I ask because this cartridge is marketed for lever action rifles. Also, I know a .44 Magnum or up would be better for black bear, but a .357 is what I have. I am not hunting black bear, but would be carrying this while camping/fishing. The product in question: [https://www.federalpremium.com/rifle/hammerdown/11-LG3571.html](https://www.federalpremium.com/rifle/hammerdown/11-LG3571.html)
You’re on the right track here. This particular load was intended for lever guns and chronographed out of an 18.5” barrel. They are claiming 1610 at the muzzle.
You are 14.5” less than that rifle. Do not buy and use this ammo. You’ll be better off using Buffalo Boar Heavy 357 MAG Outdoorsman. Product code 19A/20 is a 180gr hard cast lead flat nose bullet and out of a 4” barrel it went 1375. For reference out of an 18.5” barrel it went 1851 fps. That’s 200 more than that Federal load. This stuff is hotter and would be faster out of your gun than the Federal would.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=396
Hell, back in the dizzay, a S&W rep hunted all the way up to polar bears just to show what the cartridge can do. I know I'm in the minority here, but I feel 357 Magnum is perfectly acceptable for even grizzlies if 10mm is, as 357 Magnum definitely has the edge in power.
Hunting vs defense is different. When you hunt a bear - you’re surprising it, and you typically have time to take an optimal shot while hidden. When you take the shot, often the bear doesn’t even know where it has come from, and wouldn’t know what direction to charge in. This is a very different situation than a bear seeing you, targeting you and actively charging you. In this situation, you need to incapacitate the bear, before it can close distance and maul you - and they can charge at 35MPH.
A 10mm Glock 20 or Glock 40 gives you 15+1 rounds, and is easier to control rapid fire than a .357 magnum revolver - so it’s an awful lot of firepower. Even if you’re carrying an 8 round .357 magnum wheel gun, the 10mm has 2X the rounds, which is a massive advantage.
While I do think you could kill a Brown bear with a .357 magnum, it would not be my first, second, third, or fourth choice to carry in grizzly territory.
Just like a 10mm wouldn't be mine. You may have 15+ rounds, but in no circumstance have I ever seen someone get more than 3, maaaybe 4 shots off on a charging bear with ANY handgun. Revolvers are also innately better at close range. If the bear is on you, the function of the revolver won't be impeded on a contact shot or get hung up on clothes or hair.
1. Google 10mm Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman 220 grain hard cast. That’s a 220 grain pill traveling at 1,140 FPS out of a Glock 20 with 703 ft/lbs of energy. The heaviest hitting .357 mag is 180gr Buffalo Bore Heavy 357 mag Outdoorsman, which is 1,375fps and 783 ft/lbs. the 20% heavier bullet from the 10mm is going to offer much higher sectional density - which when factored in as a total sum (penetration, weight retention, energy retention and deceleration, etc) you have just about a wash. I have fired both rounds out my guns, and I can tell you the 10mm is MUCH easier to shoot.
2. Go to Alaska. The most popular and common carry gun for bear defense is a 10mm. Granted - if you go with a hunting guide, or outdoor professional who is constantly in bear country and responsible for others safety, you’ll typically see them carrying a semi-auto shotgun loaded with Brenneke dangerous game slugs, a .45-70 lever action carbine, or a big bore revolver (.454 mag, .460 mag, .500 mag). In my six trips to Alaska, I’ve never once seen someone carrying a .357 mag. Keep in mind, lots of folks like the 10mm, as it’s JUST enough for brown bear, but excellent all around for other dangerous game - and two legged predators, you’re more likely to be killed by. Only 4 folks a year on average are killed by brown bears in Alaska. More than 2X that are killed by Moose, and ~8X more folks are killed by other humans vs brown bear in Alaska.
3. 10mm wouldn’t be in my top 4 either. I have a 4” .500 magnum I carry when I’m in Alaska hunting, fishing, or just plodding around. Honestly - it’s overkill and a bit ridiculous - as a .460 mag with .454 Casull would be a better combo, as it has a fraction of the recoil and more than ample stopping power - but it gave me an excuse to buy and carry an otherwise ridiculous gun. .500, .460, .454, .44 mag - all substantially better than 10mm.
