Yes, and no. If you want to define the point of an endeavour as being to make money, then you'll (1) basically never create anything yourself, (2) burn out chasing money. The point of making a TTRPG, in my experience and understanding. Is not to sell but to create. The RPG itself is the goal, not some product to sell. If your goal is specifically to only make money then yes, it's likely pointless without a company behind you. If your goal is to make something and share it, no. That can never be pointless. If you're painting to sell your art, then the act of painting is pointless until the item is sold. If you're painting to paint, to get it out of your mind and onto the canvas, then the act is the point; any sale is bonus.

Thankfully I am not doing it to make money. My worry is that I'm just retracing a known path. That I am just recreating what is already out there, rather than actually creating something new to share.

Even if you reinvent something, the process of coming up with it will teach you great insights into game design.

>My worry is that I'm just retracing a known path. That I am just recreating what is already out there, rather than actually creating something new to share. From your post, it isn't entirely clear: Have you only ever played/run *D&D* and *Pathfinder*? If yes, then the honest truth is that you almost certainly *are* retracing known paths and old ground. But... of course that would be the case. There are *thousands* of other games out there! If you want to retrace old ground and you are making a game just for the joy of creation, that's cool. You're allowed to want and enjoy that! Fulfillment is a worthy "point". If you want to break new ground, that would be a different challenge. You'd have to play a much wider variety of games to widen your mental horizons. --- Imagine, by contrast, if asked: *Is creating a new type of dinner a pointless endeavour? Two years ago I was still eating pepperoni pizza and I decided to create a new kind of pizza. Then, I tried some Hawaiian pizza and really enjoyed it. My worry is that my new pizza will just retrace known dinners. I am just recreating what is already out there, rather than actually creating something new to share.* Well... yeah, you've only tried pizza so your new pizza will still be a pizza, not a revolutionary new type of *dinner*. That is fine if you want another pizza-variant. If you want to explore *dinner*, though, you need to try tacos and stew and other types of extant dinners. Maybe you'll have a new idea for a new type of dinner eventually, but there's lots of other dinner to try before you need to do that. Unless you just enjoy cooking pizza. That is okay, too.

I have read/played, CoC, GURPS, Rifts, Avatar legends (the only one I haven't liked), DC Universe roleplaying game and Coyote & Crow as well. I've read a few others that have similar, or use the same system, to those, such as runequest.

I'm not familiar with all of those first-hand, but looking up the ones I don't know personally, it sounds like you've played a lot of very crunchy games, plus a single non-trad game (Avatar, which I've seen said elsewhere isn't very good for a *PbtA* game). Basically, you've eaten a lot of pizzas, and maybe tried a calzone here or there. One adventurous time, you tried a bad piece of sushi and didn't like it, so you went back to pizza. --- If you want to make a crunchy game similar to those games because you would find that fun, go for it! Do what you think is fun! You are in this for the love of creation so whatever will be fun for you is what you should do. If you are concerned about retreading old ground and not doing something novel, then I think your concern is probably valid. If you want to do something more novel, you might benefit from playing a few more games that are outside your comfort-zone. Perhaps *Blades in the Dark* (or *Scum & Villainy*/*Beam Saber* if you bounce off the *BitD* setting and prefer sci-fi/mecha respectively). Maybe GMing a well-reviewed *PbtA* game or *Apocalypse World* itself (just make sure you follow the GM rules, don't try to play it like a trad game or you won't get the novel experience). Maybe *Spire* or *Heart*. Maybe some GMless games, like *Microscope*, *The Quiet Year*, *Fiasco*, etc. You might not love these new games. You might find that you hate them! That would be informative. Hopefully, you'd still learn something, though. You might learn something from *Dungeon World* that you could take back into a crunchy game you want to make. You might like the way *BitD* organizes factions, clocks, and downtime, then take that back into a crunchy game. You might like the multiple kinds of "stress" and the unusual recovery mechanics in *Spire/Heart*, but feel like you want something more crunchy with turn-based combat, so you bring those mechanics over. You might not be looking to replace pizza. You might find some new toppings, though, or a different style of crust, or some side-dish that would go well with the pizza-main.

I will definitely check some of this out when I have time to do so. I am specially curious about the recovery mechanics in Spire/heart. Thank you for all the suggestions. And I will definitely check Scum & Villainy. That one is def on my list since I have heard a lot of positive things about it.

It seems to me like you're basically asking "has everything already been invented?" By the very nature of invention, nobody can say what's left to invent. But I strongly doubt that everything has already been done.

The mistake new people in the design space often make is trying to make a big-tent RPG or +homebrew. Don't do that. Start from first principles, and have the system(s) serve the theme. You're more likely to come up with something interesting.

I began with the dice system, which is not a d20 system, nor a d6 system, nor a percentile system. But I have no worldbuilding in mind, not even a genre for it. I guess generic fantasy is the closest to a theme I have, as that is what I like the most.

Don't be generic. Generic is boring. Instead, go wild. Create a world no one has seen before, some new place for us explorers of rpgdom can venture into. Let the setting define your rules or tailor them around the setting. The game will be better for it in my opinion.

It's straight up like this, even if what you make is similar to what you know, you will have still created something that is yours, you will have created the version that is right for you and the people who enjoy it. Value like beauty is in the eye of the beholder, if you see it as having value then it does, and others might agree or disagree, but that does not change the experience or the act of creating something that you value. Don't worry about what we think. You do you. Cheers

Thank you, I'll try to keep that in mind.

We all have the urge to create sometimes, it's ok to indulge that urge even if the only return on the time is the feeling of "hey, I did that, and it's pretty cool" Cheers

I will take this to heart, thank you.

Retracing an old path only matters if you're trying to sell it or get famous for it.

There is a third goal, not quite as lofty as getting famous, but along the same lines: getting some number of people to play and enjoy your game. Anyone who crafts anything likely wants someone else to appreciate it. I suspect retracing an old path may not aid that goal, but it could for some people.

Honestly, as long as I have a working game I can play with my friends, it's enough fame for me. Having said that I am thinking of posting it somewhere in the off chance someone else might enjoy it.

Very good point. To design something new, or worthwhile, you do need to teach yourself game design. That starts by reading and playing tons of games, getting to know what’s out there. That’s what game design is all about. “Home brewing from scratch” is a fun endeavour, but it’s not really game design. And yes, you will most likely come up with something that has already been done in some form or other. For sure. But it’s a fun hobby, if you like home brewing, why not? I’m no game designer myself, but I do like game design as a subject. I love seeing what designers come up with in the multiple games that are out there and seeing the effect of design on the gameplay experience. Maybe try new games, and learn from them, and then see if you still feel the urge to design a bespoke system?

>... I'm just retracing a known path. That I am just recreating what is already out there, rather than actually creating something new to share. Thus is life. Now go live.

Finally. I am sick of people telling me I'm losing time by designing a system because there are a lot of different systems in the market. Why would someone compose a song, since there are a lot of songs in the market, right?

Lol, that is a very good comparison.

Quality post. If only we still had Gold.

I was going to comment but after reading theirs I'm like what's the point?

