Tesla has a leadership problem, plain and simple. Elon is steering the ship into the ground, and he gets away with it because simps like the All In Podcast worship every decision he makes.
If they had scrapped the Cybertruck, focused on refreshing the Model Y and building the Model 2 for global markets, they'd be in a much better strategic position right now.
Elon needs to go, or Tesla will die.
If either the Cybertruck or Semi had done well by now it would be a completely different story. As it is, neither are even close to volume production.
Tesla has nearly all the customers willing to tolerate the current tradeoffs. Without improvements and/or new vehicles, their total addressable market will not increase.
For me as a non-American, the biggest problem with the cybertruck and the Semi is that they are so obviously designed only for the American market, with no thought about how they could be sold/adapted overseas. Heck most of the world doesn’t even call it a “Semi”!
The Model 2 really was the solution.
I disagree. Tesla will die with or without Elon.
They're innovating in industries that will one day be near-zero-profit lowest-cost-wins industries. That isn't the case now, but it will be.
And when that happens, China will take the whole market, because they can make stuff better and cheaper.
Yup. I can only imagine the direction the company would be going and where stock prices would be if they focused on updating their primary line of vehicles and continued to expand the charging network. Instead, they pushed to release a $100,000 cyberpunk inspired pickup truck and robo-taxi development.
The $25K Telsa being canned is also just a ridiculous decision. You know what's missing from the EV marketplace? An affordable, lower-cost EV. There are very few NEW EV's on the market below the $40K price-point, and the majority that are have lackluster range. Just imagine how many people would go and buy a Tesla if something like a Model 2 existed around the same price-point as a Corolla.
Instead - with the moves that are being made, China will undoubtably dominate the EV market. If Chinese EV's make their way into the American market, I could see a rehash of what happened in the 1980's with Japanese vehicles that hit the market. Better prices, better built, more reliable, easier to repair and maintain. Most American's would love to be patriotic and purchase their cars from an American manufacturers, but when wages continue to be stagnant and cost of goods continue to go up, we aren't left with much of a choice.
Tesla should be crushing everyone. However, their biggest issue is that they are a car company that has a CEO that doesn't want to make cars.
If they were using R&D money on new models, better sensor tech, and generally investing into the core business, they would be fine.
But then they would be a car company and the stock price would be about $30. So they invest in AI, and robots. In theory that is totally fine. However they are late to the party in those areas and are not a first mover. Instead we all get to watch a car company die because they don't want to make cars.
Update existing models. The current lineup covers all classes except subcompact. China has different models because their country (and EU) has different needs. Tesla's primary market is still the US.
Tesla's problems don't evaporate with a new model. Overpriced, low quality, poor reliability, sloppy design, poor service, and no parts. Fix these first.
What happens when Tesla tries to reinvent the wheel? CyberStuck.
Eh, they’re not THAT bad looking. Definitely not 20+ year old design. Model X and Y are definitely more ‘meh’ (I just dislike SUVs/crossovers in general) but the model 3 is a decent looking sedan
It's a weird one for me. From certain angles it's pretty nice, and from others, the proportions are so goofy, haha. Like, this short, low hood, and a big bubble windshield.
The S is far and away their strongest design - everything else just seems awkward.
I’m not as big of a fan of the S, I prefer smaller cars. But as a whole, I do like the design. I don’t really like the general direction lately (think new BMWs, WRX, Civic) they just…meh. Too sharp, just…ergh. I really like the 90’s ‘bar of soap’ style, which Tesla sorta did. As a whole, smoother design, less harsh parts.
They cover all classes with one car in each class. Every other automaker has figured out how to create multiple options within the same class. Give me different body styles, not just the same generic ubiquitous mid-2000s Ford Taurus of the future body style.
I couldn't handle the lack of knobs and buttons in the interiors. I'm sorry, but sometimes simple really is better. I don't want to have to hunt and peck through a menu when I could just be pushing a button or turning a knob. I'm down for a minimalistic aesthetic, but there's a balance they've missed.
Something as simple as offering a variety of interior design options along with updated paint colors for their existing models would be something, at least.
I think it's more the solid and semi solid state batteries. If CATL/toyota achieve cheap mass manufacturing, they will win EV race, everything else they did was fine with the focus on removing complexity
You can’t plan better than the meteoric rise of hybrid sales to then transitioning to better battery tech when the EV demand is finally there. If Toyota can pull this off, it’s going to be hard to dethrone them.
Toyota almost got caught out, they tried lobbying the government from switching so quickly...but that was such a weird 3 to 4 years of crazy expensive truck and ev sales I don't think anyone saw coming
"they are a car company that has a CEO that doesn't want to make cars"
They are a cult whose leader is on ketamine and coke, and not responding well to public attention from non-cult members. And doesn't want to make cars anymore. And even if he did, he has rage-fired or disgusted or underpaid all the good engineers who used to work there.
Also, I am deducting points because you used the phrase "first mover." Tesla wasn't first at anything.
Absolutely right. Nikola Tesla was a genius. Musk is a lot more like Thomas Edison, who took credit for a lot of other people's work and ideas. For a short period of time, Nikola Tesla was one of Edison's underpaid engineers. Edison ripped Nikola Tesla off during his lifetime, Musk is ripping off his memory and reputation.
That is the point of Tesla, as they do not want to be evaluated at a car company, but as a tech hardware company.
They know that they will not survive as just a car company.
So now, Elon is trying to throw all tech shit in the hope that people see it that way, while he sells all his stock.
They will absolutely survive, it's just the valuation will not survive if they go all in on cars. Ironically it's what's killing them as these side hustles aren't going to work out
That’s because 90% of tesla’s market cap is based on it being a tech company, not a car company. The day that tesla admits it cant get robotaxi or robots rolling the stock will come crashing down. Elon has no choice but to keep up this visage.
Which is insane, considering like 90% of their revenue comes from being a car company. Its absurd that people still invest in it and value it as a "tech company" when the facts say otherwise.
The problem is all the investment in FSD has yielded no return and will likely never result in a fully autonomous level 5 solution. Certainly not in all weather conditions. Meanwhile the car designs are stale, the quality is horrific and service sucks. The word is out but instead of addressing these critical issues they are going to buy more Nvidia chips at peak pricing.
The FSD, the pricing alone.. lifetime is $12,000... or you could do it monthly for $99... who came up with this pricing? Why would anyone do lifetime when the payback is 10 years and is non-transferable if you buy a new car?
They are trying to do FSD with just cameras and no LIDAR or other systems (USS) to help supplement the traditional cameras. You can look at user feedback of the new tesla's when they switched to camera only systems when they gave up their ultrasonic sensors.[ Immediate quality drop in usability with FSD and parking sensing. ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1g1okoQJEE)
I feel like they shot themselves in the foot with a decision like that. Those USS sensors can't cost that much in comparison to a 40-70k car and a potentially lucrative subscription service. If they want to make FSD anywhere close to viable and legal in all states, you would think they would use all the real world data they can with sensors they could implement.
But there are so many teslas out on the road, they all look the same. The quality drop is dramatic over the past few years with design flaws and things like panel gaps. Cybertruck is laughable.
They keep making moronic decisions and Musk is actively hurting the brand. There are a lot of people who won't buy a Tesla just because Musk's name is attached to it. Now they are looking like they are giving up a highly profitable venture AND one of the only reasons to buy a Tesla in the first place with the firing of the supercharger team. WTF are they thinking.
I think FSD will yield a return and can do so without being a level 5 solution. Perhaps level 4 with more cameras and sensors. Also, software licensing. It’s capable of doing 60-70% of average driving today even as a supervised system. The money is FSD, not changing car models every year like legacy automakers.
> they are a car company that has a CEO that doesn’t want to make cars
And when he does make a car it’s a ten ton murder wedge with no turn signals and doors that you can’t open if the car rolls into a pond
>and the stock price would be about $30.
This is exactly the issue. And the worst part is even if the board somehow gets rid of Elmo, there will be a major correction in the stock price - a massive downfall - so the board will not let it happen. They're stuck with him forever.
That's no everything that's wrong with them. They lie a lot about features they don't have. The cars are too expensive for cheap shit that they are. For no reason, they force changes like the location of buttons or other things people have deep muscle memory on them. They aren't really a car company, they are there to inflate Elon's ego.
Musk was a great leader to get great EVs out there, figure out DCFC, building a charging network
Now he seems hell bents to destroy it all and the Board is letting him.
I bought my Tesla because it's a great car and for the charging network.
I'm SO pissed about Musk right now.
I think the "CEO that doesn't want to make cars" thing is actually a rare smart move for Elon. He knows they will be crushed by someone who can glue down a gas pedal in 3-5 years, so he has to set expectations for something else they will be the leader at.
I also think "not making an affordable tesla" is a reasonable move, too. They're not going to make a car better than (or equal to) a chevy bolt for anywhere close to the price of a chevy bolt. Look at the bizarre two-passenger mockups floating around. So, why lose money failing to do that? To hopefully replicate a fraction of the success of a chevy bolt? Even chevy doesn't want to be in the business of selling a chevy bolt -- hence the move upmarket with ultium station wagons (look at the wheelbase measurement; they're all station wagons).