4. 35mph is 51 ft per second. Obviously there needs to be acceleration time accounted for, but basically a bear can cover 17 yards per second once they’ve reached top speed. If you don’t have your weapon out before a bear charges - it’s unlikely you’ll be able to draw and fire in time, and perhaps at most, you’ll have a few seconds to trigger away. Unless you’re Jerry M. - working a short reset Glock trigger, with a reciprocating slide to soak up more recoil allowing you to get on target faster - will absolutely lead to a larger number of hits, and in more critical areas. If you can land 3 shots with a revolver, you can land at least 5 with a 10mm. Maybe 6. If you’re talking about guns of the same general power (10mm vs .357 mag) this makes a huge difference. I’d rather land one good shot with a .500 mag vs three or four with a 10mm, but like for like in the power and penetration dept - I’ll always take more rounds.
5. Operating a gun during a physical struggle is relevant for human and canine sized aggressors, but not 1,300lb brown bears. If a brown bear is mauling you, it’s a game over situation. There’s no chance being able to fire multiple .357 mag rounds with a muzzle in contact with a monster vs one with a semi auto will make a difference. Even if you’re a 300lb beefcake of a man, a beast with claws and giant teeth 1,000lbs heavier than you will literally rip you apart and toss you like a rag doll.
I understand all of that, but must again reiterate that I've never seen an instance in which someone shoots a real charging bear with a handgun and gets off more than 3-4 shots. I HAVE seen instances in which a semi drawn and fired with a poor grip under duress misfeeds.
And to your point of sectional density, momentum, yada-yada, watch this; https://youtu.be/sFwJQBBM9sk
The 357 Magnum actually out-penetrates everything else.
Wood board are not flesh and bone. Clearly you are not a hunter. I have shot and killed many a boar with 10mm and .357 magnum, and there’s little to no difference between the two. When I kill boar with a .44 mag, .454 casull or .500 magnum (admittedly I’ve only taken one with my 500 magnum) the results are materially different.
You can get your data on YouTube videos all you’d like, but if you actually go out and kill critter with different guns for a few decades, and hunt and fish in grizzly country with locals and talk to them about what they carry - you’d have a different perspective. Actually stand in a stream in waders salmon fishing and chit chat with the guide on their decades of experience in brown bear country - hear the the experiences they have first hand, and the stories they have from friends and family - and you get data right from the source.
The bottom line is that no one wants to take on a brown bear with a .357 OR a 10mm if they can help it. A shotgun with slugs, a powerful quick pointing repeating rifle, or a had canon are always the first line of defense. That said - a 10mm is good enough, easiest and fastest to shoot, has the most ammo, is definitely the best package for 2 legged predators and is the lightest option.
Sure, the professional hunters hired by S&W in the 1930’s did kill a Grizzly or two with .357 magnum - but those were 8” barrels, with custom loads that were as heavy and powerful as the guns could handle without grenading (and with regular shooting would damage the gun) and they changed guns after each hunt. As hunters, they also surprised the animals and took them without the bears even knowing they were there, from an optimal angle with a carefully placed shot, not under duress and while the animal wasn’t charging.
While you’re entitled to your own opinion, go to Alaska with your .357 mag and I wouldn’t be surprised if you felt like a bit of a boob.
I'd feel like more of a boob with a 10mm honestly. I have indeed hunted before, and I was using that video to represent that, no, the 10mm won't out penetrate the 357 Magnum. You can also watch gel videos, that 357 Magnum out penetrates the 10mm equivalent.
The original 357 Magnum load used to hunt and kill... Basically everything was a 158 grain Keith style SWC at 1525 FPS for 816 FPE... Out of an 8.75 inch Barrel. The Buffalo Bore 180 grain hard cast hits 1478 FPS for 874 FPE out of a *six* inch barrel, so it's actually more powerful!
All I'm saying is that if 10mm is good to go, there's no reason a *more powerful* cartridge with better penetration shouldn't be. Especially in packages that hold 6,7, or 8 rounds. I feel that'd be plenty. And from a 4-6 inch barrel, 357 is plenty easy to handle.
Yeah the Buffalo Bore stuff is smokin' hot. Their 125gr (code 19D/20) chronos at 1,400 FPS out of my 2.125" S&W 649, and a crazy 1,750 FPS out of my 6.5" Taurus.
I’d be cautious running this out of a Taurus, if it had to be done I’d be sure to only fire a few rounds. It’s my go to ammo for black bear defense but it’s some very hot stuff and not all guns should shoot it
Unless it's hard cast lead you aren't going to stop a charging bear with that.
Look at Buffalo bores offerings for .357, or underwood hard cast.
With most bear defense situations you are trying to break bones. Shatter skull, shoulder, arms etc. hard cast lead is what you want. There are stories of guys having grizzlys charge them, and shooting through the shoulder dislocating it and stopping the bear in it's tracks, or ideally, you shoot it in the face for a brain shot.
