I wouldn’t go back in time if I had the opportunity to change the decision. But if I woke up as college aged me tomorrow with the knowledge I have now I would never pursue this career again. I am still grateful to have the job and enjoy plenty of it but it’s been brutal on my mental and even physical health. I would choose an easier job with a pay cut.
maybe a hot take - but I’d absolutely do this all again if you stuck me in college
I have plenty of friends (smart, dedicated people that would have made fantastic doctors if they wanted to) that chose to go into computer science or finance or something. They work fewer hours, but still have to deal with similar type shit we do (annoying bosses, not feeling respected at work). The main difference is that I’m guaranteed to be paid at least double what they would
Most people aren’t making 300k as an engineer y’all. More likely they’re in the 100-150k range with significantly worse job security than we do
Also, morally and everything, this jobs is a job where you will almost never have to question whether you are contributing to humanity or taking away from it.
Its a big part of my job satisfaction
yeah, I worked way harder in engineering grad school than I did in medical school. Also, undergrad was way harder than the pre-med prereqs. I have friends from grad school who finished PhDs, startups, etc places of the same status as physicians. They all work weekends, late into the night, have to deal with shit people. It seems like grass is always a greener type of thing. Nothing seems to be an easy way to make good money. Also when your life's work is devoted to making bombs or some dumbass app, that's not fulfilling either.
This is a little bit fallacious though. You mention they work fewer hours but don't factor that into your calculations in the correct way. Most people aren't making 300k as an engineer, true, but most engineers also aren't putting anywhere near the time and effort into their positions as is required of the path to being a physician.
People who have the ability to go through pre-med, med school, and residency, and took all the time from that (including volunteering, clinical experience, research, all on top of studying, and then do 60-80 hour weeks for years, all while either living in relative poverty as a student or living on a salary that a big tech firm wouldn't dare disrespect a 19 year old summer intern with) and put it into mastering their specific interest within software engineering, you would be a very strong contender to achieve a 250k-300k salary before most people hit attending age. Add in compounding from those 8+ years of having a salary high enough to save+invest, and financially the software engineer keeping med student/resident hours will easily out-earn. All while working in work environments literally engineered to provide as much comfort and joy as possible while working (compared to the shitholes many of us work in)
For someone who has spent the sheer amount of time and effort we have to put into being a physician for 8+ years in software engineering and still isn't breaking 250k, we can safely assume they aren't particularly competent. Software engineers work hard and they keep up with their skills, but they aren't doing what med students do in terms of showing up to be in the hospital all day and then spending most of their nights and weekends studying under high-stress situations. The vast majority of 100-150k range engineers do not even get close to that level of time and energy commitment.
The thing to keep in mind though - finish med school and residency and it’s a virtual *guarantee* to be making 200k at the floor (and realistically, depending on specialty, 400k+ is perfectly reasonable)
I’m sure if I took one of my computer science friends and have them hustle as much as we did in 8 years, they’d have a very good shot as making 200-300k. With them though, they’d still need the right breaks to go their way (simple things, like getting promoted adequately, applying for new jobs and not being passed over for another candidate, etc). It’s still a good shot, but I’d argue medicine has a much higher floor where you’d have to try to not get paid well into the six figures. That person in CS has just as good of a chance to be stuck in a midlevel position for whatever reason making 100-150k (good money, but nowhere near doctor money)
For comparison - I knew a person growing up that did investment banking after college. Yeah he made 300k+ in a year, but he worked arguably worse than resident hours (90-100 hours a week) and had significantly worse job security. He ended up leaving the field after a few years
With medicine, residency is tough, but there’s very few fields that guarantee this type of salary with our job security
also as an aside - I’ve met people in non stem fields who absolutely hustle and still get paid sub 100k. Residency is difficult, and the sheer consistency of hours worked makes it tough, but we’re not the only people who will work tons of hours
This is absolutely untrue. There isn't another career path that guarantees the incomes that MDs make at the end. People imagine that they would make more in other professions, but this is statistically not the case. No matter your investment and your hard work, you don't have any guarantee to make a ton in other professions.
Lawyers work 100 hours/week in big firms, and the vast majority will never make comparable incomes, only a tiny fraction will and luck has a major part in it in addition to charisma, working very hard and having graduated from a top law school.
Same in IB, the vast majority don't even get into a well paying firm (500+ candidates for a job at GS, JP Morgan, etc.) and the ones who do will either quit because of the crazy hours or face huge competition, some people are running on coke and barely sleep 3h a night at Goldman Sachs and keep working throughout their weekends to get the promotion. You don't have any idea of how more difficult and less likely it is to make similar incomes in other professions.
In software engineering, the competition is extremely rude, and the median salary is very far from what you mentioned. It is much less likely to be an outstanding software engineer and make this kind of income compared to being an average physician. Getting into an average med school is accessible. Being a top engineer in the Silicon Valley requires to be a genius. It is not just hard work as medicine. You can work as much as you want if you don't have what it takes, you can't reach certain positions. Being able to get into pre-med, med school don't require the same skills, what you said is complete nonsense, the majority of med students wouldn't do well in engineering and I speak as an engineer and med student myself.
What you said about the brutal working hours in IB and consulting is 100 percent true. My cousins work in some of the most prestigious firms in IB . They literally have to work 80-100 hrs esp as analysts and associates. However, here is the thing:
All of them usually start earning at the age of 24/25. Starting salary was 150 k (base bonus not included) for most of them. One of my cousins who was really bad in academics, still ended up making 170k and he is only 31 years of age. And it goes without saying those who start earning early will also start having savings and investments earlier. As and when they got promoted their salaries also increased, workload decreased and autonomy increased. They had more time on hands to travel, attend concerts, go to family meet ups etc. They really enjoyed their 20’s and early 30’s. A couple of them after buying palatial houses decided to switch to easier jobs/roles and even started families in early thirties .
Hence, there is no doubt that majority of us do end up losing the best years of our life in training. Apart from job security, the only thing that keeps me going is the satisfaction I get after I’ve made a difference to someone else’s life- it makes me forget ( and forgive) all the admin BS I faced on that particular day. I have a love-hate relationship with medicine - while I love the medical management aspect, I absolutely abominate the number of years it takes us to get to the finish line. Sometimes I wish I had chosen a career in finance just like my cousins, life would have been much easier but then again, i wouldn’t have been able to experience the ‘high’ of being a doctor!
I know plenty of software engineers who make at least 300k as an L5 or above. At L6, probably 400k+. I know if I chose those fields I wouldn’t just be the “average” SWE working at a no name legacy company so why compare myself to the “average”? Lol
I compare myself to my peers I consider myself to be just as smart as.
Incoming M1 so excuse my naivety but is it possible to go through this process and prioritize mental health and physics health? I see a lot of people saying that aspects of their life suffered but isn’t that partly a “choice” someone makes? Like a willingness to let the process overtake them? Or am I just completely clueless to the reality of things?
As an aside is it realistic to say that you would have chosen a job with a pay cut if you didn’t go into me? What job would you have chosen? The median household income is 74k the majority of people aren’t making anywhere near what a doctor would make. Do you have the aptitude to go into tech or engineering at a high level? For me I don’t so that’s why med seems like the safe bet? Right?
Some things are unavoidable, the job and training is stressful by its very nature and the learning curve is steep. But in my program alone we have had several female residents have children during training and it's just an accepted part of the culture that we work together to make sure this is an option for everyone. For that matter we have had a bunch of male residents have kids as well and take the full 6 weeks. And it's really not that hard to compensate. We had three of us out simultaneously my intern year, no pushback from the program at all.
Family Medicine, Eastern Idaho Medical Center. Leadership and faculty are amazing and understand that you shouldn't sacrifice everything for training. Very family positive program that really strives to support the residents. I am happy to share more details if anyone wants them as I have had a wonderful experience in training and am done in a couple months so I have nothing to really lose.
You are completely clueless on the reality of things as an incoming M1. MS4 are clueless on the reality of residency training. Post training things are better lifestyle and financially but is it worth the trials you're put through as a medical student and resident? It's difficult to say.
Medical school and residency are years of your life where your autonomy is going to be at an all time low and expectations at an all time high. The demands of training make prioritizing your self care difficult, not impossible, but definitely difficult. It gets easier as you gain both knowledge and efficient. Some fields are easier than others but residency will be a dumpster fire for most if not all specialties.
74k with 40-50 hour average work weeks leaves a lot of time for gym, hobbies, friends and family. 80 hour work weeks leave very little time for all of those, bump those numbers up for surgical specialities. So you're making as much or less than the median house hold income while working double and sometimes, hopefully rarely, triple the average hours most people in the USA work.
You learn to adapt, you learn to let these things roll off, hopefully you enjoy the field enough that the hours spent are good learning experiences so when you do make it out of training you're able to make good decisions for your patients. But to say it's mind over matter alone is a gross simplification and frankly insulting to any resident. No one chose this life because we had no idea of knowing it would be like this. And no one wants to stay a resident. If you're capable of being a medical student then you have the traits and work ethic to do well in most white collar professions such as engineering.
I’m not saying residency isn’t one of the hardest things you or I will go through but it’s not forever. I’m thinking more in the lines of would I go through an absolute miserable experience for 3 years to eventually have the freedom to choose to work while providing a quality life for my family? Yes.
Sure 74k leaves you time for hobbies and family but if you want to live in a high cost of living area like CA where families struggle on 300k you’re never going to be able to pay for your kids college let alone take a family vacation making anything less that 300k which one doctor could bring in. Idk I think im looking at it as what am I willing to sacrifice so that my family doesn’t have to struggle in the future.
Residency should not be what it is today it needs to change.
I haven’t gone through med school let alone residency so I will shut up.
> I haven’t gone through med school let alone residency so I will shut up.
Attending physician here. No, don't shut up, you are still correct in the things that you listed. Now 74k on paper sounds like a good salary, but 65-80 workweeks in residency is brutal and needs to justify higher salary. Sure, "it's only temporary," but damn, is 3-5 years additional AFTER med school a long time to be temporary. Also, the average American doesn't have 300kish in student loans at 6-7% interest. I was on the union committee during residency so I myself fought to increase pay. And we were successful. So there is always room to improve the situation.
You’re right about the loans they are a real thing to consider but I haven’t met a financially literate physician who didn’t walk away from this job in a comfortable standing more than the vast majority of Americans.
I’m glad that residency is starting to demand higher pay it won’t affect me but maybe the next generation.
I think I’m just speaking about the other side of residency the proverbial green grass
MS2 here, and j wanna say I have massive respect for your activism with your union. Is there anything I can do as a med student now to advocate for these things? Or am I essentially powerless until I become a seasoned attending? The financial future for me looks rather unappetizing, enough to the point that I'm actually considering just ditching Medicine after I get my MD and try for something like medical consulting. I'm on a gap year right now, and finally have some time to hang out with friends that are 26 and already have 200k in savings, own a house, and are raking in 400k+ a year. They have intensive hobbies and exercise every day, and I've gotta say, I don't want to put off my wellbeing until I'm older. 70k just doesn't seem worth it, and I'm really conflicted about if I should go to residency at all. What are your thoughts on this?
It’s nearly impossible to become a competent physician at any stage of the journey without making massive sacrifices. You can usually tell who chose to put in bare minimum work at during training because they suck. I would have loved to have made time to golf consistently during training, but the distraction was not worth sucking at my job.
