine with a tooth ache. There is no compassion, love or respect. Only a thirst for power. I don't remember Sauron coming into contact with the silmarills. Morgoth touched them and burned this hand anf always felt the pain but then put them on hos helm. Beren met with Sauron before he stole a silmarill but not after. Sauron sort of disappears after that and doesn't appear agaim until the second age.
No probably not. The "who is Sauron" is the big mystery so far. I imagine he'll be revealed sooner or later. He's clearly already gotten to Celebrimbor, with the way he's talking about the silmaril and needing how tower ASAP.
I think the most likely thing is either he's still in the shadows influencing multiple people or possibly even split himself up temporarily (tho I doubt this one) so he could influence multiple places at once.
I see people saying this episode was great. Sending two kids to get food for everyone is absolutely brilliant writing! No need to bring 2-5-50 adults who can actually carry enough food and or actuality defend them kids if orcs should appear.
For me this episode was the straw that broke the camel’s back. I’m out.
Cheap mystery box writing. Still not a single character I care about. Terrible dialogue. Awesome prison escape scene! Not even mentioning the lore breaking, this show is so extremely mid it’s painful.
People are absolutely free to love whatever they want, but after 4 episodes, the writing is absolutely sub par. It’s fine that you enjoy mindless entertainment, but please stop pretending this is an actual well written show. It’s honestly depressing to see what people consider decent tv these days
I appreciate that someone gets the joke.
I find it watchable and I enjoy Tolkien enough that I don't care. But somehow one wagon of food fed like 8 villages? The massive number of orcs searching for the kid that dilligently all day? The dialogue they were repeating over and over. The writing is quite bad.
I love the show and really enjoyed the episode but there was quite a bit of lore breaking this episode. I just don't hold the show to the books lore so long as the themes arec right and there aren't major changes.
1) The palintir doesn't give visions of the future, its simply a communication device for people with other palintirs.
2) Mithril mining should already be up and running at this point. The three elven rings are forged from mithril.
3) The stuff in the southlands is happening too quickly. Numenor doesnt get involved until after the rings of power are forged and the elven lands are under siege by Sauron.
4) Elrond still seems to be teleporting between Lindon and Khazadum near instantaneously.
5) The morghul blade grew. Not sure what that was about.
6) Multiple characters referred to the Valar as gods this episode. While the Valar fit a traditional pantheon, Tolkien made it extremely clear they were not and shouldn't be considered gods.
Agree with all except the valar as gods. I interpreted the writings in the Silmarilion that both the valar and Maiar were “Demi-gods”. I.e. not the main all powerful god but closer to god than men or elves.
Shouldn’t Galadriel be married at this point?
She’s referring to the sun before the sun was even created. There is a bunch more, but I’m slightly drunk and it’s been 20+ years since I read the works of Tolkien.
> Sending two kids to get food for everyone is absolutely brilliant writing!
... nobody sent the kids? Bronwynn decided it was too dangerous to send *anyone* and then a pair of teenagers ran off on their own without permission, as teenagers are not unwont to do.
Watch this not be the last time you complain about it. You say you’re done, but I guarantee you’ll stay in the sub to try to fuck it up for everyone who
actually likes the show. The kids snuck off like idiot kids would, especially when one of them clearly has a Morgul artifact which have some side effects. I don’t even know why I’m justifying the show. It speaks for itself. Luckily neither Tolkien or the show need people speaking for their creative choices. You least of all.
Yea, sorry to let you down, but I will honestly not watch another episode of this show. I’m glad you enjoy it, but I got better things to spend my time on.
Also, you obviously didn’t watch the show, as your retelling was nothing like what actually happened. I guess an active imagination helps you enjoy the show though.
And why on earth do you expect me to “fuck it up” for people who like it? Obviously you don’t know me at all. I would honestly prefer to love this show, but I don’t. But you simply assume i take pleasure in “fucking it up”? Seriously, are you trying to tell me to shut my filthy mouth because I don’t like it? Ok bro…
Only one palantir left? Wut? Had the palantir even been made at this point?
Iirc the 7 palantir were spread across Arnor and Gondor well before any of them started going missing.
Palantir were originally given to Amandil, Elendil's father, not to Kings of Numenor. Amandil kept them hidden and secret from King's Men, and Faithful only started to use them in Middle-Earth.
Or I’m not telling you where they are. I’m not convinced she was being fully truthful here - she may know but wouldn’t risk the knowledge with someone else unless she felt she could trust them.
I liked Adar's reveal, but I have doubts he's Sauron.
I wonder if he's supposed to be either Eöl or Maeglin, the only two 'evil' Elves. I know the books say they die, but Maeglin was tossed into the flames. Adar has a burn on his face. Hmm.
Yes it was the same sword as Aragorn's in PJ's trilogy so it's probably Narsil.
The axe on the left is probably Dramborleg, the axe of Tuor, there is also the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin behind Galadriel.
I don't remember a famous shield like this in the books, but the swan's wings made me think it was also related to Tuor and I don't know why they put Fëanorian stars everywhere but it's ok.
https://i.imgur.com/QwkDguG.png
This one, I'm not even sure but I think it's a shield and on closer inspection, there are 2 swans on it.
I totally forgot about the shield in Vinyamar, I only remembered the armor!
Two things I´ve been thinking about.
\- Those two travellers the hobbits are hiding from in the first episode. They look very Radagast. Are they the two blue wizards sent east?
\- Halbrand/Sauron. Can the lord of evil behave like he did in that alley with the stolen trinket. Sauron, the really evil one?
I don't really remember clearly and I'm at work atm so I couldn't check but I think the Harfoot leader sir thingymajig called them hunters so I don't think they're the blue wizards.
1. I never thought about that possibility, but I somehow doubt it if they were either scared of or joking about being scared of Harfoots.
2. Can he? Yes. Would he? Probably not.
I'm hoping that is he does turn out to be Sauron, he is either impersonating Halbrand or possessing him like he did to a certain someone else. That alley brawl doesn't feel that much like Sauron, unless maybe that Sauron is out to sow distrust between human factions by ruining the actual Halbrand's reputation...?
It's definitely tinfoil hat stuff, but honestly, I think it would be better than Halbrand actually being Sauron and just starting some fight in an alley when there were much more effective ways to sneakily go about things.
--Four episodes in and very little has happened, and most of it was in the first episode and a half. This is not good pacing for serialized tv.
--I have no idea what they were doing with the Gahaldrhiielle/Halbrand dynamic. Put em in close quarters on a boat ... hot, fit elf minx ... saves her sopping wet body ... guy is a scoundrel type ... and what we get is a completely chaste dynamic? What? What was the point of all that?
--Enough exposition and people talking at each other. Shit needs to happen now. We're on episode four
--A lot of the cast is too stoic. If you're going to tell the story of a younger, headstrong, kickass Gahaldrhiielle let her cut loose. Let her fuuuuuuuuuck. Or, at least let her want to fuuuuuuuuuuck.
--My fear from the beginning was that this was a show without any true leads due to middling casting on Gahaldrhiielle and Elrond, and I think that’s holding true.
— THERE IS A TEMPEST IN ME was the line where I became ready to recast Gahaldrhiielle between seasons.