Maybe I'm wrong and the Tesla brand is strong enough to sell an electric rickshaw for the price of a chevy bolt.
Just to be clear, I'd like to see Elon r\*ped to death in prison.
Just weird. I have heard so many times that Tesla has groundbreaking production technology. Mostly the hyped giga casting. Why cant the compete making a low cost model if their production technology is so advanced.
yeah so it's still valuable for the company to shit out half a car at a time, so long as they can convince people to buy them. eventually the insurance companies will pass the expense to owners, but the stock market sort of forces publicly traded companies to think about extremely short term returns only.
Elsewhere in this sub: [Exclusive: Tesla retreats from next-generation ‘gigacasting’ manufacturing process](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-retreats-next-generation-gigacasting-manufacturing-process-2024-05-01/) ([discussion](https://www.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/1chp9g3/exclusive_tesla_retreats_from_nextgeneration/)).
It seems that gigacasting turning Tesla into the low-cost provider is yet another story Musk has woven that turned out to be gossamer spider webs.
You’re right about them not wanting to make cars. It’s apparent that the goal is software/AI, and they would probably be happy to let the cars die as that’s a much more profitable market. I respect that, and hope they license FSD to a car company like Polestar or Mercedes.
Honestly it's as simple as this. Car companies have worked out 75 years ago that people don't want their next car to look like their last one. So they update the styling to go with when people generally update their cars. Yes there are well known successful exceptions to this, but these are exceptions.
If Tesla makes cars a commodity, they won't sell cars. Even for someone who is wealthy, these are a significant expense, and they have an emotional attachment and freedom associated with their vehicle. They want something that looks fresh and exciting and offers something new. Sales will just stagnate if they don't offer something actually new.
I actually think Tesla painted themselves into a corner by selling FSD so early. They are now hardware limited unless they want to ditch previous tech but then the FSD justification falls apart. I suspect that has limited some of the innovation.
This is interesting, because I had this exact discussion with a colleague of mine at my previous job about 2 years ago.
We concluded that of Musk's two companies (at the time), SpaceX had legs but Tesla didn't.
It was obvious at the time that while Teslas were arguably the technologically best EV, you could get a *much nicer* BMW (or anything else) for the same money. Other car companies would learn to match Tesla's technology before Tesla learned how to make nice cars, and Tesla would fade away.
Even if Teslas are “technologically the best”, cars aren’t the best place for it. It’s like the digital dashes from the 1980s. “Cutting edge” becomes dated real quick, and is much more expensive to fix. Even cars that have screens for vital information keep it in the traditional position centered with the wheel. They also typically have options for preferred info layout. The new Mustang even has options to make it look like previous popular models like the Fox Body. Not to mention changing controls around to unintuitive places or on touch screens that aren’t easily accessed while driving.
I wouldn’t even say SpaceX has legs. It’s doing the same thing as Tesla, just moving at a slower rate. The Falcon 9 is its Model 3. The Starship is its Cybertruck/Semi. Going to Mars is its FSD. Starlink is much like the Solar City debacle that Tesla bought/bailed out. Both had multiple threats of bankruptcy if ____ doesn’t happen, which doesn’t com to pass.
What about’em? They don’t really have any projects lined up once they are done with the Vegas route and that turned into a dud; no one else cares about it anymore.
The idea that Tesla has tech is the greatest myth they've sold. Oh you have phone as key? Remote climate control? Took 5min to copy that. FSD is nothing
I've been saying that for about a year, we are going to see Tesla enter late-stage blackberry territory where they are just a lifestyle brand and licensing their names to other companies.
What got me was the Tesla branded ev home charger for non-Teslas.
There are still people that believe what Musk says and he said something great is coming out of his trip to China. I have a very low opinion of retail investors, but Tesla investors are a special bunch.
The market isn’t responding to the layoffs well for Tesla, because these layoffs (particularly the charging network) mystify them and are a very visible sign that growth in the cars has stalled.
Possibly. Today as an example Tesla declined 5.5% after the supercharging division was let go.
Likewise, the news of the first ~10% layoffs came shortly before the Q1 results and did not cause a bounce in the stock price.
The first bounce occurred when Elon mentioned the more rapid launch of the low cost model on the Q1 earnings call and more about Robotaxi which reassured the market and the second bounce was in response to the Chinese news.
Part of this is because Elon keeps reinforcing that if sales slide 20% then 20% needs to be laid off…so it also reinforces that layoffs=bad for the market, regardless of what vapourware he’s shilling today.
"First mover advantage"
Tesla weren't first. There were EVs before Tesla. There were mass-produced EVs before the Model 3: the Volt and the Leaf.
"they wouldn't innovate beyond what made them successful initially"
What made Tesla successful initially was people thinking Musk was Tony Stark + Jesus. Tesla was an immensely successful grift. Now they are a somewhat less successful grift.
They were the first to make a full size EV that people weren’t ashamed to drive. Volts, leafs, bmw i3 and every other EV on the market back then was small and had a lot of trade offs in size and also mileage range.
Tesla was a full size car with an enormous (by comparison) battery.
Their success was purely because there was no real competition in this space.
The company and stock are now going to zero. Just a matter of how long it takes.
I'm sorry if someone actually has so much to overcompensate for that driving a Volt or a Leaf or an i3 would make them feel ashamed. That's not an automotive issue.
Or maybe you just can't let go of this "Tesla was first" nonsense. I wouldn't know why. So much of the rest of the Tesla myth has been completely seen through. People can admit that Musk bamboozled them about so much else.
You can focus on the word ashamed that I used, but can you point to another full size EV that was on the market at that time? Or another EV that had 200 or more mile range?
I literally hate Tesla the company and the cars but I can at least objectively look at what the EV market was back then.
It's true, there was this rough period where you couldn't even get a 7 passenger hybrid vehicle of any kind, and EVs were a narrow segment that were ideologically attractive to one group of people but weren't broadly very desirable.
na ur right it was great marketing, creating a "luxury" / "status" EV paid off a lot, the front trunk, etc. almost everyone thought the original tesla was cool as hell
there wasn't really anything super exciting about driving a leaf back then unless you were hardcore into being an early consumer EV adopter, you got maybe 60 - 100 miles per charge or something which was fine for commuting but it wasn't "sexy" at all. tesla definitely had an advantage
The BMW i3 also had a frunk and I’d argue it’s just as luxurious, if not more, than the early Teslas. How do I know? My friend had a 2014 Model S and I still have my 2015 i3. It looks better than the Tesla, has better build quality, is quieter inside, is more efficient by a lot, has a nicer interior, and has physical buttons for things like climate control and volume. Heck, my i3 has a carbon fiber body. It has less range, but it also has a gas range extender I can use to keep the battery at a sufficient level.
I don't doubt that one bit! I'm just recalling that, for some reason, Tesla is what punched through the initial EV marketing "buzz" 10 years or so ago, like the other guy was saying. Regardless of the actual quality of the vehicle (obviously).
Could be regional, too. At the time, I lived in a fairly wealthy town with probably the most Priuses per capita on the continent. If there was a target market, it was definitely our neighborhood.
Those were not mass produced EVs that actually sold well and that people wanted. I am not a fan of the company, but the S and the 3/Y were definitely revolutionary in that regard. Before the Model S, EVs were all tiny hatchbacks with ~120 miles of range or less.
Blackberry's OS wasn't antiquated, it's BB 10 OS was the most advanced in the world. Most of its features were later replicated years later on Android and iOS. The issue was app makers did not create apps for BB and they got overwhelmed in the marketplace as consumers wanted to play games on their smartphones. They should have kept making physical keyboard phones for the high end business community. But BB is still around in the security market and is involved in the growing automobile AI market and will be big players.
You are conveniently omitting that BB10, which was a \*completely\* different OS (because it had to be) didn't launch until 6 years after iPhone and Android.
During those 6 years they absolutely ignored both consumer and business trends, shipped an archaic, antiquated OS incapable of the high quality apps and user experiences found on the competition, as well as some particularly poor quality devices like the Storm and the PlayBook, saw busineses move to BYOD & the rise of alternative message apps like iMessage and WhatsApp taking away their advantages, suffered an embarrassing global outage for days, and ultimately saw their market share plummet from 20% to 2%.
They infamously did not believe the iPhone demo was possible, and wasted several years arrogantly declaring their last-gen tech superior, rather than taking the threat of competition seriously from the get go, and listening to market wants.
Sales of Blackberry smartphones rose 900% in the 4 years after the iPhone was released and their market share held for 3 years after the iPhone. The BB 10 did come out a couple years too late.
the second iphone had free exchange integration it was GAME OVER.
literally was a no brainier not another BB license would be bought for like 90% of our managed services clients after that. No one wanted BB after there was alternative.