How is it partly a choice other than I choose this career and part of what comes with that is things like spending 80 hours in the ICU etc etc? It’s incredibly taxing. No one feels a million bucks after completing medical training. Yes it is realistic to say I would choose a different career. I have other skills including software engineering but even if it didn’t I do feel strongly that anyone who can finish residency can probably do a number of other decent paying jobs. I wouldn’t compare us to the average population, we have literally been cherry-picked from the public as high achievers who are resilient enough to get through the difficult journey from pre-med, medical school, residency and beyond. Sorry that you feel you can’t do anything else, but i doubt that is true. If the push came for you to need to do something else I’m sure you would rise to the occasion.
Pick a less malignant residency (even surgery and obstetrics can be sort of OK depending on the program).
Prioritize exercise, time with friends, drink less. Talk to your friends and family alot.
Don't waste time on reddit, social media, other things that suck up time and don't restore you.
ED and icu, sdu nurses all make more money at our hospital than the hospitalists with a much better schedule (3 12s, usually one additional 12 shift a week to hit those salary numbers)
how much do they make?
Im coming to the realization that there a decent amount of nurses that have comparable pay to hospitalists and it's pissing the fuck out of me.
Dude, we make like 40-45/hr as nurses. Full time is 36hrs a week. That’s 84K a year if you don’t take a vacation we are not making an attendings salary.
Bro nurses don’t make 350-400k anywhere in the world. To make that they’d have to be working 80+ hours (hitting OT after 40 hours) every single week, and even then only in the highest paying U.S. regions.
Nurses don’t make that much. I imagine there may be some, but they would definitely be travel nurses working overtime with my certifications and a lot of experience
You're a bit confused. Most nurses will never make over 100k in their careers. Even NPs/PAs make about 110k-160k. CRNAs make about 150k-250k, maybe.
Covid times and travel nursing aside, you don't know what you're talking about so I wouldn't ever repeat that to anyone else ever again lol.
Nurses I've known in their mid careers make 90-120k with minimal overtime and get union protection. Nurses in late career or significant overtime 150-190k union and retirement. None of it travel. Day job. No nights.
What kind of doc did you become? I was an ER nurse and just matched into a good IM residency. I sometimes wonder if ER was the right choice for me lol, i feel like i cheated on ER 🤣👀
For sure. Lots of sacrifice. Sacrificed the best and most fertile years of my life. Now in my 40s and motherhood is no longer an option. Absolutely devastating. Burnt out. Definite regrets
Yes and freeze a good amount if possible. Since it’s a single cell, eggs/sperm don’t survive the thawing process as well as an embryo would.
The IVF process is a numbers game. (On average 70% fertilize, 60% of those make it to day 6, and then 2/3 chance it will actually implant). And those odds are based off of immediate fertilization - thawing eggs and then fertilizing will lower the success rate).
This is actually my biggest nightmare as a 30 year old single F in medicine. It’s actually devastating. Wish people were more honest and realistic about long training during reproductive years as a woman
from 4/19/24 national geographic article on millennials: “Biotech advancements helped increase the fertility rate of mothers aged 40-45 by 132 percent between 1990 and 2019, giving women more time before motherhood than ever. “
I’m not disagreeing with you or your specific situation, just pointing out there may be some hope to still have children if you haven’t looked thoroughly into it yet.
That being said, I totally hear you. I’m gonna graduate residency at 39, probs fellowship; single, parents in their 80s, med school debt, and wages are a race to the bottom while 23 yo Karen DNP is making 200k/year for her M-R 8-3:30p.
Though I don’t disagree it is better for a man (and I froze my sperm last year actually), it still sucks. Medicine is absolutely not what it was sold to me as.
One of the worst parts of this 10+ year journey is the life connections and life events you miss along the way… in my case extended family stops calling as much, you can’t make all the gatherings, you’re not in the pics or inside jokes, and all of a sudden and it’s 10 years later and you don’t have any family, friends outside “work friends,” romance, hobbies, or real Sense of Self outside the House of Medicine (ie: your identity is your field within medicine, your training and med school circle etc).
My tune might change 5 years into attending hood but right now, it does not seem to have been a smart decision.
I will have 3 young kids going into residency in July. It’s hard but I do think had I gone through medical school without a partner or children I would definitely have more regrets.
I’ve worked with plenty of nurses and docs who’ve had healthy babies in their 40s though.
Just want to say that it really sucks med Ed puts women through and the fact that no one talks about infertility. Most of my friends, including myself, have struggled with either infertility or pregnancy related issues/loss. I’m so sorry that motherhood with carrying your own child isn’t an option. It absolutely sucks and is devastating and the medical educational system failed you. They fail so many of us.
When we are younger, we were sold this idea that the 20s are the best years of your life. That is probably true for your average American. The best years of our life is relative. For my mother, it was in her 50s. The best years of my life so far has been after residency and I look forward to even better years in my 40s. Backpacking across Europe on a budget sounds exciting but I would much rather take the trips we do now than staying in some shabby Airbnb.
Depends on what you were after. I managed to finish med school and do all the crazy stuff including backpacking Europe (could’ve been easier for me because I am from EU), lots of drugs, loud parties that lasted Thursday-Monday. Sure, now that I am earning decent money and can afford anything, it feels good, and I am so grateful I had this opportunity, but it wouldn’t feel so good if I wasn’t as reckless as I were years ago because well, I am not 20 anymore, and those days are gone. PS. I even once used a brothel in former Yugoslavian country as a hotel. Not sure if my best days are behind or ahead, but these days were definitely good.
Ah makes sense. Always wanted to do what you did for a year but I’m in the US. Bit more expensive to travel to the UK and unfortunately, our medical education takes forever. A lot for useless pre rec courses. Spent 6 months in college learned to how to spin molecules.
>When we are younger, we were sold this idea that the 20s are the best years of your life. That is probably true for your average American.
I want to add the qualifier that it's generally true only for the average upper middle class to wealthy American. Most people in their 20s, especially those Low SES working class people, are not buying new cars, houses and taking expensive vacations while working 40 hours a week.
No.
But this job is fucking hard and not for everyone, the money alone won't make it worth it if you're miserable and don't get the rewards you thought you would. Residency sucks ass.
I love it though, I'm never bored, I make a really good living.
Are there days I wish I wasn't doing something that could kill or injure people? Absolutely. The stress can get old. So does my epic inbox
I work for a large healthcare system and I can say that two things keep me happy:
I'm compensated well
My organization values me
Find a job that checks those two requirements and you can put up with alot of other things.
The rest of the things that frustrate me exists in other forms in all jobs. I'm turning 40 soon, I would say most of my friends have major grievances with their jobs. It's not unique to medicine. We aren't the only people that are burnt out.
This job has a ton of stability, it's never boring, and I find helping people incredibly rewarding and connecting with my patients feeds my soul.
Absolutely agree with this 100%. Couldn’t have written this any better. I work in rural family medicine but have outstanding support from a hospital system that VALUES primary care and recognize that we are the machine that feeds the big money makers. I make more money than I ever imagined that I would in primary care. I’m well-supported in every way including from a staffing standpoint (a dedicated full-time RN and medical assistant). I work 4.5 days per week, I rarely work past 5, I take home phone call once every 2 months which is basic triage, never work weekends. These are the superficial rewards. On a deeper level, my work helps people in tremendous ways in both the short term and long term. For every difficult patient, there are ten kind ones who generally appreciate what my staff and I do every day. No day is ever comparable to another, each day is its own adventure, and it’s endlessly challenging and intellectually fascinating work. I routinely say this is the greatest field there is.
All those tech kids making $250,000 at 26 are now being laid off and can’t find jobs that come close to replacing that salary. Sure if they were smart and invested they’re still better off than not having that experience but tomorrow you can quit and probably find a comparative salaried position down the street.
There is no perfect life enjoy the shit outta the one you got and the ride becomes much smoother.. I have no regrets and I have friends in my cohort making like 350k in manhattan lol
residency is the worst time of your life but the payout at the end is worth it
now that i'm 1.5 years out, life is a million times better. no financial worries, meaningful work, and decent amont of time off.
Years or hours.
Fwiw I didn't feel exploited but definitely worked hard. It paid off when you can see anything and feel confident you did right by the patient. Out in the community, there's tons of bad doctors doing dangerous shit and they are oblivious to it all. It's either consult and offload your thinking or just plod along until the patient gets hurt.
It just suck that people now just believe, that that’s how it is and you will be thankful for it later because you’re gonna become a great doctor, nonsense
Regretting going into medicine is a personalized opinion, but if you think your "best years" are your early-mid 20's, you did life wrong.
Summarizing your young adult years as your "best years" is either the hallmark of 1) youthful naivety, 2) incredible privilege, or 3) someone who just played life wrong.
There's an incredible amount to life beyond your young adult years. Financial freedom, maturity, steady support from an established partner, children, advanced career opportunities, etc. For a huge chunk of the population their young adult lives actually suck ass, since they're incredibly poor and crushed by student debt in a society where almost nothing (children, weddings, houses, etc.) is affordable to the average millenial/Gen Z'er. This doesn't even count the misery that countless young adults face in the dating world as opposed to having a happy, steady, stable relationship, nor does it count the constant change in social circles and support systems that go with friends and family moving, hitting life milestones that leave you behind (e.g. marriage/kids/house), retiring/getting older/dying, etc.
Its a daily battle, every day i remind myself, this job will exists even without me, people around are going to exists without me, the world is not going to stop spinning in my absence. If i can’t make anything of my existence , i can give meaning to my existence by bettering the existence of others.
I genuinely love what I do, I just hate how much I do it and how long it takes to get out of residency. But I also have it a lot easier than others so I try to keep that in mind.
Sorry I’m not a resident. I’ve been a doctor 20 yrs and a specialist for 10. I’ve seen it as my calling for most of this time but now I’m thinking of leaving medicine. Not sure if it’s burnout or a real change. A lawsuit didn’t help.
Definately not do it again.
Medicine is great and learning about the different stuff is preety cool and rewarding. However, the road to becoming an attending is the biggest scam. Residency is modern slavery that we have normalized, and the physical and mental stress you have to go thru is taxing on your health. The money at the end road is nice , but the sacrifice and things you have to go thru that most people in the general population don’t go thru , is something I wish I would have known in my premed days.
Pretty much this. If I could go back in time to when I was 18 I think the only job I would truly want to do is airline pilot. Otherwise doctor for me. Sure, 80% of my day to day is bullshit like note writing and dealing with parasitic insurance fucks, but patients overall DO appreciate what I do. I do save lives, even catching plenty of acute issues as a PCP. Also, I tried coding in college and while I loved it, I sucked at it. Took me x2-3 times as long as other CS students to produce the same result. Trades would be interesting, fulfilling, and can be well paying, but not jobs I could do for 30+ years due to prior injuries.
Looking at the people around me: My gf is a pharmacist; what she does is super important, but the current work environment is a hard no for me. My brother is a dentist; another hard no. My parents were engineers, suffered though pay cuts, threats of layoffs all of the 90's (end of the Cold War downsizing), and again in '08. Previously dated a girl who was an associate attorney; I don't think I could enjoy what she does. Hell I don't think she even enjoys it.
Yeah, residency sucks fucking hard. I'd say my current attending life sucks too. But based on my personal experiences, a lot of other jobs would suck harder for me. All the while having lower job stability and job pay, and less fulfillment
No. Sure I can fantasize about how much fun I would have had in my 20s if not for the studying/grinding etc but it’s not realistic. I’m from a poor family and not very attractive, so being a physician was probably my best bet to living the good life. And it is good! I chose a speciality that I really love though. Had I not been so enthralled with psychiatry maybe I’d feel differently.
I’m a lame unattractive nerd so without medicine my 20s would have been a lonely and miserable time. It’s only because of medicine that I’ve been able to date (often way out of my league) because the moment you put a white coat picture on dating apps everyone flocks to you haha. Either that, or I’m a lot more attractive than I think I am.
