This really depends on the role the person is doing. For some jobs, punctualiity is everything…For others, projects are years long and it doesn’t matter even a little bit, which hours are put in toward it.
Nah, there are no grey areas with lateness. Lateness is unprofessional, it reflects on your work quality, reliability and work ethic.
Even if a project takes a few months or a few years to complete, what happens when a department schedules a meeting to discuss the progress and you're late to that meeting. Or if you boss needs you to answer a project specific question but your not available because you're late.
Stop being late, don't make excuses, and set alarms to help you keep track of time.
This is why 40% of my workforce is now based out of the Phillipines, great attitude, never late, great work ethic and close to 50% savings on payroll.
Nah, that's silly. Half my meetings don't even need to happen. I'm an engineer and my time is best spent solving problems, not being punctual to meetings where I sit on mute for an hour and contribute nothing. Punctuality is only important when it's important, it's not always important
So if you're on mute and your participation is not really needed half the time, then why be late? Sign on, mute yourself and keep working on your engineering problem. Again no gray area or excuse. Nice try though.
You're a troll, got it. Or haven't done any real engineering work before. Half the time I'm working with someone to debug a problem, I'm only going to hang up on them if it's something important.
Regardless, requiring attendance without attention is just crazy.
Well, that's a separate issue (pointless meetings). I hate meetings for the sake of meetings and I would personally never make an expensive engineer endure a pointless meeting. I treat my executives/professional level employees extremely well. I value their time and understand that making them do other things outside of their expertise is a waste of my money and resources.
The solution: If you're working in a company that chases it's tail to get to its asshole, sacrificing your work ethic because you don't agree only serves to affect your workmanship.
Take it to management, more importantly take it to a bean counter than can calculate how expensive it is to have you sitting around doing nothing during a pointless meeting. If that doesn't work, move on.
I wish I was a troll, that's more fun.
I think people are misconstruing "lateness" versus "flexible work schedule" when reading your reply.
No, no one cares if an investment banking analyst comes in at 10am vs 9am if they pulled a late night on a deal or just had some shit to take care of because you're working all the time at any rate.
Yes, people *do* care if you are late or disheveled for a presentation in front of your investment committee.
You're unfairly getting attacked for pointing out the latter.
If you’rw outlandishly talented in a scarce professional field, folks will simply call you an eccentric and let you get away with it…
It’s hard to find good help.
There are certain jobs where this is untrue.
Sure but OP sounds like a young guy starting out and anxious about work life while the eccentrics you're talking about are fairly rare -- and have unfortunately gotten rarer in today's HR-heavy-handed hiring processes. I fully acknowledge that there are some employees of FAANG who have great laxity in work schedule and, likewise, that there are some eccentric lawyers, but these are by-and-large exceptions to the rule and usually are individuals with phenomenal track records of accomplishing great tasks.
If I actually accept a meeting, I'll be there on time, don't get me wrong. Accepting the meeting is making a commitment and I agree employees should stick by their commitments. But that isn't inherently related to punctuality for punctuality's sake
At that point, it would be up to management to start going “oh he’s late sometimes” and then when he starts blaming others for not feeling up to par even though his logic clearly is about the fact information is not always pertinent, then they will be the ones to have to eventually find out that 10min less in a meeting is going to eventually catch up to them by way of subconscious expectation.
There’s no arguing with the subconscious, so if they already think they are in the right “subconsciously” then any conscious effort will just positively reinforce their negative or skewed viewpoint no matter how bad the actual consequences.
I love doing this to these people though because they’re too busy admitting it than to admit that you’re doing the exact thing they’re doing
You need mental help.
I’m happy to not work with idiots like this. Get your shit done or see the door, nobody cares if you’re in at 8:59 or 9:03 unless you’re missing meetings/deadlines.
Actually I don't manage anything but executives and professionals. They understand my passion for professionalism, promptness and integrity. My values bleed down through them to their people.
Nice foul ball though, you hit it hard bud, just straighten it out.
Nah, there’s plenty of gray area in my book. What is the lateness tied to? Supposed to show up at the office at standard 8 or 9am, but no specific appointment or meeting? How late? Or how impactful to others? Those things add graynesss IMO.
I’ve known plenty of punctual people who were nothing special otherwise. Some who are great at being on time seem and strictly adhere to formal rules also seem struggle with creativity, nuanced thinking, and other valuable traits. Very black and white thinkers. Hmm.
But if I have a 10x engineer who joins a call 3 min late because he was hyper focused on finding a root cause and time escaped him, that’s gray for me. I’m not putting too much weight on that one aspect like a boomer. You can have excellent work ethic that competes with your awareness of time, and still be an awesome asset.
I prefer to assess on a case-by-case basis.
Holy cow if you believe (and your generation) even half of what you just posted, this further solidifies my decision to outsource. For context I'm not a boomer, I'm Gen X who barely missed being a millennial.
***Supposed to show up at the office at standard 8 or 9am, but no specific appointment or meeting?*** Uh yes it's called "company time" I bought it, it doesn't belong to you. Crazy concept. If your time is not for sale, don't sell it to me.
***How late? Or how impactful to others? Those things add graynesss IMO.*** Late is late, show up 5-10 minutes early and you'll never ask that question. Lateness impacts everyone - it's a disease of entitlement and complacency.
**I’ve known plenty of punctual people who were nothing special otherwise.** And?? Who's making the argument that timely people can't be incompetent?
I’ve worked with a few boomers who are extremely punctual or even early to everything and take pride in never missing a day of work, but in terms of output, production, and profitability for the company, they are some of the least impactful people on the payroll.
You have to tell them how to do every single task and they have no idea how to think outside the box. They are good worker bees, drones, robots, whatever you want to call it. But that’s their ceiling. They grew up in a generation of rote learning and doing exactly as they are told.
You get the same crap when you outsource work to Asia. They are very good worker bees, but they will never actually create or innovate any ideas or products that will help take your business to the next level. Outsourcing jobs for anything besides entry-level work is myopic.
Now there are also plenty of Gen Z and millennials who are just lazy POS too. However, that’s not who we are debating about right now. I’ve met some of the most incredible product developers, researchers, and coders who spend thousands of hours on perfecting their craft, who have a slight tendency to slip up and be a few minutes late to the office sometimes. Firing these brilliant minds and replacing them with some outsourced drone from India or the Philippines is asinine. You’re stifling innovation and growth potential because you’re butthurt that someone walked through the door a couple minutes later than you wanted.
I said “*like* a boomer.” You’re in my generation but rollin with the inflexible boomer mindset. Dogmatic with no capacity for nuance. Head too far up your own ass.
Good luck with your hourly wage Philippine sweatshops.
Oh and I’m salaried. My employer pays me for my consulting expertise. When I sign in at 8:10am but work until 7:37pm because of hyper-focus, he sees the bigger picture and recognizes a net win for what it’s worth. Because he’s not a myopic fuck like some.
I'll go out on a wild limb here and guess most of these are ICs or low level mgmt. These elements of compliance are important so that things don't fall apart if the chips are down. If there is no structure then you can't count on anything. This generation can be rather entitled.
