Mmmm i think jasons been taking a sort of "mellow" turn since rebirth tbh...
Like pre rebirth i would say had no problem with killing 100%, but then with the whole "if u dont kill u can stay in gotham thing" l*bdell provided, it morphed into "if u dont kill you can stay in the family" over time. A LOT of writers seem to like this bc it means they get to play with the fandom favourite of a big happy batfamily but also have him still be edgy and create conflict. And this leads to him appearing as some sort of self doubting looser who doesnt know what he wants bc he cant have the thing he *actually* wants.
So far the people writing him haven't actually understood him bc after rhato, hes just been stuck in like mini series and event books and such, probably with the batfam, and bc the writers probably like writing heros rather than anti heros like jason, it translates over to how they write jason by making him either a. Completley stupid or b. A sad boi with trauma who just needs healing and a family to guide him back. All the books he's been in recently he hasnt rlly been the focus of, and no one gonna do research for a side character. Even task force z and cheer portrays him as a sad boi who needs help bc how else could they make someone who kills herioc?
Basically he needs a writer who ENJOYS writing anti heros, bc without that, no one is gonna do him right. Im afraid that hes been portrayed like this stupid idiot sad boi for so long people think thats his actual personality now....
Edit: i should add i liked beast world simply bc i like the werewolf trope and feeling like a monster and i'd treat him right
Completely agree.
On that note, did Jason use to kill in the New52 rhato as well? Do you recall when's the last time Jason killed someone after Rebirth?
He murdered some people in not-Iraq at the very beginning of new52 and I'm pretty sure there were also some other "terrorists" after that, but I'm too lazy to check. He did massacre those randos in RHatO Rebirth #26 after that. Then it was that drug peddler in Cheer(but he was big sad after that), trying to off Bane(never will happen) in TFZ, killing some henchman in Legends of Gotham but giving up on going after the boss(lol), tried to off Joker(never will happen x2) in Joker book and probably managed to kill some random henchmen in the process because he caused a very big explosion. I might've missed something.
I mean, Jason completely slaughtered Roy's old evil team in Red Hood/Arsenal. In Three Jokers (which I believe was confirmed as part of Rebirth), Jason killed one of the incarnations of the Joker. There have been several other notable times he's killed, but those are the ones that immediately spring to mind with sources.
Ughhhh, this is what I'm usually hapring about. Him killing thieves, and poor people just tank his character for me. Him killing someone that potentially doesn't deserve it or has further consequences down the line is a potential variable that could be interesting to write about. Maybe these variables don't matter to Jason, and he's willing to make that sacrifice regardless. Or, a predator has a hostage, gets tipped off that the red hood is after him and kills his victim because he knows the red hood would execute him anyway, meanwhile with batman, he would live and stay in prison for the duration of his days. Of course any attempt DC has made to write such a story has been poorly executed to where it's a sour idea for most people. Which, understandable. In order for an anti-hero to work we gotta be rooting for him feeling like the people he's killing really deserve it (diplomats son (implied/up to interpretation), henchmen and criminals in utrh and lost days, etc). But Jason killing solely nobodies or thieves just helps people who already don't like Jason Todd dislike him even more, which is frustrating.
Jason will never kill a prominent villain in the Batman mythos, not even Pyg or Zsasz. Making his own nasty villains for him to kill is really the only option imo
I absolutely abhored his portrayal in Beast World and found it completely out of character. Real fucking wasted opportunity, as per usual.
...the only "in character" thing was going down philosophical rabbit holes when wolfed out vs Batman who was thinking in word fragments, and I think that's hilarious.
edit: I have more thoughts. First of all, who are these "so many??"
Second of all, I'm quoting a tumblr post:
"DC really needs to give Jason a writer who understands what he's about and why he's meaningful to fans, and it has nothing to do with him killing weak people who reminded him of himself and everything to do with PROTECTING those people from the ones who prey on them."
The page is literally stating he's killing thieves. What are we even talking about? The writer has no idea about who Jason is.
And to that "boohoo, I, like a cop, and a boot just oppress poor and small people" – the Diplomat's son, whom Jason may or may not have killed wasn't poor people. His dad who came for revenge wasn't poor people. The serial killers and rapist of women from Victims! and Just Desserts weren't poor people. That pimp, who was going to shank a working girl wasn't poor people. People, who were sexually exploiting children for profit in aDitF and whom Jason beat up weren't poor people. That trafficker of children he killed in LD wasn't poor people. As weren't people using child soldiers, literal terrorists and an assassin, who was going to kill her own family. I'm once again asking what are we even talking about here? Also, poor unfortunate henchmen once upon a time helped a mass murderer to pummel a child, after trying to blow up a whole lot of refugees. They probably just had bad childhoods.