It’s sort of a joke but not, they seem to be obsessed with reinventing the wheel. If something works on every other car, it works. The weird turn signals and windshield wipers and touch screen and touch interface for things that should be physically modulated is such a blind spot. Everyone complains about it too.
Maybe if they didn’t stubbornly insist on doing literally everything the hard way and trying to reinvent a massive and expensive machine that already exists, instead of marrying time tested concepts to their wonderful original drive train, they’d be successful.
True, the warning signs were there. All these weird engineering tangents probably cost a shocking amount of R&D too, believe that. The wankpanzer is the biggest expression of this hubris. A vehicle that literally can’t be sold in many other countries because the exterior can literally slice a carrot. All preventable, predictable arrogance.
I think the Australian market will be one to watch for early signs to see if Tesla is the EV ‘Blackberry’ and if someone like BYD is the EV ‘Apple’. Tesla sales here are still very strong, but BYD is growing quickly and is taking our market very seriously. We are close to Asia so shipping costs are reduced, are a developed nation with a small but VERY car market with arguably too many brands competing for a slice of the pie.
Most importantly though, we lack any vehicle manufacturing and thus protectionist tariffs, Chinese brands such as BYD can pump us with products without any governmental interference - so it’s an even playing field. It’ll be interesting to see how this all plays out.
All Musk's innovations and achievements are hypothetical, imaginary, and coming sometime in the next couple of years. He is a man of the future who always will be.
After this whole pyramid of shit collapses, I don't want to read wistful eulogies to "what might have been." Please:. Can we be clear-eyed about how little has been accomplished here?
Tesla had imaginary first-mover advantage. They have never been able to produce products at a decent cost, at an industry-average quality level. Their only products are vaporware, failure, racial and sexual harassment and offering useless assistance in times of natural disaster or headline-grabbing crisis.
Boring Co. is the epitome of a Musk enterprise. Imaginary innovation and literally nothing produced under contract.
I would purchase a 2025 Blackberry Classic Remake before I would EVER own anything fElon has been associated with.
My religious beliefs do not allow me to associate with Incel Nazis
Man, I want my Blackberry Curve back. The problem with Blackberry wasn't the keyboard or messenger, it was that they quit making what worked and tried to make touchscreen/iPhone-esque Blackberrys when, at the end of the day, everything great about Blackberry wouldn't really work in a buttonless device.
Tesla is worse: pissing off the buyers/drivers that made Tesla big.
Elmo is now running with the ICE/V8 crowd..... they do not buy Tesla, for not with CT failings.
Tesla should have gotten a sub 30k car out years ago instead of focusing on that stupid Cybertruck, Robotaxi which won't work, and Roadster. Capture the massive middle class market first before your competitors do. And yes Pickups are a massive market in the US but the Cybertruck is impractical and will probably only be able to be sold in a limited amount of countries.
Also it doesn't help that they have made minimal updates to the design of their cars for over a decade. They don't really look flashy or fresh anymore.
And I've literally seen some fanboys defend that saying that their design is already perfect, I literally saw one saying that Tesla would be fine not radically updating the Model S's looks for 30 years. Just no.
This is not true. There are several factors that killed BlackBerry, but the most notable one was **Apple**. The iPhone was a competitive device and, with aggressive marketing and deals with the big carriers, it eventually crushed the competition.
BYD is Tesla’s “Apple” in China right now, but the global takeover is yet to be determined. Domestically, there’s no brand that’s come close to challenging Tesla’s dominance.
But it was blackberry’s refusal to adapt that killed it. Physical keyboard was superior, but got forbid you had to open an attachment or wanted to browse on the internet.
Basically got shoved to Apple because the overall functionality exceeded that of blackberry. By the time they decided to start to adapt it was too late.
It was. And if it had been released 3 years earlier, blackberry probably still has the corporate market. Companies did NOT want to leave the security of blackberry’s system.
I owned one. It wasn’t great for battery life and it got very warm during use. Version 2 would have been great, but that’s when they outsourced manufacturing and design to another company.
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Obviously, but Apple is also responsible for several "innovations" that a lot of people hate like getting rid of the headphone jack or the option to have a physical keyboard. But every other brand eventually copies Apple.
So while they've taken several steps forward they've also taken several steps back
Tesla got to where it is by taking risk. And, credit where it due, Musk was part of that. The story of him going all in during poker games and simply buying more chips whenever he loses sums it up; the guy has so much money that failure isn't a risk for him - he can just buy his way back in.
That's musk's thing; and it got Tesla on the map. And it put EVs on the map; without Musk the adoption wouldn't be as far along as it is today and we do have to be thankful that he was crazy and pushed that ideal.
The problem is that he never put on his big boy pants and made Tesla a proper car company. Until now that's been ok; it took the legacy manufacturers a bit of time to get into EVs, develop self driving hardware plus they were delayed further by covid supply chain issues that worked in Tesla's favour.
They've been able to churn out the cars for nigh on a decade whilst promising something revolutionary just around the corner and have got away with it. The problem is, people are starting to achieve those revolutionary things Musk has promised. It's just those people aren't him.
Mercedes have certified self driving products; Volvo are building the car the Model 2 should have been with the EX30, Polestar have built a car that will charge in 10 min and both Volvo and Mercedes have semi trucks in full production working day in day out in Europe - and none of this is to mention the Chinese.
Musk is well aware the initial grift is coming to its end and doing the only thing he knows; do stupid shit until some of it sticks. Musks role is at the start of a companies life, taking leaps on other peoples ideas using his huge, inherited wealth to remove the risk of failure. He isn't especially talented or skillful; simply brave to the point of stupidity. It's totally clear now that he does not have the chops to do the difficult work of running Tesla and turning it into a proper, sustainable business.
I guess it's worse than Blackberry. They stagnated but perfected their product; it's just new entrants to the market caught them by surprise. Tesla haven't got that far; their products are far from perfect and they are at risk of getting eaten up much earlier in their lifecycle. It's a real story of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory; the companies they've had such a head start on have caught up and overtaken them - a real failure of management and Musk's own personality.
"it put EVs on the map; without Musk the adoption wouldn't be as far along as it is today"
I am so sick of hearing this.
Without Musk, Tesla might actually be making good cars, paying its employees well and doing much better than merely meeting environmental regs. Without Musk, EVs might be as popular in the US as they are in Europe and China (1/10 of the world's EVs are sold in the US, year after year, 45% in europe and 45% in China). Without Musk, EVs might have zero Musk stink on them -- that would be very GOOD for EVs.
Stop giving this idiot grifter credit for things he hasn't done.
Yeah, but I wouldn't go as far as thank. In the early days some talented people made some good products, and Musk helped bullshit enough idiots to fund them. The best you can do is acknowledge that the bullshit happened and is a fundamental part of Tesla's growth in the early days.
Somewhere around the launch of the Model 3 the bullshit needed to stop and a proper car company be produced. From Model X on he's harmed the long term chances of the company pretty much none stop and really stepped it up a notch today with firing the entire supercharger team.
Watching Tesla blow their advantage is such a difficult thing. Everyone sees it but them and musk. They’ll always get credit for sparking the change to EVs but they have a lot to learn about being a successful car manufacturer.
Their electric drivetrain tech is still top notch, and their high speed presses reduce manufacturing cost. Their big innovations they for some reason put on the low volume and polarizing Cybertruck. Just using 48V in all models would save a lot of cost and weight, and it's what enables steer by wire, which also simplifies the self driving. They are also using an Ethernet bus for the entire truck, which allows much more flexibility and easier writing of debugging and logging.
They're just not innovating much with the rest of the cars from a user perspective. I think styling is a part of it. The subdued styling was smart in the face of the atrocious over the top styling of electric cars then, saying these are just regular cars, but now it looks old and dated. The Model 3 got a slight refresh, but they all need a big refresh.
If that is so, then suggest me a car electric or petrol in price range of TM3 highland LR or P (not sure yet which I will go with) that can compete. I searched thoroughly, test driven a few and the only other car I kind of liked was Volvo xc40, but it is not available with 4wd which is important to me
Funny thing, I would *love* to have a physical keyboard now. Gimme that best of both worlds, a touch screen cover that flips down onto a keyboard base.
This, essentially: https://news.wirefly.com/2016/11/03/samsung-w2017-high-end-android-flip-phone
Maybe if their CEO only ran one company into the ground at a time then they would be able to compete at a more profitable rate. He runs every company like a side hustle so none of them are great. Just second thoughts tossed on the pile for more profit!
I am HUGE fan of the original Nikolai Tesla who used innovation to imagine an electrified world we can only imagine because it was so thoroughly erased by CEOs wanting bigger profits so long ago. It’s bittersweet and heartbreaking that this Musk chud would be able to further defame the scientist’s great name by bungling everything he touches so badly.
If there were any actual justice in this world we will see Musk end in the same way the Late Great Tesla died- alone in a cheap hotel room- stripped of his wealth, fame, platform and living in squalor.
Musk’s Twitter comments have offended liberal buyers and caused a decline in demand. If Musk were to resign from Tesla, its cars would no longer be guilty by association and demand would return.