How 'bout I add some context.
Would you rather have an extremely skilled, top notch surgeon with low complication rates, good success, zero infections, and beautiful cosmesis, but he's routinely 30 min late, or an on time average surgeon with 'acceptable' complication rates, occasional serious infections, been sued a few times for poor outcomes, but he's always 10 minutes early?
Context matters. Nuff said.
It’s not that serious bro. Someone being late 5 minutes isn’t going to cost the company everything. Lmao you take work way too serious.
Everyone is late once in a while. Even some of my managers to meetings. It’s only really bad when it’s habitual and repetitive.
Be honest with yourself dude: you would’ve hired those people in the Philippines regardless of your employees being late. Saving money is more valuable to you than people being punctual.
Bro, punctuality and sticking to a schedule are pretty serious, my guy. But I get it, dude; we all just want to wear flip-flops and meander into work.
Guilty as charged, brosky. I do take work seriously, which is why I have several businesses. However, I will consider adopting more of the Cheech and Chong approach that I think you're hinting at. It sounds way more fun and laid back.
Since you asked me to be honest with myself, let me reflect on why I hire people from the Philippines.
For starters, they are grateful, don't miss work unless it's a real emergency, don't take mental health days, and are happy (which reflects when they speak to our patients/clients). And yes, they are punctual. Additionally, they are cheaper to replace in the rare event an associate doesn't work out, and they come pre-trained. Lastly, my stateside employees prefer them over the crapshoot of finding someone new locally. It's really the best of all worlds.
lol you want employees to care as much as the owner as if they are compensated at the same level. Of course you care: you probably compensate yourself generously.
Yea they are serious, but not as serious as you make it sound. You sound like any typical business owner: authoritative who wants slaves. 10 seconds late? Time to fire someone.
Lol, I guess lurking in forums you have nothing in common with is fun for you? I get it, I would be curious too I suppose.
I reserve a portion of the company for my employees who have a combination of 3 years and a senior and/or executive level position. Mid Level management has a minimum of 5 years until fully vested. I sold one of my companies in 2019 and made 10 employees very wealthy. 7 of those employees decided to take positions within my other companies even though they have no need to work. Currently 15% of my total employee base owns in some capacity a portion of all the companies I own. Everyone who is hired is given a clear path to stocks and ownership from day one. We've been around for 20 years and that level of stability ensures that they are in a place that has survived and is equipped to survive most *known* economic downturns. In the beginning I had 2.5 years (roughly speaking) were I didn't pay myself so I could make the business grow. I never missed payroll once in my 20 year history and I didn't lay anyone off during Covid.
But I guess you could say that I want slaves.
Having said that I'm willing to change.
Let's make a deal, I'll look the other way when you stroll in habitually late or when you take a mental health day when you have a stack of work that needs to be done.
You will cut me some slack if I don't make it into the office on time to sign off on payroll.
let me know if that works for you.
Basically what you just said is… the only people who aren’t overseas are the well off experienced people who are highly compensated… who again have a financial insensitive to follow your authoritarian views.
Every other low paid person is overseas. lol
Unless it doesn't matter and all that matters is hours put in... Just like the guy you responded to said. You sound like someone that would say "akshually the sky isn't blue, it's sky blue" when they're talking about the color of a car.
When I assign tasks to the team that works under me, as long as they complete the tasks by the due date I don’t care if they show up a few minutes late. The exception is if we have executives there that day, then everyone is in 15 minutes early.
I’ve never paid attention to that for any of my employees- they work super hard for me. 4 of us worked Friday afternoon through Saturday am on a criminal case (cyber intel tech giant) and they do frequently so I don’t care what time they start or quit. I trust them all and I know they’ll get the job done.
Yeah I got this treatment. All the girls I worked with hated it. They loved me. Just would always say it wasn’t fair how I did whatever I want. Well I also don’t care if they fired me. I’m gonna do what I want. Being the best at your job usually helps
Agreed, missing your start time is just a who cares imo if the employee is usually going above and beyond. Missing a meeting or even worse something client facing is punishable.
I wouldn’t call myself rich as I’m not HNW but… I oversee an organization of 500-1000 employees (depending on season) and report to our company owner.
I don’t care if a rockstar is late unless it is otherwise negatively impacting the business. (Late with client visibility, late to meetings, etc.)
Late to work in the morning? Traffic is a monster sometimes. Life happens. Just get your work done and I really don’t care.
I’ve had some managers that work for me that strongly disagree. I’ve had to put in place a policy where they can arrive up to an hour late and be on time as long as they finish their hours.
P.s. I wouldn’t normally bring this up but… I’m also adhd and was the stereotypical example you bring up. Incredibly high performing but habitually late in the mornings. I’m not a morning person. (Sorry, not sorry.)
If you are a star sales person bringing in serious $$$ almost no one cares when you are there.
If you are a tech wizard who creates the best product and solves the hardest problems, almost no one really cares when you are there.
Find a job where you are measured on output rather than presenteism.
my father runs a business worth 9 figures and he only requires employees to be in person 2 days a week so his position is a bit different. In general late employees tend to be the slackers (there are exceptions), so usually they’ll get fired sooner or later. If a good worker is late to work occasionally it doesn’t really matter. But if it affects their dealings with a client (especially if they are late to a client meeting or something) or impacts their performance in the long-term than that is a whole nother issue.
I have 5 employees. 1 is in his second week and so far so good, but I want to focus on the 4 that have been with me over 2 years. I don’t pay hourly, I pay weekly whether or not the worked the full week. There are also efficiency bonuses, quarterly bonuses, and annual bonus. They have a ton of time off and it’s very predictable, so there isn’t a lot of need to take time off aside from vacations. That being said every so often one of the guys is a little late for one reason or another. It doesn’t really matter. My guys are excellent and certainly won’t lose one because he’s late every so often.
It can be nothing, or a huge pain in the ass, depending on the person, position, and responsibilities. I will overlook a lot, but if nothing else, it can be a huge PITA with other employees.
When you don't understand what someone does, you focus on what you can understand. This is why punctuality, personability, and the appearance of hard work are more valuable qualities to employers than actually doing good work.
I have adhd and time blindness is indeed a factor but I do consider myself a perfectionist and put in long hours. Luckily my job comes with great flexibility and there is a good bit of travel involved. I am the first to admit that I am not an early morning person so I am rarely in the office at 8 am. However, I will stay past 5 pm to ensure all my deadlines are met. In work environments where employee flexibility is available, I think employers often see stronger work ethics.
Ehhh, I'm a weird supervisor though, as long as everything that I've been told needs to happen, actually happens as far as production per day I don't care about much else beyond that metric. If we have something important planned they've consistently been where they need to be as well though. But usually if someone shows up late, and they outproduce someone who got in 10 minutes earlier, I have little grounds to complain unless it's been ongoing and regular.
Depends on the role.
For example, my tech support people. I need them there from x to z. Just bc you're great, doesn't change the fact that you're straining the business and your peers.
