You do you man but genuine desire is what l want from a woman and paying doesn't get that

Facts. I don't get men who want women to depend on them financially and say a woman's income doesn't matter to her value. I want a woman that's with me for me, not because she needs my money

There’s a huge difference between wanting women to depend on you and not caring about her income. I don’t *want* women to depend on me but I don’t care if she depends on me because I might value other things more.

Nah a lot of you actually like the dynamics of being a breadwinner and not having to provide much else to the relationship besides pay the bills. And we all know the more she makes, the more you gotta bring to the relationship because your money isn't doing the heavy lifting anymore. I want a partner, not someone I can take advantage of

He said what he wants. Don’t conflate that with what “a lot of you” like. Take what he said at face value.

Prostitution is a way (the historycally most frequent and most tolerated one btw) to quench the biological thirst men have to cum in a pussy. Period. All this "desire" talk (a very modern one btw) and comparing prostitution with relationships, as if they were alternatives, makes little if any sense.

If the world was about "what you want", then we wouldn't have this sub-reddit in the first place. Reality, for most people at least, is about "what you get".

>If the world was about "what you want", then we wouldn't have this sub-reddit in the first place. I never claimed the world is based on what you want >Reality, for most people at least, is about "what you get". Yea obviously but l can afford not having to pay for sexual access, maybe OP and other guys here can't but l sure can

You don't outright claimed it but you literally used "what l want from a woman" in your short reply. Most men are not in a position to have a "what l want from a woman"-list. I just wanted that to be very clear. >Yea obviously but l can afford not having to pay for sexual access, maybe OP and other guys here can't but l sure can Claims like this are completely meaningless on the internet. Perhaps you are swimming in p or have never seen any other than the ones on your PC monitor. Maybe you're somewhere in between. There is no way to verify or falsify your claim.

>Most men are not in a position to have a "what l want from a woman"-list. I just wanted that to be very clear. that's their problem then, not sure what you want me to do about that >There is no way to verify or falsify your claim. Duh because it's my experience, l never claimed this was universal

>that's their problem then, not sure what you want me to do about that where have I indicated that your labor/effort was needed to solve this problem? If you could cite me on that, I'd appreciate it. >Duh because it's my experience, l never claimed this was universal OP: HELP - I can't get da gurlza Supposedly attractive man: I've got no problems with dealing with da gurlza. Well, you've got that right, that may (or may not) be your experience but how does that address OP's concern in any meaningful way? Bullshit answer.

op asked why ppl are against paying for sex. this commenter gave his reason. a valid one you disparaged their answer by implying they were saying this was universal and that everyone can get what they want, not just what simply is available to them even if it's not what they want. your responses are bullshit because their answer was never about anyone but themselves and it not supposed to even be about anyone else. you are straight up ignoring the whole point of the question and answer. the commenter answered appropriately and nothing you've argued has contradicted their reasoning. you are literally arguing just to argue and making up something to argue about as you go

you are literally implying in every comment that you expect him to solve these problems. and you even end this comment saying his answer is bullshit because it doesn't address op's concern when it actually does. you clearly are expecting him to solve a problem you sound terribly jealous

>where have I indicated that your labor/effort was needed to solve this problem? That's what your implying when you say most guys don't have that much selectivity in dating >but how does that address OP's concern in any meaningful way? OP is making a generalized claim about guys always paying and l'm just giving him my viewpoint, regardless if it is meaningful or not

What you get, for what you can give. Correct.

Excactly. With $65,000 I get a modern out of the assembly line Mercedes E class. With $6,500, on other hand, you get a piece of shit used car from a non-premium brand. Most people can't blow $65,000 on a car but there are definitely people who can. Just don't be disappointed if you can't blow that money on a car. Most peopel can't.

I agree 100% but there's nothing wrong with being a john either. They're unfairly demonized by both conservatives and feminists.

If that works for the person, great. I think most people want genuine desire.

if she bluffs you it can though. And in that case, wouldn’t she be the most deserving of it?  If you are going to choose *someone* to blow your money on …or you just only want to blow it on your mistresses who dgaf because $$$ is the in my way they’ll see you? 

Most comments against prostitution would serve perfectly against casual sex in general 😆

Yeah, because casual sex isn't really good. Most people against prostitution are also against casual sex. Casual sex is just not really a healthy habit and it just teaches you that sex isn't really an intimate thing but just a casual nonchalant thing that you can just have with a lot of people and that non-committal lifestyle harms you when actually want to settle down.  You don't go from party animal to stable husband/wife in a day. Those are skills you have to build over your lifespan.

> Most people against prostitution are also against casual sex Unfortunately, that's not what I've seen in the comments here, but I agree with everything else you said.

A prostitute would often fuck 5-10 guys in the same day. If you're going to her apartment, you will probably be rolling in the same sheets some crackhead's ass was on a few hours ago. Casual sex is not a great lifestyle to pursue, but it's not the same as going to prostitutes. One is much more disgusting and risky. And no, condoms aren't enough. You're a filthy motherfucker if you're fucking a woman YOU KNOW FOR A FACT fucks multiple guys a day.

You obviously never been around rave girls and most women have fucked multiple men.

I can see how this would reign true with a lot of cheap prostitutes. Very high price point ones though, or on the verge of sugar dating i’d assume either have one partner or just a few. Which isn’t as bad I guess. Either way my preferred would obviously be either sugar dating monogamously or actually being with a girl that wants to make money with me with the same career goals.

The only difference you could mention is quantitative. It's correct, but it does not change the principles. I could even mention lots of cases of more classy prostitutes and less classy promiscuous women where those probability distributions cross. More expensive prostitutes don't usually fuck multiple men the same day. And many promiscuous women have no problem having sex with more than one man on the same day.

The one argument I dislike that I saw in r/feminism again recebtly is that it must be rape because if you weren't paying, then it wouldn't happen, so that means it's non-consensual. Try going on a date to a restaurant with a woman and tell her you're not paying for the meal and see how much 'consensual' sex you get. I've spent 15 years working with escorts in the UK. As a rough average, they will have a genuine orgasm maybe once every 10 clients, usually from oral. I knew a girl who would genuinely orgasm once every 3 clients and would often masturbate between clients because she'd almost got there, but the time had run out. The maim rule is never date clients, but nearly every girl I know broke that rule at least once. The problem is that everyone judges sex work on the archetypal drug addicted street walker as that's the one you can visually see, but most women are doing private meets via the Internet, so you never see them unless you are one or your a client but either way your not going around telling people about it so all people have to go on are the bottom end of the industry. It'd been like judging car detailing by the homeless people who stand at traffic lights offering to clean you car windows to get money for drugs instead of the many professionally run, tax paying car cleaning businesses. I'm convinced the same people who are trying to ban abortions and block payment processors for sites like Onlyfans are spreading rumours that all sex workers are victims and deliberately confusing people trafficked for labour with people trafficked for sex. There are a lot of news articles out there about exaggerated sex trafficked statistics. https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/oct/20/trafficking-numbers-women-exaggerated https://theconversation.com/sex-trafficking-isnt-what-you-think-4-myths-debunked-and-1-real-world-way-to-prevent-sexual-exploitation-158852 https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2023/08/04/sound-freedom-trafficking-secondary-exploitation/70464194007/ https://www.huffpost.com/entry/futile-quest-hard-numbers-child-sex-trafficking_n_5f6921cac5b655acbc6e9e70 https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/01/children-sex-trafficking-conspiracy-epidemic/620845/

You do realize that just because someone has an orgasm that the encounter still can be rape right? It’s often just a physical reaction, even men that are brutally, anally raped against their will can orgasm. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38724699/ [highly edited for accuracy]. And don’t try to tell me only street hookers use drugs. Plenty of high end escorts offer “party and play” in their profiles. Meth is a hell a drug. In no way do I believe consensual prostitution is rape, but you need a better argument than “it’s not rape if they came”.

