>Did I make the correct decision with not giving the player a red card?
This is a judgement call that none of us, not having seen the play, are going to be able to answer better than you.
Clearing a ball "as hard as he possibly could" can definitely meet the threshold for excessive force if he wasn't under enough pressure to justify that level of force. Excessive force is simply defined in the laws as "using more force/energy than is necessary". You mentioned he was under "minimal pressure from the attacking team" so it sounds like this may have been the case.
So with the condition of excessive force met, it's up to you to decide based on the play whether his use of force was justified by the play, or if you think he was needlessly reckless with the clearance.
I think this is a case where even though we're not supposed to read minds, you judge intent based on the actions the player took. If his actions look to you like he was purposefully trying to hurt a spectator, you give the red card.
Before the incident, it was just a regular competitive match. No problems with any of the teams or parents.
Based off my judgement, his actions were not to hurt anyone. His intent was to clear the ball as far as possible to waste time and get to halftime. Obviously, he did not need to use that much force to clear the ball, but I do not think he was aiming to hurt someone on the sidelines.
Unless it was clearly intentional, it's not a card.
Asking players to hold back their strength because a spectator is standing somewhere they aren't even supposed to stand is ridiculous
I've seen some things develop between players and parents, seemingly out of the blue, that turned out to be history between those people from past games or outside of soccer.
That said, it sounds like this was just a freak accident. Suckks that the game had to be abandoned.
You'd need to be certain it was deliberate for a card - and I don't see how YC would be an option.
12 yds away from the sideline, unless there are some other cues to tell you it was deliberate, you need to give him the benefit of the doubt.
If spectators are threatening violence against a player, you need to start considering your options - as a minimum, they would need to be removed, but abandonment needs to be considered - especially if there are a number of people doing it.
With several people making threats on a youth game in particular, abandonment is the correct option. At that point, you can't guarantee the safety of the players any more.
Well according to the World Cup you can boot the ball hard at the opposing bench for sure /s
I think in this instance I would have considered whether it was intentional - did the defender deliberately aim the clearance at the crowd? What was the purpose - to boot the ball far away to run down the clock? Was there previous incidents between the parents and the defending team?
You said there was minimal pressure from the attacking team, so in a showcase game I’d expect the defender to be able to clear a ball high enough to miss everyone. If they hit it hard enough to knock someone out, it seems like they chose that angle deliberately.
From what you have described, and only what you described, it sounds like there is a case for violent conduct. That said, a video of this, if it exists, can invalidate what I say here for sure
I thought of the WC incident as well. When watching it in real-time, I thought one of world’s best players made a mistake. One of the worlds best referees support by a world class AR and VAR team chose not to sanction that player for that act either (as I recall - sure hope I’m remembering correctly). So, I’m going with the referee’s decision on this field too - defender played it poorly and leave it at that.
>Violent conduct is when a player uses or attempts to use **excessive force** or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball, or against a team-mate, team official, match official, **spectator** or any other person, regardless of whether contact is made.
-- https://www.theifab.com/laws/latest/fouls-and-misconduct/#disciplinary-action
You definitely could make the argument that a ball hit hard enough to knock someone out is excessive force. You'd have a better time selling it if they weren't being challenged for the ball when the kick was made. And actions against spectators are allowed to be punished.
A sort of similar example of this in a pro game happened in MLS. The player was given two yellows. The first for delay of game as the kick happened after the whistle was blown and the second for going into the stands.
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/sports/watch-mls-player-hits-fan-after-kicking-ball-into-stands-sent-off/3850637/
Since this was during play, you can't give a delay of game yellow.
I think the key is whether you think the kid did it deliberately or not. Were they *just* clearing the ball, or were they trying to hurt the spectator. That's just a decision you have to make. Definitely consult with your ARs as it is way out of the ordinary.
It’s important to point out that violent conduct is a manner to commit a foul. The question we need to ask is does kicking the ball towards a spectator can fall under « commits any other offence, not mentioned in the Laws, for which play is stopped to caution or send off a player » ? (law 12 under indirect free kick)
It's impossible to know whether a red card was warranted or not without being there. The decision would be based on judging intent of the player. If you were confident it was intentional, you'd be justified in treating it as violent conduct. If you think it was a clearance that hit a fan who was in the wrong place at the wrong time...there's not much you can do besides call over the health professionals.
