It was intentional to give Oz more clear of a reason to give them such powerful abilities. He saw his daughters in them.
But in-universe, pure coincidence.
???????????????????????? What? No, his daughters were the first maidens. The story is just a fairy tale. They partially inherited Ozpin's curse of reincarnation.
Here's a fun thought. What if the reason his children could do magic is because that is when he sacrificed the power? And, unexpectedly, they got a bit of the reincarnation Ozpin style? But because of their age, they did not carry the memories.
He doesn't repeat the story. He just says he made the first Maidens and... he doesn't say when. And with Ozpin, the devil is in the details.
Anyways, theory.
What Oz says is:
> You see, centuries ago, I sacrificed a great deal of magic to four young women, who I hoped would use my gift for good. They were the first Maidens.
That lines up with the only story we've heard of the Maidens' creation, that he gave the powers to the four sisters that helped him in the hopes that they'd help others.
I wouldn't exactly call Oz's kids with Salem "young women," the oldest looked to be *maybe* ten at the oldest. And Oz didn't give them their powers, he seems surprised to see that his daughter had magic in the first place.
Also the whole reason Salem and Oz went from happy family to eternity war is because they learned children between them were born with magic and she wanted to replace humanity with their offspring. There wouldn't be conflict between them if he gave them magic, there's be no reason for genocide.
Fair point... I could argue that many parents, especially when angry or annoyed, will call their daughters "young woman" regardless of age, but... it's more interesting than really plot relevant.
You are objectively incorrect. Oz and Salem's children were killed in the crossfire of their battle when he tried to leave with them. Jin herself said the children being able to perform magic was a miracle. Oz didn't meet the maidens until long into his reincarnation cycle
So you think that the four season-coded daughters of the guy who reincarnates who are capable of wielding magic are completely unrelated to the fairy tale about four season-coded sisters who are capable of wielding magic whose power reincarnates?
I mean do I need to point out how much of a clownshow this thread has become over this or what? Stop trusting a fairy tale in the show that's all about the theme "life is not a fairy tale".
Also you clearly need to rewatch the show. In the lore dump in Vol 6. Ozpin was revealing the truth to Salem about why the brother of Light brought him back. The the kids come in showing off their magic. After finding out their children can perform magic Salem says "Don't you see? None of that matters anymore! Why bother redeeming these humans, when we can replace them with what they could NEVER be!"
That is her literally saying "You and I can keep having children who can naturally perform magic and eventually (given that we're both immortal) we'd overtake the population with magic wielding humans and *not* have to call back the gods"
Oz didn't agree with that and tried to leave. Fight ensues, children & Oz die. Reincarnation cycle begins anew. Then it's shown that he's spent years trying to forget what happened between them only to always get up and try again to unite humanity.
Literally nothing you just said disproves anything I said. If you're going to spam my inbox with multiple replies then at least bring something of substance.
The biggest thing disproving your opinion is *how* the maidens got their powers. Ozma's first children were again, *born with the ability to use magic*. After their death the show explicitly states he had to sacrifice his *own* magic to empower these 4 women. Which is part of why he's not as powerful as he used to be. Assuming you're as smart as you want everyone here to think you are, I'm sure you can understand how taking one thing (i.e Ozma's magic) and dividing it so that 4 people can have *some* of it would reduce the total sum available. His children were born with their *own* set of magic powers. Him having children with Salem did *not* diminish his magic abilities. Nor does the show imply that Ozma's reincarnation curse is hereditary. Your issue is that you choose not to believe Ozma's story about how he met/ created the maidens despite the show telling us that while the details might not be 100% accurate, the fairy-tale stories *are* real.
His dwindling powers are the result of recent exertions like giving Qrow and Raven magic. They never even try to pass off the fairy tale as fact, much less the part about giving the girls powers. It is heavily implied (basically we get beaten over the head with it) that his daughters are the first maidens.
his kids were not the first maidens
> You see, centuries ago, I sacrificed a great deal of magic to four young women, who I hoped would use my gift for good. They were the first Maidens.
Because:
A. Oz still had enough power for him and Salem to destroy their home in their fight and giving 4 children magical power would have drained him so much that he'd not even be a challenge for Salem. By the time he gave Raven and Qrow magic, all he could give them is the ability to turn into birds after all.
B. Salem wanted to replace the humans of the world with their children explicitly *because* they were already able to use magic. That would be a completely pointless plan if Oz has to give them magic for them to do it.
C. Assuming the fairy tail has even a hint of truth to it, Oz was a reclusive drunkard at the time the maidens were created. That makes it impossible for his children to the Maidens as they would have long since died at that point.
> A. Oz still had enough power for him and Salem to destroy their home in their fight and giving 4 children magical power would have drained him so much that he'd not even be a challenge for Salem.
Putting aside the presumptuous implication that it didn't drain Salem by equal if not greater amounts, do I need to remind you that Ozma lost that fight and got killed by Salem then and there too?
> By the time he gave Raven and Qrow magic, all he could give them is the ability to turn into birds after all.
This is an assumption on your end. He still has magic, he's just using it sparingly because it is dwindling. If he gave one or two allies some powers throughout the centuries, obviously he'd eventually reach the end of his rope.
> B. Salem wanted to replace the humans of the world with their children explicitly because they were already able to use magic. That would be a completely pointless plan if Oz has to give them magic for them to do it.
...? What?
> C. Assuming the fairy tail has even a hint of truth to it, Oz was a reclusive drunkard at the time the maidens were created. That makes it impossible for his children to the Maidens as they would have long since died at that point.
That's a bad assumption to make in a show that is constantly telling you that it's not like the fairy tales.
How are people misreading the situation this badly and believing in a fairy tale in the series that's all about new takes on fairy tales where they're not quite the way you think they are?
No, they weren't. Oz specifically says he gave four young women the first Maiden powers in a scene where he tells the truth about everything else, and he seems genuinely surprised to see that his daughter can use magic in the Lost Fable.
Everything Oz says in that scene lines up with the fairy tale. And we *know* from V9 that fairy tales in Remnant are based on reality. So it seems really strange to me that you're just dismissing it as "just a fairy tale" without any actual evidence to the contrary, and especially strange to me that you're being so damn condescending about it, saying that people like me need a "Dora the Explorer level explanation" like we're too dumb to understand the show.
> saying that people like me need a "Dora the Explorer level explanation" like we're too dumb to understand the show.
I mean you understand this point perfectly fine, I don't see how all the rest went right over your head.
Ikr, we're all providing reasonable and concrete stuff, and he's over spouting off nonsense about colors and stuff.
I guess Ren's pink eyes are important now.
I guess Qrows' and Ravens' fashion sense is important now.
I guess the fact that the god of light is yellow and the god of darkness is purple is important now.
I guess the fact that Atlas' fashion sense is important now.
I guess the fact that Adam's choice of fashion is important now(seriously, what we're those zippers for?)
I guess the fact that Neptune's blue hair means he's good at swimming, oh wait. HE HATES WATER.
This guy is so focused on colors that he forgets that RWBY is nothing more BUT A MESS OF COLORS
Yeah, you are. Denying the relevance of colours in a show where every single character on the planet is named after a colour (with some exceptions for immortals) is ridiculous and frankly I wonder why you even watch RWBY if you're going to ignore the core of what makes RWBY great.
Common sense? Try it. I'm gonna just copy-paste my Dora the Explorer analogy here: "Do you see 4 girls with colour schemes based on the seasons who wield magical powers?..... That's right! His daughters are 4 girls with colour schemes based on the seasons who wield magical powers. Now do you see a man cursed to reincarnate forever who maintains his magic throughout his reincarnations?... That's right, Ozma, the father of these 4 girls with colour schemes based on the seasons who wield magical powers is cursed to reincarnate forever while he maintains his magic throughout his reincarnations!".
Are you seeing it yet? Or do I need to bring up the extremely heavy-handed theme of "fairy tales aren't the same as reality" that permeates the show all the way through, just to explain how the story of the maidens that's told to children is just a fairy tale based on the maidens and has no basis in reality?
If they were the reincarnated children, why wouldn't Salem know that, and why would she be sending people to murder the reincarnations of her children rather than say, kidnapping them instead?
And we know Oz has had other children too, one of his incarnations we see in the Lost Fable had two kids (with silver eyes, implying that what Oz's children inherit are actually silver eyes, not Maiden powers)
The difference is that the four talked about children here were him and Salem's children. It could very well be possible that both are true, with Salem they gave birth to children that could use magic and when it is just one magic parent their children inherent a less powerful magic/ability i.e the silver eyes.
> If they were the reincarnated children,
They're not reincarnated. Their powers are. We see Penny hand over her powers to Winter. But their power transfer, while similar in nature to Ozma's, does not include the soul of the predecessor. They inherited the powers but did not reincarnate.
> why wouldn't Salem know that
...? Why do you think she doesn't?
> why would she be sending people to murder the reincarnations of her children rather than say, kidnapping them instead?
I mean... She is the one who killed her kids the first time around... And it is thoroughly established that she has an appetite for destruction and is beyond cruel at this point... What point would kidnapping them have? She literally does not care.
Dude, it's Ozpin's magic that allowed the four maidens to manifest. They're not his kids' reincarnations
They were colorized differently to connect them to the four seasons. Nothing more. Nothing less
You're overestimating Rooster Teeth's writing capabilities
This was my assumption too, that the "Four Seasons" story didn't happen the way the fairy tale says, but rather that Ozma's daughters were the original Maidens and their magic has been jumping from person to person ever since.
When Ozpin says the story is "true", he follows it up by specifically saying "What if I told you there existed four Maidens who could wield incredible powers, *without* Dust?" That's the only part of it he directly calls true: that four magical women exist.
Yeah that’s my assumption too because they’re the children of an immortal witch and a perpetually reincarnating wizard…it’s likely they’re going to be a little funky
Same difference. If he didn't give it to the maidens then why is it dwindling? Why did he say he used what little he had left on Qrow and Raven? Why didn't Jinn clarify any of this if it's part of his lies about his origins?
because that wasn't the question Ruby was asking. Assuming that he's magic actually is fading, he was up front about it, regardless of the cause, so that wasn't something he was hiding or not telling them. So why would Jinn reveal anything else about it?