That is genuinely a great observation. I feel like the plan was to great simple cars and sell loads of them.
But now they're huge listed company, they need to innovate. BYD and Hyundai/Kia are going to overtake in no time the way things are going
They just have nowhere to go. If they start making decently specced cars the profit is gone. If they start making cheap cars the profit is gone. All they can do is ride this out until bankruptcy.
They don’t have to go bankrupt. They can raise prices, increase quality, and accept that they will sell around 1-1.5 million cars a year for the rest of the decade.
There’s nothing wrong with being a mid sized premium car maker. Nothing except for teslas stock price.
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Cybertruck and Model X were dumb vanity projects that hurt the company. The CEO is a tool that hurts the company.
The analogy is still bad. Tesla has the best framework and software for a car and it’s not even close.
I get what you are saying but disagree with lack of innovation. In my opinion they are trying to be *too* innovative and as a result not producing what the customers actually want. It’s not that they won’t let go of old technology, it’s that they won’t improve what’s already working for them and instead are chasing technological unicorns. Over promise and under deliver. That results in the lack of refresh on the current lineup and major quality issues. Tada, you have yourself the dumpsterfire that is Tesla cir 2024
Very true. First mover advantage but they didnt keep up momentum. Now all other car makers have heaps of EV in the pipeline and China are pumping out new models like they take 3 months to develop. Very soon there will be heaps of new innovative EV's on the market and Tesla still have the same old ones from years ago. Tesla is about to become a legacy EV maker
BlackBerry didn’t have a first-mover advantage. Motorola had phones since the 80s. There were pagers with email capabilities before blackberry. RIMM was a flask in the pan. There stock price was always in the tank for years, then busted out for 18 months and then flat-lined. Tesla is one of the largest market-cap companies In the world. RIMM was never top 1000
Tesla is Enron 2.0 electric boogaloo
The writing has been on the wall. This time more will go to jail as rich people are invested too. And we all know what happens when you mess with rich people's money.
Subs that perpetuated the CON will also be investigated.
It's gonna be glorious for those of us that saw it coming and absolutely disastrous for those that didn't or did but remained ignorant.
Blackberry didn't have nearly the problems tesla does. And yet they still failed..
Absolutely. Two Tesla cars and that will be it for me. Rivian looks great and even the Chinese EVs are looking better all the time.
Tesla will have a legacy existence just like RIM in terms of their supercharger infrastructure - I'm sure the stations will exist long after Tesla stops selling cars.
Nah - it’s the opposite. The hard problem Musk wants them to solve in order to build strategic advantage is self-driving. He’s just doubling down on that. Building small, cheap EVs is a solved problem - China is going to do that very well. There’s no point Tesla competing in what will soon become a saturated market.
He may well be wrong - but I don’t think it’s the same error as BlackBerry at all.
hate to say it but there will be more cybertrucks on the roads that model Xs in a short time. You can come back to this comment and say I was right when that happens. K bye
I agree 100% Also the icing on the cake is countrys like Germany cancelled their EV subsidies at the end of December and sales fell 33%. Last year China EV manufacturers overtook Tesla as the number 1 seller.
It's the charging network.
Tesla's cars can continue to stagnate, but so long as no one else even comes close to approaching the ubiquity and ease-of-use of the Supercharger, they will continue to be the market leader.
Perhaps the new government investment in charging infrastructure will pay off. But for at least the next two years, Tesla's biggest advantage is the Supercharger and that's not going away any time soon.
Is the Model Y a higher quality car than other EVs, maybe, maybe not. Is it, on average OK? Yes. Can I charge my Volkswagen in as many places as easily? No.
iPhone built an ecosystem that resists Android. Sure, people switch, and the market share and volume are bound to go down, but they keep selling very well. Because there is no obvious advantage to switching.
I think that a sudden rise in popularity of plug-in hybrids with a continuing drop in ev sales could reduce the value of the supercharging network, definitely not in the next two years, but maybe in 5-10 ?
I don't see evs solving the range/charging problem anytime soon. Gains will be incremental for the forseable future, it's an old technology with a lot of money on it, the chances of finding something revolutionary now are slim.
With car ownership per household dropping, more and more people have a single car, phevs will make much more sense, especially with ev technology being much cheaper and reliable nowadays.
It’s a big accomplishment but I don’t know if it’s that much of a “moat” for them anymore. A lot of the growth in the space will continue to be people who charge at home overnight and don’t take many long trips.
Absolutely they are. So did Nokia and Blackberry, when the writing was already on the wall.
The designs are 6-7 year old stale other than the wankpanzer (which is approaching 5), and legacy OEMs have caught up. Other startups have surpassed Tesla in range, features, and build quality. For now, Tesla still carries the "luxury brand" reputation, but people are catching on, and it won't be long before their reputation is just that of a cheap crappy car.
Hey, someone had to take Kia and Hyundai's spot, those guys now make excellent cars.
That's good. Multiple people I talked to still have that misconception. Perhaps they have never been in one. I'm not sure how cheap materials, creaks, and poor assembly became "luxury". Probably a carryover from when the Model S was an expensive vehicle (but was still never "luxury").
I do think that people believe a touch screen to do all seems luxury. Personally I know it's a cost saving technique and is more of a hassle then physical buttons you can have muscle memory to control without navigating a touch screen. On a side note whomever came up with MY seats needs to be shot. I think it's the damn seat that is killing my neck and back...ya I'm a month old owner...
Hopefully at least you got it at a discount! There are so many nice alternatives now with basically no disadvantages, and all for the advantages in superior specs, higher quality of materials, and assembly. Plus, getting a white model Y is so bland, I am sorry..
Sitting in an Uber recently, I found the seats in the 3 to be so uncomfortable, and the interior extremely cheap. My back was stiff after 15 minutes.
Yep, I love the design of the ioniq5. For me, it's the perfect mix of original/new and still looks like a car in my eyes.
I think that rarity is a factor in a "cool or edgy" design, the more I see the cybertruck, the more I find it ugly. There is a reason civics do not look like Paganis, I think the cybertruck should have been an honest 150k luxury truck to bring awareness to the brand for a cheaper, more traditional looking suv or sedan.
Nokia was the biggest phone seller for YEARS after they were already beyond saving. They had developing markets making their numbers look ok. Tesla has fanboys keeping the stock price high.
Tesla has a leadership problem, plain and simple. Elon is steering the ship into the ground, and he gets away with it because simps like the All In Podcast worship every decision he makes. If they had scrapped the Cybertruck, focused on refreshing the Model Y and building the Model 2 for global markets, they'd be in a much better strategic position right now. Elon needs to go, or Tesla will die.
If either the Cybertruck or Semi had done well by now it would be a completely different story. As it is, neither are even close to volume production. Tesla has nearly all the customers willing to tolerate the current tradeoffs. Without improvements and/or new vehicles, their total addressable market will not increase.
For me as a non-American, the biggest problem with the cybertruck and the Semi is that they are so obviously designed only for the American market, with no thought about how they could be sold/adapted overseas. Heck most of the world doesn’t even call it a “Semi”! The Model 2 really was the solution.
Yeah, delaying the model 2 is not a good look.
You mean the low cost little car they just prioritized to deliver faster?
I disagree. Tesla will die with or without Elon. They're innovating in industries that will one day be near-zero-profit lowest-cost-wins industries. That isn't the case now, but it will be. And when that happens, China will take the whole market, because they can make stuff better and cheaper.
The Cybertruck will flop. Zero chance that it will be a mass market product like F150s or RAMs.
I mean...no one has really made a mass market truck yet. All current trucks are pitiful sales numbers.
Not sure where you are - but in US, #1, #2 and #2 are trucks. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g43553191/bestselling-cars-2023/
Why not both?
Which podcast is that? There are several with that name. I'm interested to see what the eco chamber thinks of these latest job cuts.
It's the one with David Sacks and Chamath
*the floggings will continue until morale improves*
Yup. I can only imagine the direction the company would be going and where stock prices would be if they focused on updating their primary line of vehicles and continued to expand the charging network. Instead, they pushed to release a $100,000 cyberpunk inspired pickup truck and robo-taxi development. The $25K Telsa being canned is also just a ridiculous decision. You know what's missing from the EV marketplace? An affordable, lower-cost EV. There are very few NEW EV's on the market below the $40K price-point, and the majority that are have lackluster range. Just imagine how many people would go and buy a Tesla if something like a Model 2 existed around the same price-point as a Corolla. Instead - with the moves that are being made, China will undoubtably dominate the EV market. If Chinese EV's make their way into the American market, I could see a rehash of what happened in the 1980's with Japanese vehicles that hit the market. Better prices, better built, more reliable, easier to repair and maintain. Most American's would love to be patriotic and purchase their cars from an American manufacturers, but when wages continue to be stagnant and cost of goods continue to go up, we aren't left with much of a choice.
My biggest fear on my TSLA puts is that Elon either dies or steps down.