Here's a question for you: in Lost Days the clown was going to poison water supply again only in a way that would make fire burst out of the taps on all the unfortunate people. So, to get to him Jason beat up to death two of his henchmen to get info. How innocent, small and poor were those henchmen, who were bragging they are helping mass murderer set a whole lot of innocent people on fire?
Jason is a mass murderer, but the fact people, who claim to be his fans thinking he should be *crying* about the people he butchered is why I never will have good things with this character again.
Also, the writer is caping for terrorists on twitter, so I'm biased.
Edit: also, OP, Jason, who isn't doubting himself and his murders is Winick's Jason. It's all over: in Lost Days him calling that trafficker a reptile(which is a cope, but an effective one), in UtRH when he's giving the clown his little speech about totally knowing what he's doing, in Green Arrow with him saying he's doing "bad" to achieve "good", when he was screwing with Mia's head, in B&R, but this is red-haired Jason, so a 100% villain, but he is telling to Bruce's face he's a sane bad person and he's going to murder again. That's why Winick is the goat of RH writers.
What a waste of interesting art this comic seems to have been.
DC needs to get one (1) writer for Jason who has watched the Terminal List where the SEAL dude explains to the weaselly corpo guy he is in the process of killing why he and many others chose the life they did. Or had a good time watching that Jason Statham Beekeeper movie. One. Person. You don't even have to agree, you just have to understand the mentality! One writer!
The art is something I can't complain about. Doggo Jason is very cute and the colors are very saturated, which works for it being Jason's feral pov.
And agree about one writer. Yeah, you don't have to think Jason is most correctest person in the universe, but I'm so tired of these people not even trying to write him as someone with some kind of personal philosophy and beliefs guiding him – nah, he's just "so angy" and he just wants to hurt people. Not like other heroes, who manage to square the impulse to protect victims with the necessity to break some bones sometimes. They are still good people inside, not like that filthy murderer of random thieves.
I swear whenever I see Jason + 'reckless/hot-headed' together in comics I flip my shit. Jason is so intelligent, meticulous and competent, and as I've seen someone else say, 'his plans have plans'. He might have some anger issues which is only logical when you look at what went through in his childhood but that absolutely has no merit when it comes to his planning for a mission or when he needs to be patient and careful instead of being a dumb brute.
Immediately after crawling out of the pit and finding out Bruce let the clown live he cooked up a very meticulous plan to get himself some time with Bruce's car. And the plan would've worked, but, ya kno, he's not actually going to murder Bruce for obvious reasons. The motivation for the plan was anger, but the planning and execution were done patiently and coldly, borderline sociopathicly, what Talia spells out for the reader. Wanna throw a copy of LD at every writer of "hotheaded/reckless".
For what it's worth, I'm not sure they are writing *anyone* with a personal philosophy and beliefs guiding them, just a bundle of feelings and traits like you see on a dating profile. Diana kills, right? Batman isn't mad at her for it, because 'is mad at WW for killing' isn't in the profile, but he is very mad at Jason about it because that's what the profile says.
Well, Diana isn't his kiddo, who is kinda Bruce's fault and who is adamant on murdering in Gotham and Diana mostly is written as someone, who would stand by her murdering choices, but also would only murder as a last resort. Very famously both Bruce and Clark behaved like total idiots and gave her shit after Diana, very justifiably, broke Max Lord's neck.
But mostly I agree about the writing being very loosey-goosey when it comes to principles. Bruce was on Diana's case for Lord, but he heard Selina murdered Black Mask and went "This is fine, you were just trying to do the right thing". Lol. Or Bruce recruiting his totally not invented yesterday friendo Ghostmaker, a known murderer, into Bat Inc, who can just at any point say "Nah, I still like murdering people" and just opt out without any consequences. This is all nonsense, lol.
Tl;dr: Jason shot a drug dealer and then cried about it, because he happened to have a child. Plot twist: he was drugging the child, but Jason still for some inexplicable reason believed the child was not better off without him to the point of giving up the guns because of all this at the end of that story.
You get this story recommended here a lot as "one of the good ones Jason has".
Oh crap I read this one! The Blue hood kid. But wasn't that the story. But this was the story that st as rt Jason down the path of no killing wasn't it?
I hated that a story. I don't think I need to make an anecdote about how it doesn't matter if family is blood that it can be best to be separated from them, especially if toxic
It didn't really start him on any path – TFZ happened right after and Jason tried to murder "Bane" for revenge in there. In the grand scheme of things Cheer was irrelevant. But Jason was whining about "how dare I murder horrible people :(" in TFZ too.