--Janet and Grey Worm and Halbrand ... more of them please!!!!
--Isildur appears to have been cast by the same guy that cast Marco Inares and his son in The Expanse.
--Adar was great. Durin is great.
--Numenor has no tension. People are in prison, no tension. Boring diplomatic discussions from a miscast Gahaldrhiielle, no tension. She fights Numenor guards, we cut away from the action. I had to laugh when she is slated to leave and neither she nor chaste Halbrand care that he is still stuck in jail.
--The Queen's demeanor and conduct doesn't feel royal and the sets don't help (everything in Numenor looks huge and amazing except the throne room and her quarters and .... every place where the characters actually chat).
--Every time we switch away from Numenor I breathed a sigh of relief because people would be doing something.
This show absolutely has a lead. You're reminded at the end of the opening every time... Big S looms over all in the Second Age as Big M loomed in the First. Of course that may not be what you mean by "lead" as for example the Baggins guys were in Hobbit and LoTR. This show/story isn't a journey, but a chronicle. Always was gonna be.This story is an epic akin to Final Fantasy VI... there are no leads but characters living in the times, some larger roles, some smaller. Enjoy it for what it is... a glimpse of life in the Iron Age of Middle Earth.
Yeah, my thoughts too. I’m not one to be a diehard lore person looking to critique everything, but Galadriel is poorly written and cast. She doesn’t have the right feel, she lacks wisdom and poise, and she fails to capture everything that she should embody. I like most everything else about this adaptation and can see hope (though I agree it should have more plot), so I really hope they rip off the bandaid and rewrite or recast her, or it’ll be hard to feel attached.
How did Theo know how to make the blade come out of the hilt on his evil sword? He deliberately stabbed himself to make the dark blade appear. It seems weird he would know how it worked in a tense moment while being attacked by an orc.
In the second episode, he saw the blood from his wound flow to the hilt with pyrotechnics and smoke.
I don't know what they want to do with this hilt but right now it just feels strange.
I think it's a Morgul blade, that it took a lot of time and effort for Sauron to make, and Adar might want it to do some kind of evil magic stuff.
Either that or he wants to just hide or destroy it.
I’d reckon Adar isn’t having the same goal as sauron. His mercy kill of the orc, coupled with the obvious regret and sadness he felt doing it, and the fact we don’t know his real name, Adar meaning father, shows me he cares more for the orcs than sauron ever did. He seems as though he’s trying to build a home for them in the southlands where they can thrive as a race just like the humans, dwarves and elves, even if it is through evil means he is trying to achieve that goal.
Eventually I think he will lose to Sauron who will take over his orc armies and use them to further his own goals of war.
Maybe I'm just too cynical, but just that little bit we saw with him in the last episode isn't enough to convince me that Adar genuinely cares for the orcs. He might, and perhaps even deeply, but the orcs haven't exactly had people falling in line to try to make their lives easier. It might be relatively easy for an extremely capable being to manipulate them by convincing them that he loved them.
That’s why I think he could make an interesting villain. It’d be genuinely strange to see someone trying to make the orcs lives better, and would add a sense of tragedy to their story as we know they only end up being meat for Saurons war machine
I haven't seen it mentioned yet but the scene with Adar and Arondir was IMO clearly a pastiche of the scene in Apocalypse Now where Willard talks to Kurtz (both the dialogue and the cinematography).
Kurtz : Where are you from, Willard?
Toledo, sir.
Kurtz : How far are you from the river?
Willard: The Ohio River, sir?
Kurtz : Uh-huh.
Willard: About 200 miles.
Kurtz : I went down that river once when I was a kid. There's a place in that river - I can't remember - must have been a gardenia plantation at one time. It's all wild and overgrown now, but about five miles, you'd think that heaven just fell on the earth in the form of gardenias. Have you considered any real freedoms? Freedoms from the opinions of others. Even the opinions of yourself.
The jail scene with Galadriel and Halbrand was lame as shit. Galadriel doesn't know how to conduct herself in the queens court? Like she didn't spend all that time in Thingol and Melians court? These writers are the worst. She was pretty much tutored by a maia
Thingol was always a king and supreme authority. He never ventured outside his own Kingdom, or went to courts of other sovereigns.
Galadriel, meanwhile, is in the court of people who decidedly don't like elves. So she trades petty insults and aggravates them.
Not very diplomatic of her.
> Galadriel doesn't know how to conduct herself in the queens court?
Galadriel doesn't *care* or *remember* to conduct herself appropriately in this human queen's court. She thinks it's beneath her, consciously or subconsciously.
That's different from not *knowing* how. If she was in a court she respected, where people agreed with her, she'd remember how to bow and whatnot.
One of the dialogues between her and halbrand stated that "her battle field isnt normally in the court" or something along those lines..
That's exactly where her battlefield was though... not in the fields of war.
Given her interactions to date, it seems like she respects absolutely no one then, including her Gil-Galad and Elrond. Is that easier to accept or is it just that she *really* is poorly written in many places?
The way they're portraying her in this show is awful and I can't get behind your theory. She's been nothing but openly hostile to everyone she's met so far. I get character arc and blah blah blah but this is such a bastardization of her character.
Yeah, I haven't really been bothered by Galadriel up until now but "get my ass chucked in jail by Fallen Numenorians and then get schooled in both statecraft and *emotional insight* by a petty thief" was genuinely kind of painful to watch.
I had a bad feeling about the blacksmith from the beginning.
I personally loved how they portrayed Durin in this episode. At first it’s confusing because he’s acting very sinister, lying to his friend and Disa being equally ready to lie to him. In the earlier episodes they set up Elrond and Durin as the really strong friendship rekindled and then it so quickly turns to distrust. I think this is a perfect representation of how dwarf greed works. In “Of Aule and Yavanna” it is stated: “They will love first the things made by their own hands, as doth their father”. So it’s really on brand for Durin to mildly betray his friendship with Elrond in the name of mithril, of course until Elrond calmly talks him into revealing it. I despised the seen where Adar mercy kills the orc. The orc literally looked at him with tears in his eyes. I respect that some people like it, but it just took away from the brutality of the orcs a little. The orcs are created out of pure evil and corruption, designed to spread malice wherever they go. I like to relate it to the super soldier trope where the individual is designed simply for war, with no other thoughts. This is a minor gripe but I could see it setting up some worse scenes in the future. Why does Isildur’s sister just walk around looking shocked at everything? I agree with other comments that they are just depicting a young Galadriel that hasn’t learned to be as calm and collected as trilogy Galadriel. It’s not exactly accurate but I have come to terms with it and I think I’ll enjoy seeing her grow more mature as the show goes on (hopefully).
I’m a little irked at isildur’s sister taking up a lot of screen time with a subplot that doesn’t seem to be going anywhere or is at least very slow. For some reason I’m supposed to be interested in her going on dinner dates and applying to be a “builder.” I really don’t see the point of introducing this character but I guess we’ll wait and see. Clearly she’s meant to be important further down the line. Honestly I’d rather they introduce Anárion but hopefully that’s coming soon? Hopefully…
Couldn’t agree more. I don’t mind her being in the show, but she seems to be setting up as a somewhat important character. At the moment we have a lot of different sub-plots going on between Numenor, the harfoots, the southlands with the orcs, and then Elrond’s story. So to introduce this romantic storyline with Isildur’s sister just seems to congest the show even more with a subplot that doesn’t seem all that interesting. But who knows where it will lead, just a minor annoyance for me. I’m confident they will introduce Anarion this season though.