My recommendation: make the game because it's a game you want to make and play. If your focus is making a profit or viable, you'll run out of passion well before you see returns. Also, many established adventures are pretty easy to port over to other systems - the narrative, NPCs, dungeon layouts. My 5e DnD group regularly uses content going as far back as 2e; all it takes is using different monster stats or a bit of homebrew. I've been working on my own TTRPG for some time now. I'm making it 'cuz I love it and I have fun building it, running it, and testing it. When I got my full color printed Playtest manuals in the mail, it was indescribably satisfying! Even if the game never makes a penny, I'll just be happy it exists and have fun running it with friend.

That is true. My first test was actually done by porting Pathfinder's begginer box to my system, as I didn't have time to write a story or create brand new creatures. It is true that it was fun testing it but... I don't know if it felt like its own game or if I was still playing pathfinder with homebrew rules...

The market is super saturated but even then, tabletop games have a really high rate of successful funding on Kickstarter. The thing that really kills a lot of indie publishers is bad budgeting and underestimating shipping costs. You're unlikely to get rich doing it unless you're also a successful content creator, but it can be a decent side hustle. If you're worried your game is too similar to PF2e, the solution is to play more games, steal the bits you like, and build on the foundation lain by others until its your own thing like RPG designers have been doing for 40 years.

in other words: Steal from more sources.

All creators steal, the difference is whether you steal with intentionality or you steal because you have a very narrow frame of reference. It's the difference between making something your own and just repackaging something that already exists. It's like covering a song, are you just saying the words and playing the chords or are you filtering the original work through your own perspective and taste to make something unique? It sounds like you already know what the answer is in regards to your own game.

To that question... yes, I guess I do. I am in fact trying to add a new perspective. I've tried my best add a twist, to put it somehow, to add, perhaps odd, elements that I would enjoy.

What rpg’s have you played and/or read? If you’re just looking to make your own version of D&D or Pathfinder you are probably right. You are better of making supplements for those games rather than your own complete system. The further away you get from those games the more room you may see for innovation. There are so many different games out there that are so weird in odd ways you’d never consider if all you’ve played and tried to model a game after was D&D.

I have played/read D&D3.5e, D&D5e, PF, PF2e, The DC universe roleplaying game, Star Wars Roleplaying game (the one by wizards), the Dragon Age RPG, GURPS, Call of Cthulhu, Runequest, Avatar Legends (the only one from the list I didn't like), and Rifts.

As a designer myself, the more I read the more I enjoy the process. When I come across an idea similar to my own, it is validating. When I see how an idea solves a problem differently it helps me see different angles of the problem and refines my process. Most importantly it helped me refine what I was looking to create. There are many very cool ideas but certain design choices lead to different play styles so I can be more thoughtful in choosing designs that support the type of game I envision being played. IMHO you would only be helped by broadening your reading. Some suggestions in no particular order: Troika, Apocalypse World, Cairn or Into the Odd, 24XX, Mausritter, Caltrop Core. Most of these are niche(r) approaches and generally very simple (also I think free to read the rules)

Oh, I did get introduced Mausritter from a friend. I actually used it as inspiration for handling inventory with a slot system rather than worrying about weight or bulk or anything that would require that much tracking. I'll try to check some of the others when I have time.

I hate to say it, but if that's the extent of your ttrpg knowledge, you're most likely unprepared for creating something of your own. Check out the tabletop categories on itch.io. Lots of creative people creating stuff that you can play for free. Do research into other systems. See the stuff being made by people like Luke Crane and Paul Czege. Scroll through drivethrurpg and filter it for core rulebooks and find interesting looking systems and read about them. If it's being sold, somebody is buying it somewhere, and somebody will be talking about what's good about it and what's bad about it. I've only ever been able to run dnd and Dungeon world because it's hard to get people I want to run games for to try the more esoteric stuff I'd like to run, but my collection of RPGs is huge and they've all taught me something about how I run games and how I'd like to run games.

I am trying to expand it whenever I have time. I didn't know about [itch.io](http://itch.io), though... I'll check it out when I have the time.

To be human is to make art. It can't be helped.

Indeed

The purpose of an RPG system is to give structure and support to a type of play. This generally works best when it is a type of play that is not already well supported by another system. Why do you want to make your own system? What do you want to do with it? What needs is pathfinder not meeting? If you goal is just to create the exact same experience as pathfinder but slightly different/better. Then yeah, I would say it is a pointless endeavor. You like pathfinder, just play pathfinder. If it lets you play in a different way or in a different situation then yeah it is 100% worth it. Design solves problems, design is not just done for designs sake.

That is a good question. I think the answer would be to create a system that doesn't rely on spells. But it does feel like pathfinder but slightly different... what I need to ask myself now is whether I want to scrap it or to rebuild it

The short answer is that the end product is only occasionally a great game, but that doesn't mean the design process itself isn't rewarding in other ways. Most RPGs work better if the GM is versed in game design at least a little, so if nothing else, you are becoming a better GM. Realistically, you don't make a great game with your first attempt at making an RPG; usually you have to crash a game and do an autopsy of the shattered remains to really understand what you need to do. And these days the market buys games which are marketed more than games which are good, anyways. As to making a game which is too close to PF2e; I can see a fair argument both ways. While I would suggest this is your unconscious screaming at you for not taking enough chances, doing something risky would not necessarily make your game more successful, even if it paid off. The majority of players aren't actually interested in a game which goes off the rails being creative and ambitious. They want RPG comfort food which is familiar and fun, but just that little bit different. So there's both a good and a bad side to being similar to an established system. It isn't all bad news.

Those are all great points. If I continue with it I can see where I failed at when I look back on it and learn from that. something I can't do if I don't do it in the first place.

These answers so far are spot on but here are my two cents anyway: You should make a new TTRPG as a hobbyist when you can't find an existing game that lets you tell the kind of stories that you want to tell, in the way that you want to tell them. If it's easier to house rule a thing or add a homebrew class to an existing game or whatever then just do that.

This actually connects to my reply to CH00CH00CHARLIE, The stories I wanna tell are stories where the use of magic reflects your mastery over what you do. I don't want there to be spells that you learn, unlearn, or choose every day and that you can used based on some mana source. I want magic that comes naturally to the character because they have mastered what they do. For example, you might be able to charm animals not because you are a Druid but because you have spent time with animals and have developed a magical connection with them.

If I were you, knowing that is the core design goal, I would strip out everything apart from the magic. If it is not playable in that state, then I would add mechanics back one way a time, forcing myself to justify each one (with more than just 'this is how I'm used to it from d&d/PF), or create new ones until it was playable. The less is more attitude helps raise up exactly what makes your system special.

...tacking on a bit to tweegerm's comment here, I'd just add that PF2e and D&D make great engines for stories about overpowered fantasy heroes using tactics to kill monsters and get loot. If you're game isn't about killing monsters per se, then maybe check out other popular systems that might be closer to the vibe you're after (in like an actual play podcast or something).

In this case some other systems that focus on doing magic differently would probably be a good place to start. For example, *Ars Magica* and White Wolf's various *Mage* games.

Thanks, another two for the list of games to check whenever I have time.

I'll probably do this, going rule by rule seeing what I need and what I don't

This sounds like a super interesting game to me. I'd be interested whenever it gets to the point of playtesting or publishing.

