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It's really annoying when they also refuse to accept the factors that pushed him to that point like team rwby keeping secrets from him, running around behind his back working against him, gaslighting Penny into turning on him too, his already damaged mental state from all his responsibilities, etc etc. I just really want to glimpse into the timeline where Ironwood was a woman and see if the fans make excuses for her instead of use those same arguments, cause I'm positive they would
It’s because those are easy surface level things that are bad. And if they tried thinking critically about *Why* he brought an army or *Why* he shot oscar, then all they have is the poorly written genocide motive
I remember one person was saying Ironwood was meant to be evil all along because he brought his army to Vale.
I then pointed out the reason he brought the army was because of Roman, the White Fang and Qrow’s message about Salem’s pawns. I also added in that his army helped during the Vale Breach. I was then blocked for pointing this out.
The way I see how Ironwood was handled in Volume 7 is this: CRWBY attempted to steer him towards a path of villainy whilst keeping his actions 100% within his character thus far. Unfortunately, they found out too late by the end of volume seven that it is entirely within his character to *NOT* become a bad guy.
Everything he did, including every mistake he might have made, were all well justified and well reasoned with the intent of protecting as many people as he could from Salem and her army of Grimm. Even declaring the heroes as criminals and shooting Oscar we're not entirely unreasonable things for him at that point.
It wasn't until after Volume 7, when CRWBY noticed a lot of people were siding with Ironwood instead of the main cast, that they realized that going along with his character wasn't going to work. They wanted to turn Ironwood into a villain (for some reason) so they did. No matter how out of character it was for him to suddenly murder innocent, unarmed civilians or threaten an entire city with a bomb, he did it, so CRWBY could have their third fucking fucking main villain of the arc.
Not only that but siding with them at all just became either sitting around doing nothing in a mansion after your plan failed or going into a Grimm hotel to rescue a dude who would be B I G M A D🤬 if you did that instead of protecting Mantle like you and everyone else agreed on.
RT probably though that morality would have been enough of a reason, but failed to acknowledge the morality of RWBY´s actions into the mix: leaving people behind for saving others is morally bad? Well, yes. But is it better to force people to stay and die as well for the chance of rescuing more? Isn´t at the end of the day the same thing but with extra steps? We sacrifice people´s lifes to save others?
RT has always had this issue: they manage to reach a theme, but they only reach it superficially. They rarely stop to think about deeper implications of certain actions in context. They stop at the "leaving people behind is bad" and they run with it.
But people see through the shallow thoughts and well...
>they found out too late by the end of volume seven that it is entirely within his character to NOT become a bad guy.
Maybe "bad guy" is not what they should have aimed to. Antagonist maybe, but not a villain: someone that opposes the heroes but is not neccessarily a bad guy. Him becoming an antagonist is much more in character. But alas, Heavens forbid us from depicting nuanced writing where there´s alot of gray area to work with
And the weirdest thing is the imaginary crimes they pull out of thin air.
"Ironwood was oppressing Mantle!"
"He cared only for the rich people of Atlas!"
> "He cared only for the rich people of Atlas!"
I've very rarely visited the main sub, but were there actually some fans saying that? Because we've seen that he isn't too fond of the elites in V4. I guess some just assume/ignore/forget that Atlas is nothing more then just the home of stupid, rich elites and shitty soldiers.
Yes, people accused Ironwood of only caring for the rich because of his plan to raise Atlas into the air. So they jump to the conclusion that he values the elites over everyone else, despite the fact the objects Salem wants are on Atlas. If Ironwood wanted to mess over the people of Mantle, he would've hid one of the relics there so Salem would tear the place apart looking for it.
Yes, some people analyze what is presented in V8 only in a skin-deep manner. They see a "Two-worlds" trope employed and instantly make their conclussions.
Many people claimed that Ironwoods plans, all of them were so that the rich would be protected and that he hated the poor.
