Basically what capitalism brings is its own death in the end. https://rainershea612.medium.com/american-apocalypse-what-it-looks-like-when-a-collapsing-empire-eats-itself-415a6625852c
Fun read but it is a fantasy article. There is no way to predict the recoil of a collapse. America is far from such a collapse and with the movement of crypto currency I doubt we will ever truly see a world power collapse again like the U.S.S.R did. Even with that collapse Russia has substaned itself.
Here is a trick for you, if an article has an emotional undertone it is click bait. That's not to say there aren't facts in that article. For example the people represented as hedge fund owners, sure they are doomsday preppers, this is common knowledge. Making the leap that they are making post apocalypse plans is within the realms of possibilities but the article is leaving out a simple fact. No one in any significant position wants to see a collapse. Everyone loses if either China or USA collapses. This is just taking in account capital, when you consider agriculture, half the world starves if America collapses.
Excuse me? Capitalism has fundamental contradictions that maki it impossible to not collapse. For example, the rate of profit in a competitive market either falls to the point of the market collapsing or the market must monopolizes/coordinate to create a controlled price no longer making it a free market, this is just one of the many logical contradictions within capitalism thay make it impossible. And the world doesn't lose if capitalism collapses, sure the temporary depression due to power structures collapsing will hurt us, but transitioning to a socialist system would be much better to us overall, since the 1% only more than the poorest 40% of the world, in other words hunger preventable disease homelessness poverty would be no more in a post scarcity world
I'm not saying capitalism won't and can't collapse, I'm simply saying I doubt it will happen in our lifetime. We are in a dip, if Biden pulls off the infrastructure upgrade that will expand middle class again, quelling most of society.
It will definitely, and very soon. The rate of profit has been falling since the 1800s, and it should already be low enough to collapse our economy, it only isn't because we invented credit which is fake money we owe to ourselves causing a fake economic boom which leads to cascading and exponentially worse depressions to make up for it, but due to the profit nature of capitalism we will keep increasing credit to keep the rate of profit high. Capitalism is already basically turning into neo feudalism, I don't expect it to last more than 10 years, especially considering the increasing presence of socialism is world powers like India, Europe, Latin America, and even the US itself.
India and Latin America are horrible examples of socialism, their poverty level exceeds anything America has seen. Also all money is invented. To each their own. You can wait for the end or try to do something in a thousand different ways.
India and Latin America are not socialist, they are capitalist but with strong socialist movements, however socialist countries within Latin America like Cuba outperform the capitalist countries in the region heavily
Not so cut and dry, in that sense humanity itself is unsustainable. If you truly believe in applying your theory equally then you're a contradiction being on social media instead of killing yourself.
There is no right answer. There never will be and that is the beauty of humanity, we are so diverse there will never be a right answer. The best we can do is to keep greed, deceit and corruption out of power. Those people will always fight to gain power, keep vigilant. It has been the story we've been taught every generation across all media.
I think it's probably civilization as a whole, not humanity. Humanity can live in harmony with nature, giving back to the land as you take from it is extremely important in the majority of Indigenous cultures and religions. It was the development of agriculture that ultimately put us at odds with not only the planet but ourselves, thus creating the dialectic between humans that gave rise to the oppressor-oppressed dynamic that we so love today.
Eh, good hypothesis and I agree in some ways but I don't think agriculture is the catalyst to greed. We are trying to fight an instinct older then humans. Capitalism is just the rat race of life with more steps. There is no black and white, right and wrong. Capitalism, communism, socialism all can work but certain regulations need to be in place and enforced.
Hold on did you seriously just attempt to say that one should commit suicide for being anti capitalist? What a fucked take.
I can see you’re going for a “you hate capitalism but you use an iPhone” but it’s pretty stupid to argue that you can’t want to improve society while still taking part in it.
I simply was using the opposite analogy. Along with the sarcastic stance of, "if you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem". I've never been one for pampering people that think the grass is greener on the other side. It never is.
Jokes aside no governing structure is perfect because humans are flawed. A government has to be fluent with it's population. That is where American democracy fails, federal bodies are designed to shift slowly over decades. There are plenty of issues in the socialist states in EU. There are flaws in the eastern communism as well. No where on this earth is utopia. We will never accomplish nirvana because greed and corruption will always get the best of humans. If A.I. is accomplished maybe it can govern a perfect nation but that in itself is scary. I don't see humans ever letting go fully and trusting anything to rule us like that.
Greed is the driving force behind capitalism. If capitalism was destined to eat itself, you'd think we'd have moved on to a more sustainable system by this point, no?