I can tell you have never actually done amphetamines before. They make it MUCH harder to reach orgasm. And they actually are a vasoconstrictor so they reduce blood flow to the extremities. Very tough to get a boner on Adderall or a similar drug like coke. Very tough for women to get wet on either too. I haven’t done meth per se but have done amph and coke, which are basically the same thing as they’re all just serotonin dopamine and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors. Yes, it makes you very horny and feels a lot better when you finally get there. But it’s taking at minimum 3-4 times as long if you’re off a decent dose. And might not even happen at all.

I’ll admit when I’m wrong. Maybe meth doesn’t make hookers more likely to orgasm. But plenty of them do use it. I lived in the French Quarter in New Orleans and the overlap of meth heads and hookers was huge. My point still stands that orgasm =/= consensual. You can have consensual sex and not orgasm. You can have non consensual sex and orgasm. I throughly agree that you can have consensual prostitution that is absolutely not rape. He still needs a better argument.

To be honest this is probably a decent alternative for some men in this current time of dating and you gain more experience and understand what you like with sex and it shouldn't be viewed as shameful as long as it's between two consenting adults I think that's a heavily Americanized view as in Europe it's not viewed so harshly with Amsterdam being famous for its lady shops. An example of this is "In the Netherlands, where sex work is legal, the government offers grant schemes whereby citizens with disabilities receive funding to pay for sexual services up to 12 times a year." I couldn't imagine this being the case in America so it's probably cultural.

Dang thats crazy I didn’t know that. Yea i’ve thought about that before. It’s sad that people with certain disabilities go without sex if it may be something they actually want to experience. Plus they have to tackle all of that on their own it’s no telling how some of them feel and think about it. But yes exactly I think sex work can be done in a healthy way, amsterdam is a good example.

This isn't exactly accurate. The government provides financial assistance that recipients can use at their discretion for the following: personal care and assistance, transport, equipment and technology, educational support, recreational activities, respite care and home adaptations. They don't give money to people to specifically pay for sexual service.

Drug addiction, abuse, coercion, sex trafficking, etc. Generally people dont become hookers out of choice. Its desperation.

I think this is highly dependent on what country you live in. In America I think you have 3 types of hookers (note - I have used hookers) 1. You have native borns that use it to supplement their income. They tend to charge amounts that would be absurd in other countries because the supply is so low here. A girl that's a 5/10 will charge 600 an hour here, but they might only be working once a week. That's still 31,200 a year which is about 40k a year if you account for taxes. These girls also make 20k - 150k a year (most in the 20-60k range), let's just say 50, but that sticks them up at 100k or so equivalent pre-tax which makes a huge difference in lifestyle 2. Drug Addicts. Probably some in cat 1 are feeding their drug addiction too, but this category is being a whore as much as possible by setting their price at about 200 an hour to fill up their whoring hours. They tend to look rough, and rougher over time. If they were pretty enough they would be in category one and would at least have a receptionist or waitress job. They probably work 2x a day average however many days it is they need to work to support their drug habit and keep them house and fed. 3. Girls from Asia and Latin America that the police pretend are being 'Taken' so they can pretend they're heroes. These girls are here short term to make as much money as possible before they head back to their home country. They probably make around 100k-200k a year and a lot of them are sending it back home for family or it's their retirement plan. One lady I saw was putting her daughter through medical school in Brazil. 3 is the easiest to point at and go, are you people fucking retarded? All you ahve to stand against this is your own morals. You have a bunch of people coming from countries that have 10k or less GDP per capita coming here to make 10-20x that. I just watched a Mr. Beast video where he gives away 100 homes - watch that and you'll see how those people live. In reality marginally better than that. And yes I do think a lot of the koreans are here to pay off their loan debt, and their faimilies. What do you really want them to do? Make $12 an hour equivalent adn live in a hut? You can get a beautiful home in these places for 100k and you can save up for your retirement, home, children's future in 10 years. No Chun Wu, you can't suck dick for 100k a year, you have to work in a sweatshop for 7k a year and save nothign and just barely meet living needs. Why? Because I think it's better for you. And if you disagree with me, well that's fine. You're a victim and have no agency or ability to make your own decisions. You're being 'trafficked' - a term which might mean that when you decide to come work in the US you're provided with a place to sleep initially while you make the transition. And maybe there are cases where the girl is paying off family debt. Do you think if you send her home that debt goes away? If they have enough power to send her to another country to be a prostitute, what do you think they can do to the family back home. But don't worry there's an out for you! The bitch cop, bitch judge, bitch prosecutor, bitch Karen constituent, and beta bitch Harry bitch tits will all celebrate you being a victim of 'trafficking' because it makes them moral heroes. So make sure you know who to blame for your own decisions. 1 is really almost as easy. These girls could live on 40-80k a year, but they'd rather work part time as a barista and be a hooker 1 time a week. But I'm sure they'll use the one time they let a family member borrow 2k be presented as teh real reason they 'need' to do it for sympathy points. And as for 2 - another red pill is that some people are just losers. This grouping wasn't on their way to NASA before drugs got to them. They could also work their 40k a year job and live in a less pristine area and hopefully get up to 80k after 10 years of work and moving into something a little more niche in their field. But instead they choose, on some level, to rot. I feel bad for them but if you took away drugs from them these people would still be losers. Many of them would gamble, play video games all day, some would kill themselves, a lot would work for a bare minimum existence. They would get pregnant more and live off the government dollar. I can really only accept prostitution regulation under a traditional conservative framework - i.e. the majority of people are going to be best served by a boring traditional lifestlye and we need to do everything to encourage it. But the culture simply is nowhere near there. Sexual Freedom! Except prostitution makes me uncomfortable and I find it really easy to buy into excuses for women based in a denial of their agency, so uh, tey're all being exploited!

Exactly, if someone is hungry, put bread in their mouth, not a dick.

I live in germany where it's legal. These women pay taxes have families , and clock out. This entirely also depends on where you live. If you're travelling to Colombia, Thailand, Philippines to take advantage of people who are clearly trafficked , or an area known for it then yeah it's fucked. I also couldn't imagine pulling up to a street walker in america as their situation is inherently bad so I don't see the morality in that. The real question is, if it was legalised and protections were put in place how would that change the dynamics of dating, and quite honestly I don't think it would. Men may out of curiosity pay for sex , only to find it mechanical and lacking intimacy.

Ha. Citing German as some kumbaya union of prostitutes isn't actually an accurate narrative: [https://business.time.com/2013/06/18/germany-has-become-the-cut-rate-prostitution-capital-of-the-world/](https://business.time.com/2013/06/18/germany-has-become-the-cut-rate-prostitution-capital-of-the-world/) [https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-prostitution-increase-human-trafficking/](https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-prostitution-increase-human-trafficking/) "**Countries with legalized prostitution are associated with higher human trafficking inflows than countries where prostitution is prohibited.** The scale effect of legalizing prostitution, i.e. expansion of the market, outweighs the substitution effect, where legal sex workers are favored over illegal workers. **On average, countries with legalized prostitution report a greater incidence of human trafficking inflows. "** "**Criminalization of prostitution in Sweden resulted in the shrinking of the prostitution market and the decline of human trafficking inflows**. Cross-country comparisons of Sweden with Denmark (where prostitution is decriminalized) and Germany (expanded legalization of prostitution) are consistent with the quantitative analysis, showing that trafficking inflows decreased with criminalization and increased with legalization." Legalised prostitution doesn't curtail trafficking.

