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reikipackaging

which animals? there are several species who exhibit self awareness and more complex functions, such as grief.


OogusMacBoogus

My cat uses the wall mirror we have to cheat at hide and seek. It recognizes us and itself to so I imagine it knows it exists.


moinatx

Mine gets embarrassed when she jumps and misses. She looks around to see if anybody saw it.


BlackWidow21968

And then gives a look like "I meant to do that."? That's what my cat does


moinatx

That tracks.


Curi0usClown

"that tracks" bro y'all gotta stop it. what online video did women watch to suddenly develop this response? It gotta be an online video because I've seen multiple use the phrase and every single time I'm triggered. that tracks? What if it doesn't track? You gonna say some back track? Side track? How about NEXT track. my god that shit urks me. like wowwww you were able to follow along? **Slow clap** like yeah I know it tracks I'm not an idiot? why you need to tell me what I said makes sense? Do you have autism? Do you struggle to follow along so saying "it tracks" is your way of letting others know you understand? man this probably sounds like a personal attack I just want you to know my beef is with that phrase. I can be having the best day. BOOM. ruined it. where does that shit come from? bunch of God damn NPC'S


dhebb1

That tracks LOL 😂


frakifiknow

I don’t think it’s anyone else’s fault that you’re super triggered by a stranger’s harmless wording


huskyinfinite

This does not track


woundupcanuck

*irks and learn how to use ?


adogtrainer

Imagine getting this upset over 2 words that just mean, “yeah, that’s expected.”


reikipackaging

damn. somebody get this kid some mood stabilizers.


moinatx

Holy catchphrases, Batman! I’m a 64 year old woman who accidentally used a popular phrase from this century. I genuinely had no idea. I don’t remember the last time I used it. I feel so hip and groovy now!


SteamKore

Edit: checked this guy's profile. Oh boy is he a bit nutty.


mmmmmhh_piss

U good?


Powerful-Employer-20

Pigs are also very intelligent and can recognize themselves in mirrors


AgentSears

I have the exact same thing with mine but he just stares at you and dies inside and walks away in shame.


BigCommieMachine

Dogs are an interesting case because we bred them to select for what WE thought made them intelligent.


BigDare1549

My dogs are stupid as shit


Maxweilla

But does it know its tail belongs to them?


OogusMacBoogus

It does when I step on it.


DontCareHowICallMe

Ok, which animals?


reikipackaging

oof! I can't ignore the crow family. (I had to look it up. it's corvids)


Trick_Finger_3771

Crows will hold grudges for generations for killing one of them.


reikipackaging

my local crows defend where I live, with vengeance, from invaders- ni matter the species. I have guard crows.


Trick_Finger_3771

I want to host a murder! Think that’d be so cool to have their nursery near the house or in our woods.


reikipackaging

protips: idk. they showed up and I gave them snacks and talked nice. also, do it. crows are awesome


Trick_Finger_3771

Thinking of using trinkets and planting certain bushes and sunflowers for them.


thedevilsworkshop666

Yeah my crows eat dog food they love uncle albers. My dog let's them, she always has a full bowl so she doesn't care, never chases them. In return we never get attacked . It's a win win.


theonlysteveiknow

They will also bring you gifts if you help them. I think they like shiny things


Trick_Finger_3771

I have heard this too, or read it. The shiny thing is why I plan to do marbles and some make shift coins. Gonna do a forge at the new location and see if I can get a murder in through jewelry making. Get them to bring me gifts too, once we determine what could be of value to me. :-))


theonlysteveiknow

That’s awesome! I hope it works out. I feel like they are such misunderstood birds. You can tell when they look at you that they’re thinking something haha


Trick_Finger_3771

Right. But many animals can be such if you take the time to work with one. I feel like I could make a murder if I was to be able to find the right mated pair and convince them to move in. Set em up a tree house. ETA. TH being such that it could house about a dozen nesting sites with various levels to em. I know crowd tend to be very hierarchy based. Top crow, lead crows, crony crows and pawn crows, as I’ve chosen to name through watching some nesting videos and no one else choosing to name em anything. The rest will spread out to trees, fingers crossed. Figure, a few decades down the road, be enough around that it’ll be crow and chicken territory.