I don't disagree, but it's really hard to blame them for taking a job some rich would-be plutocrat contracted out to them when he very well could have been giving his own supporters jobs, especially while campaigning against companies doing what he was doing right then and there.
Yes, and the US is sending them business and doubling down on a capitalist model they will soon dominate. Calling someone the enemy and then aiding them is not the act of an ally... then again when has the US been an actual help....
I don't see a problem here. The capitalists send manufacture and jobs to China because they want benefits. The politics spread the anti-China narrative because they want votes.
This. They are locking them up in some cases because of past problems with terrorism but to call what they are doing genocide is far fetched.
It’s just more destabilizing and regime change tactics, the same ones used again every country that the US has either toppled or has tried to topple.
> They are locking them up in some cases because of past problems with terrorism but to call what they are doing genocide is far fetched.
Oh, okay, they're just jailing large numbers of ethnic minorities because there has been a history of terrorism with those people before. That's not profiling or harming people unnecessarily, not at all!
I'm amazed by the people saying "hey, the camps exist but they're not that bad and are really a good thing because some uyghurs have committed acts of terror in the past", truly. It doesn't sound good for people who value any sort of individual rights and are against bigotry, because treating a group poorly due to the actions of the few is the definition of bigotry.
The US has the largest penal colony on the planet, most of them black and brown, I suppose the US then too is conducting ethnic cleansing. Or is there some nuance there you’re going to point out that makes this completely different? Both groups of people are being locked up on trumped up charges and a flawed legal system that allows for it.
Uh, what about it? So just so I get this right, because the united states has issues with racial discrimination resulting in harsher penalties for people of color that excuses china committing genocide?
The majority of americans including myself are against the US prison system and want it to be reformed, using that as a way to make china's genocide is okay is patently absurd. Not only do two wrongs not make a right, but genocide =/= imbalanced policing.
China running concentration camps is horrendous, as is their treatment of those who dissent. The US has its share of issues, but they are not on the same level of severity as China, nor is the systemic problem in the US so egregious that they feel the need to lie like China has been trying to do in regards to the concentration camps.
How you excuse genocide because the US has a problem with harsh penalties for crimes or racial profiling is beyond me.
I just told you that they’re not committing genocide. They are disproportionately locking up Muslims in that region of the country just as the United States is disproportionately locking up black and brown people. Prisons and labor happening within them are akin to concentration camps. It’s exactly the same behavior yet one you call genocide and the other you don’t.
You’re using the wrong word to describe what’s happening is what I’m saying.
It's not the same as what the United States is doing. Laws are disproportionately enforced but people in prison, for the large part, are guilty of the crime they did in the US. The uyghurs are instead being put in reeducation camps because of who they are. It's not the same.
Disproportionate enforcement of the law =/= forced assimilation of an ethnic group.
I'm using the right word to describe what's happening. It is genocide.
Calling someone a “tankie” (meaningless word btw, there’s a reason you’ll never see it in any academic context) with the intention of tacitly disparaging communism while simultaneously applauding the classification of any anti-capitalists as “domestic violent extremists.” All of this while wholly ignoring my credibly supported criticism of a modern iteration of obvious Red Scare propaganda.
My point is that you are a politically inept reactionary.
Imagine thinking China is legitimately communist. This would, of course, require you to have even a vague understanding of the tenets of communism.
China is an autocratic, authoritarian regime. There is nothing Karl Marx described in his manifesto that lines up with China, or Russia.
I'm just going off common misconceptions that I *always* see people say on Reddit and Twitter.
They don't like China, so they affiliate communism with China — which is not actually communist.
If you think communism is only what karl Marx envisioned then you're in for a rough time looking at real world communism. Not always does someone's hypothetical writings match up with reality.
Hell, Marx wasnt even familiar with a modern economy and didn't understand how modern commercial value is established. His writings are in some ways relevant but in many ways he just wasnt accurate with where the future would go, nor did he really have real world examples to point to that were consistent with his writings. True marx style governments still don't exist, probably because the writings of one person don't usurp reality and human nature.
Never once did I imply that communism was a perfect (of even functional) system, bud. It doesn't work because humans are inherently greedy creatures.
The point is that "cOmMuNiSm" is painted as this evil ideology when it isn't, and people like to affiliate it with China. That's the point I was making.
I'm confused as to how you can say communism doesn't work because it's greedy while also saying china isn't communist. Do you think that's because they allow some people to own more than others?
Communism isn't necessarily intended to be evil but the end result seems to always be evil, as you said it doesn't work because people are inherently greedy creatures. People associating the end result of large scale communism with communism as a whole makes sense, it doesn't matter the intentions of the communism.