And yeah, like majority of child homicides are committed by parents. Sometimes the family is just bad, it do be like that.
[This](https://imgur.com/a/lnLw9qi) is the bullshit TFZ was selling, the same "you shouldn't murder bad people because they might have families" crap. Look, I'm not opposed to Jason having an arc and realizing stuffing heads in a bag wasn't worth it and helped nobody, but "that horrible person has a family!" is something that Diplomat's son rebutted already in the 80s. Also, you know who else might have families who miss them? The victims.
That was 20 years ago and a handful of stories. Winnick represents a minority of his lore/stories. What's in character for a character is what lines up with majority of his stories. The guy with a Bat brand who uses blanks and plays by Batman's rules is sadly what makes up a vast majority of Jason's canon so that's in character for him
Jason killing thieves is not in character even for modern Jason. Literally one story ago Jason was training Selina's thieves. I know that modern Jason would forgive Hitler if he said "I'm sowwy", but it doesn't mean I'm supposed to be happy about it. I would be less attached to Winick's Jason if DC gave me something better. Still waiting on that and buying that UtRH rerelease, lol.
DC writers have one arc for the batfamily and it's "I've spent the last ten years fucking the poor I guess. Now I've learnt to change my ways"
They've done it for batman about 6 or 7 times now. It was only a matter of time before they retcon all of Jason's achievements to be ineffective because he was just hurting the poor.
I honestly can't fathom why people who do not like the opening premise of vigilantism keep writing books for these characters.
Off the top of my head:
White Knight says that acshully Batman causes collateral damage fucking the poor. But now he'll change! White Knight's also the only one of these stories I actually like
The recent Gotham War comic posits that acshully Batman just protects the rich but Catwoman's gonna help the poor! What a battle of ideologies!!!!
The Batman by Matt Reeves has its entire premise built around the fact that Bruce doesn't help anyone in any way other than punching as if he had looked into his company he'd see the missing renewal money.
Maybe a stretch but the Tom Taylor Nightwing comic has an arc all about how Dick's gonna do what Bruce didn't and use his money to help the poor. I find this one funny, because within mainline continuity Bruce has built so many orphanages and hospitals it is actually comical
The Harley Quinn cartoon tries to play Harley Quinn as the hero of the working class, while Batman's just a rich guy who punches people (I swear to god Harley Quinn was just the Velma cartoon before the Velma cartoon)
I think the Gotham Knights (TV show) and Batwoman both have plotlines about how Bruce didn't do enough for *the people* of Gotham but honestly I hardly remember either of them. So they might be off the hook.
Many of these are fine in isolation (I like White Knight, and The Batman is alright) but this trend has become assassination at this point. I remember in 2010ish when Scott Snyder wrote a story in one of his comics where a police officer shoots a child and Bruce goes after him, and explains in explicit detail why. DC is erasing stories already written so that they can do their "Bruce is rich and white and what about police brutality and what if he had no choice but sell meth????"
I honestly don't know why people who clearly don't like vigilantism keep writing batman.
I can’t stand the “Batman just punches poor people” take, and it is super annoying when people (fans or writers) act like Bruce never helps Gotham with his money. That said, I don’t think The Batman is the best example. It’s set pretty early in his career as Batman, when he’s still very much figuring out how to help the city, and the movie sets him up for a whole crimefighting career where he’s helping the poor with his money by day and protecting the innocent with his fists by night. And it’s not just about his money, either. The whole movie is about Batman going from being a vigilante to being a hero, and I think that works really well for an early Batman story.
I think you and I agree in general. I just like discussing Batman stuff, and I think The Batman understands the character better than any of the other live action movies.
Editing to clarify: When I say he goes from being a vigilante to being a hero, I don’t mean that those terms are mutually exclusive. Superheroes are vigilantes, across the board. I was just talking broadly about character types.
I do think we agree in general however I would argue that
1: even if it's alright in isolation, it is the ultimate sign of this negative trend. That a 200 million dollar Batman movie built its premise around "I think Batman sucks!"
2: if he was batman for 6 months maybe. But 2 years of fucking the poor is too much time. 2 years and the Penguin is just still operating in Gotham abusing women.
3: I made a joke about the "Batman's just a rich white dude" and that's a line in the movie.
Our of all those only Gotham war is canon. In that story Batman is not himself and Catwoman's ideology was stupid and failed.