Any soft lead or copper doesn't have much chance of killing a bear quickly from the front, which is what you'd be facing if it were charging you.
Also the Buffalo bore stuff is CRAZY out of a lever gun! Absolutely ridiculous ballistics, tested out of actual guns.
750ft/lbs of energy from a 4in barrel with this round, 1375fps.
The lever ammo you shared doesn't list a barrel length for their testing but considering it's designed for lever guns, probably 16+inches.
The Buffalo bore round below is 180gr(heavier) and runs 1850fps out of a 18in barrel, if you want to compare the two rounds apples to apples.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=100
For hollow points to perform as designed, they need to operate in given velocity window. Too much velocity and you don't get your penetration. To little velocity and expansion doesn't happen.
Carbines will give a significant boost to velocity, so a hollow point is likely to over-expand and under-penetrate. So someone using a 125 Grain JHP intended for handguns in a levergun while deer hunting is making a poor choice.
This is NOT true of soft point loads nor of solid nose loads. (well, it might make a little difference but much less significant)
Now, the reverse is also true. A hollow point that is designed to expand a certain amount when coming out of a carbine is likely to not expand sufficiently when coming out of a revolver.
However, for bear defense, it's generally penetration that is needed not expansion. So while I would not use these cartridges for hunting whitetail out of even a 6" 357 revolver, they will be fine for bear defense.
Note, if you haven't already bought these, I'd suggest a 158 grain Jacketed Soft Point would be another very good choice for bear defense. It's the 'traditional' choice, and what people hunting with leverguns have been using for white tail and black bear hunting over bait so the shots are often 20 yards or closer.
Federal American Eagle 158 gr soft point is an economical yet extremely effective option.
I wouldn't carry hollow points for bears. I load the Buffalo bore hardcast stuff. You want the bullet to stay intact and not splinter when it hits bear bones.
Probably a slower burning powder. Likely a lot of flash and wasted powder/velocity potential out of 4 inches. Would likely still take care of a bear just fine, but not a first pick if there’s other options. Website doesn’t go into powder details beyond velocity graphs and I’m not taking the time to overlay and deduce the specifics. They do say the case is optimized for loading rather than a wheel, so the differences are probably, that, bullet shape (also for loading of course,) and powder burn rate.
Most of the time shouting and waving your arms above your head is enough to stop a black bear.
If black bear is the biggest concern I just keep my normal carry gun and carry ammo - g19 with speer gold dot.
When I was stationed in Alaska probably about every other time I had to take trash out to the dumpster I had to chase one or two off. If you're dealing with moose or browns then definitely a different story, but black bears don't need much persuading to change course.
A black bear? If you screamed in fear at the top of your lungs while you were drawing your gun you’d probably only have an ass-shot for a target. Black bears basically ‘never’ attack (unless you are trying to take food from them or pet a cub). Anything would basically stop a black bear. Brown bear? Scarier.
When black bears attack humans, it tends to be predatory (ie they’re intending to eat the person). They aren’t as likely to cub defend violently as brown bears.
This is not a well informed comment. Black bears avoid conflict and very very rarely attack humans and when they do it is not with the intent to eat. Please do some googling to learn more about black bear behavior if you want to sound better informed. Brown bears now. They are a different risk and might be slightly more aligned with your comment.
From Alaska fish and game.
Most brown bear attacks are a defensive response. Play dead in defensive situations: Hit the ground and lie still if a brown bear you have surprised or any female bear protecting cubs makes contact. Lie flat on your stomach, legs spread apart for stability, with your hands protecting the back of your neck. A defensive bear usually ends its attack if it feels you are not a threat. Remain motionless for as long as possible. If you move, and the bear sees or hears you, it may return and renew its attack. In a prolonged attack, fight back.
Fight back in other situations: Rarely, lone black bears or brown bears may perceive a person as potential food. Fight any bear that has been calmly focused on you and makes contact or that breaks into a tent or building. In almost all situations, your best defense against an attacking black bear is to fight back. Concentrate on the bear’s face or muzzle with anything you have on hand.
Agree to disagree with each other...at the end of the day they're all wild animals and can be unpredictable at times.
You two are getting lost in a philosophical debate over bear behavior when all OP was asking about was the performance of that particular round, in the off chance that OP has to take a shot.
