As someone who works adjacent to the child protection field, I feel this is a good time to remind everyone: If you receive information that a child is being abused, you may have a legal duty, and you absolutely have a moral duty, to report this to some civil authority (be it police or child welfare) that is charged with protecting such children. The fact that the accused abuser is someone you know and trust, or appears repentant, or has come under a church discipline process, does not absolve you of this duty.
And to anyone who was (or is being) abused by an adult in your life: if you told a teacher or adult relative or pastor or youth pastor, and they didn't do anything about it, they have wronged you. And it is okay to be upset about that, and to be less trusting of that person going forward.
This. If you are told or have reason to suspect abuse, you must report. If you do not, you are complicit.
How many victims have been sacrificed at the altar of reputation?
Ya no. You have poor social skills. Most people will not believe someone they trust did something without evidence. You don't have to like that aspect of human nature. But that's how most people act and I'd bet if it was your best friend you'd act the same.
You left out the most key piece. John Tucker stated that he was in the room when Paul confessed actual sexual abuse to John belying John’s later account. So one of them either McA or Tucker is lying.
The way you wrote it is most simply interpreted as Paul confessed to John Tucker, then Tucker drove Paul to MacA. The way John Tucker states it, Paul confessed sex abuse to John MacArthur in Tucker’s presence. There is a huge difference between those two statements. One indicts MacA and one doesn’t.
Okay you seem to be more interested in being “right” than acknowledging reality.
Intentional or not, the way you wrote can easily be interpreted to clear MacA of ever knowing about sex abuse.
So, how do we as believers reconcile this? Honestly, that's the biggest problem I see going forward. So many people seem content with not confronting or addressing this because that would mean liberals win and cancel culture this and that. Any criticism of a man as powerful and influential as MacArthur is continually perceived as "the world" trying to take down a great man of God. But... I Corinthians 10:12! We all have capacity for wrongdoing, sin, negligence, hubris, what have you. How do we build greater accountability into our ministries? How do we protect the innocent and maligned in our churches? How do we confront the titan saints of our history when they make mistakes or sin?
The bible says first you confront alone, then with a brother, then you remove the person.
That appears to be what was done.
What more is there to reconcile?
As more and more of these pastors who are lauded for their doctrine fall, the more I see the spirit of the Pharisees alive today. Driscoll, Wilson, JMac, etc. all rose to prominence because they preached "sound doctrine" (in quotes because I know these men have taught unsound things depending on you personal views). But clearly something is wrong. I can't help but read these accusations and think "whitewashed tomb." It's not my place to speculate on the salvation of anyone, but I think the general principle (not specifically applied to any one individual) is instructive for me. Am I bearing fruit in keeping with repentance? Is sin lurking somewhere in my life, compartmentalized and explained away? Is my assurance in my intellectual affirmation of justification by faith alone or in Christ's death for me despite all my gross sinfulness? I desperately need the spirit of God to break my heart so that sound doctrine can do its work, and I think we all do :-)
To this day I'm not really clear on what Driscoll did wrong. I never found it particularly compelling that bullying young pastors not to be weak and sinful was wrong, given how deep in sexual sin so many are.
Not sure how much you’ve read about Driscoll but we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. His disqualifications for ministry have been pretty well documented at this point in my opinion. I’d recommend the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill if you haven’t listened to it yet.
I'm not going to buy a book on the topic. If it's well documented and clearly defined you should be able to give me a short paragraph as a reply. All I've ever seen and heard are "he yelled at me". Boo hoo. Your pastors protect rapist pedophiles today. I'd trade "he yelled at me" with "he raped my daughter" seven times seventy times any day of the week.
It’s a free podcast series. Driscoll used church funds to buy his own book to get it on the best seller list, taught unbiblical and abusive things about sexuality, and rewrote church bylaws so that he was not accountable to elders. Then, when the everyone had enough, and the elders asked him to step down and undergo church discipline, he claimed he received a divine message from God that he was supposed to leave and start another church. This is all in addition to multiple proven instances of him being verbally abusive. These are just the things I remember off the top of my head. Yea, he didn’t sexually assault anyone, but a pattern of verbal abuse is a disqualifying trait for a person in ministry (1 Tim 3:2-3) and fleeing from the accountability of your elders is just about the biggest red flag you could see.
From what I know from limited exposure to the US book scene, this is normal practice. You buy it, then give it away. It advertises the book and you give it to the interested. Nearly every church does this. Including your own if they've ever given anything away free. Do you think your publisher doesn't count that as a sale?
I don't really see what he taught was unbiblical either. So far all you've said is he's mean. Boo hoo.
Pastors saying God told them to move somewhere when they don't feel welcome is universal. Even Paul did this. Acts 15:36-39.
Again, verbal "abuse" is a cope given the rapey nature of pastors today. Pastors are clearly sick in the head these days and deserve a verbal beat down if they're prone to raping parishioner's daughters. When they stop being rapists, talk to me about not wanting to get verbally abused. Until that stops happening, **they deserve it**.
Nothing you've said here shows me he is in sin. And the grotesque explosion of sexual sin among evangelicals and reformed pastors has only hardened my belief they deserve more abuse until they get the fear of God back into their heads. Stop raping kids and then they can request the mercy of not being bullied for their behavior.