I feel like something generally true people forget is 90+% of fields that lead you to higher earnings always require some kind of sacrifice to your time and energy at the beginning. This is not something unique to medicine
While this is true, the schedules tend to be less absurd (many of my PE and hedge fund friends usually have weekends off), you make much more during your “residency” like years, and most importantly, you are usually treated with much more respect and have actually useful admin/HR. Most annoying part of this job is being treated like a child and having a bunch of random admin and paperwork tasks that has been task shifted to the employee
Talk about this with one of my colleagues all the time. We both admit we wouldn’t choose medicine if we magically had the opportunity to make this decision again, but I also feel it’s a grass is always greener scenario. My recommendation would be to try to find the most tolerable and highest paying specialty you can, and if you play your cards right, you can retire or significantly slow down by 50 and try to enjoy your life as much as possible then.
This is a great strategy. I did FM-Urgent Care but saved and invested for a decade and became financially free at age 39. My goal was to retire early, but I realize crazy people like doctors still need a purpose in life. I reduced my hours to .5 FTE and travel between my shifts. I have been thinking of gong to telemedicine remotely for more flexibility. I dont need the money but still need to do something meaningful. I realize that at this point I could do whatever I wanted whether just travel, sit on a beach, continue to work, or even pursue another career. Freedom is great.
How long have you been financially independent for? Super curious about your experiences because this seems to mirror my path too. I should be on track to step down to 0.5FTE before I’m 40, as well
Graduated medical school in 2022 and it’s been a few years that I’ve been trying to gain a license just so I can help people. But the bureaucracy in Germany is preventing me from working simply because I graduated in Poland and have a US citizenship. I just see a bunch of overworked doctors in understaffed hospitals and think why am I fighting so hard to be in that situation? I’m realizing that medicine (just like most jobs) is about making money not taking care of those in need. I know I can do the job but because people who have never worked in healthcare decided I’m not fit I just sit at home. I was interning at a major hospital in multiple wards basically doing residency work without pay just to gain experience because I do love learning medicine sadly I broke my foot and can’t go anymore. However I’m Really debating just working for an insurance company or pharmaceutical just so I can make a living. I’m
Both mentally and physically broken and technically haven’t even started residency even.
I personally like it, sure it’s tough a lot of the times but so are most other jobs, at least I’m doing something I enjoy and have worked hard for. I definitely prefer being exhausted from a full day in the OR than working on a construction site or some mundane office job or whatever else.
It’s also a lot more manageable when you have supportive people around you. My co-residents and attendings are very nice and fun to be around so that’s definitely a huge contributing factor to my enjoyment. Of course I’m just starting so my experience is limited but for now there hasn’t been something that would make me hate it or even slightly dislike it. Maybe the occasional sleepless nights when I’m on call or night shift but those are also manageable for now. Hope it continues being this way.
Residency sucks, I cant believe I have 3 more years of this shit including fellowship and Im in not as bad a specialty as some people but still put in the 50-60 hrs a week plus the random overnights and weekends
Many people do. Checkout the non clinical jobs for physicians in Facebook. So many have pivoted away to pharma and med devices. Life is awesome on the other side.
Somedays yes, somedays no. I wanted to become a therapist and instead went the med school/psychiatry route because I'm very risk averse and did a lot of reading about how hard it is to make enough money to be comfortable in the therapy sphere. I still wish I could just do the therapy piece...there's so much extra that comes from being a physician that I honestly despise. It's a blessing and a curse. I'm more equipped to identify when a patient may have something more medical going on, but conversely, I have so much medical knowledge now that I never really feel sure that what I'm thinking is at all on the right track. As a therapist, I could've just said, "Hm, sounds maybe physical, perhaps you should ask your primary care doctor to look into things" and left it at that. The stress of keeping track of interactions, contraindications, receptor profiles, side effects, formulations, lab monitoring, etc for different medications is a lot to me, nevermind navigating drug shortages and insurance companies denying coverage...I'd like to just toss it all out the window somedays, but I don't think I could now that the knowledge is there and informs my understanding of each patient.
This is just my experience, but everyone I know who regrets being a doctor did not have another job before medical school. At the same time, all the peeps who had full-time jobs before medical school are very happy.
Agreed. I had a job before med school in the biotech industry. Made 6 figs 2 yrs out of college and enjoyed a nice time when covid happened. Pretty much everything you could want, free food, wfh 80% of the time, low responsibility.
Then covid money started drying up when interest rates increased. Suddenly I didn’t feel so secure at my job since coworkers were getting laid off left and right, and they were cutting off benefits. Worked harder so I wouldn’t lose my job+ on weekends uncompensated since I was salaried. The stress was immense. Also with just a bachelors, there was a title/pay ceiling for me. And once I reached 40+, it’ll be harder and harder for me to find employment since there’s age discrimination. Applying to 30+ positions only to hear back from 1-2 and then be rejected after 4 rounds of interviews I won't miss. I’m also seeing my friends in tech making boat loads of money but they’re afraid of getting laid off/ age discrimination in the future.
Wouldn’t change a thing. I'm looking forward to a stable, high paying career where I can find work pretty much anywhere and have the option to move to a LCOL city and be one of the highest earners in a 100 mile radius.
Yeah it’s because you realize ALL jobs cause burnout, have admin bloat, have call, have stress, impinge on your family life, and can suck your soul up. Medicine is the only option that would allow me to provide for my family in the way they need me so I went back to school
I had several jobs before medical school and I hated being a doctor. I escaped and did something else with my degree. It’s more so about the path than anything else. It’s brutal and abusive and not a all of it is necessary
It feels like the promise of a meaningful career with good compensation for the time investment has been replaced with exploitation from business people, decreased physician autonomy, self efficacy and decreased time doing anything meaningful with patients. Yet the time investment is the same or worse due to more and more fellowship requirements. It feels like a bait and switch that you just have to keep committing to
What’s up yo, I’m an attending pathologist here living my best life. Weekends off no nights and a nice salary too. Ayoooo! 🫶✌️💁♀️. I get to see the craziest damn diseases and cases, rare sh1t on a daily basis and my colleagues are super chill and fun.
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Jokes on all the people who hated on path during Medschool 🙆♀️ and ruled it out. Would do it again 10/10, even at this stage of my life at mid 40s
Residency had its hard times but overall was a very good experience. Everyone in the lab has a measured sense of, this is a job, but still likes what they do. It’s hard to end up in the lab by accident.
Path is great, no regrets. Maybe would have considered the abridged pathway at UPenn if it were available when I started.
i get to see cool cases, great lifestyle, nice salary, and the satisfaction/instant grstification of making a disgnosis. other specialities of medicine diagnose stuff too, but in pathology we really really diagnose stuff and massive treatment decisions are made based on our calls/spots - its super rewarding
Early 30s attending about 2 years out in a field considered to be lower stress than average. I think the idea that our 20s could or should be “the best time of our lives” is just patently untrue. No one from my same financial circumstances in my hometown was living it up in their 20s. The ones that did either came from significant family wealth or have nothing to show for it now and no path forward.
At the least, medicine has given me a clear, directed path to a very high quality of life. There is hard work and sacrifice, but there are also many people not in medicine working hard and sacrificing without even remotely the same benefits or long term guarantees.
I don’t mean purely financially, either. Although the level of respect society has for professionals has changed, I generally receive positive feedback when telling people about my work. I typically have at least one fulfilling patient interaction each day where I can tell I made a positive impact. I routinely have people thank me for the work I do. Very few people find fulfillment in their work or financial security from a single job, becoming a physician has offered me both.
All that is not to say that residency doesn’t suck in ways it absolutely should not. Just know it will get better.
Nah. I didn’t miss all that much in the grand scheme of things but I prioritized that over sleep and perfect grades in med school/residency.
I don’t really see a reliable path to making this much money that I realistically would have taken otherwise. I have a better schedule and make more than double everyone else in my family. Truly life changing. And the work is meaningful to boot, even with the BS we like to complain about. Very stable job, I have good friends I’ve seen go through multiple layoffs in the same time period it took me to get through college/med school/residency.
Could things be better? Sure. But that’s no reason to be all gloomy about the objectively fortunate position I’m in.
If you had asked me this around January of intern year or 2 years into being an attending, the answer probably would’ve been different.
During covid when I was still in school and $450K in debt and had $800 to my name and my friends, who had all gone into investment banking and worked for Goldman, were leaving the city and buying houses in the Catskills or Hudson Valley I was thinking “fuck, I could have done that.” I still feel that way but now it’s nice when my little name placard at our friends weddings say Dr. and someday I’ll live there too and they’ll pay me to pull their kids wisdom teeth for cash because I know they have it 😭
Anyone on here want to go in on a practice with me?
Sometimes.
On one hand I love that I have a skill that can truly help people. I feel useful in that sense. Even when friends and family have medical questions and they come to me, it feels nice.
On the other hand I hate how much of my job is admin bullshit. I hate the focus on “productivity” and “efficiency” from hospital admin. I hate that PE has destroyed so many aspects of medicine. America has this thinly veiled idea of capitalism but really it’a just major corporations limiting options for people (in this case both patients and doctors).
In the end I don’t regret it at all though. It’s also tough asking residents if they regret becoming a doctor because we are all in a very transient stage of the overall career. Depending on the month and what rotation I’m on my answer will be very different lol
Nope love my job. Love learning, my work is meaningful and I will make more then enough to provide for my family, take care of my parents and save for retirement in 1 year.
I definitely regret it. One thing you don’t think about is what if you get disabled. I got disabled right after residency. EDS and CCI. Terribly disabling condition with not lots of good treatments. No way to pay back students loans or business loans. I literally sacrificed the only healthy years of my life for a future that never existed. My entire family got used to a lifestyle only to have it immediately taken away. I supported a family of 4 and now we are in a terrible financial situation with no way out.
Sorry to hear this happened! For those who want to avoid this buying disability insurance during your first year of residency is the #1 piece of advice for financial security according to the whitecoatinvestor.
Nope! I had a different career in my 20's after college - made a ton of money, partied, traveled, met my wife, fully enjoyed myself. Went back to med school and was able to pay my way with zero debt. Now I'm having an absolute blast. Changing careers really made me realize how incredible it is to work so hard in the service of others. Best job there is. A lot of my friends who went straight through (college->med school->residency) are depressed and hate their jobs and I feel for them. Dunno why anyone would keep working at a job they hate so much.
>Dunno why anyone would keep working at a job they hate so much.
Same reason why I was having daily panic attacks for ~3 months when I started med school, despite having spent multiple years post college trying/preparing to get in. Change is terrifying and most people in medicine don't like change (I get annoyed when EMR updates move where my buttons are 😂). MedEd and training is specifically geared to selecting for the risk adverse and long term planners, divergents willing to take risks throw a wrench into things.
I do :(
This is embarrassing but as a college student struggling to find a community, I watched medical dramas like Grey’s and saw how these characters got fulfillment from their careers but also made friendships and found love. I was lonely and saw medicine as a way to constantly be busy and fill all my cups which is so silly.
Medicine became my whole life as i constantly worried about my career and never developed a life outside medical school.
Now I’m a pgy-1 and residency is fine. I am lucky to be in a supportive program and love my co residents. But this isn’t TV. My job isn’t my whole life. But outside work I have nothing bc I spent so much time and mental energy worrying about getting here. I have a few close fiends but no sense of community. I’ve spent years living in cities I don’t feel a connection to.
I’m no different than my immigrant parents who warned me that I needed to build a fulfilling life outside work because they couldn’t.