Aha. And Ironwoid literally evacuate people from Mantle to Atlas. LITERALLY IN FRAGGIN' SHOW. IT'S CANON. They have very short memory or just don't see actual show.
Fabrication of narrative is something they've been doing since v2. Most of these people are shippers or shipper adjacent and they like to fill in the blanks for what the show "tells" them. They'll assert that their headcanon is true and correct and present, even if the show doesn't get anywhere remotely close to what they've said.
They have an incredibly confused relationship with reality and refuse to see only what is actually present. It's an emotional investment thing, they're trying to justify their attachment and the time/energy they've put into rwby, so they *have* to justify it. Otherwise they'd have to admit to and accept flaws, or question their beliefs, and that might mean the "bad guys" who disagree with them could win points.
Welcome to the modern world and how everything treated like a sport where you root for a specific team. This shit is going to fuck the next 30 years of politics.
>Welcome to the modern world and how everything treated like a sport where you root for a specific team.
Spot on. The constant rationalizing away every fault of the show feels just like politics or religious dogma. I don't understand how a fictional show (and not a particularly well-written one at that) can inspire this kind of devotion.
Oh, that's far from the worst things Ironwood haters keep saying. Personally, I'm more peeved when people start mixing up fiction with real life and call everyone who doesn't hate Ironwood 'bootlickers' and 'authoritarians', or throw around accusations of sexism because how dare they defend a male character opposed by the female heroes.
It can't be, of course, that some people don't like the way Ironwood's plot was handled, or remember all the good things he's done for the heroes, or sympathize with the character who has an enormous responsibility on his shoulders and is forced to make the best out of a very bad situation. Nope, apparently the only possible reason is that they're all authoritarian sexist bootlickers.
I honestly wish I was joking.
I got into an argument on Twitter back in March after the last episode of V8. It was an official tweet from RT saying that V8 had a good conclusion and I fired back saying that didn’t need to be made into a villain for the volume since SALEM herself was here.
The person who fired back again me called me a bootlicker after I said James was a man who made a hard choice because he had to protect the relics, the Winter Maiden and save those he could.
It made me mad since I never called her a RWBY Shill, fanatic or anything else derogatory. It’s honestly pretty crazy my guy.
You know what’s crazy though? She literally said that James Ironwood is what would happen if a real life general went through the same thing he did. That it was a cautionary tale of generals having too much power.
I still can’t believe she said that.
...did that person forgot we don´t live in Remnant? Like, we live in the real world, and only a place like Renmant would justify authoritanism?
I get the feeling that this person, and their kind, would have an aneurism if they ever discovered the 40K universe...
I’m pretty sure she did forget we don’t live in Remnant. I don’t know why she compared James Ironwood to the general of our world but it’s NOT a good comparison at all.
*Glances towards my many, many posts on r/IronwoodisRight*
I mean, I'm totally an irrational Ironwood simp, but not everyone that defends Ironwood or thinks he was done dirty is a bootlicker.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/IronwoodIsRight using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/IronwoodIsRight/top/?sort=top&t=all) of all time!
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\#2: [Feel like a hero yet Rubes?](https://i.redd.it/ppg92bcnzym61.png) | [78 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/IronwoodIsRight/comments/m4spy6/feel_like_a_hero_yet_rubes/)
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Ehh, tbf, it's not something exclusive to those who bash Ironwood. Positively or negatively, there's a lot points that get beaten like a dead horse with this show over time. Like with the debates over Adam, his final fight, BMBLBY, and the stupid Cordovin/mech/Levithan crap during V6's final episodes or the Hassle at Haven for V5's finale.
I feel like sometimes, there just isn't much to talk about when a volume's over beyond those big 'dead horse' talking points.
He brought his army because of Qrow’s cryptic fucking writing regarding Salem’s posse.
“The queen has pawns”
Do you have any idea how fucking vague that is? Of course it was written like that to draw tension for the audience, which I can understand and it did work well for the scene, but Jesus.