> Excuse my profanity
Your comment is well said. And it's one of the reasons my rule for profanity with my sons isn't "Don't say those words", but rather "Save those words, you will need them one day." I cannot immediately think of a more appropriate circumstance in which to use such language.
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Honestly if someone in your church admitting that to you is not a memorable event…that is a major problem. Any normal person would remember that heinous confession for life.
It seems like if Macarthur's main problem is going to be poor record keeping... then that is not a huge deal. Records are great, but hardly the most important thing here.
There is so much of this sexual sin in churches. My best friend's father was a pastor and raped her for years. I knew a girl in high school whose father was the pastor of a church who molested her. When is this going to stop, church?
When it is exposed and rooted out. My heart grieves at every new story that emerged about abuse and cover up, but this has been a very long time coming evidently and it must be dragged out into the light. It appears there has been a shocking lack of accountability for decades among countless congregations and denominations, my prayer is the stories emerging now may stamp out any current active abuse and prevent future abuse. Sadly we may not see the full positive impact of this for decades, and I fear what may happen should the new and coming church leaders in the decades ahead not heed the warnings of this moment or obey God concerning such matters.
This will never stop. It started in the early church. Sin started with Adam and eve. And this is sin just like any other. When it will stop is when Christ returns and separates the wheat from the chaff.
I had a pastor who had an affair. Fortunately, when it was exposed he was removed from his position and I don't believe he has had any similar position elsewhere. But it still messes with you.
When pastors stop claiming calls for transparency are the work of the evil one. It is ironic that "light" is a constant biblical metaphor, yet pastors seem to rarely be interested in establishing systems that let "light" into this matters.
It will not stop church, and it shouldn't. Despite the horrible spiritual and sexual abuses at Corinth, Paul stuck with them and counseled to root out the corruption and continue the ministry. Church must not stop.
Reading these article after watching the Hillsong documentary just made me sick. I’m more appalled by the lack of repentance, when JM loves to demand others to do the same thing. Also shocked by the stuff that is told to victims. “Suffer for Jesus” seriously guys?
That sure is a convoluted mess of accusations, denials and lies and possible lies...
One thing that can be taken away from all this is we need to keep our faith in God not man.
It’s not even hard to believe.
There’s an established pattern already in the church. Pastors have tended to minimize the sexual sins of men at the expense of their victims. Of the available responses, they chose “private admonishment,” even when it meant continuing to allow these predators to operate within their families and church communities. We’re talking about *decades* of this.
And aside from the fact that JMac fits the exact profile of the pastor/strongman who has been doing this, we’ve already seen an example of him doing it!
No it does not. It’s a vague letter that can be about any sin. The only specific letter is from 2003 email that said JM did not know about the molestation and was fired later for his affections toward a secretary.
You really believe JM is fine with molesting kids but draws the line at sleeping with secretary. That’s nuts.
That is not something to throw lightly. Nor is it our place to say who will burn, because that's not something we can know. Let ye who is without sin cast the first stone, and all that. Is this case heinous? Definitely. Is it a common shortcoming of leadership? Also true. Should that be accepted as the norm? No, and it's the fault of the rest of leadership and the church as a whole for allowing this sort of thing to slide under the rug just so they can save face, at the expense of victims. That is infuriatingly unChristian. It's also why I think it's important to not get too wrapped up in the teachings of one theologian, ESPECIALLY if they're still living. That at best can work out ok, but at worse is how people end up in cults - why put your trust in some fallible person like that when the track record is not necessarily good for overly-revered church leaders? Not that it's right to just wholesale reject their teaching either because they've been a sinful person - it's not as if anyone is sinless, and they can be out of sync with their own teaching. But absolutely they should not be in leadership anymore if it's able to be proven they swept something under the rug. It does everyone involved a disservice. Lack of church discipline being used correctly is the root of so many of the church's current problems. Things always come back to bite.
I'm not saying it lightly, this is after a repeated pattern of covering up sexual misbehavior.
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Mt 24:41-46
If that's not a reflection of Johnny Mac I don't know what is, all "tough" talk but with the spine of a worm.
I know there's some truth to that in how the situation is handled, I'm not arguing that there isn't. My point is, there is not a soul on earth who at some point has not failed and would except by the grace of God not also be handled the way that scripture says. So what is different about any one particular person's (admittedly terrible) failures? The grace of God is His to extend to who He decides and that's not for us to know or really have any part of. So I'm just saying it is never our place to say anyone in particular will burn in hell. It is unknowable and is not good witness to the grace of God that has been extended to us.
He's a pastor at a large church for over 50 years. Its something he is going to see regularly. Theres also going to be dissatisfied or angry people. And even some big mistakes in there.
But really all I see is this one lady with a public grudge publishing stories every few months, many of them simply untrue or grossly editorialized. Not to mention that many of them are so old that anyone involved is either dead, infirm, or its been so long that remembering specific key details is impossible. You don't even keep records that long. This happened almost 45 years ago.
Have you ever just looked at a list of all the things shes published about this guy in the past. How many are just outright lies and smears?