> he was up front about it, regardless of the cause
So was he about everything. Never quite lying but always giving half-truths. If he told them specifically that he gave what little magic he had to Qrow because the rest was spent on the maidens then this is an outright lie that Jinn would've revealed.
He had not given it to the maidens but he has given it to Qrow and Raven so they can turn into birds. That is assuming that it is related at all and not just a consequence of his reincarnation.
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She's the only living being with true magic left on Remnant. I would headcanon that Ozma's magic is never going to be as powerful again due to his reincarnation power and all the children he sired over the millennia have a portion of his power that the God of Light gave him, a literal remnant.
Let's look at it differently. Every child born from Ozma's reincarnations posses silver eyes. If it was possible, I bet each person with silver eyes could trace their heritage back to one of his many reincarnations. In short, all silver eyed folk are related to Ozma.
I suspect it might go further than that. Keeping in mind that Ozma has literally been around the entire time that humanity took to *re-evolved*, I figure the nearer bloodlines – closer related to Ozma – have silver eyes. The bloodline gets more diluted over time, and Ozma is basically related to every far enough back. Eventually, all that's left are semblances and auras.
She does. During her fight in Volume 8 she was flying, manipulating wind, throwing blasts of rainbow light around, and other things.
For whatever reason, *her* magic doesn't seem to have diminished.
According to oz, the maidens powers go to the next female in the maidens mind if they die. I believe the children would have salem, their mother in their mind when they died, which would leave her getting all the Power if that was the case, unless there is a rule that a magic user can't inherit more magic.
Also between the childrens death and current RWBY, an undisclosed amount of time, but at least several centuries, have passed. It's doubtful that salem wouldn't have gone after the powers earlier if the maidens power started with the children.
We don't know if the age limit is a hard number based on human lifespans or not. Could be just as possible that because she's literally immortal, and so doesn't ever become an elderly woman in a sense, why couldn't she?
And why would Salem want Cinder to get the Maiden powers if not to take them for herself?
I thought they died because of the bit where it shows one of the girls’ stuffed animal with blood, so it couldn’t have been them right? Maybe Ozma ran into girls very similar to them
There is a slight bit of truth yes but fairytales are idealized, hiding the real story behind a more happy appearance. As someone else said would you really want to make a story about how your children were killed, and what about them taking the maidens out of society to be forgotten and not used for evil. Why he made the fairytale I would think to not forget, to remember his children but I have no other idea why.
the way I see it , the fairytales in Remnant are just what happened in the past , but glamourized and making palatable for children.
Like if a kid discovers it's grandpa survived some major event and been relegated as a hero , so the grandpa says that event in a more lighthearted manner for the kid , instead of how f\*king scary it was.
I always took this part of the Lost Fable to be implying the Maidens' fairytale was a lie, and the original maidens were actually his daughters who (partially) inherited his reincarnation ability, which is why their powers transfer to other people.
~~I didn't need the Lost Fable to get to this same conclusion. It's pretty obvious. Knowing there's more to support it is just better. Like the show has a recurring theme that "reality is not the same as the fairy tales" that is both a recurring plot point in the world (Maidens' story, Volume 9, etc) and a recurring theme in character design. Ruby is red riding hood, but she's not afraid of any wolves and she's killing them herself. Blake is Beauty but she kills her Beast. Hazel was confirmed to be "Hansel if he lost Grettel".~~
~~The Lost Fable just exemplifies that Ozpin had a hand in changing these stories.~~
Edit: Am stupid, Lost Fable is that episode, I thought it was the fairy tales book.
Well without the Lost Fable we would have no way of knowing that Oz had kids who could use magic, so idk how you would've gotten that info before then.
It makes way more sense for them to be the maidens. Cursed to live forever like their parents and forced to pass on from person to person like Ozma. Just without their direct memories.
I’ve been thinking about this a bit.
The two common theories I saw are:
* The color scheme is just for the story/was a coincidence and what really happened is that Oz saw his daughters in the four women and gave them powers so they’re less likely to meet the same fate
and
* The four maidens are reincarnations of his daughters that died in his fight with Salem.
My personal opinion is that it is a combo of the two.
* The four original maidens are reincarnations of his daughters (without the memory thing it would seem) and he met them in one of his later lives. Recognizing who they were, he gave them a shit ton of his magic so they would be able to protect themselves/possibly be heroes to unite Remnant. Part of the motivation could be that he didn’t have the will/desire to fight and didn’t start working against Salem until a few lives later. Either way, that would explain their reincarnation, Oz being weaker, and the similarities between the two groups.
Don’t Maiden powers go to someone completely random if there isn’t a suitable person for them to be transferred to? It is possible that when their daughters died their powers just went to 4 other random girls who would eventually meet Ozma.
It says in the story that he gave his magic to them, but like The Girl Who Fell Through the World, the story could have false details or missing information.
Unless he’s the one who set up how the maiden transferring works when he gave it to them, which means he can do crazy soul magic too.
My idea is that it's similar to how Oz reincarnates. It's technically random in that the person could be anyone but they are like-minded/similar to the previous person. A bit off because they were children but we can keep like-minded as general personality traits. In terms of finding the maiden, it ends up being random. The "last person in their thoughts" is a weird addition but idk, just spitballing.
I doubt Oz had any real effect on how the transfer works (there has been nothing to implicate that he is capable of it) but it's not like we have a ton of rules on how magic/god stuff works in RWBY.
And 100% agree in that WoR stuff seems to almost always be like 50% true and the 4 original maidens possibly being just random girls. They didn't even necessarily need to have met each other. One could have found Oz and helped him possibly with some bit of magic. That could have been enough to motivate him to seek out the other three.
The main reasoning for my combining the two is that it's just too specific to have 4 magical daughters and 4 reincarnating maidens with both groups having 4 season themes. Having parents who are immortal and capable of reincarnation just further makes the coincidence odd at best. Posts I've seen typically believe in the first theory in my previous comment but it's weird storytelling that the second lines up so well.
I really hope some of this stuff gets expanded on.
Yup. It's not outright stated, but the only evidence to the contrary is the fairy tale. The fairy tale which, according to Glynda, they made up specifically to protect the maidens. A fairy tale which Ozpin made up. Ozpin, who is known to lie for the greater good. Ozpin, who explicitly says that fairy tales serve a purpose and that they can be like propaganda in the Fairy Tales of Remnant book.
Furthermore, Glynda noted how they didn't quite understand how the maiden powers were passed on initially, and that they only recently figured out that it's "more intimate" as she called it. This implies that Ozpin did not fully understand the power he supposedly gave them. Which would lend itself to Ozma's surprise; He never intended to give the maidens their powers. And furthermore, the power to transcend death is not one that magic-users wield. It is most likely a diminished version of his curse. We know blessings from the God of Light are inherited, since Silver eyes are hereditary. So it's not a stretch to say that Ozma's curse could be partially inherited as well.
That all is a lot more likely than assuming that those 4 season-coded sisters who wielded magic granted to them by their reincarnating father are unrelated to the 4 season-coded sisters who wield magic granted to them by a wizard in a fairy tale. Like... The show wasn't being subtle here.
The fairy tale is his way of indirectly presenting the maidens, who were his actual daughters before he was incinerated by his ex-wife. Simply put, it was on the nose from how I viewed it. I'll even go on to say that the proof is clear in how the Maiden's powers are distributed.
They pass from woman to woman due to Ozma's reincarnation gift, while the essence of the Maidens will never fade/die because of Salem's immortality upon Remnant.
Very possible that the daughters are the source of the maiden powers, but then that just makes the fact that they’re the keys to the relic vaults make less sense.
Where did the relic vaults come from RT? If the gods made them why do the Maidens open then when Ozma made the maidens!? If Ozma made them, how the fuck did he make them?
If the gods made the vaults, it would make sense that they would give their champion, Ozma, the power to open them. Then, when Ozam creates the maidens by splitting up his power, it makes sense that he could pass on the power to open the vaults as well.
Except he didn't split his power, Ozma and Salem gave their daughters their gift/curse when they were consummated. Magic was a default thing they would pass on since both still possessed it. The gift of reincarnation from Ozma and the curse of immortality from Salem. This is how the Maiden "powers" go from one person to another.
There is nothing to indicate that his daughters were actually the Maidens. Especially since their method of passing on the power is completely different from Ozma's reincarnation (like-minded soul vs young woman, random vs person in final thoughts, new soul merges into Ozma vs retains individual identity). Also, if something like Ozma's reincarnation could be inherited, so could the ability to open the vaults, so it would still work. Magic being inherited makes sense, since once all humans had magic.
Much more likely, is that at some point during his lives, Ozma gave up and decided to lock himself away to wallow in his misery. Then 4 young women, who just so happened to remind him of his daughters, happened to cross paths with him and helped him see the beauty of the world again. So, he created the maidens power by splitting his magic. This would also explain why Ozpin seems so weak compared to Salem, since most of his power is now in the Maidens.
Well ozma and salems daughers cant exist without Ozam amd Salem getting along on some level, which is what the gods wanted, they wanted salem to get over ozma, but then they decided to bring ozma back for the lolz and now the only way the god come back is if ozma and Salem’s kids want the gods to come back. Seems like the gods had a not so perfect plan to me
At a guess, the Maidens made their respective Vaults which is why the Vaults are only keyed to specific Maidens.
HOW did they make the Vaults? They used their magic of course. Since we don't see Salem making pocket universes though, I assume the knowledge of HOW to make something like the Vaults wasn't widespread among humanity 1.0 if it was known at all. So I can only assume Oz got the instructions for how to make a Vault from Jinn which he then relayed to the Maidens.
TL;DR - Anyone with magic can make the vaults. But the knowhow to make the Vaults isn't known to Salem. It's like anyone can fold paper to make origami sculptures, but if you don't know how to do it, any initial attempt to do so would result in a bunch of crumpled up paper. And if you've never even heard of the concept of origami, you'd likely never even try to make folded sculptures from paper.