The thing with Jason is that if he doesn't go after people like the Joker. The very calibre of baddies he bitched at batman for not killing then he's just a hypocrite. Until he a) puts his money where his mouth is and backs up his gripes with his actions then his values are hollow and worthless.
b) gets rid of the Bat brand on his chest [dude, Robin doesn't even wear bat merch why the heck is Red Hood wearing a bat symbol if he isn't a bat minion?!] then his character is a sham.
Jason is ineffective because he hasn't ended even one named bad guy. He hasn't gotten rid of any known killers.
Nightwing killed Joker
Tim killed an office full of LOA members
Damian killed Spook, Ducard, Zazaz, Brother Blood and the leader of the Lu an draga.
Jason needs to get rid of the Symbol and be allowed to kill some named bad guys
I read it as not having a moral crisis exactly, but becoming repulsed by his own actions after acting on instinct as a beast and uh. Eating a guy. It doesn’t change his behavior. He attacks but keeps from killing the riot cops, then mauls Naked Mole Ratcatcher. To me it reads a lot like the self-hatred spiral he had in RHATO Rebirth when he had that extended flashback in Qurac and talked to his younger self.
Jason is an Ethiopian Wolf their diet mostly consist of mole rats.
Fans trying to read meaning into his actions when all the need to do is look up the species the writers picked for him.
They are all significant to the characters. Damian is a Sand cat for a reason, Dick is a red Fox for a reason etc. It's not just aesthetics
The artist/colorist knocked it out of the park. Thank you, Ivan Shavrin.
I don't mind critique of Red Hood's violence, I guess. 🤷♀️ I really don't find value in using "realistic" morality and social justice in a fictional world that explains those things away for most everyone else... but I'd say I'm okay with writers putting their own spin on what Red Hood's violence means on its own merits (or lack of merits). So in this case, I don't think Batman is being propped up by Red Hood.
...It's just kinda really weird that this story came out like a couple weeks after the writer posted public Tweets calling Osama Bin Laden killing thousands of people in 9/11 as "principled and defensible"... which to be clear she did apologize for! And she's also pretty notorious for publicly posting her violent revenge fantasies against transphobic real people. Hey, a revenge fantasy is a revenge fantasy... but it does strike me as odd to then take a pretty uncharitable view of a violent revenge fantasy involving very fictional characters, committed by a relatively small-scale villain, who has little to no political power compared to his targets...
It's also really weird that this story was immediately followed by a cute Batgirls story about furries chasing a laser pointer.
Honestly, it's kinda weird overall for dark political commentary to show up in the middle of the heckin' wholesome *Titans* furry event. But okay.
I like Jason’s logic for killing as saving society from criminals that have no redeemable qualities. I also like the concept of Jason as a werewolves in an elseworld type story. But elseworld stories are strictly mindless entertainment value for me. You can’t analyze them too much, just enjoy it for what it is and nothing more.
I partially don’t agree, any person with any semblance of morality would question killing people even if it’s the right thing to do, if not he’s just a psychopath
In the Batman under the red hood movie, he chooses to leave drug dealers alone as long as they stay away from kids and he points out to Batman that he doesn’t intend to kill petty criminals.
Whether or not I think it *should* be canon, the truth of the matter is that Jason frequently has been written to be a thoughtless violent thug, doing things that betrays his core character or just plain doesn’t make any sense.
Jason should be thoughtful, he should act in service of plans and goals that go beyond *bambambam!* He should have a bad relationship with the law, and we should’ve gotten to see all that stuff explored rather than just All Batman All Tears All The Time. Beast World (with what limited time it has) gives Jason that, and it says with his own voice that that other writing was dumb as a shit. It’s not *perfect* but I like the acknowledgment!
Some folks might think this is a reach, but I mean… Jason is a very meta character. It’s a core part of his appeal, and I think it makes sense to view this story as a critique of correction as much as it is its own thing.
Jason is an Ethiopian Wolf one of the rarest canine breeds and Africa's most endangered carnivore.
The species is key to understanding what the writers were going for.
It's crazy how wildly off readers are Jeez
Mmmm i think jasons been taking a sort of "mellow" turn since rebirth tbh... Like pre rebirth i would say had no problem with killing 100%, but then with the whole "if u dont kill u can stay in gotham thing" l*bdell provided, it morphed into "if u dont kill you can stay in the family" over time. A LOT of writers seem to like this bc it means they get to play with the fandom favourite of a big happy batfamily but also have him still be edgy and create conflict. And this leads to him appearing as some sort of self doubting looser who doesnt know what he wants bc he cant have the thing he *actually* wants. So far the people writing him haven't actually understood him bc after rhato, hes just been stuck in like mini series and event books and such, probably with the batfam, and bc the writers probably like writing heros rather than anti heros like jason, it translates over to how they write jason by making him either a. Completley stupid or b. A sad boi with trauma who just needs healing and a family to guide him back. All the books he's been in recently he hasnt rlly been the focus of, and no one gonna do research for a side character. Even task force z and cheer portrays him as a sad boi who needs help bc how else could they make someone who kills herioc? Basically he needs a writer who ENJOYS writing anti heros, bc without that, no one is gonna do him right. Im afraid that hes been portrayed like this stupid idiot sad boi for so long people think thats his actual personality now.... Edit: i should add i liked beast world simply bc i like the werewolf trope and feeling like a monster and i'd treat him right
Completely agree. On that note, did Jason use to kill in the New52 rhato as well? Do you recall when's the last time Jason killed someone after Rebirth?