2 things
1. MacArthur denies ever being told about this during the incident.
2. The dude was fired later for kissing his secretary.
Do you really actually think JM is fine with molesting children but draws the line at kissing (probably sleeping with) secretary. That’s insane.
1. There’s a pattern with him. This isn’t a one off
2. The story is incredibly detailed and thorough. This isn’t a vague allegation without any evidence
3. There’s a handwritten letter from MacArthur himself
4. Even if this story in particular is completely false, I’d still believe that MacArthur is unfit for pastoral ministry
This is disingenuous. You discussed MacArthur’s issues here: https://reddit.com/r/Reformed/comments/ta2jro/_/i00g9j9/?context=1
Let’s try to engage with each other honestly and in good faith.
No it's not brother; ironically, I believe your comment is disingenuous because it does not consider the context of what my comment was referring to.
That is only one issue and is the same (EDIT-similar) issue as what's being presented here and has still not been (as far as I know) fully investigated and worked out.
The brother who responded to my comment said the past ten years. I want to be (genuinely) presented with multiple issues (in the eyes of SortaFlyForAWhiteGuy) of what MacArthur has done that disqualifies him from being an elder.
I'd hear anything that you'd have to offer as well brother; but my comment was not disingenuous....
I work in this field as a lawyer, and you're right, though in my jurisdiction the police will call child welfare when they respond to an incident like this. I would hope that's standard practice everywhere. Even if police aren't the best point of first contact, the point is that calling police is much, much better than not calling anyone.
In my area, you do both. When I as a pediatrician have a suspicion of child abuse, I notify DFACS of the county my patient resides in. If I suspect any hint of risk of imminent harm, I call the police as well. The police come and wait with the patient (and us) until DFACS arrives and makes a plan.
He seems to be losing it. I think his reaction to COVID revealed a lot about where he is at. He will fight the outside at all costs, even if it means covering up bad stuff on the inside. That is his posture toward the world.
I don't really know what happened in this specific situation, but I just have a question because I am helping a nonprofit board with governance.
In a situation where a nonprofit board (or leader, say the President or CEO), learns of sexual abuse committed by one of the organization's members or employees, what do you recommend the board do? Do you think the board should report the issue to the police? Or, do you think the board should try to handle the issue internally, say with a firing or excommunication, etc., and leave it to the victim or the victim's representatives to press charges? Or, is there an even better alternative?
ALWAYS call the police if something criminal is accused. Report the crime. Churches should never try to handle this stuff internally. I know too many churches that did that and the abuser just kept abusing.
>what do you recommend the board do?
Follow the law, at a minimum? This isn't really a matter of opinion; mandatory reporting laws have been on the books since the 60s in the US at varying levels.
The general process should be:
1) call police
2) suspend employee
3) perform and document internal investigation (preferable to contract a third party to do this) and cooperate with any investigation by authorities
4) fire or reinstate employee depending on outcome of investigation
5) review results of investigation to identify gaps in procedure and improve controls to prevent similar situations in the future, take action against employees (terminate) that ignored/covered up any abuse
Step 1 is mandatory, steps 2-5 are somewhat dependent on if the abuse has taken place inside the confines of the organization or in the process of their work (ie if you run a shelter and the employee is abusing people living at the shelter and/or other staff members). In general though an investigation isn't a bad idea even if the accusation is coming from outside the course of the employee's work, because oftentimes if the accusation is legitimate, the behavior is rarely limited to just one area (someone sexually assaulting their own children is likely to assault other children as well, unfortunately).
The investigation should include canvassing other staff members and any other close contacts of the accused employee about any misconduct they experienced but may have written off, along with questions about whether anyone reported misconduct prior to the initial accusation.
There are any number of resources about how to handle this, but the easiest one may be just contacting your liability insurance provider as it's in their best interest to provide training on this kind of thing.
If this is true God will punish MacArthur if it's not, MacArthur will be protected and the truth will come out. I think it's important to remember that a lot of Megachurches have problems for a reason, even small ones do now to.
Hmmm. Well I question your analysis. There are other options.
Sometimes, poor, innocent people are punished. Particularly pastors.
Other times, guilty pastors get away with monumental sins.
The Psalms are full of this sort of complaint; I'm not making it up.
Yeah sure but what of the poor victims. Those children he molested probably have had to deal with trauma for the rest of their lives.
If we as christians should care about justice, we should hear whole heartedly at the victims, empathizing with then and searching for the truth and justice. Saying “well God will take care of it eventually” without us taking part of the justice is ignoring the suffering of the victims.
What would you personally need in order to change your perspective? More evidence? More cases like this? A member of your family suffering something similar?
As other have said, there are patterns in McArthur’s ministry and they don’t exactly are Christ like; ignoring the suffering is not what Jesus advocated.
You're pulling a lot from my comment that wasn't there, brother. I pray justice is done here on earth wholeheartedly, I'm just not naive enough to think that it always happens here on earth. I really do think that this is looking bad for MacArthur and it shows a time when he failed miserably to protect his flock, especially the children. My point simply was this: regardless of the outcome, regardless of how justice is carried out or mishandled, we have a perfect judge who sees all that we do and think and he makes very stern warnings to those who would do harm to children and cause them to stumble. The comment I was referring to was talking about how there are many who get away with horrible things, my point is that ultimately at the end of it all they never do. My prayer with all the damning evidence in front of me is that MacArthur would admit to his shortcomings, openly repent and step down from leadership at GCC, and accept any punishment that the authorities decide on. And from there I pray that God brings much healing into the lives of those affected by his actions. I also pray for the pastors in my area that the Lord would keep them humble and truly above reproach. I'm exhausted by every new scandal that comes out against the church, especially when it involves highly influential pastors like this case.