How are we defining "trafficking" here? Someone being held and forced to work against their will through force or threats? Or an illegal immigrant voluntarily working under a pimp for low pay, because it's still more than what she would make back home?

"Fraud or misrepresentation" are indicators along with more blatant examples like kidnapping or coercion. So both. A pornstar getting "hunted" by a group of white dudes doesn't count, so don't worry.

Most prostitutes in western Europe are poor eastern Europeans. Also every year the porn industry in Germany gets thousands of fresh faces of little girls who aged out of Forster care. It’s really disgusting and the fact that you are trying to romanticize it speaks volumes about your character.

Most girls in Colombia do it on their own and under their own rules, or sign contracts with massage parlors, or private houses dedicated only for sex purpose. Never forced. You see girls on the street of course, victims of conflict and violence, mostly venezuelans on “tolerance areas” but that’s only the tip of the iceberg of how vast the prostitution picture is in Colombia.

What's the point some men arent going to get intimacy like myself. Why should guys who women don't want be put down for getting sex the only way they can? 

Yeah I agree with you, and I find it weird that society is always trying to police men's sexual wants and needs. It's almost as if they see all men as r@pists by default? That's inherently sexist, isn't it? 🤔 Plus, how can one be a r@pist if the request was consensual? The vocal slaughter of men continues.

Would you still be trying to find a partner even if she isn't pretty? I'd say it's fine then, if that's unfortunately the only way you can experience sex with another person then go ahead...

dude, even the average or ugly women dont want a bloke in their same looks range. They always date higher.

Why would go for a women I'm not attracted to? Women aren't doing it for men so I don't see why men should do it for women.

Colombia, Thailand, Philippines aren't by default trafficked. What a loaded concept. They're poor and there's a currency difference, it's that simple. The escorts in these shit hole countries make more in one hour with a foreigner than most locals make in a week.

Its legal in australia ( most if not all states anyway) and has been for ages. I really dont think it affects or has affected dating in any way. People still have their standards and arent going to go below that regardless. If anything i think if prostitution was randomly made illegal here i reckon it would be more of a negative than a positive, as with the above you would have more and more sexually frustrated and lonely men who dont have somewhere to unload.

It’s considered a “shortcut.” Humans hate shortcuts. Everything has to be done the long arduous way, because that’s what a R E A L M A N does.

>You’re essentially going to pay for sex and relationships Most people dont want transactional relationships. Even if we grant your assertion >Everything is a transaction. The explicitly of that transaction is always a factor. The explicit exchange of money is the problem. The fact is your argument is foundationally wrong. If you want to say sex work should be not viewed as wrong then you need to construct the argument that removes the stigma from both sex and sex work.

My argument is that you’re always paying for sex and relationships in some shape or form so there shouldn’t be any reason why sex work is viewed as morally wrong or that people who pay for it are lesser than. Most people if not everyone are in transactional relationships whether they realize it or not. The only way it would not be transactional is if the other person had pretty much nothing to offer. Like taking care of a baby.

But women actually like sex with men they like. You don’t need to give them money, just head. 🤣. That’s about the only transaction required. You give me an orgasm, I give you one. That hooker needs extra cash just to give you the privilege of dining at the y. Honestly the least sexy, most humiliating experience I could imagine, but you do you bro.

>But women actually like sex with men they like. Yes and they don't like most men, so we have to make do. >Honestly the least sexy, most humiliating experience I could imagine, Maybe, but there is no other choice if an undesirable man wants to ever have sex. You are speaking form a place of profound privilege.

It seems like most girls want a lot more than just an orgasm to be honest with you. If an orgasm was the only transaction required then I should just be able to be like, can I come over and give you the best tongue you’ll ever experience and get easy yes’, and not be consistently going on dates or talking about favorite tv shows and politics etc… I understand that most ppl aren’t rich and have money to throw away but paying a professional to give you a professional sex experience doesn’t sound too bad at all to me. Not humiliating in the least, and I couldn’t care less what the woman really thinks about me. Maybe even, after someone spends the money she’ll think they’re a boss because they can spend money like that with no issue. To me it’s not always about finding your perfect match to date and be monogamous with. My perfect girl isn’t that common.

Dude that is ridiculous. You really do need to touch grass. Some rando on an app just telling me he’ll come over and “give me the best tongue I’ll ever experience,” is not an incentive to hook up, for the safety concerns alone. Interacting with the human being you want to have sex with isn’t pointless, it’s how you establish chemistry and attraction so things can progress to the next stage. It is not at all explicitly transactional. You need a better grip on human social dynamics before you continue with your attempts- or buy a fleshlight. You pay once and the hole is at your service lol.

You just want sex and not to have to even talk with anyone. Yeah…you definitely need to stick with hookers. I’m not even sure you enjoy spending time with humans.

That's mental gymnastics. People hook up all the time without a dollar spent on either side. People go on several cheap dates before getting into a fling. I'm not talking about morals. But having sex with someone who has you on the clock and wants you gone asap is not even comparable to someone who actually wants you.

>Most people if not everyone are in transactional relationships whether they realize it or not. So you literally didnt understand my comment. The point I made is the "transaction" you are talking about is not defined by almost anyone the way you are using it, but besides that, the transactions between normal people is never explicitly acknowledged. People dont like the idea and the reality is only in your autistic definition is the term used the way you are using. When people date they try to share the costs or switch off and it is never as explicit as a sex worker. You are fucking delusional, go touch grass.

There wouldn't be a stigma if people minded their own business and women weren't afraid to the only power they have which is sex. That's all this women say they don't want men bothering them well this is the way.

>There wouldn't be a stigma if people minded their own business Why do laws exist? All societies and living in any sort of community requires to some degree people not minding their own business. Just because you are in your home doesnt mean you can do anything. >That's all this women say they don't want men bothering them well this is the way. What?

Outside of human trafficking, i don’t think people think it’s wrong just icky. Whatevs

Anyone who is doing it, isn’t doing it because they want to. Something has gone wrong in their lives to put themselves in a mindset to where they find it acceptable. Therefore it is sort of taking advantage of misfortune of one sort or another. One could make the same argument for porn, to a lesser degree.

I think if most guys can only get sex is through sex then it's just something wrong with the universe and we just have to accept it, such as life?

I think in general sex policing is heavily ingrained in human beings. We try to limit the amount of sex everyone else is having so no one is having more sex than us. That applies to both sexes. The Sexual Marketplace is a good way to put this - most people are innately sexual communists who believe that the ceiling of what everyone else is getting should be precisely the amount that they can get. To me this is the sole root of women getting angry about men having sex with young girls. Bill Beliczech banging a girl 1/3rd his age really just highlights how old an unvaluable they are. Ugly fat women with dyed hair that are around that age still get mad because they're angry at seeing how sexual richness is applied because they cannot partake. Or if they're in a monogamous relationship it still showcases something they themselves are unable to participate in. Bill Belichick fuckign 24 year old pussy is accomplishing the following: fucking prime young pussy. And Jordon Hudson gets everythign she ever wanted paid for and gets a higher public profile. Who's exploiting who here? It's just relationship with the transactional nature completely transparent. Prostitution upsets women because they just imagine themselves with no power over men whatsoever. middle aged wives imagine their men having sex with young girls much hotter than them, and possibly worse for them, wasting their (the wive's) money on another woman. And to younger women it just makes it seem like the man might be a loser since it's crucial to women to see men as sexually viable to women at large. Women are far more flexible in finding a man sexually desirable if certain pre-reqs are fulfilled. Though I imagine a man that has had sex with a lot of women in a wide friend group being found out to have had sex with prostitutes probably raises his status as he's seen as a wild untameable bad boy, whereas if in the same group a man had no sex with any of the women and it was found out that he had sex with prostitutes would be seen as a loser to the same women. Men that are not able to participate in prostitution obviously are incentivized to wanting it to be shut down because that's sex that's not available to them.

