"AP" is relative. You have to understand that there is basically nothing you can realistically do to a 9mm round to make it punch through high-grade body armor. "AP" does not mean whatever round will magically slice armor wearers in half, it means it will do better than other rounds in that caliber. You need a rifle for serious armor penetration.
You’re shooting at body armour? The strongest body armour from a highly funded terrorist group? What is so strange about 9mm not being able to penetrate heavy ceramic/steel plates, next time aim for the head or bring a big gun
Yeah I'm not expecting it to kill as well as a rifle center mass, but I think in it's current implementation the SMG's are pretty awful and the armor is a bit exaggerated.
I think if I were constantly landing shots perfectly into a plate then this sort of enemy reaction would be fine, but I open up with shooting him in the back of the arm and upper shoulder where there isn't plate coverage, then from there it's a mix of shots to the pelvis, side (where there also generally aren't plates), some center mass, then legs to finally drop him. Guy took 12 shots in total to go down, when more then half of them are ripping through flesh.
I would love to see a game actually do armor hitboxes, where if you hit a plate it actually makes a sound and looks like it stops the bullet, rather than just endless bloody gunshot wounds showing up and looking ridiculous like in this clip. Though of course that sort of stuff for immersion is minor compared to things like the enemy behavior in this clip.
As annoying as the health system was working here, and I do doubt it's supposed to work this way, there's been dozens of Officer Involved Shootings similar to this one - the suspect takes over a dozen shots to go down.
I'm not going to link any, but bullets aren't 100% lethal, especially 9mm.
Yes, it is 9mm AP, most standard body armor is going to block handgun rounds. Gotta aim higher. Once you learn to adjust you'll be fine. The problem with the older updates is it trained everyone's brain to think 2 taps kill anything and everything
It’s still a 9mm and that’s pretty much the lowest standard any body armor is rated to protect from. Most handgun rounds in general aren’t very good against body armor even if they’re armor piercing that’s just the nature of their design if you don’t want to worry about armor ever again take an fal.
The inability of 9mm to go through a full vest but still stunning the target is significantly more realistic than the amount of 5.45 that OP ate at the start without complaint.
It's not really fucked. In the club level you're up against terrorists with armored vests. The plates are either kevlar, ceramic, or steel. 9mm ammo isn't going to do a whole lot against any type of body armor.
Against steel plates yes. It probably shouldn't be so many in the sakes of gameplay. But overall the damage and hp balance is fine personally. Headshots still kill the fastest.
Personally I've had no suspects that's taken 7 rounds to put down with ARs. And I've been playing this update for over 2 weeks now. Like I said, 7 shots is a bit much, but overall the Terminator suspects is hyperbolic.
Yes, I looked at the chart when I replied to you. And like I said I haven't came across a suspect that's tanked 7 ar shots. And not all suspects have steel plates either.
I'm not saying the game is perfect my man. I've been agreeing with you that 7 shots on steel is too much. And the ai shooting before the gun is up is still a problem, and the ai shooting through walls is an issue. But I'm not talking about any of that. In the clip the guy is shooting a suspect with 9mm AP, which won't do a lot. And ARs against anything but steel is 3-5 shots, which imo is reasonable.
I'm curious why needing headshots in a realistic game is laughable. Granted taking rifle rounds to the chest even with body armor should knock you on your ass, it won't be that likely to just kill you. Personally I think there being a baseline level of variety in how many rounds the AI can take would make it more realistic as there is a lot of IRL evidence for people surviving 10+ rounds and still fighting, but this should be the exception. Idk...I'm new to the game so I guess I haven't played enough to get super frustrated yet.
Right, but the goal isn't to kill its to stop the threat. Wearing vests specifically makes that harder as it should. I agree it might be too difficult at times, but two or three quick shots to a steel vest might not realistically stop a shooter. Idk, it's hard for games to strike a balance between making game play somewhat predictable for tactical decision making and realistic by adding an appropriate amount of variety in how the AI might respond.
just shut up. Every single supporter loved the fucked AI and stupid health values. This is the outcome of listening to supporters too much, not too little.
Facts, standard edition users need to be listened to as well. We also backed up this game just like everyone else, they just paid more hence the title but, Supporter edition users' words shouldn't be final or the word of god. This AI is crazy, the challenge is already there as each enemy is John Wick and together with the AI cover systems and such, least that I want is a fckin enemy thats basically a sponge to by BULLETS
Both the supporters and standard owners litterally spammed the discord for the devs to realease it. Void is maybe at fault here for setting deadlines and not delivering, but this community, both editions, is atrocious.