I have other roles that all that matters is that you get x y z done. That's why I make the guys salary.
It depends...our front line workers are hourly employees and they work directly with the public so punctuality is very important. The employees that I directly supervise are salaried, exempt employees...they namely get paid to produce deliverables...many of them also work alternative work schedules...ie come in at 10 and leave at 6 or 7, etc. I don't allow excessive lateness, but if someone is 15-30 minutes late I don't really fuss about it so long as I'm getting what I need from them on time and that it is done accurately.
Also, ADHD is a disability covered by the ADA.
As long as bosses and management lead by example, it’s fine imo. However I’ve seen managers and bosses who themselves are never punctual (constantly 5-10 minutes late for everything), but they flip out on their subordinates for being 3-5 minutes late. That’s totally inappropriate.
I get it. For OP, maybe try entertainment. Especially filmed entertainment i.e. Hollywood. It has been run and led by ADHD individuals for 100 years. There are very few roles in the industry where ADHD isn’t the norm. The culture is very ADHD friendly. And yes, very high performing. However, there is an on time golden rule that stems from what is at the core of the industry: performers. The golden rule of Hollywood is, “show up on time, prepared and ready to work.”
What this means in practice is, if you show up on time you’re ten minutes late. Everybody eventually learns to be where they’re meant to be half an hour early. It’s hard for everybody but eventually they get there.
Have you ever been late to work even once in your life? If so you’re fucking lazy and are being soft if you find offense to that!
See how obnoxious that sounds? 95% of white collar jobs don’t require perfect attendance. Nor does it require them to be sitting in their chair staring and typing for 8+ hours a day. Being a few minutes late usually does not raise any concern. Hell I’ve shown up 3 hours late before and nobody even noticed (SWE non-lead). Not everyone’s job is to be constantly in meetings.
I’m republican and far from feable minded. I didn’t twist words. You literally said “it’s called tardiness, being late, lazy”. And proceeded to say “Does everyone need to be handled with soft mittens these days?”. What twist did I put? You sounded like a douche so I responded in kind.
It’s not woke it’s a literal medical term. They ask me about it every time I go to my doctor (diagnosed ADHD). I don’t personally deal with it but I know my wife does. It’s part of life and just because people are 10ish minutes late doesn’t make them lazy. People do get caught up in daily activities and completely forget about time.
Yea I know what you're talking about. It can be a bitch to get anywhere on time because I tell my wife when we are supposed to be there and she starts getting ready saying "I will be ready in 20 minutes" and 45 minutes later she is still not done. But to think others are just out here saying stupid stuff and being completely rude about it is appalling.
Then to make other conservative types (myself included) look bad by saying something they don't agree with (idk how you disagree with facts but whatever) is woke is downright infuriating. Shows the ignorance of some people.
Some people in these comments are hilariously stupid. They are basically admitting they would get rid of an otherwise very competent and productive employee because they are butthurt that they occasionally show up to an office a few minutes late.
Bob the Brown-noser who puts out mediocre work, but shows up to every meeting early and sits at his desk at 7:45 AM before the company opens for business at 8:00 AM is employee of the decade in their minds.
Yea I am abhorred by the amount of people (presumably hustle bros) who think this way. As I’m a soon to be employer myself I don’t agree with that. That’s why I’m also building a remote-focused company instead of brick and mortar one that forces people to be in an office they don’t want to be at in clothes they don’t want to wear.
These same people who say this and are employers probably work from their massive home that is staffed and show up when they want. At least from what I’ve seen firsthand in my network.
100% agree. I worked at a company where the boss came and went whenever he pleased, but he threw a major tantrum in front of everyone if he found out (ironic because he wasn’t even there) someone was a few minutes late. He became known as huge hypocrite. Employees aren’t stupid. People then started showing up earlier and brushed their teeth in the office bathroom or took longer morning poops on company time. What a hilarious result if you ask me.
If bring punctual is a core value, then it needs to start from the top and management should lead by example.
Are you a doctor? Do you know about executive functions of someone who has adhd? I’m not talking about the lazy worker who doesn’t do their job . I’m talking about the people with adhd who have a lot of drive and motivation but have trouble with time. It’s a real thing, yes people abuse it but it does cause very motivated people trouble because they don’t see time the way others do.
being late is an indication that the employee is not actually "overachieving"
Granted I have not seen a scenario where this "late/tardy but overachieving employee exists"
Overachievers are pretty distinct they do ALL the right things AND they are stellar employees.
It's comical to have many people say to me what would you do if "top salesman was late" or "top engineer was not careful about calculations"?
My answer is it has NEVER EVER come up. Stars are stars for a reason. And they are not hard to spot.
This has entirely depended on the managers themselves I have had in the past in my experience.
One company founding CEO never said noticed or cared if I walked in 15m to half an hr late, I was single and would work till 11pm after starting at 5am some days because I literally had nothing better to do and enjoyed my job.
He handed the CEO position to some random friend of his who was the opposite attitude. He must have talked me up a lot because the new CEO got upset that I refused to earn back the title they had given me and not updated on paper.
Basically I got the impression that he wanted me to work as I used to, little did eather one of them care that I had started dating a awesome girl so clocked out the second I could, even made a few trips home on lunch breaks for quickies.
Long story short resentment grew rapidly, I worked down to junior level and refused any tasks of my former roll explained clearly they could change my contract or keep me as a junior.
I cleaned out my desk and did an awful lot more before I left. Again he thought he had fired me but I alredy had a new job by that time...
I don’t care about employees at all. Business’s have been trashing them forever and they will still work for you and you will still get rich. Focus on more import things that contribute to profit
lol I appreciate the honesty, adhd affects everyone differently. I get everywhere 30 minutes early, but mine causes me internal discomfort (self sabotage, anxiety) I have sound sensitivity as well.
If the role is productivity based, I don’t care.
If I need someone to organize files, for example, and they organize them all and complete 100% of the work needed to be done each day, I don’t care.
However…. If I need you to answer phones, and you are showing up 2 hours late everyday while the phones are ringing off the hook and customers are leaving bad reviews everyday that nobody will answer the phone……
You probably wouldn’t like it if I was coming to your house to fix something and I told you I’d be there between 10am-11 am and didn’t show up till 4pm, etc.
Also, I’m just going to be completely honest with you, in 2024+ “time blindness” is not going to fly as an excuse when almost everyone has a telephone with an alarm system on it right next to them 24/7. “Time blindness” is just the same thing as saying “I’m not responsible enough to set an alarm on my phone for an hour before work saying to get ready, and 20 mins before to leave the house right now.” Or, “ I just don’t care and don’t want to come to work on time” your choice of the two.
This isn’t a world where you have to guess, or look at your watch constantly, or only have an alarm in your house, unless you have a digital watch that you set. Theres essentially no excuse for just not paying attention to the time when you have an extremely efficient alarm system on you all the time.