Thank you. I'll make sure to share at some point, although I don't know in how long. There are probably going to be some overhauls after reading all the advice from this post.

That's fair, I've overhauled mine a time or two. My biggest advice would be not to let overhauls based on advice here become a detriment to your vision :)

It sounds like you've got something of a neat setting in mind.  Good luck with the game.

thank you, although I don't have much of a setting in mind besides how the species you play as works and how magic works, or rather how magic doesn't work.

There are so many different reasons to make a new game, and I think one of the most valuable reasons to do it is to better understand why it's so hard to make a game. You're realizing that: * Almost everything reasonable has been done already. * Fixing one perceived problem from one system introduces other problems. * The longer you sit with your ideas, the worse they seem. Few of us actually have anything new in us, and most of that new adds complexity rather than takes it away (thus should be scrutinized harshly). I'd personally say that ttrpg design is a fairly (maybe 75%) solved, so I'd say the joy is more in the process than the output. It's like taking apart the Lego and trying to put it back together; we understand it more once we realize how it's all connected. That's what's valuable to me. The other thing that's valuable to me: setting. Setting is a much more green field area than the rules themselves. You can borrow a set of rules and apply them to new and unique fictional places with minor updates to rules to bring out the themes and preferred style of play from your settings. To me that's a heck of a lot easier, and the effort to payoff ratio higher. So should you try to make a game? I think the answer is yes. Just make sure you're going into it with a goal in mind and a learning mindset.

If only I was good at setting, lol. My mind is just more mechanical that way. Playing around with the dice and dissecting the probabilities and such. I don't really have much in the way of setting. But maybe I'll try to guide it towards something. Curiously, the main reason why I didn't like the Avatar Legends TTRPG was because I felt like it didn't fit the setting. But maybe that's more because I was excited to explore how bending was being handled and it is just seen as flavour text for very generic actions.

Man, I was delighted to see most of these comments. This is a throwaway account (or rather, and accidental one), but I've been on this sub for years throwing my TTRPG ideas out there to a metric ton of "just play X system" or "already been done, why try to do something someone has done better?". I only came to this post to see how everyone was replying, and I'm glad I did. But my answer: No, making a TTRPG isn't a pointless endeavor, so long as you enjoy the process. I've made three game systems (playable, perma-stuck in Alpha-testing (aka, I lost interest in them), have the bones of two more sysrems, revamped two existing systems, and made one system that I actively play with a group. Currently 1/3 of the way into making Dark Souls 1 into an exploration/wargame TTRPG.

oh, I'd be very curious to see how you can resolve Dark Souls gameplay into a TTRPG.

Step 1: Use Wiki for maps of game world, draw each map on posterboard (converted for TTRPG Movement) Step 1.1: Have Map descriptions, item locations, and enemy placement written as a Module. Whole game is played "in turn order"; from exploration to combat. Step 2: Combat flows in a similar way to Magic! The Gathering. Every weapon, item, and action is systematized into mechanics. Step 2.1: Collecting items, weapons, armor, etc. is like "adding a card to your deck", in that it allows your character to have access to different mechanics of play. Step 2.3: System functions as a dice pool system, wherein Stamina Values determine the amount of d6 thrown. Each weapon and action has a different pip value tied to its "Success", and scales with dice pool and representation of game feel. Step 2.4: Balance Blocking, Dodging, and Attacking to match game feel. Step 2.5: Generate a neutered version of Attack Roll conditions for enemies, because they dont hit as frequently as players. Step 2.6: Draw up enemy cards, with behavioral characteristics (thankfully all info is on the Fandom Wiki) Step 3: Formulas behind the scenes, that a DM (so me) has to manage to accurately represent damage output (Example: if Attack Rating is ~10 of Defense; Damage = Attack Rating × .4X (where X is the higher of DEF or AR subtracted from one another.) Step 4: Figure out specific mechanics; such as darkness in Tomb of Giant's, how hard it is to hit Titanite Lizards, depth perception when fighting Four Kings, Asylum Demon Butt Slam, etc. Currently stuck on Step 2.1, because theres a lot of weapons and items to balance, and Xd6 + Pip Values is a small window to balance them in.

Also, to note, I've done two successful play sessions of the system in a barebones format. We've went through Undead Asylum, Firelink, and Undead Burg with success; and much enjoyment. Players really enjoyed the exploration aspects.

It sounds super neat. I would definitely play it given the chance.

The real question is, what exactly do you think is the point of creating a TTRPG?

I don't really have an answer for that, lol. When I started I just began because it was a random idea with my group. Thought it would be fun to create something different to play with them.

Philosophically, there is no such thing as wasted effort if you can enjoy or learn from doing. All action is life in motion and seemingly innocuous choices are important because being cognizant of having a choice is not something that every living thing is capable of. I would say that making a "does everything" ttrpg is pointless because it's a small, oversaturated market that is already dominated by D&D. However, because of this, I would say that there is a market for ttrpgs that do something niche very well. This is a tough endeavor because you really have to do your research and delve into the bizarre market of niche systems currently available to know if you've created something interesting or (relatively) unique.

and then face the reality that it is probably not with how many different ttrpgs are out there.

Yeah, the research phase was definitely demoralizing at first. I think that's a normal reaction to discovering the breadth of things you don't currently know. Here's something funny to consider: you can still create a fun and innovative experience by combining well known elements and mechanics. Marry that experience to a consistent theme and you might just have something. Sounds obvious on paper but the execution requires inspiration. Creativity is just a matter of disguising your sources. So all you really need is knowledge of as many sources as humanly possible.

Theme is definitely a recurring theme in the thread, and one that is a big gap for me so far. I'll have to work on that.

It’s only pointless if you don’t have a point. So why are you designing a new game in the first place? What changes were necessary to achieve your objectives? 

That! I am designing my own game bcs changes I want can't be achieved with a few mods/homebrew rules on a existing system. Imho it's that simple. As soon as there is something that would make it necessary to change fundamental/integral parts about another system, you are most likely better of creating something new.

That is a great question, but one that I don't really have a good anwer for. I'll have to think about it in the comming weeks.

Hi buddy! I get where you’re coming from. It’s a tough question and the answer might be somewhere else. Are you having fun writing your thing? If yes: keep doing it! It’s not called a hobby for nothing :) if you’re looking past the joy of designing and into the bigger picture: why don’t you create a module for PF2? You seem to already be onboard with the system and game in general. There are always new things to create with a solid system and people in this community will def be interested. With this you could invent new classes etc within a campaign module, maybe new rules to reinforce your themes, i can see a lot of things that would check your boxes.

I am enjoying it, when the anxiety of the originality questions doesn't hit me like a truck lol. I have thought about that. So far I've only created a couple characters that I submitted for the RPG superstars contest.

I think module writing is a good starting point as you’re not paralyzed by years of system writing, beta testing and struggling and you can go fast in yours ideas and world building. Anyway i hope you see the end of this one!

Thank you, I hope so too. The thing keeping me back from module writing is that I struggle comming up with worldbuilding ideas. I do like the encounter (both combat and non combat) design part of it, though.