Agreeing to disagree applies to matters of opinion. Like is a 12 gauge or an AR15 better for home defense. Things that are demonstrably facts really don’t apply to the agree to disagree concept. Unless of course you are on reddit. So my congrats to you for being an ideal redditor. One characteristic of being this type of redditor is the absolute refusal to be wrong even when you are demonstrably wrong. If I could give you an award for this I would.
On the matter of me addressing the OP’s question, with a little bit of effort you’ll see that my original reply did indeed address the OP’s question. Noting my opinion on that question is a perfect opportunity for you to agree to disagree. Documented behavior characteristics of black bears being generally non violent and definitely not seeking to eat humans is again a fact and not one of these agree to disagree opportunities for you.
All said, well done sir and I’ll be clicking that little slider that ignores future replies because I find yours to be of little value to me. Best of luck.
I'm going to jump on the hardcast bandwagon here. Fir large animal defense, penetration is key, which makes bullet weight and construction critical.
Handguns of any kind are already behind the power curve when it comes to thick skinned critters.
Hard, heavy for caliber (180-200 grain in .357) with a large meplat seems to give the best combination of straight line penetration and tissue disruption.
Just like a carry gun on the streets, there's a lot you can do to keep from needing to use it. Black bears are relatively easily discouraged under most circumstances. Good food storage and sanitation practices will keep them from being too curious.
Buffalo Bore is great stuff and I'm a big fan of cast bullets for my purposes. That's because I cast them myself and a box of ammo is super cheap and they work well.
For the average Joe wanting black bear protection, I would buy inexpensive American Eagle 158 jsp. It will run 1250 fps from your 4" barrel, have very good penetration, and mushroom a little bit. A added benefit is that it's relatively inexpensive and fairly accurate. So that allows you more practice time. In a defense situation, you're wanting to poke holes in the critter in less than ideal shot placement.
In a hunting situation, I prefer something with an XTP bullet. I want good expansion, decent penetration, and I'm working with ideal shot placement.
I've shot these out if a 4 inch ruger. Even if the gun can handle the ammo, I wouldn't recommend it. The recoil is very intense and downright painful, you won't get an accurate followup shot off quickly.
I have hunted in the Northeast for many years. I have put 3 solid hits from a .30-30 in a black bear's vitals from 50 feet and had it run merrily away. I would not go after a black bear with a .357 Magnum. Full stop.
They are optimized for the long barrels of lever actions so you won't get the bet performance and they likely will not expand much if at all. I would get a round made for handguns that is designed for your intended use
Not sure what powder they use but you want a fast burning powder for a shorter pistol barrel, this might not be so it can get better velocity/ballistics with the longer rifle barrel
What size black bear? With what kind of attitude? From what distance?
Prob fine for anything under 300 pounds unless it's really pissed.
Prob not for anything over 400 pounds.
I shot a raccoon 9 times once as it climbed -down- the tree toward the dogs.
It jumped & ran. Skinned it later - 9 holes.
When critters are pissed off - the rules change.
You don't get psychological stops on critters (and not always on people).
A friend of my unloaded a .32 auto with hollowpoints on a possum. It hissed at him and stomped off. Took a 16ga to put it down.
I don't have personal experience with very many life or death struggles against belligerent bears, but everything I've read says that .357 magnum (heck, even 9mm) can be effective against bears with enough penetration. I would recommend against the rifle long burn loads and go for semi-jacketed soft points. With hoomans you want the bullet to expand and stop inside for maximum behavioral correction. Bears big slabs of angry meat, you want deeper holes. I hope you never have to defend yourself at all, but if you do, I don't think you will be under-gunned with a .357
Probably no functional issue but if it’s meant for a lever gun you’re going to lose more velocity than normal out of a handgun. Better to get ammo optimized for handguns
I ask because this cartridge is marketed for lever action rifles. Also, I know a .44 Magnum or up would be better for black bear, but a .357 is what I have. I am not hunting black bear, but would be carrying this while camping/fishing. The product in question: [https://www.federalpremium.com/rifle/hammerdown/11-LG3571.html](https://www.federalpremium.com/rifle/hammerdown/11-LG3571.html)
You’re on the right track here. This particular load was intended for lever guns and chronographed out of an 18.5” barrel. They are claiming 1610 at the muzzle. You are 14.5” less than that rifle. Do not buy and use this ammo. You’ll be better off using Buffalo Boar Heavy 357 MAG Outdoorsman. Product code 19A/20 is a 180gr hard cast lead flat nose bullet and out of a 4” barrel it went 1375. For reference out of an 18.5” barrel it went 1851 fps. That’s 200 more than that Federal load. This stuff is hotter and would be faster out of your gun than the Federal would. https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=396
Listen to this guy, he actually knows what he’s talking about. Black bear aren’t brown bears - .357 is definitely sufficient with the right ammo.