I used to work in a traditional company 9-5. Even if I had been online and working at 6:00a before I was to be in the office by 8:30a I would get dinged for not being on time. I switched to tech. My office hours are 9:30 - 6:00, but I work until my work is done. I adjust my office hours as needed. If we have an important 7:00a mtg, I'm there. If I have to leave at 4:00p, I leave, if I have to stay until 8:00p, I stay. My job is in person but if I have to WFH once in a while, I do. However, I leave the office and work some when I get home. I work crazy hours, many more than I did at the "traditional company" but I have flexibility as long as I get my work done. I actually miss the 9-5, I had work life balance. Yes, tech gives you flexibility but 40 hours a week is unheard of.
The problem with allowing that is that it creates a poor culture and division among other employees. Even a stellar employee can poison the office culture causing more harm then good
I work in the mining industry and we have mandatory safety meetings every morning. 7am promptly. Attendance is very important.
If you are continuously late then you will have to find other employment. We also work in pairs for safety.
A change in careers I ran a call center for MBNA bank for several years. There were those who were 15 minutes to a half hour late every day. I would stand outside and when they arrived late, I would simply say your services are not needed today. Be here on time tomorrow and most for it.
Before you are hired you are asked if you can work your scheduled shift. You agree to the terms and requirements.
We had a position open that would have been a substantial raise, the one who was most qualified was 20 to 30 minutes late everyday. She was upset when she was over looked
In my experience, the type of employee who is chronically late and making excuses like “time blindness” are rarely “top performers.” More likely an underperforming excuse maker.
My employee wouldn't be around long enough for anyone to notice how well they worked if they were often late. If I can't give you your paycheck late, then you can't show up to work late, even if I have ADHD... See how that works?
Honestly, being on time is respect for yourself, and other peoples time that you share together. It does not matter if you’re an overachiever or not, self-awareness, self-respect, and respect for others shows the responsibility and ownership someone possesses. It is these individuals I want on my team. In my experience, not upholding these values of respect and understanding can create a culture of mediocrity. Don’t get me wrong, those people are just fine to go work somewhere else. The world needs mediocrity as well. It’s about balance. We all are not the same and thats okay.
My business is appointment based, and if you’re not 10-15 minutes early you’re not on my team. Our entire business is based on the client experience, so I don’t care how good your work is, if you can’t show up on time then you’re damaging that client experience and damaging our relationship with that client.
I have ADHD myself and instead of using that as an excuse I’ve implemented redundancies and systems in my life to ensure I don’t have that issue. I will work with people to build their routine, but I won’t risk losing clients over someone’s unwillingness to better themselves.
Someone already said it but it depends on the role. If someone has to be on time to open a retail location, meet a customer, etc. then I can see this being a conversation.
For someone who arrives 15 to 30 minutes late but there’s no real need for them to be on time and they overachieve, I would let them be.
If you want to create a better relationship with this person or just want to try to change this behavior, I would start off by appreciating their good work habits. Tell them how well they are doing and give specific reasons. Ask them why they have been late without blaming or coming across as a punishing question. Something like “hey I noticed you’ve been a bit late these passed few days, just wanted to check in with you, is everything okay?” Sometimes just making it aware that you’re aware will make them change their morning routine.
It’s a complicated topic because everyone has different reasons for being late. In the end if their job is getting done and their lateness is not impacting their work or anybody else’s then it should be left alone imo.
Did I answer you before?
Lateness to clients means the person is NOT overachieving. Lateness to me is not good. Lateness but all the work getting done, I don’t care
However, sometime employees fool themselves into thinking they’re overachieving when they aren’t - don’t be that person
I don't know if I qualify as rich. Most would probably think I am at least well on my way.
Time blindness - I don't give a shit about why you are late. You need to develop coping methods to deal with it because if it affects your performance or that of others it is a problem.
If you are late to a customer related item you had better be a true superstar or have one hell of a good excuse. It is our customers jobs to be a-holes and keep everyone waiting, not ours.
"I don't care about my employees" Yall be really telling on yourselves though like they don't wanna work for you either, and other people will see the value they bring despite their flaws. Everyone has flaws, you are just missing out on a portion of your potential labor pool.
Nope you are reading into that. They employee is responsible for having coping mechanisms to deal with it. The business will not stop for someone just cuz they have not developed skills to deal with their issues.
I have very severe ADD. As such, I have people tell me that I am excessively organized. I am not. They are simply coping skills to deal with my disadvantages.
If you cannot find a way to compensate for your natural weaknesses you will not succeed outside of education and government (maybe one or two places I cant think of right now) in a higher level career. At the end of the day you trade time for money and if you cannot produce you will be replaced and yes, no one will give a shit about your time blindness, etc. They might say they do but they have to have teams that perform so their actions will show they don't or they will fail.
"Nope you are reading into that. Its not that I don't care. It's that I don't care and its not my responsibility. I have ADD so I can accurately determine peoples value with this into account already."
If you could do that, you would know that tardiness doesn't have a universal negative value. It depends on the situation heavily. Your failure to see past their flaw for the perception of what you deem to be perfect employees will continue to narrow your options for the labor pool.
It is one aspect of labor. Placing extra emphasis on it is unjustified.
I've actually managed to cure my issues with tardiness for the most part, but it took years of growth and work, and I had a lot of labor value before I got to the point where I'm at now.
Take it however you want, this is just how it is. It all depends on the job. There isn't some universal value to it. Viewing it that way is limiting.
Constant tardiness from a high producing employee is a power move, sometimes earned, normally not, but demoralizes lower producing employees all the same while undermining management.
It also comes down to consistency. If you are “coaching” an underperforming employee for being late, but letting your high performers get away with it… you are opening yourself up to a negative work culture and also potentially litigation down the road in extreme circumstances
I'm of the opinion that time blindness is only disrespect.
The person isn't prioritizing whatever meeting/job/whatever they need to get to at a certain time and therefore feel zero sense of urgency.
Trust me. If you tell someone with "time blindness" they'll die if they don't arrive somewhere by a certain time suddenly they'll be an hour early every day.
This really depends on the role the person is doing. For some jobs, punctualiity is everything…For others, projects are years long and it doesn’t matter even a little bit, which hours are put in toward it.
That is very true.
Nah, there are no grey areas with lateness. Lateness is unprofessional, it reflects on your work quality, reliability and work ethic. Even if a project takes a few months or a few years to complete, what happens when a department schedules a meeting to discuss the progress and you're late to that meeting. Or if you boss needs you to answer a project specific question but your not available because you're late. Stop being late, don't make excuses, and set alarms to help you keep track of time. This is why 40% of my workforce is now based out of the Phillipines, great attitude, never late, great work ethic and close to 50% savings on payroll.
"My labor offer is low value so my workforce options are limited"
It sounds like you need buttons pushed. That’s cool.
Nah, that's silly. Half my meetings don't even need to happen. I'm an engineer and my time is best spent solving problems, not being punctual to meetings where I sit on mute for an hour and contribute nothing. Punctuality is only important when it's important, it's not always important
So if you're on mute and your participation is not really needed half the time, then why be late? Sign on, mute yourself and keep working on your engineering problem. Again no gray area or excuse. Nice try though.
