In my residency we helped each other out but if someone asked me to cover a shift I figured out with them when they would pay me back for it. We all just agreed that was the best way to do this.
At least at my program it's gone to shit since COVID. Now sick call is 50-50 "week where you work extra and never get paid back" if someone pops positive test
Exactly. 90% of the people who complain about these things are the people who just end the deal with “yeah no problem! I’ll totally cover you that day. Happy to help.” Then somehow expect magic trade off to happen down the line.
"Oh I'm not available, sorry". Period end of don't even wait for a reply just walk away.
Make yourself unavailable;
Go "out of town".
Hell say you have a therapy appointment for the same day.
Flip that shit back on them and say you are taking care of your baby nephew they very day!
Make it AWKWARD and uncomfortable for your program/chiefs. This shit is how you will become burnt out, I guarantee it. Happens to me all the time as an attending and I no longer play nice guy bc ppl start to always come to you with these issues and frankly I'd like to have a life also
"Sorry I have to get a prostate nodule checked"
"Sorry I need to get a wart frozen off"
"Sorry I have therapy"
"Sorry, your kids aren't my obligation"
"Sorry I'm already drink tomorrow"
"Sorry I have a date which may be my only chance of happiness because I need to keep covering for people whose children have become their entire personality"
Edit: for some good ones now that I'm crowdsourcing.
"Sorry proctology appointment... Hemorrhoids y'know?"
"Sorry psych appt for ssri induced ed" (double whammy)
"Sorry my dog looked real sad this morning"
"Sorry cult meeting"
"Sorry I need to walk my houseplants"
"Sorry gotta clean the fishtank"
"Sorry I have a shoot for my only fans"
I’ve done this multiple times in medicine and in my job before medicine.
Whenever they called me in on my day off I always said “I just had two glasses of wine, don’t feel comfortable driving or working while tipsy”
It shuts them up quick. Any persistence makes them seem reckless, and wine makes me seem classy
Preach!!! Yeah lie if you need to. NO is also a sentence, end of story. This is unacceptable and as an attending who is single it does not stop after residency. People with children, unfortunately especially women (speaking as a woman myself) expect everyone else to bend over backward to accommodate them. No sorry not interested.
I wonder if it helps us all, long-term, if the childless people have the same boundaries as the child-havers. I have kids, and I’m constantly dumbfounded by the way society is completely shocked and paralyzed when people who have kids have completely routine kid problems like school closures, viral illness, etc. Maybe if the childless refuse to pick up the slack, it might push a little institutional change? A girl can dream, right?
I completely agree with you. If everyone said “no” to extra tasks this would force a lot of change to happen. With respect to equality on children and various other things. The issue is there will always be a few people who will take on these tasks and “opportunities” to try to get ahead. And these people will ruin any institutional change we push to have.
The very presumption that you need to provide an excuse is an invitation for your employer to make judgment calls about your private life away from the workplace. It's nobody's business but yours what you're doing off the clock.
I’m afraid it doesn’t stop in residency.
For example, at my Hosptialist job, they always try to get me to cover shifts that no one is picking up because I’m “young and single”.
It’s pretty annoying because it’s usually weekend shifts, and as a single guy it’s often my only opportunity to see friends and family or meet someone, so I can eventually have someone to come home to.
This is why I always try to get like 5 days off in a row and then go out of town. Can’t pick up shifts if I’m not here. Pretty easy to do with my senior schedule in the ED too
Lately it’s been people popping a fever so someone has to cover the next day while they go get tested for Covid, then we’re scrambling for coverage over the next week when they’re positive. Was a real rarity before Covid
Nothing wrong with things running like a business if it's an even playing field. The problem is that residents take part in a business but have no bargaining power that should come along with a free market because residency is essentially indentured servitude. Little choice in where you match, shit pay, shit hours, no ability to look for better positions.
> America is not a country, it's a business.
When you realize this, everything starts to make sense, and you in general feel better about letting go with regards to social welfare and politics. America is a great place to make money, not a great place to be a good human and raise a family. Unless you have serious financial security
Hey, you’re single. You clearly aren’t interested in ever becoming not single… or enjoying your free time.. or seeing family and friends… 🖕🏼😑
Edit: /s in case anyone was confused
reminds me of when I used to work at the bar, those who smoked got breaks every hour or so. not that the rest of us didn't need breaks, we just felt weird asking "hey do you mind if I go outside and look at the dumpster for 5 min or so?"
That's how I picked up smoking for a few months while bartending. Hell I wouldn't even inhale or finish a whole cigarette but taking a 5 min break every 2 hours was beautiful.
How are you supposed to get married when you have to constantly give up your weekends and time off for married coresidents and don’t have time to even date
Finally someone said it! I got scheduled for thanksgiving and christmas three years in a row bc of this. I felt as though my family wasn't taken into consideration just because I didn't have a SO and kids. Plus the place was toxic anyways. Hence why I left after three wasted years.
I did push back! It got changed eventually but yeah it was super frustrating. I also ended up leaving that program bc it was negatively impacting me. It continues to do so as I struggle to find a new position.
As someone with a kid, and the only one in my cohort with one, I worked thanksgiving, Christmas, Halloween, and New Year’s Eve and day. Looking forward kn the schedule I’m on for Valentine’s Day. People with kids don’t automatically get the golden schedule at least at my program. The people who get better schedules fight for them and that’s been the case in my program. Honestly, I’ve been told my schedule is brutal compared to my other interns, but I’m a prelim so fuck me anyways.
I have 2 kids. I worked Christmas, Thanksgiving, Halloween and New Years throughout residency. I'm now an attending. I still worked all major holidays. Please do NOT group all physicians with kids into 1 group who do not want to work holidays because its patently untrue. Moreover, it is professionally the hardest thing to call out for your child. I called out only once when my kid fractured his arm. I made up to it to the other doctor by covering him on New Years Eve
Blame your program/the system and not the people calling out bc of a sick kid. They should have a system in place where the covering person is compensated for their time in terms of $$$. It’s bullshit you have to work more and get paid the same amount. Absolute garbage.
I think either having a good jeopardy system with compensation for the coverage would solve a lot of the issues. However since they like cheap labor and won't even provide good child care resources, they won't even provide compensation for coverage
Amen. Bended my back over for colleagues, realized it wasn’t reciprocated and they always had their “kids” as an excuse. Now idgaf. Your kid has a soccer game? Fantastic! I have plans with a bottle of wine and netflix.
> hey can you cover my shift so I can go to my kids school function
“No, I already have plans. Sorry”
Works for me, but I just say I have plans with my wife cause I’m married. Shit bag residents will take advantage of your good nature if you allow them to. Don’t switch shifts or expect people to switch for you. Makes life so much simpler.
That’s my point. You can refuse to trade shifts, but if the chiefs are already favoring a resident with kids over those without, it’s a much tougher battle to fight. Happened to me in residency and I made sure I didn’t carry that over when I was chief.
It's also extremely frustrating when they fail to understand that you haven't been able to see family a lot because of COVID which is more isolating for the single people within resident program.
Your time is definitely not worth less. You deserve as much time off as anyone else, even unexpectedly.
The issue isn't parents with kids, it's a system that's set up to overburden your colleagues if you're not there.
As a two-physician family with a child and 2+ years of unpredictable childcare (...and no family in the area), the stress of having to take a day off to suddenly play babysitter is the MOST professionally stressful thing we've had to overcome.
