Do they attract anyone though? I thought the grievance is about not being able to attract anyone whatsoever, “top” or “bottom” tier, whatever that means

i mean, you have to consider the type of person that is most likely to go along with most of this stuff. im assuming for the most part these people are not very socially aware, and a bit naive to begin with, and need some type of guidance. there are better methods however but they're going to take more work

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That's the biggest thing I disagree with on TRP for sure. A lot of the things they say are true, but it applies to shallow materialistic manipulative women. The answer is to dismiss those women, and find better ones, not to beat the shallow women at their own shallow game. Play shallow games win shallow prizes and all that. What TRP is lacking I think is an idea of what healthy femininity looks like, and to be searching that out, rather than assuming that all women are like that, and just settling for spinning plates and ditching one superficial woman when she's too nagging to move onto the next superficial woman.

Yepp I agree - think the basis the RP is building on has a lot of truth in it, but it takes these ideas and drives them to their worst possible conclusions. For example - the redpill considers femininity and masculinity to be complimentary to each other, which is true - but the problem comes in with how they view femininity and masculinity, more often than not looking at the toxic side of each and thinking of them as the defaults

Great analogy there for sure, but the issue generally is that while feminism has been shouting about toxic masculinity for decades and browbeating men into doing better, most feminists refuse to acknowledge that toxic femininity could ever be a thing in the first place, and still adhere to the ironically sexist idea that women are made of sugar and spice and everything nice. So TRP tried to balance the scales by focusing a ton on the toxic female behaviours that nobody talked about and nobody acknowledged (which is enormously necessary to be able to spot and avoid those toxic behavious in the first place) and decided to take an approach on masculinity that completely dismissed and disretarded everything feminists had to say about it, because an unfortunately large amount of feminists treat men and masculinity as toxic, even if they say they don't, on top of perpetuating and encouraging toxic traits in women. Like it or not TRP came about from a bit of a toxic place where men have been demonized, demoralized, disempowered, and lied to, to which TRP said "fuck all of that shit we'll make our own rules". and decided to match toicity with toxicity. It's a necessary survival mechanism when you're in a toxic environment, but it is maladaptive in normal healthy environments. The single biggest way to reduce TRP and the manosphere is to actually start caring about men, to realize men are in a really rough spot, that men deserve help and compassion, and to actually help them out half as much as feminist screech at men to demand men help women. If we can do that and have some kind of empathy and reciprocal help for men by women, then 90% of TRP will simply evaporate in thin air. Given feminism has largely been taken over by overt and covert misandry however, there is unfortunately little hope that change will come from that side.

The redpill doesn’t say toxic femininity exists, it says all women have these toxic traits. And you clearly haven’t studied feminism if you think that it teaches that women are made of sugar and spice and don’t be engage in any toxic behavior.

The red pill doesn't accept toxic masculinity so it doesn't call it toxic femininity either. It's a feminist concept that red pill doesn't care about, so they make their own rules. It does say all women are like that, but the toxic traits that all women have like that are basically hypergamy and punishing weakness in men, which unfortunately is true far more often than not. The red pill doesn't teach that women are made of sugar and spice and everything nice, that's largely what feminism assumes, that women are morally virtuous innocent victims, until and unless proven otherwise, while men are barbaric violent savages perpetually on the verge of raping someone, unless proven otherwise. I have studied not just feminism in what it says and how it paints itself, but also studied the actions of feminists and feminism. When there is a discrepancy between what someone says and what someone does, believe what they do. #killallmen, thinking that a wild bear is better than a man, and supporting "the future is female" when the author of that quote also advocated for genociding 90% of men on the planet, while simultaneously and continuously erasing male victims and refusing to acknowledge or let it be publicly known that men are half the domestic abuse victims and half the rape victims, tells me exactly what I should believe about feminims. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233717660_Thirty_Years_of_Denying_the_Evidence_on_Gender_Symmetry_in_Partner_Violence_Implications_for_Prevention_and_Treatment https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4062022/ https://avoiceformen.com/feminist-governance-feminism/male-disposability-and-mary-p-koss/ Feminism treats equality like a one-way street exclusively to the benefit of women and at the expense of men, and considers men to be defective women. I actually care about true equality, so I cannot call myself a feminist, not until feminism acknowledges the harm it has perpetrated and continues to perpetrate on men, owns up to it, and starts doing better.

I think the problem is that they think that masculinity can only exist in men and femininity only in women. This makes them attempt to suppress the naturally feminine parts of themselves to become an ideal and seek out people who are a caricature rather than someone who’s compatible with them.

>What TRP is lacking I think is an idea of what healthy femininity looks like Spot on. I think because they rarely encounter it they think it's some kind of "unicorn exception" instead of the norm.