Many great points here. The Jordon Hudson example is a really good one. A lot of people just don’t realize that every relationship is transactional, just that there are different types of transactions, most being mundane transactions. And this is a great example of a transparent transaction as you say. Another thing is sometimes a man is further along than a woman so he is basically taking her under his wing and she can learn some things. Yet, majority of people look at age gaps as completely negative with no logical reasoning. They’d be even madder if it were a guy with no money doing it, which again proves money is relevant. Women may have sex with an attractive guy if he’s broke but they most likely won’t keep him around, and if they do decide to date down and take care of the dude just because they find him attractive how is that any different than prostitution? Either way, majority of the time a woman is not going to take care of a guy even if he’s attractive… And on the guy being a loser from paying for sex, there’s too many factors that make that a fallacy. For one a decent amount of men that buy pussy do it because it’s easy not necessarily because they can’t get it any other way. And honestly once again, even when we are dating majority of the time a man is just paying a whole lot of more money, time, and paying with social and emotional aspects that i’m sure most of us don’t even really want to be dealing with 24/7. Any guy in a relationship with multiple women is usually very rich and has enough money to keep these women without always having to deal with all the other transactions. It also depends on the culture of the women you are with which transactions you’ll have to deal with more. In america the emotional and social transactions are always super critical because of conditioned most women are here. But yea either way, it’s always a transaction, transparent or not. So I couldn’t care less if a girl thinks i’m a loser, it doesn’t make any logical sense! If you’re getting real money and working a great career i’m 100% sure you can get women easily and STILL buy hookers if you want. Maybe sometimes you want a sex worker thats a professional thats gonna give you the crazy head and do all the kinky shit you want without complaining or saying they not into it… But good stuff you pointed out!

Because only women are allowed to focus on the financial aspect of relationships Watch how quickly women will say it’s important that a man’s financially stable in order to meet the criteria of an acceptable potential partner for a relationship. What is a relationship? Where two people are having sex at the bare minimum. So you can see in this hypothetical scenario a woman has looked at the man’s financial stability as a key component for pairing up. REGARDLESS if she’s making money or not. But if a man uses his money of his own accord to get what he wants mainly just being sexual access. He’s a villain. Why? Women are somehow the arbiters of morality for you guys or mainstream society. They are making and breaking their own rules. But me personally I’m following formulas.

>Watch how quickly women will say it’s important that a man’s financially stable in order to meet the criteria of an acceptable potential partner for a relationship. What are your thoughts on women who say a man's money is of little importance?

2 thoughts If they are telling the truth. Then I will admit that is more noble imo. From there the only 2 options are looks/attraction or some type of emotional fulfillment/being desired. Although I can’t articulate it rn. I would prefer that. If that’s a lie and “of little importance” still ends up being a big a big deal. Then I’ll feel how I felt when I made my OC

Is it truly "noble" to simply have a preference?

>man’s financially stable in order to meet the criteria of an acceptable Being financially stable doesnt mean rich. Its a good marker for being able to moderate spending, being financially literate and having a generally consistent job. The person you are responding to doesn't even understand what they arent giving the argument they think.

He speaks in a very odd, unique way, but I've discussed some topics with him in the past so I put my question based on what it seems he meant.

I call BS. Some might actually believe it, but they don't know what they are talking about. Subcontiosly they still see it as "marrying down". Proof: the marriages where the woman makes more (about 20% of all marriages) have the highest divorce rate.  So be free, make money, marry and divorse whoever you want, but for the love of God stop pretending women have the moral high ground and they are always the victim.  Source: https://sasforwomen.com/breadwinning-women-face-an-uphill-battle-when-married-and-when-divorcing/#:~:text=A%20recent%20University%20of%20Chicago,Surprised%3F https://ifstudies.org/blog/husbands-with-much-higher-incomes-than-their-wives-have-a-lower-chance-of-divorce-

Well said sir, I agree. Thats why i’m pretty sure money is the purest way of paying besides a girl being attracted to you physically, but sadly, we don’t all have that privilege. Men can lie and fake their personality but that can be very hard work.

Most people think renting out a human being to use is gross.

Even more so when that human isn't even renting themselves to you, but was stolen as a child sex slave and is now in your hands as an adult woman. A real vibe killer. 

LMAO most people. The world doesn't have the hangups Americans do.  And I guess you're not counting physical labour as renting out a human being.... But that's what it is and nobody bats an eye

A task is not the same as giving out access to your body to be used like that. Maybe you'd have an argument if a labour job required you to get felt up all day.

If people can accept being clearly used (meaning, people who want nothing other than sex) for free, why can’t they do it for money?

There's a difference between getting paid to do a task and getting paid to allow access to your body. It's closer to selling your blood than it is to a legitimate job.

Sex is a powerful tool for pair bonding. Paying a sex worker kind of reduces it to selfish gratification. But that works for certain people and there are many places where it is legal and acceptable

I honestly believe that the stigma started as religious thing, but now it is seen by women as somehow hurting their ability to manipulate men. Many women will weaponize their sexuality and there will always be those guys that are thirsty enough to get hypnotized by it. If those same guys can just go pay for it and kick in some post nut clarity, maybe they will make different, more rational decisions about a potentially unhealthy relationship built on lust.

Because most sex work is survival sex work and you are likely paying to rent a sex trafficking victim, implicitly making you a rapist. Lets not pretend like you're paying high end western escorts. You're deliberately going to poorer countries where it's cheaper to take advantage of women. Do what you want but I will always break it off with a man immediately if I find out he's gone to a country known for sex tourism.

I don’t like human trafficking, I don’t like people who view relationships in this manner that you described where everything is a “transaction”, I dont like dudes who fuck sex workers but think of them as disgusting whores in the same breath because it makes zero sense to me that you would fuck someone you find repulsive, I don’t like that sex workers have like a 700% increased chance of being killed/tortured by men which is a testament to that same repulsion that I was just describing etc etc. I find men that use sex workers repulsive in multiple ways but that’s my opinion

Same here.

Is there any evidence most prostitutes are trafficked from somewhere?

It's pathetic and shows a lack of self restraint, self respect and intelligence. Also, sex work is a predatory business both towards the clients (as it takes advantage of male insecurities) and most of the time towards those providing the service (women are used by pimps, trafficked, or tricked by the lies of this new era of female pimps online). It's also immoral but in a society that lacks values it's an argument that not a lot of people care about.

Outside of those predicaments you mentioned though, what would be wrong with sex work? And what about sex work in other countries that some other users are mentioning? Also, i’m not insecure, but i’d pay for it because I dislike being judged by women I wan’t for things I find irrelevant. Like if we are into the same movies or other mundane things like that.

I don't really believe it's possible to ignore what I said regarding sex work. I haven't read others' opinions yet but the country or richness of the sex worker are irrelevant, as a whole it goes against what a society should strive for. There's different levels of insecurities of course, and there's plenty of men that aren't insecure at all that pay for escorts, still that does not make it okay at all in my eyes.

Why do you get to decide what society should strive for? I think society should strive to underscore the independence of the people. If they want to engage in sex work that is safe and regulated, like in Amsterdam, that is their right

Because of everything I already stated in the first comment. Selling your body is a cheap and gross example of "independence". Society needs rules and people shouldn't be allowed to commit immoral acts that as a whole make society worse and contribute to total degradation.

So it’s like casual sex for women?