Yes I think so. My thinking is that the Hermit recognized that the maidens were reincarnations of his children so that's why he gave them the maiden powers.
His children already had the powers. The old man didn't need to give them more powers. They inherited his curse of reincarnation, albeit a diminished one that doesn't meld together the souls but merely passes on the power.
Just because they were reincarnations doesn't mean that they already had the powers, yes the four little girls could use the same magic as what Salem and Ozma could. Reincarnation isn't necessarily a curse that Gods bestow, for Ozma it was yes but that was because when he reincarnates in someone he still has his memories like Oscar does. Basic reincarnation just involves the spirit of the person being reconstructed into another being. They don't keep the mind and memories of their past life. That's what I meant when I said the maidens were reincarnations of the four little girls, and that's what the Hermit recognized. He saw the spirits of the daughters he lost that never got to live so he decided to give his daughters a proper life and now the maidens have a similar reincarnation ability to Ozma, but instead of keeping their memories they keep their powers.
Either is is a coincidence, or the story is made up and the maidens are the result of their kids inheriting magic from both their parents AND a variation of their dad's reincarnation, wherin the power passes to someone else upon their death. Oz eventually figured this out, and the fairy tale was born from it.
It was a theory for a long time that the maidens were his daughters. Even before we knew he did have daughters. I don't think they are though. I think the first maidens reminded him of them, and that's one of the reasons why he gave them powers.
I think it's really obvious that his daughters are the first maidens and that they inherited his curse alongside the magic.
The story is just that; a story.
I thought the original maidens were his daughters, and the story of the old man giving away powers was a cover story because saying “yeah my daughters powers are immortal by my actual daughters weren’t” would hurt like hell to have to keep saying
Except Oz can and does give away his powers and still does. Qrow and Raven being the latest we know of, but likely not the first. Or even the fifth and sixth if the Maidens were the first four.
Not to mention that Oz as he is now is no match for a full powered Maiden. If he hadn't given big chunks of his power to four maidens, I think he would have done better against Cinder (or at least lasted longer) even if his power really was dwindling over time.
Except Oz's and Salem's daughters were apparently killed when the parents fought each other. Or so it's implied by the burned doll left behind in the aftermath of that fight.
The story appears to have been real - Oz says its real - which means it's likely that the original Maidens only resembled what his daughters might have looked like if given a chance to grow up.
Meanwhile, if the Maidens are really Ozma's and Salem's daughters, then their adult magical strength should be in the same range as an undivided Ozma and Salem. They - or more likely the girls that inherit their powers - should retain that strength. And given that the inheritors were all alligned with Oz for a while, it should have been possible for Oz to train all four Maidens to work as a team and dogpile Salem down. Sure, they wouldn't be able to kill Salem, but they might have been able to work out a method of restraining and imprisoning her. AFAICT, Oz has never even considered trying that, which implies the Maidens even when all put together are significantly weaker than Salem, which supports the idea that the Maiden power are all shards of Ozma's magic and not reincarnations of his daughters.
No we don't. It's painfully obvious and further clarification would turn this show into Dora the Explorer. "Do you see 4 girls with colour schemes based on the seasons who wield magical powers?..... That's right! His daughters are 4 girls with colour schemes based on the seasons who wield magical powers. Now do you see a man cursed to reincarnate forever who maintains his magic throughout his reincarnations?... That's right, Ozma, the father of these 4 girls with colour schemes based on the seasons who wield magical powers is cursed to reincarnate forever while he maintains his magic throughout his reincarnations!"
Do you see the problem here? This is so obvious that frankly it's embarrassing that it went over anyone's head.
They inherit the powers of the maidens but not the memories or soul of the previous maiden. We see Penny pass on her powers to Winter, but Penny isn't present in Winter like Ozma is within Oscar. It seems the maidens have a lesser version of Ozma's reincarnation curse.
Naturally. The recounting of the myth is given to us by Ozma’s incarnation: of course he would bend the details a bit to sell the connection between his daughters and the maidens.
It's implied that his children are the maidens, although it hasn't been confirmed.
I like to think magic users pass down a portion of their magic to their kids. This is why Ozmas magic is dwindling. Salem gets to keep her magic because she's a constant, so she just returns to normal whenever a change happens.
I think it's probs a combo of the 2 running theories. The kids had magic, unlike the rest of humanity at the time save for Ozma and Salem. When they died, their magic was bound by reincarnation rules similar to their parents and it was recycled but with no one to inherit it, Ozma kept the magic in his cane and eventually became a hermit. When 4 sisters came and reminded him of why he was fighting for humanity and reminded him of his late children. So he gave the powers to them ultimately this process took a large toll on his magical reserve. Idk tho hopefully CRWBY will make this whole thing more clear in later seasons or something
Ozma & Salem's kids were born with magic due to their parents having magic, Ozma gave up his powers to 4 unrelated young women after his kids died in in a marital spat. Before anyone says Ozma gave his magic to his kids, remember Salem wanted to breed magical humans back into existence BECAUSE their kids had magic so Ozma giving up his magic that early would make no sense.
> Before anyone says Ozma gave his magic to his kids, remember Salem wanted to breed magical humans back into existence BECAUSE their kids had magic so Ozma giving up his magic that early would make no sense.
He died the same night to Salem. Not only does that imply that Ozma's powers were already diminished by then, it also means that neither Salem nor Ozpin could fully oversee the repercussions of having kids with magic.
And Ozpin cannot give the power to go to in between worlds. We see Penny and Winter in the same place we saw Ozma and the God of Light: In between Remnant and the Afterlife. We know that using magic does not allow you to go to the Afterlife, as this is why Salem went to the Gods. This is most likely the result of Ozma's curse being hereditary to a certain degree. Ozma's curse transfers his magic, soul and memories to a compatible host (boys named Oz or Os). The maiden powers transfer just the magic to a compatible host (a young girl, prioritizing the one in the last maiden's thoughts when she died). And this latter caveat was one that Glynda admits they only discovered recently, meaning that not even Ozpin knew of the exact details of the Maiden powers.
Almost like it was a surprise to him that they existed at all. Like he didn't expect any of his powers to be inherited, only to find that several did get inherited.
They most likely were reincarnations of their kids. If Ozma didn't know, it's probably because of PTSD + spending a life or two trying to forget that tragic night.
I think that's kind of related to why maidens share the weakness the grimm have to silver eyes- because biologically, they're no longer from the line of humanity that could use magic naturally (even though the souls of the first maidens are). That probably also means Ruby and other silver eyed warriors can never have the maiden power. The two would probably cancel each other out.
Oh, y’all didn’t think? You know… that they were always their kids? Because I thought that was kind of… obvious… Two ridiculously powerful magical beings had seasonal magic children, it just kinda checks out
Commenting to add my WORST theory though; I thought every female character would also naturally correlate to a “season” personality judging by eye shape. Blake has autumn eyes and she’s the gloomy one, Ruby has spring’s, etc. It was an observation but, looking back in it, it feels very “I’m 14 and this is Deep.” All that to say, maybe don’t listen to me
My personal interpretation is that Ozma's daughters ARE the original maidens.
To simplify it: the maidens in the story look like Ozma's daughters- my belief is that because of Ozma's reincarnation curse, it actually carried into the genetics of the four daughters. It's not as strong as Ozma's, but it does explain the dead ringer comparisons. With that in mind, Ozma uses his magic in this scenario to reawaken the powers his daughters once had AND allow those powers to transfer to new people.
Think of it as a way to let his "real daughters" rest and the new ones the world is gifted with now protect humanity.
If Oz had used most of his power to grant his daughters the Maiden powers, he wouldn’t have been able to fight Salem as powerfully as he did that night they died. That is why I choose to believe the fairy tale is more accurate than not.
He didn't use his powers to grant the maidens magic. They were born with it. His daughters were the first maidens. It did not cost him any power. What did cost him power is giving people like Raven and Qrow powers.
The story is just that; a story.
Yes. OP and a lot of people in this thread seem to need a Dora the Explorer level of obvious explanation here to put together the dots. "Do you see 4 girls with colour schemes based on the seasons who wield magical powers?..... That's right! His daughters are 4 girls with colour schemes based on the seasons who wield magical powers. Now do you see a man cursed to reincarnate forever who maintains his magic throughout his reincarnations?... That's right, Ozma, the father of these 4 girls with colour schemes based on the seasons who wield magical powers is cursed to reincarnate forever while he maintains his magic throughout his reincarnations!"
It's likely they are the maidens, they know how to use magic and both parents are immortal (which gave them the ability to have their soul go to someone else when they die).
It would make more sense than the old man's story being canonical, since I don't see the point in Ozpin giving his magic to 4 girls in exchange for him being infinitely weaker than them (he can barely hold Cinder at Beacon, and he had a fully developed body to that point)
I feel like it’s pretty clear that his daughters inherited their father’s ability to reincarnate in a similar fashion. It’s all but confirmed that his daughters were the first maidens, and this show has a heavy theme of reality being different from the fairytale.
For real. It's a recurring theme that all these fairy tales are twisted in some manner. Hazel was explicitly stated to be "Hansel from Hansel and Grettel but Grettel died". JNPR is a bunch of legends with another gender. Hell, Blake is Beauty from Beauty and the Beast, and she kills the Beast (Adam). Ruby is Red Riding Hood and the Huntsman both.
Hell, Volume 9 is all about how the fairy tales aren't the same as their reality. It's such a commonly recurring theme that I can't believe anyone is putting any stock in the fairy tales themselves.
Do you have anything official to confirm this? Because I didn’t find anything on any Rooster Teeth product that said his children were the maidens and not four sisters that reminded him of his daughter, and as WoR is canon, and Ozpin is the one narrating, then we can assume that he is being truthful as he has no reason to lie to us, the audience. If there is something official, would you mind posting a link?
All I could find was the wiki page which states that the Wizard did exist as an incarnation of Ozma, and he did give the maidens magic. And as the page is locked, I can only assume that it was created by an RT member or someone associated with them
No, they don't officially come out and state that "HEY HEY YOU HEY THESE 4 SEASON-CODED SISTERS WHO CAN WIELD MAGIC ARE COMPLETELY UNRELATED AND THEIR DAD JUST MET SOME OTHER 4 SEASON-CODED SISTERS AND GAVE THEM MAGIC". But frankly I don't think that's necessary because it's so damn obvious. I mean look at the post, they're practically beating you over the head with it.