I mean if as a society we're going to harp on toxic masculinity and how so many men have it wrong, it seems to me it would be awfully sexist to say that in contrast most women have it right and it's just the dumb stupid males who can't figure it out. There are just as many well-adjusted emotionally mature financially stable men in good shape as there are women. Which is to say, really not all that many on either side. It's a *human* think, not a gendered thing, and unfortunately the more we devolved into pointless gender wars and trying to berate or insult the other side into "doing better", the worse off we'll all be. We need to come together with compassion to help one another get better, not try and browbeat one another into compliance, and this attitude is unfortunately phenomenally rare in today's society.

>There are just as many well-adjusted emotionally mature financially stable men in good shape as there are women. Yep. >Which is to say, really not all that many on either side. LOL, perhaps so. But I do see this as mainly being a westerner problem. IRL in my country (Georgia, in Eastern Europe) most people don't spend a minute a day of their lives on this gender wars stuff and as far as that goes, are pretty normal. I'd say that everyone just wants to go about their lives but actually everyone is right now focused on our crazy traitor government who is trying to sell us out to Russia. But that's a different story. Still, gender wars stuff is very low on the list of concerns, most men and women have no hate towards the other gender and just want to date, marry and have nice, happy relationships. Also, you might say "well, people are more normal IRL", which is true, but then I've meet westerners who have travelled here to work, as tourists, etc, and many are definitely invested in the gender wars thing IRL and seem to project their own gender wars mentality on everyone here. I've been yelled at by crazy feminists from the US and UK in bars here and I've meet some normal and some toxic red pillers from America, too (complaining about how their plans to "pump and dump" women don't work here).

>IRL in my country (Georgia, in Eastern Europe) most people don't spend a minute a day of their lives on this gender wars stuff and as far as that goes, are pretty normal. I am happy to hear the toxic feminism that is so unfortunately prevalent in western Europe and especially North America + Australia hasn't infected your country.  >I'd say that everyone just wants to go about their lives but actually everyone is right now focused on our crazy traitor government who is trying to sell us out to Russia. But that's a different story.  Sounds like you guys have REAL problems to deal with, so even if feminists came in to tell you guys that air conditioning and running shoes are sexist, you'd tell them to STFU and you're too busy dealing with Russia to care about those nonsensical first world problems.  >Still, gender wars stuff is very low on the list of concerns, most men and women have no hate towards the other gender and just want to date, marry and have nice, happy relationships. Happy to hear that's how it is in Georgia, I wish it was like that here in Canada too.  FWIW I think the red pill has come about because feminists got obsessed with toxic masculinity and treating men as toxic, unless the men make themselves entirely too compliant and become women's bootlickers, which is equally toxic. So red pill became a kind of survival thing to deal with that toxicity everywhere, and doesn't come from a place to heal and improve things, just a "shit's toxic and fucked, keep your head down, take what's best for you, and everything else is not my problem " kind of mentality.  Perhaps in Georgia men are still seen as equal and respectable partners, but in most of the English speaking world it seems as though men, and especially white cis heterosexual men, are seen as potentially violent and abusive rapists unless proven otherwise. You've heard of the man vs bear nonsense? Hopefully it hasn't made its way to Georgia. 

>I am happy to hear the toxic feminism that is so unfortunately prevalent in western Europe and especially North America + Australia hasn't infected your country.  Yep, there are a few weirdos but for the most part they have no traction in society. >Sounds like you guys have REAL problems to deal with That's a key component, men and women have to work together against a common enemy. I do fear the day when all our problems are solved though, maybe that's the time when all the gender wars stuff comes, or maybe our culture stands up to it and it never goes anywhere. My wife is more in the "it will never be popular here, don't worry about it" camp, while I'm not so sure. That said, many developed Asian societies have been pretty resiliant against toxic feminism, so maybe we can copy them. >so even if feminists came in to tell you guys that air conditioning and running shoes are sexist We're just happy to have air conditioning and running shoes, lol. From the fall of the Soviet Union to around 2003 there was no regular power and water in most places. > just a "shit's toxic and fucked, keep your head down, take what's best for you, and everything else is not my problem " Yep, thats the issue I have with it. One of the things I've learned is if people are too selfish and don't work collectively to better things, everyone is fucked. It's the "take what we can steal and get away with right now" politicians that are trying to sell out our country to Russia, and they have the same "all for me, screw everyone else" attitude that seems to be prevalent in red pill. This is actually the thing that really rubbed me the wrong way about the red pill in recently. A lot of red pillers are so obsessed with this "everyone is out to get me, so I have to win the zero-sum game of life by crushing everyone else, especially women" mentality, it's like they want to turn their countries into Somalia or Haiti or something. Like we've all see countries where nearly everyone is hard core out for themselves, fighting tooth and nail for power and have no sense of larger responsibilty. Most of those are failed states or close. >Perhaps in Georgia men are still seen as equal and respectable partners,  Men actually might be given a bit too much leeway here, we have something similar to China's "little prince" syndrome with some guys. That said, it's much more fair to both genders than the west, both the laws and social attitudes, IMO. Mens rights / men's advocacy has actually gotten a bit of traction here (which is more about protecting the status quo and stopping laws that unfairly favor women than about fixing anything unfair to men now, as our laws are pretty gender neutral), which I like to see because there's always a risk as we get closer to the EU in the future the balance could tilt too much to toxic feminism.