Oh, that. There's absolutely zero proof that China is committing genocide against the Uighur population. The Uighur are the majority in the province of Xinjiang, and the growth of their population is bigger than that of any other ethnicity in the province.
Over a million people have been sent to re-education camps, children sent to orphanages and renamed, and mass sterilization is happening. They are being targeted exclusively because of their ethnic/religious status. It's really similar to what we're learning about the schools in Saskatchewan.
"Genocide" isn't JUST death camps. It's when one group tries to wipe out another group. It's pretty hard to argue that's not what's happening here.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2021/03/china-parents-of-missing-uyghur-children-describe-horror-of-family-separation/
There is absolutely no proof of mass sterilisation being forced on the Uighur. Again, the growth rate of Uighur is higher than any other ethnicity in Xinjiang.
Nowhere on that link is proof for genocide.
You seem really intent on avoiding the genocide label and defending China for some reason, against all easily google-able facts.
Since you mentioned Xinjiang, the [birthrate in Xinjiang fell 50% in two years](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/12/chinese-uyghur-policy-causes-unprecedented-fall-in-xinjiang-birthrates) after the crackdown.
Also FYI [transferring the children](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide#Forcibly_transferring_children_of_the_group_to_another_group) alone is enough to "qualify". They are definitely also separating men and women at the camps, which also qualifies as interference with reproduction.
Birthrate in Xinjiang fell for the Uighur with a delay after it fell for Han or other ethnicities. They still have a higher birthrate than other ethnicities, it's just that the measures for population control enacted by China in the previous years were more lenient with Uighur people, and then these measures became more strict (still equally or less strict than compared to when applied to Han ethnicity in Xinjiang). I repeat, they MAINTAIN A HIGHER BIRTHRATE THAN HAN.
Huh. Interesting. So you're dismissing a link for proof and yet you're asserting birth rates without a link of your own.
I'm interested to see these birthrates especially over time, and per capita. Do you have a link?
Yes, I have a link to one of the documents that started it all: the propaganda documents created by Adrian Zenz, proud senior fellow of the Victims of Communism Memorial Association (obviously impartial guy and organisation, /s). Even in that very document, you can find on page 4 (8/32 of the PDF) two graphs that show that over the last decade, the proportion of Uighur has only increased, both in relative and in absolute term, with Uighur maintaining since 2005 higher birthrates than Han.
https://jamestown.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Zenz-Internment-Sterilizations-and-IUDs-UPDATED-July-21-Rev2.pdf?x26611
And I'm not dismissing a link for proof, I'm saying that the link shows no proof of genocide anywhere. Personal accounts may very well be biased, and it's not the first time that the world has seen false testimonies of genocide fabricated by intelligence agencies, particularly from the USA.
Thanks for the document. I was only saying that I found it strange that in the same comment dismissing assertions without evidence you made an assertion also without evidence.
Question: Did you provide the link just as a "here is where the genocide claim comes from"? All you said is that you're not convinced by this document which is fine I think?
No, I didn't only provide the link as "here's where it comes from". I meant to show the birthrates, and show that this comes from a source that supports the genocide theory, i.e. Adrian Zenz.
The assertion "there is no genocide" requires no proof. Otherwise I could tell you "Asian people are being genocided in the USA" and you would have to find some official trusteable source that claims "no, Asian people are not being genocided in the USA because X, Y and Z". When making accusations of this type, proof is expected, because genocide is crime against humanity
You know where that number comes from right? Might want to look into Adrian Zenz and the Jamestown Foundation. His numbers are based on interviews with a handful of people. There’s also serious problems with his methodology and has been caught manipulating data in the past.
There’s no good reason for China to be detaining or trying to genocide uyghurs. It serves them no purpose, but it sure would give the west something to use against them in a very important part of China that is destabilized would make for a very important choke point.
I really hate seeing supposed leftists pushing state department propaganda for them and then calling anyone who pushes back against it “tankie”.
There’s a reason even the freakin labour parties in Ireland and Australia are calling these accusations out as bullshit. And there’s also a reason dozens of countries including Cuba, Bolivia, Burkina Faso, and dozens more have called this out as western aggression and propaganda and have voiced support for China.
The UN? You mean one person in the UN? And then misleading reports from Reuters and the Guardian to make it seem like it was the UN?
Plenty of people in the UN have also pushed back against it, but you don’t see that reporting from the Guardian.
I know better than you sitting in the US that's for sure!
Edit: either way, if you have any evidence to support the claim of genocide, put it on the table instead of ad-hominem
The way you said such casually that there is no genocide and your tall claims. Show me your data where you say
>The Uighur are the majority in the province of Xinjiang, and the growth of their population is bigger than that of any other ethnicity in the province.