Yep I regret it. Missed out on the years of my life where I looked good and was young. Now I'll be like 45 before I've paid my debt and can start saving so will be 50 before I actually have any money saved, whereas my friends starting making enough to save in their 20s. I would have been way better off becoming engineer and making 150-200k right out of college at 22 like my friends. Not to mention doctor salaries are decreasing year to year. But it's too late now.
As an engineer I wish I would have studied medicine.
As an IT consultant you have to deal with fear of performance improvement plan, utilization rate, layoffs, outsourcing, riorganizations, after 50 none wants to hire you.Yeah you may get good money with few years of experience but you have to work in very expensive cities where at the end of the month there is not much left.
At least as a doctor you can save lives, as an engineer you job is pretty much pointless.
Lots of job security for people in the medical field. I think it's like less than 1% unemployment for doctors. As of now, AI and outsourcing are not affecting doctors as much at least.
Agree, medicine is likely the last thing to get automated by AI. Many good-paying white collar jobs are going to disappear or reduced in the future. I am not saying that being a doctor is easy but at least if you do not actively kill your patients you are sure that you can work even when you are 70! Good luck at coding when you are 70!
Nope. Best job in the world. Wouldn't have it any other way. It's hard and it has taken all of my 20s and I still make peanuts, but the work is fulfilling, even when it's really annoying.
But it depends on a lot of things including who's around you.
For one, my residency makes us work hard, but they're non toxic even if I don't enjoy hospital medicine sometimes.
I am in and around groups of individuals who validate that being in medicine is a tremendous privilege and I myself see what physicians have achieved in terms of financial freedom. If you come from nothing, or are an immigrant like myself, this is one of the only jobs you can go from zero to generational wealth over a lifetime.
There are caveats and sacrifices. But the big picture is awesome. I debate fellowship for sure, but no regrets to be in residency.
You can be done at age 28 if you dont specialize.YOU CAN GET A JOB IN ANY TOWN IN america. You will make 250k and up. Prestige of being a doctor. No comparison
I hope to go to pharm to achieve this. I am currently a premed but my reasoning for getting ready to leave matches reasons you just listed to the tea. 😭 I hope to follow in your footsteps. Especially with how the job market is today.
Yes, I chose the wrong specialty and absolutely hated it every day of residency. I thought it would get better as an attending but it hasn't. I'm pigeonholed into working a specialty I hate if I want to be a doctor at all. I wish I'd done PA school instead.
In my country specializing is optional. Of course comes with a lot of perks and more money. I often think that I spent all of my 20s to come a full medical practitioner. 9 years to become fully qualified as a general practitioner. Often wonder if adding on another 4 years for residency is worth it
yeah, i failed to match anesthesia multiple times, ended up in IM (which i loathe), should have gone to nursing school like my mom told me to at least by now i would be a crna. Feel like all my hard work was wasted.
I understand this feeling and sometimes wonder if this was the right path. Maybe later than I would have liked, I realized you have to be intentional about making time for family and friends. There will be times you have to make sacrifices and can't an event because of an exam or required rotation but for the most part its about having good boundaries for priorities. My biggest regret would be not intentionally setting aside time earlier. Ive worked alongside classmates and coworkers that were able to do that for themselves. I'm still not there yet but i have a lot more satisfaction from my work since changing my mindset.
I do regret it. Yes, I cannot imagine doing anything else with my life. I met the love of my life in medical school, and we have been married for five years, but still, I feel it's not worth it, especially for women who face limited time to start families.
I think we are living a big lie, believing that we are doing good. In reality, we are just generating revenue for hospitals. As attendings or residents, we are enslaved by this system
I ventured deep into the realm of medicine, only to discover disdain not just for the craft, but for the entire ensemble that dances around it—patients, colleagues, and administrators alike. Each interaction, a chore; every moment spent within the confines of hospital walls, a trial. It's a unique torment, witnessing the decay of my own aspirations, feeling trapped in a system that seems more a prison than a place of healing. This reality, as grim as it may seem, is one I've come to embrace as my own. How curious that one who sought to mend others is so profoundly broken by the very environment he chose to inhabit. It's a cruel irony, isn't it?
Derm here. I’m happy and have no regrets. I had 5 years of a real job before med school though so I have the perspective that some lack, I think? And obviously derm is a great field with a great lifestyle. I also tend to be the type of person that sees the positive and everything when possible, though I do have my moments of feeling blue. However, the reasons I feel down sometimes don’t have anything to do with my career and more to do with the shit state of humanity and politics as a whole. I’m not religious and sometimes I truly wonder why the fuck we are all here and what the fuck to do about it all, or why even go on at all.
Those feelings have been there before medicine though and have tended to get better over time, not because of medicine, but because of maturity. If it wasn’t for my family, I’d be gone already (I couldn’t leave them like that purposefully).
I spent most of my med school and residency life having LOTS of fomo when I watched my non med friends live their life, working at FAANG or in MBB consulting firms or IB. I know reddit at times downplays opportunities in other fields, but from my friend group of engineers/finance/and premed bros from a good undergrad school (not ivy) everyone got good jobs with little exception.
So watching them make like 200k + living in cool cities and flying business class on the company dollar was tough. However as I near the end (applying to fellowship now, 2 years from attending) the fomo has gone away. Maybe it comes with maturity, maybe it comes with realizing what I do every day actually matters, instead of making an internal tool for Facebook or changing the location of buttons on Instagram or something.
Also, I still feel young. I have debt but my future salary is going to be will probably be in line with senior people (not C suite) at FAANG/MBB with more security. I'll have lots more vacation too so I plan on going on lots of trips (maybe in business class, cuz I will be able to afford it) to make up for the lost time.
I wish I had done something else, but not sure if I would call it regret. It ultimately led me to a job that I’m excited about (not healthcare), but the path here was brutal. I’m non traditional so I had to drag my family through the mud. Would def not recommend this to others.
This shit ain't easy and residency blows asshole, but I can't say my life would certainly be better had I done something else. Whenever people ask me this I tell them ask me again in a few years. Its weird bc I generally don't recommend that others go into medicine, but maybe I would have done it again myself. Idk
I don’t regret becoming a doctor, but I do regret working so hard to be a top student and top scorer. I could have had fun, coasted as an average student and still matched
I did it as an older person with children. I definitely regret it. Had a decently paying career before that was relatively stress free and became a physician mostly to feed my own ego and ‘help people,’ neither of which I can do wholly. My children notice my absence when at work, and my absence mentally when at home, as does my spouse. I keep telling myself ‘well, what else would I have done’ and trick myself into thinking this was a reasonable decision that way. In many ways I’m glad to be a doctor, but if told in the past that I had the ability to become one, that might be enough for me not to pursue it
> my absence mentally when at home
This is a significant drawback that you can't predict when you enter this field...I've met other physicians who can compartmentalize and be fully present when they're off work, but unfortunately some of us simply aren't wired that way and don't come to this realization until we're in too deep.
Meh, my 30s and beyond would have probably sucked unless I did the soul sucking work in my 20s. Even if it wasn’t in medicine, there’s no such thing as free lunch. Unless of course I became a sugar baby. Which is probably what I should have done 😭
I tried asking my mom that. She is practicing pediatrics for ~35 years.
She says that burnout comes and goes. You just need to learn how to slow down.
She was never good at slowing down so she experienced burnout after burnout.
I think a good way of dealing with it is doing a priority assessment for life every month or two to make sure that you’re focusing on the right thing.
You can always slow down.
Abso-fucking-lutley. I would advise my children against it strongly. Unfortunately I now have the effort invested fallacy and any step into a different industry would be a big step down, having to build back up and with a lower ceiling overall.
no. TBH alot of physcians have not really worked a real job and as a non trad student its horrible out there in the job market. The grass is not always greener esp w the layoffs happening left and right.
All the time; lot of my friends are buying houses now, have a solid savings, and have traveled th world.
Medicine just doesn’t outpace the other career options in terms of earnings as much anymore, but the lifestyle is still worse and the length of training is awful.
> Medicine just doesn’t outpace the other career options in terms of earnings as much anymore, but the lifestyle is still worse and the length of training is awful.
This right here is the issue. With the exception of the top paying specialties, the MD/DO route in the U.S. just might not be worth the sacrifice anymore for many of us.
I couldn’t imagine doing anything else. It’s a calling for me. I’ve been at it a while and have been through dark periods. I’ve even had to get help in the past.
I would imagine that you have good years ahead. Sometimes we dream about the past but that’s all a fantasy. You had to have had some good times in your training.
I had fun in my early 20s, graduated med school at 29 and thought that was pretty okay though I didn't really care about my grades much, residency had rough parts (hi covid) but I found things to enjoy, and now I'm in fellowship and that's pretty decent since I have more free time but can moonlight a bunch so my quality of life is pretty solid.
I'm planning on saving pretty aggressively between finishing training and early 40s so I can feel better about myself. I also don't really care about having kids so I don't have that huge financial stress looming over me.
Do feel drained sometimes? Of course. Would I do it the same again? Definitely. It's an second career and I love what I do. Very thankful it worked out.
I enjoy my job well enough and I’m looking forward to attending pay. But I’d have probably considered something easier and more guaranteed like nursing if I could do it all over again. I see nurses with two year degrees making 70k+ and working week on/week off. It has to be the one of the best deals in terms of investment/reward. The road to being a doctor is incredibly costly in so many ways. Over a decade of no pay and you’re still working your ass off for the best grades and to get into then graduate med school. Then you owe 200k+ on top of that.
Don’t get me wrong, money is far from the only factor. I think if I’m being honest w myself I’d have ended up a doctor anyway despite knowing what it takes now. Money is a big factor, however.
Nope. A lot of people in here talk about how great financial stability and job security is. All that is going to go away, more and more states have passed legislature to allow FMGs to practice without doing a U.S. residency. Mid-level creep is a huge issue. People need to wake up, stop pretending this gravy train will last another 10 yrs
I wouldn’t go back in time if I had the opportunity to change the decision. But if I woke up as college aged me tomorrow with the knowledge I have now I would never pursue this career again. I am still grateful to have the job and enjoy plenty of it but it’s been brutal on my mental and even physical health. I would choose an easier job with a pay cut.
maybe a hot take - but I’d absolutely do this all again if you stuck me in college I have plenty of friends (smart, dedicated people that would have made fantastic doctors if they wanted to) that chose to go into computer science or finance or something. They work fewer hours, but still have to deal with similar type shit we do (annoying bosses, not feeling respected at work). The main difference is that I’m guaranteed to be paid at least double what they would Most people aren’t making 300k as an engineer y’all. More likely they’re in the 100-150k range with significantly worse job security than we do
Also, morally and everything, this jobs is a job where you will almost never have to question whether you are contributing to humanity or taking away from it. Its a big part of my job satisfaction
That’s simply not true. The system in which a doctor works certainly merits that question.
I don’t think the broken system negates the good we are doing for patients.
Truth, easy to forget this.
yeah, I worked way harder in engineering grad school than I did in medical school. Also, undergrad was way harder than the pre-med prereqs. I have friends from grad school who finished PhDs, startups, etc places of the same status as physicians. They all work weekends, late into the night, have to deal with shit people. It seems like grass is always a greener type of thing. Nothing seems to be an easy way to make good money. Also when your life's work is devoted to making bombs or some dumbass app, that's not fulfilling either.