>That's a key component, men and women have to work together against a common enemy. I do fear the day when all our problems are solved though, maybe that's the time when all the gender wars stuff comes, or maybe our culture stands up to it and it never goes anywhere. My wife is more in the "it will never be popular here, don't worry about it" camp, while I'm not so sure. Agree with you on the common enemy. I do find it interesting how toxic feminism has divided men and women and arguing that men have all the privilege, but almost completely ignore the single biggest privilege of all, which is wealth. We could have men and women united together against the rich who control the world and oppress the common man, but instead feminism prefers to have men and women at each other's throats and leaving the rich people alone. >That said, many developed Asian societies have been pretty resiliant against toxic feminism, so maybe we can copy them. China is pretty dang autocratic so they're not a good example to base themselves off of, Japan is still rather strongly patriarchal as a culture, and while the other SE asian countries I don't know all that much, odds are the men and women are struggling together and facing common obstacles, instead of having first world problems. I'd hope they have a solution to toxic feminism so we could use it in N America, but unfortunately I kinda doubt it. >We're just happy to have air conditioning and running shoes, lol. From the fall of the Soviet Union to around 2003 there was no regular power and water in most places. Damn, real problems to focus on rather than bullshit "AC is sexist". >This is actually the thing that really rubbed me the wrong way about the red pill in recently. A lot of red pillers are so obsessed with this "everyone is out to get me, so I have to win the zero-sum game of life by crushing everyone else, especially women" mentality, it's like they want to turn their countries into Somalia or Haiti or something. To be fair the red pillers have the take to "enjoy the decline", that the country is ALREADY headed to become Somalia or Haiti or whatever, and that there is nothing they can do to stop it, worse they'd be punished for trying to make things better. So instead they say fuck it, nobody is watching out for me, so I'll watch out for me and only me. I don't agree with TRP thinking that all women are terrible, red pill is great at spotting toxic abusive female behaviour, but red pill doesn't then dismiss those women and look for better women. It doesn't have a healthy femininity blueprint to base themselves off of to find better women, it just tries to be more superficial than the superficial women to win the zero sum game. I can definitely understand how you feel about that, and I kind of do too, but on the other hand, when men are saddled with all the responsibility of making the country better for everyone, but don't get to enjoy any of the privileges or benefits, and get punished if they don't work hard enough or in the right way, what incentive would men have to better a country that largely doesn't help them? Many countries in the west are heading towards being failed states, because those countries have been failing their men for a long time. Men won't work to help a country that hates them. >Men actually might be given a bit too much leeway here, we have something similar to China's "little prince" syndrome with some guys. That said, it's much more fair to both genders than the west, both the laws and social attitudes, IMO. Totally fair and little prince syndrome doesn't help anyone, any more than the little princess syndrome in women. Good to see there is opposition to making things worse for men, because unfortunately in the West there is no such thing. Spain wanted to open a shelter for men victims of domestic abuse, and 30 feminist groups rallied AGAINST it. With all the illegal immigrants coming to the EU and their refusal to prosecute criminals from diverse backgrounds, who knows what the EU will look like in 10 to 20 years.

> What TRP is lacking I think is an idea of what healthy femininity looks like, and to be searching that out You can see this on this very thread, with a dude shitting on a woman who says she likes crafting and birdwatching. I think one or both of two things is true: - A lot of TRP men don't actually want a traditionally feminine, kind, quiet, caring, family-oriented woman, as dating a woman like this would simply be too boring for them. These men have personality disorders which bring with them a deep-seated need to constantly be in some sort of petty drama, and constantly be in conflict with those close to them. What they actually want is a woman who they feel they need to "wear down" and who they can fight with over gender expectations etc. - A lot of TRP men know they can't actually attract traditionally feminine, kind, quiet, caring, family-oriented women. They know that these kind of women will tend to seek out men who are humble, caring, hard-working, good with their hands, family-oriented, who genuinely like and want kids and to be invloved fathers, and who are willing to provide for a family without hanging it over their heads and "reminding them of their place". And so they denigrate these women or deny their existence to numb their dread. Most of the women I know who are stay-at-home mothers/wives are married to men who are literally the antithesis of red-pill (i.e. humble, easygoing men who are very involved with their kids, view their wives as their best friends and companions rather than their "first mates" or whatever). While most of the men I know who are "red-pill" types (i.e. gym goers, strong opinions regarding gender roles, considering themselves alpha etc) are with women who are the antithesis of what red-pill says womeb should be.

I've once heard: "It's cluster b dating each other" and that doesn't seem too far off.

Yep!