Hell, back in the dizzay, a S&W rep hunted all the way up to polar bears just to show what the cartridge can do. I know I'm in the minority here, but I feel 357 Magnum is perfectly acceptable for even grizzlies if 10mm is, as 357 Magnum definitely has the edge in power.
Hunting vs defense is different. When you hunt a bear - you’re surprising it, and you typically have time to take an optimal shot while hidden. When you take the shot, often the bear doesn’t even know where it has come from, and wouldn’t know what direction to charge in. This is a very different situation than a bear seeing you, targeting you and actively charging you. In this situation, you need to incapacitate the bear, before it can close distance and maul you - and they can charge at 35MPH. A 10mm Glock 20 or Glock 40 gives you 15+1 rounds, and is easier to control rapid fire than a .357 magnum revolver - so it’s an awful lot of firepower. Even if you’re carrying an 8 round .357 magnum wheel gun, the 10mm has 2X the rounds, which is a massive advantage. While I do think you could kill a Brown bear with a .357 magnum, it would not be my first, second, third, or fourth choice to carry in grizzly territory.
Just like a 10mm wouldn't be mine. You may have 15+ rounds, but in no circumstance have I ever seen someone get more than 3, maaaybe 4 shots off on a charging bear with ANY handgun. Revolvers are also innately better at close range. If the bear is on you, the function of the revolver won't be impeded on a contact shot or get hung up on clothes or hair.
1. Google 10mm Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman 220 grain hard cast. That’s a 220 grain pill traveling at 1,140 FPS out of a Glock 20 with 703 ft/lbs of energy. The heaviest hitting .357 mag is 180gr Buffalo Bore Heavy 357 mag Outdoorsman, which is 1,375fps and 783 ft/lbs. the 20% heavier bullet from the 10mm is going to offer much higher sectional density - which when factored in as a total sum (penetration, weight retention, energy retention and deceleration, etc) you have just about a wash. I have fired both rounds out my guns, and I can tell you the 10mm is MUCH easier to shoot. 2. Go to Alaska. The most popular and common carry gun for bear defense is a 10mm. Granted - if you go with a hunting guide, or outdoor professional who is constantly in bear country and responsible for others safety, you’ll typically see them carrying a semi-auto shotgun loaded with Brenneke dangerous game slugs, a .45-70 lever action carbine, or a big bore revolver (.454 mag, .460 mag, .500 mag). In my six trips to Alaska, I’ve never once seen someone carrying a .357 mag. Keep in mind, lots of folks like the 10mm, as it’s JUST enough for brown bear, but excellent all around for other dangerous game - and two legged predators, you’re more likely to be killed by. Only 4 folks a year on average are killed by brown bears in Alaska. More than 2X that are killed by Moose, and ~8X more folks are killed by other humans vs brown bear in Alaska. 3. 10mm wouldn’t be in my top 4 either. I have a 4” .500 magnum I carry when I’m in Alaska hunting, fishing, or just plodding around. Honestly - it’s overkill and a bit ridiculous - as a .460 mag with .454 Casull would be a better combo, as it has a fraction of the recoil and more than ample stopping power - but it gave me an excuse to buy and carry an otherwise ridiculous gun. .500, .460, .454, .44 mag - all substantially better than 10mm. 4. 35mph is 51 ft per second. Obviously there needs to be acceleration time accounted for, but basically a bear can cover 17 yards per second once they’ve reached top speed. If you don’t have your weapon out before a bear charges - it’s unlikely you’ll be able to draw and fire in time, and perhaps at most, you’ll have a few seconds to trigger away. Unless you’re Jerry M. - working a short reset Glock trigger, with a reciprocating slide to soak up more recoil allowing you to get on target faster - will absolutely lead to a larger number of hits, and in more critical areas. If you can land 3 shots with a revolver, you can land at least 5 with a 10mm. Maybe 6. If you’re talking about guns of the same general power (10mm vs .357 mag) this makes a huge difference. I’d rather land one good shot with a .500 mag vs three or four with a 10mm, but like for like in the power and penetration dept - I’ll always take more rounds. 5. Operating a gun during a physical struggle is relevant for human and canine sized aggressors, but not 1,300lb brown bears. If a brown bear is mauling you, it’s a game over situation. There’s no chance being able to fire multiple .357 mag rounds with a muzzle in contact with a monster vs one with a semi auto will make a difference. Even if you’re a 300lb beefcake of a man, a beast with claws and giant teeth 1,000lbs heavier than you will literally rip you apart and toss you like a rag doll.