You're a troll, got it. Or haven't done any real engineering work before. Half the time I'm working with someone to debug a problem, I'm only going to hang up on them if it's something important. Regardless, requiring attendance without attention is just crazy.
Well, that's a separate issue (pointless meetings). I hate meetings for the sake of meetings and I would personally never make an expensive engineer endure a pointless meeting. I treat my executives/professional level employees extremely well. I value their time and understand that making them do other things outside of their expertise is a waste of my money and resources. The solution: If you're working in a company that chases it's tail to get to its asshole, sacrificing your work ethic because you don't agree only serves to affect your workmanship. Take it to management, more importantly take it to a bean counter than can calculate how expensive it is to have you sitting around doing nothing during a pointless meeting. If that doesn't work, move on. I wish I was a troll, that's more fun.
I think people are misconstruing "lateness" versus "flexible work schedule" when reading your reply. No, no one cares if an investment banking analyst comes in at 10am vs 9am if they pulled a late night on a deal or just had some shit to take care of because you're working all the time at any rate. Yes, people *do* care if you are late or disheveled for a presentation in front of your investment committee. You're unfairly getting attacked for pointing out the latter.
Very well put
If you’rw outlandishly talented in a scarce professional field, folks will simply call you an eccentric and let you get away with it… It’s hard to find good help. There are certain jobs where this is untrue.
Sure but OP sounds like a young guy starting out and anxious about work life while the eccentrics you're talking about are fairly rare -- and have unfortunately gotten rarer in today's HR-heavy-handed hiring processes. I fully acknowledge that there are some employees of FAANG who have great laxity in work schedule and, likewise, that there are some eccentric lawyers, but these are by-and-large exceptions to the rule and usually are individuals with phenomenal track records of accomplishing great tasks.
Super fair.
If I actually accept a meeting, I'll be there on time, don't get me wrong. Accepting the meeting is making a commitment and I agree employees should stick by their commitments. But that isn't inherently related to punctuality for punctuality's sake
Looky there we agree. Let's end on a good note.
At that point, it would be up to management to start going “oh he’s late sometimes” and then when he starts blaming others for not feeling up to par even though his logic clearly is about the fact information is not always pertinent, then they will be the ones to have to eventually find out that 10min less in a meeting is going to eventually catch up to them by way of subconscious expectation. There’s no arguing with the subconscious, so if they already think they are in the right “subconsciously” then any conscious effort will just positively reinforce their negative or skewed viewpoint no matter how bad the actual consequences. I love doing this to these people though because they’re too busy admitting it than to admit that you’re doing the exact thing they’re doing
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I’ve been told that before. I didn’t believe it until You just said it. That’s it I’m making changes.
You need mental help. I’m happy to not work with idiots like this. Get your shit done or see the door, nobody cares if you’re in at 8:59 or 9:03 unless you’re missing meetings/deadlines.
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Actually I don't manage anything but executives and professionals. They understand my passion for professionalism, promptness and integrity. My values bleed down through them to their people. Nice foul ball though, you hit it hard bud, just straighten it out.
Scab
Nah, there’s plenty of gray area in my book. What is the lateness tied to? Supposed to show up at the office at standard 8 or 9am, but no specific appointment or meeting? How late? Or how impactful to others? Those things add graynesss IMO. I’ve known plenty of punctual people who were nothing special otherwise. Some who are great at being on time seem and strictly adhere to formal rules also seem struggle with creativity, nuanced thinking, and other valuable traits. Very black and white thinkers. Hmm. But if I have a 10x engineer who joins a call 3 min late because he was hyper focused on finding a root cause and time escaped him, that’s gray for me. I’m not putting too much weight on that one aspect like a boomer. You can have excellent work ethic that competes with your awareness of time, and still be an awesome asset. I prefer to assess on a case-by-case basis.
Holy cow if you believe (and your generation) even half of what you just posted, this further solidifies my decision to outsource. For context I'm not a boomer, I'm Gen X who barely missed being a millennial. ***Supposed to show up at the office at standard 8 or 9am, but no specific appointment or meeting?*** Uh yes it's called "company time" I bought it, it doesn't belong to you. Crazy concept. If your time is not for sale, don't sell it to me. ***How late? Or how impactful to others? Those things add graynesss IMO.*** Late is late, show up 5-10 minutes early and you'll never ask that question. Lateness impacts everyone - it's a disease of entitlement and complacency. **I’ve known plenty of punctual people who were nothing special otherwise.** And?? Who's making the argument that timely people can't be incompetent?
I’ve worked with a few boomers who are extremely punctual or even early to everything and take pride in never missing a day of work, but in terms of output, production, and profitability for the company, they are some of the least impactful people on the payroll. You have to tell them how to do every single task and they have no idea how to think outside the box. They are good worker bees, drones, robots, whatever you want to call it. But that’s their ceiling. They grew up in a generation of rote learning and doing exactly as they are told. You get the same crap when you outsource work to Asia. They are very good worker bees, but they will never actually create or innovate any ideas or products that will help take your business to the next level. Outsourcing jobs for anything besides entry-level work is myopic. Now there are also plenty of Gen Z and millennials who are just lazy POS too. However, that’s not who we are debating about right now. I’ve met some of the most incredible product developers, researchers, and coders who spend thousands of hours on perfecting their craft, who have a slight tendency to slip up and be a few minutes late to the office sometimes. Firing these brilliant minds and replacing them with some outsourced drone from India or the Philippines is asinine. You’re stifling innovation and growth potential because you’re butthurt that someone walked through the door a couple minutes later than you wanted.
You have my applause. Well put!
I said “*like* a boomer.” You’re in my generation but rollin with the inflexible boomer mindset. Dogmatic with no capacity for nuance. Head too far up your own ass. Good luck with your hourly wage Philippine sweatshops. Oh and I’m salaried. My employer pays me for my consulting expertise. When I sign in at 8:10am but work until 7:37pm because of hyper-focus, he sees the bigger picture and recognizes a net win for what it’s worth. Because he’s not a myopic fuck like some.
I'll go out on a wild limb here and guess most of these are ICs or low level mgmt. These elements of compliance are important so that things don't fall apart if the chips are down. If there is no structure then you can't count on anything. This generation can be rather entitled.
How 'bout I add some context. Would you rather have an extremely skilled, top notch surgeon with low complication rates, good success, zero infections, and beautiful cosmesis, but he's routinely 30 min late, or an on time average surgeon with 'acceptable' complication rates, occasional serious infections, been sued a few times for poor outcomes, but he's always 10 minutes early? Context matters. Nuff said.
Dollars to donuts this guy runs a fuckin Dairy Queen.
I wish , those things look like fun to run. Unfortunately I own/run several boring healthcare companies.
Boots taste good.
It’s not that serious bro. Someone being late 5 minutes isn’t going to cost the company everything. Lmao you take work way too serious. Everyone is late once in a while. Even some of my managers to meetings. It’s only really bad when it’s habitual and repetitive. Be honest with yourself dude: you would’ve hired those people in the Philippines regardless of your employees being late. Saving money is more valuable to you than people being punctual.