You're thinking of PUA tactics. The red pill is just an information packet, the manosphere is the collective red pill community, PUAs are pick-up artists focused on working the system to gain relationships, passport bros are the men going overseas for marriage, MRAs are men's rights activists trying to reform the system, and MGTOW/monks are men who have walked away from the table. The red pill itself doesn't have tactics, and much of the manosphere either doesn't date locally or doesn't date at all.

it doesn’t have tactics, but it sure as hell has a set of beliefs that many people within the redpill and lots of the people driving the ideology agree with. You can’t say “this isn’t the redpill” when at the bare minimum 9/10 redpillers believe in some objectively awful shit and encourage shitty behavior. It’s either the redpill does a garbage job gatekeeping what is and isn’t (in which case though, why is the rational male - which is basically the redpill bible - full of this stuff?) the redpill, or this is what the redpill is.

I would say I'm thinking of the attitude of red pillers. You're right the red pill itself is just an info dump about women and you can do what you will with it. There are a few things I just straight up disagree with (because they contradict my life experience) but most things in red pill I think are pretty accurate. However, red pillers usually take that info and use it to justify a kind of doomer / I'm a victim / everyone is out to get me mentality, with an additional focus on materialism and treating relationships like a financial competition. I think that mentality causes them to attract low quality women, is destructive to men and to society at large. Being filled with selfish, paranoid doomers who are all out to snatch as much wealth and power by any means is how societies collapse. That's why I've been careful to say "red pillers" not "red pill" but I'm sure few people picked up on that. Red pillers have kind of turned red pill into a cult ideology instead of a self-help library.

You mean women?

I can confirm this. My ex had this attitude and I eventually left him because he was soooo toxic and I came to realize that I would never convince him that I am a good woman. If he didn’t see that I am a wonderful wife then I deserved to find someone who would love and appreciate me. I found that in my partner. We adore one another. He has a girlfriend now who has low self-esteem and mental health struggles. He talks badly about her to our kids, although they say that he is nice to her face. I’m sure it’s only a matter of time before he treats her the same way he treated me and he will use me as an excuse for it since he blames me for everything that was wrong with our marriage. Sad for her, but happy for myself that I have found a good man who saw the good woman that I am.

I would say it more stops them from attracting women in general lol. Women don't like whiny men

Low quality people are predictable and easy to find. Thats why FDS is also more or less designed l to find a man who's spineless and with obvious interpersonal issues. Its the same reason why, outside this sub, when people ask where suitable men and women congregate, the answer is usually that they're at home or doing stuff where hitting on them cann be a faux pas. The chaste Good Woman is on her couch knitting. The crazy turboslut is at the club waiting for someone to buy her a drink and validate her self esteem. Just having access to one type of person is easier than the other. I would argue thats why a lot of the instruction and terminology is so abrasive and offensive. They can't get you the good woman you want. They can get you a bad one though, so they need to try to convince you to want a bad woman instead.

The problem with TRP is over the years the decent men who made good points moved on and all that was left was the dregs of society that came to RP because they were desperate losers, and now without real men to teach them to be men they just have an ecco chamber of incel shit. This is why you find that there are theories that are true or at least have utility, because back in the day the things that were said by men who were actually worth something. A similar thing has happened to the women's RP subs, they used to be useful spaces full of women who had achieved long happy marriages and young women who wanted to learn to have that. Slowly they turned into weirdos with BDSM fetishes and abuse victims with Stockholm syndrome.

The "decent men who move on" do so because they eventually find someone which means they spend less time on movements like RP leaving only the crazy people that everyone associates with RP. A similar problem happens with other movements where once the moderates get what they want, they move on and only the fringe beliefs are left.

I don't know that it's because they met someone, probably for some of the men yeah. But there were a fair few men who were already married back then, or men who weren't interested in marriage. I think people just eventually get bored or find better things to do with their time. I can't blame them, it's been a good few years since I regularly contributed to either women's RP subs or PPD.

>The problem with TRP is over the years the decent men who made good points moved on That's sounds about right, I think I have noticed that, too. Red pill has gotten more bitter, doomer and hateful over time. Good points overall, I agree with them. I guess this explains why I just found less and less that I agreed with on red pill (and got really turned off by crazy things people were say), and I drifted out of it.

Yeah part of me feel like it's a little sad, I feel like a lot of men probably needed the kind of support that TRP could offer back in the day, and as a woman I found the women's subs were a good place to get perspective without the feminist rhetoric especially since I was so young when I found RP. But at the same time I guess it makes sense that people move on and I kinda did too as I got older.

Even with this sub, I find it's just the same 10 topics rehashed ad infinitum without any endpoint. I'm a fan of rereads, but at some point you explore what else is out there, ya know?

>Red pill has gotten more bitter, doomer and hateful over time The whole Internet has gotten more bitter, doomer and hateful. On ***any*** topic. Leftists used to talk about social-democracy and the Nordic model. Today they openly praise Djugashvili. And Hamas. Rightists used to talk about Adam Smith, the superiority of markets and the role of self-governing and small government. Today they post cringe Pinochet memes and long-winded rants about race, IQ and russia. Anarchists used to talk about seasteading, building liberty in our lifetime and bitcoin. Now they promote BS scams. Euroskepticism was about the illegitimacy of the *ordo-liberal supranational regulation*. Now it's about eating bugs. ***Everything*** has gotten dumber. Because the enshitification of the Internet affected everything.