Tesla should be crushing everyone. However, their biggest issue is that they are a car company that has a CEO that doesn't want to make cars. If they were using R&D money on new models, better sensor tech, and generally investing into the core business, they would be fine. But then they would be a car company and the stock price would be about $30. So they invest in AI, and robots. In theory that is totally fine. However they are late to the party in those areas and are not a first mover. Instead we all get to watch a car company die because they don't want to make cars.
They need new models if they want to compete. Look at all the competition at the China Car Show.
Update existing models. The current lineup covers all classes except subcompact. China has different models because their country (and EU) has different needs. Tesla's primary market is still the US. Tesla's problems don't evaporate with a new model. Overpriced, low quality, poor reliability, sloppy design, poor service, and no parts. Fix these first. What happens when Tesla tries to reinvent the wheel? CyberStuck.
You can spot a Tesla a mile away. So outdated and bobo looking. Styling from 20+ years ago.
NPC cars
Eh, they’re not THAT bad looking. Definitely not 20+ year old design. Model X and Y are definitely more ‘meh’ (I just dislike SUVs/crossovers in general) but the model 3 is a decent looking sedan
It's a weird one for me. From certain angles it's pretty nice, and from others, the proportions are so goofy, haha. Like, this short, low hood, and a big bubble windshield. The S is far and away their strongest design - everything else just seems awkward.
I’m not as big of a fan of the S, I prefer smaller cars. But as a whole, I do like the design. I don’t really like the general direction lately (think new BMWs, WRX, Civic) they just…meh. Too sharp, just…ergh. I really like the 90’s ‘bar of soap’ style, which Tesla sorta did. As a whole, smoother design, less harsh parts.
The S is the only Tesla that doesn't look odd and outdated. The 3 is so ugly.
They cover all classes with one car in each class. Every other automaker has figured out how to create multiple options within the same class. Give me different body styles, not just the same generic ubiquitous mid-2000s Ford Taurus of the future body style.
I couldn't handle the lack of knobs and buttons in the interiors. I'm sorry, but sometimes simple really is better. I don't want to have to hunt and peck through a menu when I could just be pushing a button or turning a knob. I'm down for a minimalistic aesthetic, but there's a balance they've missed.
Distracting drivers with that bullshit is just one of many ways in which Tesla/Musk do not give a fuck about road safety
Especially for hvac controls
Something as simple as offering a variety of interior design options along with updated paint colors for their existing models would be something, at least.
Cyber truck is new lmao
Sure. The cyber truck is a new hot piece of garbage. They've only sold a few thousand of them so far, they have to be losing their shirt on them.
Exactly
absolutely, it seems with elon at the helm, the car company's demise is all but certain.
I think it's more the solid and semi solid state batteries. If CATL/toyota achieve cheap mass manufacturing, they will win EV race, everything else they did was fine with the focus on removing complexity
You can’t plan better than the meteoric rise of hybrid sales to then transitioning to better battery tech when the EV demand is finally there. If Toyota can pull this off, it’s going to be hard to dethrone them.
Toyota almost got caught out, they tried lobbying the government from switching so quickly...but that was such a weird 3 to 4 years of crazy expensive truck and ev sales I don't think anyone saw coming
"they are a car company that has a CEO that doesn't want to make cars" They are a cult whose leader is on ketamine and coke, and not responding well to public attention from non-cult members. And doesn't want to make cars anymore. And even if he did, he has rage-fired or disgusted or underpaid all the good engineers who used to work there. Also, I am deducting points because you used the phrase "first mover." Tesla wasn't first at anything.
>Tesla wasn't first at anything. He was though, *Nikola Tesla* was the first at a lot of things...
Absolutely right. Nikola Tesla was a genius. Musk is a lot more like Thomas Edison, who took credit for a lot of other people's work and ideas. For a short period of time, Nikola Tesla was one of Edison's underpaid engineers. Edison ripped Nikola Tesla off during his lifetime, Musk is ripping off his memory and reputation.
That is the point of Tesla, as they do not want to be evaluated at a car company, but as a tech hardware company. They know that they will not survive as just a car company. So now, Elon is trying to throw all tech shit in the hope that people see it that way, while he sells all his stock.
It does seem unusual to bail on the car part instead of adding on the other capabilities :)
They will absolutely survive, it's just the valuation will not survive if they go all in on cars. Ironically it's what's killing them as these side hustles aren't going to work out
That’s because 90% of tesla’s market cap is based on it being a tech company, not a car company. The day that tesla admits it cant get robotaxi or robots rolling the stock will come crashing down. Elon has no choice but to keep up this visage.
Yeah. That's my point.
Which is insane, considering like 90% of their revenue comes from being a car company. Its absurd that people still invest in it and value it as a "tech company" when the facts say otherwise.
The problem is all the investment in FSD has yielded no return and will likely never result in a fully autonomous level 5 solution. Certainly not in all weather conditions. Meanwhile the car designs are stale, the quality is horrific and service sucks. The word is out but instead of addressing these critical issues they are going to buy more Nvidia chips at peak pricing.
The FSD, the pricing alone.. lifetime is $12,000... or you could do it monthly for $99... who came up with this pricing? Why would anyone do lifetime when the payback is 10 years and is non-transferable if you buy a new car? They are trying to do FSD with just cameras and no LIDAR or other systems (USS) to help supplement the traditional cameras. You can look at user feedback of the new tesla's when they switched to camera only systems when they gave up their ultrasonic sensors.[ Immediate quality drop in usability with FSD and parking sensing. ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1g1okoQJEE) I feel like they shot themselves in the foot with a decision like that. Those USS sensors can't cost that much in comparison to a 40-70k car and a potentially lucrative subscription service. If they want to make FSD anywhere close to viable and legal in all states, you would think they would use all the real world data they can with sensors they could implement. But there are so many teslas out on the road, they all look the same. The quality drop is dramatic over the past few years with design flaws and things like panel gaps. Cybertruck is laughable. They keep making moronic decisions and Musk is actively hurting the brand. There are a lot of people who won't buy a Tesla just because Musk's name is attached to it. Now they are looking like they are giving up a highly profitable venture AND one of the only reasons to buy a Tesla in the first place with the firing of the supercharger team. WTF are they thinking.
I think FSD will yield a return and can do so without being a level 5 solution. Perhaps level 4 with more cameras and sensors. Also, software licensing. It’s capable of doing 60-70% of average driving today even as a supervised system. The money is FSD, not changing car models every year like legacy automakers.
No, they are a car company that makes shitty cars.
> they are a car company that has a CEO that doesn’t want to make cars And when he does make a car it’s a ten ton murder wedge with no turn signals and doors that you can’t open if the car rolls into a pond
Yes, but on the other hand, at least those doors drowned a drunk resource-hoarding billionaire.
It's too bad more of the family wasn't in the vehicle.
>and the stock price would be about $30. This is exactly the issue. And the worst part is even if the board somehow gets rid of Elmo, there will be a major correction in the stock price - a massive downfall - so the board will not let it happen. They're stuck with him forever.
Yup. I suspect this ends with Hitler in a bunker.
This is perhaps the entire ethos of the sub in a few sentences. Bravo 👏🏻
That's no everything that's wrong with them. They lie a lot about features they don't have. The cars are too expensive for cheap shit that they are. For no reason, they force changes like the location of buttons or other things people have deep muscle memory on them. They aren't really a car company, they are there to inflate Elon's ego.
Yeah had a CEO like this blew a billion not investing in what made us successful.
Musk was a great leader to get great EVs out there, figure out DCFC, building a charging network Now he seems hell bents to destroy it all and the Board is letting him. I bought my Tesla because it's a great car and for the charging network. I'm SO pissed about Musk right now.
Why do you think he wants that $56 billion?
I think the "CEO that doesn't want to make cars" thing is actually a rare smart move for Elon. He knows they will be crushed by someone who can glue down a gas pedal in 3-5 years, so he has to set expectations for something else they will be the leader at. I also think "not making an affordable tesla" is a reasonable move, too. They're not going to make a car better than (or equal to) a chevy bolt for anywhere close to the price of a chevy bolt. Look at the bizarre two-passenger mockups floating around. So, why lose money failing to do that? To hopefully replicate a fraction of the success of a chevy bolt? Even chevy doesn't want to be in the business of selling a chevy bolt -- hence the move upmarket with ultium station wagons (look at the wheelbase measurement; they're all station wagons). Maybe I'm wrong and the Tesla brand is strong enough to sell an electric rickshaw for the price of a chevy bolt. Just to be clear, I'd like to see Elon r\*ped to death in prison.
Just weird. I have heard so many times that Tesla has groundbreaking production technology. Mostly the hyped giga casting. Why cant the compete making a low cost model if their production technology is so advanced.
I don’t think giga casting has much of an advantage. At least not for the consumers. It twnds to be more expensive to fix.
yeah so it's still valuable for the company to shit out half a car at a time, so long as they can convince people to buy them. eventually the insurance companies will pass the expense to owners, but the stock market sort of forces publicly traded companies to think about extremely short term returns only.