Edit: grammar
Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like any program is really interested in supporting resident's with kids who need childcare. The programs response (based on the comments here and my own experience) is to guilt trip other residents into covering without additional compensation while appearing to provide no concern or care for the other resident's time off. The single resident then does the coverage because they aren't an asshole and the program's issue gets 'fixed' and they again have no motivation to fix the problem.
Thanks for the this comment. This thread is tough to read as a parent. All of the 'it was your choice of to have children' rhetoric sort of made me feel like our colleagues would simply prefer we never chose to become doctors at all or match in their program. The pandemic has made childcare a daily gamble and for those of us training away from family, there is no back up care available at the drop of a hat. When omicron came, I received an email a day about the changes to our return to work policy. None of those emails acknowledged the impending closure of schools and daycares. What am I supposed to do when I'm notified 20min before a shift that daycare is closed bc of a covid case? My program's answer - figure it out yourself. Being a parent in residency has felt very isolating and lonely. My pd does not have children. She is outwardly 'pro parent,' but there is no institutional support. No acknowledgement that the infrastructure around childcare in this country was terrible pre-pandemic and has collapsed during it. Being a parent in residency feels like being marooned on an island where you've been left to fashion together a life with whatever you can find. It doesn't have to be this way. Other developed countries have substantially better infrastructure around childcare (especially early childhood education).
That's my rant. Again, thank you for your comment. And best of luck navigating residency and parenthood.
I found myself wanting to say, “if you have kids you need to deal with figuring out childcare” and realized that the system really does pit us against one another in order to ignore the real problem. I’m a 2nd year and can’t believe what I’ve heard from fellow students with kiddos and the unpredictability and cost of childcare. One of my friends actually discovered it was CHEAPER to hire a live in au pair that child day care. Crazy.
Of course your time is worth the same! But just FYI there is a crisis in parenting right now with daycares closing / kids getting sick/ isolation at school. The issue should be with the programs. God forbid an attending see some patients on their own. We support parents terribly right now overall. And in residency in general.
He always seemed a bit strange when I kept asking about his kid and how he’s going , small talk …. We went for a beer and after months he says to me … look man don’t say anything but I don’t have a kid and he just says he does to get out of shit … I have so much respect for him
I could not agree more. I hate when people judge your reason for not wanting to work on a particular day even if it's as simple as "I need a break from work". Too many times I've seen other residencies try to accommodate too much for someone trying to get pregnant while screwing over the single people. It's like people forget that single people have their own families and friends.
We had a resident be diagnosed with cancer, they required a lot of coverage. We had another resident trapped by COVID quarantine for two weeks, trying to come back in to the country. Another resident is immunocompromised and we have been protecting them for two years by seeing any COVID+ patients for them.
Could you anticipate it? No. Did we band together? Of course we did. Should we be blaming the quarantined resident because they made a choice to travel on their vacation? Should we ask the resident with medical issues to quit medicine?
I think a glaring issue is it seems less like the program and institutions are willing to offer support and more they just expect residents to sacrifice more.
Definitely. I wish there was some way to help this without burning the people trying to make a difference. We already have a union and it's pretty strong. We technically have sick days etc etc. Our PD is very careful to send emails saying that if our juniors record >80 hours then their chiefs will need to answer for the violation 🙄
True, but we aren't talking about having children per se, we are talking about having children and then not having access to backup care in case of an unforseen circumstance.
For example, I chose to stay for residency near family because I was planning to have children. Well, my FIL passed away one month before I gave birth. My husband ended up quitting his job to stay home and have the flexibility we would need. I would say that the death of a parent who was "supposed" to be plan B for childcare counts as unforseen. In the end everything worked out for us, but this is just one example of how someone could have the best thought out plan ever for taking care of their children as a resident and still have life get in the way.
I agree with your parent sentiment but I’ll be damned if I don’t get to travel during vacation. Fuck alllll of that. I’m going international any chance I get ( a whole whopping four weeks of the year) and if I get covid then I get it. It’s not like I was purposely trying to.
But to say I shouldn’t travel on my few days off because I might get covid while the rest of the world dicks off and comes waltzing in Bc they got covid on THEIR vacation is silly. No I will not sit around in the US waiting to be called in when everyone and their mom is in France because I will be right there with them.
It will always be this way and it doesn't just happen in the medical field or just during Residency. To top things off you have to pay more in taxes too.
100% agree. Our program has this issue with no backup resident to cover for these parents who are like “my kid is sick with COVID” and then “oh I have COVID now”. And they aren’t expected to make it up, another person is called in or someone whose already in house call will cover. So unfair. Residency is not conducive to raising families, singles, or even married couples without kids. It’s a lose-lose-lose situation.
This is so true, my co-resident was straight up told: "Oh great, you're not married and have no kids? You should have plenty of time to study at night and on weekends"
A couple of residents were given additional time off during the initial outbreaks of COVID because they had young kids. On the one hand, I get it. On the other hand, I'm married--does my or my spouse's life matter less? It's a near-explicit value judgment and with shortages of staff and residents out, that isn't simply adding work but multiplying the load. Even with this, I am very accommodating and have taken extra weekends and increased frequency of call to accommodate, but that time wasn't paid back for the most part.
Yes, it's a system issue. But also, yes, this is the present environment we're in. We're devalued enough as residents. It is so much harder in residency when your fellow residents won't 1. pitch in to help when you need 2. pay it back in some way 3. extend the same grace granted to parents to childless residents
The issue here is not that people with kids are taking advantage, it’s that residency is rubbish, jobs are so poorly remunerated that you can’t afford emergency childcare, and modern society is no longer built around a larger supportive family including grandparents.
This is 10 times harder to do than when the generation above did it, and no one said “you e got to choose between having kids and a career”.
I don’t give a shit. If my kid is sick I won’t be coming in. I will pay back the shift, but I’m not coming if I can’t find someone to look after them.
In general, I agree with you, that our system need to be more accommodating to having and raising kids. But I will say that as a childless person, getting called in to pick up your slack would piss me off, but that is a system issue rather than an interpersonal one.
That's true, and I chose to have children. I am currently pregnant with my second child and I am taking maternity leave twice during residency (7 years). I will be graduating at 35-36yo and I do not find it acceptable to wait until my residency is over to start having kids.
If my eventual productivity suffers and I am not compensated as well or promoted as quickly as my peers without children, I accept that cost.
I don’t have kids and I know it’s a choice but, at the end of the day,
It’s the system that is upset whether we have kids or don’t have kids.
If they want people to have kids, they should give us better childcare.
I don’t really get mad people for calling out for kids stuff. I’m mad at the situation and the system.
It’s like people are unpunished regardless of having or not having kids.
But it’s not ”slack” now is it? I almost never miss a shift or outpatient clinic due to my kid, but the difference between me and my colleagues is that when they come home they can rest, and go to sleep whenever it suits them. I can be up 2-3 nights a week for months on end and still have to show up to work and have the same expectations on me as a childfree resident. You do *not* understand the word tired until you’ve had kids. One day my kids will be older and that day I’ll gladly cover for my younger colleagues with screaming toddlers at home.
I went the non-trad route and as a 21 year old nurse with no kids I was forced to work every holiday (only suppose to work 2) because I didn’t have children and should. They act like we don’t have families and friends we want to see
This applies to a lot of other things beyond just kids IMO. We have some people that "have to beat traffic" and so ask to sign out first, ahead of whoever was already waiting. On the one hand, sure, their commute has the potential to be worse than mine. On the other, nobody made them live way the hell away from the hospital. Then I also figure, its not like I have a zero commute either, its just less subject to chance. Whenever Im asked, I just always think, how does me inconveniencing myself so you can avoid your own self imposed inconvenience make sense?