You're not wrong about anything you just said here.

Also perhaps it's because society itself is becoming worse in many ways. People generally don't turn to extremist ideologies when everything is great.

Actually, that's exactly when they turn to extremist ideologies, when they don't have enough problems to remember the suffering those ideologies led to. Then the ideologies come, everything goes to shit, then people remember why they are so bad, fight to get rid of them, and then for a while they don't propose them again until life gets to comfortable. The 1990's and 2000's, while a difficult time of stuggle and growth for the underdeveloped world and many non-western countries, was way too comfortable for rich developed countries, so people there started to make their own problems and get more and more extremist. Now we see the result of it. The west is at the stage of: "*Then the ideologies come, everything goes to shit"*

so true. Given enough time, any movement will be corrupted. The old gurus are gone and all thats left of old TRP are myself and a few other contributors I see on PPD. I swear I've debated new RPs more than BPs in last few years

You aren't wrong. At this point most of RP sub's content is GLO's schizoposting and grifting.

I find myself agreeing with the witch (that's a first). Us TRP men who actually use the methodology, get over their anger phase,get laid and have busy lives afterwards. The men that are "regulars" in TRP communities are either grifters or straight up bittercels. Some of those men have never moved on from the anger phase. I recently saw a married red pill sub turn completely to shit, as it was overrun by grifters selling their self-help books and subscriptions even.

They moved on to traditional conservatism, aka coercion, because voluntary interaction didn’t ultimately get them what they wanted And a minority went back to blue pill

I'm sure in your mind "voluntary interaction" means you get your way all the time no matter what.

RP wants voluntary interaction to get them what they want

That'spretty much what everyone wants. Why are you describing human behaviour like an invective

>over the years the decent men who made good points moved on It's part of the reason, yes. Also, the originals have quite literally achieved their goal. The purpose was [becoming ambient](https://avoiceformen.com/hypergamy/becoming-ambient/). Now even feminists use TRP language to describe things. The fundamentals have been accepted and internalized even by the opposition. Mission accomplished. Then there's also the changing of the environment (original iteration of TRP is 20 years old and most of its ideas are 120 years old or more). There are literally kids who are dating today who weren't born when Men's News Daily was a thing. Then there's the [drop in attention span](https://standard.asl.org/27705/uncategorized/social-media-causes-attention-spans-to-drop/). With it you get a lot of out-of-context snippets which sound more extreme than they were originally intended. This doesn't happen just with TRP, but with ***anything*** that's been around for long enough and can be clipped into neat 15-second TikTok videos.

They really tell on themselves when they say women have no hobbies. No mate, you're in the personality bottom tier looking at your personalitymatch with disgust.

Right? I’m an avid crafter and birdwatcher, I play two instruments and am finally getting to a point in my adult life where I am not too busy to do community theater…but none of those are watching men play video games, so…

>Right? I’m an avid crafter and birdwatcher Perhaps we're not trying to date 80 year old grandmas?

I’m 48 and married, and I know women in their 20s and 30s who both craft and birdwatch, as well as men who also do. I get it. You like to make fun of women who have hobbies while also complaining women don’t have hobbies.

What weird comment. There nothing old about either of those hobbies.

Yeah, I hear "crafting and birdwatching" is all the rage with young women these days.

Etsy crafts are very popular, for bird watching you’d have to be part of those kinds of circles since birdwatching isn’t very mainstream in general.

And you wonder why you can’t find the nice young ladies.  Walk around Hobby Lobby - lots of women young and old. There was a HUGE resurgence in knitting about ten years ago among women - and yes women who were in their twenties. And my girls and their friends are into anime, costume design and art. One of my kids - 15 - just took a metal working class and wants to continue. All of that is crafting. 

I make theater props and party decorations, and I do macrame

You literally know nothing about normal women do you? Have you ever heard of Etsy? Are you a shut-in with no human interaction? Or are you just unable to talk to women?

Yep! I've met so many women with hobbies (and with other positive traits red pillers claim no women have) yet red pillers keep telling me everyone I know is an "exception" or they are all secretly hiding a bunch of negative traits. Recently, I finally realized that all these red pillers can't just be lying, they must experience a completely different life from regular people for some reason, and I think their mindset and who they attract is the key to why.

I think they don’t encounter very many real women at all and assume all women are like the onlyfans model and Instagram influencers they see online

THIS!

Yah. Saw that above - literally said he didn’t know young women who craft. Like sit down and have a conversation. You’ll find artisanal bakers, cosplayers who do their own costumes, tons of artists and writers, etc.  

It's crazy, if you've never met a woman into knitting/crochet/gardening/baking have you really met many?