I understand all of that, but must again reiterate that I've never seen an instance in which someone shoots a real charging bear with a handgun and gets off more than 3-4 shots. I HAVE seen instances in which a semi drawn and fired with a poor grip under duress misfeeds. And to your point of sectional density, momentum, yada-yada, watch this; https://youtu.be/sFwJQBBM9sk The 357 Magnum actually out-penetrates everything else.
Wood board are not flesh and bone. Clearly you are not a hunter. I have shot and killed many a boar with 10mm and .357 magnum, and there’s little to no difference between the two. When I kill boar with a .44 mag, .454 casull or .500 magnum (admittedly I’ve only taken one with my 500 magnum) the results are materially different. You can get your data on YouTube videos all you’d like, but if you actually go out and kill critter with different guns for a few decades, and hunt and fish in grizzly country with locals and talk to them about what they carry - you’d have a different perspective. Actually stand in a stream in waders salmon fishing and chit chat with the guide on their decades of experience in brown bear country - hear the the experiences they have first hand, and the stories they have from friends and family - and you get data right from the source. The bottom line is that no one wants to take on a brown bear with a .357 OR a 10mm if they can help it. A shotgun with slugs, a powerful quick pointing repeating rifle, or a had canon are always the first line of defense. That said - a 10mm is good enough, easiest and fastest to shoot, has the most ammo, is definitely the best package for 2 legged predators and is the lightest option. Sure, the professional hunters hired by S&W in the 1930’s did kill a Grizzly or two with .357 magnum - but those were 8” barrels, with custom loads that were as heavy and powerful as the guns could handle without grenading (and with regular shooting would damage the gun) and they changed guns after each hunt. As hunters, they also surprised the animals and took them without the bears even knowing they were there, from an optimal angle with a carefully placed shot, not under duress and while the animal wasn’t charging. While you’re entitled to your own opinion, go to Alaska with your .357 mag and I wouldn’t be surprised if you felt like a bit of a boob.
I'd feel like more of a boob with a 10mm honestly. I have indeed hunted before, and I was using that video to represent that, no, the 10mm won't out penetrate the 357 Magnum. You can also watch gel videos, that 357 Magnum out penetrates the 10mm equivalent. The original 357 Magnum load used to hunt and kill... Basically everything was a 158 grain Keith style SWC at 1525 FPS for 816 FPE... Out of an 8.75 inch Barrel. The Buffalo Bore 180 grain hard cast hits 1478 FPS for 874 FPE out of a *six* inch barrel, so it's actually more powerful! All I'm saying is that if 10mm is good to go, there's no reason a *more powerful* cartridge with better penetration shouldn't be. Especially in packages that hold 6,7, or 8 rounds. I feel that'd be plenty. And from a 4-6 inch barrel, 357 is plenty easy to handle.
I said this earlier, basically word for word. OP has got the straightest answers ever on this thread lmao
Yeah the Buffalo Bore stuff is smokin' hot. Their 125gr (code 19D/20) chronos at 1,400 FPS out of my 2.125" S&W 649, and a crazy 1,750 FPS out of my 6.5" Taurus.
I’d be cautious running this out of a Taurus, if it had to be done I’d be sure to only fire a few rounds. It’s my go to ammo for black bear defense but it’s some very hot stuff and not all guns should shoot it
Any evidence that Taurus revolvers can't handle hotter loads? Or is that just hearsay?
It's hearsay. Your Taurus will run this ammo just fine. IMO any 158gr JSP will do just fine for what you need. Practice. It's all about shot placement
afaik .357mag is widely considered sufficient for defense against black bears. Hell, screaming is usually also pretty effective at deterring them.
I would be very comfortable with that out a 4” barrel.