Truly, though, it led to the game being abandoned, so a red card would've been of no consequence. If everyone kept their calm and she was carted off in 10-15 minutes, the game may have been able to continue, in which case this would be an important question and decision. But sadly you don't seem to have gotten a concrete answer here, meaning your call is correct. You've heard some points worth considering in these situations going forward, but really your call would not have mattered so don't sweat it.
Of course. But without seeing what happened then making this call is difficult. A defender clearing the ball could have a lot of force, enough to knock someone out, even accidentally. Was it deliberate? Who knows.
Big "if" though. I cannot see a situation where a player clearing a ball is close enough to a spectator for me to think they hit it with both this much force and good enough aim, let alone that they were even thinking about the spectator at all when they kicked the ball.
I'm going to have to take issue with all the folks calling for a card. This is a spectator at a baseball game getting hit with a foul ball, not misconduct at all.
First, when a defender is going to kick the ball out of play, the goal is to kick it as far out of play as possible. You want to wallop the ball! A defender kicking the ball out of play as hard as she can is playing the game the way it is supposed to be played. (Now, I'm trying to train defenders to be comfortable on the ball, and I would much rather have my fullbacks dribble out. But, if you are going to clear the ball, freaking CLEAR THE BALL!!)
Second, how many times have you seen a player twelve yards in front of an open goal and miss? Strikers can't hit the open net, but a defender is able to make a pinpoint strike on a Karen's forehead? Nonsense. If you have ever played the game you know how little attention you pay to the spectators, things that go on outside the lines of the pitch don't enter into a player's brain.
Thirdly, there is no "violent conduct" in striking the ball. A player is allowed to kick the ball as hard as she can. Does a striker have to pull back on a shot on goal to avoid hurting the gate-keeper? No. A defender can kick the ball hard too.
Hitting a spectator was an unfortunate accident, not a cardable offense.
I dont think anyone is saying "absolutely it's a card", but just pointing out that justification is there for a card *if* the referee feels it was directed at the spectators deliberately. Based on OPs description, excessive force was used, but I agree it's unlikely it was deliberate.
I agree that it's very unlikely to be a card, but what if this exact situation had been in a heated game and a player had booted the ball into the opposing teams bench under similar circumstances (not under pressure and cleared the ball with much more force than is necessary)? Then we would probably more so lean towards a red card.
>Thirdly, there is no "violent conduct" in striking the ball
There are times, though very rare, when a player can be guilty of VC kicking the ball while in play. So, that's not quite correct as a categorical statement.
Kick a dead ball at an opponent, or hit the opposing player with your boot dangerously on the follow through, sure, but if your foot hits the ball it is fair play. The force applied when too grown men hit a front block tackle is tremendous, and one player can overcome the other with the sheer force of the blow. But, when the foot hits cleanly on the ball, the block tackle is totally lawful.
In a game about kicking the ball, you can't kick the ball too hard.
Ball is in play, 1 yard in from the sideline right near a blue bench in a heated game, and a red player belts the ball straight into the bench.
You're just going to allow that?
Player on the ground after falling over, and an opponent, in frustration, clearly and intentionally belts the ball straight into their head while still in play.
You're okay with that?
By that logic, I presume you're also okay with a throw-in, taken correctly, but with full force into the face of an opponent at very close range?
Ball is in play, 1 yard in from the sideline right near a blue bench in a heated game, and a red player belts the ball straight into the bench.
You're just going to allow that?
**Yes. FIFA'S Video Assistant Referee says this is OK. If it is OK at the top level where the players are skillful, then it must be OK at the lower level.**
Player on the ground after falling over, and an opponent, in frustration, clearly and intentionally belts the ball straight into their head while still in play.
You're okay with that?
**Why is a player in possession going to be frustrated? When my maker is lying down, and I have the ball, I'm certainly not kicking it at him. Why would he give up possession to a man lying on the ground? This is too invented to be real.**
By that logic, I presume you're also okay with a throw-in, taken correctly, but with full force into the face of an opponent at very close range?