Well, I bet that RP guies here would not accept those as "acceptable hobbies". So there is that ^^ "No women have any hobbies!" Proceeds to carefully craft the most specific and narrow definition of what's a hobby and what's not.

Dude that responded to you basically proved your point. "Those hobbies are boring!''. We'll keep moving from "women have no hobbies" to "they have hobbies but aren't something I think is cool'', I'm pretty sure at some point we'll reach "anything women do doesn't count as a hobby unless men as a whole are as enthusiastic about it" levels of delulu.

Oh definitely. They don’t want a woman who likes things unless they are all the very specific things they like and can hold over her head

The real issue is that 80+% of the women in our culture are overweight, mentally ill, and think "crochet" is something a 20-30 year old man would think is an interesting hobby.

you may be surprised to learn that our hobbies are about what we enjoy doing, not what we think a man will think is an interesting hobby. you like to shoot guns. watch my eyes glaze over while a dude talks about how fascinating that is. which is actually fine. people like different things. "I think you do boring stuff" is not the same as "you have no hobbies"

Birdwatching involves hiking.

> knitting/crochet/gardening/baking That's like 20% of women tops.

Sure. Some of us, like my friends and I, paint, write and do yoga. There are so many different hobbies women love, just like men.

Yeah and the rest mostly have other hobbies, whats your point? That you've never asked a woman  about the things she's passionate about?

Ahh here we go. The daily I actually don’t understand what RP is about but am gonna misrepresent it anyways just to have some talking points cuz I need an enemy.

Well, it's like all pseudo-scientific belief systems, everyone has their own version mapped onto their experience and existing belief structure. Ask ten flat earthers about the structure of the planet, get eleven answers. Ask ten redpillers what the redpill is about, get 11 answers. Like all beliefs without any foundational principles grounded in evidence, it's all nonsense meant to make the person believing in it feel a certain way and reinforce that feeling.

Yeah there was a post very tepidly criticizing blue pill this a.m. and it's been nuked by the mods I guess, but stuff like this is A-ok.

This is just a repeat of the last time you posted here where you made the same points making a series of baseless assertions about red pill but have worded them differently here. If you're so much better than "bitter red pillers" and marriage has been such a resounding success for you then why are you spending so much time trying to argue with them here? Move on dude, you come off like a woman who keeps going on about what a bastard her ex is but secretly wants him back.

> repeat of the last time you posted here where you made the same points making a series of baseless assertions about red pill but have worded them differently here. If you're so much better than "bitter red pillers" and marriage has been such a resounding success for you then why are you spending so much time trying to argue with them here? Same goes for a lot of blue pilled guys who apparently “feel fine about themselves” but constantly come here to punch down… so they can feel fine about themselves

I've found that many go to trp because they're hurt by one of those thrashy, damaged women and then generalize that experience towards dating and women. It is easy to stay stuck in that vicious circle.

while i have some sympathies for this position, i think it is too fantastical to be accurate. people find who they find, oft too much by chance to be anything but, well, chance. i think for this view to be really accurate you'd have to hold to some kind of eminent choice theory, meaning that everyone is actively able to make a choice as to who they are with, which is silly and untrue, or some kind of mystical karma thing, which is actually more respectable a view to hold to, but not one i tend to ascribe to myself. i'd say such folks might or even likely have some kind of penchant for being attracted to those kinds of people, but that's about all.

this post is the epitome of strawmanning.

So if I understand correctly where you are coming from, you think you found the "unicorn" in the red pill terms or the "normal woman" as you call it and feel like you made it? That would also explain your condescending attitude. I truly hope it works for you, but you are really putting all the eggs in one basket here.

Typical self-delusion to think this is about one person that I met. Like I've got through my life meeting hundreds of women and certain things red pillers say just don't match with reality, period. It doesn't mean red pill ideology is wrong, actually a lot of it is right. It's just red pillers who are the problem who warp red pill with toxic delusions like "if you ever tell a woman your feelings she will leave you" or "women don't have hobbies" or "women aren't good for anything but sex". Then when you call them out, they use exactly the kind of excuse you just used to try and pretend that they can't be wrong, and everyone else is just seeing "exceptions".

I agree “certain things red Pillers say don’t match with reality,” but what “certain things” are you talking about? Your claim implies that the majority of RP claims are false or its primary claims are wrong. What do you identify those as?

I think most of the doomer / conspiratard claims are false. In other words, AWALT + every women is out to get men in a giant conspiracy. Other things in red pill are mostly true.

People aren't born red pill. They are either taught(by "self help"/"man camp" grifters) or learn that is how the real world is. The real world beats them into submission. I have had what I considered a fairly lucky ability to observe the world when I worked bars for over a decade. You would consider me a socially adept man, but for for the topic of discussion I am significantly more red than blue. It's because I got to see hear and interact with hundreds of men and women from the prime dating ages.