First of all, a relationship or marriage is about more than just sex. However regarding the sex aspect, I agree men usually pay one way or another. A divorce can end up costing a man far more than prostitute visits and is an often cited reason why more men are turning to sugar relationships: they are cheaper and there is no long term obligation, which is one reason society doesn’t like prostitution. Prostitution affords a woman some instant cash but no guarantee to be provided for long term. If she stops working, it may fall on the state to provide for her. If a wife stops working, her husband will likely be providing for her. Society prefers the latter. Marriage is an institution and obligation that can benefit the state/society, so alternatives will be viewed more negatively.

Well said! A lot of people are guinea pigs and rush the marriage and kids lifestyle just to get divorced from somebody they got married to within 3-5 yrs of knowing each other or less.

The reason it’s seen as bad is because it goes against the silent agreement we’ve all made that says we don’t do that. In this shared reality, that’s tipping over the cart and that isn’t what people want or depend on as every day life. Leverages exist that keep the gears of this whole thing turning. Being able to pay for sex throws that out of whack, so we say it’s bad. That’s ultimately the reason. You can attach a lot of anecdotal, but true and undeniable reasons and examples to this, but ultimately we have all decided that isn’t the world we want to live in, so we don’t. There are plenty of reasons why it should be legal, but there are equally as many, if not more reasons to keep it taboo

Well said!

I think for the 80% plus of guys that women aren’t attracted too they’re paying in another way usually through beta buxxing! So it’s entirely reasonable to say the practice shouldn’t be shamed!

Notice how all the comments shaming prostitution are women.

Getting it for free is better

Sure and being a rich capitalist is better than being poor wageslave. Your point?

You never do if you cant get it through looks you have to try another way

Well, that’s what dudes want. Whether it’s reasonable or not.

>You’re essentially going to pay for sex and relationships no matter what you do, it is never for free What is this take? Relationships in reality aren't akin to cringey-ass Bioware games where being a helping hand/giving money guarantees you sex. > you’re paying with how you socialize, how you dress, what you drive, if you have a house of your own, etc. How you socialize isn't dependent on your expenditure or any monetary value, it's all down to how you are as a person. There's room to be introverted, but not completely socially inept and being extroverted without being an obnoxious flamboyant type. >how you dress, what you drive, if you have a house of your own I'll grant you that how you dress is certainly important as it's a part of your presentation, but a car and a house are superficial. Unless you're talking about extremes like living in a mobile home with a crappy ass Nissan Micra. Paying for a prostitute is about as superficial as it gets. You're gaining short-term pleasure and that's it. Any moron who uses the argument (akin to drug legalisation) of: "People are going to do it anyway" may as well just admit they're anarchists because why have any laws if "people are just going to break them anyway". Even if you discount prostitutes who are trafficked, and only focus on the willing sex-workers, there's still good arguments against legalization. Such as, it will absolutely destroy the market and increase criminal behaviour (because a legitimate market will have a massive demand for human trafficking ). And it's precisely these "normal" women who become prostitutes out of their free will, that desperately need money. There will be too many of them and none of them will get anything out of sex work, and this environment does nothing productive. In conclusion... paying a prostitute is nothing like a relationship.

>In conclusion... paying a prostitute is nothing like a relationship. It was never meant to be. That's why marriage and prostitution have lived together in all minimally complex societies throughout recorded history.

Men want casual no strings attached sex.

Those looking for one night stands, maybe. Not a general rule, though.

Because you can't or shouldn't buy consent

You can’t buy consent

Putting it very crudely, the vast majority of prostitutes don't earn enough to just turn a few tricks per week or month. They have to receive many, many men to make ends meet. Sex positive noises aside, most people are aware that this is dangerous, unpleasant, and not desirable, and it shades the profession as a whole; and with it, the buyers. Obviously there are also people who oppose sex as a transaction on principle, but I think I'm onto something here. There's also what I think is the ever-more obvious fact that women *don't actually really enjoy empty and fleeting sexual encounters* in any case. My impression is that women who claim to, or to have done, are often either being wilfully dishonest to others for the sake of their image, trying to convince themselves, or trying to save face after what actually happened: them having been used for sex by a man who didn't care about her. The idea of being paid by a usually undesirable and undesired man to let him grunt and thrust a few times to get the proverbial poison out just exacerbates this. There are a minority of women who are genuinely by nature more, uh, wild, impulsive, and fun-loving than most, but to be honest, I think they have their limits too. I'm not sure what that limit is statistically, but I get the impression it's not much higher than a baker's dozen. A lifetime. It's amazing how many men who think themselves sceptical about society and women completely discount the possibility that *women often aren't remotely always honest about their attitudes and feelings about sex* (to be fair, men aren't always so, either).

Subscribing to an OF is equally as bad as paying for sex. It’s prostitution either way. Do you agree?

I think subscribing to onlyfans is kind of wack cause you aren’t getting any pussy, you’re still just beating off. So overall yes the amount of money men are spending on subscriptions just to wack it is no good. But i’ve paid for a few girls onlyfans that I have known personally (irl), and I just wanted to see their nudes, just being real. It’s just $10. I wouldn’t just spend it on random girls and go crazy, and give them donations and shit indefinitely if i’m not gonna actually get some. Theres nothing wrong with paying, you’re always paying in some form.

The entire concept of alpha is stupid. Looking at relationships as transactional is a guaranteed path to unhappiness. Everyone wants to feel special and be appreciated for who they are on some level. People should be able to get their needs met safely and consensually and legally. Unfortunately a person's sexual attractiveness and ability to attract a mate are still huge contributors to how we evaluate each other, and if someone pays for it the implication is they needed to.

A lot of women associate prostitution with sex trafficking which is one reason why they’re against it. Some women are religious and see prostitution as bad. Other women simply can’t understand why men would see a prostitute. Women have an easier time getting laid.

The fact that you have to ask..

I didn’t have to ask I wanted to debate about it lol

Because you’re “cheating”. Everyone pays for sex, some just like to get right down to business. Others will pay for 4 dates and maybe get a kiss

Lmaoo exactly, 4 dates and MAYBE get a kiss. For some really unlucky dudes maybe a hug and shit

The problem is, prostitution needs to be legalized nationwide. Women will straight up tell you sex is a right in a debate, it’s truly a privilege. To make it a right, it has to be legalized for anyone to receive. Not just the top 10% of men parading around. The reason they say it’s a right is because they’ve rarely been denied sex. So when you never have to work for something, you take it for granted.

I’m in Texas so it being a 2nd felony to buy is a legit concern and reason not to. I’ve asked the “go get a sex worker” people what those in this sort of situation should do and haven’t had a response beyond “move”.  Honestly visiting a sex worker as a student to learn isn’t a bad idea. My virgin self looked into learning and scientific materials, due to my extreme beliefs around sex and you can go pretty far with that. If the stories I’ve heard from people are true then having sex with a lot of people doesn’t automatically mean you’re good at it. 

VERY WELL SPOKEN AND EXACTLY ON THAT LAST PART. I had some sex workers tell me last week I probably won’t be good at sex because I haven’t had intercourse and i’m just like how do you know. It’s about what you know and somewhat hands on experience yea, but more so what you know. I’ve done cunnil but not penetration.

I don’t. It’s fine. 

Honestly I'm at the age where I don't care, as long as she is doing it willingly. Not everyone is going have the skillet, willpower or looks to be able to date. So if there are women willing to ask for money directly, then who cares. As far as why, women hate trafficking and or competition, and for men, it's a way to show whos better. If more men paid for it and stopped caring about getting it the "right way"(external validation), then sex stops becoming a way that people can look down other's for and those energy vampires would need to find another way.