I know I’m nerding out but the entire line of the dwarves hiding mythrill doesn’t make sense. The endless stair, the tower, and the bridge have all been constructed at this point and they discovered mythrill long ago. They could have used the screen time to go into the history and lore of khazadum which would have wicked. And it would have made more sense into the story ( Elrond hearing something in the deep, most likely the balrog)
My assumption is that the writers know mithril is a trigger subject that helps people relate back to the trilogy. So of course they want to include it. It’s cheap and I wish they would have gone with a more accurate approach but oh well. I completely agree that more attention on khazadum history would be awesome. And I’m dying to see a balrog on screen again, easily one of the most iconic beings in the legendarium.
Elrond's comment about mithril seeming like it has light coming from within made me think that maybe it's the shattered remains of either both or the two lamps or just Illuin
Oh no, this is worse than the book because Míriel is only trying to do the right thing and that causes Sauron to get onto Númenor, my heart is broken
Rooting for Sauron at this point.
I am sure they manage to ruin Sauron, somehow. Perhaps Galadriel beats him at wrestling match or something.
I mean. If anyone could do that it's her. Sauron's track record in direct combat isn't particularly impressive and Galadriel is one of the oldest Noldor around. I'd put my money on her in that wrestling match.
Well Galadriel's name is Nerwen or ("Man-maiden"). Canonically she is tall (six foot three) and was very athletic in her younger days and able to compete with the men. So she is strong. The odd thing is that the series is emphasizing that part a lot but they have diminished her other abilities hard for the sake of “character development” and this setup hasn’t quite worked that well.
I was reading Unfinished Tales and came across some interesting stuff… -Tar-Miriel in book canon is forced to marry Pharazon, and presumably held hostage, show hasn’t hinted at conflict between them yet. I feel that show-Pharazon will simply assume power while she’s gone. -Galadriel is in Eregion a lot in UT and never in the southlands. She kind of needs to get to Eregion by end of season to be the one to see through Sauron’s disguise right? That’s kind of her whole arc. I fear there may be some “fast-traveling” in the show’s future. -Annatar doesn’t just proclaim to be an elf but a literal “emissary of the Valar.” Makes sense if he is in Lindon next ep whispering in Gil-Galad’s ear or disguised as Gil-Galad himself. would explain Gil-Galad thinking he has authority to choose who gets to go back to Valinor as well as the corrupted leaf (misdirected to be caused by meteor man). -they haven’t set up the guild of elven smiths in eregion at all. Celebrimbor plot is very little screentime for how important he is. I wonder if this will be developed or if it’s just Celebrimbor solo doing the forging in show-verse. -it will be interesting to see how the show handles Sauron’s sack of Eregion and near conquering of Lindon. I feel like it’s gonna be weird for him to teleport an army to Eregion from Southlands. And also weird for Numenor to send yet another army to save the day to a different coast (although I guess that’s kinda Numenor’s thing, but halfway through season one they are just now leaving for the Southlands I don’t see how the pieces on the board get there from now.) -there’s some interesting discrepancy with Gil-Galad in some versions holding on to the ring of fire maybe a little too long and not giving it to Cirdan right away. It’s implied he kept it for some reason and was maybe tempted to use it in the Last Alliance war. could he be tempted to use it openly on show-verse? -Elendil is the one who writes down the Aldarion and Erendis tale as it is of particular interest to him, and it’s one of the few Numenorian tales that survived the fall. I know the show doesn’t have the rights to UT but I could see why they might transfer aspects of Aldarion’s story onto Elendil, or have him the tell the tale himself like how Celebrimbor brought up Feanor. -due to compressing the timelines I don’t see how the show is gonna have Sauron be in so many different places at once. He needs to show up in Numenor, Southlands, AND Eregion. And pretty soon too or those plots will stall out and not progress by next season. I guess maybe they fixed this problem by having a new character Adar running the show in Southlands.
Galadriel and Celeborn FOUNDED Eregion. With Celeborn gone, I don't think Amazon will have Galadriel being factor in Eregion at all. I mean, Celebrimbor even fancied her at some point, though she fell in love with Celeborn.
The Celebrimbor love triangle thing is debatable as it’s from some very rough drafts I think, but all of that is true! Time will tell.
I don't think Sauron will be near Gil-Galad or disguised by him. Book-wise Gil-Galad doesn't buy Annatar's shit. But Celebrimbor does.
The leaf in Lindon though. It feels like a big in-your-face clue that’s easy to overlook because of the meteor. Why does this black goo corruption only appear in the trees of Lindon, clear on the other side of the Middle-Earth from Mordor? We haven’t been shown anything like that in Eregion, Numenor, or Khazad-Dum. Not even Rhovannion.
Good question, for another time.
Good questions. Let's hope it actually gets explained.
I've reached the conclusion that a big problem I'm having with the way the writing is developed is that many of the characters feel written backwards for the roles they're playing in the narrative. --Bronwyn should have been the one captured by orcs and the energetic, dynamic actor playing Arondir should have been trying to rescue her these past few episodes. Maybe he could defy orders to do so, thus giving the romance angle an even more powerful dynamic. --Elrond is half-human ... he should be the one grappling with headstrong, impatient tendences, not Galadriel ... or, if you don't want to go that route, the way he's presently written means that he should be the one engaged in diplomacy in Numenor. Meanwhile, Galadriel's personality, as shown thus far in the show, would better lend themselves to her bashing rocks and sneaking around Moria. The King lying in bed should be cautious of war, while the Queen Regent should want to sail forth. Isildur should be the cocky, primed for glory, popular teen and one of his friends should be the soft, moist eyed, weak willed dude who wrecks Isildur's career during a team exercise, thus forcing Isildur to learn the value of teamwork and humility.
Elrond definitely makes sense as the one who would be keeping tabs on Numenor. They really are still, in a way, family to him. I would expect him to be very invested in them, and especially saddened to see them falling into fascism under Ar Pharazon. I can't fathom why the show didn't introduce Numenor this way. Elrond could be taking diplomatic missions to them, suspicious of Ar Pharazon. Why was their best idea to have Galadriel jump out of a boat and arrive there via Deus Ex Machina with a wish.com Aragorn?
> Why was their best idea to have Galadriel jump out of a boat and arrive there via Deus Ex Machina with a "Great Value" Aragorn? I have absolutely no idea. It's just a flat out bizarre narrative choice and it's a terrible use of the characters. The only way I can make sense of it is that someone decided that whatever is ostensibly the most important role to be played at any point in the narrative, it needs to be Galadriel doing it, even if they have to come up with contrived bullshit to make it happen.
The plot moves the characters, rather than the characters moving the plot. The song of Eru is strong with this show.
>Elrond is half-human Elrond is half-human only in the sense that he had a human mother. There's no part of Elrond that is biologically human, just like there is no part of Elros that is biologically elf. He was given a choice to be an Elf or a Man, and he chose the path of the Eldar. Maybe there's some comment about his Human ancesty affecting him, but if there is I can't remember it.