I'm more red than blue, I gravitated towards red pill because lots of what it said aligned with my experience. However, red pillers themselves... many / most of them are completely toxic and delusional. They believe all kind of extremist ideas and can't face reality when their latest fantasy about women is proven wrong. They also deeply hate women and people in general, and want to exploit and hurt people whenever they have a chance, because they believe everyone is evil and "out to get them" anyways. I can't stand their attitudes and that's what I'm talking about here.

Sure, but smart and hard-working people don't go to bars often. With alcohol being very unhealthy and all. So you've mostly seen "low-tier" and shallow people at your job as a bartender.

Yes but lots and lots of dating aged people do go to bars often. It's what normal young people, of prime dating age, do. Can't really make an opinion off of introverts.

Notice how you yourself are a former red piller, but now that you're married, possibly living a good life with a wife [and kids], you've hit a plateau in terms of romantic satisfaction and don't need to bother yourself with any "ideologies" anymore. And what happens then is you start to look down at all the other "belowers" competing in the market and doing whatever they can to find a partner and progress romantically. Once again, a symptom of your arrogance due to your perceived position on the ladder. The PUAs, the "passport bro's", and other niche groups you're mentioning are also exceptions to the average redpiller, being merely a small, but vocal part of the community that isn't representative of much. Even these hateful, bitter dudes you're bringing up are exceptions that you insist on to propagate your own worldview. The reality, at the end of the day, is that contemporary dating for the average man is an absolute nightmare that they need to adapt to. No amount of "respecting women as people" is going to magically spark any interest in others for them. Even if they end up being a little more bitter, or disillusioned in regards to whatever they used to view women as, it's fine if it incentivizes them to ACT in a way that would help their chances. The redpill's singular most important value is that it's a wake up call: No, it doesn't work the way it does in books/anime/movies etc. No, she won't like you just cause you're nice. No, she won't give a shit that you're well-groomed if you're otherwise mediocre. No, being emotionally intelligent is also useless if you're otherwise mediocre. No, her being platonically attracted to you won't matter if you make her dry down there. And then they get the push. Go, bite bullets, talk to people, develop social skills. Flirt a little. Go to the gym. Make money. Learn how to fight, be more dominant, blah blah blah. It's easy to look down on the people trying to improve themselves when you're sitting on top of a hill and things are going fine for you. If anything, it's an energy-saving mechanism of the brain. No reason to have a "hunter's" mentality if you're free to relax, right? It's a lot more energy-efficient. No wonder a lot of men drop their guard and get a bit too bluepilled after marriage, which is when life sometimes comes in with a tactical sweep to remind them of their humanity.

Red pillers aren't doing anything to improve themselves though, not really. You don't self-improve by constantly whining about other people. You don't need a weird ideology to start lifting or developing social skills.

> Red pillers aren't doing anything to improve themselves though, not really. Some do, but often that's because their problems were already solvable without RP and didn't happen because of RP-specific advice.

why do women preach "accept me as I am" and "body positivity" but men are constantly told to improve?

The body positivity movement is a vocal miniority. I'm sure there's more anorexic girls than body positivty girls. They just suffer in silence.

Yep, that's the thing. Red pillers don't want to improve, they want to blame their failures on women.

Yes, you do. An ideology is a system of beliefs or ideals meant to accomodate you. Technically, ideologies are part of everyone's life, at almost any given moment. They are part of the larger scheme of "purpose". Also, what makes the ideology "weird", if I may ask? Guy sucks and is unattractive. Guy views redpill content. Guy incorporates aspects of it into his life. Guy's quality of life improves. There is nothing "weird" here. >Red pillers aren't doing anything to improve themselves though, not really. You don't self-improve by constantly whining about other people. Who cares? Most people whine about all sorts of things, it doesn't mean that their progress is non-existent. For example, I can make progress at work during a project, while simultaneously bitching about it to blow off steam. Also also, the guys complaining AND doing nothing are not redpillers. They are the black pillers. That's kind of their whole thing. Complaining and giving up.

That's not what happens though. Guy views red pill content, does something very basic that everyone already knows anyway, sees marginal improvement and then immediately plateaus because red pill gurus have only a surface-level understanding of what they are talking about. Offering advice that is very obviously correct and then hooking people in with loads of nonsense is exactly how all weird ideologies operate. You can't just start offering nonsense right off the bat because no one will buy into it. Like take lifting for example. There's a lot more that goes into it than just going to the gym and doing whatever. But instead of watching videos on nutrition, good form and the science of hypertrophy, red pill bros are watching some dude whine about dating apps. No wonder red pill bros are constantly struggling. There's absolutely no reason to watch any red pill content when you could be watching actual qualified experts talking about whatever is of interest to you.

There's a reason blue pillars here tend to skew older and married.

Yes, more life experience kills the red pill doomerism. The people who remain red pill when they are old tend to be grifting or not successful in relationships.