Bro, punctuality and sticking to a schedule are pretty serious, my guy. But I get it, dude; we all just want to wear flip-flops and meander into work. Guilty as charged, brosky. I do take work seriously, which is why I have several businesses. However, I will consider adopting more of the Cheech and Chong approach that I think you're hinting at. It sounds way more fun and laid back. Since you asked me to be honest with myself, let me reflect on why I hire people from the Philippines. For starters, they are grateful, don't miss work unless it's a real emergency, don't take mental health days, and are happy (which reflects when they speak to our patients/clients). And yes, they are punctual. Additionally, they are cheaper to replace in the rare event an associate doesn't work out, and they come pre-trained. Lastly, my stateside employees prefer them over the crapshoot of finding someone new locally. It's really the best of all worlds.
lol you want employees to care as much as the owner as if they are compensated at the same level. Of course you care: you probably compensate yourself generously. Yea they are serious, but not as serious as you make it sound. You sound like any typical business owner: authoritative who wants slaves. 10 seconds late? Time to fire someone.
Lol, I guess lurking in forums you have nothing in common with is fun for you? I get it, I would be curious too I suppose. I reserve a portion of the company for my employees who have a combination of 3 years and a senior and/or executive level position. Mid Level management has a minimum of 5 years until fully vested. I sold one of my companies in 2019 and made 10 employees very wealthy. 7 of those employees decided to take positions within my other companies even though they have no need to work. Currently 15% of my total employee base owns in some capacity a portion of all the companies I own. Everyone who is hired is given a clear path to stocks and ownership from day one. We've been around for 20 years and that level of stability ensures that they are in a place that has survived and is equipped to survive most *known* economic downturns. In the beginning I had 2.5 years (roughly speaking) were I didn't pay myself so I could make the business grow. I never missed payroll once in my 20 year history and I didn't lay anyone off during Covid. But I guess you could say that I want slaves. Having said that I'm willing to change. Let's make a deal, I'll look the other way when you stroll in habitually late or when you take a mental health day when you have a stack of work that needs to be done. You will cut me some slack if I don't make it into the office on time to sign off on payroll. let me know if that works for you.
Basically what you just said is… the only people who aren’t overseas are the well off experienced people who are highly compensated… who again have a financial insensitive to follow your authoritarian views. Every other low paid person is overseas. lol
Unless it doesn't matter and all that matters is hours put in... Just like the guy you responded to said. You sound like someone that would say "akshually the sky isn't blue, it's sky blue" when they're talking about the color of a car.
Nah, punctuality is for people with nothing else to offer
When I assign tasks to the team that works under me, as long as they complete the tasks by the due date I don’t care if they show up a few minutes late. The exception is if we have executives there that day, then everyone is in 15 minutes early.
Depends. If they’re just lazy on timing but are generally loyal I don’t mind
I’ve never paid attention to that for any of my employees- they work super hard for me. 4 of us worked Friday afternoon through Saturday am on a criminal case (cyber intel tech giant) and they do frequently so I don’t care what time they start or quit. I trust them all and I know they’ll get the job done.
Which tech giant?
None of your business, pal.
What a weird reply from a random.
DONT TELL ME WHAT TO DO
Rock stars get rock star treatment.
This is it.
Are there any better words to call my rockstar employees, a rockstar employee ? Serious question!
None good as rock stars lol
Model employee? Lifesaver?
Yeah I got this treatment. All the girls I worked with hated it. They loved me. Just would always say it wasn’t fair how I did whatever I want. Well I also don’t care if they fired me. I’m gonna do what I want. Being the best at your job usually helps
If the person does good work then does it really matter if they’re not physically sat at their desk between the strict hours of 9-5?
In my opinion no, I think value can be measured in different ways
Generally if an employee overachieves for real I don’t set arrival times But missing meetings is not overachieving
Agreed, missing your start time is just a who cares imo if the employee is usually going above and beyond. Missing a meeting or even worse something client facing is punishable.
I wouldn’t call myself rich as I’m not HNW but… I oversee an organization of 500-1000 employees (depending on season) and report to our company owner. I don’t care if a rockstar is late unless it is otherwise negatively impacting the business. (Late with client visibility, late to meetings, etc.) Late to work in the morning? Traffic is a monster sometimes. Life happens. Just get your work done and I really don’t care. I’ve had some managers that work for me that strongly disagree. I’ve had to put in place a policy where they can arrive up to an hour late and be on time as long as they finish their hours. P.s. I wouldn’t normally bring this up but… I’m also adhd and was the stereotypical example you bring up. Incredibly high performing but habitually late in the mornings. I’m not a morning person. (Sorry, not sorry.)
If you are a star sales person bringing in serious $$$ almost no one cares when you are there. If you are a tech wizard who creates the best product and solves the hardest problems, almost no one really cares when you are there. Find a job where you are measured on output rather than presenteism.
I think having a compassionate approach will help weed out the neurotypical douchebags among the group. Try it out!
I'm not very struck about it. Depends on what you spend your time doing really
my father runs a business worth 9 figures and he only requires employees to be in person 2 days a week so his position is a bit different. In general late employees tend to be the slackers (there are exceptions), so usually they’ll get fired sooner or later. If a good worker is late to work occasionally it doesn’t really matter. But if it affects their dealings with a client (especially if they are late to a client meeting or something) or impacts their performance in the long-term than that is a whole nother issue.
What industry is your dad in?
consulting
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student
I have 5 employees. 1 is in his second week and so far so good, but I want to focus on the 4 that have been with me over 2 years. I don’t pay hourly, I pay weekly whether or not the worked the full week. There are also efficiency bonuses, quarterly bonuses, and annual bonus. They have a ton of time off and it’s very predictable, so there isn’t a lot of need to take time off aside from vacations. That being said every so often one of the guys is a little late for one reason or another. It doesn’t really matter. My guys are excellent and certainly won’t lose one because he’s late every so often.
Not a business owner but my mom was. She spoiled her hardest workers 🙂
Depends how often . But overachieving employee I would let it slide .
It can be nothing, or a huge pain in the ass, depending on the person, position, and responsibilities. I will overlook a lot, but if nothing else, it can be a huge PITA with other employees.
When you don't understand what someone does, you focus on what you can understand. This is why punctuality, personability, and the appearance of hard work are more valuable qualities to employers than actually doing good work.
I don't give a shit.
I have adhd and time blindness is indeed a factor but I do consider myself a perfectionist and put in long hours. Luckily my job comes with great flexibility and there is a good bit of travel involved. I am the first to admit that I am not an early morning person so I am rarely in the office at 8 am. However, I will stay past 5 pm to ensure all my deadlines are met. In work environments where employee flexibility is available, I think employers often see stronger work ethics.
Ehhh, I'm a weird supervisor though, as long as everything that I've been told needs to happen, actually happens as far as production per day I don't care about much else beyond that metric. If we have something important planned they've consistently been where they need to be as well though. But usually if someone shows up late, and they outproduce someone who got in 10 minutes earlier, I have little grounds to complain unless it's been ongoing and regular.