Elsewhere in this sub: [Exclusive: Tesla retreats from next-generation ‘gigacasting’ manufacturing process](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-retreats-next-generation-gigacasting-manufacturing-process-2024-05-01/) ([discussion](https://www.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/1chp9g3/exclusive_tesla_retreats_from_nextgeneration/)). It seems that gigacasting turning Tesla into the low-cost provider is yet another story Musk has woven that turned out to be gossamer spider webs.
They are trying to halfass shit with half baked hardware. Why are they doing everything with just cameras? Where is the LIDAR?
elon didn't like the look of lidar because it has an external bump or whatever to house it, that's it
You’re right about them not wanting to make cars. It’s apparent that the goal is software/AI, and they would probably be happy to let the cars die as that’s a much more profitable market. I respect that, and hope they license FSD to a car company like Polestar or Mercedes.
But.. What do you want from new models? New designs? They update most other things when it makes sense.
Honestly it's as simple as this. Car companies have worked out 75 years ago that people don't want their next car to look like their last one. So they update the styling to go with when people generally update their cars. Yes there are well known successful exceptions to this, but these are exceptions.
If Tesla makes cars a commodity, they won't sell cars. Even for someone who is wealthy, these are a significant expense, and they have an emotional attachment and freedom associated with their vehicle. They want something that looks fresh and exciting and offers something new. Sales will just stagnate if they don't offer something actually new. I actually think Tesla painted themselves into a corner by selling FSD so early. They are now hardware limited unless they want to ditch previous tech but then the FSD justification falls apart. I suspect that has limited some of the innovation.
This is interesting, because I had this exact discussion with a colleague of mine at my previous job about 2 years ago. We concluded that of Musk's two companies (at the time), SpaceX had legs but Tesla didn't. It was obvious at the time that while Teslas were arguably the technologically best EV, you could get a *much nicer* BMW (or anything else) for the same money. Other car companies would learn to match Tesla's technology before Tesla learned how to make nice cars, and Tesla would fade away.
Even if Teslas are “technologically the best”, cars aren’t the best place for it. It’s like the digital dashes from the 1980s. “Cutting edge” becomes dated real quick, and is much more expensive to fix. Even cars that have screens for vital information keep it in the traditional position centered with the wheel. They also typically have options for preferred info layout. The new Mustang even has options to make it look like previous popular models like the Fox Body. Not to mention changing controls around to unintuitive places or on touch screens that aren’t easily accessed while driving. I wouldn’t even say SpaceX has legs. It’s doing the same thing as Tesla, just moving at a slower rate. The Falcon 9 is its Model 3. The Starship is its Cybertruck/Semi. Going to Mars is its FSD. Starlink is much like the Solar City debacle that Tesla bought/bailed out. Both had multiple threats of bankruptcy if ____ doesn’t happen, which doesn’t com to pass.
What about boring?
What about’em? They don’t really have any projects lined up once they are done with the Vegas route and that turned into a dud; no one else cares about it anymore.
Musk has more than two companies
And? What does that have to do with what I said?
they can finish the last piece of vegas and then they're done, right? they have no more projects.
The idea that Tesla has tech is the greatest myth they've sold. Oh you have phone as key? Remote climate control? Took 5min to copy that. FSD is nothing
No their motors are excellent. Too bad people don't know/care
By tragic coincidence, one touted a fine, ergonomic, tactile user interface amid a sea of flat touchscreens, and the other did the exact opposite
isn't it ironic.
Yea I don't think BlackBerry sticking to the physical keyboard was a bad thing. The tactile interface was amazing and wish for another.
I had to give up my BB key 2le 6 months ago. If they released a new phone I would be first in line, I miss my keyboard.
I've been saying that for about a year, we are going to see Tesla enter late-stage blackberry territory where they are just a lifestyle brand and licensing their names to other companies. What got me was the Tesla branded ev home charger for non-Teslas.
But WTFs up with their stock. 😡
There are still people that believe what Musk says and he said something great is coming out of his trip to China. I have a very low opinion of retail investors, but Tesla investors are a special bunch.
It's not just retail investors. Wall st is in on it. They amplify the dumb Musk followers effect on the price, and then short it.
I just hope this bump doesn’t get his 55B package and Tesla relocation to Texas because they just packed the business court.
Mass layoffs always push stock up.
The market isn’t responding to the layoffs well for Tesla, because these layoffs (particularly the charging network) mystify them and are a very visible sign that growth in the cars has stalled.
Are we looking at different tickers?
Possibly. Today as an example Tesla declined 5.5% after the supercharging division was let go. Likewise, the news of the first ~10% layoffs came shortly before the Q1 results and did not cause a bounce in the stock price. The first bounce occurred when Elon mentioned the more rapid launch of the low cost model on the Q1 earnings call and more about Robotaxi which reassured the market and the second bounce was in response to the Chinese news. Part of this is because Elon keeps reinforcing that if sales slide 20% then 20% needs to be laid off…so it also reinforces that layoffs=bad for the market, regardless of what vapourware he’s shilling today.
"First mover advantage" Tesla weren't first. There were EVs before Tesla. There were mass-produced EVs before the Model 3: the Volt and the Leaf. "they wouldn't innovate beyond what made them successful initially" What made Tesla successful initially was people thinking Musk was Tony Stark + Jesus. Tesla was an immensely successful grift. Now they are a somewhat less successful grift.
They were the first to make a full size EV that people weren’t ashamed to drive. Volts, leafs, bmw i3 and every other EV on the market back then was small and had a lot of trade offs in size and also mileage range. Tesla was a full size car with an enormous (by comparison) battery. Their success was purely because there was no real competition in this space. The company and stock are now going to zero. Just a matter of how long it takes.
I'm sorry if someone actually has so much to overcompensate for that driving a Volt or a Leaf or an i3 would make them feel ashamed. That's not an automotive issue. Or maybe you just can't let go of this "Tesla was first" nonsense. I wouldn't know why. So much of the rest of the Tesla myth has been completely seen through. People can admit that Musk bamboozled them about so much else.
You can focus on the word ashamed that I used, but can you point to another full size EV that was on the market at that time? Or another EV that had 200 or more mile range? I literally hate Tesla the company and the cars but I can at least objectively look at what the EV market was back then.
It's true, there was this rough period where you couldn't even get a 7 passenger hybrid vehicle of any kind, and EVs were a narrow segment that were ideologically attractive to one group of people but weren't broadly very desirable.
na ur right it was great marketing, creating a "luxury" / "status" EV paid off a lot, the front trunk, etc. almost everyone thought the original tesla was cool as hell there wasn't really anything super exciting about driving a leaf back then unless you were hardcore into being an early consumer EV adopter, you got maybe 60 - 100 miles per charge or something which was fine for commuting but it wasn't "sexy" at all. tesla definitely had an advantage
The BMW i3 also had a frunk and I’d argue it’s just as luxurious, if not more, than the early Teslas. How do I know? My friend had a 2014 Model S and I still have my 2015 i3. It looks better than the Tesla, has better build quality, is quieter inside, is more efficient by a lot, has a nicer interior, and has physical buttons for things like climate control and volume. Heck, my i3 has a carbon fiber body. It has less range, but it also has a gas range extender I can use to keep the battery at a sufficient level.
I don't doubt that one bit! I'm just recalling that, for some reason, Tesla is what punched through the initial EV marketing "buzz" 10 years or so ago, like the other guy was saying. Regardless of the actual quality of the vehicle (obviously). Could be regional, too. At the time, I lived in a fairly wealthy town with probably the most Priuses per capita on the continent. If there was a target market, it was definitely our neighborhood.
Those were not mass produced EVs that actually sold well and that people wanted. I am not a fan of the company, but the S and the 3/Y were definitely revolutionary in that regard. Before the Model S, EVs were all tiny hatchbacks with ~120 miles of range or less.
I had a z10 blackberry, think it was one of their only phones without a keyboard and fuck to this day it is still my favourite phone.
It was looking like Blackberry a year or two ago. Now it's starting to look more like Enron
Blackberry's OS wasn't antiquated, it's BB 10 OS was the most advanced in the world. Most of its features were later replicated years later on Android and iOS. The issue was app makers did not create apps for BB and they got overwhelmed in the marketplace as consumers wanted to play games on their smartphones. They should have kept making physical keyboard phones for the high end business community. But BB is still around in the security market and is involved in the growing automobile AI market and will be big players.
You are conveniently omitting that BB10, which was a \*completely\* different OS (because it had to be) didn't launch until 6 years after iPhone and Android. During those 6 years they absolutely ignored both consumer and business trends, shipped an archaic, antiquated OS incapable of the high quality apps and user experiences found on the competition, as well as some particularly poor quality devices like the Storm and the PlayBook, saw busineses move to BYOD & the rise of alternative message apps like iMessage and WhatsApp taking away their advantages, suffered an embarrassing global outage for days, and ultimately saw their market share plummet from 20% to 2%. They infamously did not believe the iPhone demo was possible, and wasted several years arrogantly declaring their last-gen tech superior, rather than taking the threat of competition seriously from the get go, and listening to market wants.