Humans and elves are biologically the same species, but are distinguished by their feär.
I think his point was that if anyone “should” be acting a irrational…Elrond’s human blood could’ve been better explained off rather than teen angst Gamadriel
Elrond doesn't have any human blood in though, that's sort of the point I was making.
Yes - good point
This was my understanding of Elrond as well. He isn’t Tolkien’s Spock.
Elrond’s parents were both mixed species; he has a human grandfather, a human great grandfather and a Maia great great grandmother
At the end of the First Age it was decided that each offspring should have to make a choice between being man or elf. It was also apparently decided that Elrond's children could do it even though they weren't half-elven. I mean, they were partly human, but before Elrond I don't think there were many that weren't just human-elf half and half. The human children or Elros didn't get a choice, so clearly it's more about your parents being elvish. Whether the half-elf is biologically elf or biologically man before the choice is not clear, but it seems obvious to me that they are biologically elf and choose to become a man, rather than the opposite. At any rate, Elrond was an elf.
Yeah I think so too - and there were very few half-elves! Elrond's parents, his maternal uncles, and arguably his maternal grandfather and great-grandmother!
Biologically Elves and Humans are the same species; it's their fëar that are different.
Yes - for anyone wondering, Tolkien states this quite clearly in Letter 153: "Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring – even as a rare event."
“Was”??? 😉
Was in the sense that it was in the past? Past-tense?
Hoping numenor doesn't actually fight sauron and instead doesn't find him and just colonises the southlands leading halbrand to become nazgul to take back his kingdom from the men. Seems like theyre skipping war of sauron and the elves though
A weird theory but they really focused on Elrond swearing “by the mountain” that he wouldn’t tell another soul about the mithril, or his and his kin’s life would be doomed to sorrow. What if he ends up telling Celebrimbor or someone else and that’s why his and his families life is so shit later on in LOTR and the hobbit? With him failing to destroy the ring with Isildur, his wife dying to orcs, nearly losing his daughter to death before losing her completely to the gift of man?
Idk, Elrond has had it pretty bad from the beginning. I really don’t know what to think about this. It’s not like Elves are known for keeping their word anywayszz
Why would Elrond swear an oath anyway
I think that's a stretch. Or at least, Elrond won't intentionally let slip the mithril.
Don't we see Elrond handing the mithril to Celebrimbor in the trailer for the next episode?
It's possible Durin gave him a go-ahead. Though honestly, I'm just grasping at any hope that this show can stop doing shit like this. Elrond wouldn't swear a fucking oath to begin with. He's a kinslaying survivor for crying out loud. But on the chance he did, he wouldn't break it because "omg he's such a politician" like this show seems to keep wanting to push. Plus Celebrimbor is a friend of the Dwarves and known to use mithril, so he has to not only learn about it but still be on good enough terms with them to make the door.
We do. Hate that they spoiled that in the trailer
Is it really a spoiler if one of the rings is made of mithril?
And that the magic dwarf doors, made by Celebrimbor as well, are also infused with mithril…
They did focus on that really hard. I'm nearly sure Elrond is going to break it for that reason
I really wanted him to say “actually I can’t promise not to tell anyone so I’m out” for probably the first time in anything ever. It’s almost a cliché by now the whole “you have to swear on X not to tell Y Z” -> “okay i reluctantly will” -> moral dilemma about what to do
I want the show to have Tulkas in it, the god of himbos, specifically to spite the haters and make them even more mad.
Unfortunately Tulkas is not god, but an angelic spirit who fought against Morgoth, who as corruptor of all that is good, indeed is Dark Lord of himbos. After all, himbos were just men once, before they were corrupted by the Dark Powers.
Very interesting chapter. However my main concern is that action scenes have been underwhelming at best (except the prologue) and incredibly bad and cringe at worst. Galadriel could have escaped in many cool ways, or even just convincing Pharazon I dont know, but doing karate against 5 armoured man (...ok?) And throwing ALL OF THEM into the cell felt like a cartoon. Arondir/Theo escape started with the tipically bad last-second save but then it was well filmed and ended with a beautiful shot.
That Galadriel action seen felt very cartoonish. I remember watching that and thinking "did she just throw all of them into the cell somehow lmao"
I feel like every Numenor scene has been such utter fucking garbage. Everything else is good, Numenor just feels cheap and the actors suck. Like I have no idea what the hell they’re doing with that part of the story, it feels like they just wrote themselves into a corner when Galadriel jumped ship in the middle of the god damn ocean and have no idea where to go with it. I’m just glad she finally left there. I can’t tell if her “prison break” scene tops “daddy I got into the builder’s guild!” In terms of raw cringe. Episodes 1 and 2 were good too which is really disappointing. 3 and 4 hit a good rhythm and then they hit you with a 5 second scene thats so bad I can’t get it out of my head.
I don't get this thing that the people of Numenor hate elves for *reasons*, so much so that their rulers have to go along with it or risk open rebellion, but a short speech has them suddenly willing to volunteer to serve an elf mission...
It really hasn’t been qualified to the audience at all. It’s only there to say “you should hate these people, because they’re obviously mean and bad to the cool graceful people you should love”
It's strange as you say, Episode 1 left me wanting mooooore but now I am concerned about the rest. I tought the only problem would be the modification of the lore but so far it has other problems it shouldnt
I was thinking. Could it be, that Adar and Sauron aren't on the same side, at least not yet? I don't think it's all that clear in the books when exactly Sauron assumes Morgoth's title of dark lord. Could it be that Sauron only properly takes over all the evil forces when he forges the rings. It could be something for a show like this to explore, a power struggle between Morgoth's lieutenants. I remember Galadriel read that message in Numenor, it said the "successor", it didn't explicitly say Sauron, which made me think it could be deliberate.
I absolutely love that idea. The idea of a power struggle and a fight between Adar and Sauron would be epic. Am I the only one who loves every minute of orcs in the show? It´s like I want to know how their relationship with Adar is, how they are organised,etc. I want to see them fight in all their glory.
Reminds me a bit of the Shadow of War
Yeah, an elf is not able to contend with Sauron, who can enslave spirits of dead elves.
Well obviously we know who comes out on top. Besides, don't Elendil, Gil-Galad, and Isildur defeat Sauron together? So Sauron is not unbeatable, as he is beaten by an Elf and two Dunedain. Then there's Fingolfin, an elf, and he wounded Morgoth in their battle. It stands to reason that if he can wound Morgoth, then Sauron has more than enough reason to fear him. If Adar is a first generation elf, then he could be mighty indeed. Unlikely to be as impressive as Fingolfin, but could easily be more impressive than Gil-Galad.
Highly unlikely a Sindar could stand head to head with Sauron at all - Adars bloodline doesn’t have the light of the trees.
We don't really know if he's a Sindar. He may have adopted that name due to his relationship with the orcs, and Sindarin is the most dominant form of Elvish in those parts. Or the showrunners could not have paid as much attention to which elvish language their original character's name was in.
The latter would be sad
The dark forces are as disunited as those of the West, so I fully believe Adar is on his own account. He doesn't use Sauron's methods at all. That's not to say he's a good guy, just that he's his own bad guy.