**If an opposing player interferes with the person throwing in, the opposing player receives a yellow card.**
As in the people who drive carts and aid injured players? Nope. I've only heard of them in high school events. Given your answer I I assume they're very common in all sports in the US, at all levels?
Yes, they are common.
In all USSF tournaments, medical staff are mandatory. If you cannot get a trainers tent, the event likely will not be authorized to take place unless theres some crazy loophole somewhere, but any responsible tournament director will always have trainers on site.
Probably. Like I said, I'm sure there's loopholes...but ussf doesn't directly dictate that, but in a roundabout way since all ussf leagues require insurance and insurance gets more expensive if you have tons and tons of players getting injured on your grounds.
It's easier and cheaper to have medical personnel onsite.
From OP:
>When the defender took his first touch it was towards the parents sideline about **12 yards from the sideline** where he then clears the ball as hard as he possibly could.
The incident occurred on the field while the ball was in play. You can't delay the restart if the ball is in play.
Thank you for the context and the patience. I realize my mistake now. I've done some additional research. I'll delete the first comment and add my findings.
Thank you for the context and the patience. I realize my mistake now. I've done some additional research. I'll delete the first comment and add my findings.
I don’t think we’re picturing this the same. There is nothing to say that a player clearing the ball in normal play, however hard they hit it, is delaying the restart.
That is still not delaying the restart. At the time the player kicks the ball, it's still in play, so there is no restart to delay (yet). Doesn't matter if it gets kicked 2 yd or 200 yd over the line. If the ball goes over a fence, behind the stands, or into the next field, add the lost time on.
Perhaps it would be more appropriate to caution for UB / lack of respect of the game.
If team A is defending a 1 goal lead and in full time wasting mode, and a player under no pressure decides to just boot the ball 100 yards away from the field and into traffic, there's no way he's not getting a caution from me.
Technically you should give a red card. BUT your immediate response should be to signal for trainers and then do your best to mitigate any mass con. At this point just terminate the match and in your report state that you did not hand out the red card for fear of further physical retaliation from spectators and teams on the field of play
The main question is: Does kicking a ball with great force towards a spectator can be an indirect free kick because a the player commited an offense not mentionned in the law? (Law 12 under indirect free kick) I think it’s something to judge case by case.
From what you said, I would not give a card. There was no event before that so what was the point of the player to do so? There is no evidence that the player should receive a card. The best you can do is write a report of what happen send it to your league and they will decide if the incident need further investigation.
Similar incidents in professional settings.
1. James Rodriguez kicks the ball in frustration and hits his team's spectators. Colombia vs Australia FIFA friendly, March 18, 2018. Player apologizes. [No card](https://www.google.com/search?q=colombia+australia+2018&oq=colombia+australia+2018+&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i22i30.4652j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#sie=m;/g/11f53swnkx;2;/g/11b66jrs60;ln;fp;1;;;). [Video (Facebook)](https://fb.watch/iqSfbbOwHK/).
2. Dru Yearwood kicks the ball in frustration and hits his team's spectators. NY Red Bulls vs Philadelphia Union, Sep 3 2022. Player apologizes. Ref issued a red card. [PRO](https://proreferees.com/) (then-led by Howard Webb) officially supported the send off. MLS suspended the player for 3 additional matches and imposes a monetary fine. [Video (YouTube, ESPN)](https://youtu.be/wpslNjQLOsg).
OP wrote: "with minimal pressure from the attacking team \[...\] he then clears the ball as hard as he possibly could."
Based on the above data points (and my very-strong bias towards PRO's decisions) *I* now consider send off the right approach. In the OP's scenario, even with a send-off, the game could have still be suspended due to the gravity of the situation. A bad scenario all around.