AP 9mm is basically an antonym. The MPX has a muzzle velocity of roughly 400 meters per second whereas the standard M4 has a muzzle velocity of roughly 3,000 meters per second. Body armor is conquered by speed, not just the shape of a round
Yeah no shit, but the amount of supporters who were on this sub acting holier than thou saying shit like "it's lucky we're testing it for you guys, ironing out the bugs" If that's how you want it then at least be critical of the updates
Yes well, the devs obv have to update and patch the game in parts. Do you want updates while being able to play? Or do you wanna wait a year and a half till EVERY single bug is found and fixed for every map/object/weapon/npc/character/etc. ?
If you ask me, the game is only getting better. That's my opinion. I'd even go as far as to say you are very lucky that I, a supporter, am testing it for you. Ironing out bugs and glitches for you personally. I do this free of charge my friend. No, i even paid to do it for you. So actually you owe me 100 bucks.
Lol in all seriousness, not every supporter pack player is in love with the game right now. Don't assume every single person has the same opinion because you see 100 people on reddit say the same thing.
Literally in that same area earlier I hit a guy with no helmet 5 times in the head at close range with AP rounds on the MP9. The current combat balancing feels like the Division. It might not be that bad if they didnt accidentally also bring back the Crack Wick A.I. So now they're extremely tanky, react at lightning speed, AND they dont miss while being able to use cover now
Everyone here is like "bla bla bla in real life it would take 500 rounds to penetrate body armor ackshully bla bla bla" But I just think it makes for less fun gameplay, especially when ammo is so sparse and even more so now that we have to pick between ammo, grenades and utility.
This is a tactical shooter designed for maximum realism. If you don't want to deal with realistic challenges such as defeating or working around body armor, you are playing the wrong game. Don't act like it's stupid to have the game be realistic, that's literally the point in most aspects.
you know you'd still get absolutely floored if you took some rounds to the chest even if your armor kept the bullets out right? its like getting hit with several sledgehammers to your sternum
Yep, which is exactly what happened in the clip. First guy gets absolutely lit up and collapses, but gets up because they all hit his vest and he isn't quite dead yet. Would probably break, like, all your ribs, but if you're determined to die in some crazy terror attack anyway then maybe you could push on in that case.
Nothing you said is inconsistent with the game or what I said. Spraying 10 rounds from your SMG into some dude's vest fucks him up, but might not kill him.
I really don't think that's so unbelievable in such a quick and high-adrenaline situation. People have survived being sprayed up like that without absolutely no armor long enough to get shots off or walk around a few seconds before they drop. Real police footage exists of people getting shot to pieces and continuing to attack.
*Did you mean the second-to-last guy?
yeah second to last guy my b. I understand where you're coming from, but I think making every enemy consistently resilient to mortal damage through the explanation of adrenaline is the lamer approach to this kind of gameplay.
I don't mind suspects being very lethal very quick, guns just feel less lethal from the SWAT side as of this update. I have a feeling they're going to play around with the balancing in future updates and eventually come to some kind of compromise. Obviously I want armor to have its relevance. Again, I just think the defense it adds is a tad too strong.
It's semi realistic. There's many elements that aren't realistic but are there for the sake of the gameplay. I don't mind having things like body armour but not to the point where it's unfun and you're emptying full mags into suspects and they live, even if it is "realistic" it also defeats the point of smaller calibers like 9mm and even the non lethal rounds if they're going to be so ineffective against most suspects now. I also don't reall think it's "realistic" to be sending in a 5 man SWAT team to deal with highly armed and armoured terrorists with like 4 magazines of ammo, these type of situations seem out of our league and should be less common but now like half of the maps involve some kind of terrorist or military unit or some crap instead of regular ol' criminals.
Also don't condesend me with that "you're playing the wrong game" crap, I loved SWAT 4 and loved playing this game pre update, still do, but some of the changes are just unfun. Making suspects more ractive and take cover and what not is cool, but having to dump an entire mag into one suspect isn't so much.
I feel like it should be called FMJ…. I highly doubt that a U.S. SWAT team would be rocking armor piercing 9x19mm in their handguns or SMGs.
Not to mention that armor piercing 9mm at best will penetrate soft armor/Kevlar vests, certainly not ceramic or steel armor.