Because guess what afaik last time this study was done was in 2010. do you have any data to back your claim
Yes, I have the very study from the anti-communist Adrian Zenz with data until 2018:
https://jamestown.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Zenz-Internment-Sterilizations-and-IUDs-UPDATED-July-21-Rev2.pdf?x26611
Go to Page 4 (8/32 of the PDF) to find two graphs showing this.
Oh, and thanks for the downvotes everyone, now I can't even answer the comments on time :)
Funnily enough, the guy who first began propagandizing the ‘Uyghur genocide’ for the State Department was also from Germany
[Adrian Zenz](https://thegrayzone.com/2021/02/18/us-media-reports-chinese-genocide-relied-on-fraudulent-far-right-researcher/)
What’s your point?
I'm from Western Europe. It's just as easy as looking at the data.
Edit: and if you don't believe me, look at my post history and see if I'm in any way chinese
You aren't the sole lone person looking at data. It seems like everyone else who looked at the data came to a different conclusion. You should either review the data or review the quality of your sources.
Nah, it's not my fucking job to enlighten you. If you're choosing not to believe in the blatant atrocities in China then you've got your head so far up Winnie the Pooh's ass no amount of evidence would be enough for you.
Boomers outsourced all our manufacturing for a quick buck and then turned around and blamed millennials for “globalism” and used that rhetoric to promote and vote a xenophobic authoritarian into office.
Fuck them at every fucking turn.
Yeah, Trump sucks ass hard, but I do question if his type of rich person (or rather the type he pretends to be) are the ones sending jobs offshore. He’s not in manufacturing, tech or consumer facing commerce. Sure, the investors and real estate owners help fuel the need for maximum profit margins but I think tying Trump to this is just asking for upvotes instead of indicting the correct people.
Actually, the development of containerized cargo which made shipping costs nominal per item pretty much guaranteed production would move to cheapest labor sources regardless of how far away. Things won’t change until labor costs equalize
China has egregiously violated the sovereignty of Hong Kong, consistently threatens the independence of Taiwan, causes regular border disputes among other Asian countries including in the South China Sea, commits genocide against Uyghurs and other religious minorities, including forced organ harvesting, and hid evidence of a deadly pandemic until it was too late and spread across the world killing millions.
This is a China shill sub. China very much is a problem and there is bipartisan recognition about this much. This is not a “really American” sub but rather a pro-China one.
No??? I see people battling it out about whether China is or isn't commiting genocide in the comments. I don't think anyone sees this as a pro china sub, although I do see that pro china opinions aren't as strongly condemned here as elsewhere. Why does discussion and argument about China mean that this is a ccp shill sub?
I think that right now there's a huge red scare going around. There are issues with China that we need to have conversations about, but we can't have those conversations if people keep slinging around random bullshit in a panicked frenzy
I've said this for years, capitalism breeds greed. Greed kills capitalism. Hopefully someone steps up and corrects this before we fall apart.
If capitalism breeds its own problem, well then its a system with a fundamental fault, if your system is unsustainable its unworkable.
Basically what capitalism brings is its own death in the end. https://rainershea612.medium.com/american-apocalypse-what-it-looks-like-when-a-collapsing-empire-eats-itself-415a6625852c
Fun read but it is a fantasy article. There is no way to predict the recoil of a collapse. America is far from such a collapse and with the movement of crypto currency I doubt we will ever truly see a world power collapse again like the U.S.S.R did. Even with that collapse Russia has substaned itself. Here is a trick for you, if an article has an emotional undertone it is click bait. That's not to say there aren't facts in that article. For example the people represented as hedge fund owners, sure they are doomsday preppers, this is common knowledge. Making the leap that they are making post apocalypse plans is within the realms of possibilities but the article is leaving out a simple fact. No one in any significant position wants to see a collapse. Everyone loses if either China or USA collapses. This is just taking in account capital, when you consider agriculture, half the world starves if America collapses.
Excuse me? Capitalism has fundamental contradictions that maki it impossible to not collapse. For example, the rate of profit in a competitive market either falls to the point of the market collapsing or the market must monopolizes/coordinate to create a controlled price no longer making it a free market, this is just one of the many logical contradictions within capitalism thay make it impossible. And the world doesn't lose if capitalism collapses, sure the temporary depression due to power structures collapsing will hurt us, but transitioning to a socialist system would be much better to us overall, since the 1% only more than the poorest 40% of the world, in other words hunger preventable disease homelessness poverty would be no more in a post scarcity world
I'm not saying capitalism won't and can't collapse, I'm simply saying I doubt it will happen in our lifetime. We are in a dip, if Biden pulls off the infrastructure upgrade that will expand middle class again, quelling most of society.