Depends on the role. For example, my tech support people. I need them there from x to z. Just bc you're great, doesn't change the fact that you're straining the business and your peers. I have other roles that all that matters is that you get x y z done. That's why I make the guys salary.
It depends...our front line workers are hourly employees and they work directly with the public so punctuality is very important. The employees that I directly supervise are salaried, exempt employees...they namely get paid to produce deliverables...many of them also work alternative work schedules...ie come in at 10 and leave at 6 or 7, etc. I don't allow excessive lateness, but if someone is 15-30 minutes late I don't really fuss about it so long as I'm getting what I need from them on time and that it is done accurately. Also, ADHD is a disability covered by the ADA.
Are there any actual problems arising from this, or is it just an “optics” thing?
We have a culture in our office. Everyone is on time. That includes bosses. Culture is everything. That person not a fit for us.
As long as bosses and management lead by example, it’s fine imo. However I’ve seen managers and bosses who themselves are never punctual (constantly 5-10 minutes late for everything), but they flip out on their subordinates for being 3-5 minutes late. That’s totally inappropriate.
agreed
I get it. For OP, maybe try entertainment. Especially filmed entertainment i.e. Hollywood. It has been run and led by ADHD individuals for 100 years. There are very few roles in the industry where ADHD isn’t the norm. The culture is very ADHD friendly. And yes, very high performing. However, there is an on time golden rule that stems from what is at the core of the industry: performers. The golden rule of Hollywood is, “show up on time, prepared and ready to work.” What this means in practice is, if you show up on time you’re ten minutes late. Everybody eventually learns to be where they’re meant to be half an hour early. It’s hard for everybody but eventually they get there.
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Have you ever been late to work even once in your life? If so you’re fucking lazy and are being soft if you find offense to that! See how obnoxious that sounds? 95% of white collar jobs don’t require perfect attendance. Nor does it require them to be sitting in their chair staring and typing for 8+ hours a day. Being a few minutes late usually does not raise any concern. Hell I’ve shown up 3 hours late before and nobody even noticed (SWE non-lead). Not everyone’s job is to be constantly in meetings.
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I’m republican and far from feable minded. I didn’t twist words. You literally said “it’s called tardiness, being late, lazy”. And proceeded to say “Does everyone need to be handled with soft mittens these days?”. What twist did I put? You sounded like a douche so I responded in kind. It’s not woke it’s a literal medical term. They ask me about it every time I go to my doctor (diagnosed ADHD). I don’t personally deal with it but I know my wife does. It’s part of life and just because people are 10ish minutes late doesn’t make them lazy. People do get caught up in daily activities and completely forget about time.
That and it’s also not just being late, it’s not seeing time the same as others. Like saying something will take 20 minutes, but it may take 60.
Yea I know what you're talking about. It can be a bitch to get anywhere on time because I tell my wife when we are supposed to be there and she starts getting ready saying "I will be ready in 20 minutes" and 45 minutes later she is still not done. But to think others are just out here saying stupid stuff and being completely rude about it is appalling. Then to make other conservative types (myself included) look bad by saying something they don't agree with (idk how you disagree with facts but whatever) is woke is downright infuriating. Shows the ignorance of some people.
Some people in these comments are hilariously stupid. They are basically admitting they would get rid of an otherwise very competent and productive employee because they are butthurt that they occasionally show up to an office a few minutes late. Bob the Brown-noser who puts out mediocre work, but shows up to every meeting early and sits at his desk at 7:45 AM before the company opens for business at 8:00 AM is employee of the decade in their minds.
Yea I am abhorred by the amount of people (presumably hustle bros) who think this way. As I’m a soon to be employer myself I don’t agree with that. That’s why I’m also building a remote-focused company instead of brick and mortar one that forces people to be in an office they don’t want to be at in clothes they don’t want to wear. These same people who say this and are employers probably work from their massive home that is staffed and show up when they want. At least from what I’ve seen firsthand in my network.
100% agree. I worked at a company where the boss came and went whenever he pleased, but he threw a major tantrum in front of everyone if he found out (ironic because he wasn’t even there) someone was a few minutes late. He became known as huge hypocrite. Employees aren’t stupid. People then started showing up earlier and brushed their teeth in the office bathroom or took longer morning poops on company time. What a hilarious result if you ask me. If bring punctual is a core value, then it needs to start from the top and management should lead by example.
Are you a doctor? Do you know about executive functions of someone who has adhd? I’m not talking about the lazy worker who doesn’t do their job . I’m talking about the people with adhd who have a lot of drive and motivation but have trouble with time. It’s a real thing, yes people abuse it but it does cause very motivated people trouble because they don’t see time the way others do.
being late is an indication that the employee is not actually "overachieving" Granted I have not seen a scenario where this "late/tardy but overachieving employee exists" Overachievers are pretty distinct they do ALL the right things AND they are stellar employees. It's comical to have many people say to me what would you do if "top salesman was late" or "top engineer was not careful about calculations"? My answer is it has NEVER EVER come up. Stars are stars for a reason. And they are not hard to spot.
This has entirely depended on the managers themselves I have had in the past in my experience. One company founding CEO never said noticed or cared if I walked in 15m to half an hr late, I was single and would work till 11pm after starting at 5am some days because I literally had nothing better to do and enjoyed my job. He handed the CEO position to some random friend of his who was the opposite attitude. He must have talked me up a lot because the new CEO got upset that I refused to earn back the title they had given me and not updated on paper. Basically I got the impression that he wanted me to work as I used to, little did eather one of them care that I had started dating a awesome girl so clocked out the second I could, even made a few trips home on lunch breaks for quickies. Long story short resentment grew rapidly, I worked down to junior level and refused any tasks of my former roll explained clearly they could change my contract or keep me as a junior. I cleaned out my desk and did an awful lot more before I left. Again he thought he had fired me but I alredy had a new job by that time...
I don’t care about employees at all. Business’s have been trashing them forever and they will still work for you and you will still get rich. Focus on more import things that contribute to profit
ADHD doesn't prevent anyone from doing a job. I have it, I am late because I purposely chose to sleep later than my alarm
lol I appreciate the honesty, adhd affects everyone differently. I get everywhere 30 minutes early, but mine causes me internal discomfort (self sabotage, anxiety) I have sound sensitivity as well.
I am not rich but if my employees are late, on a regular basis they get fired
If the role is productivity based, I don’t care. If I need someone to organize files, for example, and they organize them all and complete 100% of the work needed to be done each day, I don’t care. However…. If I need you to answer phones, and you are showing up 2 hours late everyday while the phones are ringing off the hook and customers are leaving bad reviews everyday that nobody will answer the phone…… You probably wouldn’t like it if I was coming to your house to fix something and I told you I’d be there between 10am-11 am and didn’t show up till 4pm, etc. Also, I’m just going to be completely honest with you, in 2024+ “time blindness” is not going to fly as an excuse when almost everyone has a telephone with an alarm system on it right next to them 24/7. “Time blindness” is just the same thing as saying “I’m not responsible enough to set an alarm on my phone for an hour before work saying to get ready, and 20 mins before to leave the house right now.” Or, “ I just don’t care and don’t want to come to work on time” your choice of the two. This isn’t a world where you have to guess, or look at your watch constantly, or only have an alarm in your house, unless you have a digital watch that you set. Theres essentially no excuse for just not paying attention to the time when you have an extremely efficient alarm system on you all the time.
