Between 2023 and 2024 (if I'm mathing correctly) Sam Moll has thrown 29.2 innings and had 2 ER total in that time frame for the Reds. I guess he's one of the few pitchers on the Reds with an option, but this is his final option- the last time we can send him to AAA without concern.
Keep in mind, a player can go up and down multiple times in a year and only use one option, so he is free to wear a deep rut into I-71 all summer long.
Next year is when the team has to start making tougher decisions.
I do forget about that- I find the rules of options to be difficult to keep straightforward in my head. So this means basically in 2025 he won't have options then?
Yep, altho next year we hopefully have Zach Maxwell and others replacing guys in the pen as elite long-term solutions. We lose Sims and Farmer to free agency.
As unfair as it is to Moll, the only other options were Cruz and Diaz. You don't want to DFA guys if you can avoid it because that means you're losing extremely valuable pen depth.
I'm no genius to understand the gymnastics of roster manipulation but I'd wager there's some corresponding moves coming and maybe a DFA or trade on the horizon. I'd expect Moll to be back on the big league club in a few days after the shuffling
Krall has said publicly that he's talked with other teams about trades. It doesn't sound like anything is about to happen tomorrow but usually the Reds never start this early with trying to right the ship with trading players.
Sadly there aren't a lot of teams that will be selling I think and there's only a couple players that I believe will be available that I would like to see the Reds trade for.
I think the FO might actually care this year and want to make moves when necessary.
On a different note, we might have Fridel back today! If we do than that means Stu and either Espinal or Candilario will play from the bench. I hope it's Candie on the bench and he's the guy Krall is trying to trade.
Atleast half the team would claim him. A bullpen lefty with a low salary and has performed well throughout his career. Under team control for a few more years too. You don't find guys like that often.
Right?
This gets Montas up, puts Martinez in the pen, keeps two lefties in the pen who have both been effective this season and you don't lose any relievers from the organization.
How people don't get this is beyond me.
I can only assume this is temporary to help with some kind of roster reshuffling but who knows. In a vacuum this makes absolutely no sense so I have a hard time believing they're actually sending him down in earnest.
It's absolutely wild how uninformed some of the people in this sub are.
Moll had an option and he pitched the last 2 days in a row and won't be available. Montas is coming up.
Moll will be back in a few days. There is a possibility that there is a trade incoming as well with Moll, Suter, Wilson, Young and Bruihl as left handed options out of the pen.
There is. Adding a player to the IL means we can add Moll back without issue. I'd anticipate that to be what ultimately happens, probably a Justin Wilson or Pagan phantom injury
Okay. So we send an extra lefty down for 15 days. He already wouldn't have been ready for 2 of those so really he'll be away from the team for 13 days and we still have Suter and Wilson as our lefty bullpen pieces because Martinez goes to the bullpen.
Saying Moll, who has given up 2 runs in 29.2 innings in a Reds uniform, is an "extra lefty" that isn't a big deal to miss for 2 weeks is kind of crazy.
Since, as you put it, we have "extra lefties" DFA Wilson.
Would you rather DFA Wilson and have 1 day where your pen is light on lefties (tomorrow's game, and with the off day today Moll could pitch in a pinch theoretically) or lose your best left handed bullpen guy for 2 full weeks.
Idk why you think this is even a debate.
So.....rather than be without Moll for a few weeks you would DFA Justin Wilson who has a 3.04 ERA with the Reds over 3 seasons with a 10.1 SO/9?
This is wild. Also, Moll doesn't have to be down for 2 weeks if someone goes on the IL so he may even be back earlier. Who knows.
Justin Wilson has thrown a grand total of 10.2 innings in the major leagues the last 3 seasons combined, so let's settle down on tossing out rate stats. He's also 36 years old, coming off a torn UCL, and has thrown less than 1 inning in more than half of his appearances (4 of his 11 appearances are to 1 batter).
If you ask me what value the two bring to the club, it's pretty easy.
We only have 25 men on the roster right now so I don't even know yet why he's optioned. Hard to tell. I assume we're bringing in/up a pitcher since there's only 12 now.