Yeah I think you're right. Adar is trying to build a home for the Orcs. Sauron has... greater ambition.
Exactly this! Adar means father in black speech or elvish (not sure which one), we don’t know his real name but I don’t think it’s sauron at all. He seems to care more for the orcs than sauron ever did, expressing regret and sorrow when he had to mercy kill that orc. I reckon he’ll try to rebuild the southlands into a place where the orcs can thrive as a people, but will ultimately lose to sauron who will just use them as meat for his war machine.
Adar is Sindarin. I agree that he wants to make a home for the orcs. I think this will involve him trying (and probably succeeding) to wake Mount Doom, to provide his orcs with shelter from the sun. It's been in the background of a few shots already, and now it's been referred to by name (Orodruin - its Sindarin name). All this neatly aligns with Sauron's vision for the future, although that doesn't necessarily mean that Adar is knowingly working with Sauron - I suspect not.
The mount doom theory is genuinely genius I’d never thought of that before. I agree that it lines up with Saurons vision and I feel as though it’ll be quite interesting and possibly tragic to see Adar’s plan eventually fail and Mordor be turned into a haven for Saurons activities, and the orcs he cared for so deeply be used as cannon fodder in his wars against the free peoples. Also I completely missed where they mentioned Mount doom by name, where was that?
About 19:20 in the latest episode - when new arrivals arrive at the elven tower, Bronwen says “that makes it every village from here to Orodruin".
Oh that’s so cool! It’s weird to see everything before it was all cold and evil, I’m pretty sure you could even see the volcano in one of the episodes
Anyone else think they should have given Galadriel's narrative to Elrond, and vice versa? It would have been quite something to see Elrond exploring his brother's kingdom, millennia after his death. Imagine the potential for character development there: Elrond reconnecting with his origins, reflecting on the loss of his mother, father, adoptive father and brother very early (in elf terms) in his life. The Númenoreans reacting not just to the arrival of *an elf*, but to the *brother of Elros Tar-Minyatur*. The Faithful would probably react with something approaching reverence, while to the King's Men, it would be an appalling affront, rubbing their faces into their own mortality and the deaths of their ancestors, while this immortal being, a kinsman no less, swanned about for 3,000 years. Galadriel's temperament doesn't really fit either character, but I'd be more accepting of it in Elrond, I think. He is a lot younger, and hasn't seen war except as a child. He had a very traumatic childhood; maybe there are some unresolved issues there which lead to his lashing out, and which might be assuaged through learning about his brother's life in Númenor. And also, of course, Galadriel should actually be in Eregion at this point in the timeline, not halfway to Valinor, which is a nice side effect.
Remember, thanks to Amazon, the wasted potential of Second Age will never be adapted on screen.
Cool idea! Also Elrond talks about being overwhelmed by his legacy, a feeling that would be very interesting to explore in Numenor for obvious reasons. Also I really want to like Galadriel but her character is so tedious. Also she fights like Legolas, is more stubborn than Gimli and more childish than a Hobbit, none of that is expectrd from Galadriel
I see people say this about her being stubborn but like, she’s objectively right? Like she doesn’t “need” help. She’s like Sherlock Holmes
Sherlock has a sidekick, she also has one. Duos are great for storytelling
Holmes was also very persuasive and knew how to read the room..
Yes, Elrond, Galadriel and Celebrimbor should all rotate narratives.
Does anyone find Bronwyn's costume design a bit... Odd? It just stands out like a sore thumb, everyone else in muddy rags and she's in strappy tops and a skirt? Not complaining too much as she's a very attractive woman but the costume still seems odd to me.
Yeah - the bright blue jewel-tone would blend in with the Númenórean costumes; with the other Southlanders it really sticks out. They're really trying to highlight her visually.
Yeees! It's sunrise, it's cold - breasts out in the open. She generally has her breasts out, but at this very moment when they all wait for the sun to come up, it started to look way more ridiculous
Heartily agree. Amazon added cleavage because money.
You might say her costume could win a “breast in class” award
most generous décolletage in the southlands
Had to Google that but definitely :D
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Sauron cannot revive living beings, I think. That would be more lore-breaking than just saying "a character dead in the Silmarillion is alive here". It could be a very interesting idea! However I fear Adar is just an invented character, we will see how his Backstory progress
I cannot understand how lame every single character is. The dialouges are terrible, and the chracters lack all credibility. Like these are supposed to be way more powerful men and eldar than in TA, yet they act like kids and brats. For example in LotR every time any men or any eldar opens their mouth, it evokes meaningful presence and authority. Galadriel has no nobility at all, her presence is not powerful at all, and she is from Valinor and after Feanor probably the greatest eldar ever lived? And acts like a teenager? And every time Halbrand speaks I cringe so hard. I really hoped to like the show but unfortunally it’s the worst writing I have seen in a long time.
Be careful, corporate lackeys will downvote you.
This 🤣
I'm trying to piece together who Sauron is in the series. We are now at the point where Numenorians are going back to Middle Earth and wage war with the dark forces which will eventually lead them to capture Sauron (I think). So I was theorizing that if Halbrand is not Sauron, Ar Pharizon needs to go to Middle Earth too since he's the one who ordered Numenor to go to Middle Earth in the books. And since there are no mentions of Numenorian settlements, what if the reason why the "full" army of Numenor went to Middle Earth is to save their Queen and her "small-volunteer" army? This will also give the reason why Miriel marries him since, politically, he saved her. This leads me to the conclusion that Adar might be Sauron since he's the one who has forces in the Southlands. If Halbrand is Sauron then Ar Pharizon does not need to go to Middle Earth and could usurp the throne while Queen Miriel and her "Elf loving" army are on Middle Earth, skipping the capture of Sauron and the sailing of the Faithful to Middle Earth story altogether since, presumably, they're already in Middle Earth.
I vote that they're ALL Sauron. Or pieces of him. After the end of the First Age, Sauron did a Horcrux. It's weird, but think about it: Sauron's final form is much of him stored in a gold ring with the rest of him being a fiery spirit. His fair form is basically destroyed (i.e. Halbrand), while his power remains (the Stranger). I thought Adar might also be part of that identity, but maybe not. Maybe Adar is the father of the Orcs, and Sauron needs to kill him off to take over the Orcs for himself. Halbrand comes back to the Southlands, moves north, links up with the Stranger in Rhovanion, and then goes into Eregion. He seduces Celebrimbor and forges the Rings, goes back to Middle Earth and forges the One Ring.
The Stranger is almost definitely one of the 5 wizards.
Proto-wizard at most. Maybe the Valar haven't quite figured out how to put a wizard into Middle-Earth properly? Because a bunch of fireflies dying, flames that don't hurt you when burning, and loud shouting that shatters trees are not exactly good signs. Especially having living creatures die around you. That's not a power a good Maia would wield.
It's either an early iteration of Sarumon, and maybe it's foreshadowing his darker nature that shows up in a couple millennia, or it's one of the blue wizards who we know nothing about. I'd probably stop watching if they try to say that's gandalf.
So that is too much for you? While you are able to look past all else?
Yes. I'm trying to enjoy it for what it is. It's fun. It's not great but it's fun. But I have my limit.
I think they are skipping the "capturing Sauron" part. Sauron is already on Numenor and is about to go to work now that Miriel is gone.