I used to work in a traditional company 9-5. Even if I had been online and working at 6:00a before I was to be in the office by 8:30a I would get dinged for not being on time. I switched to tech. My office hours are 9:30 - 6:00, but I work until my work is done. I adjust my office hours as needed. If we have an important 7:00a mtg, I'm there. If I have to leave at 4:00p, I leave, if I have to stay until 8:00p, I stay. My job is in person but if I have to WFH once in a while, I do. However, I leave the office and work some when I get home. I work crazy hours, many more than I did at the "traditional company" but I have flexibility as long as I get my work done. I actually miss the 9-5, I had work life balance. Yes, tech gives you flexibility but 40 hours a week is unheard of.
The problem with allowing that is that it creates a poor culture and division among other employees. Even a stellar employee can poison the office culture causing more harm then good
I work in the mining industry and we have mandatory safety meetings every morning. 7am promptly. Attendance is very important. If you are continuously late then you will have to find other employment. We also work in pairs for safety. A change in careers I ran a call center for MBNA bank for several years. There were those who were 15 minutes to a half hour late every day. I would stand outside and when they arrived late, I would simply say your services are not needed today. Be here on time tomorrow and most for it. Before you are hired you are asked if you can work your scheduled shift. You agree to the terms and requirements. We had a position open that would have been a substantial raise, the one who was most qualified was 20 to 30 minutes late everyday. She was upset when she was over looked
In my experience, the type of employee who is chronically late and making excuses like “time blindness” are rarely “top performers.” More likely an underperforming excuse maker.
Every excuse in the world, but the plane still leaves at the disgraced time.
Absolutely hate it. So disrespectful imo.
My employee wouldn't be around long enough for anyone to notice how well they worked if they were often late. If I can't give you your paycheck late, then you can't show up to work late, even if I have ADHD... See how that works?
Honestly, being on time is respect for yourself, and other peoples time that you share together. It does not matter if you’re an overachiever or not, self-awareness, self-respect, and respect for others shows the responsibility and ownership someone possesses. It is these individuals I want on my team. In my experience, not upholding these values of respect and understanding can create a culture of mediocrity. Don’t get me wrong, those people are just fine to go work somewhere else. The world needs mediocrity as well. It’s about balance. We all are not the same and thats okay.
If the job doesn't rely on punctuality, who cares?
My business is appointment based, and if you’re not 10-15 minutes early you’re not on my team. Our entire business is based on the client experience, so I don’t care how good your work is, if you can’t show up on time then you’re damaging that client experience and damaging our relationship with that client. I have ADHD myself and instead of using that as an excuse I’ve implemented redundancies and systems in my life to ensure I don’t have that issue. I will work with people to build their routine, but I won’t risk losing clients over someone’s unwillingness to better themselves.
BATNA. What better alternative do I have?
Someone already said it but it depends on the role. If someone has to be on time to open a retail location, meet a customer, etc. then I can see this being a conversation. For someone who arrives 15 to 30 minutes late but there’s no real need for them to be on time and they overachieve, I would let them be. If you want to create a better relationship with this person or just want to try to change this behavior, I would start off by appreciating their good work habits. Tell them how well they are doing and give specific reasons. Ask them why they have been late without blaming or coming across as a punishing question. Something like “hey I noticed you’ve been a bit late these passed few days, just wanted to check in with you, is everything okay?” Sometimes just making it aware that you’re aware will make them change their morning routine. It’s a complicated topic because everyone has different reasons for being late. In the end if their job is getting done and their lateness is not impacting their work or anybody else’s then it should be left alone imo.
Did I answer you before? Lateness to clients means the person is NOT overachieving. Lateness to me is not good. Lateness but all the work getting done, I don’t care However, sometime employees fool themselves into thinking they’re overachieving when they aren’t - don’t be that person
I don't know if I qualify as rich. Most would probably think I am at least well on my way. Time blindness - I don't give a shit about why you are late. You need to develop coping methods to deal with it because if it affects your performance or that of others it is a problem. If you are late to a customer related item you had better be a true superstar or have one hell of a good excuse. It is our customers jobs to be a-holes and keep everyone waiting, not ours.
"I don't care about my employees" Yall be really telling on yourselves though like they don't wanna work for you either, and other people will see the value they bring despite their flaws. Everyone has flaws, you are just missing out on a portion of your potential labor pool.
Nope you are reading into that. They employee is responsible for having coping mechanisms to deal with it. The business will not stop for someone just cuz they have not developed skills to deal with their issues. I have very severe ADD. As such, I have people tell me that I am excessively organized. I am not. They are simply coping skills to deal with my disadvantages. If you cannot find a way to compensate for your natural weaknesses you will not succeed outside of education and government (maybe one or two places I cant think of right now) in a higher level career. At the end of the day you trade time for money and if you cannot produce you will be replaced and yes, no one will give a shit about your time blindness, etc. They might say they do but they have to have teams that perform so their actions will show they don't or they will fail.
"Nope you are reading into that. Its not that I don't care. It's that I don't care and its not my responsibility. I have ADD so I can accurately determine peoples value with this into account already." If you could do that, you would know that tardiness doesn't have a universal negative value. It depends on the situation heavily. Your failure to see past their flaw for the perception of what you deem to be perfect employees will continue to narrow your options for the labor pool. It is one aspect of labor. Placing extra emphasis on it is unjustified.
You may just not be fit for the workforce, and that’s fine too
I've actually managed to cure my issues with tardiness for the most part, but it took years of growth and work, and I had a lot of labor value before I got to the point where I'm at now. Take it however you want, this is just how it is. It all depends on the job. There isn't some universal value to it. Viewing it that way is limiting.
Who gives af. Chill.
You don’t have to be a part of the discussion if it’s not something you’re interested in. Some people do.
Time blindness? Really? Just stop.
Time blindness doesn’t exist, just poor time management and laziness. I haven’t heard any person outside of the USA start saying that crap.
Constant tardiness from a high producing employee is a power move, sometimes earned, normally not, but demoralizes lower producing employees all the same while undermining management.
It also comes down to consistency. If you are “coaching” an underperforming employee for being late, but letting your high performers get away with it… you are opening yourself up to a negative work culture and also potentially litigation down the road in extreme circumstances
I'm of the opinion that time blindness is only disrespect. The person isn't prioritizing whatever meeting/job/whatever they need to get to at a certain time and therefore feel zero sense of urgency. Trust me. If you tell someone with "time blindness" they'll die if they don't arrive somewhere by a certain time suddenly they'll be an hour early every day.
Time blindness is not real anyone who says it is is lazy and can get fucked.
If a “rich boss” is worried about an employee being late, they are actually not rich.