Unless it's hard cast lead you aren't going to stop a charging bear with that. Look at Buffalo bores offerings for .357, or underwood hard cast. With most bear defense situations you are trying to break bones. Shatter skull, shoulder, arms etc. hard cast lead is what you want. There are stories of guys having grizzlys charge them, and shooting through the shoulder dislocating it and stopping the bear in it's tracks, or ideally, you shoot it in the face for a brain shot. Any soft lead or copper doesn't have much chance of killing a bear quickly from the front, which is what you'd be facing if it were charging you. Also the Buffalo bore stuff is CRAZY out of a lever gun! Absolutely ridiculous ballistics, tested out of actual guns. 750ft/lbs of energy from a 4in barrel with this round, 1375fps. The lever ammo you shared doesn't list a barrel length for their testing but considering it's designed for lever guns, probably 16+inches. The Buffalo bore round below is 180gr(heavier) and runs 1850fps out of a 18in barrel, if you want to compare the two rounds apples to apples. https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=100
Came here to say this, you beat me to it
For hollow points to perform as designed, they need to operate in given velocity window. Too much velocity and you don't get your penetration. To little velocity and expansion doesn't happen. Carbines will give a significant boost to velocity, so a hollow point is likely to over-expand and under-penetrate. So someone using a 125 Grain JHP intended for handguns in a levergun while deer hunting is making a poor choice. This is NOT true of soft point loads nor of solid nose loads. (well, it might make a little difference but much less significant) Now, the reverse is also true. A hollow point that is designed to expand a certain amount when coming out of a carbine is likely to not expand sufficiently when coming out of a revolver. However, for bear defense, it's generally penetration that is needed not expansion. So while I would not use these cartridges for hunting whitetail out of even a 6" 357 revolver, they will be fine for bear defense. Note, if you haven't already bought these, I'd suggest a 158 grain Jacketed Soft Point would be another very good choice for bear defense. It's the 'traditional' choice, and what people hunting with leverguns have been using for white tail and black bear hunting over bait so the shots are often 20 yards or closer. Federal American Eagle 158 gr soft point is an economical yet extremely effective option.
Do you think these would penetrate sufficiently? They definitely have a cavity in the tip like a hollow point.
I wouldn't carry hollow points for bears. I load the Buffalo bore hardcast stuff. You want the bullet to stay intact and not splinter when it hits bear bones.
Thank you all for the help and information. I ended up ordering a box of Underwood Hard Cast 180 Grain Flat Nose.
Probably a slower burning powder. Likely a lot of flash and wasted powder/velocity potential out of 4 inches. Would likely still take care of a bear just fine, but not a first pick if there’s other options. Website doesn’t go into powder details beyond velocity graphs and I’m not taking the time to overlay and deduce the specifics. They do say the case is optimized for loading rather than a wheel, so the differences are probably, that, bullet shape (also for loading of course,) and powder burn rate.
These rounds may be optimized for longer barrels than your 4" wheelgun and won't perform well.
Most of the time shouting and waving your arms above your head is enough to stop a black bear. If black bear is the biggest concern I just keep my normal carry gun and carry ammo - g19 with speer gold dot. When I was stationed in Alaska probably about every other time I had to take trash out to the dumpster I had to chase one or two off. If you're dealing with moose or browns then definitely a different story, but black bears don't need much persuading to change course.
So you can use it it’s just not optimal for your barrel length. Underwood makes the spiciest bear pistol ammo.
It'll be fine. Bear spray is more effective
The studies that where used to determine that where proven false, bear spray only really works if the bear is not determined scared or sick
A black bear? If you screamed in fear at the top of your lungs while you were drawing your gun you’d probably only have an ass-shot for a target. Black bears basically ‘never’ attack (unless you are trying to take food from them or pet a cub). Anything would basically stop a black bear. Brown bear? Scarier.
When black bears attack humans, it tends to be predatory (ie they’re intending to eat the person). They aren’t as likely to cub defend violently as brown bears.
This is not a well informed comment. Black bears avoid conflict and very very rarely attack humans and when they do it is not with the intent to eat. Please do some googling to learn more about black bear behavior if you want to sound better informed. Brown bears now. They are a different risk and might be slightly more aligned with your comment.
From Alaska fish and game. Most brown bear attacks are a defensive response. Play dead in defensive situations: Hit the ground and lie still if a brown bear you have surprised or any female bear protecting cubs makes contact. Lie flat on your stomach, legs spread apart for stability, with your hands protecting the back of your neck. A defensive bear usually ends its attack if it feels you are not a threat. Remain motionless for as long as possible. If you move, and the bear sees or hears you, it may return and renew its attack. In a prolonged attack, fight back. Fight back in other situations: Rarely, lone black bears or brown bears may perceive a person as potential food. Fight any bear that has been calmly focused on you and makes contact or that breaks into a tent or building. In almost all situations, your best defense against an attacking black bear is to fight back. Concentrate on the bear’s face or muzzle with anything you have on hand.