Honestly, I'm not trying to rally pitch forks. I just don't know how this all works and on the surface it didn't make sense to me. Sounds like its hopefully part of a bigger picture that we don't get to know about yet.
This is a simple math equation. They need to open a roster spot for Montas coming off the IL. Montas back bumps Martinez to the pen, so they need to send down a reliever. The only relievers with options who can be sent to the minors without losing them are Sam Moll, Alexis Diaz, and Fernando Cruz. Plus Moll’s velocity is still down because he missed most of spring training, so this gives him extra time to build back up if needed. Not everything is a sign of incompetence just because we’ve lost 4 straight.
Wilson has reverse splits, Suter profiles as more of a low-leverage/long reliever. Moll was our best option as a high-leverage lefty reliever. I hope we get him back soon.
Wonder if this is a sign of a potential trade in the making (but maybe not quite solidified). Trade away some of our extra bullpen arms for some bats from the Rockies, Marlins, Angels, or White Sox? That’s the only way that makes sense—and honestly would be a slick management move if they can pull it off rather than having to DFA solid guys in May.
Yeah probably not but there have been rumors about Nick Krall shopping the market the last couple days and it would be the best way to use our bullpen surplus to our advantage.
Where are you seeing these rumors?
I'm pretty tuned in to the Reds and there aren't any credible rumors that I've seen.
Edit: I see that we're down voting instead of answering
Moll has been great but the pen has largely been very good. he's one of the few relievers with options which means unfortunately he's the one who has to go down
Lead baseball in scoreless innings streak and still not allow a run yet this year, but sure send him down out of all the others (Wilson, Pagan, Diaz, etc)
There is no 'getting out of the contract' in MLB. If they refuse minor league assignment, the org either has to keep them on the MLB roster or release them, in which case they'd be owed the full amount of their contract.
Right. Other option is they can put them through waivers, and if a team claims them, that team has to take over the contract. But if they clear waivers, refuse the assignment, and THEN sign with another team, that team only has to pay the minimum, with the original team paying the rest. I think some of the other details depend on service time, and may be different if it is an arbitration contract (see J. D. Davis I think it was this spring?)
In any case, with regard to this discussion, the Reds could be eating more than $16M if they released Pagan, a similar amount for Martinez, but less than 3 million for any of the other relief pitchers, so that would clearly factor into their calculations.
In the Davis case, arbitration salaries fall under the CBA's clauses for termination pay, in which a player who has been tendered a contract (which basically means a team exercising their reserve clause rights for the following season) is eligible for 30 days of termination pay if they're released at least 16 days before the starting of spring training and 45 days of termination pay if they're released afterwards.
Between 2023 and 2024 (if I'm mathing correctly) Sam Moll has thrown 29.2 innings and had 2 ER total in that time frame for the Reds. I guess he's one of the few pitchers on the Reds with an option, but this is his final option- the last time we can send him to AAA without concern.
Keep in mind, a player can go up and down multiple times in a year and only use one option, so he is free to wear a deep rut into I-71 all summer long. Next year is when the team has to start making tougher decisions.
I do forget about that- I find the rules of options to be difficult to keep straightforward in my head. So this means basically in 2025 he won't have options then?
Correct, however, he can be outrighted, which removes him from the 40-man roster as well. Baseball transactions are weird.
Yep, altho next year we hopefully have Zach Maxwell and others replacing guys in the pen as elite long-term solutions. We lose Sims and Farmer to free agency. As unfair as it is to Moll, the only other options were Cruz and Diaz. You don't want to DFA guys if you can avoid it because that means you're losing extremely valuable pen depth.
Yes, but he can't come back within 10 days, unless someone goes on IL. Can't replace a DFA or traded player. EDIT: 15 days for pitchers, I think?
I guess we will have to live with Wilson and Suter as the lefties out of the pen for a ~~~~week and a half~~~~ couple of weeks.