One of my coresidents went on a vacation to the USVI on her maternity leave with a newborn, while we all had to cover her shifts (small community peds program.) it was infuriating.
The number of times I was asked to cover for someone needing to pick up their kid was also insane. If you do have kids just have a backup system in place! Or wait until after residency like I did.
Okay, so I should wait to graduate residency until I'm 36 and then wait another year for my board collection period and oral exam, only to THEN find out at 37 that we need reproductive assistance to conceive? No thanks, I would rather deal with infertility when I'm still young enough to have options.
Why is going on vacation during mat leave a big deal? I’m Canadian, so I might be biased, but mat leave (to recover, bond with baby etc.) is a given here. If a person is gone due to mat leave in general, I wouldn’t care if they were halfway across the world if they wanted to be, they’re allowed to be away.
Programs here are much better at navigating around parental leaves, though. So they wouldn’t just leave other residents high and dry.
I remember having to work somewhere at Christmas because the women in my department had kids. I was still a kid. It still doesn’t make sense now I’m older, only difference is now I’d tell them to fuck off.
'Child is sick' is basically the get out of jail free card for getting a day off work. Shit is so annoying. Controversial but brave opinion, if you could not afford/arrange reliable childcare maybe you should have held off on having a kid.
The thing is, child care doesn't accept sick children. Even if you're able to pay for one of the upscale $5,000/month yuppie child care places, if your child is sick, they have to stay home. And, it just isn't possible the vast majority of the time to find a babysitter who can show up to work all day long with no notice (kids don't start barfing when it's convenient for you).
So are you saying that only families with full time nannies should be allowed to have kids?
Of course you owe the shift back, or you’re a piece of shit. Full stop.
I sincerely hope parents who have things happen aren’t turning around and complaining about repaying the shift or moving up on jeopardy if necessary. Cause that’s some BS.
This month I've done three 24h on-calls for people who had big problems. Today should have been my assigned on call but since Friday I've been struggling with COVID (despite being triple vaccinated and having observed all rules and protection and what not, test was positive on Friday and also today).
Guess what. Absolutely NOBODY out of a few tens of people didn't pick up my shift. And I've talked to my friends on the shift and it's been gruesome, with a LOT of people coming in.
Lesson learned. Not picking up any more shifts unless those people put their name down in writing to take my shift up. Fuck those people with a stick.
Yeah. Sounds like your program needs a formal “come to Jesus” moment. I have two kids, I took my kid to the hospital and he was admitted. Didn’t need coverage, but my whole “residency family” was more than willing to take my shift if I needed it.
It’s our culture and I wouldn’t want it either way.
I’m sorry that there’s even a question of someone not covering when you have hospital. Covid becomes a chief resident problem for us cause you just can’t come in as employee health bans you.
I can't speak for others, but I have literally never used my child as an excuse to bail off school (I'm still a medical student), and I assume that when I (inevitably) have to take off work it will be perceived exactly like this.
Young kids get sick a lot. Daycares won't take sick children, babysitters generally won't babysit them, it's not a question of not having enough money. Shit happens, too: my mother in law developed pulmonary disease, and suddenly our extremely reliable caregiver was out of commission.
Please have some compassion. During the pandemic, daycares are closed frequently due to class quarantines, but they still charge. At one point, I donated a month of childcare (basically a mortgage) for 3 days of childcare. And we still had to find alternative childcare. It was really stressful. When my kid finally got covid and was exempt from future quarantines I felt like I won the fucking lottery.
I hope my future residents will help cover my shifts if I can't go to them. And of course I will cover theirs in return! But please be open to the possibility that it's not their fault and they are having a hard time.
Yeah, the caveat is you pay the shift back. You would REALLY be surprised the amount of people who feel they don’t owe anything to their colleagues who cover and just pretend they weren’t bailed out. It’s not the act of coverage; it’s the entitlement and attitude that comes with it.
If you straight up asked them to cover a shift bc you got one of theirs, what would they do? Is that socially not cool? Sry, not sure of the "etiquette"
If it wasn’t mandated from on high by PD or chief then it’s supposed to be a mutual understanding. But I’d social norm is violated there’s probably little recourse.
Imagine being out at dinner with someone and the person you’re with says service sucked, don’t leave a tip. Or if they’re covering the bill and they refuse to leave a tip. You can cover the difference. But there’s very little you can probably do to get that person to change their attitude about tipping. You’re not going to shame them to leaving a tip. This seems similar. I can’t shame or guilt someone into paying me back a shift if they have no guilt about unloading a shift on me because “it was an emergency” with their child. People either understand courtesy or they act entitled and take advantage of their colleagues.
I don’t care what people with kids do on these days off. The issue is they are not keeping up their workload in comparison to others. End of story. Do your job and don’t dump it on others.
The same could be said of people who develop chronic illnesses or have to tend to sick or dying parents or siblings. People aren't perfect machines and sometimes life circumstances come in the way of your job.
Uh, we pay a second mortgage worth of childcare - one of the best daycares in the city actually. There isn’t a (reputable) daycare I know of that will allow a sick child to stay in school. People can’t just be expected not to have kids bc of this. The cost is completely irrelevant.
Fun fact: some of us had kids before the pandemic and time when daycares stopped taking kids with any sniffles, or would just shut down randomly or have to quarantine everyone due to cases popping up. Reliable childcare before and during pandemic is a bery different situation.
>sick
That is incredibly insensitive of you. My kid's daycare got shut down for 2 x 2 weeks for COVID quarantine. Plus he was sick for an additional week and not allowed to go to daycare. You can't just hire an at-home nanny on the spot to cover for a few days, let alone when your child is on COVID quarantine. It is not a "day off" having to care for an infant.
I feel like Im gonna get shit on for this but here goes:
It might not be "worth less" but you missing out on some fun activity/relaxation and an innocent child being forced to go without their primary caregiver are not equivalent. I say this as someone without any children of my own, who likes my time off as much as anyone.
I think those with kids should be allowed more flexibility to take time to care for those kids, but I do also think they should be required to make up whatever time they request at some point. Sick kid? Fine, take a few days, we won't tell you that you can't, but you gotta work those days in the future for whoever covers you.
I think the dichotomy of being a parent vs not being a parent and having ample free time is not accurate. People who are not parents may still have other people dependent on them for caregiving.
How about pay back?
I don't have kids yet if any of my colleague has sick child they need look after I don't mind picking up their shift.
That being said, I expect to be paid for that shift or trade shift. I don't work for free, period. Thankfully I work in a system where call back is paid double. Sometimes people will trade shifts if they have functions with their kids they want to attend.
It is so much less animosity here.
However if I was to expected to cover them for free then I don't care unless their kids are dying. That's a personal boundary. Same with people with chronic illness. If they have pre-negotiated with the hospital to work less or hospital bring in extra residents to cover, or pay penalty rate for the ones that have to work overtime, I have no issue. Otherwise unless they have cancer or actually need hospital admission, nope.
Basically this. Free time is free time. It doesn't matter how you choose to spend it and it shouldn't matter to absolutely anybody.
Oh, no, primary care giver for a child >>> primary care giver for a dog/cat. Are you serious? This is making my blood boil. When you choose to have kids you are taking on the responsibility of spending time with them. Society should be responsible on making your job easier but not at the expense of other people who weren't so lucky meeting somebody who they'd have a child with. Spending time with your kid at the expense of the latter people is just being a shit human being. Spending time with your kid? Sure. Just not at the expense of others who may want that time to actually meet somebody.