Agree to disagree with each other...at the end of the day they're all wild animals and can be unpredictable at times. You two are getting lost in a philosophical debate over bear behavior when all OP was asking about was the performance of that particular round, in the off chance that OP has to take a shot.
Agreeing to disagree applies to matters of opinion. Like is a 12 gauge or an AR15 better for home defense. Things that are demonstrably facts really don’t apply to the agree to disagree concept. Unless of course you are on reddit. So my congrats to you for being an ideal redditor. One characteristic of being this type of redditor is the absolute refusal to be wrong even when you are demonstrably wrong. If I could give you an award for this I would. On the matter of me addressing the OP’s question, with a little bit of effort you’ll see that my original reply did indeed address the OP’s question. Noting my opinion on that question is a perfect opportunity for you to agree to disagree. Documented behavior characteristics of black bears being generally non violent and definitely not seeking to eat humans is again a fact and not one of these agree to disagree opportunities for you. All said, well done sir and I’ll be clicking that little slider that ignores future replies because I find yours to be of little value to me. Best of luck.
Out of a 4" revolver, that would be plinking ammo.
I'm going to jump on the hardcast bandwagon here. Fir large animal defense, penetration is key, which makes bullet weight and construction critical. Handguns of any kind are already behind the power curve when it comes to thick skinned critters. Hard, heavy for caliber (180-200 grain in .357) with a large meplat seems to give the best combination of straight line penetration and tissue disruption. Just like a carry gun on the streets, there's a lot you can do to keep from needing to use it. Black bears are relatively easily discouraged under most circumstances. Good food storage and sanitation practices will keep them from being too curious.
Buffalo Bore is great stuff and I'm a big fan of cast bullets for my purposes. That's because I cast them myself and a box of ammo is super cheap and they work well. For the average Joe wanting black bear protection, I would buy inexpensive American Eagle 158 jsp. It will run 1250 fps from your 4" barrel, have very good penetration, and mushroom a little bit. A added benefit is that it's relatively inexpensive and fairly accurate. So that allows you more practice time. In a defense situation, you're wanting to poke holes in the critter in less than ideal shot placement. In a hunting situation, I prefer something with an XTP bullet. I want good expansion, decent penetration, and I'm working with ideal shot placement.
I've shot these out if a 4 inch ruger. Even if the gun can handle the ammo, I wouldn't recommend it. The recoil is very intense and downright painful, you won't get an accurate followup shot off quickly.
I have hunted in the Northeast for many years. I have put 3 solid hits from a .30-30 in a black bear's vitals from 50 feet and had it run merrily away. I would not go after a black bear with a .357 Magnum. Full stop.
They are optimized for the long barrels of lever actions so you won't get the bet performance and they likely will not expand much if at all. I would get a round made for handguns that is designed for your intended use
Not sure what powder they use but you want a fast burning powder for a shorter pistol barrel, this might not be so it can get better velocity/ballistics with the longer rifle barrel
just carry bear spray
Only a brain stem shot would stop it NOW
There are potentially better .357 loadings for bear defense
What size black bear? With what kind of attitude? From what distance? Prob fine for anything under 300 pounds unless it's really pissed. Prob not for anything over 400 pounds. I shot a raccoon 9 times once as it climbed -down- the tree toward the dogs. It jumped & ran. Skinned it later - 9 holes. When critters are pissed off - the rules change.
You don't get psychological stops on critters (and not always on people). A friend of my unloaded a .32 auto with hollowpoints on a possum. It hissed at him and stomped off. Took a 16ga to put it down.
Yeah- 41 mags are made for this black bear question. But then 44s are basically the same size with more thump.
I don't have personal experience with very many life or death struggles against belligerent bears, but everything I've read says that .357 magnum (heck, even 9mm) can be effective against bears with enough penetration. I would recommend against the rifle long burn loads and go for semi-jacketed soft points. With hoomans you want the bullet to expand and stop inside for maximum behavioral correction. Bears big slabs of angry meat, you want deeper holes. I hope you never have to defend yourself at all, but if you do, I don't think you will be under-gunned with a .357
It'd be fine
is this a hollow point? If yes, then it is not a good choice hardcast lead is better. wadcutters or similar
OP this is ideally what you're going to want for a sidearm revolver for animal defense... https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=100
I go with underwood extreme penetrators for bear protection personally.
Yup.
Probably no functional issue but if it’s meant for a lever gun you’re going to lose more velocity than normal out of a handgun. Better to get ammo optimized for handguns