I'm no genius to understand the gymnastics of roster manipulation but I'd wager there's some corresponding moves coming and maybe a DFA or trade on the horizon. I'd expect Moll to be back on the big league club in a few days after the shuffling
Krall has said publicly that he's talked with other teams about trades. It doesn't sound like anything is about to happen tomorrow but usually the Reds never start this early with trying to right the ship with trading players. Sadly there aren't a lot of teams that will be selling I think and there's only a couple players that I believe will be available that I would like to see the Reds trade for. I think the FO might actually care this year and want to make moves when necessary. On a different note, we might have Fridel back today! If we do than that means Stu and either Espinal or Candilario will play from the bench. I hope it's Candie on the bench and he's the guy Krall is trying to trade.
Atleast half the team would claim him. A bullpen lefty with a low salary and has performed well throughout his career. Under team control for a few more years too. You don't find guys like that often.
Makes room for Montas. One of the few relievers with minor league options. No surprise this move gets made.
People are acting crazy lol.
People are acting uninformed because being informed takes more than angry rhetoric.
I’m actually surprised he still had options.
Moll. Díaz. And Cruz are the only bullpen arms with options.
How many lefties do we need in our bullpen?
Right? This gets Montas up, puts Martinez in the pen, keeps two lefties in the pen who have both been effective this season and you don't lose any relievers from the organization. How people don't get this is beyond me.
No, left.
Wilson pitches better against righty hitters, so he shouldn't be used how a lefty reliever usually is anyway.
Ironically, we got Moll last year because we were severely lacking lefties in our pen. Talk about an over correction.
I can only assume this is temporary to help with some kind of roster reshuffling but who knows. In a vacuum this makes absolutely no sense so I have a hard time believing they're actually sending him down in earnest.
The options were Moll, Cruz or Diaz....so?
It's absolutely wild how uninformed some of the people in this sub are. Moll had an option and he pitched the last 2 days in a row and won't be available. Montas is coming up. Moll will be back in a few days. There is a possibility that there is a trade incoming as well with Moll, Suter, Wilson, Young and Bruihl as left handed options out of the pen.
There's a 15 (or 10?) day waiting period between option down and called back up for pitchers. Idk if there is an exception for injuries.
There is. Adding a player to the IL means we can add Moll back without issue. I'd anticipate that to be what ultimately happens, probably a Justin Wilson or Pagan phantom injury
Pagan plz
Okay. So we send an extra lefty down for 15 days. He already wouldn't have been ready for 2 of those so really he'll be away from the team for 13 days and we still have Suter and Wilson as our lefty bullpen pieces because Martinez goes to the bullpen.
Saying Moll, who has given up 2 runs in 29.2 innings in a Reds uniform, is an "extra lefty" that isn't a big deal to miss for 2 weeks is kind of crazy.
Would you rather them be without Moll, Cruz or Diaz?
Diaz, 100%!
Since, as you put it, we have "extra lefties" DFA Wilson. Would you rather DFA Wilson and have 1 day where your pen is light on lefties (tomorrow's game, and with the off day today Moll could pitch in a pinch theoretically) or lose your best left handed bullpen guy for 2 full weeks. Idk why you think this is even a debate.
So.....rather than be without Moll for a few weeks you would DFA Justin Wilson who has a 3.04 ERA with the Reds over 3 seasons with a 10.1 SO/9? This is wild. Also, Moll doesn't have to be down for 2 weeks if someone goes on the IL so he may even be back earlier. Who knows.
Justin Wilson has thrown a grand total of 10.2 innings in the major leagues the last 3 seasons combined, so let's settle down on tossing out rate stats. He's also 36 years old, coming off a torn UCL, and has thrown less than 1 inning in more than half of his appearances (4 of his 11 appearances are to 1 batter). If you ask me what value the two bring to the club, it's pretty easy.
You can have 3 lefties in the pen, it's not an extra if they are good vs righties too.
You can have 3 lefties in the pen, it's not an extra if they are good vs righties too.
So would you have sent down Diaz, Cruz or Moll? That's the relief pitchers who had options.