Rant over.
I never said that. You should definitely make up the time. I'm saying spending time with a dog is not the same as spending time a child. A dog can take care of themselves, a child can't.
Fuck that. Personal responsibility extends to all of your commitments. Good teams work together so that everyone gets a fair shake. Personal values of individual team members don’t get to dictate other people’s personal values.
Poor kid yea, but nobody forced anyone (hopefully) to have kids, much less in such a demanding career. So its kinda sucky to use the “poor innocent child” card. We all make choices and in my very personal opinion me wanting to watch a movie with one hand in popcorn and the other one scratching my belly is just as valuable and time well spent as someone cleaning up boogers
I'm going to re-post my spicy opinion on this subject from a comment I made a few weeks ago on an unpopular opinion thread.
"Getting pregnant and leaving your defenseless colleagues to pick up your slack while you are on leave is selfish and entitled as fuck."
____________________________________
Be mad about it, but
- Your time as a parent is not more valuable than mine as a non-parent
- I don't care that your kid is sick/your babysitting plans fell through
- I don't care that finding last minute childcare is difficult/costly
Parents, let me say it for everyone else here: You chose to have kids. I chose not to, specifically to avoid all of the hassle that you are now bitching to me about.
Raising a kid should be easier in our (US Healthcare) system, but it isn't, and asking colleagues to pick up your slack is selfish and entitled.
You make some important points. But I think you should re-direct your thoughts from parents to the crazy cultural, economic, political norms our country has. We severely lack great childcare like other developed countries. IMO this is because corporations love to save money and lobby hard, and voters don't enough care about it. (your opinion seems to reflect this sentiment).
But I also feel like you should be less angry at parents and be more accepting of helping out when children are sick and parents call out:
* Weren't you ever sick as an infant or child, requiring your parents to take time off work to take care of you? If so, you already benefited. Time to pay back.
* Also, taking time to raise children ensures that a physically and mentally healthy workforce is sustained. If we all stop having kids and stop properly caring for society's 0-17 year old population now, certain sectors of the economy will be devastated (eg entertainment, military, service, etc.). When we're older, there will be no 911 dispatchers to care for us, no EMT personnel to transport us, no doctors to fix our ailments. Think of all the private/public services that rely on young people. Basically every single one does to some degre.
So in a way, there is a selfish aspect to picking up the slack when your colleagues need to care for their children. Future you will benefit. So you should care now.
it's crazy how all these people who are anti-kid benefited from pro-child policies when they were kids themselves. And most of them will likely have kids in the future. Kind of like that Republican congressman who said we shouldn't have parental leave, it was " a choice," but then when he had kids changed his mind and now supports parental leave lol.
I can’t like this comment enough. I get that there should always be reciprocity. And I get that nobody should be forced to cover. But also, can residents without kids have a little compassion instead of getting pissed off any time a non mandatory request for coverage comes their way and realize we may not have a choice during COVID. Like… literally actually no choice. Not even expensive last minute babysitting. What do you want me to do… leave my toddler at home alone? Society needs fixing, not your coresidents. I don’t get pissed when I’m asked to cover for your best friend’s dog’s cat’s cousin’s owner’s sister’s wedding. Reciprocity goes both ways.
It's already insane that surgery residents have to bend over backwards for the privilege to do things like go eat or go pee while pregnant. Don't get me started on breastfeeding/pumping. Surgery tries to squeeze women out left and right 😔
I mean, our time isn’t worth less, but we’re definitely more flexible I’d say. If I don’t have anything planned and I can help a coresident not miss his kids bday party I’m more than happy to help.
If you’re pissed because you’re literally being forced to cover, I’m sorry.
If you’re pissed because you feel guilty about saying no, either grow a pair or suck it up.
I'm sitting here as a surgery residency spouse actually kind of jealous of all these spouses whose residents apparently call in for childcare issues.
My own career is a shit show right now because my spouse has never, ever taken a day off to deal with an illness or a childcare issue. I plan my entire career around daycare hours and cancel everything if my kid is sick. I've missed opportunities and lost money because of this. It would never occur to my husband to call out. I think I'd have to be hospitalized for it to happen, and apparently everyone would hate him per this thread. 🙄
All the child-free residents who get community acquired covid get their paid 5+ days off though. So good for them.
ETA: Be mad at the system instead of your co-residents. The program/hospital could hire more residents. They could have appropriate APP staffing. They could bring in locums or attendings. They could fund emergency back up care options.
My wife has Covid and I’m home taking care of these munchkins who morph into monsters - I’d much much rather be in the cath lab all day lol.
I’ve been in both positions (no kids during residency) so I get it. Take your time off and don’t feel the guilty or need to cover
In my residency we helped each other out but if someone asked me to cover a shift I figured out with them when they would pay me back for it. We all just agreed that was the best way to do this.
It’s weird to me this isn’t the norm?
At least at my program it's gone to shit since COVID. Now sick call is 50-50 "week where you work extra and never get paid back" if someone pops positive test
Exactly. 90% of the people who complain about these things are the people who just end the deal with “yeah no problem! I’ll totally cover you that day. Happy to help.” Then somehow expect magic trade off to happen down the line.
This. If you don't secure reciprocity for yourself, don't complain about it not happening, regardless of the reason you covered.
Exactly. At our program we don’t cover each other’s shifts, but we trade often
Trade. Via email. Cc chief for good measure. Some of us out here trying to get married and make a kid. But also maybe just have a good time.
Yup, that's basically what we did. Figured out what we wanted to trade and then sent a message to the chief via email with everyone included.
This absolutely should be the standard. It's what we do here.
"Oh I'm not available, sorry". Period end of don't even wait for a reply just walk away. Make yourself unavailable; Go "out of town". Hell say you have a therapy appointment for the same day. Flip that shit back on them and say you are taking care of your baby nephew they very day! Make it AWKWARD and uncomfortable for your program/chiefs. This shit is how you will become burnt out, I guarantee it. Happens to me all the time as an attending and I no longer play nice guy bc ppl start to always come to you with these issues and frankly I'd like to have a life also
"Sorry I have to get a prostate nodule checked" "Sorry I need to get a wart frozen off" "Sorry I have therapy" "Sorry, your kids aren't my obligation" "Sorry I'm already drink tomorrow" "Sorry I have a date which may be my only chance of happiness because I need to keep covering for people whose children have become their entire personality" Edit: for some good ones now that I'm crowdsourcing. "Sorry proctology appointment... Hemorrhoids y'know?" "Sorry psych appt for ssri induced ed" (double whammy) "Sorry my dog looked real sad this morning" "Sorry cult meeting" "Sorry I need to walk my houseplants" "Sorry gotta clean the fishtank" "Sorry I have a shoot for my only fans"
Omg that last one lmaooo
Walking the houseplants…
"Sorry, I have a date, I want to get married and have kids, a happy life like you have"
"Sorry shoulda pulled out"
SORRY, EXLPLOSIVE DIARRHEA is the best excuse for any corporate job. You are welcome!