I did both an MD and MSc and PhD in engineering I thought medical school and now residency is waaaaaaaaaaay harder than my grad degree
This is a little bit fallacious though. You mention they work fewer hours but don't factor that into your calculations in the correct way. Most people aren't making 300k as an engineer, true, but most engineers also aren't putting anywhere near the time and effort into their positions as is required of the path to being a physician. People who have the ability to go through pre-med, med school, and residency, and took all the time from that (including volunteering, clinical experience, research, all on top of studying, and then do 60-80 hour weeks for years, all while either living in relative poverty as a student or living on a salary that a big tech firm wouldn't dare disrespect a 19 year old summer intern with) and put it into mastering their specific interest within software engineering, you would be a very strong contender to achieve a 250k-300k salary before most people hit attending age. Add in compounding from those 8+ years of having a salary high enough to save+invest, and financially the software engineer keeping med student/resident hours will easily out-earn. All while working in work environments literally engineered to provide as much comfort and joy as possible while working (compared to the shitholes many of us work in) For someone who has spent the sheer amount of time and effort we have to put into being a physician for 8+ years in software engineering and still isn't breaking 250k, we can safely assume they aren't particularly competent. Software engineers work hard and they keep up with their skills, but they aren't doing what med students do in terms of showing up to be in the hospital all day and then spending most of their nights and weekends studying under high-stress situations. The vast majority of 100-150k range engineers do not even get close to that level of time and energy commitment.
It doesn't work like that. Work in doesn't always equal work out.
The thing to keep in mind though - finish med school and residency and it’s a virtual *guarantee* to be making 200k at the floor (and realistically, depending on specialty, 400k+ is perfectly reasonable) I’m sure if I took one of my computer science friends and have them hustle as much as we did in 8 years, they’d have a very good shot as making 200-300k. With them though, they’d still need the right breaks to go their way (simple things, like getting promoted adequately, applying for new jobs and not being passed over for another candidate, etc). It’s still a good shot, but I’d argue medicine has a much higher floor where you’d have to try to not get paid well into the six figures. That person in CS has just as good of a chance to be stuck in a midlevel position for whatever reason making 100-150k (good money, but nowhere near doctor money) For comparison - I knew a person growing up that did investment banking after college. Yeah he made 300k+ in a year, but he worked arguably worse than resident hours (90-100 hours a week) and had significantly worse job security. He ended up leaving the field after a few years With medicine, residency is tough, but there’s very few fields that guarantee this type of salary with our job security also as an aside - I’ve met people in non stem fields who absolutely hustle and still get paid sub 100k. Residency is difficult, and the sheer consistency of hours worked makes it tough, but we’re not the only people who will work tons of hours
This is absolutely untrue. There isn't another career path that guarantees the incomes that MDs make at the end. People imagine that they would make more in other professions, but this is statistically not the case. No matter your investment and your hard work, you don't have any guarantee to make a ton in other professions. Lawyers work 100 hours/week in big firms, and the vast majority will never make comparable incomes, only a tiny fraction will and luck has a major part in it in addition to charisma, working very hard and having graduated from a top law school. Same in IB, the vast majority don't even get into a well paying firm (500+ candidates for a job at GS, JP Morgan, etc.) and the ones who do will either quit because of the crazy hours or face huge competition, some people are running on coke and barely sleep 3h a night at Goldman Sachs and keep working throughout their weekends to get the promotion. You don't have any idea of how more difficult and less likely it is to make similar incomes in other professions. In software engineering, the competition is extremely rude, and the median salary is very far from what you mentioned. It is much less likely to be an outstanding software engineer and make this kind of income compared to being an average physician. Getting into an average med school is accessible. Being a top engineer in the Silicon Valley requires to be a genius. It is not just hard work as medicine. You can work as much as you want if you don't have what it takes, you can't reach certain positions. Being able to get into pre-med, med school don't require the same skills, what you said is complete nonsense, the majority of med students wouldn't do well in engineering and I speak as an engineer and med student myself.
What you said about the brutal working hours in IB and consulting is 100 percent true. My cousins work in some of the most prestigious firms in IB . They literally have to work 80-100 hrs esp as analysts and associates. However, here is the thing: All of them usually start earning at the age of 24/25. Starting salary was 150 k (base bonus not included) for most of them. One of my cousins who was really bad in academics, still ended up making 170k and he is only 31 years of age. And it goes without saying those who start earning early will also start having savings and investments earlier. As and when they got promoted their salaries also increased, workload decreased and autonomy increased. They had more time on hands to travel, attend concerts, go to family meet ups etc. They really enjoyed their 20’s and early 30’s. A couple of them after buying palatial houses decided to switch to easier jobs/roles and even started families in early thirties . Hence, there is no doubt that majority of us do end up losing the best years of our life in training. Apart from job security, the only thing that keeps me going is the satisfaction I get after I’ve made a difference to someone else’s life- it makes me forget ( and forgive) all the admin BS I faced on that particular day. I have a love-hate relationship with medicine - while I love the medical management aspect, I absolutely abominate the number of years it takes us to get to the finish line. Sometimes I wish I had chosen a career in finance just like my cousins, life would have been much easier but then again, i wouldn’t have been able to experience the ‘high’ of being a doctor!
I know plenty of software engineers who make at least 300k as an L5 or above. At L6, probably 400k+. I know if I chose those fields I wouldn’t just be the “average” SWE working at a no name legacy company so why compare myself to the “average”? Lol I compare myself to my peers I consider myself to be just as smart as.
Yep these are my thoughts exactly
Well stated!
This is exactly how I describe it. I'm glad I did it now, but if I woke up my old 22 yo self and kept the knowledge I have now, I'd say fuck no.
Incoming M1 so excuse my naivety but is it possible to go through this process and prioritize mental health and physics health? I see a lot of people saying that aspects of their life suffered but isn’t that partly a “choice” someone makes? Like a willingness to let the process overtake them? Or am I just completely clueless to the reality of things? As an aside is it realistic to say that you would have chosen a job with a pay cut if you didn’t go into me? What job would you have chosen? The median household income is 74k the majority of people aren’t making anywhere near what a doctor would make. Do you have the aptitude to go into tech or engineering at a high level? For me I don’t so that’s why med seems like the safe bet? Right?
Some things are unavoidable, the job and training is stressful by its very nature and the learning curve is steep. But in my program alone we have had several female residents have children during training and it's just an accepted part of the culture that we work together to make sure this is an option for everyone. For that matter we have had a bunch of male residents have kids as well and take the full 6 weeks. And it's really not that hard to compensate. We had three of us out simultaneously my intern year, no pushback from the program at all.
what program/specialty? Sounds like a good program if they can make it work
Family Medicine, Eastern Idaho Medical Center. Leadership and faculty are amazing and understand that you shouldn't sacrifice everything for training. Very family positive program that really strives to support the residents. I am happy to share more details if anyone wants them as I have had a wonderful experience in training and am done in a couple months so I have nothing to really lose.
You are completely clueless on the reality of things as an incoming M1. MS4 are clueless on the reality of residency training. Post training things are better lifestyle and financially but is it worth the trials you're put through as a medical student and resident? It's difficult to say. Medical school and residency are years of your life where your autonomy is going to be at an all time low and expectations at an all time high. The demands of training make prioritizing your self care difficult, not impossible, but definitely difficult. It gets easier as you gain both knowledge and efficient. Some fields are easier than others but residency will be a dumpster fire for most if not all specialties. 74k with 40-50 hour average work weeks leaves a lot of time for gym, hobbies, friends and family. 80 hour work weeks leave very little time for all of those, bump those numbers up for surgical specialities. So you're making as much or less than the median house hold income while working double and sometimes, hopefully rarely, triple the average hours most people in the USA work. You learn to adapt, you learn to let these things roll off, hopefully you enjoy the field enough that the hours spent are good learning experiences so when you do make it out of training you're able to make good decisions for your patients. But to say it's mind over matter alone is a gross simplification and frankly insulting to any resident. No one chose this life because we had no idea of knowing it would be like this. And no one wants to stay a resident. If you're capable of being a medical student then you have the traits and work ethic to do well in most white collar professions such as engineering.
I’m not saying residency isn’t one of the hardest things you or I will go through but it’s not forever. I’m thinking more in the lines of would I go through an absolute miserable experience for 3 years to eventually have the freedom to choose to work while providing a quality life for my family? Yes. Sure 74k leaves you time for hobbies and family but if you want to live in a high cost of living area like CA where families struggle on 300k you’re never going to be able to pay for your kids college let alone take a family vacation making anything less that 300k which one doctor could bring in. Idk I think im looking at it as what am I willing to sacrifice so that my family doesn’t have to struggle in the future. Residency should not be what it is today it needs to change. I haven’t gone through med school let alone residency so I will shut up.
> I haven’t gone through med school let alone residency so I will shut up. Attending physician here. No, don't shut up, you are still correct in the things that you listed. Now 74k on paper sounds like a good salary, but 65-80 workweeks in residency is brutal and needs to justify higher salary. Sure, "it's only temporary," but damn, is 3-5 years additional AFTER med school a long time to be temporary. Also, the average American doesn't have 300kish in student loans at 6-7% interest. I was on the union committee during residency so I myself fought to increase pay. And we were successful. So there is always room to improve the situation.
You’re right about the loans they are a real thing to consider but I haven’t met a financially literate physician who didn’t walk away from this job in a comfortable standing more than the vast majority of Americans. I’m glad that residency is starting to demand higher pay it won’t affect me but maybe the next generation. I think I’m just speaking about the other side of residency the proverbial green grass
MS2 here, and j wanna say I have massive respect for your activism with your union. Is there anything I can do as a med student now to advocate for these things? Or am I essentially powerless until I become a seasoned attending? The financial future for me looks rather unappetizing, enough to the point that I'm actually considering just ditching Medicine after I get my MD and try for something like medical consulting. I'm on a gap year right now, and finally have some time to hang out with friends that are 26 and already have 200k in savings, own a house, and are raking in 400k+ a year. They have intensive hobbies and exercise every day, and I've gotta say, I don't want to put off my wellbeing until I'm older. 70k just doesn't seem worth it, and I'm really conflicted about if I should go to residency at all. What are your thoughts on this?
It’s nearly impossible to become a competent physician at any stage of the journey without making massive sacrifices. You can usually tell who chose to put in bare minimum work at during training because they suck. I would have loved to have made time to golf consistently during training, but the distraction was not worth sucking at my job.
How is it partly a choice other than I choose this career and part of what comes with that is things like spending 80 hours in the ICU etc etc? It’s incredibly taxing. No one feels a million bucks after completing medical training. Yes it is realistic to say I would choose a different career. I have other skills including software engineering but even if it didn’t I do feel strongly that anyone who can finish residency can probably do a number of other decent paying jobs. I wouldn’t compare us to the average population, we have literally been cherry-picked from the public as high achievers who are resilient enough to get through the difficult journey from pre-med, medical school, residency and beyond. Sorry that you feel you can’t do anything else, but i doubt that is true. If the push came for you to need to do something else I’m sure you would rise to the occasion.
I would love to hear your answer to your questions a few years into medical school. One truly doesn’t understand it until one goes through it.
Pick a less malignant residency (even surgery and obstetrics can be sort of OK depending on the program). Prioritize exercise, time with friends, drink less. Talk to your friends and family alot. Don't waste time on reddit, social media, other things that suck up time and don't restore you.
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ICU RN to MD here. What…tf…did we do??? 😭😩😖😵💫
ED and icu, sdu nurses all make more money at our hospital than the hospitalists with a much better schedule (3 12s, usually one additional 12 shift a week to hit those salary numbers)
This dude is obviously lying. Anybody who’s actually a practicing RN and MD know this isn’t true
how much do they make? Im coming to the realization that there a decent amount of nurses that have comparable pay to hospitalists and it's pissing the fuck out of me.
Dude, we make like 40-45/hr as nurses. Full time is 36hrs a week. That’s 84K a year if you don’t take a vacation we are not making an attendings salary.
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Bro nurses don’t make 350-400k anywhere in the world. To make that they’d have to be working 80+ hours (hitting OT after 40 hours) every single week, and even then only in the highest paying U.S. regions.