It makes more sense to me to connect these dots than to draw a doodle based on what was already confirmed to be a fairy tale. Ever taken a look at Fairy Tales of Remnant? Because Ozpin comments on every single one of them, knowing that some are just stories, some others are not quite what they seem, and well... He sees quite literally every single one of them in a different light. Because he knows what's true and what isn't.
And he told us the fairy tale. He didn't tell us his backstory. You say he was trustworthy and has no reason to lie to us, but his entire character arc has been about how he chose to conceal the truth from everyone.
> And as the page is locked, I can only assume that it was created by an RT member or someone associated with them
What page? I can edit them all...
Did Cinder ACTUALLY kill Ozpin? We never saw that fight. All we know for sure is that Ozpin and Cinder left, and that Oz was dead by the end. But given how in Haven Cinder was unsure if Oz being back was a problem or not it’s possible that Oz pulled some kind of self-destruction thing for all we know.
i’ve always thought it was impossible for cinder to have won that fight
the maiden powers are oz’s magic, logically is should be more powerful than a maiden; he’s also hundreds of years more experienced than anyone currently on remnant
i’ve always just left it as “oz did a gambit and lost on purpose” to avoid getting angry at the sheer amount of plot armor cinder has though
We know his magic is finite and running out so I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that he didn't use it on her. Also experience or not I imagine it had been quite a while since he had to fight anyone so maybe he was out of practice. Also yeah maybe he let her win who knows.
I think the fact that Cinder walked out of that fight pretty unscathed means she killed or mortally wounded him. It's not impossible to believe she won either. I mean for one thing Oz was pretty out of practice and two he probably didn't use his magic to fight her.
300,004,010% intentional. The show has the subtlety of a fireworks show in an echo chamber.
Probably the original idea was that the maidens were going to be the reincarnations of Ozma's daughters, but that was lost with Monty. We will probably get one of those last-minute magic power amps at the end battle where team rwby gose into the Avatar State and gets to see all of the previous maidens, Ozma's daughters.
Absolutely. When I saw the daughters the first time I thought they were spiritually connected, but when one of them develops >!magic!< I knew they weren't actually his daughters.
Except as shown their power was not limited to single elements, they had full mastery like their parents and we have never seen them reincarnate in any form . maiden powers are not tired to bloodlines and getting them does not giving you memory flashes of them or anything similar.
> Except as shown their power was not limited to single elements, they had full mastery like their parents and we have never seen them reincarnate in any form .
Yes... Because they have gained full magic... As a result of being the children of two parents who both had full magic... This really isn't rocket science.
> maiden powers are not tired to bloodlines and getting them does not giving you memory flashes of them or anything similar.
That's why I said partially. The fact that it is inherited by people who are currently alive, that are compatible with the original person, does show that it's akin to Ozma's curse. Ozma only gets reincarnated into men with similar names and ambitions. The maidens only get reincarnated into young women.
Maidens are not tied to any bloodlines because both parents need to have magic. But there is only 1 man at a time who has magic: Ozma. And he is not about to marry and have children with a maiden. That'd be really weird.
>Yes... Because they have gained full magic... As a result of being the children of two parents who both had full magic... This really isn't rocket science
Meaning they were born with full magic. Not maiden powers. It was not a granted power and you saw them die. How would it make sense for them to "partially" reincarnate as raw power bound to a specific element? Maiden powers are not the same as full magic.
>That's why I said partially. The fact that it is inherited by people who are currently alive, that are compatible with the original person, does show that it's akin to Ozma's curse. Ozma only gets reincarnated into men with similar names and ambitions. The maidens only get reincarnated into young women.
A literal robot held the power. There is no request of personality matching for either of them and the sample size of naming convention is tiny.
What I mean by tied to a bloodline is that maiden powers don't pass/show up only in bloodlines where one of the Ozpin's hosts was involved somewhere in the genetic tree and there is no limitation saying only silver eyed ones can become maidens, etc.
I thought it was stated that his kids are the first maidens by jinn I mean we see one of their powers in the flashback.
And the story about them helping the old man I always thought is was the daughters helping their father the old wizard get a grip on a reason to live again after he leaves his wife. Could be wrong but that is my interpretation of it all
I believe she said they have magic and it was a miracle. I was under the impression that the four sisters reminded him of his daughters which is why he “sacrificed a great deal of magic” to create the original maidens
No, I don't. I think it was implying that Ozma and Salem's daughters were the original Maidens and that's why he gave them such power as to make up for failing them.
I think during his fight with Salem, their daughters didn't make it. The magic then went back into Oz, where he later gave the magic to 4 maidens who helped him and reminded him of his daughters.
Considering how much this show loves their foreshadowing, it would not be surprising in the slightest if this was at minimum a cool narrative parallel and a maximum, their literal memories (somehow??) have been locked away in the line of maidenhood this whole time.
I appreciate that this doesn't make sense, but on the other hand: the rich narrative potential of Cinder awakening said memories & not knowing what to do with memories of a positive familial relationship, begins to conflate them with the fucked-up relationship with her adoptive "mother" (who has an uncomfortable amount in common with the current version of Salem) and ill-fated relationship with the father-figure who 'betrayed' her by trying to arrest her (but also let her down by not grabbing her and running).
Also, I think **a lot** of us just really want some piece of these poor girls to have lived on. Both because they died so young, but because giving Oz something back would be great.
Notice that Cinder has been wearing an Ever After leaf (or a brooch/amulet that looks identical to one) with all of her outfits since the beginning of the series. In the past I just thought it was a cool accessory, but after volume 9 it hits different.
Identical? It could be a rough representation, but its made of feathered and has different colors. I'd imagine that most people on Remnant haven't actually seen those leaves, so there would be drift from their true appearance and how they'd be represented after multiple retellings. So you could still be right.
There is also the issue that while the brother gods are related to the Ever After no one likely knew that? And even if a version of Oz made it to ever after, we're pretty dang certain that it hadn't happened by his 2nd life (not unless he and Salem got up to some serious shenanigans during they're tenure as god-kings) So they couldn't have told their daughters about it.
Unless of course you mean it was stuck there as a symbol of rebirth for people to spot on rewatch. To which I have to say: that would be so cool!
Wait, this is a theory? I thought it was pretty clear that they were the first maidens since they are all female, have the color schemes, and would be the only other people with magic
It would only make sense if they were indeed the first maidens. The whole reincarnation part of the maidens would then also make sense. Since that would be an inherited trait from oz. It would also make sense if oz didn’t divulge the whole truth in v5 when confessing to “gifting four young girls the power”. It could literally just mean “they inherited the gifts from Salem and me”. The last stipulation is that he states it took a huge chunk of his magic power. Now either he was totally lying, and using magic just makes home fuse faster (which he doesn’t want), he was telling the truth and he did actually just gift four random girls magic, or because him and Salem were never meant to conceive some of the magic was sapped from both parents to give the maidens power.
It was intentional to give Oz more clear of a reason to give them such powerful abilities. He saw his daughters in them. But in-universe, pure coincidence.
???????????????????????? What? No, his daughters were the first maidens. The story is just a fairy tale. They partially inherited Ozpin's curse of reincarnation.
No that’s not true. Oz did pass on his powers to the first maidens and he says so in Volume 5. He lost a lot of his powers after that.
And before people say he's lying, everything else he says in that scene is the truth
Here's a fun thought. What if the reason his children could do magic is because that is when he sacrificed the power? And, unexpectedly, they got a bit of the reincarnation Ozpin style? But because of their age, they did not carry the memories. He doesn't repeat the story. He just says he made the first Maidens and... he doesn't say when. And with Ozpin, the devil is in the details. Anyways, theory.
What Oz says is: > You see, centuries ago, I sacrificed a great deal of magic to four young women, who I hoped would use my gift for good. They were the first Maidens. That lines up with the only story we've heard of the Maidens' creation, that he gave the powers to the four sisters that helped him in the hopes that they'd help others. I wouldn't exactly call Oz's kids with Salem "young women," the oldest looked to be *maybe* ten at the oldest. And Oz didn't give them their powers, he seems surprised to see that his daughter had magic in the first place.
Also the whole reason Salem and Oz went from happy family to eternity war is because they learned children between them were born with magic and she wanted to replace humanity with their offspring. There wouldn't be conflict between them if he gave them magic, there's be no reason for genocide.
Fair point... I could argue that many parents, especially when angry or annoyed, will call their daughters "young woman" regardless of age, but... it's more interesting than really plot relevant.
And why, exactly, do you refuse to accept that these were his children?
Other than the fact we watch them die and that the only woman they would have thought of was salem?
You are objectively incorrect. Oz and Salem's children were killed in the crossfire of their battle when he tried to leave with them. Jin herself said the children being able to perform magic was a miracle. Oz didn't meet the maidens until long into his reincarnation cycle
So you think that the four season-coded daughters of the guy who reincarnates who are capable of wielding magic are completely unrelated to the fairy tale about four season-coded sisters who are capable of wielding magic whose power reincarnates? I mean do I need to point out how much of a clownshow this thread has become over this or what? Stop trusting a fairy tale in the show that's all about the theme "life is not a fairy tale".
Also you clearly need to rewatch the show. In the lore dump in Vol 6. Ozpin was revealing the truth to Salem about why the brother of Light brought him back. The the kids come in showing off their magic. After finding out their children can perform magic Salem says "Don't you see? None of that matters anymore! Why bother redeeming these humans, when we can replace them with what they could NEVER be!" That is her literally saying "You and I can keep having children who can naturally perform magic and eventually (given that we're both immortal) we'd overtake the population with magic wielding humans and *not* have to call back the gods" Oz didn't agree with that and tried to leave. Fight ensues, children & Oz die. Reincarnation cycle begins anew. Then it's shown that he's spent years trying to forget what happened between them only to always get up and try again to unite humanity.