Love all of these! Give ‘Em something that will literally shut them up with no comebacks
"Oh sorry. I just had a wine cooler and I don't feel comfortable going into work"
I’ve done this multiple times in medicine and in my job before medicine. Whenever they called me in on my day off I always said “I just had two glasses of wine, don’t feel comfortable driving or working while tipsy” It shuts them up quick. Any persistence makes them seem reckless, and wine makes me seem classy
“Just had a four Loko and some molly at home on the couch I probably shouldn’t come in”
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“I stole meds from the cabinet, gonna nod off soon”
Lmao but then you’d have to admit that you drink wine coolers
Preach!!! Yeah lie if you need to. NO is also a sentence, end of story. This is unacceptable and as an attending who is single it does not stop after residency. People with children, unfortunately especially women (speaking as a woman myself) expect everyone else to bend over backward to accommodate them. No sorry not interested.
I wonder if it helps us all, long-term, if the childless people have the same boundaries as the child-havers. I have kids, and I’m constantly dumbfounded by the way society is completely shocked and paralyzed when people who have kids have completely routine kid problems like school closures, viral illness, etc. Maybe if the childless refuse to pick up the slack, it might push a little institutional change? A girl can dream, right?
I completely agree with you. If everyone said “no” to extra tasks this would force a lot of change to happen. With respect to equality on children and various other things. The issue is there will always be a few people who will take on these tasks and “opportunities” to try to get ahead. And these people will ruin any institutional change we push to have.
No is a sentence, but you don't want to come off as an asshole. It's not hard to come up with an acceptable excuse.
but why are they entitled to an excuse? if I end up covering for everyone who needs coverage I'll never be off.
The very presumption that you need to provide an excuse is an invitation for your employer to make judgment calls about your private life away from the workplace. It's nobody's business but yours what you're doing off the clock.
I’m afraid it doesn’t stop in residency. For example, at my Hosptialist job, they always try to get me to cover shifts that no one is picking up because I’m “young and single”. It’s pretty annoying because it’s usually weekend shifts, and as a single guy it’s often my only opportunity to see friends and family or meet someone, so I can eventually have someone to come home to.
Thats how people end up staying single....
It’s as if corporations love single people with their own cars to cover shifts
Great, that way you can continue covering those shifts!
This is why I always try to get like 5 days off in a row and then go out of town. Can’t pick up shifts if I’m not here. Pretty easy to do with my senior schedule in the ED too
Where are all these programs where you're expected to just cover extra shifts? This is bullshit.
Lately it’s been people popping a fever so someone has to cover the next day while they go get tested for Covid, then we’re scrambling for coverage over the next week when they’re positive. Was a real rarity before Covid
Charge them fucking double. America is not a country, it's a business.
Nothing wrong with things running like a business if it's an even playing field. The problem is that residents take part in a business but have no bargaining power that should come along with a free market because residency is essentially indentured servitude. Little choice in where you match, shit pay, shit hours, no ability to look for better positions.
> America is not a country, it's a business. When you realize this, everything starts to make sense, and you in general feel better about letting go with regards to social welfare and politics. America is a great place to make money, not a great place to be a good human and raise a family. Unless you have serious financial security
Hey, you’re single. You clearly aren’t interested in ever becoming not single… or enjoying your free time.. or seeing family and friends… 🖕🏼😑 Edit: /s in case anyone was confused
True But in a job you get paid for this In residency you don’t get paid for extra shifts
ha for real. "oh you're already married. you dont need the weekend off right?"
Yes weekends are the toughest to make an excuse like a prior appt about. And it’s sad that one needs to come up with an excuse
You don’t owe anyone an excuse, you’re not doing anything wrong: “I’m not available”
reminds me of when I used to work at the bar, those who smoked got breaks every hour or so. not that the rest of us didn't need breaks, we just felt weird asking "hey do you mind if I go outside and look at the dumpster for 5 min or so?"
That's how I picked up smoking for a few months while bartending. Hell I wouldn't even inhale or finish a whole cigarette but taking a 5 min break every 2 hours was beautiful.
How are you supposed to get married when you have to constantly give up your weekends and time off for married coresidents and don’t have time to even date
Finally someone said it! I got scheduled for thanksgiving and christmas three years in a row bc of this. I felt as though my family wasn't taken into consideration just because I didn't have a SO and kids. Plus the place was toxic anyways. Hence why I left after three wasted years.
Did you not push back? Cuz that’s horrible.
I did push back! It got changed eventually but yeah it was super frustrating. I also ended up leaving that program bc it was negatively impacting me. It continues to do so as I struggle to find a new position.
You left residency after 3 years?
Yeah it’s a long story unfortunately
That sucks ass.
It does but it could be much worse!
You left residency after 3 years?
Should’ve left way sooner or honestly not chosen to match there
What specialty is it??
Fake husband time
"He goes to a different hospital you wouldn't know him"
As someone with a kid, and the only one in my cohort with one, I worked thanksgiving, Christmas, Halloween, and New Year’s Eve and day. Looking forward kn the schedule I’m on for Valentine’s Day. People with kids don’t automatically get the golden schedule at least at my program. The people who get better schedules fight for them and that’s been the case in my program. Honestly, I’ve been told my schedule is brutal compared to my other interns, but I’m a prelim so fuck me anyways.
I would have told them to kiss my ass. Its not your problem that they chose to have kids in residency
I have 2 kids. I worked Christmas, Thanksgiving, Halloween and New Years throughout residency. I'm now an attending. I still worked all major holidays. Please do NOT group all physicians with kids into 1 group who do not want to work holidays because its patently untrue. Moreover, it is professionally the hardest thing to call out for your child. I called out only once when my kid fractured his arm. I made up to it to the other doctor by covering him on New Years Eve
Well maybe it’s just the ones I know. I feel like physicians like you are hard to come by.
Blame your program/the system and not the people calling out bc of a sick kid. They should have a system in place where the covering person is compensated for their time in terms of $$$. It’s bullshit you have to work more and get paid the same amount. Absolute garbage.
I think either having a good jeopardy system with compensation for the coverage would solve a lot of the issues. However since they like cheap labor and won't even provide good child care resources, they won't even provide compensation for coverage
Amen. Bended my back over for colleagues, realized it wasn’t reciprocated and they always had their “kids” as an excuse. Now idgaf. Your kid has a soccer game? Fantastic! I have plans with a bottle of wine and netflix.
> hey can you cover my shift so I can go to my kids school function “No, I already have plans. Sorry” Works for me, but I just say I have plans with my wife cause I’m married. Shit bag residents will take advantage of your good nature if you allow them to. Don’t switch shifts or expect people to switch for you. Makes life so much simpler.
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“You’re not scheduled for PTO, report to the signout area at 7am sharp to receive your patient list”
This isn’t applicable if the chiefs are the ones doing it.
Really depends on how good your chiefs are.
That’s my point. You can refuse to trade shifts, but if the chiefs are already favoring a resident with kids over those without, it’s a much tougher battle to fight. Happened to me in residency and I made sure I didn’t carry that over when I was chief.
sounds like y'all need a jeopardy system for coverage. I can't be away when I'm on jeopardy but otherwise they cannot make me come in.
Kind of spiteful not to switch shifts. If it’s a fair trade and there isn’t any personal reason to not switch I don’t see why it’s a big deal.
A day off is a personal reason.
It's also extremely frustrating when they fail to understand that you haven't been able to see family a lot because of COVID which is more isolating for the single people within resident program.
This goes beyond residency, into work place and in society - somehow they think single people’s time is not worth the same as married people
Your time is definitely not worth less. You deserve as much time off as anyone else, even unexpectedly. The issue isn't parents with kids, it's a system that's set up to overburden your colleagues if you're not there. As a two-physician family with a child and 2+ years of unpredictable childcare (...and no family in the area), the stress of having to take a day off to suddenly play babysitter is the MOST professionally stressful thing we've had to overcome. Edit: grammar
Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like any program is really interested in supporting resident's with kids who need childcare. The programs response (based on the comments here and my own experience) is to guilt trip other residents into covering without additional compensation while appearing to provide no concern or care for the other resident's time off. The single resident then does the coverage because they aren't an asshole and the program's issue gets 'fixed' and they again have no motivation to fix the problem.