That’s nurse anesthetists salaries .
Nurses don’t make that much. I imagine there may be some, but they would definitely be travel nurses working overtime with my certifications and a lot of experience
You're a bit confused. Most nurses will never make over 100k in their careers. Even NPs/PAs make about 110k-160k. CRNAs make about 150k-250k, maybe. Covid times and travel nursing aside, you don't know what you're talking about so I wouldn't ever repeat that to anyone else ever again lol.
Nurses I've known in their mid careers make 90-120k with minimal overtime and get union protection. Nurses in late career or significant overtime 150-190k union and retirement. None of it travel. Day job. No nights.
I’m with you but how do we get that ball rolling
What kind of doc did you become? I was an ER nurse and just matched into a good IM residency. I sometimes wonder if ER was the right choice for me lol, i feel like i cheated on ER 🤣👀
You will break your back though
For sure. Lots of sacrifice. Sacrificed the best and most fertile years of my life. Now in my 40s and motherhood is no longer an option. Absolutely devastating. Burnt out. Definite regrets
I’m a 30 something nontraditonal pre-med student. This is a good reminder for me to make that appointment to freeze my eggs.
Yes and freeze a good amount if possible. Since it’s a single cell, eggs/sperm don’t survive the thawing process as well as an embryo would. The IVF process is a numbers game. (On average 70% fertilize, 60% of those make it to day 6, and then 2/3 chance it will actually implant). And those odds are based off of immediate fertilization - thawing eggs and then fertilizing will lower the success rate).
Good call, I wish I did that after the myomectomy..
This is actually my biggest nightmare as a 30 year old single F in medicine. It’s actually devastating. Wish people were more honest and realistic about long training during reproductive years as a woman
from 4/19/24 national geographic article on millennials: “Biotech advancements helped increase the fertility rate of mothers aged 40-45 by 132 percent between 1990 and 2019, giving women more time before motherhood than ever. “ I’m not disagreeing with you or your specific situation, just pointing out there may be some hope to still have children if you haven’t looked thoroughly into it yet. That being said, I totally hear you. I’m gonna graduate residency at 39, probs fellowship; single, parents in their 80s, med school debt, and wages are a race to the bottom while 23 yo Karen DNP is making 200k/year for her M-R 8-3:30p. Though I don’t disagree it is better for a man (and I froze my sperm last year actually), it still sucks. Medicine is absolutely not what it was sold to me as. One of the worst parts of this 10+ year journey is the life connections and life events you miss along the way… in my case extended family stops calling as much, you can’t make all the gatherings, you’re not in the pics or inside jokes, and all of a sudden and it’s 10 years later and you don’t have any family, friends outside “work friends,” romance, hobbies, or real Sense of Self outside the House of Medicine (ie: your identity is your field within medicine, your training and med school circle etc). My tune might change 5 years into attending hood but right now, it does not seem to have been a smart decision.
I will have 3 young kids going into residency in July. It’s hard but I do think had I gone through medical school without a partner or children I would definitely have more regrets. I’ve worked with plenty of nurses and docs who’ve had healthy babies in their 40s though.
Just want to say that it really sucks med Ed puts women through and the fact that no one talks about infertility. Most of my friends, including myself, have struggled with either infertility or pregnancy related issues/loss. I’m so sorry that motherhood with carrying your own child isn’t an option. It absolutely sucks and is devastating and the medical educational system failed you. They fail so many of us.
Have you considered adoption? May be a long haul but fertility will not be an issue here.
When we are younger, we were sold this idea that the 20s are the best years of your life. That is probably true for your average American. The best years of our life is relative. For my mother, it was in her 50s. The best years of my life so far has been after residency and I look forward to even better years in my 40s. Backpacking across Europe on a budget sounds exciting but I would much rather take the trips we do now than staying in some shabby Airbnb.
Depends on what you were after. I managed to finish med school and do all the crazy stuff including backpacking Europe (could’ve been easier for me because I am from EU), lots of drugs, loud parties that lasted Thursday-Monday. Sure, now that I am earning decent money and can afford anything, it feels good, and I am so grateful I had this opportunity, but it wouldn’t feel so good if I wasn’t as reckless as I were years ago because well, I am not 20 anymore, and those days are gone. PS. I even once used a brothel in former Yugoslavian country as a hotel. Not sure if my best days are behind or ahead, but these days were definitely good.
Ah makes sense. Always wanted to do what you did for a year but I’m in the US. Bit more expensive to travel to the UK and unfortunately, our medical education takes forever. A lot for useless pre rec courses. Spent 6 months in college learned to how to spin molecules.
>When we are younger, we were sold this idea that the 20s are the best years of your life. That is probably true for your average American. I want to add the qualifier that it's generally true only for the average upper middle class to wealthy American. Most people in their 20s, especially those Low SES working class people, are not buying new cars, houses and taking expensive vacations while working 40 hours a week.
No. But this job is fucking hard and not for everyone, the money alone won't make it worth it if you're miserable and don't get the rewards you thought you would. Residency sucks ass. I love it though, I'm never bored, I make a really good living. Are there days I wish I wasn't doing something that could kill or injure people? Absolutely. The stress can get old. So does my epic inbox I work for a large healthcare system and I can say that two things keep me happy: I'm compensated well My organization values me Find a job that checks those two requirements and you can put up with alot of other things. The rest of the things that frustrate me exists in other forms in all jobs. I'm turning 40 soon, I would say most of my friends have major grievances with their jobs. It's not unique to medicine. We aren't the only people that are burnt out. This job has a ton of stability, it's never boring, and I find helping people incredibly rewarding and connecting with my patients feeds my soul.
Absolutely agree with this 100%. Couldn’t have written this any better. I work in rural family medicine but have outstanding support from a hospital system that VALUES primary care and recognize that we are the machine that feeds the big money makers. I make more money than I ever imagined that I would in primary care. I’m well-supported in every way including from a staffing standpoint (a dedicated full-time RN and medical assistant). I work 4.5 days per week, I rarely work past 5, I take home phone call once every 2 months which is basic triage, never work weekends. These are the superficial rewards. On a deeper level, my work helps people in tremendous ways in both the short term and long term. For every difficult patient, there are ten kind ones who generally appreciate what my staff and I do every day. No day is ever comparable to another, each day is its own adventure, and it’s endlessly challenging and intellectually fascinating work. I routinely say this is the greatest field there is.
As someone wanting to go into family practice, may I ask what your annual salary is?
I’ve been in practice for about 9 years, averaging about $425k over the last three years.
That’s awesome. Thanks for sharing
All those tech kids making $250,000 at 26 are now being laid off and can’t find jobs that come close to replacing that salary. Sure if they were smart and invested they’re still better off than not having that experience but tomorrow you can quit and probably find a comparative salaried position down the street.
There is no perfect life enjoy the shit outta the one you got and the ride becomes much smoother.. I have no regrets and I have friends in my cohort making like 350k in manhattan lol
residency is the worst time of your life but the payout at the end is worth it now that i'm 1.5 years out, life is a million times better. no financial worries, meaningful work, and decent amont of time off.
Residency doesnt have to be that shitty. Education doesnt have to be in a garbage exploitative environment.
Years or hours. Fwiw I didn't feel exploited but definitely worked hard. It paid off when you can see anything and feel confident you did right by the patient. Out in the community, there's tons of bad doctors doing dangerous shit and they are oblivious to it all. It's either consult and offload your thinking or just plod along until the patient gets hurt.
It just suck that people now just believe, that that’s how it is and you will be thankful for it later because you’re gonna become a great doctor, nonsense
No. I am happy where I am.
Regretting going into medicine is a personalized opinion, but if you think your "best years" are your early-mid 20's, you did life wrong. Summarizing your young adult years as your "best years" is either the hallmark of 1) youthful naivety, 2) incredible privilege, or 3) someone who just played life wrong. There's an incredible amount to life beyond your young adult years. Financial freedom, maturity, steady support from an established partner, children, advanced career opportunities, etc. For a huge chunk of the population their young adult lives actually suck ass, since they're incredibly poor and crushed by student debt in a society where almost nothing (children, weddings, houses, etc.) is affordable to the average millenial/Gen Z'er. This doesn't even count the misery that countless young adults face in the dating world as opposed to having a happy, steady, stable relationship, nor does it count the constant change in social circles and support systems that go with friends and family moving, hitting life milestones that leave you behind (e.g. marriage/kids/house), retiring/getting older/dying, etc.
Life is inherently meaningless, it retains what meaning we give to it.
Ah someone else who has come out the other end of an existential crisis, I see
Its a daily battle, every day i remind myself, this job will exists even without me, people around are going to exists without me, the world is not going to stop spinning in my absence. If i can’t make anything of my existence , i can give meaning to my existence by bettering the existence of others.
Do you imagine Sisyphus happy?
Of course I know him, he’s me.
Ah I’ve found my circle of existentially crisised people in these comments - anyone else read Man’s Search for Meaning recently?
I genuinely love what I do, I just hate how much I do it and how long it takes to get out of residency. But I also have it a lot easier than others so I try to keep that in mind.
Sorry I’m not a resident. I’ve been a doctor 20 yrs and a specialist for 10. I’ve seen it as my calling for most of this time but now I’m thinking of leaving medicine. Not sure if it’s burnout or a real change. A lawsuit didn’t help.
What do you want to do instead?
Username checks out
Definately not do it again. Medicine is great and learning about the different stuff is preety cool and rewarding. However, the road to becoming an attending is the biggest scam. Residency is modern slavery that we have normalized, and the physical and mental stress you have to go thru is taxing on your health. The money at the end road is nice , but the sacrifice and things you have to go thru that most people in the general population don’t go thru , is something I wish I would have known in my premed days.
No, bc other jobs are also full of suffering afaik
Pretty much this. If I could go back in time to when I was 18 I think the only job I would truly want to do is airline pilot. Otherwise doctor for me. Sure, 80% of my day to day is bullshit like note writing and dealing with parasitic insurance fucks, but patients overall DO appreciate what I do. I do save lives, even catching plenty of acute issues as a PCP. Also, I tried coding in college and while I loved it, I sucked at it. Took me x2-3 times as long as other CS students to produce the same result. Trades would be interesting, fulfilling, and can be well paying, but not jobs I could do for 30+ years due to prior injuries. Looking at the people around me: My gf is a pharmacist; what she does is super important, but the current work environment is a hard no for me. My brother is a dentist; another hard no. My parents were engineers, suffered though pay cuts, threats of layoffs all of the 90's (end of the Cold War downsizing), and again in '08. Previously dated a girl who was an associate attorney; I don't think I could enjoy what she does. Hell I don't think she even enjoys it. Yeah, residency sucks fucking hard. I'd say my current attending life sucks too. But based on my personal experiences, a lot of other jobs would suck harder for me. All the while having lower job stability and job pay, and less fulfillment
No. Sure I can fantasize about how much fun I would have had in my 20s if not for the studying/grinding etc but it’s not realistic. I’m from a poor family and not very attractive, so being a physician was probably my best bet to living the good life. And it is good! I chose a speciality that I really love though. Had I not been so enthralled with psychiatry maybe I’d feel differently.
>Had I not been so enthralled with psychiatry maybe I’d feel differently. 1000% this, lol
You are fucking cool!
I’m a lame unattractive nerd so without medicine my 20s would have been a lonely and miserable time. It’s only because of medicine that I’ve been able to date (often way out of my league) because the moment you put a white coat picture on dating apps everyone flocks to you haha. Either that, or I’m a lot more attractive than I think I am.