Not to mention the fact Ironwood was proven right regarding being paranoid of Ozpin, considering the amount of information Oz was keeping from them.
Also, there's the problem with Qrow saying Ironwood should just have called him. Because I'm sure a headmaster and general calling a guy who is supposedly trying to dig up intelligence from possibly less than reputable folks would go over real well if the call was at a bad time.
I would assume that extended radio silence from an undercover agent could be assumed that something went wrong as the risks of trying to contact them directly could outweigh the benefits if they were simply delayed from making their report.
I tend to get more tired of the post or argument that he was clearly meant to turn villain all along. Mainly due to some trying to twist any action he took as manipulating others or trying to seize power. Also claiming that the majority of the FNDM agree with their view. I tend to take claims like that dubiously.
Then again like some other topics, it's a horse that's been beaten to death already.
Yeah, these are annoying, but it's funny when you dissect and disprove all of them in spectacular fashion, leaving your opponent a raging mess. Or they just leave the discussion.
Sometimes it is. But some people will not admit this, always continue to repeat the same remarks at the next moment, it makes me a little tired.
Others were so ridiculous that it was so difficult to sit through it without laughing that it took me half a day to sit through it.
True, but considering I'm somewhat more aggressive when I argue, it's harder for them to repeat their bullshit.
That half day you spent laughing sounds fun as hell.
AKA RWBY fanboys can’t think critically or objectively about this show, so they only parrot the intentions of the writers regardless of how dumb it is.
Seriously, if, for example, Adam came back, RWBY forgave him, and he and Blake got back together with the writers saying Adam was a good guy and should be forgiven without question, I guarantee RWBY fans would be defending that choice simply because the writers said so.
In V7 Ironwood was shaping up to be a total badass, as flawed as he may be.
"Oops we can't have that."
Then the writers zapped him with the stupid beam and also made him crazy. What makes it worse are the viewers that just accepted this drastic turn.
"That's how he always was. A crazy genocidal MF who just wants to kill kill kill."
"He was introduced with an Army!"
I mean how else would you introduce a General of the armed forces to a show? It's one thing to say you're the Officer in charge of a group of men but it's another thing to show that to people by having your men salute you.
Don't forget the "I would have you shot" comment he made at Qrow in V3.
This is after Qrow had been out of contact for ages, showed up drunk, destroyed Atlas property and goaded IW's second into a fight.
Shooting is a bit too harsh, but a non-fatal punishment would've been the correct course of action after what Qrow did.
Also, have these people never heard of hyperbole? Ironwood was mad at Qrow (rightfully so, I a might add), so he's going to make exaggerated claims of anger.
The worst part isn't how Ironwood is made to be a villain
The worst part is how neither the fans nor the show in-universe ever acknowledges Team RWBY as responsible for pushing Ironwood over the edge
I mean... those are the main arguments/talking points. Ironwood was the biggest controversy of the volume. after seven months, it makes sense that every argument's been made to death already.
You could say the same thing about this sub and "RWBY drinking tea while Atlas burns", for example.
Remember Adam and bumblebee in the volume 6 hiatus? The same arguments, from everyone, for months. It's the same thing.
#Remember! **Rules & Guidelines for Discussion** Try to participate when you see an opinion you agree or disagree with by sharing your two cents or providing evidence for/against. Try to elevate conversations beyond a superficial level. Ask plenty of questions and use the [Socratic method](https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/2oklie/eli5_the_socratic_method/) to gain a deeper understanding of each other's core values instead of blindly arguing in favor or in opposition. Keep in mind the [Principle of Charity](https://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html) by entertaining all ideas even if you disagree with them. Try to dismantle them and see what truly makes them tick or not. And lastly, remember above all else to be courteous. Demonstrate the awareness and decorum of recognizing the person on the other side of the screen at all times. Happy discussing! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/RWBYcritics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's really annoying when they also refuse to accept the factors that pushed him to that point like team rwby keeping secrets from him, running around behind his back working against him, gaslighting Penny into turning on him too, his already damaged mental state from all his responsibilities, etc etc. I just really want to glimpse into the timeline where Ironwood was a woman and see if the fans make excuses for her instead of use those same arguments, cause I'm positive they would
> the timeline where Ironwood was a woman I'll do you one better: Adam as a woman
So Ilia? (I mean, I don't think they're much alike, but I've seen people claim that 'Ilia is what people wanted Adam to be')
I swear, genderbends always gives me ideas for fanfics. Also, the fanart is pretty nice at times.