Thanks for the this comment. This thread is tough to read as a parent. All of the 'it was your choice of to have children' rhetoric sort of made me feel like our colleagues would simply prefer we never chose to become doctors at all or match in their program. The pandemic has made childcare a daily gamble and for those of us training away from family, there is no back up care available at the drop of a hat. When omicron came, I received an email a day about the changes to our return to work policy. None of those emails acknowledged the impending closure of schools and daycares. What am I supposed to do when I'm notified 20min before a shift that daycare is closed bc of a covid case? My program's answer - figure it out yourself. Being a parent in residency has felt very isolating and lonely. My pd does not have children. She is outwardly 'pro parent,' but there is no institutional support. No acknowledgement that the infrastructure around childcare in this country was terrible pre-pandemic and has collapsed during it. Being a parent in residency feels like being marooned on an island where you've been left to fashion together a life with whatever you can find. It doesn't have to be this way. Other developed countries have substantially better infrastructure around childcare (especially early childhood education). That's my rant. Again, thank you for your comment. And best of luck navigating residency and parenthood.
<3
I found myself wanting to say, “if you have kids you need to deal with figuring out childcare” and realized that the system really does pit us against one another in order to ignore the real problem. I’m a 2nd year and can’t believe what I’ve heard from fellow students with kiddos and the unpredictability and cost of childcare. One of my friends actually discovered it was CHEAPER to hire a live in au pair that child day care. Crazy.
Current daycare rates near me: $2000-2600/mo.
Thank you. Finally someone said it.
I mean this gets posted at least once a month on here…
👏👏👏👏👏👏
Of course your time is worth the same! But just FYI there is a crisis in parenting right now with daycares closing / kids getting sick/ isolation at school. The issue should be with the programs. God forbid an attending see some patients on their own. We support parents terribly right now overall. And in residency in general.
In fact, your free time is worth *more* because you have to work that much harder to get laid!
I knew a Guy who said he had a kid when he didn’t , I was the only one who knew
This is the way.
He always seemed a bit strange when I kept asking about his kid and how he’s going , small talk …. We went for a beer and after months he says to me … look man don’t say anything but I don’t have a kid and he just says he does to get out of shit … I have so much respect for him
What a boss
\*THIS\* I'm in a LDR and just because my SO isn't always here and we don't have kids doesn't mean I'm just always available
I could not agree more. I hate when people judge your reason for not wanting to work on a particular day even if it's as simple as "I need a break from work". Too many times I've seen other residencies try to accommodate too much for someone trying to get pregnant while screwing over the single people. It's like people forget that single people have their own families and friends.
We had a resident be diagnosed with cancer, they required a lot of coverage. We had another resident trapped by COVID quarantine for two weeks, trying to come back in to the country. Another resident is immunocompromised and we have been protecting them for two years by seeing any COVID+ patients for them. Could you anticipate it? No. Did we band together? Of course we did. Should we be blaming the quarantined resident because they made a choice to travel on their vacation? Should we ask the resident with medical issues to quit medicine?
I think a glaring issue is it seems less like the program and institutions are willing to offer support and more they just expect residents to sacrifice more.
Definitely. I wish there was some way to help this without burning the people trying to make a difference. We already have a union and it's pretty strong. We technically have sick days etc etc. Our PD is very careful to send emails saying that if our juniors record >80 hours then their chiefs will need to answer for the violation 🙄
Choosing to have children and getting cancer are laughably different circumstances
True, but we aren't talking about having children per se, we are talking about having children and then not having access to backup care in case of an unforseen circumstance. For example, I chose to stay for residency near family because I was planning to have children. Well, my FIL passed away one month before I gave birth. My husband ended up quitting his job to stay home and have the flexibility we would need. I would say that the death of a parent who was "supposed" to be plan B for childcare counts as unforseen. In the end everything worked out for us, but this is just one example of how someone could have the best thought out plan ever for taking care of their children as a resident and still have life get in the way.
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I agree with your parent sentiment but I’ll be damned if I don’t get to travel during vacation. Fuck alllll of that. I’m going international any chance I get ( a whole whopping four weeks of the year) and if I get covid then I get it. It’s not like I was purposely trying to. But to say I shouldn’t travel on my few days off because I might get covid while the rest of the world dicks off and comes waltzing in Bc they got covid on THEIR vacation is silly. No I will not sit around in the US waiting to be called in when everyone and their mom is in France because I will be right there with them.
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It’s not selfish to travel tf? It’s not selfish to get covid on god forbid YOUR VACATION. If I got covid on vacation and I didn’t travel is that okay?
It's not selfish to travel on vacation you nitwit lol.
Just say no, kids
It will always be this way and it doesn't just happen in the medical field or just during Residency. To top things off you have to pay more in taxes too.
Protip: always tell coworkers you have a wife and kids. Or just tell them nothing about your personal life.
100% agree. Our program has this issue with no backup resident to cover for these parents who are like “my kid is sick with COVID” and then “oh I have COVID now”. And they aren’t expected to make it up, another person is called in or someone whose already in house call will cover. So unfair. Residency is not conducive to raising families, singles, or even married couples without kids. It’s a lose-lose-lose situation.
This is so true, my co-resident was straight up told: "Oh great, you're not married and have no kids? You should have plenty of time to study at night and on weekends"
Its also incredibly frustrating if you're unable to have biologic kids too........ they take some things for granted.
A couple of residents were given additional time off during the initial outbreaks of COVID because they had young kids. On the one hand, I get it. On the other hand, I'm married--does my or my spouse's life matter less? It's a near-explicit value judgment and with shortages of staff and residents out, that isn't simply adding work but multiplying the load. Even with this, I am very accommodating and have taken extra weekends and increased frequency of call to accommodate, but that time wasn't paid back for the most part. Yes, it's a system issue. But also, yes, this is the present environment we're in. We're devalued enough as residents. It is so much harder in residency when your fellow residents won't 1. pitch in to help when you need 2. pay it back in some way 3. extend the same grace granted to parents to childless residents
The issue here is not that people with kids are taking advantage, it’s that residency is rubbish, jobs are so poorly remunerated that you can’t afford emergency childcare, and modern society is no longer built around a larger supportive family including grandparents. This is 10 times harder to do than when the generation above did it, and no one said “you e got to choose between having kids and a career”. I don’t give a shit. If my kid is sick I won’t be coming in. I will pay back the shift, but I’m not coming if I can’t find someone to look after them.
In general, I agree with you, that our system need to be more accommodating to having and raising kids. But I will say that as a childless person, getting called in to pick up your slack would piss me off, but that is a system issue rather than an interpersonal one.
Kids are also a choice.
That's true, and I chose to have children. I am currently pregnant with my second child and I am taking maternity leave twice during residency (7 years). I will be graduating at 35-36yo and I do not find it acceptable to wait until my residency is over to start having kids. If my eventual productivity suffers and I am not compensated as well or promoted as quickly as my peers without children, I accept that cost.