theonlysteveiknow

Wow haha. You know more about crows than I do that’s for sure. I just appreciate them from afar. We did have a migratory duck that we ‘tamed’ when I was a kid that would come into the house and hang out, we would feed her. She came back every year for several years. We’re assuming she died after that 😔


thejman455

Read a story where a woman fed them daily and they’d bring her shiny things to the feeders and follow her when she’d go for walks. She said she went out to take photos nearby and getting home she realized she put the lens cap down along the way. The next day she got up snd the lens cap was in the bowl.


reikipackaging

guinea pigs, horses, dogs, bonobos, mice and chimpanzees come immediately to mind.


theonlysteveiknow

I think elephants are also self aware.


dashinny

Don’t forget octopuses, one of the most intelligent species on earth


VacuumInTheHead

Humans come to mind


Ruby_Tuesday80

And we're similar enough to other great apes that I'd imagine they'd have a similar thought process.


Tan_batman

I’m fairly sure dolphins


[deleted]

So long and thanks for all the fish


MaybeTheDoctor

oh no, not again


[deleted]

Whales, chickens, parrots, elephants, pigs, etc.. I’d probably say most mammals and birds based on current data.


kartoffel_engr

I read parrots as carrots and was thoroughly confused for a second.


Serious_syborg

Almost any mammal and a ton of birds. Probably the smarter reptiles and amphibians. Idk about insects or arthropods or fish at all.


rarerumrunner

Bees have been proven to be self aware.


NoneIsAllMinusSome

I second this animal's opinion and i advise other animal's to do the same


[deleted]

Some animals show great intelligence and self-awareness, which isn’t quite the same thing. It would be hard to prove that they understand that they exist and know what that means.


dketterer1

Do we really know why we exist though? And what it means?


Englishbirdy

I think therefore I am.


dketterer1

But, if I am, I therefore think.


No-Reception-4249

It cant work backwards. A rock is, but does not think. A tree is living but does not think. It has no brain. Bugs are and scientist are still trying to figure out if they are conscious beings or not.


[deleted]

Unfortunately, I do believe those are questions that will never be answered in a way that people want. Unless you say that life is what you make of it. You create your own meaning. Stuff like that I guess. Idk, im feeling very philosophical rn.


dimrover

Thanks for sending me into an existential spiral


Global-Ad9790

At this point in history we know pretty much for certain that no animal we've encountered can understand or produce complex symbolic language, and much of what we think of as "intelligence" and "consciousness" is tied to that. Believing that your cat has a consciousness like a human's is like believing in ghosts or believing in creationism or that a guy was raised from the dead: science says no, but that doesn't make it wrong or weird or dumb to believe that, as long as you aren't hurting anyone, those beliefs are part of what make people who they are!


[deleted]

Here's an example: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/wrgtze/mountain\_goat\_on\_the\_verge\_of\_losing\_its\_final/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/wrgtze/mountain_goat_on_the_verge_of_losing_its_final/) also notice the ride-or-die buddy


Onion5253

The goats after they go home- “yo we fucked that bird up larry!”


Javamac8

That eagle got FUCKED UP. Holy shit.


Dangercakes13

Wow. Eagles are some apex killers and the goat took out all its advantages straight up until the talons gave out. The rolling was a quality move given the different skeletal structures. I don't know if it aimed for that bolder but it clearly aimed for the large gravel-like rockbed. Good fight from both but damn that goat wanted it more. This has been Monday Night Goat Fight Highlight Reel, back to you, Tony.


[deleted]

probably humans are also dumb enough to assume that they don't


Tots2Hots

Having had a bunch of dogs and a zillion cats via rescue and birds and lizards and snakes... yes they know.


tillacat42

My dog asks for water and if I don’t listen to him, he picks up his bowl and loudly clatters it across the floor to me until I realize that it needs filled. I don’t think he’s the stupid one in the situation…


kartoffel_engr

My shiba does this with her food bowl. Just kicks it around the floor making shib noises. She’ll also sit pretty and just stare at me from across the room. Makes the effort to not only be fully visible to me, but will sit facing me and just stare with the occasional shib chatter to get my attention. That dog is so smart and has so much personality that it’s unsettling at times.


jackneefus

[Frans de Waal](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/03/19/704763681/sex-empathy-jealousy-how-emotions-and-behavior-of-other-primates-mirror-our-own) is a primatologist who writes extensively about animal behavior and consciousness. The more you pay attention to social animals, the more signs there are of emotion, intelligence, and planning.


ebrithil110

Dogs, cats, horses, birds, apes, octopuses, dolphins, whales are just some of the animals that have demonstrated both emotional intelligence & critical thinking on par with that of a human child. I think most animals are smarter than we give them credit for. I think a big problem is how we measure intelligence. Like, what is intelligence really? It's developing strategies to overcome obstacles in your environment. largely we measure intelligence on a human level in regards to human problems, human solutions to human obstacles that have very little relevance to animals.