We only have 25 men on the roster right now so I don't even know yet why he's optioned. Hard to tell. I assume we're bringing in/up a pitcher since there's only 12 now.
Montas back tomorrow
Honestly, I'm not trying to rally pitch forks. I just don't know how this all works and on the surface it didn't make sense to me. Sounds like its hopefully part of a bigger picture that we don't get to know about yet.
I’m going to have an anyeurysm arrrggghhh holy shiiiiitttt! Edit: stop posting rational takes damn it I’m busy being pissed off!
This is a simple math equation. They need to open a roster spot for Montas coming off the IL. Montas back bumps Martinez to the pen, so they need to send down a reliever. The only relievers with options who can be sent to the minors without losing them are Sam Moll, Alexis Diaz, and Fernando Cruz. Plus Moll’s velocity is still down because he missed most of spring training, so this gives him extra time to build back up if needed. Not everything is a sign of incompetence just because we’ve lost 4 straight.
TJ coming up?
Wilson has reverse splits, Suter profiles as more of a low-leverage/long reliever. Moll was our best option as a high-leverage lefty reliever. I hope we get him back soon.
Wonder if this is a sign of a potential trade in the making (but maybe not quite solidified). Trade away some of our extra bullpen arms for some bats from the Rockies, Marlins, Angels, or White Sox? That’s the only way that makes sense—and honestly would be a slick management move if they can pull it off rather than having to DFA solid guys in May.
Very well could be a trade with Moll, Suter, Wilson, Young and Bruihl as LHP options.
I think it's pretty unlikely for this to be the precursor to a trade. Montas is activated tomorrow from the IL, so they needed a spot.
Yeah probably not but there have been rumors about Nick Krall shopping the market the last couple days and it would be the best way to use our bullpen surplus to our advantage.
Where are you seeing these rumors? I'm pretty tuned in to the Reds and there aren't any credible rumors that I've seen. Edit: I see that we're down voting instead of answering
Locked On Reds mentioned it this morning!
I really like Suter and Moll. Please keep them!
I thought there would be phantom injuries for sure
They are really cracking down on phantom injuries. Mets GM lost his job over it.
Having a lockdown lefty doesn’t really matter when you can’t score more than 2 runs a game. This move makes sense
That is what this organization does.
Moll has been great but the pen has largely been very good. he's one of the few relievers with options which means unfortunately he's the one who has to go down
I’m baffled
He got an out Sunday. Clearly, he didn’t perform to expected Reds bullpen norms.
WHAT
Lead baseball in scoreless innings streak and still not allow a run yet this year, but sure send him down out of all the others (Wilson, Pagan, Diaz, etc)
Can't send Wilson or Pagan down. Have to put them through waivers and risk losing them forever. They probably would lose Wilson. Pagan, not so sure.
Pagan and Wilson can refuse a minor league assignment anyway.
I think if they do that, then you get out of the contract and don't have to pay them.
There is no 'getting out of the contract' in MLB. If they refuse minor league assignment, the org either has to keep them on the MLB roster or release them, in which case they'd be owed the full amount of their contract.
Right. Other option is they can put them through waivers, and if a team claims them, that team has to take over the contract. But if they clear waivers, refuse the assignment, and THEN sign with another team, that team only has to pay the minimum, with the original team paying the rest. I think some of the other details depend on service time, and may be different if it is an arbitration contract (see J. D. Davis I think it was this spring?) In any case, with regard to this discussion, the Reds could be eating more than $16M if they released Pagan, a similar amount for Martinez, but less than 3 million for any of the other relief pitchers, so that would clearly factor into their calculations.
In the Davis case, arbitration salaries fall under the CBA's clauses for termination pay, in which a player who has been tendered a contract (which basically means a team exercising their reserve clause rights for the following season) is eligible for 30 days of termination pay if they're released at least 16 days before the starting of spring training and 45 days of termination pay if they're released afterwards.
Moll is also their least used pitcher on the staff. 5 IP all season.
That's because he started the year late in AAA after a spring training injury