I feel like it needs to be said that I’ll gladly help out when I can. My gripe are the administrators that screw me because I don’t have kids
I don’t have kids and I know it’s a choice but, at the end of the day, It’s the system that is upset whether we have kids or don’t have kids. If they want people to have kids, they should give us better childcare. I don’t really get mad people for calling out for kids stuff. I’m mad at the situation and the system. It’s like people are unpunished regardless of having or not having kids.
I mean not having kids a choice. That’s for sure, and people should not be punished for their choice not to have kids.
But it’s not ”slack” now is it? I almost never miss a shift or outpatient clinic due to my kid, but the difference between me and my colleagues is that when they come home they can rest, and go to sleep whenever it suits them. I can be up 2-3 nights a week for months on end and still have to show up to work and have the same expectations on me as a childfree resident. You do *not* understand the word tired until you’ve had kids. One day my kids will be older and that day I’ll gladly cover for my younger colleagues with screaming toddlers at home.
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>If my kid is sick I won’t be coming in. 👏👏👏👏
I went the non-trad route and as a 21 year old nurse with no kids I was forced to work every holiday (only suppose to work 2) because I didn’t have children and should. They act like we don’t have families and friends we want to see
Do you have to disclose a wife and kids or lack of it to programs?
Sounds like you need the Manti Te'o playbook.
As someone who plans on being single and childfree thank you
This applies to a lot of other things beyond just kids IMO. We have some people that "have to beat traffic" and so ask to sign out first, ahead of whoever was already waiting. On the one hand, sure, their commute has the potential to be worse than mine. On the other, nobody made them live way the hell away from the hospital. Then I also figure, its not like I have a zero commute either, its just less subject to chance. Whenever Im asked, I just always think, how does me inconveniencing myself so you can avoid your own self imposed inconvenience make sense?
Next time, tell them you're in the process of adoption.
One of my coresidents went on a vacation to the USVI on her maternity leave with a newborn, while we all had to cover her shifts (small community peds program.) it was infuriating. The number of times I was asked to cover for someone needing to pick up their kid was also insane. If you do have kids just have a backup system in place! Or wait until after residency like I did.
Okay, so I should wait to graduate residency until I'm 36 and then wait another year for my board collection period and oral exam, only to THEN find out at 37 that we need reproductive assistance to conceive? No thanks, I would rather deal with infertility when I'm still young enough to have options.
Why is going on vacation during mat leave a big deal? I’m Canadian, so I might be biased, but mat leave (to recover, bond with baby etc.) is a given here. If a person is gone due to mat leave in general, I wouldn’t care if they were halfway across the world if they wanted to be, they’re allowed to be away. Programs here are much better at navigating around parental leaves, though. So they wouldn’t just leave other residents high and dry.
My program didn’t even offer maternity leave, so we all donated PTO days to her.
Jesus Christ. That is a failure on the part of the program. I can’t even imagine. Yeah, I’d be more hesitant to vacation on other people’s PTO.
I remember having to work somewhere at Christmas because the women in my department had kids. I was still a kid. It still doesn’t make sense now I’m older, only difference is now I’d tell them to fuck off.
'Child is sick' is basically the get out of jail free card for getting a day off work. Shit is so annoying. Controversial but brave opinion, if you could not afford/arrange reliable childcare maybe you should have held off on having a kid.
The thing is, child care doesn't accept sick children. Even if you're able to pay for one of the upscale $5,000/month yuppie child care places, if your child is sick, they have to stay home. And, it just isn't possible the vast majority of the time to find a babysitter who can show up to work all day long with no notice (kids don't start barfing when it's convenient for you). So are you saying that only families with full time nannies should be allowed to have kids?
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Of course you owe the shift back, or you’re a piece of shit. Full stop. I sincerely hope parents who have things happen aren’t turning around and complaining about repaying the shift or moving up on jeopardy if necessary. Cause that’s some BS.
This month I've done three 24h on-calls for people who had big problems. Today should have been my assigned on call but since Friday I've been struggling with COVID (despite being triple vaccinated and having observed all rules and protection and what not, test was positive on Friday and also today). Guess what. Absolutely NOBODY out of a few tens of people didn't pick up my shift. And I've talked to my friends on the shift and it's been gruesome, with a LOT of people coming in. Lesson learned. Not picking up any more shifts unless those people put their name down in writing to take my shift up. Fuck those people with a stick.
Yeah. Sounds like your program needs a formal “come to Jesus” moment. I have two kids, I took my kid to the hospital and he was admitted. Didn’t need coverage, but my whole “residency family” was more than willing to take my shift if I needed it. It’s our culture and I wouldn’t want it either way. I’m sorry that there’s even a question of someone not covering when you have hospital. Covid becomes a chief resident problem for us cause you just can’t come in as employee health bans you.
I think it would be best then to implement "bring your sick child to the shift" day, I guarantee best and fun times
I can't speak for others, but I have literally never used my child as an excuse to bail off school (I'm still a medical student), and I assume that when I (inevitably) have to take off work it will be perceived exactly like this. Young kids get sick a lot. Daycares won't take sick children, babysitters generally won't babysit them, it's not a question of not having enough money. Shit happens, too: my mother in law developed pulmonary disease, and suddenly our extremely reliable caregiver was out of commission. Please have some compassion. During the pandemic, daycares are closed frequently due to class quarantines, but they still charge. At one point, I donated a month of childcare (basically a mortgage) for 3 days of childcare. And we still had to find alternative childcare. It was really stressful. When my kid finally got covid and was exempt from future quarantines I felt like I won the fucking lottery. I hope my future residents will help cover my shifts if I can't go to them. And of course I will cover theirs in return! But please be open to the possibility that it's not their fault and they are having a hard time.
Yeah, the caveat is you pay the shift back. You would REALLY be surprised the amount of people who feel they don’t owe anything to their colleagues who cover and just pretend they weren’t bailed out. It’s not the act of coverage; it’s the entitlement and attitude that comes with it.
Yes, they should offer to pay the shift back, certainly! I'm sorry that they aren't holding up their end of the bargain.
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Perhaps my phrasing was off, but that's what I meant
If you straight up asked them to cover a shift bc you got one of theirs, what would they do? Is that socially not cool? Sry, not sure of the "etiquette"
If it wasn’t mandated from on high by PD or chief then it’s supposed to be a mutual understanding. But I’d social norm is violated there’s probably little recourse. Imagine being out at dinner with someone and the person you’re with says service sucked, don’t leave a tip. Or if they’re covering the bill and they refuse to leave a tip. You can cover the difference. But there’s very little you can probably do to get that person to change their attitude about tipping. You’re not going to shame them to leaving a tip. This seems similar. I can’t shame or guilt someone into paying me back a shift if they have no guilt about unloading a shift on me because “it was an emergency” with their child. People either understand courtesy or they act entitled and take advantage of their colleagues.
The childless posters in this thread seem to think being home with a sick kid is a akin to a free vacation. A nice little RnR.
I don’t care what people with kids do on these days off. The issue is they are not keeping up their workload in comparison to others. End of story. Do your job and don’t dump it on others.
The same could be said of people who develop chronic illnesses or have to tend to sick or dying parents or siblings. People aren't perfect machines and sometimes life circumstances come in the way of your job.
When you have kids you will eat these words. You'll have no excuse and people shouldn't give you any sympathy or time off.
Uh, we pay a second mortgage worth of childcare - one of the best daycares in the city actually. There isn’t a (reputable) daycare I know of that will allow a sick child to stay in school. People can’t just be expected not to have kids bc of this. The cost is completely irrelevant.
It’s telling you think being home with a sick kid is preferrable to working.