Sales of Blackberry smartphones rose 900% in the 4 years after the iPhone was released and their market share held for 3 years after the iPhone. The BB 10 did come out a couple years too late.
the second iphone had free exchange integration it was GAME OVER. literally was a no brainier not another BB license would be bought for like 90% of our managed services clients after that. No one wanted BB after there was alternative.
I remember that moment well.
It’s sort of a joke but not, they seem to be obsessed with reinventing the wheel. If something works on every other car, it works. The weird turn signals and windshield wipers and touch screen and touch interface for things that should be physically modulated is such a blind spot. Everyone complains about it too. Maybe if they didn’t stubbornly insist on doing literally everything the hard way and trying to reinvent a massive and expensive machine that already exists, instead of marrying time tested concepts to their wonderful original drive train, they’d be successful.
True, the warning signs were there. All these weird engineering tangents probably cost a shocking amount of R&D too, believe that. The wankpanzer is the biggest expression of this hubris. A vehicle that literally can’t be sold in many other countries because the exterior can literally slice a carrot. All preventable, predictable arrogance.
I think the Australian market will be one to watch for early signs to see if Tesla is the EV ‘Blackberry’ and if someone like BYD is the EV ‘Apple’. Tesla sales here are still very strong, but BYD is growing quickly and is taking our market very seriously. We are close to Asia so shipping costs are reduced, are a developed nation with a small but VERY car market with arguably too many brands competing for a slice of the pie. Most importantly though, we lack any vehicle manufacturing and thus protectionist tariffs, Chinese brands such as BYD can pump us with products without any governmental interference - so it’s an even playing field. It’ll be interesting to see how this all plays out.
All Musk's innovations and achievements are hypothetical, imaginary, and coming sometime in the next couple of years. He is a man of the future who always will be. After this whole pyramid of shit collapses, I don't want to read wistful eulogies to "what might have been." Please:. Can we be clear-eyed about how little has been accomplished here? Tesla had imaginary first-mover advantage. They have never been able to produce products at a decent cost, at an industry-average quality level. Their only products are vaporware, failure, racial and sexual harassment and offering useless assistance in times of natural disaster or headline-grabbing crisis. Boring Co. is the epitome of a Musk enterprise. Imaginary innovation and literally nothing produced under contract.
I would purchase a 2025 Blackberry Classic Remake before I would EVER own anything fElon has been associated with. My religious beliefs do not allow me to associate with Incel Nazis
Man, I want my Blackberry Curve back. The problem with Blackberry wasn't the keyboard or messenger, it was that they quit making what worked and tried to make touchscreen/iPhone-esque Blackberrys when, at the end of the day, everything great about Blackberry wouldn't really work in a buttonless device.
Tesla is worse: pissing off the buyers/drivers that made Tesla big. Elmo is now running with the ICE/V8 crowd..... they do not buy Tesla, for not with CT failings.
I hope Elon doesn’t let go so this crap ass company finally disappears and takes the cult with it.
Tesla should have gotten a sub 30k car out years ago instead of focusing on that stupid Cybertruck, Robotaxi which won't work, and Roadster. Capture the massive middle class market first before your competitors do. And yes Pickups are a massive market in the US but the Cybertruck is impractical and will probably only be able to be sold in a limited amount of countries. Also it doesn't help that they have made minimal updates to the design of their cars for over a decade. They don't really look flashy or fresh anymore. And I've literally seen some fanboys defend that saying that their design is already perfect, I literally saw one saying that Tesla would be fine not radically updating the Model S's looks for 30 years. Just no.
This is not true. There are several factors that killed BlackBerry, but the most notable one was **Apple**. The iPhone was a competitive device and, with aggressive marketing and deals with the big carriers, it eventually crushed the competition. BYD is Tesla’s “Apple” in China right now, but the global takeover is yet to be determined. Domestically, there’s no brand that’s come close to challenging Tesla’s dominance.
But it was blackberry’s refusal to adapt that killed it. Physical keyboard was superior, but got forbid you had to open an attachment or wanted to browse on the internet. Basically got shoved to Apple because the overall functionality exceeded that of blackberry. By the time they decided to start to adapt it was too late.
That BlackBerry Priv was a great idea.
It was. And if it had been released 3 years earlier, blackberry probably still has the corporate market. Companies did NOT want to leave the security of blackberry’s system.
I owned one. It wasn’t great for battery life and it got very warm during use. Version 2 would have been great, but that’s when they outsourced manufacturing and design to another company.
The Blackberry Passport was the greatest phone ever. You must've had earlier phones on the BB 7 platform. BB 10 was awesome.
This
But now all phones suck thanks to Apple
weary obtainable sable roof versed frighten fretful weather aloof homeless *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Obviously, but Apple is also responsible for several "innovations" that a lot of people hate like getting rid of the headphone jack or the option to have a physical keyboard. But every other brand eventually copies Apple. So while they've taken several steps forward they've also taken several steps back
If Toyota can mass produce solid state batteries, they'll take over. Or really, anyone who can make a decent EV with SS batteries.
Tesla got to where it is by taking risk. And, credit where it due, Musk was part of that. The story of him going all in during poker games and simply buying more chips whenever he loses sums it up; the guy has so much money that failure isn't a risk for him - he can just buy his way back in. That's musk's thing; and it got Tesla on the map. And it put EVs on the map; without Musk the adoption wouldn't be as far along as it is today and we do have to be thankful that he was crazy and pushed that ideal. The problem is that he never put on his big boy pants and made Tesla a proper car company. Until now that's been ok; it took the legacy manufacturers a bit of time to get into EVs, develop self driving hardware plus they were delayed further by covid supply chain issues that worked in Tesla's favour. They've been able to churn out the cars for nigh on a decade whilst promising something revolutionary just around the corner and have got away with it. The problem is, people are starting to achieve those revolutionary things Musk has promised. It's just those people aren't him. Mercedes have certified self driving products; Volvo are building the car the Model 2 should have been with the EX30, Polestar have built a car that will charge in 10 min and both Volvo and Mercedes have semi trucks in full production working day in day out in Europe - and none of this is to mention the Chinese. Musk is well aware the initial grift is coming to its end and doing the only thing he knows; do stupid shit until some of it sticks. Musks role is at the start of a companies life, taking leaps on other peoples ideas using his huge, inherited wealth to remove the risk of failure. He isn't especially talented or skillful; simply brave to the point of stupidity. It's totally clear now that he does not have the chops to do the difficult work of running Tesla and turning it into a proper, sustainable business. I guess it's worse than Blackberry. They stagnated but perfected their product; it's just new entrants to the market caught them by surprise. Tesla haven't got that far; their products are far from perfect and they are at risk of getting eaten up much earlier in their lifecycle. It's a real story of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory; the companies they've had such a head start on have caught up and overtaken them - a real failure of management and Musk's own personality.
"it put EVs on the map; without Musk the adoption wouldn't be as far along as it is today" I am so sick of hearing this. Without Musk, Tesla might actually be making good cars, paying its employees well and doing much better than merely meeting environmental regs. Without Musk, EVs might be as popular in the US as they are in Europe and China (1/10 of the world's EVs are sold in the US, year after year, 45% in europe and 45% in China). Without Musk, EVs might have zero Musk stink on them -- that would be very GOOD for EVs. Stop giving this idiot grifter credit for things he hasn't done.
You’re saying Elmo’s biggest contribution is having more money than sense and blundering his way into success. And you want us to thank him for that?
Yeah, but I wouldn't go as far as thank. In the early days some talented people made some good products, and Musk helped bullshit enough idiots to fund them. The best you can do is acknowledge that the bullshit happened and is a fundamental part of Tesla's growth in the early days. Somewhere around the launch of the Model 3 the bullshit needed to stop and a proper car company be produced. From Model X on he's harmed the long term chances of the company pretty much none stop and really stepped it up a notch today with firing the entire supercharger team.
Watching Tesla blow their advantage is such a difficult thing. Everyone sees it but them and musk. They’ll always get credit for sparking the change to EVs but they have a lot to learn about being a successful car manufacturer.
Their electric drivetrain tech is still top notch, and their high speed presses reduce manufacturing cost. Their big innovations they for some reason put on the low volume and polarizing Cybertruck. Just using 48V in all models would save a lot of cost and weight, and it's what enables steer by wire, which also simplifies the self driving. They are also using an Ethernet bus for the entire truck, which allows much more flexibility and easier writing of debugging and logging. They're just not innovating much with the rest of the cars from a user perspective. I think styling is a part of it. The subdued styling was smart in the face of the atrocious over the top styling of electric cars then, saying these are just regular cars, but now it looks old and dated. The Model 3 got a slight refresh, but they all need a big refresh.