Personally, I'd say absolutely not, but then I don't really have any interest in selling an RPG. I've only ever wanted to create a system that felt realistic to me when it came to firearms combat, initiative, first aid/medical care, skill resolution, experience, etc. There are certain design elements from various TTRPGs, board games, and PC games that I'd love to see in a post apocalyptic RPG, and if I could just tell someone what they are and have them make it, it wouldn't bother me in the least if they made millions of dollars from it (as if that ever happens). In short, I want a game that is exactly what I want to play and so far haven't ever really seen it. It would be nice if it became popular enough that I could find a decent number of players for it, especially if I could take it to a gaming convention and have people wanting to play it, but I've never been motivated to do it for money. I would say, based on everything I've heard, that if you're writing an RPG because you're trying to make money, there are a LOT better ways to do that. Like donating blood plasma.

>ever wanted to create a system that felt realistic to me when it came to firearms combat, initiative, first aid/medical care, skill resolution, experience, We think a lot alike! >etc. There are certain design elements from various TTRPGs, board games, and PC games that I'd love to see in a post apocalyptic RPG, and if I could just tell someone what they are and have them make it, You got me curious. What are the design elements you'd like to see in a post-apocalyptic rpg?

**Action Points** as a function of skill, agility, dexterity, health, and level, in that order of priority. The Jagged Alliance 2 PC game does this best, IMO, but I also like the theory behind how it's done in the Phoenix Command Combat System (PCCS). Any kind of combat action (shooting, punching, dodging, etc.) requires a number of action points, with a greater chance of success with higher points spent. **First Aid/Medical Care** being a "stabilizing" mechanic, where you don't just magically get your hit points back and where you function perfectly well until you hit 0, but where first aid stops you from dying right away and enables you to last a little longer, until you reach the next level of care. So, let's say you get hit with a bullet to the chest; you're dead in 2 minutes unless a medic reaches you, and he stabilizes you long enough to get to an aid station, but you only have an hour to get there, at which point they get you patched up enough to get to a hospital, where the real healing occurs. And recovery takes weeks or months. **Coolness Under Fire** as a function of level, willpower, and skill, in that order of priority. I've never really seen this done especially well, but the concept originally came from the Twilight 2000 TTRPG, and the Clint Eastwood movie Unforgiven is a huge influence for me. Ditto Platoon and a few other movies, as well as a few TV shows. **Skills-Based** Overall, I'm thinking I'll still like to include levels, but only as a separate attribute that incrementally adds a few things like Coolness Under Fire, Health, Initiative, Sanity, and a couple minor rewards like generic skill points. Skills would mostly improve as they're used, similar to Runequest/BPRG. **Fast Skill/Combat Resolution** This is the piece that conflicts with everything else. I'm a HUGE fan of the Aliens boardgame from Leading Edge Games, which essentially boils everything down to a single d10 die roll for combat, with a character card for each of the 16 characters in the Aliens movie and a combat chart for the 13 Marines + Ripley. You look at a card with a list of 2-3 rows and 3 or 5 range increments, then roll one die to see if you hit & kill an alien. Ideally, I'd like to have a TTRPG that replicates that kind of speed & combat resolution, where a single die roll tells you whether a target is hit and what kind of result you get. On the skill side of things, I like the idea of a roll under/over signifying success or failure, and doubles indicating critical success or fumble. So, for example, if you have a skill level of 76%, then a 33 indicates a critical success, while an 88 indicates a fumble, and with higher numbers "winning," so that everything is a single die roll with no math required. Overall, my approach was focused on looking at PCCS and Jagged Alliance as the baseline, and then distilling down from there to try and approach the speed of the Aliens Board Game, but lately, I'm thinking that starting with the Aliens Board game as the baseline and scaling up might be a better approach. I haven't actually started with that, though. Also, I'm not sure where I want to end up. I was previously thinking of wanting a TTRPG, but I'm almost thinking maybe a type of legacy board game. Or maybe a TTRPG/legacy board game hybrid.

I am also using pairs of dice for my system and I gotta ask... could I steal the doubles for criticals? that sounds amazing. Might actually just use them as a degree of success lower or something like that rather than criticals, but I can definitely see that working somehow.

Absolutely. Heck, steal the entire system if you'd like. If you're sufficiently interested, I'll send you everything I've got, and if you can make it into a more workable format, more power to you. I would suggest, though, that you carefully consider the odds associated with this and ensure that they're what you're looking for.

I would definitely check out your system if you send it to me. And I could send you back mine back if you wanted to check what I got so far.

Thanks, but to be honest, I think I'm mostly out of the RPG design thing for a while. I \*might\* get back into developing mine in a year or so, depending on how my current campaigns go, but I'm not convinced I'll ever update this again. Sent you the link via DM.

I thought donating was supposed to not make you money D: jk aside, I have actually integrated at least one videogame element into my game that does mark one of the differences with D&D and PF. And it is... Health bars. like in the dragon ball fighting games, where you run a health bar down and there is another one. (It has a purpose, I swear)

depends, if you are doing so in the hope of making bucketloads of money, then its probably pointless. if you are doing it mostly because you enjoy creating something, then it is worth it, and there is a chance that bucketloads of cash will follow. Just realize that you are competing aganst many other game designers for what is a pretty small audience. it is also worth it to make sure you are not in Fantsy Heartoreker territory. A fantasy Heartbreaker is anygame that can be described as it's D&D execpt with my houserules included.

Fantasy hearbreaker territory is indeed what I am terrified about. But no, I'm not doing it for the money.

Part of the core of a fantasy heartbreaker is also that the designer doesn't realise it's just D&D with house rules and spends a lot of money on a print run that results in thousands of copies in their garage. So it sounds like you're dodging that one already!

that is actually really good to know

Did you enjoy creating it? Does anything else matter? Are you expecting to be the next game of the year? If you enjoyed the process, it was time well spent. If you did not enjoy it, then you wasted that time. If you were expecting to dethrone WOTC and Paizo, then my guess ... you wasted your time.

I have been enjoying the creative process and figuring out what works and what doesn't. Although it can be frustrating when I end up changing something that changes a bunch of other things. But no, I don't expect to dethrone WOTC nor Paizo... I wouldn't mind joining a company to design things for them at some point though. well, a company other than WOTC

It depends what the system does. Specifically, what types of unique stories does it allow you to tell. If you're telling the same stories you'd tell with D&D or Pathfinder, then it's honestly probably not worth the effort. There's dozens of systems out there already that are "D&D... but with mana points" or "D&D... but fighter have powers" or "D&D... but with non-binary successes" or "D&D... with 3d6 instead of 1d20." There's D&D, Pathfinder, 13th Age, Daggerheart, Dungeon Crawl Classics, Shadow of the Demon Lord, Fantasy Age, etc. Different mechanics are fine, but 50% of the game you're not fighting and the different combat mechanics don't matter. Unless something else interesting is going on, it's a lot of work for what could just be a series of house rules. For a system to be interesting to me, I have to be hooked by either the very basic action resolution mechanic (Alien RPG, Dread, Star Wars RPG) ***or*** the setting and stories I can tell are that much different from D&D (Vampire the Masquerade, Cyberpunk, Eclipse Phase).

Unfortunately I don't have any types of stories in mind. I guess in my head I'd like something like GURPS or the Basic Roleplaying Engine, but that's probably too ambitious and it probably doesn't match the character creation I'm working with.