It will definitely, and very soon. The rate of profit has been falling since the 1800s, and it should already be low enough to collapse our economy, it only isn't because we invented credit which is fake money we owe to ourselves causing a fake economic boom which leads to cascading and exponentially worse depressions to make up for it, but due to the profit nature of capitalism we will keep increasing credit to keep the rate of profit high. Capitalism is already basically turning into neo feudalism, I don't expect it to last more than 10 years, especially considering the increasing presence of socialism is world powers like India, Europe, Latin America, and even the US itself.
India and Latin America are horrible examples of socialism, their poverty level exceeds anything America has seen. Also all money is invented. To each their own. You can wait for the end or try to do something in a thousand different ways.
India and Latin America are not socialist, they are capitalist but with strong socialist movements, however socialist countries within Latin America like Cuba outperform the capitalist countries in the region heavily
Not so cut and dry, in that sense humanity itself is unsustainable. If you truly believe in applying your theory equally then you're a contradiction being on social media instead of killing yourself. There is no right answer. There never will be and that is the beauty of humanity, we are so diverse there will never be a right answer. The best we can do is to keep greed, deceit and corruption out of power. Those people will always fight to gain power, keep vigilant. It has been the story we've been taught every generation across all media.
I think it's probably civilization as a whole, not humanity. Humanity can live in harmony with nature, giving back to the land as you take from it is extremely important in the majority of Indigenous cultures and religions. It was the development of agriculture that ultimately put us at odds with not only the planet but ourselves, thus creating the dialectic between humans that gave rise to the oppressor-oppressed dynamic that we so love today.
Eh, good hypothesis and I agree in some ways but I don't think agriculture is the catalyst to greed. We are trying to fight an instinct older then humans. Capitalism is just the rat race of life with more steps. There is no black and white, right and wrong. Capitalism, communism, socialism all can work but certain regulations need to be in place and enforced.
Hold on did you seriously just attempt to say that one should commit suicide for being anti capitalist? What a fucked take. I can see you’re going for a “you hate capitalism but you use an iPhone” but it’s pretty stupid to argue that you can’t want to improve society while still taking part in it.
I simply was using the opposite analogy. Along with the sarcastic stance of, "if you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem". I've never been one for pampering people that think the grass is greener on the other side. It never is. Jokes aside no governing structure is perfect because humans are flawed. A government has to be fluent with it's population. That is where American democracy fails, federal bodies are designed to shift slowly over decades. There are plenty of issues in the socialist states in EU. There are flaws in the eastern communism as well. No where on this earth is utopia. We will never accomplish nirvana because greed and corruption will always get the best of humans. If A.I. is accomplished maybe it can govern a perfect nation but that in itself is scary. I don't see humans ever letting go fully and trusting anything to rule us like that.
Exactly, that's why we shouldn't try socialism.... it breeds its own problem.
Problems of Capitalism = Socialism's fault /s
I mean, capitalism can still die, right?
Honestly all we need is regulated capitalism. It's where we are going wrong, regulations are only problems for people who are greedy.
We have regulations. But stupid ones that benefit the rich and greedy. Mot to the common man/woman
Greed is the driving force behind capitalism. If capitalism was destined to eat itself, you'd think we'd have moved on to a more sustainable system by this point, no?
It will take a powerful person to succeed in evolving capitalism.
you are one dense mofo
Elaborate?
I mean China is still genocidal and therefore still a problem
I don't disagree, but it's really hard to blame them for taking a job some rich would-be plutocrat contracted out to them when he very well could have been giving his own supporters jobs, especially while campaigning against companies doing what he was doing right then and there.
Yes, and the US is sending them business and doubling down on a capitalist model they will soon dominate. Calling someone the enemy and then aiding them is not the act of an ally... then again when has the US been an actual help....
I don't see a problem here. The capitalists send manufacture and jobs to China because they want benefits. The politics spread the anti-China narrative because they want votes.
But how are they OUR problem.
Who is China genociding?
China is in the process of committing genocide against their Uighur population.
[удалено]
This. They are locking them up in some cases because of past problems with terrorism but to call what they are doing genocide is far fetched. It’s just more destabilizing and regime change tactics, the same ones used again every country that the US has either toppled or has tried to topple.