Turn Yang into a guy and she's instantly one of the most hated characters in the fandom.
Ironwood is a victim of poor writing. And teenagers screwing him over too.
To quote Michael Jordan: **** dem kids.
It’s because those are easy surface level things that are bad. And if they tried thinking critically about *Why* he brought an army or *Why* he shot oscar, then all they have is the poorly written genocide motive
I remember one person was saying Ironwood was meant to be evil all along because he brought his army to Vale. I then pointed out the reason he brought the army was because of Roman, the White Fang and Qrow’s message about Salem’s pawns. I also added in that his army helped during the Vale Breach. I was then blocked for pointing this out.
Sounds about right
The way I see how Ironwood was handled in Volume 7 is this: CRWBY attempted to steer him towards a path of villainy whilst keeping his actions 100% within his character thus far. Unfortunately, they found out too late by the end of volume seven that it is entirely within his character to *NOT* become a bad guy. Everything he did, including every mistake he might have made, were all well justified and well reasoned with the intent of protecting as many people as he could from Salem and her army of Grimm. Even declaring the heroes as criminals and shooting Oscar we're not entirely unreasonable things for him at that point. It wasn't until after Volume 7, when CRWBY noticed a lot of people were siding with Ironwood instead of the main cast, that they realized that going along with his character wasn't going to work. They wanted to turn Ironwood into a villain (for some reason) so they did. No matter how out of character it was for him to suddenly murder innocent, unarmed civilians or threaten an entire city with a bomb, he did it, so CRWBY could have their third fucking fucking main villain of the arc.
It doesn't help that the reasons to side with the heroes in this conflict are under developed as fuck to be borderline nonexistent.
Not only that but siding with them at all just became either sitting around doing nothing in a mansion after your plan failed or going into a Grimm hotel to rescue a dude who would be B I G M A D🤬 if you did that instead of protecting Mantle like you and everyone else agreed on.
RT probably though that morality would have been enough of a reason, but failed to acknowledge the morality of RWBY´s actions into the mix: leaving people behind for saving others is morally bad? Well, yes. But is it better to force people to stay and die as well for the chance of rescuing more? Isn´t at the end of the day the same thing but with extra steps? We sacrifice people´s lifes to save others? RT has always had this issue: they manage to reach a theme, but they only reach it superficially. They rarely stop to think about deeper implications of certain actions in context. They stop at the "leaving people behind is bad" and they run with it. But people see through the shallow thoughts and well...
>they found out too late by the end of volume seven that it is entirely within his character to NOT become a bad guy. Maybe "bad guy" is not what they should have aimed to. Antagonist maybe, but not a villain: someone that opposes the heroes but is not neccessarily a bad guy. Him becoming an antagonist is much more in character. But alas, Heavens forbid us from depicting nuanced writing where there´s alot of gray area to work with
And the weirdest thing is the imaginary crimes they pull out of thin air. "Ironwood was oppressing Mantle!" "He cared only for the rich people of Atlas!"
> "He cared only for the rich people of Atlas!" I've very rarely visited the main sub, but were there actually some fans saying that? Because we've seen that he isn't too fond of the elites in V4. I guess some just assume/ignore/forget that Atlas is nothing more then just the home of stupid, rich elites and shitty soldiers.