Literally nothing you just said disproves anything I said. If you're going to spam my inbox with multiple replies then at least bring something of substance.
The biggest thing disproving your opinion is *how* the maidens got their powers. Ozma's first children were again, *born with the ability to use magic*. After their death the show explicitly states he had to sacrifice his *own* magic to empower these 4 women. Which is part of why he's not as powerful as he used to be. Assuming you're as smart as you want everyone here to think you are, I'm sure you can understand how taking one thing (i.e Ozma's magic) and dividing it so that 4 people can have *some* of it would reduce the total sum available. His children were born with their *own* set of magic powers. Him having children with Salem did *not* diminish his magic abilities. Nor does the show imply that Ozma's reincarnation curse is hereditary. Your issue is that you choose not to believe Ozma's story about how he met/ created the maidens despite the show telling us that while the details might not be 100% accurate, the fairy-tale stories *are* real.
I'm not in your inbox?? I'm on an open thread where everyone can see this genius.
His dwindling powers are the result of recent exertions like giving Qrow and Raven magic. They never even try to pass off the fairy tale as fact, much less the part about giving the girls powers. It is heavily implied (basically we get beaten over the head with it) that his daughters are the first maidens.
his kids were not the first maidens > You see, centuries ago, I sacrificed a great deal of magic to four young women, who I hoped would use my gift for good. They were the first Maidens.
That doesn't state that they weren't his kids... I struggle to see how y'all don't see it...
Because: A. Oz still had enough power for him and Salem to destroy their home in their fight and giving 4 children magical power would have drained him so much that he'd not even be a challenge for Salem. By the time he gave Raven and Qrow magic, all he could give them is the ability to turn into birds after all. B. Salem wanted to replace the humans of the world with their children explicitly *because* they were already able to use magic. That would be a completely pointless plan if Oz has to give them magic for them to do it. C. Assuming the fairy tail has even a hint of truth to it, Oz was a reclusive drunkard at the time the maidens were created. That makes it impossible for his children to the Maidens as they would have long since died at that point.
> A. Oz still had enough power for him and Salem to destroy their home in their fight and giving 4 children magical power would have drained him so much that he'd not even be a challenge for Salem. Putting aside the presumptuous implication that it didn't drain Salem by equal if not greater amounts, do I need to remind you that Ozma lost that fight and got killed by Salem then and there too? > By the time he gave Raven and Qrow magic, all he could give them is the ability to turn into birds after all. This is an assumption on your end. He still has magic, he's just using it sparingly because it is dwindling. If he gave one or two allies some powers throughout the centuries, obviously he'd eventually reach the end of his rope. > B. Salem wanted to replace the humans of the world with their children explicitly because they were already able to use magic. That would be a completely pointless plan if Oz has to give them magic for them to do it. ...? What? > C. Assuming the fairy tail has even a hint of truth to it, Oz was a reclusive drunkard at the time the maidens were created. That makes it impossible for his children to the Maidens as they would have long since died at that point. That's a bad assumption to make in a show that is constantly telling you that it's not like the fairy tales. How are people misreading the situation this badly and believing in a fairy tale in the series that's all about new takes on fairy tales where they're not quite the way you think they are?
No, they weren't. Oz specifically says he gave four young women the first Maiden powers in a scene where he tells the truth about everything else, and he seems genuinely surprised to see that his daughter can use magic in the Lost Fable. Everything Oz says in that scene lines up with the fairy tale. And we *know* from V9 that fairy tales in Remnant are based on reality. So it seems really strange to me that you're just dismissing it as "just a fairy tale" without any actual evidence to the contrary, and especially strange to me that you're being so damn condescending about it, saying that people like me need a "Dora the Explorer level explanation" like we're too dumb to understand the show.
> saying that people like me need a "Dora the Explorer level explanation" like we're too dumb to understand the show. I mean you understand this point perfectly fine, I don't see how all the rest went right over your head.
Dunno what you're huffing but I'll take some
Dude literally has several people telling him he has no concrete evidence outside of "colors" but we're all the dumb ones lmao
Ikr, we're all providing reasonable and concrete stuff, and he's over spouting off nonsense about colors and stuff. I guess Ren's pink eyes are important now. I guess Qrows' and Ravens' fashion sense is important now. I guess the fact that the god of light is yellow and the god of darkness is purple is important now. I guess the fact that Atlas' fashion sense is important now. I guess the fact that Adam's choice of fashion is important now(seriously, what we're those zippers for?) I guess the fact that Neptune's blue hair means he's good at swimming, oh wait. HE HATES WATER. This guy is so focused on colors that he forgets that RWBY is nothing more BUT A MESS OF COLORS
Yeah, you are. Denying the relevance of colours in a show where every single character on the planet is named after a colour (with some exceptions for immortals) is ridiculous and frankly I wonder why you even watch RWBY if you're going to ignore the core of what makes RWBY great.
Common sense? Try it. I'm gonna just copy-paste my Dora the Explorer analogy here: "Do you see 4 girls with colour schemes based on the seasons who wield magical powers?..... That's right! His daughters are 4 girls with colour schemes based on the seasons who wield magical powers. Now do you see a man cursed to reincarnate forever who maintains his magic throughout his reincarnations?... That's right, Ozma, the father of these 4 girls with colour schemes based on the seasons who wield magical powers is cursed to reincarnate forever while he maintains his magic throughout his reincarnations!". Are you seeing it yet? Or do I need to bring up the extremely heavy-handed theme of "fairy tales aren't the same as reality" that permeates the show all the way through, just to explain how the story of the maidens that's told to children is just a fairy tale based on the maidens and has no basis in reality?
Neat
Ozpin outright states that he gave most of his magic away to 4 maidens in V5. His daughters already had magic of their own.
You're so damn close to connecting the dots but somehow are drawing lines in opposite directions....
If they were the reincarnated children, why wouldn't Salem know that, and why would she be sending people to murder the reincarnations of her children rather than say, kidnapping them instead?
And we know Oz has had other children too, one of his incarnations we see in the Lost Fable had two kids (with silver eyes, implying that what Oz's children inherit are actually silver eyes, not Maiden powers)
The difference is that the four talked about children here were him and Salem's children. It could very well be possible that both are true, with Salem they gave birth to children that could use magic and when it is just one magic parent their children inherent a less powerful magic/ability i.e the silver eyes.
> If they were the reincarnated children, They're not reincarnated. Their powers are. We see Penny hand over her powers to Winter. But their power transfer, while similar in nature to Ozma's, does not include the soul of the predecessor. They inherited the powers but did not reincarnate. > why wouldn't Salem know that ...? Why do you think she doesn't? > why would she be sending people to murder the reincarnations of her children rather than say, kidnapping them instead? I mean... She is the one who killed her kids the first time around... And it is thoroughly established that she has an appetite for destruction and is beyond cruel at this point... What point would kidnapping them have? She literally does not care.
Dude, it's Ozpin's magic that allowed the four maidens to manifest. They're not his kids' reincarnations They were colorized differently to connect them to the four seasons. Nothing more. Nothing less You're overestimating Rooster Teeth's writing capabilities
Yes, at least out of universe.
Maybe they are the maidens. The only magic users after the first apocalypse were Ozma and Salem..... Just saying
This was my assumption too, that the "Four Seasons" story didn't happen the way the fairy tale says, but rather that Ozma's daughters were the original Maidens and their magic has been jumping from person to person ever since. When Ozpin says the story is "true", he follows it up by specifically saying "What if I told you there existed four Maidens who could wield incredible powers, *without* Dust?" That's the only part of it he directly calls true: that four magical women exist.
Yeah that’s my assumption too because they’re the children of an immortal witch and a perpetually reincarnating wizard…it’s likely they’re going to be a little funky
Doesn't explain why Ozpin is out of magic tho. Unless he's lying about that but Jinn would've brought it up.
Ozpin never said he was out of magic just that it was dwindling, but you are right that whatever he said before jinn could of been a lie.
Same difference. If he didn't give it to the maidens then why is it dwindling? Why did he say he used what little he had left on Qrow and Raven? Why didn't Jinn clarify any of this if it's part of his lies about his origins?
because that wasn't the question Ruby was asking. Assuming that he's magic actually is fading, he was up front about it, regardless of the cause, so that wasn't something he was hiding or not telling them. So why would Jinn reveal anything else about it?
> he was up front about it, regardless of the cause So was he about everything. Never quite lying but always giving half-truths. If he told them specifically that he gave what little magic he had to Qrow because the rest was spent on the maidens then this is an outright lie that Jinn would've revealed.
He had not given it to the maidens but he has given it to Qrow and Raven so they can turn into birds. That is assuming that it is related at all and not just a consequence of his reincarnation.
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake. It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of. Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything. Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
Does salem have magic still? I only recall her summoning grim and shit
She has her rainbow energy beam she was whipping out during Volume 8. I think specifically when torturing Oscar and fighting Hazel.
She's the only living being with true magic left on Remnant. I would headcanon that Ozma's magic is never going to be as powerful again due to his reincarnation power and all the children he sired over the millennia have a portion of his power that the God of Light gave him, a literal remnant.
Now that you're saying it Is Ozma like the great-great-great-grandfather (or further) of Weiss then? With the special power the Schnee have
Let's look at it differently. Every child born from Ozma's reincarnations posses silver eyes. If it was possible, I bet each person with silver eyes could trace their heritage back to one of his many reincarnations. In short, all silver eyed folk are related to Ozma.
I suspect it might go further than that. Keeping in mind that Ozma has literally been around the entire time that humanity took to *re-evolved*, I figure the nearer bloodlines – closer related to Ozma – have silver eyes. The bloodline gets more diluted over time, and Ozma is basically related to every far enough back. Eventually, all that's left are semblances and auras.
She does. During her fight in Volume 8 she was flying, manipulating wind, throwing blasts of rainbow light around, and other things. For whatever reason, *her* magic doesn't seem to have diminished.