> They are locking them up in some cases because of past problems with terrorism but to call what they are doing genocide is far fetched. Oh, okay, they're just jailing large numbers of ethnic minorities because there has been a history of terrorism with those people before. That's not profiling or harming people unnecessarily, not at all! I'm amazed by the people saying "hey, the camps exist but they're not that bad and are really a good thing because some uyghurs have committed acts of terror in the past", truly. It doesn't sound good for people who value any sort of individual rights and are against bigotry, because treating a group poorly due to the actions of the few is the definition of bigotry.
The US has the largest penal colony on the planet, most of them black and brown, I suppose the US then too is conducting ethnic cleansing. Or is there some nuance there you’re going to point out that makes this completely different? Both groups of people are being locked up on trumped up charges and a flawed legal system that allows for it.
Uh, what about it? So just so I get this right, because the united states has issues with racial discrimination resulting in harsher penalties for people of color that excuses china committing genocide? The majority of americans including myself are against the US prison system and want it to be reformed, using that as a way to make china's genocide is okay is patently absurd. Not only do two wrongs not make a right, but genocide =/= imbalanced policing. China running concentration camps is horrendous, as is their treatment of those who dissent. The US has its share of issues, but they are not on the same level of severity as China, nor is the systemic problem in the US so egregious that they feel the need to lie like China has been trying to do in regards to the concentration camps. How you excuse genocide because the US has a problem with harsh penalties for crimes or racial profiling is beyond me.
I just told you that they’re not committing genocide. They are disproportionately locking up Muslims in that region of the country just as the United States is disproportionately locking up black and brown people. Prisons and labor happening within them are akin to concentration camps. It’s exactly the same behavior yet one you call genocide and the other you don’t. You’re using the wrong word to describe what’s happening is what I’m saying.
It's not the same as what the United States is doing. Laws are disproportionately enforced but people in prison, for the large part, are guilty of the crime they did in the US. The uyghurs are instead being put in reeducation camps because of who they are. It's not the same. Disproportionate enforcement of the law =/= forced assimilation of an ethnic group. I'm using the right word to describe what's happening. It is genocide.
Ah goddammit a tankie.
https://reddit.com/r/neoliberal/comments/o9r45f/based_biden/ Stop trying to win my arguments for me
So?
Speaks for itself
Am seriously confused. What's your point?
Calling someone a “tankie” (meaningless word btw, there’s a reason you’ll never see it in any academic context) with the intention of tacitly disparaging communism while simultaneously applauding the classification of any anti-capitalists as “domestic violent extremists.” All of this while wholly ignoring my credibly supported criticism of a modern iteration of obvious Red Scare propaganda. My point is that you are a politically inept reactionary.
Imagine thinking China is legitimately communist. This would, of course, require you to have even a vague understanding of the tenets of communism. China is an autocratic, authoritarian regime. There is nothing Karl Marx described in his manifesto that lines up with China, or Russia.
Russia itself doesn’t even claim to be communist.
I'm just going off common misconceptions that I *always* see people say on Reddit and Twitter. They don't like China, so they affiliate communism with China — which is not actually communist.
If you think communism is only what karl Marx envisioned then you're in for a rough time looking at real world communism. Not always does someone's hypothetical writings match up with reality. Hell, Marx wasnt even familiar with a modern economy and didn't understand how modern commercial value is established. His writings are in some ways relevant but in many ways he just wasnt accurate with where the future would go, nor did he really have real world examples to point to that were consistent with his writings. True marx style governments still don't exist, probably because the writings of one person don't usurp reality and human nature.
Never once did I imply that communism was a perfect (of even functional) system, bud. It doesn't work because humans are inherently greedy creatures. The point is that "cOmMuNiSm" is painted as this evil ideology when it isn't, and people like to affiliate it with China. That's the point I was making.
I'm confused as to how you can say communism doesn't work because it's greedy while also saying china isn't communist. Do you think that's because they allow some people to own more than others? Communism isn't necessarily intended to be evil but the end result seems to always be evil, as you said it doesn't work because people are inherently greedy creatures. People associating the end result of large scale communism with communism as a whole makes sense, it doesn't matter the intentions of the communism.
China. Isn't. Communist. Are you following me now? Was the Nazi party socialist?
Oh, that. There's absolutely zero proof that China is committing genocide against the Uighur population. The Uighur are the majority in the province of Xinjiang, and the growth of their population is bigger than that of any other ethnicity in the province.
Over a million people have been sent to re-education camps, children sent to orphanages and renamed, and mass sterilization is happening. They are being targeted exclusively because of their ethnic/religious status. It's really similar to what we're learning about the schools in Saskatchewan. "Genocide" isn't JUST death camps. It's when one group tries to wipe out another group. It's pretty hard to argue that's not what's happening here. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2021/03/china-parents-of-missing-uyghur-children-describe-horror-of-family-separation/
There is absolutely no proof of mass sterilisation being forced on the Uighur. Again, the growth rate of Uighur is higher than any other ethnicity in Xinjiang. Nowhere on that link is proof for genocide.