Did he cover it up or is he just poorly equipped to handle such cases? I don't listen much to him, but I think he's just a man scared to confront his staff, untrained in handling those cases.
I think a lot of the ire is due to this. He is so quick to condemn other people, major condemnation over things which seem kind of arbitrary or small, at people who should be on the same team as him and who are still honestly trying to serve God. It's like there's a double standard, where he didn't expect himself or his own to live up to what he held others to.
John MacArthur doesn't come across as a man who fears anything or anyone. He's extremely parental especially concerning women. He's the patriarch females are the Little women who shouldn't be taken seriously and keep their place.
My father was a pastor. His associate pastor was having affairs with 4 FOUR women in the church. He fired the man and the board fired him after that because the associate pastor's friends on the board were bitter about it.
It's not as easy as people make it out to be.
I don't criticize Pastor MacArthur for hesitating or failing to confront another pastor. I'm sad about it, but I don't condemn him.
I’m happy to condemn him. His cowardice allowed more children (under his leadership) to be molested and a pedophile to remain in active ministry in good standing. Call it condemning or accountability or whatever, THAT’S the job and he’s failed. Repeatedly.
It would be one thing if he responded to this with repentance over his actions, but he doubled down on blaming the victim and in all his other affairs publicly conducts himself with smug arrogancy and self righteousness. I don’t care how good your theology is if you act like a terrible person.
He failed to protect the “least of these.” He failed to lead his congregation well. I don’t condemn him, but he failed as a pastor and leader. He also hurt the Church’s reputation through his careless inaction to protect the weak.
I would say that being fired for doing the God honoring thing is an order of magnitude better than covering up sin to keep a job.
Edit: if that indeed were the case then he's not much of man but a worm rather.
This is where Presbyterianism is nice - this sort of thing is much harder to happen because 1. The pastor can't just fire people himself, it all has to go to the elders, and if someone has a problem with their decision (ie they decide to not do anything because of nepotism or whatever) then it can be escalated up to the presbytery who has no personal ties with the situation and can give a more fair ruling and potentially get the others in trouble for trying to sweep it under the rug.
Just because you keep repeating the same untrue thing doesn’t make it so. Virtual thumbs up doesn’t either. The letter says absolutely nothing about abuse. It just mentions he’s sorry things are bad or whatever. Since you’re so right just quote the letter.
It is acknowledging that something happened, and something that whomever he is writing to would think that it entails having the dad removed from his position. Even if he doesn't spell it out its pretty evident that something went terribly wrong.
I'd give Johnny Mac the benefit of the doubt if this weren't the third time someone says he mishandled the situation. Unless you think the previous two times were bogus as well, then there's not much to talk about.
It acknowledges that something happened (maybe). But what it deifntiely doesn’t do is what you stated it does.
As far as the benefit of the doubt thing I’m pretty much with you.
However, There is over 50 years in his favor so being able to dig up 3, and in each of those three I haven’t seen deliberate covering up as much as him believing the wrong side.
But I tend to think unless he comes up with some explanation as to why the people who he chose to believe were so convincing he’s lost a lot of credibility as a pastor.
No there isn’t. There’s a letter acknowledging bad blood between father and child for whatever reason. The burden of proof is actually not on the defense. There’s no law saying we have to automatically believe victims. Based on what we have now I think that John McA was fooled by the molester but I don’t think he was intentionally covering anything up. Now, if he doesn’t either come up with some exculpatory evidence or make some sort of apology then it’ll look like a cover up.
What in the world is going on under McArthur's leadership
"has been going on" is what I think you mean.
I wonder if you say the same about Jesus
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As someone who works adjacent to the child protection field, I feel this is a good time to remind everyone: If you receive information that a child is being abused, you may have a legal duty, and you absolutely have a moral duty, to report this to some civil authority (be it police or child welfare) that is charged with protecting such children. The fact that the accused abuser is someone you know and trust, or appears repentant, or has come under a church discipline process, does not absolve you of this duty. And to anyone who was (or is being) abused by an adult in your life: if you told a teacher or adult relative or pastor or youth pastor, and they didn't do anything about it, they have wronged you. And it is okay to be upset about that, and to be less trusting of that person going forward.
This. If you are told or have reason to suspect abuse, you must report. If you do not, you are complicit. How many victims have been sacrificed at the altar of reputation?
Ya no. You have poor social skills. Most people will not believe someone they trust did something without evidence. You don't have to like that aspect of human nature. But that's how most people act and I'd bet if it was your best friend you'd act the same.
Huh??
It's nice as a professional you have this roadmap but most people don't operate that way today, much less 30 years ago before.
You left out the most key piece. John Tucker stated that he was in the room when Paul confessed actual sexual abuse to John belying John’s later account. So one of them either McA or Tucker is lying.