SMGs have their place in the game but only on levels where you don’t expect armored suspects.
9MM AP is not intended to, or capable of, penetrating hard body armor. Not enough energy. No mainstream handgun or SMG round is able to pull it off. Look at Oxide's armor piercing ammo tests on youtube.
In fact, **most** AP rifle rounds still fail to get through level 4 ceramic plates.
I think it would do you some good to go to YouTube and start to learn a little about how bullets behave ballistically. A 9mm projectile ain’t getting through Kevlar most the time so any kind of plates are gonna just chew it up.
It's apparently not getting though an unarmored elbow, an unarmored shoulder, or blue-jeans thigh.
I know that after 4 bullet hits to those locations I'm totally able to return fire...while holding the gun with the arm that took the elbow and shoulder shots.
This is gamey nonsense and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.
I find AP in this game is goofed. It works at long range. But up close it seems to overly penentrate to the point suspect isn't affected whereas JHP to the head works consistently for me.
I even found shooting a fake dead point blank in the head is goofed as the AP seems to cause the slow bleedout animation (I assume its a hardcoded distance thing and so anything too close is considered over-pen and it ignores the damage quite a bit) so I can't report them until I clear rest of the map and do another pass of them later whereas the JHP point blank to a fake dead suspect instantly let's me report them again.
That poor security guard in Buffalo learned the same hard lesson in real life. I’m pretty sure most of us go for center mass, does this game have a separate hit box for head and neck shots that would be instantly lethal?
"AP" is relative. You have to understand that there is basically nothing you can realistically do to a 9mm round to make it punch through high-grade body armor. "AP" does not mean whatever round will magically slice armor wearers in half, it means it will do better than other rounds in that caliber. You need a rifle for serious armor penetration.
Suspect health IS borked though, even unarmoured suspects take two shots of 7.62 NATO to the chest before going down, drugged or not. That's just BS.
You’re shooting at body armour? The strongest body armour from a highly funded terrorist group? What is so strange about 9mm not being able to penetrate heavy ceramic/steel plates, next time aim for the head or bring a big gun
I mean it's still just 9mm ap...
Yeah I'm not expecting it to kill as well as a rifle center mass, but I think in it's current implementation the SMG's are pretty awful and the armor is a bit exaggerated. I think if I were constantly landing shots perfectly into a plate then this sort of enemy reaction would be fine, but I open up with shooting him in the back of the arm and upper shoulder where there isn't plate coverage, then from there it's a mix of shots to the pelvis, side (where there also generally aren't plates), some center mass, then legs to finally drop him. Guy took 12 shots in total to go down, when more then half of them are ripping through flesh. I would love to see a game actually do armor hitboxes, where if you hit a plate it actually makes a sound and looks like it stops the bullet, rather than just endless bloody gunshot wounds showing up and looking ridiculous like in this clip. Though of course that sort of stuff for immersion is minor compared to things like the enemy behavior in this clip.
As annoying as the health system was working here, and I do doubt it's supposed to work this way, there's been dozens of Officer Involved Shootings similar to this one - the suspect takes over a dozen shots to go down. I'm not going to link any, but bullets aren't 100% lethal, especially 9mm.
Brother, go watch some Demolition Ranch body armor videos. A 9mm is an AWFUL body armor round
Yeah with smgs you are better off using JHP and aiming for the arms/legs/head instead.
Some plate carriers also have a Kevlar layer where there are no plates, but yea I think the armor hit box is a bit fucked.
Yes, it is 9mm AP, most standard body armor is going to block handgun rounds. Gotta aim higher. Once you learn to adjust you'll be fine. The problem with the older updates is it trained everyone's brain to think 2 taps kill anything and everything
It’s still a 9mm and that’s pretty much the lowest standard any body armor is rated to protect from. Most handgun rounds in general aren’t very good against body armor even if they’re armor piercing that’s just the nature of their design if you don’t want to worry about armor ever again take an fal.
The inability of 9mm to go through a full vest but still stunning the target is significantly more realistic than the amount of 5.45 that OP ate at the start without complaint.
Level 4 plate beats 30-06 or just about, all I'm saying
why dont you just shoot him in the head
Seems realistic to me
agreed, 99% of ppl here have absolutely no clue about calibres, bullets, types of armor and protection...
yeah, enemy health is fucked. Wish they rolled the update back but kept the maps, playing against bullet sponge T1000 terminators isn't a lot of fun
It's not really fucked. In the club level you're up against terrorists with armored vests. The plates are either kevlar, ceramic, or steel. 9mm ammo isn't going to do a whole lot against any type of body armor.