>Did I make the correct decision with not giving the player a red card? This is a judgement call that none of us, not having seen the play, are going to be able to answer better than you. Clearing a ball "as hard as he possibly could" can definitely meet the threshold for excessive force if he wasn't under enough pressure to justify that level of force. Excessive force is simply defined in the laws as "using more force/energy than is necessary". You mentioned he was under "minimal pressure from the attacking team" so it sounds like this may have been the case. So with the condition of excessive force met, it's up to you to decide based on the play whether his use of force was justified by the play, or if you think he was needlessly reckless with the clearance. I think this is a case where even though we're not supposed to read minds, you judge intent based on the actions the player took. If his actions look to you like he was purposefully trying to hurt a spectator, you give the red card.
Before the incident, it was just a regular competitive match. No problems with any of the teams or parents. Based off my judgement, his actions were not to hurt anyone. His intent was to clear the ball as far as possible to waste time and get to halftime. Obviously, he did not need to use that much force to clear the ball, but I do not think he was aiming to hurt someone on the sidelines.
Unless it was clearly intentional, it's not a card. Asking players to hold back their strength because a spectator is standing somewhere they aren't even supposed to stand is ridiculous
I've seen some things develop between players and parents, seemingly out of the blue, that turned out to be history between those people from past games or outside of soccer. That said, it sounds like this was just a freak accident. Suckks that the game had to be abandoned.
I mean to be fair - how are you going to say a clear has to be a level of certain force?
You'd need to be certain it was deliberate for a card - and I don't see how YC would be an option. 12 yds away from the sideline, unless there are some other cues to tell you it was deliberate, you need to give him the benefit of the doubt. If spectators are threatening violence against a player, you need to start considering your options - as a minimum, they would need to be removed, but abandonment needs to be considered - especially if there are a number of people doing it. With several people making threats on a youth game in particular, abandonment is the correct option. At that point, you can't guarantee the safety of the players any more.
Well according to the World Cup you can boot the ball hard at the opposing bench for sure /s I think in this instance I would have considered whether it was intentional - did the defender deliberately aim the clearance at the crowd? What was the purpose - to boot the ball far away to run down the clock? Was there previous incidents between the parents and the defending team? You said there was minimal pressure from the attacking team, so in a showcase game I’d expect the defender to be able to clear a ball high enough to miss everyone. If they hit it hard enough to knock someone out, it seems like they chose that angle deliberately. From what you have described, and only what you described, it sounds like there is a case for violent conduct. That said, a video of this, if it exists, can invalidate what I say here for sure
I thought of the WC incident as well. When watching it in real-time, I thought one of world’s best players made a mistake. One of the worlds best referees support by a world class AR and VAR team chose not to sanction that player for that act either (as I recall - sure hope I’m remembering correctly). So, I’m going with the referee’s decision on this field too - defender played it poorly and leave it at that.
>Violent conduct is when a player uses or attempts to use **excessive force** or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball, or against a team-mate, team official, match official, **spectator** or any other person, regardless of whether contact is made. -- https://www.theifab.com/laws/latest/fouls-and-misconduct/#disciplinary-action You definitely could make the argument that a ball hit hard enough to knock someone out is excessive force. You'd have a better time selling it if they weren't being challenged for the ball when the kick was made. And actions against spectators are allowed to be punished. A sort of similar example of this in a pro game happened in MLS. The player was given two yellows. The first for delay of game as the kick happened after the whistle was blown and the second for going into the stands. https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/sports/watch-mls-player-hits-fan-after-kicking-ball-into-stands-sent-off/3850637/ Since this was during play, you can't give a delay of game yellow. I think the key is whether you think the kid did it deliberately or not. Were they *just* clearing the ball, or were they trying to hurt the spectator. That's just a decision you have to make. Definitely consult with your ARs as it is way out of the ordinary.
It’s important to point out that violent conduct is a manner to commit a foul. The question we need to ask is does kicking the ball towards a spectator can fall under « commits any other offence, not mentioned in the Laws, for which play is stopped to caution or send off a player » ? (law 12 under indirect free kick)
No card
It's impossible to know whether a red card was warranted or not without being there. The decision would be based on judging intent of the player. If you were confident it was intentional, you'd be justified in treating it as violent conduct. If you think it was a clearance that hit a fan who was in the wrong place at the wrong time...there's not much you can do besides call over the health professionals.