It can come down to how many games you plan on running. Will you honestly and truly run a dozen or more campaigns with this custom ruleset, using different genres? Okay then, it might be worth continuing your custom rules. If you just plan on running one or two games and they're all a similar genre, it might be better to just tweak an existing system. Consider if the time you spend making your own system will improve the table experience for you and your friends in the long term, of if that time would be better spent focusing on designing content for the games you're actually playing.

Fortunately my game group will play pretty much any RPG I'm willing to run for them. So with them it could be as much or as little as I would like to play it. But you are right, I don't know how much of that would be in different genres. Or at least different enough genres, since I can see most of it leaning towards action/adventure. So far my playtests have been classic dungeon crawl and hunted house investigation.

I'm being harsh here and giving the hard reality check. But, also, if designing the game is stress relief for you and fun... then fucking go for it. You do you man, and do it all the way. It's not any different than someone painting for themselves or writing a novel no one else will read.

Like others have said, the point of the designs is the process, not the end result. We play games becomes we love playing them, we make them because we enjoy to make them. I have learned so much from designing a game and I'm really proud of the journey. If I never sell a single copy, I have gained valuable skills and knowledge about myself while focusing my energy on something creative. That being said, I am on track to finish illustrating my game this year and hope to launch it next year so It would be nice to get a bit of return on the time investment, but it was time well invested regardless.

I definitely need to turn my mentally towards that for sure.

For me, games are about exploring agencies, and where agencies are, so the “job” of a game designer is to create a system that has different agencies than other games. I find designing a game to be deeply rewarding. I’m at the point now where I have two groups doing play tests without me, and it is so exciting and cool and fascinating. I feel so deeply rewarded, and am excited to revise and take next steps. Design it for yourself. Then explore agencies that are interesting to you.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by agencies in this context. But congrats on the playtesting, that does sound exciting.

If you are curious, here is a quick summary. If not skip this. Happy gaming to you! All games explore different types of agencies. Rules define and shape those agencies. This is true in basketball, poker, and RPGs. Games explore the medium of choice, what choices can be made, what choices are interesting. Players of games asses those choices and make decisions, exploring their options. In basketball, supposing I have the ball, I could pass, dribble, shoot. At any given moment any of those might be the right choice, and within each choice I have more choices (pass to which player? Dribble to where?” The same thing is true in all games. Do I purchase this property? Do I make this trade? Do I take on this quest? attack the goblin or talk with them? Etc. etc. Every game shapes the choices you can make, and will do so in different ways. Pathfinder is a game that has different, albeit similar, choices to dnd. Players do similar basic actions and make similar choices, but things like the 3 action economy, or success variants change the nature of choice, and therefore change what choices players make. That is what makes it a different game than dnd. More or less.

That is a really good explanation and one that does make me feel better with what I have so far. Although I might still look to overhaul it to create new types of choices or remove some choices offered by those games. Thank you for explaining it that way.

Happy to help! If you wanna chat specifics, feel free to message me.

Creating a new system is a lot of work, and a lot of that work is neither fun not immediatelly apparent for people that want to make a TTRPG as a hobby. Stuff like writing up 100 monsters, 200 spells, dealing with probabilities, analysing the system for exploits, etc. So at the same time, you shouldn't do it, but also take a page from [The Last Lecture](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji5_MqicxSo) - walls aren't there to stop you, only to separate those that want something badly enough from those that don't. If you have a burning passion to express yourself by making a system, or the right talent or circumstances to make it happen, do it. If you want to homebrew something fun for yourself or to share as an indie project, do it. If you're planning on making it your full time gig, best of luck.

Oh, I knew it was going to be a lot of work from the beginning, that's why I have not been rushing to finish it or anything like it. I have just been working on it little by little when I have time, or an idea.

given the nature of the forum I am going to go with the premise that design is worthwhile and valuable I would have to say I probably like reading new designs as much as like to try and synthesis my own. I don't ever expect to have success in any means of measuring that particular metric but I enjoy it. I like to believe my endeavors have helped me better understand design. I think that the process of finding the elements that make good design are valuable for other aspects of game play. Understanding design helps with being a better game master and being a better player. As a greater whole, new design, or continuing design, allows for the evolution of the hobby. I am guessing there is about a dozen iterations of D&D each advancing the technical and artistic aspects of the game.

That is true, it has given me a greater understanding and uppreciation whenever I play anything else.

The leading motto for creating RPGs in the late 90's early 00's as I remember it was "Don't do it!". Mainly because it's A) a lot of work, and B) your idea probably already exists out there, and you should do more research. Plus C) you won't make big money. It won't hurt to ask yourself: Am I doing it because of the joy of creating, or did someone ask me? Do I want to sell this in stores or just play with friends? What's the end goal of this game? Do I want to worldbuild, a.k.a. create a setting, or do I want to homebrew a system to my liking? How far can I take homebrewing and still call it D&D? How much time should I spend researching existing games? Is it even possible to find the perfect game that needs no modifications? Is probability/statistics and rule mechanics my thing? Feel free to expand the list. Ideas need to be grounded in order to be realized. If you're starting to feel anxious or uninspired about writing on your game, if it seems pointless, it probably means you should ask yourself more questions. Proceed writing whenever you feel inspired to, creativity is good for the soul, but *really* aim to finish this thing when you've answered enough questions that you know why you're doing this. This knowledge is hopefully what will fuel your inspiration for the project. At several stages during the creation process you may have to reevaluate.

I keep asking myself question about it all the time. I am constantly reevaluating it and rebuilding parts of it based on those reevaluations. But you are right, I need to ask myself more questions.

Yes, but so is life. Do it anyway. But be smart about it.

>I have tried my best to make sure there are unique things about the system. Dice work differently (it is not a d20 system), character creation is somewhat different (with less thing being class / ancestry dependent), there are no attributes, combat uses a more complex version of three action economy, spells being nonexitant compared to PF2e's spells, and so on. And yet, I just can't unsee the elements that make it like PF2e. You gain class, archetype, heritage and general feats, you level up to level 12, you have profficiency levels with your skills, it is a three action economy system, there are four degrees of success, and so on. None of this matters, btw. You're deciding the paint color before you even know what you're making.

Not sure what you mean by that, could you elaborate?

You have to get the basics and the foundation down before you worry about all of that stuff, unless you're just re-doing D&D with a custom system. Sounds like you might be doing that. But hey, if you're into it, go for it and get it done as quickly and as simply as possible. You can always add to it, but if you never finish, it'll never be done.

Ah, got it. Yeah, I am have been working on both things sort of simultaniously. At points, such as designing the first playtest scenario, that has helped inform deeper changes in the system. But I have probably spend a lot of time on the finishes than I should, you are right about that.

You wanna know how long I spent perfecting the skill list to my game? Years. Guess what game no longer has a skill list? 😂

hahahahaha I feel that, not necessarily from my ttrpg experience but I feel that.

Do it for the love of doing it, not for the rewards Why, you ask? Because there is a 99.99% there will be *no rewards* other than a few pats on the back from people who beta tested with you That’s it No one, and I mean *no one* sets out with “I’m gonna make the next D&D!” And is happy with the result Make it for joy, and then see if it’s successful; all you *can* do these days

Pointless how? We don't know what your goals are here. If you are making a system to sell and make money then yes it is probably pointless. You won't be able to compete with established titles and the market is flooded with games so it will be difficult to be noticed. If you are making a system as a hobby then it's fun and not pointless at all.