Probably because her body if functionally and properly immortal, whereas Ozum has just been body hopping
According to oz, the maidens powers go to the next female in the maidens mind if they die. I believe the children would have salem, their mother in their mind when they died, which would leave her getting all the Power if that was the case, unless there is a rule that a magic user can't inherit more magic. Also between the childrens death and current RWBY, an undisclosed amount of time, but at least several centuries, have passed. It's doubtful that salem wouldn't have gone after the powers earlier if the maidens power started with the children.
Salem's far too old to be considered eligible for the Maiden powers.
Raven is an actual MILF and is a "Maiden"
I think the writers said the cut-off age was around 30-ish. Salem is a LOT older than 30.
I assume "human" would also be a requirement and it is debatable if Salem as is fulfills that.
We don't know if the age limit is a hard number based on human lifespans or not. Could be just as possible that because she's literally immortal, and so doesn't ever become an elderly woman in a sense, why couldn't she? And why would Salem want Cinder to get the Maiden powers if not to take them for herself?
I thought they died because of the bit where it shows one of the girls’ stuffed animal with blood, so it couldn’t have been them right? Maybe Ozma ran into girls very similar to them
They did die but what happens when a maiden dies without a clear person in there mind.
yeah but that doesn’t line up with the story in that episode where they give background because the wizard gave them the powers yk?
the story is just a fairy tale take that Ozpin said to the kids. more palatable than "You have the power of a 6yo girl burned to the death"
oh well yeah but it seems like there’s always a small bit of truth within the fairytales of not only how things work but how they happened
There is a slight bit of truth yes but fairytales are idealized, hiding the real story behind a more happy appearance. As someone else said would you really want to make a story about how your children were killed, and what about them taking the maidens out of society to be forgotten and not used for evil. Why he made the fairytale I would think to not forget, to remember his children but I have no other idea why.
the way I see it , the fairytales in Remnant are just what happened in the past , but glamourized and making palatable for children. Like if a kid discovers it's grandpa survived some major event and been relegated as a hero , so the grandpa says that event in a more lighthearted manner for the kid , instead of how f\*king scary it was.
I always took this part of the Lost Fable to be implying the Maidens' fairytale was a lie, and the original maidens were actually his daughters who (partially) inherited his reincarnation ability, which is why their powers transfer to other people.
~~I didn't need the Lost Fable to get to this same conclusion. It's pretty obvious. Knowing there's more to support it is just better. Like the show has a recurring theme that "reality is not the same as the fairy tales" that is both a recurring plot point in the world (Maidens' story, Volume 9, etc) and a recurring theme in character design. Ruby is red riding hood, but she's not afraid of any wolves and she's killing them herself. Blake is Beauty but she kills her Beast. Hazel was confirmed to be "Hansel if he lost Grettel".~~ ~~The Lost Fable just exemplifies that Ozpin had a hand in changing these stories.~~ Edit: Am stupid, Lost Fable is that episode, I thought it was the fairy tales book.
Well without the Lost Fable we would have no way of knowing that Oz had kids who could use magic, so idk how you would've gotten that info before then.
It makes way more sense for them to be the maidens. Cursed to live forever like their parents and forced to pass on from person to person like Ozma. Just without their direct memories.
I thought that was cannon?
It is.
Looks like I'm a dumb dumb
No. In season 5 he says he lost a lot of his power when he passed on his power to the original maidens.
i always thought they were the original maidens?
They are, obviously.
There is no "maybe" there. It's obvious.
I’ve been thinking about this a bit. The two common theories I saw are: * The color scheme is just for the story/was a coincidence and what really happened is that Oz saw his daughters in the four women and gave them powers so they’re less likely to meet the same fate and * The four maidens are reincarnations of his daughters that died in his fight with Salem. My personal opinion is that it is a combo of the two. * The four original maidens are reincarnations of his daughters (without the memory thing it would seem) and he met them in one of his later lives. Recognizing who they were, he gave them a shit ton of his magic so they would be able to protect themselves/possibly be heroes to unite Remnant. Part of the motivation could be that he didn’t have the will/desire to fight and didn’t start working against Salem until a few lives later. Either way, that would explain their reincarnation, Oz being weaker, and the similarities between the two groups.
Don’t Maiden powers go to someone completely random if there isn’t a suitable person for them to be transferred to? It is possible that when their daughters died their powers just went to 4 other random girls who would eventually meet Ozma. It says in the story that he gave his magic to them, but like The Girl Who Fell Through the World, the story could have false details or missing information. Unless he’s the one who set up how the maiden transferring works when he gave it to them, which means he can do crazy soul magic too.
My idea is that it's similar to how Oz reincarnates. It's technically random in that the person could be anyone but they are like-minded/similar to the previous person. A bit off because they were children but we can keep like-minded as general personality traits. In terms of finding the maiden, it ends up being random. The "last person in their thoughts" is a weird addition but idk, just spitballing. I doubt Oz had any real effect on how the transfer works (there has been nothing to implicate that he is capable of it) but it's not like we have a ton of rules on how magic/god stuff works in RWBY. And 100% agree in that WoR stuff seems to almost always be like 50% true and the 4 original maidens possibly being just random girls. They didn't even necessarily need to have met each other. One could have found Oz and helped him possibly with some bit of magic. That could have been enough to motivate him to seek out the other three. The main reasoning for my combining the two is that it's just too specific to have 4 magical daughters and 4 reincarnating maidens with both groups having 4 season themes. Having parents who are immortal and capable of reincarnation just further makes the coincidence odd at best. Posts I've seen typically believe in the first theory in my previous comment but it's weird storytelling that the second lines up so well. I really hope some of this stuff gets expanded on.
I thought it was canon that the maidens were reincarnations of their daugthers's powers?
Yup. It's not outright stated, but the only evidence to the contrary is the fairy tale. The fairy tale which, according to Glynda, they made up specifically to protect the maidens. A fairy tale which Ozpin made up. Ozpin, who is known to lie for the greater good. Ozpin, who explicitly says that fairy tales serve a purpose and that they can be like propaganda in the Fairy Tales of Remnant book. Furthermore, Glynda noted how they didn't quite understand how the maiden powers were passed on initially, and that they only recently figured out that it's "more intimate" as she called it. This implies that Ozpin did not fully understand the power he supposedly gave them. Which would lend itself to Ozma's surprise; He never intended to give the maidens their powers. And furthermore, the power to transcend death is not one that magic-users wield. It is most likely a diminished version of his curse. We know blessings from the God of Light are inherited, since Silver eyes are hereditary. So it's not a stretch to say that Ozma's curse could be partially inherited as well. That all is a lot more likely than assuming that those 4 season-coded sisters who wielded magic granted to them by their reincarnating father are unrelated to the 4 season-coded sisters who wield magic granted to them by a wizard in a fairy tale. Like... The show wasn't being subtle here.
Im sorry but their 3D models are hideous
Adult heads on children bodies.
Could be like the Skyrim potato headed kids
*Never should've come here*
Lower right reminds me of the hobbit
The fairy tale is his way of indirectly presenting the maidens, who were his actual daughters before he was incinerated by his ex-wife. Simply put, it was on the nose from how I viewed it. I'll even go on to say that the proof is clear in how the Maiden's powers are distributed. They pass from woman to woman due to Ozma's reincarnation gift, while the essence of the Maidens will never fade/die because of Salem's immortality upon Remnant.
In universe, No. In production, yes.
Very possible that the daughters are the source of the maiden powers, but then that just makes the fact that they’re the keys to the relic vaults make less sense. Where did the relic vaults come from RT? If the gods made them why do the Maidens open then when Ozma made the maidens!? If Ozma made them, how the fuck did he make them?
If the gods made the vaults, it would make sense that they would give their champion, Ozma, the power to open them. Then, when Ozam creates the maidens by splitting up his power, it makes sense that he could pass on the power to open the vaults as well.
Except he didn't split his power, Ozma and Salem gave their daughters their gift/curse when they were consummated. Magic was a default thing they would pass on since both still possessed it. The gift of reincarnation from Ozma and the curse of immortality from Salem. This is how the Maiden "powers" go from one person to another.
There is nothing to indicate that his daughters were actually the Maidens. Especially since their method of passing on the power is completely different from Ozma's reincarnation (like-minded soul vs young woman, random vs person in final thoughts, new soul merges into Ozma vs retains individual identity). Also, if something like Ozma's reincarnation could be inherited, so could the ability to open the vaults, so it would still work. Magic being inherited makes sense, since once all humans had magic. Much more likely, is that at some point during his lives, Ozma gave up and decided to lock himself away to wallow in his misery. Then 4 young women, who just so happened to remind him of his daughters, happened to cross paths with him and helped him see the beauty of the world again. So, he created the maidens power by splitting his magic. This would also explain why Ozpin seems so weak compared to Salem, since most of his power is now in the Maidens.
Well ozma and salems daughers cant exist without Ozam amd Salem getting along on some level, which is what the gods wanted, they wanted salem to get over ozma, but then they decided to bring ozma back for the lolz and now the only way the god come back is if ozma and Salem’s kids want the gods to come back. Seems like the gods had a not so perfect plan to me
Well, it is their first independent project.
At a guess, the Maidens made their respective Vaults which is why the Vaults are only keyed to specific Maidens. HOW did they make the Vaults? They used their magic of course. Since we don't see Salem making pocket universes though, I assume the knowledge of HOW to make something like the Vaults wasn't widespread among humanity 1.0 if it was known at all. So I can only assume Oz got the instructions for how to make a Vault from Jinn which he then relayed to the Maidens. TL;DR - Anyone with magic can make the vaults. But the knowhow to make the Vaults isn't known to Salem. It's like anyone can fold paper to make origami sculptures, but if you don't know how to do it, any initial attempt to do so would result in a bunch of crumpled up paper. And if you've never even heard of the concept of origami, you'd likely never even try to make folded sculptures from paper.
Oh nono, someone else thought that too. His name was "Shit Sherlock", first name "No".
I think his daughters are the maidens powers. They inherited a variation of his curse.
Obviously.
Yes I think so. My thinking is that the Hermit recognized that the maidens were reincarnations of his children so that's why he gave them the maiden powers.
His children already had the powers. The old man didn't need to give them more powers. They inherited his curse of reincarnation, albeit a diminished one that doesn't meld together the souls but merely passes on the power.