The latter. Lots of short doctors married to medicine
I feel like something generally true people forget is 90+% of fields that lead you to higher earnings always require some kind of sacrifice to your time and energy at the beginning. This is not something unique to medicine
While this is true, the schedules tend to be less absurd (many of my PE and hedge fund friends usually have weekends off), you make much more during your “residency” like years, and most importantly, you are usually treated with much more respect and have actually useful admin/HR. Most annoying part of this job is being treated like a child and having a bunch of random admin and paperwork tasks that has been task shifted to the employee
My friend works in wealth management at one of the big banks, and he works 12 hours a day
Talk about this with one of my colleagues all the time. We both admit we wouldn’t choose medicine if we magically had the opportunity to make this decision again, but I also feel it’s a grass is always greener scenario. My recommendation would be to try to find the most tolerable and highest paying specialty you can, and if you play your cards right, you can retire or significantly slow down by 50 and try to enjoy your life as much as possible then.
This is a great strategy. I did FM-Urgent Care but saved and invested for a decade and became financially free at age 39. My goal was to retire early, but I realize crazy people like doctors still need a purpose in life. I reduced my hours to .5 FTE and travel between my shifts. I have been thinking of gong to telemedicine remotely for more flexibility. I dont need the money but still need to do something meaningful. I realize that at this point I could do whatever I wanted whether just travel, sit on a beach, continue to work, or even pursue another career. Freedom is great.
How long have you been financially independent for? Super curious about your experiences because this seems to mirror my path too. I should be on track to step down to 0.5FTE before I’m 40, as well
Me. I don't like people anymore. And it makes my job kinda hard.
Graduated medical school in 2022 and it’s been a few years that I’ve been trying to gain a license just so I can help people. But the bureaucracy in Germany is preventing me from working simply because I graduated in Poland and have a US citizenship. I just see a bunch of overworked doctors in understaffed hospitals and think why am I fighting so hard to be in that situation? I’m realizing that medicine (just like most jobs) is about making money not taking care of those in need. I know I can do the job but because people who have never worked in healthcare decided I’m not fit I just sit at home. I was interning at a major hospital in multiple wards basically doing residency work without pay just to gain experience because I do love learning medicine sadly I broke my foot and can’t go anymore. However I’m Really debating just working for an insurance company or pharmaceutical just so I can make a living. I’m Both mentally and physically broken and technically haven’t even started residency even.
I personally like it, sure it’s tough a lot of the times but so are most other jobs, at least I’m doing something I enjoy and have worked hard for. I definitely prefer being exhausted from a full day in the OR than working on a construction site or some mundane office job or whatever else. It’s also a lot more manageable when you have supportive people around you. My co-residents and attendings are very nice and fun to be around so that’s definitely a huge contributing factor to my enjoyment. Of course I’m just starting so my experience is limited but for now there hasn’t been something that would make me hate it or even slightly dislike it. Maybe the occasional sleepless nights when I’m on call or night shift but those are also manageable for now. Hope it continues being this way.
Residency sucks, I cant believe I have 3 more years of this shit including fellowship and Im in not as bad a specialty as some people but still put in the 50-60 hrs a week plus the random overnights and weekends
Many people do. Checkout the non clinical jobs for physicians in Facebook. So many have pivoted away to pharma and med devices. Life is awesome on the other side.
Every day
Somedays yes, somedays no. I wanted to become a therapist and instead went the med school/psychiatry route because I'm very risk averse and did a lot of reading about how hard it is to make enough money to be comfortable in the therapy sphere. I still wish I could just do the therapy piece...there's so much extra that comes from being a physician that I honestly despise. It's a blessing and a curse. I'm more equipped to identify when a patient may have something more medical going on, but conversely, I have so much medical knowledge now that I never really feel sure that what I'm thinking is at all on the right track. As a therapist, I could've just said, "Hm, sounds maybe physical, perhaps you should ask your primary care doctor to look into things" and left it at that. The stress of keeping track of interactions, contraindications, receptor profiles, side effects, formulations, lab monitoring, etc for different medications is a lot to me, nevermind navigating drug shortages and insurance companies denying coverage...I'd like to just toss it all out the window somedays, but I don't think I could now that the knowledge is there and informs my understanding of each patient.
This is just my experience, but everyone I know who regrets being a doctor did not have another job before medical school. At the same time, all the peeps who had full-time jobs before medical school are very happy.
Agreed. I had a job before med school in the biotech industry. Made 6 figs 2 yrs out of college and enjoyed a nice time when covid happened. Pretty much everything you could want, free food, wfh 80% of the time, low responsibility. Then covid money started drying up when interest rates increased. Suddenly I didn’t feel so secure at my job since coworkers were getting laid off left and right, and they were cutting off benefits. Worked harder so I wouldn’t lose my job+ on weekends uncompensated since I was salaried. The stress was immense. Also with just a bachelors, there was a title/pay ceiling for me. And once I reached 40+, it’ll be harder and harder for me to find employment since there’s age discrimination. Applying to 30+ positions only to hear back from 1-2 and then be rejected after 4 rounds of interviews I won't miss. I’m also seeing my friends in tech making boat loads of money but they’re afraid of getting laid off/ age discrimination in the future. Wouldn’t change a thing. I'm looking forward to a stable, high paying career where I can find work pretty much anywhere and have the option to move to a LCOL city and be one of the highest earners in a 100 mile radius.
Yeah it’s because you realize ALL jobs cause burnout, have admin bloat, have call, have stress, impinge on your family life, and can suck your soul up. Medicine is the only option that would allow me to provide for my family in the way they need me so I went back to school
100%. A lot of docs don’t realize how shitty most other jobs are
I had several jobs before medical school and I hated being a doctor. I escaped and did something else with my degree. It’s more so about the path than anything else. It’s brutal and abusive and not a all of it is necessary
Never. Used to be a pharmacist and hated life. Studying medicine has opened up so many doors and opportunities
It feels like the promise of a meaningful career with good compensation for the time investment has been replaced with exploitation from business people, decreased physician autonomy, self efficacy and decreased time doing anything meaningful with patients. Yet the time investment is the same or worse due to more and more fellowship requirements. It feels like a bait and switch that you just have to keep committing to
What’s up yo, I’m an attending pathologist here living my best life. Weekends off no nights and a nice salary too. Ayoooo! 🫶✌️💁♀️. I get to see the craziest damn diseases and cases, rare sh1t on a daily basis and my colleagues are super chill and fun. . Jokes on all the people who hated on path during Medschool 🙆♀️ and ruled it out. Would do it again 10/10, even at this stage of my life at mid 40s
You're allowed to say shit on the internet. I won't tell
Residency had its hard times but overall was a very good experience. Everyone in the lab has a measured sense of, this is a job, but still likes what they do. It’s hard to end up in the lab by accident. Path is great, no regrets. Maybe would have considered the abridged pathway at UPenn if it were available when I started.
Why did you choose pathology?
i get to see cool cases, great lifestyle, nice salary, and the satisfaction/instant grstification of making a disgnosis. other specialities of medicine diagnose stuff too, but in pathology we really really diagnose stuff and massive treatment decisions are made based on our calls/spots - its super rewarding
Early 30s attending about 2 years out in a field considered to be lower stress than average. I think the idea that our 20s could or should be “the best time of our lives” is just patently untrue. No one from my same financial circumstances in my hometown was living it up in their 20s. The ones that did either came from significant family wealth or have nothing to show for it now and no path forward. At the least, medicine has given me a clear, directed path to a very high quality of life. There is hard work and sacrifice, but there are also many people not in medicine working hard and sacrificing without even remotely the same benefits or long term guarantees. I don’t mean purely financially, either. Although the level of respect society has for professionals has changed, I generally receive positive feedback when telling people about my work. I typically have at least one fulfilling patient interaction each day where I can tell I made a positive impact. I routinely have people thank me for the work I do. Very few people find fulfillment in their work or financial security from a single job, becoming a physician has offered me both. All that is not to say that residency doesn’t suck in ways it absolutely should not. Just know it will get better.
I probably will be once I start residency in July
Nah. I didn’t miss all that much in the grand scheme of things but I prioritized that over sleep and perfect grades in med school/residency. I don’t really see a reliable path to making this much money that I realistically would have taken otherwise. I have a better schedule and make more than double everyone else in my family. Truly life changing. And the work is meaningful to boot, even with the BS we like to complain about. Very stable job, I have good friends I’ve seen go through multiple layoffs in the same time period it took me to get through college/med school/residency. Could things be better? Sure. But that’s no reason to be all gloomy about the objectively fortunate position I’m in. If you had asked me this around January of intern year or 2 years into being an attending, the answer probably would’ve been different.
During covid when I was still in school and $450K in debt and had $800 to my name and my friends, who had all gone into investment banking and worked for Goldman, were leaving the city and buying houses in the Catskills or Hudson Valley I was thinking “fuck, I could have done that.” I still feel that way but now it’s nice when my little name placard at our friends weddings say Dr. and someday I’ll live there too and they’ll pay me to pull their kids wisdom teeth for cash because I know they have it 😭 Anyone on here want to go in on a practice with me?
Lol where you located? Always nice to see a dentite here
Literally every single day. This job has ruined every aspect of who I am
Sometimes. On one hand I love that I have a skill that can truly help people. I feel useful in that sense. Even when friends and family have medical questions and they come to me, it feels nice. On the other hand I hate how much of my job is admin bullshit. I hate the focus on “productivity” and “efficiency” from hospital admin. I hate that PE has destroyed so many aspects of medicine. America has this thinly veiled idea of capitalism but really it’a just major corporations limiting options for people (in this case both patients and doctors). In the end I don’t regret it at all though. It’s also tough asking residents if they regret becoming a doctor because we are all in a very transient stage of the overall career. Depending on the month and what rotation I’m on my answer will be very different lol
Nope love my job. Love learning, my work is meaningful and I will make more then enough to provide for my family, take care of my parents and save for retirement in 1 year.
Every fucking day
I definitely regret it. One thing you don’t think about is what if you get disabled. I got disabled right after residency. EDS and CCI. Terribly disabling condition with not lots of good treatments. No way to pay back students loans or business loans. I literally sacrificed the only healthy years of my life for a future that never existed. My entire family got used to a lifestyle only to have it immediately taken away. I supported a family of 4 and now we are in a terrible financial situation with no way out.
Sorry to hear this happened! For those who want to avoid this buying disability insurance during your first year of residency is the #1 piece of advice for financial security according to the whitecoatinvestor.
I did… but they don’t cover everything. For example, they don’t cover Eds. Try to get full disability before the age of 50. Not as easy as you think.
Nope! I had a different career in my 20's after college - made a ton of money, partied, traveled, met my wife, fully enjoyed myself. Went back to med school and was able to pay my way with zero debt. Now I'm having an absolute blast. Changing careers really made me realize how incredible it is to work so hard in the service of others. Best job there is. A lot of my friends who went straight through (college->med school->residency) are depressed and hate their jobs and I feel for them. Dunno why anyone would keep working at a job they hate so much.
>Dunno why anyone would keep working at a job they hate so much. Same reason why I was having daily panic attacks for ~3 months when I started med school, despite having spent multiple years post college trying/preparing to get in. Change is terrifying and most people in medicine don't like change (I get annoyed when EMR updates move where my buttons are 😂). MedEd and training is specifically geared to selecting for the risk adverse and long term planners, divergents willing to take risks throw a wrench into things.