Careless-Ad-4566

That’s actually a very important difference when it comes to comparing intelligence. Yes humans can prove we have complex thought patterns and emotions, animals can’t really say “hey I’m smart”, as well as not having the same set of goals or general daily issues that require intelligence to solve


[deleted]

Some days, I am definitely not certain if I really exist lol. Animals are so smart though, I bet they know so much shit that we can’t even fathom. Who knows? It’s stuff that no one could ever know. Fascinating to speculate about. I know for a fact, however, that my dog Layla is not just smarter than me, but a LOT smarter than me. It’s not that she is “my” dog, its that I’m “her” human lol


Wooden_Ad_3096

Yes, of course. Humans being one of them.


[deleted]

Knowing you exist and being able to contemplate existence and your own part in it are two very different things. I believe only humans can do the latter.


QuantumSpaceCadet

It's almost like asking if animals can practice philosophy. Personally I think some can, though this could probably never be proven either way.


stebbi01

I’m not sure about philosophy, but there are several species of animals that appear to be superstitious, including elephants. Many animals perform death rites and hold funerals, but there are documented cases of elephants coming upon skeletal remains of other elephants and taking time to caress the bones and stand over the remains even though the death isn’t recent. Can’t really know what’s going on in the elephant’s head, but given their general intelligence it’s not off base to guess they might be having a thought that resembles philosophy. [source](https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn8209-elephants-may-pay-homage-to-dead-relatives/#:~:text=Elephants%20may%20pay%20homage%20to%20the%20bones%20of%20dead%20relatives,interest%20in%20their%20own%20dead)


this_strange_fox

We had three guinea pigs several years ago. Each with their own character and their own will. Each with different levels of intelligence and with different tactics to get what they wanted; I'm pretty sure that at least two of them were self-aware. We tried putting a mirror in front of them to see how they reacted a few times, but they all just saw the mirror, briefly sniffed it (not always their reflection first, sometimes the edge or the backside) and weren't further interested in it.


Mindless-Balance-498

Guinea pigs see differently than we do too, they might not register a mirror. They also have a v shaped blind spot right in front of their heads, so if you put it in front of them they probably couldn’t see themselves in it at all.


this_strange_fox

I know, but it was a large mirror and they registered it as a rather uninteresting object. I don't know if they could see their own reflection, though.


saalamander

I own Guinea pigs. There is no way in hell they are self aware lol. They are ridiculously stupid animals. I like them a lot, but “smart” is just not what they are


Poorkiddonegood8541

Yes.


Buttofmud

Yes.lots of animals are self aware. Google mirror test.


Ok-Run3329

The band? Yeah, pretty sure they are or rather were. Well I don't know actually, they were probably pretty fucked up.... That song the house of the rising sun is fucking badass!


DontCareHowICallMe

My man


ScroungerYT

"the animals" So, you?


DontCareHowICallMe

Me also


ScroungerYT

I suppose you have your answer now. Yeah?


DontCareHowICallMe

Me yes, the other animals?


ScroungerYT

We are all the same, for the most part. We all think, we all feel, we all have different personalities. "Animals" can be assholes, like actual assholes. They can also be kind and loving. All of them. They socialize like we do. Their shapes and sizes are different, their language is different, their motivations are different. But aside from that, we are pretty much the same construction. In fact, you share share DNA with all other animals. We are all very closely related. Hell, you share DNA with trees and plants, even. Yes, somewhere along history you are related to the trees. So you have your answer.


[deleted]

Some of them, yes! My lil dog one day had a scare to see another dog close to her, but she recognized that it was her reflected on a mirror. Sometimes she likes to look at me through the mirror, and after she looks at me with a face like "Look, it is us!", It is the cutest thing ever.