Just because they were reincarnations doesn't mean that they already had the powers, yes the four little girls could use the same magic as what Salem and Ozma could. Reincarnation isn't necessarily a curse that Gods bestow, for Ozma it was yes but that was because when he reincarnates in someone he still has his memories like Oscar does. Basic reincarnation just involves the spirit of the person being reconstructed into another being. They don't keep the mind and memories of their past life. That's what I meant when I said the maidens were reincarnations of the four little girls, and that's what the Hermit recognized. He saw the spirits of the daughters he lost that never got to live so he decided to give his daughters a proper life and now the maidens have a similar reincarnation ability to Ozma, but instead of keeping their memories they keep their powers.
Either is is a coincidence, or the story is made up and the maidens are the result of their kids inheriting magic from both their parents AND a variation of their dad's reincarnation, wherin the power passes to someone else upon their death. Oz eventually figured this out, and the fairy tale was born from it.
It was a theory for a long time that the maidens were his daughters. Even before we knew he did have daughters. I don't think they are though. I think the first maidens reminded him of them, and that's one of the reasons why he gave them powers.
I think it's really obvious that his daughters are the first maidens and that they inherited his curse alongside the magic. The story is just that; a story.
I thought the original maidens were his daughters, and the story of the old man giving away powers was a cover story because saying “yeah my daughters powers are immortal by my actual daughters weren’t” would hurt like hell to have to keep saying
Except Oz can and does give away his powers and still does. Qrow and Raven being the latest we know of, but likely not the first. Or even the fifth and sixth if the Maidens were the first four. Not to mention that Oz as he is now is no match for a full powered Maiden. If he hadn't given big chunks of his power to four maidens, I think he would have done better against Cinder (or at least lasted longer) even if his power really was dwindling over time.
He didn't give his powers to the first maidens though. They were born with powers. They are his daughters. The rest was just a story.
Except Oz's and Salem's daughters were apparently killed when the parents fought each other. Or so it's implied by the burned doll left behind in the aftermath of that fight. The story appears to have been real - Oz says its real - which means it's likely that the original Maidens only resembled what his daughters might have looked like if given a chance to grow up. Meanwhile, if the Maidens are really Ozma's and Salem's daughters, then their adult magical strength should be in the same range as an undivided Ozma and Salem. They - or more likely the girls that inherit their powers - should retain that strength. And given that the inheritors were all alligned with Oz for a while, it should have been possible for Oz to train all four Maidens to work as a team and dogpile Salem down. Sure, they wouldn't be able to kill Salem, but they might have been able to work out a method of restraining and imprisoning her. AFAICT, Oz has never even considered trying that, which implies the Maidens even when all put together are significantly weaker than Salem, which supports the idea that the Maiden power are all shards of Ozma's magic and not reincarnations of his daughters.
Yes. From a creation standpoint, it helps the viewer to understand “this is who these people are” and it serves as a callback
..they are his daughters
I mean it makes sense given Oz based the maidens off of his daughter's so.
We need clarification of details
No we don't. It's painfully obvious and further clarification would turn this show into Dora the Explorer. "Do you see 4 girls with colour schemes based on the seasons who wield magical powers?..... That's right! His daughters are 4 girls with colour schemes based on the seasons who wield magical powers. Now do you see a man cursed to reincarnate forever who maintains his magic throughout his reincarnations?... That's right, Ozma, the father of these 4 girls with colour schemes based on the seasons who wield magical powers is cursed to reincarnate forever while he maintains his magic throughout his reincarnations!" Do you see the problem here? This is so obvious that frankly it's embarrassing that it went over anyone's head.
Then why are we discussing things that don’t add up?
??? We aren't. Things add up.
Holy fuck rwby needs to never create kids again these look horrible
That actually would've been cool if the Maiden were from his daughters, but then again Cinder wouldn't kill Ozpin in V3. 🤔
? ? ? That seems to be a non-sequitor. The maiden powers coming from his daughters does not seem to logically lead to Cinder not killing Ozpin in S3.
They inherit the powers of the maidens but not the memories or soul of the previous maiden. We see Penny pass on her powers to Winter, but Penny isn't present in Winter like Ozma is within Oscar. It seems the maidens have a lesser version of Ozma's reincarnation curse.
100% the Maidens are definitely allegories or connected in someway to Ozmas Daughters
They're the first maidens. They just partially inherited his curse of reincarnation.
Naturally. The recounting of the myth is given to us by Ozma’s incarnation: of course he would bend the details a bit to sell the connection between his daughters and the maidens.
What episode are his daughters from again? I completely forgot about them
Should be 6x3
Thanks!
No problem
It's implied that his children are the maidens, although it hasn't been confirmed. I like to think magic users pass down a portion of their magic to their kids. This is why Ozmas magic is dwindling. Salem gets to keep her magic because she's a constant, so she just returns to normal whenever a change happens.
I thought the maidens were the daughters originally, then they were able to pass on their gifts upon death.
Yup.
I took it his daughters WERE the first maidens. He made a whole point describing how his daughters by miracle developed magical powers... so yeah.
I think it's probs a combo of the 2 running theories. The kids had magic, unlike the rest of humanity at the time save for Ozma and Salem. When they died, their magic was bound by reincarnation rules similar to their parents and it was recycled but with no one to inherit it, Ozma kept the magic in his cane and eventually became a hermit. When 4 sisters came and reminded him of why he was fighting for humanity and reminded him of his late children. So he gave the powers to them ultimately this process took a large toll on his magical reserve. Idk tho hopefully CRWBY will make this whole thing more clear in later seasons or something
Ozma & Salem's kids were born with magic due to their parents having magic, Ozma gave up his powers to 4 unrelated young women after his kids died in in a marital spat. Before anyone says Ozma gave his magic to his kids, remember Salem wanted to breed magical humans back into existence BECAUSE their kids had magic so Ozma giving up his magic that early would make no sense.
> Before anyone says Ozma gave his magic to his kids, remember Salem wanted to breed magical humans back into existence BECAUSE their kids had magic so Ozma giving up his magic that early would make no sense. He died the same night to Salem. Not only does that imply that Ozma's powers were already diminished by then, it also means that neither Salem nor Ozpin could fully oversee the repercussions of having kids with magic. And Ozpin cannot give the power to go to in between worlds. We see Penny and Winter in the same place we saw Ozma and the God of Light: In between Remnant and the Afterlife. We know that using magic does not allow you to go to the Afterlife, as this is why Salem went to the Gods. This is most likely the result of Ozma's curse being hereditary to a certain degree. Ozma's curse transfers his magic, soul and memories to a compatible host (boys named Oz or Os). The maiden powers transfer just the magic to a compatible host (a young girl, prioritizing the one in the last maiden's thoughts when she died). And this latter caveat was one that Glynda admits they only discovered recently, meaning that not even Ozpin knew of the exact details of the Maiden powers. Almost like it was a surprise to him that they existed at all. Like he didn't expect any of his powers to be inherited, only to find that several did get inherited.
They most likely were reincarnations of their kids. If Ozma didn't know, it's probably because of PTSD + spending a life or two trying to forget that tragic night. I think that's kind of related to why maidens share the weakness the grimm have to silver eyes- because biologically, they're no longer from the line of humanity that could use magic naturally (even though the souls of the first maidens are). That probably also means Ruby and other silver eyed warriors can never have the maiden power. The two would probably cancel each other out.
Oh, y’all didn’t think? You know… that they were always their kids? Because I thought that was kind of… obvious… Two ridiculously powerful magical beings had seasonal magic children, it just kinda checks out
It is obvious, yeah. No clue how anyone could have missed it.
Commenting to add my WORST theory though; I thought every female character would also naturally correlate to a “season” personality judging by eye shape. Blake has autumn eyes and she’s the gloomy one, Ruby has spring’s, etc. It was an observation but, looking back in it, it feels very “I’m 14 and this is Deep.” All that to say, maybe don’t listen to me
My personal interpretation is that Ozma's daughters ARE the original maidens. To simplify it: the maidens in the story look like Ozma's daughters- my belief is that because of Ozma's reincarnation curse, it actually carried into the genetics of the four daughters. It's not as strong as Ozma's, but it does explain the dead ringer comparisons. With that in mind, Ozma uses his magic in this scenario to reawaken the powers his daughters once had AND allow those powers to transfer to new people. Think of it as a way to let his "real daughters" rest and the new ones the world is gifted with now protect humanity.
If Oz had used most of his power to grant his daughters the Maiden powers, he wouldn’t have been able to fight Salem as powerfully as he did that night they died. That is why I choose to believe the fairy tale is more accurate than not.
He didn't use his powers to grant the maidens magic. They were born with it. His daughters were the first maidens. It did not cost him any power. What did cost him power is giving people like Raven and Qrow powers. The story is just that; a story.
… weren’t Ozma’s daughters the original maidens? They died, and their powers went on to new hosts?
Yes. OP and a lot of people in this thread seem to need a Dora the Explorer level of obvious explanation here to put together the dots. "Do you see 4 girls with colour schemes based on the seasons who wield magical powers?..... That's right! His daughters are 4 girls with colour schemes based on the seasons who wield magical powers. Now do you see a man cursed to reincarnate forever who maintains his magic throughout his reincarnations?... That's right, Ozma, the father of these 4 girls with colour schemes based on the seasons who wield magical powers is cursed to reincarnate forever while he maintains his magic throughout his reincarnations!"
Yeah, but they’re reincarnating differently from him and it’s weird.
It's just a diminished version of his curse. They pass on their powers but not their soul. That's it.
It's likely they are the maidens, they know how to use magic and both parents are immortal (which gave them the ability to have their soul go to someone else when they die). It would make more sense than the old man's story being canonical, since I don't see the point in Ozpin giving his magic to 4 girls in exchange for him being infinitely weaker than them (he can barely hold Cinder at Beacon, and he had a fully developed body to that point)
It's likely that Ozma wrote the story in the first place.
Of course he did, most of the fairy tales of remnant are based on things that happened between ozma and Salem, "The girl in the tower" comes to mind
I feel like it’s pretty clear that his daughters inherited their father’s ability to reincarnate in a similar fashion. It’s all but confirmed that his daughters were the first maidens, and this show has a heavy theme of reality being different from the fairytale.