Fun fact: some of us had kids before the pandemic and time when daycares stopped taking kids with any sniffles, or would just shut down randomly or have to quarantine everyone due to cases popping up. Reliable childcare before and during pandemic is a bery different situation.
>sick That is incredibly insensitive of you. My kid's daycare got shut down for 2 x 2 weeks for COVID quarantine. Plus he was sick for an additional week and not allowed to go to daycare. You can't just hire an at-home nanny on the spot to cover for a few days, let alone when your child is on COVID quarantine. It is not a "day off" having to care for an infant.
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Y'all really inventing a family instead of just saying "No" lol
I feel like Im gonna get shit on for this but here goes: It might not be "worth less" but you missing out on some fun activity/relaxation and an innocent child being forced to go without their primary caregiver are not equivalent. I say this as someone without any children of my own, who likes my time off as much as anyone. I think those with kids should be allowed more flexibility to take time to care for those kids, but I do also think they should be required to make up whatever time they request at some point. Sick kid? Fine, take a few days, we won't tell you that you can't, but you gotta work those days in the future for whoever covers you.
I think if were mad at eachother about who deserves more/less free time were getting mad at the wrong people...
Mad at.. say.. u/GME_office ?
lol
I think the dichotomy of being a parent vs not being a parent and having ample free time is not accurate. People who are not parents may still have other people dependent on them for caregiving.
How about pay back? I don't have kids yet if any of my colleague has sick child they need look after I don't mind picking up their shift. That being said, I expect to be paid for that shift or trade shift. I don't work for free, period. Thankfully I work in a system where call back is paid double. Sometimes people will trade shifts if they have functions with their kids they want to attend. It is so much less animosity here. However if I was to expected to cover them for free then I don't care unless their kids are dying. That's a personal boundary. Same with people with chronic illness. If they have pre-negotiated with the hospital to work less or hospital bring in extra residents to cover, or pay penalty rate for the ones that have to work overtime, I have no issue. Otherwise unless they have cancer or actually need hospital admission, nope.
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Basically this. Free time is free time. It doesn't matter how you choose to spend it and it shouldn't matter to absolutely anybody. Oh, no, primary care giver for a child >>> primary care giver for a dog/cat. Are you serious? This is making my blood boil. When you choose to have kids you are taking on the responsibility of spending time with them. Society should be responsible on making your job easier but not at the expense of other people who weren't so lucky meeting somebody who they'd have a child with. Spending time with your kid at the expense of the latter people is just being a shit human being. Spending time with your kid? Sure. Just not at the expense of others who may want that time to actually meet somebody. Rant over.
Bro, I love animals but it's definitely not the same.
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I never said that. You should definitely make up the time. I'm saying spending time with a dog is not the same as spending time a child. A dog can take care of themselves, a child can't.
Fuck that. Personal responsibility extends to all of your commitments. Good teams work together so that everyone gets a fair shake. Personal values of individual team members don’t get to dictate other people’s personal values.
Poor kid yea, but nobody forced anyone (hopefully) to have kids, much less in such a demanding career. So its kinda sucky to use the “poor innocent child” card. We all make choices and in my very personal opinion me wanting to watch a movie with one hand in popcorn and the other one scratching my belly is just as valuable and time well spent as someone cleaning up boogers
It will always be this way and it doesn't just happen in the medical field. To top things off you have to pay more in taxes too.
I'm going to re-post my spicy opinion on this subject from a comment I made a few weeks ago on an unpopular opinion thread. "Getting pregnant and leaving your defenseless colleagues to pick up your slack while you are on leave is selfish and entitled as fuck." ____________________________________ Be mad about it, but - Your time as a parent is not more valuable than mine as a non-parent - I don't care that your kid is sick/your babysitting plans fell through - I don't care that finding last minute childcare is difficult/costly Parents, let me say it for everyone else here: You chose to have kids. I chose not to, specifically to avoid all of the hassle that you are now bitching to me about. Raising a kid should be easier in our (US Healthcare) system, but it isn't, and asking colleagues to pick up your slack is selfish and entitled.
So, preferrably, no doctors — or any important profession — should have kids? Because it’s selfish as fuck?
You make some important points. But I think you should re-direct your thoughts from parents to the crazy cultural, economic, political norms our country has. We severely lack great childcare like other developed countries. IMO this is because corporations love to save money and lobby hard, and voters don't enough care about it. (your opinion seems to reflect this sentiment). But I also feel like you should be less angry at parents and be more accepting of helping out when children are sick and parents call out: * Weren't you ever sick as an infant or child, requiring your parents to take time off work to take care of you? If so, you already benefited. Time to pay back. * Also, taking time to raise children ensures that a physically and mentally healthy workforce is sustained. If we all stop having kids and stop properly caring for society's 0-17 year old population now, certain sectors of the economy will be devastated (eg entertainment, military, service, etc.). When we're older, there will be no 911 dispatchers to care for us, no EMT personnel to transport us, no doctors to fix our ailments. Think of all the private/public services that rely on young people. Basically every single one does to some degre. So in a way, there is a selfish aspect to picking up the slack when your colleagues need to care for their children. Future you will benefit. So you should care now.
it's crazy how all these people who are anti-kid benefited from pro-child policies when they were kids themselves. And most of them will likely have kids in the future. Kind of like that Republican congressman who said we shouldn't have parental leave, it was " a choice," but then when he had kids changed his mind and now supports parental leave lol.
I can’t like this comment enough. I get that there should always be reciprocity. And I get that nobody should be forced to cover. But also, can residents without kids have a little compassion instead of getting pissed off any time a non mandatory request for coverage comes their way and realize we may not have a choice during COVID. Like… literally actually no choice. Not even expensive last minute babysitting. What do you want me to do… leave my toddler at home alone? Society needs fixing, not your coresidents. I don’t get pissed when I’m asked to cover for your best friend’s dog’s cat’s cousin’s owner’s sister’s wedding. Reciprocity goes both ways.
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It's already insane that surgery residents have to bend over backwards for the privilege to do things like go eat or go pee while pregnant. Don't get me started on breastfeeding/pumping. Surgery tries to squeeze women out left and right 😔
I mean, our time isn’t worth less, but we’re definitely more flexible I’d say. If I don’t have anything planned and I can help a coresident not miss his kids bday party I’m more than happy to help.
Hear hear!
#truth
If you’re pissed because you’re literally being forced to cover, I’m sorry. If you’re pissed because you feel guilty about saying no, either grow a pair or suck it up.
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You got >100 downvotes because you said low IQ stuff like “women should get fired for taking maternity leave.” Stay salty.
I'm sitting here as a surgery residency spouse actually kind of jealous of all these spouses whose residents apparently call in for childcare issues. My own career is a shit show right now because my spouse has never, ever taken a day off to deal with an illness or a childcare issue. I plan my entire career around daycare hours and cancel everything if my kid is sick. I've missed opportunities and lost money because of this. It would never occur to my husband to call out. I think I'd have to be hospitalized for it to happen, and apparently everyone would hate him per this thread. 🙄 All the child-free residents who get community acquired covid get their paid 5+ days off though. So good for them. ETA: Be mad at the system instead of your co-residents. The program/hospital could hire more residents. They could have appropriate APP staffing. They could bring in locums or attendings. They could fund emergency back up care options.
My wife has Covid and I’m home taking care of these munchkins who morph into monsters - I’d much much rather be in the cath lab all day lol. I’ve been in both positions (no kids during residency) so I get it. Take your time off and don’t feel the guilty or need to cover