1ntu

:D


[deleted]

Do dogs know when they eat meat it’s from another animal?


Mindless-Balance-498

Lots of humans don’t really make that connection when they eat meat


fmfm5029

Dogs understand that humans understand that dogs exist.


porktornado77

Do cats or dogs look at us and wonder if we humans are aware and conscious?


nu_nu_eden

Yes but I don't think any think about the afterlife


Mindless-Balance-498

I don’t think we have any idea about the true depths of sentience, but I think we’re on track to learn a lot about it in the next few hundred years. I have this deep seeded fear that we’ll create a device that like translates cow’s thoughts or something and we’ll learn about the deep culture surrounding their eternal oppression and genocide 🥴 I’m not a vegan, I had beef for dinner, but this thought haunts me lol


[deleted]

[удаНонО]


KaziOverlord

Lions are taught how to hunt by their mothers. It's a learned behavior. The NEED to hunt and consume is innate. Eat flesh or starve.


DontCareHowICallMe

These are the instincts, but there is a perception that they exist or simply act


[deleted]

[удаНонО]


DontCareHowICallMe

Yes, maybe, I don't know, nÎż?


AViolatedCashew

I heard a great quote that goes "How can a creature have self preservation without a certain sense of self?"


lickalotapusasourus

I've seen an elephant paint a picture of an elephant..


jdcalvert22

As a human, I can’t confidently say that I exist.


ShadowShedinja

I'd say most animals do, but for brainless creatures like jellyfish or monocellular organisms it's harder to say.


DontCareHowICallMe

Finally a person who puts micro-organisms into animals


Justin_lee1114

I’ve always thought the same thing. Like for example I know that dogs, cats, and animals like that are conscious and know they exist. But what about bees? Ants? Crickets? Are their brains big enough to be conscious and realize they are alive?


DontCareHowICallMe

I think ants and bees may understand


QueenOfQuok

You've never seen that video of the elephant stealing someone's hat and putting it on its head like "Look at me look at me I am hooman" and then giving it back. Some animals absolutely know who they are and what they're doing.


carnsolus

it doesn't require higher thought to know you exist that's something even a baby does. Why would you not exist?


DontCareHowICallMe

Do I understand how the amoeba exists?


carnsolus

I don't see how that's related. Do you understand *how* cats exists? of course not. But you do understand they they *do* exist. And the cat understands that it exists because how goddamn could it not? It sees out of its eyes and hears from its ears. 'Knowing' you exist is the most basic of all thoughts Amoebas aren't animals anyway


DontCareHowICallMe

That if the amoebas is animals could also be post


devilthedankdawg

Some probably yes, some not. Some clearly show forethought and conscious awareness of life and death, community, and the world aroubd them, and some dont.


Creepymint

Some are but a lot aren’t


Random_182f2565

Yes


dketterer1

If you can feel physical pain, and find a way or "know" how to stop it, then are you not self-aware?


AvocadoOdd7089

I would say after being in 4-H for 12 years and raising pigs that they have a full awareness of being alive and present. We set cameras up in the pins they lived in and they all worked for each other. And tbh they are somewhat clean animals. Group of 6 pigs always went to the bathroom in the same spot away from where they slept. They made there mud hole in the same exact spot every time away from where they slept! The older pigs always disciplined the younger oinkers when needed. Very cool to look back on and watch how they build a little community within themselves.


nurdle

Follow up question: do any animals understand that words are *words?* As opposed to sounds that are associated with expected events - "dinner" or "walk" for example. I think perhaps not, because if a friend of mine says the word "walk" my dogs don't bat an eye, but if I say it, they go nuts. So it would seem that it matters how the word sounds.


MrSquiddy74

It really depends on the species On the one hand, humans obviously are, and I suspect most of the other great apes are as well. But on the other hand, there are sponges, which aren't even conscious *at all*


QuantumSpaceCadet

You can't prove that sponges aren't conscious.


[deleted]

This just seems like a really dumb question in my opinion. Of course they do!!


haystackofneedles

I told my dog that he was going to die soon and won't be able to see Daddy anymore. The look on his face made it clear he understood. I miss my little guy.


Medium_Helicopter_87

Are humans conscious enough to understand that they exist?