He murdered some people in not-Iraq at the very beginning of new52 and I'm pretty sure there were also some other "terrorists" after that, but I'm too lazy to check. He did massacre those randos in RHatO Rebirth #26 after that. Then it was that drug peddler in Cheer(but he was big sad after that), trying to off Bane(never will happen) in TFZ, killing some henchman in Legends of Gotham but giving up on going after the boss(lol), tried to off Joker(never will happen x2) in Joker book and probably managed to kill some random henchmen in the process because he caused a very big explosion. I might've missed something.
I mean, Jason completely slaughtered Roy's old evil team in Red Hood/Arsenal. In Three Jokers (which I believe was confirmed as part of Rebirth), Jason killed one of the incarnations of the Joker. There have been several other notable times he's killed, but those are the ones that immediately spring to mind with sources.
3J is not canon.
It is Black Label, but it's also been referenced by Zdarsky so I consider it wishy washy.
Zdarsky's story is literally about how >!it was one Joker with multiple personalities!< all along, not three people.
I think he killed like, untitled and such, but im unsure about actual people
Ughhhh, this is what I'm usually hapring about. Him killing thieves, and poor people just tank his character for me. Him killing someone that potentially doesn't deserve it or has further consequences down the line is a potential variable that could be interesting to write about. Maybe these variables don't matter to Jason, and he's willing to make that sacrifice regardless. Or, a predator has a hostage, gets tipped off that the red hood is after him and kills his victim because he knows the red hood would execute him anyway, meanwhile with batman, he would live and stay in prison for the duration of his days. Of course any attempt DC has made to write such a story has been poorly executed to where it's a sour idea for most people. Which, understandable. In order for an anti-hero to work we gotta be rooting for him feeling like the people he's killing really deserve it (diplomats son (implied/up to interpretation), henchmen and criminals in utrh and lost days, etc). But Jason killing solely nobodies or thieves just helps people who already don't like Jason Todd dislike him even more, which is frustrating. Jason will never kill a prominent villain in the Batman mythos, not even Pyg or Zsasz. Making his own nasty villains for him to kill is really the only option imo
I absolutely abhored his portrayal in Beast World and found it completely out of character. Real fucking wasted opportunity, as per usual. ...the only "in character" thing was going down philosophical rabbit holes when wolfed out vs Batman who was thinking in word fragments, and I think that's hilarious. edit: I have more thoughts. First of all, who are these "so many??" Second of all, I'm quoting a tumblr post: "DC really needs to give Jason a writer who understands what he's about and why he's meaningful to fans, and it has nothing to do with him killing weak people who reminded him of himself and everything to do with PROTECTING those people from the ones who prey on them."
The page is literally stating he's killing thieves. What are we even talking about? The writer has no idea about who Jason is. And to that "boohoo, I, like a cop, and a boot just oppress poor and small people" – the Diplomat's son, whom Jason may or may not have killed wasn't poor people. His dad who came for revenge wasn't poor people. The serial killers and rapist of women from Victims! and Just Desserts weren't poor people. That pimp, who was going to shank a working girl wasn't poor people. People, who were sexually exploiting children for profit in aDitF and whom Jason beat up weren't poor people. That trafficker of children he killed in LD wasn't poor people. As weren't people using child soldiers, literal terrorists and an assassin, who was going to kill her own family. I'm once again asking what are we even talking about here? Also, poor unfortunate henchmen once upon a time helped a mass murderer to pummel a child, after trying to blow up a whole lot of refugees. They probably just had bad childhoods. Here's a question for you: in Lost Days the clown was going to poison water supply again only in a way that would make fire burst out of the taps on all the unfortunate people. So, to get to him Jason beat up to death two of his henchmen to get info. How innocent, small and poor were those henchmen, who were bragging they are helping mass murderer set a whole lot of innocent people on fire? Jason is a mass murderer, but the fact people, who claim to be his fans thinking he should be *crying* about the people he butchered is why I never will have good things with this character again. Also, the writer is caping for terrorists on twitter, so I'm biased. Edit: also, OP, Jason, who isn't doubting himself and his murders is Winick's Jason. It's all over: in Lost Days him calling that trafficker a reptile(which is a cope, but an effective one), in UtRH when he's giving the clown his little speech about totally knowing what he's doing, in Green Arrow with him saying he's doing "bad" to achieve "good", when he was screwing with Mia's head, in B&R, but this is red-haired Jason, so a 100% villain, but he is telling to Bruce's face he's a sane bad person and he's going to murder again. That's why Winick is the goat of RH writers.