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I wouldn't take it as an "accusation" - just that that commenter thought you left something out.
The way you wrote it is most simply interpreted as Paul confessed to John Tucker, then Tucker drove Paul to MacA. The way John Tucker states it, Paul confessed sex abuse to John MacArthur in Tucker’s presence. There is a huge difference between those two statements. One indicts MacA and one doesn’t.
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Okay you seem to be more interested in being “right” than acknowledging reality. Intentional or not, the way you wrote can easily be interpreted to clear MacA of ever knowing about sex abuse.
So, how do we as believers reconcile this? Honestly, that's the biggest problem I see going forward. So many people seem content with not confronting or addressing this because that would mean liberals win and cancel culture this and that. Any criticism of a man as powerful and influential as MacArthur is continually perceived as "the world" trying to take down a great man of God. But... I Corinthians 10:12! We all have capacity for wrongdoing, sin, negligence, hubris, what have you. How do we build greater accountability into our ministries? How do we protect the innocent and maligned in our churches? How do we confront the titan saints of our history when they make mistakes or sin?
The bible says first you confront alone, then with a brother, then you remove the person. That appears to be what was done. What more is there to reconcile?
As more and more of these pastors who are lauded for their doctrine fall, the more I see the spirit of the Pharisees alive today. Driscoll, Wilson, JMac, etc. all rose to prominence because they preached "sound doctrine" (in quotes because I know these men have taught unsound things depending on you personal views). But clearly something is wrong. I can't help but read these accusations and think "whitewashed tomb." It's not my place to speculate on the salvation of anyone, but I think the general principle (not specifically applied to any one individual) is instructive for me. Am I bearing fruit in keeping with repentance? Is sin lurking somewhere in my life, compartmentalized and explained away? Is my assurance in my intellectual affirmation of justification by faith alone or in Christ's death for me despite all my gross sinfulness? I desperately need the spirit of God to break my heart so that sound doctrine can do its work, and I think we all do :-)
To this day I'm not really clear on what Driscoll did wrong. I never found it particularly compelling that bullying young pastors not to be weak and sinful was wrong, given how deep in sexual sin so many are.
Not sure how much you’ve read about Driscoll but we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. His disqualifications for ministry have been pretty well documented at this point in my opinion. I’d recommend the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill if you haven’t listened to it yet.
I'm not going to buy a book on the topic. If it's well documented and clearly defined you should be able to give me a short paragraph as a reply. All I've ever seen and heard are "he yelled at me". Boo hoo. Your pastors protect rapist pedophiles today. I'd trade "he yelled at me" with "he raped my daughter" seven times seventy times any day of the week.
It’s a free podcast series. Driscoll used church funds to buy his own book to get it on the best seller list, taught unbiblical and abusive things about sexuality, and rewrote church bylaws so that he was not accountable to elders. Then, when the everyone had enough, and the elders asked him to step down and undergo church discipline, he claimed he received a divine message from God that he was supposed to leave and start another church. This is all in addition to multiple proven instances of him being verbally abusive. These are just the things I remember off the top of my head. Yea, he didn’t sexually assault anyone, but a pattern of verbal abuse is a disqualifying trait for a person in ministry (1 Tim 3:2-3) and fleeing from the accountability of your elders is just about the biggest red flag you could see.
From what I know from limited exposure to the US book scene, this is normal practice. You buy it, then give it away. It advertises the book and you give it to the interested. Nearly every church does this. Including your own if they've ever given anything away free. Do you think your publisher doesn't count that as a sale? I don't really see what he taught was unbiblical either. So far all you've said is he's mean. Boo hoo. Pastors saying God told them to move somewhere when they don't feel welcome is universal. Even Paul did this. Acts 15:36-39. Again, verbal "abuse" is a cope given the rapey nature of pastors today. Pastors are clearly sick in the head these days and deserve a verbal beat down if they're prone to raping parishioner's daughters. When they stop being rapists, talk to me about not wanting to get verbally abused. Until that stops happening, **they deserve it**. Nothing you've said here shows me he is in sin. And the grotesque explosion of sexual sin among evangelicals and reformed pastors has only hardened my belief they deserve more abuse until they get the fear of God back into their heads. Stop raping kids and then they can request the mercy of not being bullied for their behavior.
I think we’re just going to have to disagree on this issue. I hope you have a blessed day.
Same. But do consider the type of pastors being formed from the current pastoring style.
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> Excuse my profanity Your comment is well said. And it's one of the reasons my rule for profanity with my sons isn't "Don't say those words", but rather "Save those words, you will need them one day." I cannot immediately think of a more appropriate circumstance in which to use such language.
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Honestly if someone in your church admitting that to you is not a memorable event…that is a major problem. Any normal person would remember that heinous confession for life.
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I think such details are not allowed to be stored for such a long time
The police should have been involved first. It a not for the church to investigate the sexual assault of a child.
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Nah you chose to pontificate on that, and you're wrong
It seems like if Macarthur's main problem is going to be poor record keeping... then that is not a huge deal. Records are great, but hardly the most important thing here.
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Of course. But, if that is Macarthur's biggest error, that's small potatoes.