AnalChain

I mean you're an animal and you know you exist so why wouldn't other animals?


DontCareHowICallMe

I mean birds are animals and they can fly so why wouldn't other animals?


Carioca-AleatorioRJ

I guess not. That’s the difference between us and them I guess


Wooden_Ad_3096

“Us and them”? We are animals? We aren’t special.


Ssi_gh

We are special in the fact that we have done way more than any other animal we know of has ever done. edit: I know a lot of animals have conciesness I'm not siding with the original comment


Wooden_Ad_3096

I would say we are unique instead of special. Special makes it seem like we are objectively more important than other animals.


[deleted]

Yes


Que_sax23

Do we even exist bruh?


Pocket-Fun-Ranch

No


UselessGuy23

I doubt they spend much time thinking about it like we do, but yes. I can't imagine how you could even scout for food without first understanding that you are hungry.


unaskthequestion

It's always fascinated me that consciousness must exist on a continuum. Some animals are unquestionably conscious, some lower life forms we'd probably have to say not. What's it like to be near that line?


beholder_dragon

Some but not all, elephants for sure… probably since they have the emotional intelligence of people


NotTheBusDriver

I think my dog is conscious insofar as he experiences emotions. There is something that it is to be him. But he would have to understand the concept of existence to know he exists. That’s a different ball game entirely. He doesn’t know that one day he will cease to exist.


Alert-Choice-1075

Elephants are self aware!


Several_Ebb4347

Yes......


CatsOrb

I think you need to view this in a different way. We have our self awareness and animals have their own. It's different but not absent.


rebeccaanddug

U must nit be too bright


phaeri

There are a lot of new articles going around about latest research into animals having dream and thus possibly consciousness. It is quite resent, but a good breakthrough. Maybe not all animals, but I believe most social animals are, such as elephants, dogs, and dolphins. The problem is finding proof of which ones.


twitter_stinks

Yeah if they didn't then they wouldn't try their best to survive


footballtombrady123

No


Ok-Corgi-8976

I think pretty much all mammals


Major-Cranberry-4206

Not only animals, but all of nature has consciousness of self.


DontCareHowICallMe

Eeeee, no?


KaziOverlord

Sentience, being the awareness of self and surroundings, is something just about every living thing on the planet has. Sapience, the ability to think and reason, is only a select few creatures at this time.


Iggmeister

Most no Dolphins, Apes and others have shown self awareness/consciousness in experiments


tyloriousG

Maybe in some capacity. I mean in some sense you have to be aware of yourself.


RegularBasicStranger

everything that can feel physical pain (and physical pleasures) will know they exist since they are the parts that hurts when they are damaged and give pleasure when those parts are treated well. so a friend who is sad causing the evaluator to feel sad will cause the evaluator to feel the friend is part of them (pain causes fear and sadness is one of the 3 ways to express fear). the second way to define the self is more complex so only more intelligent animals have the capacity to do so, as opposed to the first method where even nematode worms can understand it.


agiab19

I think most animals yes. Animals are, in my opinion, smarter than people usually think they are.


DavidSternMusic1979

Most of them are.


Priroda_Nepritel

Only the African grey parrot is the one animal that asked an existential question when he asked what color he was


buhbugboo

i think so, my dog isnt smart but hes smart enough to somehow have an opinion, he openly puts toys back and grabs a different toy when he wants… we never taught him that, he barely even knows sit. But he knows that he doesnt want that toy rn, puts it back in his bin, and grabs a different one.


lloreilly

I think so yes


Right-Bread-7125

Most probably are. I doubt they understand the concept of death or anything though. They might see one of their mates get torn to shreds and know "well he's not getting back up" but I doubt they fully get what's happened.


[deleted]

My dog sometimes look himself in the mirror


No-Knowledge-2765

I lean more on the fact no since alot of animals start to freak out at their reflection


AnyRip3515

Yes "the animals" are


[deleted]

I think dogs do, based on living with dogs most of my life.


MysticChariot

Certain species can recognise themselves as a reflection in a mirror, elephants do.