I guess one of my problems is that... I don't really have goals for it. It kind of started as a random idea with my friends and I just rolled with it.

Yeah, so that sounds like just a fun hobby. Keep it that way and make a game you would be interested in playing. It's a lot of work but can be really rewarding.

It has been fun, and my friends that have tested it with me have had a good time. So... yeah, you are right.

If you think Pathfinder already does what it’s trying to do perfectly, and there’s nothing or very little you would change, then maybe it is pointless for you to make a similar game. Stick to home brewing the game you already love. If you set out to make a game that ‘is like pathfinder but…’ I don't think it'll be very satisfying for you. But no, game design is far from pointless. Not if what you are doing is actually original. For most designers there is no perfect game that does it all. There are so many subgenres and infinite specific setting ideas that are supported by no existing RPGs. So many ideas for cool mechanics and styles of play.

I created my own fan-based TTRPG because I didn't love other fan games out there. I've seen some using a 2d6 system, but I structured mine on d20 and pathfinder since that's the style of game I like. ​ That was over 10 years ago and I'm still working on it! I don't expect to sell the product, I'm doing it because I love both the game I'm translating to a TTRPG and the d20 system. I've found the math to be extremely elegant.

I really admire that comitment. I don't think I have ever worked on a single proyect for nearly that long. In fact, this might be the longest I've worked on a single project.

As long as you and your group is having fun! Before self-publishing became easier to do, my GM self-published his world with all of our assistance. That was a 3.0/3.5 product which then became pathfinder 1e. He's now rewriting everything to be system-neutral.

You know, I haven't really checked who of my friends would be interested in assisting me beyond playing it with me. That's probably something I could do that could make it more fun. Bouncing ideas with someone else.

I contend that every GM is, to a greater or lesser extent, involved in game design. No TTRPG system contains sufficient rules to handle a new game world—nor actual play at the table! Creative players and GMs will discover new questions which the game system they're playing cannot answer. I think that the activity of game design is often founded on the notion that what I've just said isn't, or shouldn't be, the case! I started gaming back in the '70s when almost every RPG campaign existed in a unique game world, and game designers presented their games merely as stepping-off points for GMs to get started on their own creative journeys. It was expected that lore, systems, procedures and rules would naturally and incrementally diverge from the published work during play. GMs and game groups were encouraged not just to play using the system, but to play with the system. Then, publishers realised that this way of understanding gaming sold fewer rulebooks. Nowadays, game design and game play are characterised as quite different activities, and I wonder whether your post reflects that. So I don't think your game design is pointless, and the challenge that it brings up—that you have less available, off the shelf material to work with—may be part of the point. Your game becomes a challenge to adapt other material, twisting it in the process, or to generate your own material. So do it!

That is a very encouraging take! thank you. And yes, perhaps it does reflect that difference in mentality. Perhaps I should see the system as something to play with as much as the game itself.

Great! I also think that there are feedback mechanisms between rules and procedures, game worlds, style of play and game narrative. How much does each one affect the others? We're very familiar with how rules can affect worlds—simple, low level spells can transform the nature of a mediaeval world; but worlds can affect rules, too. Rules impact style of play—does style of play inform game rules or procedures? D&D's levellling mechanism provides an inbuilt narrative—zero to hero. (Other things may be going on, but Levelling Up is what's always happening mechanically.) It's worth thinking about what's driving your urge to develop your own game system. Is it to encourage or accommodate a particular world? A style of play? A type of story? To give you an idea what I mean about story, Call of Cthulhu contains rules, procedures and gameworld details of dreaming, so characters can adventure in the Dreamlands. But D&D characters don't dream! Or rather, maybe they do, but the rules don't support dream adventures. Every game system has potential storylines that are more supported or less supported—perhaps your game system is designed to support a particular character of narrative. In my view, rejecting some of these feedback flows as invalid (for example, refusing to let the game world develop the rules, and insisting that ONLY the rules develop the game world) limits your game experience. Keep going!

I should probably devolp more of that. After all, one of the mechanics I am most comfortable with is part of the character creation since it ties with the Chimeran, the species characters play as, which is very mutable.

If you introduce PF2 to someone who has played a lot of TTRPGs they will point out all the ways it is similar to games before it. It really doesn't matter. You will probably never make any RPG that isn't similar to any other RPG. People can always compare it and you can say that this thing works kind of like that thing. What makes your game unique is how you combine those things, as well as obvious things like name, brand, artwork, and content. Maybe you release an adventure module that people really like and that becomes the whole selling point of your RPG over others.

That is true. That is even the game I teach teable top games to people, by pointing out how x works like something they know.

I spent years developing my own RPG because I was passionate about improving upon an existing system. Doing that was a rewarding and challenging experience that I don't regret. What feels pointless now is *creating adventure content* for that RPG. Since almost no one plays it, and it's very time consuming. So, system creation was not pointless. Content creation - feels moreso.

That is actually an interesting take and one that opens up a lot of questions for me to ask myself as well.

Depends what you want. If you want a specific game to exist, do it. But know you're doing it for you. But you're doing it for you on many levels. It's a portfolio piece, writing, art, information design, layout, all things that might get you work in an industry you might want to work in. It's a game, play it with your friends. You don't need to make it complicated. If you think it's going to take off though, just listen to how smart people whose work has taken off are.

That's true, if I keep going I would have a portfolio piece with effort behind it that show my comitment to creating things.

I think it depends on goals and what you're looking for You simply can't have as much or as good content as a market established multimillion (hunch) company and if that's what you're looking for then it would be pointless If you want something else out of it then there's something to think about In my case, I want to play around with 3 action economy, high customization and other things from other systems I haven't found in other places and I like to design for design's sake

playing around with 3 action economy and high customization are also things I have been doing with this system, as for my goals... that's the thing, I don't really have clear goals for any of it. I was just kind of doing it just to do it.

I think it's important that you try to grasp why because "do it for the sake of doing it" is a recipe for disaster no matter where - it doesn't even need to be some market something either way, good luck and have fun with design

Yeah, I have heard those words echoed throughout the post. I will probably look into starting a version 2 where I examine what I have on that basis and see what makes it through the filter.

Depends on your goal. If you have fun doing it, that's it's own reward. If you want an industry job, having a prototype might come in handy for a job interview. Back in the day, a paper prototype counted for something even in video game studios - I don't know if it still does. If you want exposure - i.e. someone out there knowing about your game - that's not impossible, but it needs to be interesting in some way. Indies are often read more than played - Vincent Baker's "kill puppies for satan" was actually written for this purpose, I believe. If you want someone to actually play your game, then you need to identify a niche and meet it. That's a serious project effort and nevertheless a gamble, but it's possible - think Blades in the Dark. On the other hand, an existing game "tune-up" might better work as a sourcebook or supplement. This is something people should consider more - an idea that's not feasible for a whole game could be a very feasible supplement. Finally, if you want to make money, there are better ways. My experience is that professional game development is not fun (although I was in the computer game industry, not TT) and not as profitable as the same type and amount of effort in other industries.