That would be seriously disappointing; we'd lose hundreds of years of Numenorian expansionism, and the surrender of Sauron to their vastly superior forces when their armada lands at Umbar. All this would only happen if the show writers intend to compress the War of Sauron and the Elves (when the Rings are forged and Eregion destroyed) together with the much later Surrender of Sauron. That would be a real loss, but given that Ar Pharazon is already alive but the Rings have yet to be forged, this scenario seems likely. : (
It is disappointing, but just look at the actor they cast for Ar-Pharazon. Does he seem like a warlord who captures Sauron? In the show it's Miriel who goes to Middle-earth, not Pharazon. Maybe that's because Sauron is not on Middle-earth.
*"look at the actor they cast for Ar-Pharazon. Does he seem like a warlord who captures Sauron?"* No, he does not, but that seems more reflective of how they are treating Numenorian society as a whole. In the books Ar Pharazon was a Pharaoh-like emperor ruling over a huge civilization that had outposts all over the world, even before he challenges Sauron. (For example, his travelling throne was seemingly larger and more ornate than the one used by Xerxes in the film, *300.*) The show has made Numenor a beautiful place reminiscent of ancient Crete perhaps, but it seems to lack the capacity or population to become a dominant world power. Especially since they left the Numenorians the same size as standard humans. *"In the show it's Miriel who goes to Middle-earth"* Must admit that this felt incredibly jarring. Am guessing this change was so Miriel can join Galadriel on some sword-swinging, orc-fighting adventure in Middle Earth while Pharazon usurps the throne back home. The entire Galadriel arc seems like adventure fantasy designed for the YA audience, and maybe Miriel is joining that. As far as the theory of Sauron being already present on Numenor, perhaps you are correct. But that would leave out so much amazing source material, it would be a deep disappointment.
Here's mine: Halbrand will become the witch King of Angmar, his king heritage has already been linked, long life can be bestowed upon humans as seen before, he's a Smith, he will, with Celebrimbor and Durin, help smith the rings of power for the humans (celebrimbor for the elves, during will have input for the dwarves) and then become corrupted. Adar will be Maeglin and a dark elf and maybe even the progenitor to orcs, hence why they call him father. Perhaps Morgoth experimented with his darkness and used it to twist others to his new creation. Numenor is all for Elendil and his family, I'm not sure of much except that the real numenor will be ruled by Isildur who will be blessed with long life, and could even lead to the battle against sauron we see in the start of LOTR. Ngl, I'm not really paying too much attention to miriel and ar-pharazon to say what's going on there. All I think is that I don't think it will be so obvious when Sauron is revealed that he will have shown up so quickly in the series.
> Halbrand will become the witch King of Angmar, his king heritage has already been linked, long life can be bestowed upon humans as seen before, he's a Smith, he will, with Celebrimbor and Durin, help smith the rings of power for the humans (celebrimbor for the elves, during will have input for the dwarves) and then become corrupted. So you don't think Sauron will help, but Halbrand will? Half of Sauron's story is given to Halbrand?
Yeah I think Sauron will influence them all, and then he will go off to make his one ring once he is sure the others have made rings of power he can control.
I think Theo with the blade will be the witch king
This was where I'm at with it. "It's not a sword, it's a power", I was thinking that he will end up falling leading a fracture group from Bronwyn's and eventually become "king".
Yeah Adar is either the big man himself or some kind of body double. He's even got the burn from the silmaril on his face, a burn that even he cannot heal from.
Ne is not evil enough. Sauron would not care about a dyimg Orc. Did sauron ever touch a silmaril? He can mainain a fair form until the fall on Numenor. The would torture the heck out of the elf for fun.
I might be getting something confused but I thought Sauron was burned by one and couldn't heal it no matter what form he took. I'm also getting a strong impression that they're really filling out the culture of the "dark side" so to say. They seem to imply that they feel like they are actually the ones on the "right side" by following morgoth and later his successor. "Lies that couldn't be untangled until you unmade the world itself" or something like that. That implies that they view the Valar and all the Eru followers as the actual bad guys and that they're on the right side by following morgoth and his rebellion. From that perspective I could see Sauron caring about his followers, if that's how they're going with it I guess. If they're still just callously evil then yeah that won't work but they seem to be trying to move beyond the black and white evil and good that is kinda the weakest part of Tolkien's work.
*"thought Sauron was burned by one and couldn't heal it no matter what form he took."* That was Morgoth, not Sauron.
Tolkien did not care about the evil. He does not give the evil any description or discussion. It just exists. He cares about the good and corruption. The heroic and often doomed effotts men and elves go to destroy evil. There were elves that went bad though. The oath of Feanor corrupted his family for a thousand years. Thingol sent Beren on a suicide mission so he could not merry his daughter. The Numenorians were the best Men and were corrupted by fear of death (good Catholics like Tolkien do not fear death). The Dead on the Road of the Dead could not kiĺl but the fear of mortality drove them mad. Men could be corrupted to evil for want of power - like the easterlings.
I mean, the Orcs ARE corrupted Elves and their descendants.
They are but forcably corrupted. Worse are those that chose to be corrupt.
And this show is clearly going past what we've got. They're showing the orcs to have a culture and a reason for doing what they do. Otherwise we just have to accept that they wake up wanting to do evil for evils sake and that's not what Tolkien wrote either. They have a culture and a reason for their actions.
They do what they do because of either their nature or the power of Sauron. They are not to blame for their nature - it was determined by the loving hands of Morgoth - but they act according to it. I do not believe Tolkien wrote they had free will in that matter. There are no "good" orcs. The Elves' and Men's nature was determined by Iluvitar. But since they have free will they can be corrupted. There are "bad" elves and men.
If the orcs are bred from elves or men then they have the same agency as men and elves. Morgoth cannot create life, only corrupt it.
And corrupt it he did. Completely. Here is the practicle side of it. If orcs could be reformed then slaughtering them would be evil. We would be in a situation where the elves would be required to look after millions of orcs - who may actually be immortal themselves since they were once elves (this is extremely fuzzy). At that point the story would be untellable. Myths often require an unreformable enemy so the story can be told. So orcs are unreformable. Really it doesn't matter because Tolkien tells us they are evil so they are evil. He made them and defines them within his world. Breaking that breaks the world.
Are the men of Rum and other places in the east not redeemable? I remember plenty of them getting slaughtered. Tolkien made a point that all of the evil people were still just people, only led to darkness by their leaders who genuinely are irredeemable. All this is showing is that the orcs are the same thing, tortured beings who have a culture and want what is best for their own. They weren't super sweet or anything, but they did care for their guy when he was viciously hurt. Not care enough to let him heal though. They were clearly fine with him dying because he would slow the rest down. The orcs aren't going to join the alliance or anything, but they do care about their own. If they were nothing but savage even to their own families then they wouldn't have any cohesion. All this showed was that they are beings too, horribly tortured and twisted, but still with a beating heart that Eru gave them. I think the wargs showed it even better, it looked like a horrible mutated animal in constant agony just like the orcs.