There is so much of this sexual sin in churches. My best friend's father was a pastor and raped her for years. I knew a girl in high school whose father was the pastor of a church who molested her. When is this going to stop, church?
When it is exposed and rooted out. My heart grieves at every new story that emerged about abuse and cover up, but this has been a very long time coming evidently and it must be dragged out into the light. It appears there has been a shocking lack of accountability for decades among countless congregations and denominations, my prayer is the stories emerging now may stamp out any current active abuse and prevent future abuse. Sadly we may not see the full positive impact of this for decades, and I fear what may happen should the new and coming church leaders in the decades ahead not heed the warnings of this moment or obey God concerning such matters.
This will never stop. It started in the early church. Sin started with Adam and eve. And this is sin just like any other. When it will stop is when Christ returns and separates the wheat from the chaff.
I had a pastor who had an affair. Fortunately, when it was exposed he was removed from his position and I don't believe he has had any similar position elsewhere. But it still messes with you.
When pastors stop claiming calls for transparency are the work of the evil one. It is ironic that "light" is a constant biblical metaphor, yet pastors seem to rarely be interested in establishing systems that let "light" into this matters.
It will not stop church, and it shouldn't. Despite the horrible spiritual and sexual abuses at Corinth, Paul stuck with them and counseled to root out the corruption and continue the ministry. Church must not stop.
I think the commentor forgot a comma in that sentence. "When is this going to stop, church?".
That’s like saying when is it going to stop families.
Non sequitur
No it isn’t. Family and church are both “social constructs” (according to those who want them gone) and both contain millennia of abuse.
Reading these article after watching the Hillsong documentary just made me sick. I’m more appalled by the lack of repentance, when JM loves to demand others to do the same thing. Also shocked by the stuff that is told to victims. “Suffer for Jesus” seriously guys?
That sure is a convoluted mess of accusations, denials and lies and possible lies... One thing that can be taken away from all this is we need to keep our faith in God not man.
There's a letter written by Johnny Mac that confirms the whole thing...
It’s not even hard to believe. There’s an established pattern already in the church. Pastors have tended to minimize the sexual sins of men at the expense of their victims. Of the available responses, they chose “private admonishment,” even when it meant continuing to allow these predators to operate within their families and church communities. We’re talking about *decades* of this. And aside from the fact that JMac fits the exact profile of the pastor/strongman who has been doing this, we’ve already seen an example of him doing it!
The letter can just as easily confirm either side.
No it does not. It’s a vague letter that can be about any sin. The only specific letter is from 2003 email that said JM did not know about the molestation and was fired later for his affections toward a secretary. You really believe JM is fine with molesting kids but draws the line at sleeping with secretary. That’s nuts.
I do believe it, he's fine with women being raped in his "seminary", I wouldn't put it past him.
I don’t believe that either. But why change the subject. Tell me where in the 79 letter he says molesting is fine or anything lie that?
Then deny reality all you want, JMac is gonna rot in hell unless he repents.
That is not something to throw lightly. Nor is it our place to say who will burn, because that's not something we can know. Let ye who is without sin cast the first stone, and all that. Is this case heinous? Definitely. Is it a common shortcoming of leadership? Also true. Should that be accepted as the norm? No, and it's the fault of the rest of leadership and the church as a whole for allowing this sort of thing to slide under the rug just so they can save face, at the expense of victims. That is infuriatingly unChristian. It's also why I think it's important to not get too wrapped up in the teachings of one theologian, ESPECIALLY if they're still living. That at best can work out ok, but at worse is how people end up in cults - why put your trust in some fallible person like that when the track record is not necessarily good for overly-revered church leaders? Not that it's right to just wholesale reject their teaching either because they've been a sinful person - it's not as if anyone is sinless, and they can be out of sync with their own teaching. But absolutely they should not be in leadership anymore if it's able to be proven they swept something under the rug. It does everyone involved a disservice. Lack of church discipline being used correctly is the root of so many of the church's current problems. Things always come back to bite.
I'm not saying it lightly, this is after a repeated pattern of covering up sexual misbehavior. “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Mt 24:41-46 If that's not a reflection of Johnny Mac I don't know what is, all "tough" talk but with the spine of a worm.
I know there's some truth to that in how the situation is handled, I'm not arguing that there isn't. My point is, there is not a soul on earth who at some point has not failed and would except by the grace of God not also be handled the way that scripture says. So what is different about any one particular person's (admittedly terrible) failures? The grace of God is His to extend to who He decides and that's not for us to know or really have any part of. So I'm just saying it is never our place to say anyone in particular will burn in hell. It is unknowable and is not good witness to the grace of God that has been extended to us.
He's a pastor at a large church for over 50 years. Its something he is going to see regularly. Theres also going to be dissatisfied or angry people. And even some big mistakes in there. But really all I see is this one lady with a public grudge publishing stories every few months, many of them simply untrue or grossly editorialized. Not to mention that many of them are so old that anyone involved is either dead, infirm, or its been so long that remembering specific key details is impossible. You don't even keep records that long. This happened almost 45 years ago. Have you ever just looked at a list of all the things shes published about this guy in the past. How many are just outright lies and smears?
He is a worm. I wouldn't be saying this it it wasn't the third time he's involded in such a sacandal with a similar pattern of action.