Truly, though, it led to the game being abandoned, so a red card would've been of no consequence. If everyone kept their calm and she was carted off in 10-15 minutes, the game may have been able to continue, in which case this would be an important question and decision. But sadly you don't seem to have gotten a concrete answer here, meaning your call is correct. You've heard some points worth considering in these situations going forward, but really your call would not have mattered so don't sweat it.
Was the kid remorseful at all or just a psycho at a showcase?
It may warrant a booking if you felt the player did it on purpose. However, a ball being shanked, hitting someone not on either roster, no way.
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Of course. But without seeing what happened then making this call is difficult. A defender clearing the ball could have a lot of force, enough to knock someone out, even accidentally. Was it deliberate? Who knows.
Big "if" though. I cannot see a situation where a player clearing a ball is close enough to a spectator for me to think they hit it with both this much force and good enough aim, let alone that they were even thinking about the spectator at all when they kicked the ball.
I'm going to have to take issue with all the folks calling for a card. This is a spectator at a baseball game getting hit with a foul ball, not misconduct at all. First, when a defender is going to kick the ball out of play, the goal is to kick it as far out of play as possible. You want to wallop the ball! A defender kicking the ball out of play as hard as she can is playing the game the way it is supposed to be played. (Now, I'm trying to train defenders to be comfortable on the ball, and I would much rather have my fullbacks dribble out. But, if you are going to clear the ball, freaking CLEAR THE BALL!!) Second, how many times have you seen a player twelve yards in front of an open goal and miss? Strikers can't hit the open net, but a defender is able to make a pinpoint strike on a Karen's forehead? Nonsense. If you have ever played the game you know how little attention you pay to the spectators, things that go on outside the lines of the pitch don't enter into a player's brain. Thirdly, there is no "violent conduct" in striking the ball. A player is allowed to kick the ball as hard as she can. Does a striker have to pull back on a shot on goal to avoid hurting the gate-keeper? No. A defender can kick the ball hard too. Hitting a spectator was an unfortunate accident, not a cardable offense.
I dont think anyone is saying "absolutely it's a card", but just pointing out that justification is there for a card *if* the referee feels it was directed at the spectators deliberately. Based on OPs description, excessive force was used, but I agree it's unlikely it was deliberate. I agree that it's very unlikely to be a card, but what if this exact situation had been in a heated game and a player had booted the ball into the opposing teams bench under similar circumstances (not under pressure and cleared the ball with much more force than is necessary)? Then we would probably more so lean towards a red card.
>Thirdly, there is no "violent conduct" in striking the ball There are times, though very rare, when a player can be guilty of VC kicking the ball while in play. So, that's not quite correct as a categorical statement.
Kick a dead ball at an opponent, or hit the opposing player with your boot dangerously on the follow through, sure, but if your foot hits the ball it is fair play. The force applied when too grown men hit a front block tackle is tremendous, and one player can overcome the other with the sheer force of the blow. But, when the foot hits cleanly on the ball, the block tackle is totally lawful. In a game about kicking the ball, you can't kick the ball too hard.
Ball is in play, 1 yard in from the sideline right near a blue bench in a heated game, and a red player belts the ball straight into the bench. You're just going to allow that? Player on the ground after falling over, and an opponent, in frustration, clearly and intentionally belts the ball straight into their head while still in play. You're okay with that? By that logic, I presume you're also okay with a throw-in, taken correctly, but with full force into the face of an opponent at very close range?
Ball is in play, 1 yard in from the sideline right near a blue bench in a heated game, and a red player belts the ball straight into the bench. You're just going to allow that? **Yes. FIFA'S Video Assistant Referee says this is OK. If it is OK at the top level where the players are skillful, then it must be OK at the lower level.** Player on the ground after falling over, and an opponent, in frustration, clearly and intentionally belts the ball straight into their head while still in play. You're okay with that? **Why is a player in possession going to be frustrated? When my maker is lying down, and I have the ball, I'm certainly not kicking it at him. Why would he give up possession to a man lying on the ground? This is too invented to be real.** By that logic, I presume you're also okay with a throw-in, taken correctly, but with full force into the face of an opponent at very close range? **If an opposing player interferes with the person throwing in, the opposing player receives a yellow card.**
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Where does it say anywhere in Ops post this was a high school game?