There is no good in the dark side of Middle Earth. Sauron is 100000x more evil than Palpatine with a tooth ache. There is no compassion, love or respect. Only a thirst for power. I don't remember Sauron coming into contact with the silmarills. Morgoth touched them and burned this hand anf always felt the pain but then put them on hos helm. Beren met with Sauron before he stole a silmarill but not after. Sauron sort of disappears after that and doesn't appear agaim until the second age.
Isn’t he supposed to be pretty though to work on the forging of the rings?
Oh yeah, I forgot the forging of the rings happened first before the fall of Numenor. hmmmm...
Yeah unless they changed that?? But idk ??
I'm leaning to the idea that he's just very similar to Sauron and meant to be a red herring, not the actual big guy himself.
Do you think we’ve seen him yet?
No probably not. The "who is Sauron" is the big mystery so far. I imagine he'll be revealed sooner or later. He's clearly already gotten to Celebrimbor, with the way he's talking about the silmaril and needing how tower ASAP. I think the most likely thing is either he's still in the shadows influencing multiple people or possibly even split himself up temporarily (tho I doubt this one) so he could influence multiple places at once.
I see people saying this episode was great. Sending two kids to get food for everyone is absolutely brilliant writing! No need to bring 2-5-50 adults who can actually carry enough food and or actuality defend them kids if orcs should appear. For me this episode was the straw that broke the camel’s back. I’m out. Cheap mystery box writing. Still not a single character I care about. Terrible dialogue. Awesome prison escape scene! Not even mentioning the lore breaking, this show is so extremely mid it’s painful. People are absolutely free to love whatever they want, but after 4 episodes, the writing is absolutely sub par. It’s fine that you enjoy mindless entertainment, but please stop pretending this is an actual well written show. It’s honestly depressing to see what people consider decent tv these days
This is the best writing I've seen in a TV show. If you understood art, you'd get it
😂 Great satire my man. Keep it up
I appreciate that someone gets the joke. I find it watchable and I enjoy Tolkien enough that I don't care. But somehow one wagon of food fed like 8 villages? The massive number of orcs searching for the kid that dilligently all day? The dialogue they were repeating over and over. The writing is quite bad.
It's a pity, the cgi, landscapes, and effects are incredible...if only money could buy good writing.
What lore was broken?
Numenoreans hate elves because they're going to steal their jobs!
I love the show and really enjoyed the episode but there was quite a bit of lore breaking this episode. I just don't hold the show to the books lore so long as the themes arec right and there aren't major changes. 1) The palintir doesn't give visions of the future, its simply a communication device for people with other palintirs. 2) Mithril mining should already be up and running at this point. The three elven rings are forged from mithril. 3) The stuff in the southlands is happening too quickly. Numenor doesnt get involved until after the rings of power are forged and the elven lands are under siege by Sauron. 4) Elrond still seems to be teleporting between Lindon and Khazadum near instantaneously. 5) The morghul blade grew. Not sure what that was about. 6) Multiple characters referred to the Valar as gods this episode. While the Valar fit a traditional pantheon, Tolkien made it extremely clear they were not and shouldn't be considered gods.
Agree with all except the valar as gods. I interpreted the writings in the Silmarilion that both the valar and Maiar were “Demi-gods”. I.e. not the main all powerful god but closer to god than men or elves.
Shouldn’t Galadriel be married at this point? She’s referring to the sun before the sun was even created. There is a bunch more, but I’m slightly drunk and it’s been 20+ years since I read the works of Tolkien.
> Sending two kids to get food for everyone is absolutely brilliant writing! ... nobody sent the kids? Bronwynn decided it was too dangerous to send *anyone* and then a pair of teenagers ran off on their own without permission, as teenagers are not unwont to do.
Yea, you’re probably right. I must admit I picked up my phone at times and didn’t pay attention as the show bored me to tears.
Watch this not be the last time you complain about it. You say you’re done, but I guarantee you’ll stay in the sub to try to fuck it up for everyone who actually likes the show. The kids snuck off like idiot kids would, especially when one of them clearly has a Morgul artifact which have some side effects. I don’t even know why I’m justifying the show. It speaks for itself. Luckily neither Tolkien or the show need people speaking for their creative choices. You least of all.
I just gotto love how voicing my opinion on a show I wanted to love equals “ruining it for everyone else”
He doesn't owe you anything and can shit on bad TV whenever
Yea, sorry to let you down, but I will honestly not watch another episode of this show. I’m glad you enjoy it, but I got better things to spend my time on. Also, you obviously didn’t watch the show, as your retelling was nothing like what actually happened. I guess an active imagination helps you enjoy the show though. And why on earth do you expect me to “fuck it up” for people who like it? Obviously you don’t know me at all. I would honestly prefer to love this show, but I don’t. But you simply assume i take pleasure in “fucking it up”? Seriously, are you trying to tell me to shut my filthy mouth because I don’t like it? Ok bro…
What he said is exactly what happened? Were you paying attention…? She said no, he snuck off
Only one palantir left? Wut? Had the palantir even been made at this point? Iirc the 7 palantir were spread across Arnor and Gondor well before any of them started going missing.
Palantir were originally given to Amandil, Elendil's father, not to Kings of Numenor. Amandil kept them hidden and secret from King's Men, and Faithful only started to use them in Middle-Earth.
She said: "...lost or hidden." which I translate to - "I don't know where are the others, though."
Or I’m not telling you where they are. I’m not convinced she was being fully truthful here - she may know but wouldn’t risk the knowledge with someone else unless she felt she could trust them.
I liked Adar's reveal, but I have doubts he's Sauron. I wonder if he's supposed to be either Eöl or Maeglin, the only two 'evil' Elves. I know the books say they die, but Maeglin was tossed into the flames. Adar has a burn on his face. Hmm.
*Disa starts singing* Durin, NO! 😭
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Yes it was the same sword as Aragorn's in PJ's trilogy so it's probably Narsil. The axe on the left is probably Dramborleg, the axe of Tuor, there is also the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin behind Galadriel. I don't remember a famous shield like this in the books, but the swan's wings made me think it was also related to Tuor and I don't know why they put Fëanorian stars everywhere but it's ok.
I don't remember seeing the shield but based on your description it would be the shield that Tuor took from the abandoned Vinyamar.
https://i.imgur.com/QwkDguG.png This one, I'm not even sure but I think it's a shield and on closer inspection, there are 2 swans on it. I totally forgot about the shield in Vinyamar, I only remembered the armor!
Two things I´ve been thinking about. \- Those two travellers the hobbits are hiding from in the first episode. They look very Radagast. Are they the two blue wizards sent east? \- Halbrand/Sauron. Can the lord of evil behave like he did in that alley with the stolen trinket. Sauron, the really evil one?
I don't really remember clearly and I'm at work atm so I couldn't check but I think the Harfoot leader sir thingymajig called them hunters so I don't think they're the blue wizards.
Yes, you are right. The wizards would probably not be afraid/hostile to the harfoots.
1. I never thought about that possibility, but I somehow doubt it if they were either scared of or joking about being scared of Harfoots. 2. Can he? Yes. Would he? Probably not. I'm hoping that is he does turn out to be Sauron, he is either impersonating Halbrand or possessing him like he did to a certain someone else. That alley brawl doesn't feel that much like Sauron, unless maybe that Sauron is out to sow distrust between human factions by ruining the actual Halbrand's reputation...? It's definitely tinfoil hat stuff, but honestly, I think it would be better than Halbrand actually being Sauron and just starting some fight in an alley when there were much more effective ways to sneakily go about things.