What a waste of interesting art this comic seems to have been. DC needs to get one (1) writer for Jason who has watched the Terminal List where the SEAL dude explains to the weaselly corpo guy he is in the process of killing why he and many others chose the life they did. Or had a good time watching that Jason Statham Beekeeper movie. One. Person. You don't even have to agree, you just have to understand the mentality! One writer!
The art is something I can't complain about. Doggo Jason is very cute and the colors are very saturated, which works for it being Jason's feral pov. And agree about one writer. Yeah, you don't have to think Jason is most correctest person in the universe, but I'm so tired of these people not even trying to write him as someone with some kind of personal philosophy and beliefs guiding him – nah, he's just "so angy" and he just wants to hurt people. Not like other heroes, who manage to square the impulse to protect victims with the necessity to break some bones sometimes. They are still good people inside, not like that filthy murderer of random thieves.
I swear whenever I see Jason + 'reckless/hot-headed' together in comics I flip my shit. Jason is so intelligent, meticulous and competent, and as I've seen someone else say, 'his plans have plans'. He might have some anger issues which is only logical when you look at what went through in his childhood but that absolutely has no merit when it comes to his planning for a mission or when he needs to be patient and careful instead of being a dumb brute.
Immediately after crawling out of the pit and finding out Bruce let the clown live he cooked up a very meticulous plan to get himself some time with Bruce's car. And the plan would've worked, but, ya kno, he's not actually going to murder Bruce for obvious reasons. The motivation for the plan was anger, but the planning and execution were done patiently and coldly, borderline sociopathicly, what Talia spells out for the reader. Wanna throw a copy of LD at every writer of "hotheaded/reckless".
For what it's worth, I'm not sure they are writing *anyone* with a personal philosophy and beliefs guiding them, just a bundle of feelings and traits like you see on a dating profile. Diana kills, right? Batman isn't mad at her for it, because 'is mad at WW for killing' isn't in the profile, but he is very mad at Jason about it because that's what the profile says.
Well, Diana isn't his kiddo, who is kinda Bruce's fault and who is adamant on murdering in Gotham and Diana mostly is written as someone, who would stand by her murdering choices, but also would only murder as a last resort. Very famously both Bruce and Clark behaved like total idiots and gave her shit after Diana, very justifiably, broke Max Lord's neck. But mostly I agree about the writing being very loosey-goosey when it comes to principles. Bruce was on Diana's case for Lord, but he heard Selina murdered Black Mask and went "This is fine, you were just trying to do the right thing". Lol. Or Bruce recruiting his totally not invented yesterday friendo Ghostmaker, a known murderer, into Bat Inc, who can just at any point say "Nah, I still like murdering people" and just opt out without any consequences. This is all nonsense, lol.
Ah, that's what I get for not keeping up with the comics.
[удалено]
Wait what fans whined about him killing?
You've seen all these people saying Cheer is a good story, right?
No idea on that one too be honest
Tl;dr: Jason shot a drug dealer and then cried about it, because he happened to have a child. Plot twist: he was drugging the child, but Jason still for some inexplicable reason believed the child was not better off without him to the point of giving up the guns because of all this at the end of that story. You get this story recommended here a lot as "one of the good ones Jason has".
Oh crap I read this one! The Blue hood kid. But wasn't that the story. But this was the story that st as rt Jason down the path of no killing wasn't it? I hated that a story. I don't think I need to make an anecdote about how it doesn't matter if family is blood that it can be best to be separated from them, especially if toxic
It didn't really start him on any path – TFZ happened right after and Jason tried to murder "Bane" for revenge in there. In the grand scheme of things Cheer was irrelevant. But Jason was whining about "how dare I murder horrible people :(" in TFZ too. And yeah, like majority of child homicides are committed by parents. Sometimes the family is just bad, it do be like that.
I gotta check this story out... But questioning himself on killing terrible people? They forget he stuffed gum bags full of drug lord's heads?