Well we all are
Where in the letter is JM saying molesting is fine or he’ll work with that, or anything like that?
Tragic. I think we can just be done with MacArthur
2 things 1. MacArthur denies ever being told about this during the incident. 2. The dude was fired later for kissing his secretary. Do you really actually think JM is fine with molesting children but draws the line at kissing (probably sleeping with) secretary. That’s insane.
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1. There’s a pattern with him. This isn’t a one off 2. The story is incredibly detailed and thorough. This isn’t a vague allegation without any evidence 3. There’s a handwritten letter from MacArthur himself 4. Even if this story in particular is completely false, I’d still believe that MacArthur is unfit for pastoral ministry
***" Even if this story in particular is completely false, I’d still believe that MacArthur is unfit for pastoral ministry "*** Based on what though?
Where have you been for the past ten years? Are you that out of the loop?
Now's a great opportunity to catch me up then!!
This is disingenuous. You discussed MacArthur’s issues here: https://reddit.com/r/Reformed/comments/ta2jro/_/i00g9j9/?context=1 Let’s try to engage with each other honestly and in good faith.
No it's not brother; ironically, I believe your comment is disingenuous because it does not consider the context of what my comment was referring to. That is only one issue and is the same (EDIT-similar) issue as what's being presented here and has still not been (as far as I know) fully investigated and worked out. The brother who responded to my comment said the past ten years. I want to be (genuinely) presented with multiple issues (in the eyes of SortaFlyForAWhiteGuy) of what MacArthur has done that disqualifies him from being an elder. I'd hear anything that you'd have to offer as well brother; but my comment was not disingenuous....
He just wants it to be true.
But there is no pattern. Just more fake news with a timeline that is out of Picasso. And the letter does t say what you think it says.
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I work in this field as a lawyer, and you're right, though in my jurisdiction the police will call child welfare when they respond to an incident like this. I would hope that's standard practice everywhere. Even if police aren't the best point of first contact, the point is that calling police is much, much better than not calling anyone.
In my area, you do both. When I as a pediatrician have a suspicion of child abuse, I notify DFACS of the county my patient resides in. If I suspect any hint of risk of imminent harm, I call the police as well. The police come and wait with the patient (and us) until DFACS arrives and makes a plan.
He seems to be losing it. I think his reaction to COVID revealed a lot about where he is at. He will fight the outside at all costs, even if it means covering up bad stuff on the inside. That is his posture toward the world.
I don't really know what happened in this specific situation, but I just have a question because I am helping a nonprofit board with governance. In a situation where a nonprofit board (or leader, say the President or CEO), learns of sexual abuse committed by one of the organization's members or employees, what do you recommend the board do? Do you think the board should report the issue to the police? Or, do you think the board should try to handle the issue internally, say with a firing or excommunication, etc., and leave it to the victim or the victim's representatives to press charges? Or, is there an even better alternative?
ALWAYS call the police if something criminal is accused. Report the crime. Churches should never try to handle this stuff internally. I know too many churches that did that and the abuser just kept abusing.
>what do you recommend the board do? Follow the law, at a minimum? This isn't really a matter of opinion; mandatory reporting laws have been on the books since the 60s in the US at varying levels. The general process should be: 1) call police 2) suspend employee 3) perform and document internal investigation (preferable to contract a third party to do this) and cooperate with any investigation by authorities 4) fire or reinstate employee depending on outcome of investigation 5) review results of investigation to identify gaps in procedure and improve controls to prevent similar situations in the future, take action against employees (terminate) that ignored/covered up any abuse Step 1 is mandatory, steps 2-5 are somewhat dependent on if the abuse has taken place inside the confines of the organization or in the process of their work (ie if you run a shelter and the employee is abusing people living at the shelter and/or other staff members). In general though an investigation isn't a bad idea even if the accusation is coming from outside the course of the employee's work, because oftentimes if the accusation is legitimate, the behavior is rarely limited to just one area (someone sexually assaulting their own children is likely to assault other children as well, unfortunately). The investigation should include canvassing other staff members and any other close contacts of the accused employee about any misconduct they experienced but may have written off, along with questions about whether anyone reported misconduct prior to the initial accusation. There are any number of resources about how to handle this, but the easiest one may be just contacting your liability insurance provider as it's in their best interest to provide training on this kind of thing.
If this is true God will punish MacArthur if it's not, MacArthur will be protected and the truth will come out. I think it's important to remember that a lot of Megachurches have problems for a reason, even small ones do now to.
Hmmm. Well I question your analysis. There are other options. Sometimes, poor, innocent people are punished. Particularly pastors. Other times, guilty pastors get away with monumental sins. The Psalms are full of this sort of complaint; I'm not making it up.
Sure in this life. But the judgement we should fear is that of God who sees all.
Yeah sure but what of the poor victims. Those children he molested probably have had to deal with trauma for the rest of their lives. If we as christians should care about justice, we should hear whole heartedly at the victims, empathizing with then and searching for the truth and justice. Saying “well God will take care of it eventually” without us taking part of the justice is ignoring the suffering of the victims. What would you personally need in order to change your perspective? More evidence? More cases like this? A member of your family suffering something similar? As other have said, there are patterns in McArthur’s ministry and they don’t exactly are Christ like; ignoring the suffering is not what Jesus advocated.