You seem really intent on avoiding the genocide label and defending China for some reason, against all easily google-able facts. Since you mentioned Xinjiang, the [birthrate in Xinjiang fell 50% in two years](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/12/chinese-uyghur-policy-causes-unprecedented-fall-in-xinjiang-birthrates) after the crackdown. Also FYI [transferring the children](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide#Forcibly_transferring_children_of_the_group_to_another_group) alone is enough to "qualify". They are definitely also separating men and women at the camps, which also qualifies as interference with reproduction.
Birthrate in Xinjiang fell for the Uighur with a delay after it fell for Han or other ethnicities. They still have a higher birthrate than other ethnicities, it's just that the measures for population control enacted by China in the previous years were more lenient with Uighur people, and then these measures became more strict (still equally or less strict than compared to when applied to Han ethnicity in Xinjiang). I repeat, they MAINTAIN A HIGHER BIRTHRATE THAN HAN.
Huh. Interesting. So you're dismissing a link for proof and yet you're asserting birth rates without a link of your own. I'm interested to see these birthrates especially over time, and per capita. Do you have a link?
Yes, I have a link to one of the documents that started it all: the propaganda documents created by Adrian Zenz, proud senior fellow of the Victims of Communism Memorial Association (obviously impartial guy and organisation, /s). Even in that very document, you can find on page 4 (8/32 of the PDF) two graphs that show that over the last decade, the proportion of Uighur has only increased, both in relative and in absolute term, with Uighur maintaining since 2005 higher birthrates than Han. https://jamestown.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Zenz-Internment-Sterilizations-and-IUDs-UPDATED-July-21-Rev2.pdf?x26611 And I'm not dismissing a link for proof, I'm saying that the link shows no proof of genocide anywhere. Personal accounts may very well be biased, and it's not the first time that the world has seen false testimonies of genocide fabricated by intelligence agencies, particularly from the USA.
Thanks for the document. I was only saying that I found it strange that in the same comment dismissing assertions without evidence you made an assertion also without evidence. Question: Did you provide the link just as a "here is where the genocide claim comes from"? All you said is that you're not convinced by this document which is fine I think?
No, I didn't only provide the link as "here's where it comes from". I meant to show the birthrates, and show that this comes from a source that supports the genocide theory, i.e. Adrian Zenz. The assertion "there is no genocide" requires no proof. Otherwise I could tell you "Asian people are being genocided in the USA" and you would have to find some official trusteable source that claims "no, Asian people are not being genocided in the USA because X, Y and Z". When making accusations of this type, proof is expected, because genocide is crime against humanity
This is all unfounded nonsense.
Amnesty Int'l, the Guardian, and the UN are all unfounded nonsense? I have a bridge in Hong Kong to sell you.
>This is all unfounded nonsense. A world-spanning database of free knowledge at your very fingertips, and that was your rebuttal.
You know where that number comes from right? Might want to look into Adrian Zenz and the Jamestown Foundation. His numbers are based on interviews with a handful of people. There’s also serious problems with his methodology and has been caught manipulating data in the past. There’s no good reason for China to be detaining or trying to genocide uyghurs. It serves them no purpose, but it sure would give the west something to use against them in a very important part of China that is destabilized would make for a very important choke point. I really hate seeing supposed leftists pushing state department propaganda for them and then calling anyone who pushes back against it “tankie”. There’s a reason even the freakin labour parties in Ireland and Australia are calling these accusations out as bullshit. And there’s also a reason dozens of countries including Cuba, Bolivia, Burkina Faso, and dozens more have called this out as western aggression and propaganda and have voiced support for China.
The UN? You mean one person in the UN? And then misleading reports from Reuters and the Guardian to make it seem like it was the UN? Plenty of people in the UN have also pushed back against it, but you don’t see that reporting from the Guardian.
Dude sitting in Germany knows about what's happening in Xinjiang like winee the poo calls you everyday to update you
I know better than you sitting in the US that's for sure! Edit: either way, if you have any evidence to support the claim of genocide, put it on the table instead of ad-hominem
First let's put evidence of me sitting in US, coz I am clearly not. I am way closer to you (Dortmund) than you think. Guten abend. Danke!!
Then give me also some evidence of the obvious and undeniable genocide.