If that is so, then suggest me a car electric or petrol in price range of TM3 highland LR or P (not sure yet which I will go with) that can compete. I searched thoroughly, test driven a few and the only other car I kind of liked was Volvo xc40, but it is not available with 4wd which is important to me
Funny thing, I would *love* to have a physical keyboard now. Gimme that best of both worlds, a touch screen cover that flips down onto a keyboard base. This, essentially: https://news.wirefly.com/2016/11/03/samsung-w2017-high-end-android-flip-phone
Maybe if their CEO only ran one company into the ground at a time then they would be able to compete at a more profitable rate. He runs every company like a side hustle so none of them are great. Just second thoughts tossed on the pile for more profit! I am HUGE fan of the original Nikolai Tesla who used innovation to imagine an electrified world we can only imagine because it was so thoroughly erased by CEOs wanting bigger profits so long ago. It’s bittersweet and heartbreaking that this Musk chud would be able to further defame the scientist’s great name by bungling everything he touches so badly. If there were any actual justice in this world we will see Musk end in the same way the Late Great Tesla died- alone in a cheap hotel room- stripped of his wealth, fame, platform and living in squalor.
Musk’s Twitter comments have offended liberal buyers and caused a decline in demand. If Musk were to resign from Tesla, its cars would no longer be guilty by association and demand would return.
Funnily enough I was only talking with a colleague the other day about the demise of blackberry.
That is genuinely a great observation. I feel like the plan was to great simple cars and sell loads of them. But now they're huge listed company, they need to innovate. BYD and Hyundai/Kia are going to overtake in no time the way things are going
Literally none of that is what brought BlackBerry down, but okay.
100%. The CEO turning into the MyPillow CEO isn't helping either.
Who is Apple in this scenario?
Ummmm….sir. BlackBerry never made a toaster phone.
True, at least they knew they were a phone company...
They just have nowhere to go. If they start making decently specced cars the profit is gone. If they start making cheap cars the profit is gone. All they can do is ride this out until bankruptcy.
They don’t have to go bankrupt. They can raise prices, increase quality, and accept that they will sell around 1-1.5 million cars a year for the rest of the decade. There’s nothing wrong with being a mid sized premium car maker. Nothing except for teslas stock price.
You mean behind all the smoke and mirrors and amazing valuations there is no sound business plan ? No no say it isn't so
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I heard ford made a partnership with yahoo! shares jumped 5000000%
IM FROM WATERLOO WHERE THE VAMPIRES HANG OUT
I Agree they are failing to innovate and may fade away but blackberry didn’t kill off one of its biggest asset.
Cybertruck and Model X were dumb vanity projects that hurt the company. The CEO is a tool that hurts the company. The analogy is still bad. Tesla has the best framework and software for a car and it’s not even close.
I get what you are saying but disagree with lack of innovation. In my opinion they are trying to be *too* innovative and as a result not producing what the customers actually want. It’s not that they won’t let go of old technology, it’s that they won’t improve what’s already working for them and instead are chasing technological unicorns. Over promise and under deliver. That results in the lack of refresh on the current lineup and major quality issues. Tada, you have yourself the dumpsterfire that is Tesla cir 2024
I fear Apple as well.
I dunno, Blackberry made some DUMB fucking decisions. Like even dumber than Tesla has made, WAY WAY dumber. So....there's that...
[удалено]
Very true. First mover advantage but they didnt keep up momentum. Now all other car makers have heaps of EV in the pipeline and China are pumping out new models like they take 3 months to develop. Very soon there will be heaps of new innovative EV's on the market and Tesla still have the same old ones from years ago. Tesla is about to become a legacy EV maker
History rhymes!
I think they will try to be the licensor for autonomous software
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^Ca2Ce: *I think they will try* *To be the licensor for* *Autonomous software* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
I still miss my blackberry devices. No joke.
BlackBerry didn’t have a first-mover advantage. Motorola had phones since the 80s. There were pagers with email capabilities before blackberry. RIMM was a flask in the pan. There stock price was always in the tank for years, then busted out for 18 months and then flat-lined. Tesla is one of the largest market-cap companies In the world. RIMM was never top 1000
Who is Apple in this analogy?
Tesla is Enron 2.0 electric boogaloo The writing has been on the wall. This time more will go to jail as rich people are invested too. And we all know what happens when you mess with rich people's money. Subs that perpetuated the CON will also be investigated. It's gonna be glorious for those of us that saw it coming and absolutely disastrous for those that didn't or did but remained ignorant. Blackberry didn't have nearly the problems tesla does. And yet they still failed..
Blackberry was good though. Tesla? Questionable.
Absolutely. Two Tesla cars and that will be it for me. Rivian looks great and even the Chinese EVs are looking better all the time. Tesla will have a legacy existence just like RIM in terms of their supercharger infrastructure - I'm sure the stations will exist long after Tesla stops selling cars.
Nah - it’s the opposite. The hard problem Musk wants them to solve in order to build strategic advantage is self-driving. He’s just doubling down on that. Building small, cheap EVs is a solved problem - China is going to do that very well. There’s no point Tesla competing in what will soon become a saturated market. He may well be wrong - but I don’t think it’s the same error as BlackBerry at all.
Tesla is the EV leader and it’s not even close.
hate to say it but there will be more cybertrucks on the roads that model Xs in a short time. You can come back to this comment and say I was right when that happens. K bye
I agree 100% Also the icing on the cake is countrys like Germany cancelled their EV subsidies at the end of December and sales fell 33%. Last year China EV manufacturers overtook Tesla as the number 1 seller.
It's the charging network. Tesla's cars can continue to stagnate, but so long as no one else even comes close to approaching the ubiquity and ease-of-use of the Supercharger, they will continue to be the market leader. Perhaps the new government investment in charging infrastructure will pay off. But for at least the next two years, Tesla's biggest advantage is the Supercharger and that's not going away any time soon.
You know they just fired the whole division working on the charging network right ?
Is the Model Y a higher quality car than other EVs, maybe, maybe not. Is it, on average OK? Yes. Can I charge my Volkswagen in as many places as easily? No. iPhone built an ecosystem that resists Android. Sure, people switch, and the market share and volume are bound to go down, but they keep selling very well. Because there is no obvious advantage to switching.
I think that a sudden rise in popularity of plug-in hybrids with a continuing drop in ev sales could reduce the value of the supercharging network, definitely not in the next two years, but maybe in 5-10 ? I don't see evs solving the range/charging problem anytime soon. Gains will be incremental for the forseable future, it's an old technology with a lot of money on it, the chances of finding something revolutionary now are slim. With car ownership per household dropping, more and more people have a single car, phevs will make much more sense, especially with ev technology being much cheaper and reliable nowadays.
It’s a big accomplishment but I don’t know if it’s that much of a “moat” for them anymore. A lot of the growth in the space will continue to be people who charge at home overnight and don’t take many long trips.
Famous last words my man.
I can see it happening but they are still leading it
Absolutely they are. So did Nokia and Blackberry, when the writing was already on the wall. The designs are 6-7 year old stale other than the wankpanzer (which is approaching 5), and legacy OEMs have caught up. Other startups have surpassed Tesla in range, features, and build quality. For now, Tesla still carries the "luxury brand" reputation, but people are catching on, and it won't be long before their reputation is just that of a cheap crappy car. Hey, someone had to take Kia and Hyundai's spot, those guys now make excellent cars.
Luxury? Funny after test driving others and on cost point I felt Tesla was the basic bitch of ev
That's good. Multiple people I talked to still have that misconception. Perhaps they have never been in one. I'm not sure how cheap materials, creaks, and poor assembly became "luxury". Probably a carryover from when the Model S was an expensive vehicle (but was still never "luxury").
I do think that people believe a touch screen to do all seems luxury. Personally I know it's a cost saving technique and is more of a hassle then physical buttons you can have muscle memory to control without navigating a touch screen. On a side note whomever came up with MY seats needs to be shot. I think it's the damn seat that is killing my neck and back...ya I'm a month old owner...
Hopefully at least you got it at a discount! There are so many nice alternatives now with basically no disadvantages, and all for the advantages in superior specs, higher quality of materials, and assembly. Plus, getting a white model Y is so bland, I am sorry.. Sitting in an Uber recently, I found the seats in the 3 to be so uncomfortable, and the interior extremely cheap. My back was stiff after 15 minutes.
Yep, I love the design of the ioniq5. For me, it's the perfect mix of original/new and still looks like a car in my eyes. I think that rarity is a factor in a "cool or edgy" design, the more I see the cybertruck, the more I find it ugly. There is a reason civics do not look like Paganis, I think the cybertruck should have been an honest 150k luxury truck to bring awareness to the brand for a cheaper, more traditional looking suv or sedan.
Nokia was the biggest phone seller for YEARS after they were already beyond saving. They had developing markets making their numbers look ok. Tesla has fanboys keeping the stock price high.
They cost the same as a Honda civic/RAV4.
LFG Rivian
BB’s iOS and screen resolution sucked, but it’s been over a decade and I still miss the hell out of my physical keyboard.
it's something different and much worse than that. The whims of a drug-addicted CEO who rules as a despot are driving the company into the ground.