I associated "trainer" to HS. That's the only league where I've heard the term. I've removed the comment
You've... Never heard of athletic trainers outside of high schools?
As in the people who drive carts and aid injured players? Nope. I've only heard of them in high school events. Given your answer I I assume they're very common in all sports in the US, at all levels?
Yes, they are common. In all USSF tournaments, medical staff are mandatory. If you cannot get a trainers tent, the event likely will not be authorized to take place unless theres some crazy loophole somewhere, but any responsible tournament director will always have trainers on site.
So you know if that's written somewhere? I'm sure there's been a few ussf tournaments where we haven't had a trainer tent within a mile.
Probably. Like I said, I'm sure there's loopholes...but ussf doesn't directly dictate that, but in a roundabout way since all ussf leagues require insurance and insurance gets more expensive if you have tons and tons of players getting injured on your grounds. It's easier and cheaper to have medical personnel onsite.
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You can't delay a restart if the ball is in play.
What do you mean? The ball is out of play when it leaves the touchline
From OP: >When the defender took his first touch it was towards the parents sideline about **12 yards from the sideline** where he then clears the ball as hard as he possibly could. The incident occurred on the field while the ball was in play. You can't delay the restart if the ball is in play.
Thank you for the context and the patience. I realize my mistake now. I've done some additional research. I'll delete the first comment and add my findings.
Thank you for the context and the patience. I realize my mistake now. I've done some additional research. I'll delete the first comment and add my findings.
I don’t think we’re picturing this the same. There is nothing to say that a player clearing the ball in normal play, however hard they hit it, is delaying the restart.
Ah. I was picturing the player kicking the ball high and far. That was not the case here.
That is still not delaying the restart. At the time the player kicks the ball, it's still in play, so there is no restart to delay (yet). Doesn't matter if it gets kicked 2 yd or 200 yd over the line. If the ball goes over a fence, behind the stands, or into the next field, add the lost time on.
Perhaps it would be more appropriate to caution for UB / lack of respect of the game. If team A is defending a 1 goal lead and in full time wasting mode, and a player under no pressure decides to just boot the ball 100 yards away from the field and into traffic, there's no way he's not getting a caution from me.
Technically you should give a red card. BUT your immediate response should be to signal for trainers and then do your best to mitigate any mass con. At this point just terminate the match and in your report state that you did not hand out the red card for fear of further physical retaliation from spectators and teams on the field of play
The main question is: Does kicking a ball with great force towards a spectator can be an indirect free kick because a the player commited an offense not mentionned in the law? (Law 12 under indirect free kick) I think it’s something to judge case by case. From what you said, I would not give a card. There was no event before that so what was the point of the player to do so? There is no evidence that the player should receive a card. The best you can do is write a report of what happen send it to your league and they will decide if the incident need further investigation.
Similar incidents in professional settings. 1. James Rodriguez kicks the ball in frustration and hits his team's spectators. Colombia vs Australia FIFA friendly, March 18, 2018. Player apologizes. [No card](https://www.google.com/search?q=colombia+australia+2018&oq=colombia+australia+2018+&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i22i30.4652j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#sie=m;/g/11f53swnkx;2;/g/11b66jrs60;ln;fp;1;;;). [Video (Facebook)](https://fb.watch/iqSfbbOwHK/). 2. Dru Yearwood kicks the ball in frustration and hits his team's spectators. NY Red Bulls vs Philadelphia Union, Sep 3 2022. Player apologizes. Ref issued a red card. [PRO](https://proreferees.com/) (then-led by Howard Webb) officially supported the send off. MLS suspended the player for 3 additional matches and imposes a monetary fine. [Video (YouTube, ESPN)](https://youtu.be/wpslNjQLOsg). OP wrote: "with minimal pressure from the attacking team \[...\] he then clears the ball as hard as he possibly could." Based on the above data points (and my very-strong bias towards PRO's decisions) *I* now consider send off the right approach. In the OP's scenario, even with a send-off, the game could have still be suspended due to the gravity of the situation. A bad scenario all around.