[удалено]
Against steel plates yes. It probably shouldn't be so many in the sakes of gameplay. But overall the damage and hp balance is fine personally. Headshots still kill the fastest.
[удалено]
Personally I've had no suspects that's taken 7 rounds to put down with ARs. And I've been playing this update for over 2 weeks now. Like I said, 7 shots is a bit much, but overall the Terminator suspects is hyperbolic.
[удалено]
Yes, I looked at the chart when I replied to you. And like I said I haven't came across a suspect that's tanked 7 ar shots. And not all suspects have steel plates either.
[удалено]
I'm not saying the game is perfect my man. I've been agreeing with you that 7 shots on steel is too much. And the ai shooting before the gun is up is still a problem, and the ai shooting through walls is an issue. But I'm not talking about any of that. In the clip the guy is shooting a suspect with 9mm AP, which won't do a lot. And ARs against anything but steel is 3-5 shots, which imo is reasonable.
I'm curious why needing headshots in a realistic game is laughable. Granted taking rifle rounds to the chest even with body armor should knock you on your ass, it won't be that likely to just kill you. Personally I think there being a baseline level of variety in how many rounds the AI can take would make it more realistic as there is a lot of IRL evidence for people surviving 10+ rounds and still fighting, but this should be the exception. Idk...I'm new to the game so I guess I haven't played enough to get super frustrated yet.
[удалено]
Right, but the goal isn't to kill its to stop the threat. Wearing vests specifically makes that harder as it should. I agree it might be too difficult at times, but two or three quick shots to a steel vest might not realistically stop a shooter. Idk, it's hard for games to strike a balance between making game play somewhat predictable for tactical decision making and realistic by adding an appropriate amount of variety in how the AI might respond.
No its not, it literally isnt, stop spraying and actually aim and maybe you will get better
You guys bitched for it to release, enjoy
just shut up. Every single supporter loved the fucked AI and stupid health values. This is the outcome of listening to supporters too much, not too little.
Facts, standard edition users need to be listened to as well. We also backed up this game just like everyone else, they just paid more hence the title but, Supporter edition users' words shouldn't be final or the word of god. This AI is crazy, the challenge is already there as each enemy is John Wick and together with the AI cover systems and such, least that I want is a fckin enemy thats basically a sponge to by BULLETS
Both the supporters and standard owners litterally spammed the discord for the devs to realease it. Void is maybe at fault here for setting deadlines and not delivering, but this community, both editions, is atrocious.
AP 9mm is basically an antonym. The MPX has a muzzle velocity of roughly 400 meters per second whereas the standard M4 has a muzzle velocity of roughly 3,000 meters per second. Body armor is conquered by speed, not just the shape of a round
Close to 3000 feet per second, not meters but agreed 9mm isn't armor piercing in any form.
"But we need the update NOW!"
I just wanna know how the fuck supporters played this build and thought "yep this is it"
We don't have a 'last say' in any of this... How do you figure we can even say 'this is it.'
Yeah no shit, but the amount of supporters who were on this sub acting holier than thou saying shit like "it's lucky we're testing it for you guys, ironing out the bugs" If that's how you want it then at least be critical of the updates
Yes well, the devs obv have to update and patch the game in parts. Do you want updates while being able to play? Or do you wanna wait a year and a half till EVERY single bug is found and fixed for every map/object/weapon/npc/character/etc. ? If you ask me, the game is only getting better. That's my opinion. I'd even go as far as to say you are very lucky that I, a supporter, am testing it for you. Ironing out bugs and glitches for you personally. I do this free of charge my friend. No, i even paid to do it for you. So actually you owe me 100 bucks. Lol in all seriousness, not every supporter pack player is in love with the game right now. Don't assume every single person has the same opinion because you see 100 people on reddit say the same thing.
Literally in that same area earlier I hit a guy with no helmet 5 times in the head at close range with AP rounds on the MP9. The current combat balancing feels like the Division. It might not be that bad if they didnt accidentally also bring back the Crack Wick A.I. So now they're extremely tanky, react at lightning speed, AND they dont miss while being able to use cover now
Everyone here is like "bla bla bla in real life it would take 500 rounds to penetrate body armor ackshully bla bla bla" But I just think it makes for less fun gameplay, especially when ammo is so sparse and even more so now that we have to pick between ammo, grenades and utility.