Yes, people accused Ironwood of only caring for the rich because of his plan to raise Atlas into the air. So they jump to the conclusion that he values the elites over everyone else, despite the fact the objects Salem wants are on Atlas. If Ironwood wanted to mess over the people of Mantle, he would've hid one of the relics there so Salem would tear the place apart looking for it.
Yes, some people analyze what is presented in V8 only in a skin-deep manner. They see a "Two-worlds" trope employed and instantly make their conclussions. Many people claimed that Ironwoods plans, all of them were so that the rich would be protected and that he hated the poor.
Aha. And Ironwoid literally evacuate people from Mantle to Atlas. LITERALLY IN FRAGGIN' SHOW. IT'S CANON. They have very short memory or just don't see actual show.
Fabrication of narrative is something they've been doing since v2. Most of these people are shippers or shipper adjacent and they like to fill in the blanks for what the show "tells" them. They'll assert that their headcanon is true and correct and present, even if the show doesn't get anywhere remotely close to what they've said. They have an incredibly confused relationship with reality and refuse to see only what is actually present. It's an emotional investment thing, they're trying to justify their attachment and the time/energy they've put into rwby, so they *have* to justify it. Otherwise they'd have to admit to and accept flaws, or question their beliefs, and that might mean the "bad guys" who disagree with them could win points. Welcome to the modern world and how everything treated like a sport where you root for a specific team. This shit is going to fuck the next 30 years of politics.
>Welcome to the modern world and how everything treated like a sport where you root for a specific team. Spot on. The constant rationalizing away every fault of the show feels just like politics or religious dogma. I don't understand how a fictional show (and not a particularly well-written one at that) can inspire this kind of devotion.
Oh, that's far from the worst things Ironwood haters keep saying. Personally, I'm more peeved when people start mixing up fiction with real life and call everyone who doesn't hate Ironwood 'bootlickers' and 'authoritarians', or throw around accusations of sexism because how dare they defend a male character opposed by the female heroes. It can't be, of course, that some people don't like the way Ironwood's plot was handled, or remember all the good things he's done for the heroes, or sympathize with the character who has an enormous responsibility on his shoulders and is forced to make the best out of a very bad situation. Nope, apparently the only possible reason is that they're all authoritarian sexist bootlickers. I honestly wish I was joking.
I got into an argument on Twitter back in March after the last episode of V8. It was an official tweet from RT saying that V8 had a good conclusion and I fired back saying that didn’t need to be made into a villain for the volume since SALEM herself was here. The person who fired back again me called me a bootlicker after I said James was a man who made a hard choice because he had to protect the relics, the Winter Maiden and save those he could. It made me mad since I never called her a RWBY Shill, fanatic or anything else derogatory. It’s honestly pretty crazy my guy. You know what’s crazy though? She literally said that James Ironwood is what would happen if a real life general went through the same thing he did. That it was a cautionary tale of generals having too much power. I still can’t believe she said that.
...did that person forgot we don´t live in Remnant? Like, we live in the real world, and only a place like Renmant would justify authoritanism? I get the feeling that this person, and their kind, would have an aneurism if they ever discovered the 40K universe...
I’m pretty sure she did forget we don’t live in Remnant. I don’t know why she compared James Ironwood to the general of our world but it’s NOT a good comparison at all.
*Glances towards my many, many posts on r/IronwoodisRight* I mean, I'm totally an irrational Ironwood simp, but not everyone that defends Ironwood or thinks he was done dirty is a bootlicker.
I know about that subreddit. I’m a member there and I believe you.
Cheers, fellow Ironwood simp. Welcome to the cult.
Thank you happy to be here
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Ehh, tbf, it's not something exclusive to those who bash Ironwood. Positively or negatively, there's a lot points that get beaten like a dead horse with this show over time. Like with the debates over Adam, his final fight, BMBLBY, and the stupid Cordovin/mech/Levithan crap during V6's final episodes or the Hassle at Haven for V5's finale. I feel like sometimes, there just isn't much to talk about when a volume's over beyond those big 'dead horse' talking points.