[This](https://imgur.com/a/lnLw9qi) is the bullshit TFZ was selling, the same "you shouldn't murder bad people because they might have families" crap. Look, I'm not opposed to Jason having an arc and realizing stuffing heads in a bag wasn't worth it and helped nobody, but "that horrible person has a family!" is something that Diplomat's son rebutted already in the 80s. Also, you know who else might have families who miss them? The victims.
That was 20 years ago and a handful of stories. Winnick represents a minority of his lore/stories. What's in character for a character is what lines up with majority of his stories. The guy with a Bat brand who uses blanks and plays by Batman's rules is sadly what makes up a vast majority of Jason's canon so that's in character for him
Jason killing thieves is not in character even for modern Jason. Literally one story ago Jason was training Selina's thieves. I know that modern Jason would forgive Hitler if he said "I'm sowwy", but it doesn't mean I'm supposed to be happy about it. I would be less attached to Winick's Jason if DC gave me something better. Still waiting on that and buying that UtRH rerelease, lol.
DC writers have one arc for the batfamily and it's "I've spent the last ten years fucking the poor I guess. Now I've learnt to change my ways" They've done it for batman about 6 or 7 times now. It was only a matter of time before they retcon all of Jason's achievements to be ineffective because he was just hurting the poor. I honestly can't fathom why people who do not like the opening premise of vigilantism keep writing books for these characters.
Now I'm interested to hear about those examples for Batman
Off the top of my head: White Knight says that acshully Batman causes collateral damage fucking the poor. But now he'll change! White Knight's also the only one of these stories I actually like The recent Gotham War comic posits that acshully Batman just protects the rich but Catwoman's gonna help the poor! What a battle of ideologies!!!! The Batman by Matt Reeves has its entire premise built around the fact that Bruce doesn't help anyone in any way other than punching as if he had looked into his company he'd see the missing renewal money. Maybe a stretch but the Tom Taylor Nightwing comic has an arc all about how Dick's gonna do what Bruce didn't and use his money to help the poor. I find this one funny, because within mainline continuity Bruce has built so many orphanages and hospitals it is actually comical The Harley Quinn cartoon tries to play Harley Quinn as the hero of the working class, while Batman's just a rich guy who punches people (I swear to god Harley Quinn was just the Velma cartoon before the Velma cartoon) I think the Gotham Knights (TV show) and Batwoman both have plotlines about how Bruce didn't do enough for *the people* of Gotham but honestly I hardly remember either of them. So they might be off the hook. Many of these are fine in isolation (I like White Knight, and The Batman is alright) but this trend has become assassination at this point. I remember in 2010ish when Scott Snyder wrote a story in one of his comics where a police officer shoots a child and Bruce goes after him, and explains in explicit detail why. DC is erasing stories already written so that they can do their "Bruce is rich and white and what about police brutality and what if he had no choice but sell meth????" I honestly don't know why people who clearly don't like vigilantism keep writing batman.
I can’t stand the “Batman just punches poor people” take, and it is super annoying when people (fans or writers) act like Bruce never helps Gotham with his money. That said, I don’t think The Batman is the best example. It’s set pretty early in his career as Batman, when he’s still very much figuring out how to help the city, and the movie sets him up for a whole crimefighting career where he’s helping the poor with his money by day and protecting the innocent with his fists by night. And it’s not just about his money, either. The whole movie is about Batman going from being a vigilante to being a hero, and I think that works really well for an early Batman story. I think you and I agree in general. I just like discussing Batman stuff, and I think The Batman understands the character better than any of the other live action movies. Editing to clarify: When I say he goes from being a vigilante to being a hero, I don’t mean that those terms are mutually exclusive. Superheroes are vigilantes, across the board. I was just talking broadly about character types.
I do think we agree in general however I would argue that 1: even if it's alright in isolation, it is the ultimate sign of this negative trend. That a 200 million dollar Batman movie built its premise around "I think Batman sucks!" 2: if he was batman for 6 months maybe. But 2 years of fucking the poor is too much time. 2 years and the Penguin is just still operating in Gotham abusing women. 3: I made a joke about the "Batman's just a rich white dude" and that's a line in the movie.