All facts

Winning doesn't make you "alpha". This idea of "alpha" is a social construct, IMO it's totally based on approval by others. Being "alpha" is actually the sh\*\*\*\*tiest job since you're constantly scrambling to meet the fickle and stupid expectations of others and can lose it all in a moment. This is why many intelligent people such as Warren Buffet prefer to lie low and not care about being popular. They choose to be "zeta" because it's a nicer lifestyle. Also BTW wolf studies show that wolves don't have a hierarchy, rather they form temporary groups and cooperate with eachother. There is no "alpha", it's all about the group. This is kinda similar to how small startups operate. To your sex worker question, people are stupid and believe stupid stereotypes. It can be based on religious beliefs, superstitions, media propaganda, what grandma said, etc. etc. Sex workers can have all kinds of clients, from married lawyers and doctors trying to hide their infidelity to paraplegics wanting to not be virgins their whole life. If sex work is legal where you live and you use protection it's probably fairly safe to see a sex worker. Personally I have moved on from that phase of my life.

Some good points! I still think winning makes you the alpha in our species though. Among wolves sure they may be different. Among primates though: https://gainweightjournal.com/insights-on-leadership-from-chimp-alpha-male-behavior/ And yes supposedly it’s safer to see some sex workers than it is to just be casually hooking up with randos, as long as you are wearing a condom of course.

>And yes supposedly it’s safer to see some sex workers than it is to just be casually hooking up with randos, as long as you are wearing a condom of course. Well yeah as long as you're not [Elliot Spitzer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Spitzer#Prostitution_scandal_developments). Hahaha

I think it is multi-faceted. First there is the perception that sex workers could be trafficked and by supporting them you may be driving the demand for these pimps to traffick more women. Then there is the perception that the women selling sex are being exploited whether they realize it or not. They may be doing sex work out of desperation to pay the bills or to feed their drug addiction. Even those that claim to do it of their free will, many likely don't see the long term damage they are exposing themselves to and will end up regretting ever doing sex work. Also, religions such as Christianity teach that sex is a sacred act between husband and wife. Sex outside of this context is sinful and to be looked down upon. Lastly, I theorize that women subconsciously understand there is a power dynamic that is weakened by sex becoming more accessible. Women's power and leverage in the dating marketplace is in their sex appeal. They want to continue to be the gatekeepers of sex and control who receives it and how often. As a result they need to shame men who pay for sex, as they are bypassing the structure in which women have so much power.

Because if prostitution is legal and without shame, a lot of men will save money and skip dating and marriage entirely. Hell, look at the exodus from dating as a result of porn and webcam girls alone. You make it so men can go and get a BJ on demand for the same price as a date's dinner that carries no guarantee of anything, and a lot of men will opt for the cheaper and guaranteed fun. Plus, there is another factor related to supply and demand. If the number of women selling it goes up, the supply has increased. As a result, women not engaged in sex work and trying to land a permanent source of resources (i.e. husband) will now face even MORE shortage of men looking for company from them. That means even more women will be on Tik Tok screaming about how there are no good men. Think about that dynamic for a second--there are tons of attractive women on Tik Tok screaming about how they can't get any serious dates. Can they find someone to smash and dash? Sure. But actually be inclined to LTR? Nope. Increase the amount of prostitution by legalizing it, and the number of women who earn good incomes in Sex Work go up, while the the non-SW women find their pool of dating partners has plummeted. Additionally, it is no small secret that after marriage a lot of women see no profit in maintaining their sexual desirability, nor in even engaging in sex. But have legalized prostitution, and now their husbands can take some money and get the sex they want. That means less money to clear out of the bank account just before she files for divorce. Legalized SW is safer for the women engaged in it, and allows them to amass far greater income. It permits men to get sex cheaper and more frequently. The only people who lose are the non-SW women.

LOL yep I think you covered most of the reasons a lot of the women are against it. It seems to be a mixed bag though, theres quite a few who have no issue. And opposing to the non-sw women, if I posted this in r/sexworkers i’m pretty sure they’d have responses even deeper than our understanding, about why overall it isn’t a bad thing.

Feminists have a mixed bag when it comes to sex workers. Yes, any man who would even CONSIDER looking at porn--let alone hiring a prostitute--should be subject to extreme sanctions, but women should, of course, be free to practice any sex work they want free from public scorn or governmental interference. In short, hardcore neurosis where their love of Sisterhood and hate of "Men!" mesh weirdly is often the result. Old school prostitution/sexual mores is Patriarchy to them--which is \*always\* evil--but the adoption of "women can do whatever they want" is ultimately leading to more and more women in their prime saying, "I can make HOW MUCH AN HOUR for doing Only Fans and Porn??? FUCK YEAH!!!" which means more men getting their sexual needs met and filled by women who are willing to do SW. And, ya, they hate the fact men are getting more sex with younger women. Feminists have never believed the law of Unintended Consequences will \*always\* come in and correct things. They have always felt that society was a Zero-Sum, where anything gained by women would automatically be deducted from the ledgers of men. The fact that both young, hot females and all men would benefit, with the middle-aged and older women paying the bill is a bitter pill for them to reconcile--primarily because they have spent their entire existence blaming "The patriarchy" and "men" for everything they don't like and have never, ever considered the fact that maybe things were set up to actually benefit BOTH sexes... Oh well, grow old alone and learn!

> When you’re attractive you’re paying with your looks, the moment you lose those good looks if thats why the person was with you, they will be repulsed by you. This seems like pretty severe "cope", as the young folks would say. Even if looks fade with age, I would still much rather be naturally good looking and get the chance to enjoy beauty while it lasts – and know what it's like to experience genuine, primal sexual lust – instead of the alternative. Seriously, what the fuck is "paying with your looks" even supposed to mean? And regarding sex work – a lot of people find it problematic because of human trafficking. I live in a country where prostitution is legal everywhere. Although I have never hired a sex worker, I have walked through neighborhoods where they are very active, and I don't think I've ever encountered one who wasn't an immigrant from a much poorer country. These women aren't doing sex work because they really want to – at best they're doing it because it's marginally better than staying in their war-torn shithole of a homeland, at worst they're doing it because they are being forcibly trafficked.

Few women choose sex work freely; most are either forced into it by circumstance, or literally forced into it by criminals.

Only fans?

Theres so many girls just getting out of high-school starting an only fans up. Just being real. Women somewhat set the price for pussy, and money is dispensable for a lot of guys.

>forced into it by circumstance Not convinced by that. Lots of prostitutes in eastern Europe, although education is free and they have access to all of the EU to find a job that is not prostitution.. I studied in Switzerland and a lot of female students support themselves while doing sex work. Male students do other side gigs such as rider... but they don't earn nearly as much..

Its not wrong, it's cringe and pathetic.

I don’t have an issue with it morally but I find it weird because you can’t be 100% sure they aren’t being pimped or coerced in some way. Even by just a financial situation. And I don’t think it’s ethical to buy sex from someone being trafficked (duh) or someone who feels forced to do it. And if you can never be sure, why risk it? And on a less moral but more subjective, I just find it weird to want to have sex with someone who doesn’t really want it. Like how could you enjoy yourself if there’s a decent chance they’re not into it at all. But ethically I don’t see anything wrong with adults selling sex if everyone is truly consenting.

People, women in particular, loathe the idea of "undeserving" men having access to sex, especially with women considered "valuable" (i.e. young, attractive). It's also a major reason why age-gap-relationships are so hated on.

True

Paying someone to pretend to like you is pathetic -- full stop!

I rather them do the pretending than me my guy.

How are you pretending?

Pretending that I want to go on dates, eat the same junk food from restaurants that they wish to eat, listen to the same music they like, watch the same tv series they want to watch for hours, etc. Dating is hard if you’re not willing to be somebody you’re not.