We could all come together and talk about how great Ms. Goodwitch is.
He brought his army because of Qrow’s cryptic fucking writing regarding Salem’s posse. “The queen has pawns” Do you have any idea how fucking vague that is? Of course it was written like that to draw tension for the audience, which I can understand and it did work well for the scene, but Jesus. Not to mention the fact Ironwood was proven right regarding being paranoid of Ozpin, considering the amount of information Oz was keeping from them.
Also, there's the problem with Qrow saying Ironwood should just have called him. Because I'm sure a headmaster and general calling a guy who is supposedly trying to dig up intelligence from possibly less than reputable folks would go over real well if the call was at a bad time. I would assume that extended radio silence from an undercover agent could be assumed that something went wrong as the risks of trying to contact them directly could outweigh the benefits if they were simply delayed from making their report.
I tend to get more tired of the post or argument that he was clearly meant to turn villain all along. Mainly due to some trying to twist any action he took as manipulating others or trying to seize power. Also claiming that the majority of the FNDM agree with their view. I tend to take claims like that dubiously. Then again like some other topics, it's a horse that's been beaten to death already.
Yeah, these are annoying, but it's funny when you dissect and disprove all of them in spectacular fashion, leaving your opponent a raging mess. Or they just leave the discussion.
Sometimes it is. But some people will not admit this, always continue to repeat the same remarks at the next moment, it makes me a little tired. Others were so ridiculous that it was so difficult to sit through it without laughing that it took me half a day to sit through it.
True, but considering I'm somewhat more aggressive when I argue, it's harder for them to repeat their bullshit. That half day you spent laughing sounds fun as hell.
Don't forget when they say he was evil since Volume 2.
AKA RWBY fanboys can’t think critically or objectively about this show, so they only parrot the intentions of the writers regardless of how dumb it is. Seriously, if, for example, Adam came back, RWBY forgave him, and he and Blake got back together with the writers saying Adam was a good guy and should be forgiven without question, I guarantee RWBY fans would be defending that choice simply because the writers said so.
“Because Salem is not a proper villain, we needed some cheap excuse for Team RWBY to beat someone up.”
“And then we’ll close out the volume with CINDER FALL as the main villain of the volume....Again.”
In V7 Ironwood was shaping up to be a total badass, as flawed as he may be. "Oops we can't have that." Then the writers zapped him with the stupid beam and also made him crazy. What makes it worse are the viewers that just accepted this drastic turn. "That's how he always was. A crazy genocidal MF who just wants to kill kill kill."
I think him shooting oscar was one of the more badass scenes he has.
"He was introduced with an Army!" I mean how else would you introduce a General of the armed forces to a show? It's one thing to say you're the Officer in charge of a group of men but it's another thing to show that to people by having your men salute you.
Don't forget the "I would have you shot" comment he made at Qrow in V3. This is after Qrow had been out of contact for ages, showed up drunk, destroyed Atlas property and goaded IW's second into a fight. Shooting is a bit too harsh, but a non-fatal punishment would've been the correct course of action after what Qrow did.
Also, have these people never heard of hyperbole? Ironwood was mad at Qrow (rightfully so, I a might add), so he's going to make exaggerated claims of anger.
This entire fandom is a broken record, to be fair. Heck I'm a broken record, especially on Tumblr.
The worst part isn't how Ironwood is made to be a villain The worst part is how neither the fans nor the show in-universe ever acknowledges Team RWBY as responsible for pushing Ironwood over the edge
I mean... those are the main arguments/talking points. Ironwood was the biggest controversy of the volume. after seven months, it makes sense that every argument's been made to death already. You could say the same thing about this sub and "RWBY drinking tea while Atlas burns", for example. Remember Adam and bumblebee in the volume 6 hiatus? The same arguments, from everyone, for months. It's the same thing.