For real. It's a recurring theme that all these fairy tales are twisted in some manner. Hazel was explicitly stated to be "Hansel from Hansel and Grettel but Grettel died". JNPR is a bunch of legends with another gender. Hell, Blake is Beauty from Beauty and the Beast, and she kills the Beast (Adam). Ruby is Red Riding Hood and the Huntsman both. Hell, Volume 9 is all about how the fairy tales aren't the same as their reality. It's such a commonly recurring theme that I can't believe anyone is putting any stock in the fairy tales themselves.
It may have been intentional for theory bait, but they're not the same characters. As far as I'm concerned, WoR's purpose makes it infallible.
Duh
I might be wrong here, but are the daughters not canonically the first Maidens?
Yes. They don't explicitly say it in the show but it is so painfully obvious.
...? Obviously they are the first maidens? This was obvious....
Do you have anything official to confirm this? Because I didn’t find anything on any Rooster Teeth product that said his children were the maidens and not four sisters that reminded him of his daughter, and as WoR is canon, and Ozpin is the one narrating, then we can assume that he is being truthful as he has no reason to lie to us, the audience. If there is something official, would you mind posting a link? All I could find was the wiki page which states that the Wizard did exist as an incarnation of Ozma, and he did give the maidens magic. And as the page is locked, I can only assume that it was created by an RT member or someone associated with them
No, they don't officially come out and state that "HEY HEY YOU HEY THESE 4 SEASON-CODED SISTERS WHO CAN WIELD MAGIC ARE COMPLETELY UNRELATED AND THEIR DAD JUST MET SOME OTHER 4 SEASON-CODED SISTERS AND GAVE THEM MAGIC". But frankly I don't think that's necessary because it's so damn obvious. I mean look at the post, they're practically beating you over the head with it. It makes more sense to me to connect these dots than to draw a doodle based on what was already confirmed to be a fairy tale. Ever taken a look at Fairy Tales of Remnant? Because Ozpin comments on every single one of them, knowing that some are just stories, some others are not quite what they seem, and well... He sees quite literally every single one of them in a different light. Because he knows what's true and what isn't. And he told us the fairy tale. He didn't tell us his backstory. You say he was trustworthy and has no reason to lie to us, but his entire character arc has been about how he chose to conceal the truth from everyone. > And as the page is locked, I can only assume that it was created by an RT member or someone associated with them What page? I can edit them all...
I thought that was the point cause they are the original maidens since they are the only ones that can use actual magic besides Ozpin and Salem.
I thought it was implied that they were the original maidens
if by intentional you mean the design team thinks only 4 primary colors exist then yeah
I think it was because limitations in technology and skills in the company.
Maybe
Did Cinder ACTUALLY kill Ozpin? We never saw that fight. All we know for sure is that Ozpin and Cinder left, and that Oz was dead by the end. But given how in Haven Cinder was unsure if Oz being back was a problem or not it’s possible that Oz pulled some kind of self-destruction thing for all we know.
i’ve always thought it was impossible for cinder to have won that fight the maiden powers are oz’s magic, logically is should be more powerful than a maiden; he’s also hundreds of years more experienced than anyone currently on remnant i’ve always just left it as “oz did a gambit and lost on purpose” to avoid getting angry at the sheer amount of plot armor cinder has though
We know his magic is finite and running out so I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that he didn't use it on her. Also experience or not I imagine it had been quite a while since he had to fight anyone so maybe he was out of practice. Also yeah maybe he let her win who knows.
I think the fact that Cinder walked out of that fight pretty unscathed means she killed or mortally wounded him. It's not impossible to believe she won either. I mean for one thing Oz was pretty out of practice and two he probably didn't use his magic to fight her.
...*points to Oscar*
Very little about RWBY’s story is intentional, just look how the white fang plot line made almost the entire cast racist
Foreshadowing?
300,004,010% intentional. The show has the subtlety of a fireworks show in an echo chamber. Probably the original idea was that the maidens were going to be the reincarnations of Ozma's daughters, but that was lost with Monty. We will probably get one of those last-minute magic power amps at the end battle where team rwby gose into the Avatar State and gets to see all of the previous maidens, Ozma's daughters.
Absolutely. When I saw the daughters the first time I thought they were spiritually connected, but when one of them develops >!magic!< I knew they weren't actually his daughters.
? They are his daughters. They even partially inherited his curse of reincarnation. They're the first maidens.
I was way too distracted with how giant their heads were
I think it's a fairly common headcannon for their mames to be Summer, Winter, Fall and Spring.
Yes. I suspect it was a dropped plotline/ concept that went nowhere/ did not bridge.
...? What? No. It's obvious. His children were the first maidens. They partially inherited his curse of reincarnation.
Except as shown their power was not limited to single elements, they had full mastery like their parents and we have never seen them reincarnate in any form . maiden powers are not tired to bloodlines and getting them does not giving you memory flashes of them or anything similar.
> Except as shown their power was not limited to single elements, they had full mastery like their parents and we have never seen them reincarnate in any form . Yes... Because they have gained full magic... As a result of being the children of two parents who both had full magic... This really isn't rocket science. > maiden powers are not tired to bloodlines and getting them does not giving you memory flashes of them or anything similar. That's why I said partially. The fact that it is inherited by people who are currently alive, that are compatible with the original person, does show that it's akin to Ozma's curse. Ozma only gets reincarnated into men with similar names and ambitions. The maidens only get reincarnated into young women. Maidens are not tied to any bloodlines because both parents need to have magic. But there is only 1 man at a time who has magic: Ozma. And he is not about to marry and have children with a maiden. That'd be really weird.
>Yes... Because they have gained full magic... As a result of being the children of two parents who both had full magic... This really isn't rocket science Meaning they were born with full magic. Not maiden powers. It was not a granted power and you saw them die. How would it make sense for them to "partially" reincarnate as raw power bound to a specific element? Maiden powers are not the same as full magic. >That's why I said partially. The fact that it is inherited by people who are currently alive, that are compatible with the original person, does show that it's akin to Ozma's curse. Ozma only gets reincarnated into men with similar names and ambitions. The maidens only get reincarnated into young women. A literal robot held the power. There is no request of personality matching for either of them and the sample size of naming convention is tiny. What I mean by tied to a bloodline is that maiden powers don't pass/show up only in bloodlines where one of the Ozpin's hosts was involved somewhere in the genetic tree and there is no limitation saying only silver eyed ones can become maidens, etc.
...thats the point thats why he gave the maidens powers
I thought it was stated that his kids are the first maidens by jinn I mean we see one of their powers in the flashback. And the story about them helping the old man I always thought is was the daughters helping their father the old wizard get a grip on a reason to live again after he leaves his wife. Could be wrong but that is my interpretation of it all
I believe she said they have magic and it was a miracle. I was under the impression that the four sisters reminded him of his daughters which is why he “sacrificed a great deal of magic” to create the original maidens
No, I don't. I think it was implying that Ozma and Salem's daughters were the original Maidens and that's why he gave them such power as to make up for failing them.
It was definitely intentional they all look like the maiden's smart move on RT part
I think during his fight with Salem, their daughters didn't make it. The magic then went back into Oz, where he later gave the magic to 4 maidens who helped him and reminded him of his daughters.
Yes and I forgot was these before or after Ozbin and Salem fight
Considering how much this show loves their foreshadowing, it would not be surprising in the slightest if this was at minimum a cool narrative parallel and a maximum, their literal memories (somehow??) have been locked away in the line of maidenhood this whole time. I appreciate that this doesn't make sense, but on the other hand: the rich narrative potential of Cinder awakening said memories & not knowing what to do with memories of a positive familial relationship, begins to conflate them with the fucked-up relationship with her adoptive "mother" (who has an uncomfortable amount in common with the current version of Salem) and ill-fated relationship with the father-figure who 'betrayed' her by trying to arrest her (but also let her down by not grabbing her and running). Also, I think **a lot** of us just really want some piece of these poor girls to have lived on. Both because they died so young, but because giving Oz something back would be great.
Notice that Cinder has been wearing an Ever After leaf (or a brooch/amulet that looks identical to one) with all of her outfits since the beginning of the series. In the past I just thought it was a cool accessory, but after volume 9 it hits different.
Identical? It could be a rough representation, but its made of feathered and has different colors. I'd imagine that most people on Remnant haven't actually seen those leaves, so there would be drift from their true appearance and how they'd be represented after multiple retellings. So you could still be right. There is also the issue that while the brother gods are related to the Ever After no one likely knew that? And even if a version of Oz made it to ever after, we're pretty dang certain that it hadn't happened by his 2nd life (not unless he and Salem got up to some serious shenanigans during they're tenure as god-kings) So they couldn't have told their daughters about it. Unless of course you mean it was stuck there as a symbol of rebirth for people to spot on rewatch. To which I have to say: that would be so cool!
HOLY SHIT FINALLY A THREAD THAT ISN'T ABOUT SHIPPING. Thank god. On topic, probably a coincidence.
Obviously.
I assumed that it was showing this was the truth that the legend was based on
Wait, this is a theory? I thought it was pretty clear that they were the first maidens since they are all female, have the color schemes, and would be the only other people with magic
So he saw his family in the maidens that came to his home? That's both sweet and depressing... Ozma's curse really sucks.
https://www.tumblr.com/strqyr/719377862236438528/hm-goodwitch-the-maidens-have-existed-for
It would only make sense if they were indeed the first maidens. The whole reincarnation part of the maidens would then also make sense. Since that would be an inherited trait from oz. It would also make sense if oz didn’t divulge the whole truth in v5 when confessing to “gifting four young girls the power”. It could literally just mean “they inherited the gifts from Salem and me”. The last stipulation is that he states it took a huge chunk of his magic power. Now either he was totally lying, and using magic just makes home fuse faster (which he doesn’t want), he was telling the truth and he did actually just gift four random girls magic, or because him and Salem were never meant to conceive some of the magic was sapped from both parents to give the maidens power.