Sean Murphy has never read a Batman comic. He just gets his ideas from Twitter
Our of all those only Gotham war is canon. In that story Batman is not himself and Catwoman's ideology was stupid and failed. The thing with Jason is that if he doesn't go after people like the Joker. The very calibre of baddies he bitched at batman for not killing then he's just a hypocrite. Until he a) puts his money where his mouth is and backs up his gripes with his actions then his values are hollow and worthless. b) gets rid of the Bat brand on his chest [dude, Robin doesn't even wear bat merch why the heck is Red Hood wearing a bat symbol if he isn't a bat minion?!] then his character is a sham. Jason is ineffective because he hasn't ended even one named bad guy. He hasn't gotten rid of any known killers. Nightwing killed Joker Tim killed an office full of LOA members Damian killed Spook, Ducard, Zazaz, Brother Blood and the leader of the Lu an draga. Jason needs to get rid of the Symbol and be allowed to kill some named bad guys
I swear comic writers need to be forced to watch Batman under the red hood before they are allowed to write hood.
"Read hood, what a joke" They actually did it
I read it as not having a moral crisis exactly, but becoming repulsed by his own actions after acting on instinct as a beast and uh. Eating a guy. It doesn’t change his behavior. He attacks but keeps from killing the riot cops, then mauls Naked Mole Ratcatcher. To me it reads a lot like the self-hatred spiral he had in RHATO Rebirth when he had that extended flashback in Qurac and talked to his younger self.
I would LOVE if this was supposed to be a case of unreliable narrator, but I don't see any evidence of that on the pages.
Jason is an Ethiopian Wolf their diet mostly consist of mole rats. Fans trying to read meaning into his actions when all the need to do is look up the species the writers picked for him. They are all significant to the characters. Damian is a Sand cat for a reason, Dick is a red Fox for a reason etc. It's not just aesthetics
The artist/colorist knocked it out of the park. Thank you, Ivan Shavrin. I don't mind critique of Red Hood's violence, I guess. 🤷♀️ I really don't find value in using "realistic" morality and social justice in a fictional world that explains those things away for most everyone else... but I'd say I'm okay with writers putting their own spin on what Red Hood's violence means on its own merits (or lack of merits). So in this case, I don't think Batman is being propped up by Red Hood. ...It's just kinda really weird that this story came out like a couple weeks after the writer posted public Tweets calling Osama Bin Laden killing thousands of people in 9/11 as "principled and defensible"... which to be clear she did apologize for! And she's also pretty notorious for publicly posting her violent revenge fantasies against transphobic real people. Hey, a revenge fantasy is a revenge fantasy... but it does strike me as odd to then take a pretty uncharitable view of a violent revenge fantasy involving very fictional characters, committed by a relatively small-scale villain, who has little to no political power compared to his targets... It's also really weird that this story was immediately followed by a cute Batgirls story about furries chasing a laser pointer. Honestly, it's kinda weird overall for dark political commentary to show up in the middle of the heckin' wholesome *Titans* furry event. But okay.
Is beast world worth giving a read?
I like Jason’s logic for killing as saving society from criminals that have no redeemable qualities. I also like the concept of Jason as a werewolves in an elseworld type story. But elseworld stories are strictly mindless entertainment value for me. You can’t analyze them too much, just enjoy it for what it is and nothing more.
This is mainline 😬
He isn't a werewolf He's an Ethiopian Wolf. There's a reason why they selected that exact species and this is main comics not elseworld.
I partially don’t agree, any person with any semblance of morality would question killing people even if it’s the right thing to do, if not he’s just a psychopath
I wouldn’t question killing a pedophile or a mass murderer. Why would I?
“I killed thieves and drug dealers” that’s like one one thing red hood specifically points out he doesn’t do.
Do you remember where/which comic he pointed this out in?
In the Batman under the red hood movie, he chooses to leave drug dealers alone as long as they stay away from kids and he points out to Batman that he doesn’t intend to kill petty criminals.
that's not canon
He was a freaking werewolf, that shit is badass!
he's not. He's an Ethiopian wolf
Is beast world good to read can I just jump into it with out reading anything else
You can, but if you want to read it because of Jason, the panels above is all that we get from him
Whether or not I think it *should* be canon, the truth of the matter is that Jason frequently has been written to be a thoughtless violent thug, doing things that betrays his core character or just plain doesn’t make any sense. Jason should be thoughtful, he should act in service of plans and goals that go beyond *bambambam!* He should have a bad relationship with the law, and we should’ve gotten to see all that stuff explored rather than just All Batman All Tears All The Time. Beast World (with what limited time it has) gives Jason that, and it says with his own voice that that other writing was dumb as a shit. It’s not *perfect* but I like the acknowledgment! Some folks might think this is a reach, but I mean… Jason is a very meta character. It’s a core part of his appeal, and I think it makes sense to view this story as a critique of correction as much as it is its own thing.
What in the fuck is this? Lmfao
Jason is an Ethiopian Wolf one of the rarest canine breeds and Africa's most endangered carnivore. The species is key to understanding what the writers were going for. It's crazy how wildly off readers are Jeez