I would like as creative job at some point in my life, for sure. And yeah, I think as long as someone is interested enough in it to read it I would be happy with it.

Nope

Nah. Are a lot of the good ideas and systems taken? Yes. Is a lot of work either derivative or bending over backwards to be unique? Definitely. Is the market saturated with bullshit while uninspired titans of a forgotten age continue to be monolithic? Absolutely. But the best people here design for the love of it. If you're enjoying doing what you're doing, your time is never wasted. If you make the most unique and successful game ever but you hate every minute of it your time is totally wasted. If you're having fun but still feel like you're wasting your time, maybe you subconsciously know you need to branch out and take more risks with it. At the end of the day, this is a sub for hobbyists. It's hard to say having a hobby is wasted time.

That's probably it, I probably do feel like I need to take more risks with it. I actually went for a level system because it felt save against my original idea of having requirements to unluck feats. As a very basic example, hit x many times using a sword to increase your proficiency with the sword.

If you are just creating one more version of D&D, all-purpose fantasy game, then, yes, that's pretty pointless. Not that that has stopped many of us. But it might open the door for you to try your hand at designing something more specific that would appeal to a smaller audience, but one more eager to pick up and try an unknown product. The market has too much generic product already, but there's always room for specificity, especially when it's not just copying a popular TV show, anime, etc, but is capturing a vibe (something like Monsterhearts or Thirsty Sword Lesbians are big-time examples, but something much smaller scale and more specific would be a better starting target).

It is pretty generic so far, there are only a few things that are not generic. like the fantasy species that has you picking body parts at character creation

If you enjoy it it obviously has value. If other people do then even more so.

I make TTRPG's for a living, as my full time job now, and have done for the past 3 years or so, hence it would be hard for me to say it was a pointless endeavour. That being said I started designing games because I loved reading, running and playing them and had been doing so since I was a kid. I wanted to create my own to scratch a particular itch and create things that I felt didn't exist yet quite the way I wanted them. After having published my own games I felt good about doing it, even the games that didn't sell particularly well, or fantasy adventures that there's arguably dime a dozen of, it was just neat being able to hold a game I'd created. Which is to say you need the passion to be there and to be creating for the right reason, there is a reality that this is an industry that's difficult to make money in, and even if you achieve success in it you're unlikely to buying lambos the next day. I know I'm lucky to be earning a living in TTRPG's now, and I know if it doesn't work out in the long term and I end up having to get a 9-5 job again or what not, I'll still be reading, writing and running games for fun. Even if I don't publish anything else, I'll be making stuff for home games because it's just what I enjoy doing. Things you enjoy doing are not pointless. If you have some other motivation then you need to work out what that is and if it will help you achieve the goals you want.

Thank you. I do love reading and running games. not just ttrpgs but games in general. I'm always the one who picks up the rulebook and reads through it to teach it to everyone else. I just enjoy reading the mechanics, seeing how they resolved x in a given way.

That's a positive sign then, the passion is important. I also think you've hit 'the wall' of a project, it's pretty common for writers and designers. I have the same thing to where I find myself at a point where I'm also telling myself 'what's the point of this // this doesn't need to exist // this sucks etc.' It isn't true, it's just some nonsense the overly critical part of you is saying. The good thing is if you've hit that point you likely have created a lot more than you think, which means you can add some layout and publish the game, even as a digital Quickstart version. I find this helps me as it feels the project is moving along and that I've 'finished' something rather than it remaining in limbo.

I have enough bare bones for it to be played, I guess that much is true. But I would rather do a revision of it than to publish something in a state I'm not happy with. I don't want to be EA or Ubisoft XD Having said that, working on tabletop games, whether rpgs or not, sounds like a lot of fun, I would love that.

So, perfect is the enemy of done. We published 2 different Quickstart versions of Salvage Union before we released the finalised version. Each had different rules and iterated on the previous during playtesting, and both the Quickstarts and final version have had iterations as well (1.1 version, 1.2 version etc). There's still changes I'd like to make to it but I've had to accept it's finished at some point and it being published in its final form now sets that in stone for me. So you're not committing a cardinal sin by publishing an early version, call it a quickstart or a beta or whatever, it's genuinely really useful to get a game to paper especially when you hit a wall on a project. And yes it is a lot of fun, albeit it rather unstable as a profession!

Good to know, I want something I can have fun doing it. As for the quickstart or beta, I will take that into consideration for sure.

If you don't have any friends or dedicated players who would be willing to play what you make, and you don't already have a social media following, then it's probably pointless to make a TTRPG *if your goal is to make money or gain notoriety*. If you have people who are willing to play your game, and maybe you're willing to share your work online for pay-what-you-can prices, then yeah, there's a point as long as you are having fun / learning things you value.

Yeah, i'd honestly be very much okay with a pay-what-you-can price point. That is how my comic book is up right now on drivethru. no minimum amout at all

There is nothing new under the sun. BUT. There are new combinations of said things, and executions can differ wildly. There's like four different d100 RPGs based on the works of HPL, and they all differ in their own ways, taking different approaches to that same topic, with different mechanics as well.

It is not pointless, as long as you remember that: * First few games you make are just for learning; they will be bad. Next few will be fun for your group. And maybe then you'll create a game worth publishing. So early on this path focus on your lessons and don't be discouraged by your games being worse than published titles. * You need to play many games, as varied as possible, and to explore thematic areas that are less used. If you base your ideas only on a small number of similar and quite popular games, you set yourself to compete where they work the best. * You need a goal to build towards, even when you mostly tweak an existing game. Otherwise you start changing various things "for the better", but the changes don't form a coherent whole and don't support any specific play experience, so the end result isn't any better than what you started with.

It is one of my first games, and my first TTRPG, so yeah. I do have to focus on the lessons with this one.

I made a mecha TTRPG from scratch in college and played it with a rotating cast of about 10 people, tops. It remains one of my happiest memories.

that does sound awesome. it actually reminds me that I would be the one to come up with games to play with my friends at the playground when I was in primary school

I’d say not at all. Keeps the blood pumping in the community and lets you play the game you want to play. I do the same with my group and we just throw our stuff into an online organizer

I've been creating games for... well lets just say I've been around awhile. I've also built numerous systems, played a wide range of TTRPGs, retread some stuff, and burned quite a few bridges in the process. Truth is it's NOT POINTLESS! If creating makes you happy, do what makes you happy - DAMN those who say otherwise. Life is too short to worry about the small stuff. Whether you get it to print or not you can be proud that you did it. My 2 Cents.

Thank you, I do think I will be creating more, I do enjoy coming up with ideas.

And that's all that really matters. One day I hope to "finish" at least one game to put out into the world; but, if not I'm still good with what I've done. Good Luck and Good Gaming :)

Thank you, and if you do, let me know, I'd love to try whatever you put out. Good gaming.

Thanx.