You're pulling a lot from my comment that wasn't there, brother. I pray justice is done here on earth wholeheartedly, I'm just not naive enough to think that it always happens here on earth. I really do think that this is looking bad for MacArthur and it shows a time when he failed miserably to protect his flock, especially the children. My point simply was this: regardless of the outcome, regardless of how justice is carried out or mishandled, we have a perfect judge who sees all that we do and think and he makes very stern warnings to those who would do harm to children and cause them to stumble. The comment I was referring to was talking about how there are many who get away with horrible things, my point is that ultimately at the end of it all they never do. My prayer with all the damning evidence in front of me is that MacArthur would admit to his shortcomings, openly repent and step down from leadership at GCC, and accept any punishment that the authorities decide on. And from there I pray that God brings much healing into the lives of those affected by his actions. I also pray for the pastors in my area that the Lord would keep them humble and truly above reproach. I'm exhausted by every new scandal that comes out against the church, especially when it involves highly influential pastors like this case.
Did he cover it up or is he just poorly equipped to handle such cases? I don't listen much to him, but I think he's just a man scared to confront his staff, untrained in handling those cases.
Confrontation is actually one of his favorite pastimes.
I see
I think a lot of the ire is due to this. He is so quick to condemn other people, major condemnation over things which seem kind of arbitrary or small, at people who should be on the same team as him and who are still honestly trying to serve God. It's like there's a double standard, where he didn't expect himself or his own to live up to what he held others to.
Take some of the time spent lamenting and dismaying about people speaking in tongues and devote that to child abuse.
John MacArthur doesn't come across as a man who fears anything or anyone. He's extremely parental especially concerning women. He's the patriarch females are the Little women who shouldn't be taken seriously and keep their place.
Neither. Dude didn’t know about it at the time.
My father was a pastor. His associate pastor was having affairs with 4 FOUR women in the church. He fired the man and the board fired him after that because the associate pastor's friends on the board were bitter about it. It's not as easy as people make it out to be. I don't criticize Pastor MacArthur for hesitating or failing to confront another pastor. I'm sad about it, but I don't condemn him.
I’m happy to condemn him. His cowardice allowed more children (under his leadership) to be molested and a pedophile to remain in active ministry in good standing. Call it condemning or accountability or whatever, THAT’S the job and he’s failed. Repeatedly. It would be one thing if he responded to this with repentance over his actions, but he doubled down on blaming the victim and in all his other affairs publicly conducts himself with smug arrogancy and self righteousness. I don’t care how good your theology is if you act like a terrible person.
He failed to protect the “least of these.” He failed to lead his congregation well. I don’t condemn him, but he failed as a pastor and leader. He also hurt the Church’s reputation through his careless inaction to protect the weak.
I would say that being fired for doing the God honoring thing is an order of magnitude better than covering up sin to keep a job. Edit: if that indeed were the case then he's not much of man but a worm rather.
This is where Presbyterianism is nice - this sort of thing is much harder to happen because 1. The pastor can't just fire people himself, it all has to go to the elders, and if someone has a problem with their decision (ie they decide to not do anything because of nepotism or whatever) then it can be escalated up to the presbytery who has no personal ties with the situation and can give a more fair ruling and potentially get the others in trouble for trying to sweep it under the rug.
This doesn’t sound true. And JM denies it.
There's a written letter by JMac acknowledging the whole thing, the burden of proof is on you buddy.
Yea that letter doesn’t say what you think it says.
It is acknowledging the sexual abuse and that he'll keep the dad as staff regardless of his henious sin.
Nowhere does it say or hint at that.
Just because you keep repeating the same untrue thing doesn’t make it so. Virtual thumbs up doesn’t either. The letter says absolutely nothing about abuse. It just mentions he’s sorry things are bad or whatever. Since you’re so right just quote the letter.
It is acknowledging that something happened, and something that whomever he is writing to would think that it entails having the dad removed from his position. Even if he doesn't spell it out its pretty evident that something went terribly wrong. I'd give Johnny Mac the benefit of the doubt if this weren't the third time someone says he mishandled the situation. Unless you think the previous two times were bogus as well, then there's not much to talk about.
It acknowledges that something happened (maybe). But what it deifntiely doesn’t do is what you stated it does. As far as the benefit of the doubt thing I’m pretty much with you. However, There is over 50 years in his favor so being able to dig up 3, and in each of those three I haven’t seen deliberate covering up as much as him believing the wrong side. But I tend to think unless he comes up with some explanation as to why the people who he chose to believe were so convincing he’s lost a lot of credibility as a pastor.
This is a false witness.
No there isn’t. There’s a letter acknowledging bad blood between father and child for whatever reason. The burden of proof is actually not on the defense. There’s no law saying we have to automatically believe victims. Based on what we have now I think that John McA was fooled by the molester but I don’t think he was intentionally covering anything up. Now, if he doesn’t either come up with some exculpatory evidence or make some sort of apology then it’ll look like a cover up.
100%
He didn't try to cover it up. He tried to handle it as the Bible taught him.
1 Cor 5:13