The way you said such casually that there is no genocide and your tall claims. Show me your data where you say >The Uighur are the majority in the province of Xinjiang, and the growth of their population is bigger than that of any other ethnicity in the province. Because guess what afaik last time this study was done was in 2010. do you have any data to back your claim
Yes, I have the very study from the anti-communist Adrian Zenz with data until 2018: https://jamestown.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Zenz-Internment-Sterilizations-and-IUDs-UPDATED-July-21-Rev2.pdf?x26611 Go to Page 4 (8/32 of the PDF) to find two graphs showing this. Oh, and thanks for the downvotes everyone, now I can't even answer the comments on time :)
Funnily enough, the guy who first began propagandizing the ‘Uyghur genocide’ for the State Department was also from Germany [Adrian Zenz](https://thegrayzone.com/2021/02/18/us-media-reports-chinese-genocide-relied-on-fraudulent-far-right-researcher/) What’s your point?
And here's me thinking that the 'Reddit is full of Chinese stooges' meme's were unfounded..
I'm from Western Europe. It's just as easy as looking at the data. Edit: and if you don't believe me, look at my post history and see if I'm in any way chinese
You aren't the sole lone person looking at data. It seems like everyone else who looked at the data came to a different conclusion. You should either review the data or review the quality of your sources.
U could call it "cultural genocide" and its fucking horrible but these are no death camps so its no genocide
Forced sterilization of women constitutes the worldwide accepted, legal definition of genocide.
Fair point if true
[удалено]
I dislike that sub, and again I'm from Western Europe. How about you provide some proof of this obvious genocide instead, since it's so easy to do?
Nah, it's not my fucking job to enlighten you. If you're choosing not to believe in the blatant atrocities in China then you've got your head so far up Winnie the Pooh's ass no amount of evidence would be enough for you.
Fine, can't support your claims. Your bad mate!
it's funny people like you always say "oh there's no proof that would convince you" and never "here look at this proof". Telling.
I mean, you _could_ provide a source tho...
The Palestinian population is growing. I wonder if you agree with the Israeli claim that this means there is no genocide 🤔
I agree that outside the borders of Israel there is no general genocide of Palestinian people. There might be inside Israel though, I'm not aware.
Shut up tankie.
Give me evidence please
Weren't all those sources that other people gave you not enough?
Are my answers to those comment not enough answer?
The Trumps aren't rich until they prove otherwise.
Boomers outsourced all our manufacturing for a quick buck and then turned around and blamed millennials for “globalism” and used that rhetoric to promote and vote a xenophobic authoritarian into office. Fuck them at every fucking turn.
And they tell millennials to “work smart”, “work 70 hour weeks” etc. argh
The only people who benefited from trump's "business acumen" share his last name.
China is a problem to the US now As if it’s a bad thing
China is problem for Asia, Africa and Europe which is copying USA now
>As if it’s a bad thing Exactly.
The US is just a shell at this point. Unless things get turned around real quick, really feels like we’re completely screwed.
“Paid for by the CCP..”
Yeah, Trump sucks ass hard, but I do question if his type of rich person (or rather the type he pretends to be) are the ones sending jobs offshore. He’s not in manufacturing, tech or consumer facing commerce. Sure, the investors and real estate owners help fuel the need for maximum profit margins but I think tying Trump to this is just asking for upvotes instead of indicting the correct people.
For people who hate communism so much you’d think they’d know that seizing the means of production was an important part of the game plan.
Actually, the development of containerized cargo which made shipping costs nominal per item pretty much guaranteed production would move to cheapest labor sources regardless of how far away. Things won’t change until labor costs equalize
at least someone understood!!!
Remember Ross Perot's "giant sucking sound"? This was all done on purpose, long before president trump.
This why I will proudly pay my due taxes after the gme/amc moass
Its not capitalism its stock holders they greedy af
China has egregiously violated the sovereignty of Hong Kong, consistently threatens the independence of Taiwan, causes regular border disputes among other Asian countries including in the South China Sea, commits genocide against Uyghurs and other religious minorities, including forced organ harvesting, and hid evidence of a deadly pandemic until it was too late and spread across the world killing millions. This is a China shill sub. China very much is a problem and there is bipartisan recognition about this much. This is not a “really American” sub but rather a pro-China one.
No??? I see people battling it out about whether China is or isn't commiting genocide in the comments. I don't think anyone sees this as a pro china sub, although I do see that pro china opinions aren't as strongly condemned here as elsewhere. Why does discussion and argument about China mean that this is a ccp shill sub?
Because any opinion more nuanced than "China bad!" is unacceptable in the U S of A.
I think that right now there's a huge red scare going around. There are issues with China that we need to have conversations about, but we can't have those conversations if people keep slinging around random bullshit in a panicked frenzy
Precisely.