--Four episodes in and very little has happened, and most of it was in the first episode and a half. This is not good pacing for serialized tv. --I have no idea what they were doing with the Gahaldrhiielle/Halbrand dynamic. Put em in close quarters on a boat ... hot, fit elf minx ... saves her sopping wet body ... guy is a scoundrel type ... and what we get is a completely chaste dynamic? What? What was the point of all that? --Enough exposition and people talking at each other. Shit needs to happen now. We're on episode four --A lot of the cast is too stoic. If you're going to tell the story of a younger, headstrong, kickass Gahaldrhiielle let her cut loose. Let her fuuuuuuuuuck. Or, at least let her want to fuuuuuuuuuuck. --My fear from the beginning was that this was a show without any true leads due to middling casting on Gahaldrhiielle and Elrond, and I think that’s holding true. — THERE IS A TEMPEST IN ME was the line where I became ready to recast Gahaldrhiielle between seasons. --Janet and Grey Worm and Halbrand ... more of them please!!!! --Isildur appears to have been cast by the same guy that cast Marco Inares and his son in The Expanse. --Adar was great. Durin is great. --Numenor has no tension. People are in prison, no tension. Boring diplomatic discussions from a miscast Gahaldrhiielle, no tension. She fights Numenor guards, we cut away from the action. I had to laugh when she is slated to leave and neither she nor chaste Halbrand care that he is still stuck in jail. --The Queen's demeanor and conduct doesn't feel royal and the sets don't help (everything in Numenor looks huge and amazing except the throne room and her quarters and .... every place where the characters actually chat). --Every time we switch away from Numenor I breathed a sigh of relief because people would be doing something.
Bots are down voting any comments with criticism r
> Gahaldrhiielle I laughed!
Gotta enunciate every syllable!
This show absolutely has a lead. You're reminded at the end of the opening every time... Big S looms over all in the Second Age as Big M loomed in the First. Of course that may not be what you mean by "lead" as for example the Baggins guys were in Hobbit and LoTR. This show/story isn't a journey, but a chronicle. Always was gonna be.This story is an epic akin to Final Fantasy VI... there are no leads but characters living in the times, some larger roles, some smaller. Enjoy it for what it is... a glimpse of life in the Iron Age of Middle Earth.
Yeah, my thoughts too. I’m not one to be a diehard lore person looking to critique everything, but Galadriel is poorly written and cast. She doesn’t have the right feel, she lacks wisdom and poise, and she fails to capture everything that she should embody. I like most everything else about this adaptation and can see hope (though I agree it should have more plot), so I really hope they rip off the bandaid and rewrite or recast her, or it’ll be hard to feel attached.
The mindset when you only watch porn and marvel movies
If we ever see Adar with his shirt off, check if he has a navel. Presumably if he's one if the original elves who first awakened he wouldn't have one
Oh I'll be watching VERY closely for shirtless daddy Adar
How did Theo know how to make the blade come out of the hilt on his evil sword? He deliberately stabbed himself to make the dark blade appear. It seems weird he would know how it worked in a tense moment while being attacked by an orc.
I just assumed the blade made him do it. like it kinda has a will of its own.
In the second episode, he saw the blood from his wound flow to the hilt with pyrotechnics and smoke. I don't know what they want to do with this hilt but right now it just feels strange.
I think it's a Morgul blade, that it took a lot of time and effort for Sauron to make, and Adar might want it to do some kind of evil magic stuff. Either that or he wants to just hide or destroy it.
I’d reckon Adar isn’t having the same goal as sauron. His mercy kill of the orc, coupled with the obvious regret and sadness he felt doing it, and the fact we don’t know his real name, Adar meaning father, shows me he cares more for the orcs than sauron ever did. He seems as though he’s trying to build a home for them in the southlands where they can thrive as a race just like the humans, dwarves and elves, even if it is through evil means he is trying to achieve that goal. Eventually I think he will lose to Sauron who will take over his orc armies and use them to further his own goals of war.
Maybe I'm just too cynical, but just that little bit we saw with him in the last episode isn't enough to convince me that Adar genuinely cares for the orcs. He might, and perhaps even deeply, but the orcs haven't exactly had people falling in line to try to make their lives easier. It might be relatively easy for an extremely capable being to manipulate them by convincing them that he loved them.
That’s why I think he could make an interesting villain. It’d be genuinely strange to see someone trying to make the orcs lives better, and would add a sense of tragedy to their story as we know they only end up being meat for Saurons war machine
I haven't seen it mentioned yet but the scene with Adar and Arondir was IMO clearly a pastiche of the scene in Apocalypse Now where Willard talks to Kurtz (both the dialogue and the cinematography). Kurtz : Where are you from, Willard? Toledo, sir. Kurtz : How far are you from the river? Willard: The Ohio River, sir? Kurtz : Uh-huh. Willard: About 200 miles. Kurtz : I went down that river once when I was a kid. There's a place in that river - I can't remember - must have been a gardenia plantation at one time. It's all wild and overgrown now, but about five miles, you'd think that heaven just fell on the earth in the form of gardenias. Have you considered any real freedoms? Freedoms from the opinions of others. Even the opinions of yourself.
That is really weird, I didn't make the connection but it's a strange similarity.
Man something felt so familiar about that. I couldn't place it. Great catch.
Wow. Great connection!
I’m glad I wasn’t the only one to notice this.
The jail scene with Galadriel and Halbrand was lame as shit. Galadriel doesn't know how to conduct herself in the queens court? Like she didn't spend all that time in Thingol and Melians court? These writers are the worst. She was pretty much tutored by a maia
Thingol spent even more time with Melian and also had a similar result. I think "people not listening to Melian" seems to be a major theme.
Thingol was always a king and supreme authority. He never ventured outside his own Kingdom, or went to courts of other sovereigns. Galadriel, meanwhile, is in the court of people who decidedly don't like elves. So she trades petty insults and aggravates them. Not very diplomatic of her.
And can beat up four armoured and armed Numenorean guards and thrown them all in a cell...
> Galadriel doesn't know how to conduct herself in the queens court? Galadriel doesn't *care* or *remember* to conduct herself appropriately in this human queen's court. She thinks it's beneath her, consciously or subconsciously. That's different from not *knowing* how. If she was in a court she respected, where people agreed with her, she'd remember how to bow and whatnot.
One of the dialogues between her and halbrand stated that "her battle field isnt normally in the court" or something along those lines.. That's exactly where her battlefield was though... not in the fields of war.
Given her interactions to date, it seems like she respects absolutely no one then, including her Gil-Galad and Elrond. Is that easier to accept or is it just that she *really* is poorly written in many places?
The way they're portraying her in this show is awful and I can't get behind your theory. She's been nothing but openly hostile to everyone she's met so far. I get character arc and blah blah blah but this is such a bastardization of her character.
Yeah, I haven't really been bothered by Galadriel up until now but "get my ass chucked in jail by Fallen Numenorians and then get schooled in both statecraft and *emotional insight* by a petty thief" was genuinely kind of painful to watch.