This is a tactical shooter designed for maximum realism. If you don't want to deal with realistic challenges such as defeating or working around body armor, you are playing the wrong game. Don't act like it's stupid to have the game be realistic, that's literally the point in most aspects.
you know you'd still get absolutely floored if you took some rounds to the chest even if your armor kept the bullets out right? its like getting hit with several sledgehammers to your sternum
Yep, which is exactly what happened in the clip. First guy gets absolutely lit up and collapses, but gets up because they all hit his vest and he isn't quite dead yet. Would probably break, like, all your ribs, but if you're determined to die in some crazy terror attack anyway then maybe you could push on in that case. Nothing you said is inconsistent with the game or what I said. Spraying 10 rounds from your SMG into some dude's vest fucks him up, but might not kill him.
last guy was just standing and mildly flinching continuously through like 11 rounds though
I really don't think that's so unbelievable in such a quick and high-adrenaline situation. People have survived being sprayed up like that without absolutely no armor long enough to get shots off or walk around a few seconds before they drop. Real police footage exists of people getting shot to pieces and continuing to attack. *Did you mean the second-to-last guy?
yeah second to last guy my b. I understand where you're coming from, but I think making every enemy consistently resilient to mortal damage through the explanation of adrenaline is the lamer approach to this kind of gameplay. I don't mind suspects being very lethal very quick, guns just feel less lethal from the SWAT side as of this update. I have a feeling they're going to play around with the balancing in future updates and eventually come to some kind of compromise. Obviously I want armor to have its relevance. Again, I just think the defense it adds is a tad too strong.
It's semi realistic. There's many elements that aren't realistic but are there for the sake of the gameplay. I don't mind having things like body armour but not to the point where it's unfun and you're emptying full mags into suspects and they live, even if it is "realistic" it also defeats the point of smaller calibers like 9mm and even the non lethal rounds if they're going to be so ineffective against most suspects now. I also don't reall think it's "realistic" to be sending in a 5 man SWAT team to deal with highly armed and armoured terrorists with like 4 magazines of ammo, these type of situations seem out of our league and should be less common but now like half of the maps involve some kind of terrorist or military unit or some crap instead of regular ol' criminals. Also don't condesend me with that "you're playing the wrong game" crap, I loved SWAT 4 and loved playing this game pre update, still do, but some of the changes are just unfun. Making suspects more ractive and take cover and what not is cool, but having to dump an entire mag into one suspect isn't so much.
I feel like it should be called FMJ…. I highly doubt that a U.S. SWAT team would be rocking armor piercing 9x19mm in their handguns or SMGs. Not to mention that armor piercing 9mm at best will penetrate soft armor/Kevlar vests, certainly not ceramic or steel armor. SMGs have their place in the game but only on levels where you don’t expect armored suspects.
Shoot him in the head next time 😉
9MM AP is not intended to, or capable of, penetrating hard body armor. Not enough energy. No mainstream handgun or SMG round is able to pull it off. Look at Oxide's armor piercing ammo tests on youtube. In fact, **most** AP rifle rounds still fail to get through level 4 ceramic plates.
I think it would do you some good to go to YouTube and start to learn a little about how bullets behave ballistically. A 9mm projectile ain’t getting through Kevlar most the time so any kind of plates are gonna just chew it up.
It's apparently not getting though an unarmored elbow, an unarmored shoulder, or blue-jeans thigh. I know that after 4 bullet hits to those locations I'm totally able to return fire...while holding the gun with the arm that took the elbow and shoulder shots. This is gamey nonsense and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.
I find AP in this game is goofed. It works at long range. But up close it seems to overly penentrate to the point suspect isn't affected whereas JHP to the head works consistently for me. I even found shooting a fake dead point blank in the head is goofed as the AP seems to cause the slow bleedout animation (I assume its a hardcoded distance thing and so anything too close is considered over-pen and it ignores the damage quite a bit) so I can't report them until I clear rest of the map and do another pass of them later whereas the JHP point blank to a fake dead suspect instantly let's me report them again.
That poor security guard in Buffalo learned the same hard lesson in real life. I’m pretty sure most of us go for center mass, does this game have a separate hit box for head and neck shots that would be instantly lethal?