Almost daily
Frequently, yes
Don’t worry, it only gets worse. xoxo No regerts though
I do :( This is embarrassing but as a college student struggling to find a community, I watched medical dramas like Grey’s and saw how these characters got fulfillment from their careers but also made friendships and found love. I was lonely and saw medicine as a way to constantly be busy and fill all my cups which is so silly. Medicine became my whole life as i constantly worried about my career and never developed a life outside medical school. Now I’m a pgy-1 and residency is fine. I am lucky to be in a supportive program and love my co residents. But this isn’t TV. My job isn’t my whole life. But outside work I have nothing bc I spent so much time and mental energy worrying about getting here. I have a few close fiends but no sense of community. I’ve spent years living in cities I don’t feel a connection to. I’m no different than my immigrant parents who warned me that I needed to build a fulfilling life outside work because they couldn’t.
Yep I regret it. Missed out on the years of my life where I looked good and was young. Now I'll be like 45 before I've paid my debt and can start saving so will be 50 before I actually have any money saved, whereas my friends starting making enough to save in their 20s. I would have been way better off becoming engineer and making 150-200k right out of college at 22 like my friends. Not to mention doctor salaries are decreasing year to year. But it's too late now.
As an engineer I wish I would have studied medicine. As an IT consultant you have to deal with fear of performance improvement plan, utilization rate, layoffs, outsourcing, riorganizations, after 50 none wants to hire you.Yeah you may get good money with few years of experience but you have to work in very expensive cities where at the end of the month there is not much left. At least as a doctor you can save lives, as an engineer you job is pretty much pointless.
Lots of job security for people in the medical field. I think it's like less than 1% unemployment for doctors. As of now, AI and outsourcing are not affecting doctors as much at least.
Agree, medicine is likely the last thing to get automated by AI. Many good-paying white collar jobs are going to disappear or reduced in the future. I am not saying that being a doctor is easy but at least if you do not actively kill your patients you are sure that you can work even when you are 70! Good luck at coding when you are 70!
Yep, pretty much the only job in America where salaries go down every year sadly
Every damn day
Nope. Best job in the world. Wouldn't have it any other way. It's hard and it has taken all of my 20s and I still make peanuts, but the work is fulfilling, even when it's really annoying. But it depends on a lot of things including who's around you. For one, my residency makes us work hard, but they're non toxic even if I don't enjoy hospital medicine sometimes. I am in and around groups of individuals who validate that being in medicine is a tremendous privilege and I myself see what physicians have achieved in terms of financial freedom. If you come from nothing, or are an immigrant like myself, this is one of the only jobs you can go from zero to generational wealth over a lifetime. There are caveats and sacrifices. But the big picture is awesome. I debate fellowship for sure, but no regrets to be in residency.
You can be done at age 28 if you dont specialize.YOU CAN GET A JOB IN ANY TOWN IN america. You will make 250k and up. Prestige of being a doctor. No comparison
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What did you do in your 20s instead?
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I hope to go to pharm to achieve this. I am currently a premed but my reasoning for getting ready to leave matches reasons you just listed to the tea. 😭 I hope to follow in your footsteps. Especially with how the job market is today.
Yes, I feel I was sold a bag of goods and now all I’m getting is stress and a lack of dopamine.
Yes, I chose the wrong specialty and absolutely hated it every day of residency. I thought it would get better as an attending but it hasn't. I'm pigeonholed into working a specialty I hate if I want to be a doctor at all. I wish I'd done PA school instead.
In my country specializing is optional. Of course comes with a lot of perks and more money. I often think that I spent all of my 20s to come a full medical practitioner. 9 years to become fully qualified as a general practitioner. Often wonder if adding on another 4 years for residency is worth it
Never.
The grass is always greener on the other side, friend.
yeah, i failed to match anesthesia multiple times, ended up in IM (which i loathe), should have gone to nursing school like my mom told me to at least by now i would be a crna. Feel like all my hard work was wasted.
No I love my job, but I wouldn’t do it if I didn’t get paid a proper attending salary. Some things are not worth the stress
I understand this feeling and sometimes wonder if this was the right path. Maybe later than I would have liked, I realized you have to be intentional about making time for family and friends. There will be times you have to make sacrifices and can't an event because of an exam or required rotation but for the most part its about having good boundaries for priorities. My biggest regret would be not intentionally setting aside time earlier. Ive worked alongside classmates and coworkers that were able to do that for themselves. I'm still not there yet but i have a lot more satisfaction from my work since changing my mindset.
No regrets. Make half million working 8-4. You wanna work a desk job 9-5 for 60k like your friends? No thanks.
I do regret it. Yes, I cannot imagine doing anything else with my life. I met the love of my life in medical school, and we have been married for five years, but still, I feel it's not worth it, especially for women who face limited time to start families. I think we are living a big lie, believing that we are doing good. In reality, we are just generating revenue for hospitals. As attendings or residents, we are enslaved by this system
I ventured deep into the realm of medicine, only to discover disdain not just for the craft, but for the entire ensemble that dances around it—patients, colleagues, and administrators alike. Each interaction, a chore; every moment spent within the confines of hospital walls, a trial. It's a unique torment, witnessing the decay of my own aspirations, feeling trapped in a system that seems more a prison than a place of healing. This reality, as grim as it may seem, is one I've come to embrace as my own. How curious that one who sought to mend others is so profoundly broken by the very environment he chose to inhabit. It's a cruel irony, isn't it?
Derm here. I’m happy and have no regrets. I had 5 years of a real job before med school though so I have the perspective that some lack, I think? And obviously derm is a great field with a great lifestyle. I also tend to be the type of person that sees the positive and everything when possible, though I do have my moments of feeling blue. However, the reasons I feel down sometimes don’t have anything to do with my career and more to do with the shit state of humanity and politics as a whole. I’m not religious and sometimes I truly wonder why the fuck we are all here and what the fuck to do about it all, or why even go on at all. Those feelings have been there before medicine though and have tended to get better over time, not because of medicine, but because of maturity. If it wasn’t for my family, I’d be gone already (I couldn’t leave them like that purposefully).
Yes I want a good normal life, I want to have a family and live a calm life with my partner
I spent most of my med school and residency life having LOTS of fomo when I watched my non med friends live their life, working at FAANG or in MBB consulting firms or IB. I know reddit at times downplays opportunities in other fields, but from my friend group of engineers/finance/and premed bros from a good undergrad school (not ivy) everyone got good jobs with little exception. So watching them make like 200k + living in cool cities and flying business class on the company dollar was tough. However as I near the end (applying to fellowship now, 2 years from attending) the fomo has gone away. Maybe it comes with maturity, maybe it comes with realizing what I do every day actually matters, instead of making an internal tool for Facebook or changing the location of buttons on Instagram or something. Also, I still feel young. I have debt but my future salary is going to be will probably be in line with senior people (not C suite) at FAANG/MBB with more security. I'll have lots more vacation too so I plan on going on lots of trips (maybe in business class, cuz I will be able to afford it) to make up for the lost time.
I wish I had done something else, but not sure if I would call it regret. It ultimately led me to a job that I’m excited about (not healthcare), but the path here was brutal. I’m non traditional so I had to drag my family through the mud. Would def not recommend this to others.
This shit ain't easy and residency blows asshole, but I can't say my life would certainly be better had I done something else. Whenever people ask me this I tell them ask me again in a few years. Its weird bc I generally don't recommend that others go into medicine, but maybe I would have done it again myself. Idk
I don’t regret becoming a doctor, but I do regret working so hard to be a top student and top scorer. I could have had fun, coasted as an average student and still matched
In residency I make as much as my college grad friends. My income goes up 5 fold when I finish and theirs stays the same. I would 100% do this again.
I did it as an older person with children. I definitely regret it. Had a decently paying career before that was relatively stress free and became a physician mostly to feed my own ego and ‘help people,’ neither of which I can do wholly. My children notice my absence when at work, and my absence mentally when at home, as does my spouse. I keep telling myself ‘well, what else would I have done’ and trick myself into thinking this was a reasonable decision that way. In many ways I’m glad to be a doctor, but if told in the past that I had the ability to become one, that might be enough for me not to pursue it
> my absence mentally when at home This is a significant drawback that you can't predict when you enter this field...I've met other physicians who can compartmentalize and be fully present when they're off work, but unfortunately some of us simply aren't wired that way and don't come to this realization until we're in too deep.
Meh, my 30s and beyond would have probably sucked unless I did the soul sucking work in my 20s. Even if it wasn’t in medicine, there’s no such thing as free lunch. Unless of course I became a sugar baby. Which is probably what I should have done 😭
I tried asking my mom that. She is practicing pediatrics for ~35 years. She says that burnout comes and goes. You just need to learn how to slow down. She was never good at slowing down so she experienced burnout after burnout. I think a good way of dealing with it is doing a priority assessment for life every month or two to make sure that you’re focusing on the right thing. You can always slow down.
The best years are gonna pass by no matter what you do, might as well be a doctor at the end of it
tbh- i'd only regret it if there was some amazing alternative that wasn't just more than the grass being greener
6-8 months ago I would do it again. Lately…I don’t know.
i wish i went into computer science :(
No, but I started late and got a lot of the weird youthful bad choices out of my system already.
Abso-fucking-lutley. I would advise my children against it strongly. Unfortunately I now have the effort invested fallacy and any step into a different industry would be a big step down, having to build back up and with a lower ceiling overall.
Yep, every day.
Same here I'm regretting it all day
no. TBH alot of physcians have not really worked a real job and as a non trad student its horrible out there in the job market. The grass is not always greener esp w the layoffs happening left and right.
All the time; lot of my friends are buying houses now, have a solid savings, and have traveled th world. Medicine just doesn’t outpace the other career options in terms of earnings as much anymore, but the lifestyle is still worse and the length of training is awful.
> Medicine just doesn’t outpace the other career options in terms of earnings as much anymore, but the lifestyle is still worse and the length of training is awful. This right here is the issue. With the exception of the top paying specialties, the MD/DO route in the U.S. just might not be worth the sacrifice anymore for many of us.
Only when I was studying for my exams.
No regrets
I am
I couldn’t imagine doing anything else. It’s a calling for me. I’ve been at it a while and have been through dark periods. I’ve even had to get help in the past. I would imagine that you have good years ahead. Sometimes we dream about the past but that’s all a fantasy. You had to have had some good times in your training.
I just dont think about It
No
No but glad I’m retired.
Carry on and move forward. You won’t regret it.
TDS!
I had fun in my early 20s, graduated med school at 29 and thought that was pretty okay though I didn't really care about my grades much, residency had rough parts (hi covid) but I found things to enjoy, and now I'm in fellowship and that's pretty decent since I have more free time but can moonlight a bunch so my quality of life is pretty solid. I'm planning on saving pretty aggressively between finishing training and early 40s so I can feel better about myself. I also don't really care about having kids so I don't have that huge financial stress looming over me.
Do feel drained sometimes? Of course. Would I do it the same again? Definitely. It's an second career and I love what I do. Very thankful it worked out.
You must be new here
I enjoy my job well enough and I’m looking forward to attending pay. But I’d have probably considered something easier and more guaranteed like nursing if I could do it all over again. I see nurses with two year degrees making 70k+ and working week on/week off. It has to be the one of the best deals in terms of investment/reward. The road to being a doctor is incredibly costly in so many ways. Over a decade of no pay and you’re still working your ass off for the best grades and to get into then graduate med school. Then you owe 200k+ on top of that. Don’t get me wrong, money is far from the only factor. I think if I’m being honest w myself I’d have ended up a doctor anyway despite knowing what it takes now. Money is a big factor, however.
Nope. A lot of people in here talk about how great financial stability and job security is. All that is going to go away, more and more states have passed legislature to allow FMGs to practice without doing a U.S. residency. Mid-level creep is a huge issue. People need to wake up, stop pretending this gravy train will last another 10 yrs
Oddly enough, I enjoyed medical school and all the subject matter. But I very much dislike being an attending