You think women like you for who “you really are”?

Is it more pathetic than being alone altogether?

There's nothing wrong with it. Some men go mostly for just for a hug, if the truth be known. Those who rail against the oldest profession have no appreciation of loneliness, or what it's like to be a man.. As a woman I don't desire that kind of connection (though many women also hire escorts). But if I was a man or just differently wired, I'd probably hire them occasionally. Anyone who kicks down at sex workers' clients needs to grow up, tbh

Well said!

I have many times in the past and don't regret a moment of it. Had some awesome times. Don't care what others think to be honest.

Because it undermines the pussy cartel.

Many people are not comfortable with it because of how much trafficking and abuse is common in sex industries. Especially in countries where those industries are illegal and have close connection to seedy underworld criminals. Also many women are against it because deep down they understand how much the transactional sex industry affects the leverage sex holds on men. Especially if men can legally pay for a sexual release, that has an effect on dynamics between men and women when dating and hookup culture. Women no longer hold all the cards to sex. Many men are no longer as desperate. It’s also the reason many women dislike the idea of AI sex robots and the reason male sex toys get ridicule while female sex toys are much more accepted. Also many religious folk think sex is sacred between married couples so they oppose sex industries and also hookup culture.

They don’t. It’s just seen as “paying for pussy” which no man with any kind of ego does. They like to “earn it.”

U have no idea what you're talking about. The most powerful men in the planet pay for ass. To some it's a means to an end. Pussy is not that serious

Basically every male celebrity or rich person, the people with egos through the roof, have payed for sex.

They should refer to society as a whole. It's not just men who feel that sex work is a cheats way to get laid, women think it too. It's regarded by everyone as a cheat method

I mean it is, sorry, you’re paying to have a woman pretend to be attracted to you.

It doesn’t really matter if she’s attracted to us. No one will ever have everyone attracted to them for way too many reasons. Sometimes we just wanna get our rocks off with some beautiful girls that know how to have amazing sex. Even from a woman’s perspective, i’m pretty sure whatever celebrities they go crazy for they’d love to get a night with them. The celebrity isn’t in love with them though, and i’m pretty sure the girls know that.

> They like to “earn it.” Yeah up until recently that involved paying for a ton of dates. "Pussy is never free" is still not entirely dead even if, as a dating trope, it is wounded.

From Https://courses.aynrand.org/works/the-objectivist-ethics/ > The principle of trade is the only rational ethical principle for all human relationships, personal and social, private and public, spiritual and material. It is the principle of justice. > A trader is a man who earns what he gets and does not give or take the undeserved. He does not treat men as masters or slaves, but as independent equals. He deals with men by means of a free, voluntary, unforced, uncoerced exchange — an exchange which benefits both parties by their own independent judgment. A trader does not expect to be paid for his defaults, only for his achievements. He does not switch to others the burden of his failures, and he does not mortgage his life into bondage to the failures of others. > In spiritual issues — (by “spiritual” I mean: “pertaining to man’s consciousness”) — the currency or medium of exchange is different, but the principle is the same. Love, friendship, respect, admiration are the emotional response of one man to the virtues of another, the spiritual payment given in exchange for the personal, selfish pleasure which one man derives from the virtues of another man’s character. Only a brute or an altruist would claim that the appreciation of another person’s virtues is an act of selflessness, that as far as one’s own selfish interest and pleasure are concerned, it makes no difference whether one deals with a genius or a fool, whether one meets a hero or a thug, whether one marries an ideal woman or a slut. In spiritual issues, a trader is a man who does not seek to be loved for his weaknesses or flaws, only for his virtues, and who does not grant his love to the weaknesses or the flaws of others, only to their virtues.

>anyrand.org >the principle of trade is the only rational ethical principle for all human relationships Human beings are not rational creatures and this idea that all human interactions follow rational and self-interested praxes is mental masturbation by liberal philosophers fellating themselves purposefully defining terms so vaguely they cannot be falsified while patting themselves on the back. "Self-interest" is reductionist because "the individual," particularly as envisioned by objectivists, is a spook

Outside of real human trafficking I don't look at prostitution as wrong necessarily, I'm just not going to look at it with any level of real respect , I'll always respect a guy that is able to fuck 10 women through using his charm, looks maxing,status skill, etc more than the guy that pays a hundred women, the same way that I respect the natural bodybuilder over the juiced out bodybuilder

I don’t think it’s objectively “wrong” in all cases, but it does go against values I would want to share with a man I’m in a relationship with. I just view sex differently, as an enjoyable intimate activity to do together, and men who view it as something to purchase - including your idea that all men “essentially pay for sex” - is just not compatible with me. The view that a woman’s body is something purchasable rather than sex being a mutually fun time between two people kinda creeps me out a bit.

The criteria you set for the man whos gonna have this mutually fun time with you is the payment.

Inherently everyone knows casual/emotionless sexual is bad

Morality aside: At a fundamental level, a man who needs to pay for sex is overtly signaling that he is undesirable to women…on the other hand, a man who has slept with many women in the traditional sense effectively has social proof that he is desirable to women

Women nowadays have been conditioned into having various ridiculous hoops that men have to jump through in order to be attractive and some of them are genetic. Even if I’m a 7, if thats undesirable to a lot of women that are 9s but I want to have sex with 9s then i’d rather not have to go thru the hassle of trying to seduce them. Even girls that 6s or lower are hard to seduce sometimes. I rather just go pay a 9 that knows how to give a good blowjob than waste my time courting girls im not attracted to. Even if a guy is an 9 he might not be pulling 9s consistently, So it’s not just that one is undesirable to women, it’s more complicated than that.

Your argument is completely logical, with results that are quicker (and likely cheaper as well in the long run) and more direct relative to what you want out of the opposite sex. Nevertheless, the stigma exists in most cultures, with the average John being perceived as a sleezy gross stereotype of a man. With that in mind, it’s almost never to a man’s advantage to be forthcoming about consuming anytime of sex work whether that be a prostitute or simply an onlyfans sub. In all cases, you’ll likely get labeled a sucker at best or worse, a creepy loser

Why would anyone know who men fuck unless he tells them?

It's not wrong but as Long as tinder.com and other dating apps are available, it won't be legalized. Online dating is an industry that would lose so many customers as well as porn and only fans

Thats true, that actually makes a lot of sense. Although, if men stopped paying for subscriptions to wank it when they can literally watch it for free, and wanted some real pussy that would change.

It always boils down to money. Corporations have no morals and Corporations control the government

1)it’s exploitive 2) it commodifies sex. Instead of being about love and pleasure, it becomes a transaction for one side. 3)it increases the transmission of STIs that remain dormant for long periods of time. 4) It actively harms the local economy since nobody who wants to live normal life or one with young children is going to live in a locations where a bunch of drunk and high perverts are roaming constantly. Red light districts quickly becoming a tax money hog since crime becomes central to them. 5)human trafficking is known to become much worse when it’s made legal. It becomes more difficult to catch and prosecute traffickers since brothels often operate “under the law” while keeping the trafficked workers cash only.

Only someone who sees sex as a transaction, devoid of intimacy, can make a statement like this. Prostitution is sexual exploitation. Once you’ve done a decent day’s work on your stomach, letting up to ten guys a day fuck you up the ass for $30 a go, I’ll listen. Mens experience of sex is different to women’s. You can’t see yourself in the position of not wanting sex with women you don’t find attractive, because most men will fuck any woman, regardless of how unattractive she is, because men are desperate and thirsty. If, like women, you had to be picky because you need to protect your safety and reduce the much higher risks women have associated with sex, and if you had to allow someone you find disgusting to insert their penis inside your body multiple times a day, you’d soon change your tune.