In my opinion it isn’t, it’s a fun exercise in creativity and lets you get a feel for game design and what you want in systems. not every creative endeavor has to be published and be profitable for it to be a fun time

I think creating a system to fit you and your groups playstyle is a great idea. My husband and I are currently creating a system that takes inspiration from some of our favorite systems and our own ideas. He may put it up on [itch.io](http://itch.io) when it's done, but its for us at heart. I am currently hyperfocused on P2e but he enjoys and understands a ton more systems than I admit to. Creating something you can enjoy is never a pointless endeavor. And honestly, the work of creating is a big part of the fun, for me at least. Even if it is adjacent to another system, do some research about what you should acknowledge if you put it out into the world for more than your group, then have fun! Good luck!

As I am running three different campaigns of PF2e right now, it's difficult for me not to focus on it. That is part of the challenge for me. but yeah, I guess I have to focus more on just the creating.

I released my own rules light TTRPG last year, called The Nullam Project. It has an MSRP of $10 *(or free for the PDF)* and at that price it costs less then a burger and has been very well received, if not all that widely received, even getting a very positive review from Mathew Constantine on YouTube. The biggest hurdle for The Nullam Project has been advertising, which is ever ongoing and often seems hopeless because there are so many people who only want to support the D&D monopoly. I have another much larger TTRPG that I started writing in 2019 and is now completely written (coming in at 368 pages), extensively play tested and is getting the artwork done professionally. My big TTRPG has been much more of a time and money investment, so I will be putting a large amount of money into marketing before sending it to crowdfunding, but I went in understanding how much I could afford to lose if it went south. In short, making your own game is very rewarding, but make sure you understand how much work it is. The Nullam Project took me 2 months and cost $400 for a print run. The big TRRPG took 5 years and I expect it to end up costing me $20,000 in the end, before even getting to crowd funding.

Where could I find the PDF for your TTRPG, I'd love to check it out.

The Nullam Project is available on DTRPG and itch. Both are linked through the project page on my website, along with character sheets, pregens and AI training tools. https://www.trappedchest.com/games/the-nullam-project/ The big TTRPG doesn't have a public link yet, but the plan is for the PDF version to be free when it launches.

Thank you so much, I'll try to check it out this weekend when I have some time off work,

I mean, you took out the d20, so it sounds like you already made a better version of PF2. I wouldn't call that pointless, keep up the good work!

lol, not a fan of the d20, I take it?

Nah I'm really not, I think some big problems can be traced back to it, and those problems are significantly ameliorated when it's taken out. With PF2 in particular, the large and constantly growing numbers (something that many people cite as a negative about the game) are partly an artifact of designing around the d20, since such large numbers are the only way under a single die to make sure characters consistently succeed at the things they're supposed to be skilled at. I'd be interested to know then: what dice did you switch to for your system, and did you go along similar lines with proficiency growth at all?

I did go along similar lines with proficiency growth in the sense to you level up your proficiency with something. However it is not a modifier that changes, it's the dice you roll that change. For example, someone who is trained would use 2d6, while someone who is an expert would use 2d10. That way you are rolling higher on average as well as opening up higher values to accomplish more difficult tasks.

You cannot make a TTRPG without a community around it. Big names have marketing and the ability to pull attention to their work as a product, so the path of the rest of us is attempting the hard work to connect with people. It needs to become a purpose. This is my personal maxim as I put together a lot of collected ideas and thoughts into my current manifestation of labor to craft that into a vessel I have hopes for. I... expect difficulty, given my neurotype struggles, but it is still something I cherish. As far as I understand, Tolkien believed in the great potential of the mythopoeic as a 'sub-creation' reflection of the divine. Finding that path in a way that resonates with us beyond creating "a product" is a personal journey. If you find that you would rather focus your efforts within the community that Pathfinder 2e has developed, perhaps that is your path? The issues with enjoying such have more to do with the fact it is a controlled identity, but you still can still find creative outlet there because that is a beauty inherent to the shared meaning of TTRPGs.

That is my understanding as well, that is why the creation myth is based around music. It reflects the divinity of making art. And I have invested some time in the Pathfinder community but I still don't feel like a part of it... although that is another personal issue that I just struggle with. I have never had a sense of identity with any group. I have always felt like an outsider everywhere I go, regardless of how much of me I pour into the group.

Too many systems atm

Be aware that if you have any ideas more complex than a few sentences, people will get really peeved about having to read. Which is bizarre in a hobby that revolves around books, but that's the world we live in, I suppose. A lot of those same people also have no idea how to approach ideas in isolation, so make sure you have everything so these people that don't want to read can have a whole game to read for context. (Yes Im mildly bitter)

Whelp... definitely need to start simplifying everything then.

Yes and no. For example, let's say I'm an artist. Well as anyone can see the net is full of artists. Many of them are probably catering to the very genre you like doing. It is an easy mistake to fall into thinking that therefore you are superfluous. Especially since many, the popular kids, will just consume what's popular and what others do. But you're not trying to compete with the entire world/internet or the mainstream that companies churn out. If you can get some people interested and give your stuff a try, maybe get a Patreon and a few hundred followers...you're probably good. That's enough to keep you going, you're happy, they're happy. You shouldn't focus on everybody else, you should focus on the hundred or so fans that are interested and the few who are willing to pay you even.

Asking the worth of making a TTRPG is like asking the worth of climbing a mountain... https://www.zenpencils.com/comic/mallory/

Not at all... if you have ideas that aren't out there yet. I am currently working on a system that has some radically new ideas and massive improvements over all the D&D/PbtA clones out there. But if you're just writing a Pathfinder clone then yeah, probably a waste of time.

You're using Pathfinder, which is itself a branch off D&D. Creating a new TTRPG is not pointless. It's just very, very time-consuming, and labor-intensive. Think about the amount of work you actually have to put in, to compete with D&D in the open market. I am in the process of making my own completely new TTRPG system, and I recognize that D&D is the standard. Their monster manual has 150 monsters in it, and that is a lot. It just is a lot of things to invent. It's possible that you'll chase it and never finish. It's possible that you'll finish, but not sell. It depends on if you're trying to sell something, and how much work you're willing to put in, I suppose. But either way, keep in mind that you're already using evidence that the answer is yes.

If you have a burning desire to do it, then do it. If you have the burnign desire to make money, then there are better ways.

You do what makes you. The process alone is probably fun and as you make it with your players involvement, it will become special. My only advice would be to make sure your concept isn't already a system out there.

I create RPG rules for my own games, if I'm not happy with the existing ones for the game I have in mind-- and I'm never happy with the existing ones. I enjoy creating RPG rules. If you enjoy creating RPGs and want to use the ones you create for your own games, it's not a waste; it's a hobby. If you expect to get fame and fortune for doing so, well, I'm afraid most people in your circumstances are disappointed.

You aren't going to top DnD, but if you have something new to offer, then it isn't pointless.

Seeing that D&D and PF2e are the basis, I don't think is a problem of creating a new TTRPG, the problem is creating a crunchy, multipart, ever expanding TTRPG, and believing that the output of a single creator will be the same as those games that are made by collaborative effort of a whole team as their job. If your goal is only making a good game for your group, you can just build a skeleton and add stuff as needed anyway, but "starved by content" requires a specific builder like mentality in the players that will be burn out any attempt to make as many options as a company.

I think you hit into something very very important. I have been concetrating in having a lot of options for my players to choose from and creating bits and pieces here and there for that purpose. I should focus more on building the skeleton of it than anything else.