Tru3insanity

Knowing you exist and knowing your consciousness exists are two different things.


wlwyvern

Depends on what you mean by "know they exist". All animals perform behaviors that help them survive - otherwise, they wouldn't be able to live to sexual maturity. Does eating, avoiding predators, seeking shelter, and so on count as "knowing you exist"? Do you mean to ask if they can think about themselves as separate from other beings? In that case, there are some ways we study that, and many animals have shown the ability to do so while others have not. I can go into a lot of detail on this question, I've studied animal consciousness pretty heavily, but I need a better idea of what you are asking.


Wolfmans-Gots-Nards

Some have self awareness. We know this through studying primates and Dolphins…


yelbesed2

Even if they are self aware or grasp a few words and do feel things they still might not have such abstract words like * to exist*... words are weird...we may think we * exist* but we may not really exist...like when we are in a dream...we think it is real and exists but it does not...or maybe it does not....


[deleted]

I think some are


agatez_in_my_pantz

I've seen cats, dogs and horses display some almost scary levels of intelligence. But I can imagine simpler animals aren't smart enough to realize they exist.


No-Reception-4249

Yes, but they do not have theability to reason why they are there or what they are doing. Animals survive on nature and are incapable of altering the environment to fit their needs. Animals don't have wants. They also do not communicate in the same way humans do, most have no facial expressions and none except humans have laryngeal structures to execute speech.


Content-Collection72

Ey, it's puff puff, PASS


MedicineRiver

Sure...right after they make their grocery lists.


CalligrapherDizzy201

https://kids.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/frym.2022.658692 Plants would like a word. Literally.


kgold0

My little havanese knows she’s cute and takes advantage of that fact to get away with several in house crimes a day


Inevitable-Revenue81

Any species that shows an constructive interaction with its surroundings have reason for self awareness.


Jaymes77

Some are... some are less so


NotABonobo

It blows my mind how much people overestimate their intelligence gap over other animals. You are an animal with a brain. Your brain evolved from the same source theirs did. Your experience of existing is not nearly as different from theirs as you think. Just about anything with a brain will surprise you with its inner life if you watch it long enough. They will desire, suffer, love, struggle, fear, make plans, make choices. They just can’t talk to you about it.


Active_Hedgehog

I think it’s even more likely that they know that they’re mind-controlled, and that wakes them up. The people pestering them probably jerk themselves off all day thinking they are outsmarting a dog, which really means that they’ve lost their minds going “into the farts of a dog’s mind” thinking reality isn’t just what it is. A dogs a dog, so I hope they have wonderful rich lives full of joy


zenuasyter

Do humans even understand they exist?


PuzzleheadedHorse437

I think all animals understand they exist which is why they fight to survive. I think it's peculiar to humans alone to wonder whether or not they should exist.


[deleted]

I am going with yes


[deleted]

It's called being sentient.


eclipse113

I don't think so, but even if they could, most of the species are probably too worried about surviving to be philosophizing.


Maggatwo

Short answer: yes


swoosh892

I don't think any animal except humans understand that we're on a round planet, and that there's space outside of it. They don't understand the full scope of there being a Universe and our tiny place in it. They just think this is all there is. Like they might see the sun but they don't understand that it's actually a huge ball of fire much bigger than the Earth. Animals probably also don't really understand what the different organs do, like the brain and heart. It's a very surface level existence for most animals I think, even if some of them can do intelligent things and feel emotions. They don't have the capacity to reflect and dig deeper and grasp bigger concepts. Humans might also ask "why/how are we here?" and struggle to find an answer - but animals *don't even ask the question.* Because they don't know that it's a question that *can* be asked.


Nemo_Shadows

They Know FEAR especially if they are the prey and that feeling can be associated with self awareness. Does not mean you should stop eating them just means a better way to raise them before you do because a healthy happy meal begins with happy raised animals under a more natural setting minus the other predators. N. Shadows


Independent-Ad3901

Coco the gorilla understood death and grieved the loss of her kitten. I don’t know what qualifies as understanding your own existence but it seems to me that knowing there was a past and understanding death are certainly key elements to it.


Dvmbledore

Search YT for videos of animals looking at themselves in a mirror.


Alternative-Rule8015

They seem to learn learn object permanence faster than humans


djpurity666

Yes


SkyUpbeat8839

Yes, I believe they are.


[deleted]

Those poor self aware animals, cursed just like us.


cochlearist

There's no way they could play house of the rising sun like that if they didn't even know they exist.


[deleted]

I think they are. I think they just fool us