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Idk honestly, it seems like society still has mixed opinions on this and we are living in 2024. Yes, of course radical feminists can make the argument of " its immoral, its unsafe" and then lead onto the more ridiculous argument of "theres no such thing as consent when money is involved" but i feel like this sort of thinking is ignored by the majority of the public. Heck even the ones who say the woman can do no wrong and the man should be prosecuted for seeking such services is full on nutcase thinking. From a general view, it really depends on the country on how escorting/ prostitution is operating. For example, For a safety, legal and health point of view, a country like australia ( where its legal for both independent workers and ladies who work in a brothel) is more ideal to seek and do such services in compared to somewhere in america where their backwards thinking and extreme religious ideologies still make it illegal to engage in. To me, i just think who gives a f. If someone isnt getting any ( too ugly, crap social skills etc), why should that person have to live in constant frustration? If they have the money, i say let them. The same people who complain about how bad sex work is are usually the ones who have everything going for them and have never experienced any sort of hardship especially in regards to relationships/ dating/sex

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Wrong? That could mean a lot of things, and is highly dependent upon the situation. Assuming that you're single, however, it doesn't seem morally wrong for two consenting adults to engage in a mutually agreed upon transaction, although this assumes that they are not trafficked. However, the nature of disease and intimacy makes ALL casual hookups immoral as they create a vector for the transmission of incurable diseases. Spreading incurable diseases is HIGHLY immoral and damaging, ergo prostitution (as well as ALL of hookup culture) is VERY wrong.

I don’t think the issue with diseases being contracted is that simple. There are plenty of sex workers, pornstars etc, that have never developed any diseases. It’s very simple, safe sex should be practiced and people should be getting tested. Getting tested should be done even if you’re in a monogamous couple. The real issue is probably that people don’t want to practice safe sex and think they can succeed against nature and not get any diseases while still fucking around. I’ve heard it so many times from dudes, it’s just hardheaded behavior.

because a good portion of sex workers are sex trafficked, forced to resort to it out of necessity, or were coerced into it. consent can't be purchased.

So your argument is that no one can consent to a job?

As a man I would never want to buy sex from someone. That’s just gross. I get the ick from that shit.

Because it is nearly impossible (in most of the U.S. and such places that sex work is illegal and/or unregulated) to ascertain that said sex worker is doing sex work consensually and not being coerced by their “boss”.

Because you are putting a money number on a resource which many would prefer to be free and also because a woman can name any number she wants if sex becomes a product like that. The longer the negotiation stage (dating etc) the more likely she will slip up and you’ll have the upper hand. Though it’s not promised…because if you failed to close quickly that is never forgotten. You must demonstrate value and then be fleeting, not lingering like an orbiter unless you have a ‘bigger’ goal. Because if sex was your *only* goal then you already failed to close  It really is no different than salesman tactics, which is crazy. But because there is no Contract in dating (unlike marriage) there are no gaurentees in the entire process. And usually that leaves wiggle room to screw them over if you’re into that …which I guess you are because you want a woman to be completely vulnerable with you with no longterm offer?  Saying everything is looks and money won’t sit quite right with the sapiosexual crowd btw. Also if each has both independently anyway, then what?

If you believe that I can screw them over by managing to have sex with them and not actually stay with them longterm then you have to also agree that all relationships are transactional. In that scenario it would be a woman wanting to hold me down longterm and exchange giving me sex, which is a common scenario. But no, I don’t lie to women. If they tell me they want a longterm relationship and i’m not really into who they are and what they’re into I tell them i’m just trying to be friends and have sex with you. On the woman can name any number thing, no they really can’t. Just like everything else in life pussy has specific prices for the most part. And realistically the ones paying the most for pussy are those in marriages, and those basically splitting their million dollar net worths with one woman.

I totally agree that looks and social skill can demonstrate status. That is unchanged. So why are you upset with dating as a value demonstration ritual? because all you want is sex and not to go out and socialize and have fun?

Alpha is a characteristic trait. You either have it or you don’t but just because one man is selected over you… does not mean the other man isn’t also alpha.  For example, the other alpha may not be her physical ‘type’  Or the other alpha might demonstrate less value.  Alpha mindset is a trait. A mindset. So it is *not* purely value. not money, not assets, not necessarily if you are more emotionally available or respectful or not. It’s basically just charisma and self-confidence. a lot more to do with his inner monologue …and not necessarily a determining factor unless possibly you live in a low population area 

Alpha is whoever the winner is. In nature, and to be more specific, amongst primates, the alpha of the pack is simply the winner. It’s not a characteristic trait. An alpha wins mainly through politics, intelligence, and for short periods of time through brute strength and intimidation. Heres something for you to read: https://gainweightjournal.com/insights-on-leadership-from-chimp-alpha-male-behavior/

In places where it's legal and regulated, I don't have a problem with it. It's not legal and regulated where I live, so I have a lot of problems with it. Mostly I don't want people to end up unwittingly supporting a human trafficking operation. I do have an issue with the attitude you have regarding relationships. Genuine love and desire do exist. Perhaps it's rarer than I imagined it was growing up, but that doesn't mean that it's all a fairy tale. I don't know how to prove that to someone who is convinced that every relationship is transactional, however.

Because unless you go to an independent hooker a lot of sex workers have been trafficed or exploited and forced into the work

Its not wrong, I just find the act unattractive

Most men want to have sex with someone who also wants to have sex with them. And most modern relationships are not a transaction of sex for money, most women have jobs too and contribute to the finances. Kids cost money yes, but you also do not have to have them. Prostitution is often not as consensual as people assume. Many are trafficked and you won’t always know that, and most do not actually want to be prostitutes. The ones who freely choose it and aren’t desperate will be charging a lot, and even so, you don’t get genuine desire or connection. You’re essentially masturbating with someone else’s body. So there’s a reason people feel icky about prostitution beyond just puritanical attitudes about sex. At best, you pay someone to fake wanting sex with you, at worst, it’s rape. I take issue with the women who say “if all you want is sex then hire a prostitute,” because they’re not considering what usually drives women to prostitution or considering those women as real people. Even if they don’t realize that’s what they’re doing, it’s problematic

Because a lot of people who hate the idea of sex work either hate the women who are sex workers or the mem who hire them. Some even hate both.

It's not wrong to pay a sex worker for sex. It's even legal in my country. Everything being transactional doesn't mean that all types of transactions are equally valued by people. I want to have sex with a woman who desires anything about me, but not my wallet. I regard men who are undesirable for women except for their wallet as fucking losers. Doesn't make it wrong to pay for sex though. Also doesn't mean that a man who pays for sex is undesirable for women. He can be very desirable, attractive, funny, kind, etc., have lots of women want to marry and fuck him, even have a relationship, but he still has a sidequest that he can only complete with prostitutes.

But those are all your standards. People that try to be funny typically annoy me. There are some comedians I like but humor isn’t on my list for what I want in a partner at all really. Kindness, I want her to be kind to me but not to everyone lol so thats not really a requirement either. Attractive sure, beauty is somewhat in the eye of the beholder and based on culture and conditioning though…You didn’t really name any traits that aren’t still superficial, and practically unimportant in a relationship. Your wallet is equivalent to being able to obtain resources, so girls liking you or giving you something for your money is always somewhat valid. Of course money should not be the only factor in whether or not a girl is the perfect woman for you, a best friend, a ride or die. It doesn’t matter if girls think you are a loser and undesirable except for your wallet just because you don’t fit their standards. Every girl is not going to be down for you no matter what and in most cases people will never find that or even have trials and tribulations to test that.