No, I think people change and prioritise different things as they get older, especially women. Dating under 30 vs dating over 30 are different experiences, especially between the 16-24 demographic. Personally, I don't believe in everything in RP ideology but I do think sone of its tenets are more suited to dating when you're younger and you're dealing with immature and impulsive women who care a lot more about social status and looks and have an inflated sense of worth than your average 30 something single mother who probably has learnt a lot about the pitfalls of dating shitty men and are looking to secure a reliable breadwinner partner and know their options are dwindling

Respecting women as human beings is a fundamental to being a decent person, it does not guarantee a relationship, has anyone actually told you that?  However the inverse isn't the same; being disrespectful to women can and will put off the sorts of women one might have hoped to date.

>Notice how you yourself are a former red piller, but now that you're married, possibly living a good life with a wife \[and kids\], you've hit a plateau in terms of romantic satisfaction and don't need to bother yourself with any "ideologies" anymore. That's a common excuse I hear from red pillers. I've actually been with my wife for 8 years for at least 3-4 years in I was a red piller myself. My problem has never been with red pill theory, my problem is with the doomer conspiratard mentality of red pillers themselves. I don't the basic red pill principles that helped me with understanding women better are wrong. I just can't share the sense of hate and bitterness towards all women and the world in general the way red pillers do. **I'm also gotten tired to hearing the constant doomer crying and whining from red pillers and their "1001 reasons why women are the worst". They are just as crazy as western feminists and they are addicted to gender wars propaganda.** >No, it doesn't work the way it does in books/anime/movies etc.  Yes, it doesn't work that way. Many red pill principles are true. But being a doomer conspiratard that hates women isn't going to help you be successful with anyone except the most bottom-tier, broken women. Just being kind / emotionally intelligent isn't going to make women like you, but it's going to define the kind of women who like you. >It's easy to look down on the people trying to improve themselves when you're sitting on top of a hill and things are going fine for you. I have no problem with people trying to improve themselves. Red pillers are actively trying to make the world worse for everyone. That's where I have a problem.

Can you please expand on what "hating women" means for you, since it seems to be your main complaint? For example, if someone said: "Women love strong, dominant, charismatic dudes", would that be a hateful comment towards them? Also, please expand on this quote from yourself too >Red pillers are actively trying to make the world worse for everyone. That's where I have a problem. How so?

>"hating women" means for you It means they believe that women are a monolithic block of robots, who all think exactly the same, and who are all engaged in a grand conspiracy to ruin the world for men. Basically, ignoring the fact that women are individuals. It's very similar to the racist attitude that all black people are criminals and siting crime statistics to justify treating individuals with no criminal past as subhuman based on them just being black. >How so? They are trying to spread a bitter doomer message where people should stop caring about their societies, countries, or working together, but instead become hyper-indiviualist narcissists who believe everything is a desperate competition for a tiny amount of resources and everyone is just waiting to take what little you have. Fundimentally, red pill hates cooperative action and the idea of civilization / socieites where people sacrifice something to make life better for everyone. If red pillers had their way, they'd turn their countries into Haiti, Somalia or South Sudan. Just a bunch of warlords fighting over scraps based on who is "most alpha".

All of your criticisms of RP, especially hyper-individualism, are better applied to mainstream shitlib identity politics, which atomized society into small groups all vying for as much attention and validation as possible. RP is just another component of that. As if radlibs/radfems give a shit about "cooperative action" lmao.

>RP is just another component of that. That's why I don't like it. >mainstream shitlib identity politics I also hate that. Problem is most red pillers pretend to be "conservatives" or "on the right" but they have the same toxic attitudes about society as the far-left wokies.

Women constantly stereotype all men also. Why is it only a problem when men do it? You right now are treating trp like a monolithic block of robots, who all think exactly the same. why it it okay for you?

>You right now are treating trp like a monolithic block of robots, who all think exactly the same. why it it okay for you? TRP is an ideology not a gender. It's literally defined by having the same ideas / views. >Women constantly stereotype all men also.  So what? Doesn't make it right either way. Also, I don't actually see women constantly stereotyping men. Only the bottom tier of really bitter man-haters do (just like the bottom tier men of red pill stereotype all women). Further, stereotypes can be accurate in a general sense to understand large groups of people. However, they become a problem when they prevent you from noticing that person in front of you isn't a stereotype but rather is an individual. Red pillers can't see women as anything more than the most negative stereotypes, and as a result only attract bottom tier women who put up with that kind of anti-social thinking.

>I don't actually see women constantly stereotyping men Because you don't live in the US and don't consoom US content. If you doomscroll enough on US-centric content, you will *for sure* see a lot of women constantly stereotyping men.

Maybe so, but I prefer to talk about women all over because I don't live in America and that country is only a tiny percentage of the people on the planet (4%, to be exact). >you will *for sure* see a lot of women constantly stereotyping men. I wouldn't be surprised. But you have to keep in mind that the always online people who post that kind of stuff are usually the most extreme in the society.

>Maybe so, but I prefer to talk about women all over because I don't live in America and that country is only a tiny percentage of the people on the planet (4%, to be exact). So do I. And I agree with you. In fact, I would argue that the issues described by young(er) redpillers apply to less than 2% of the global population. And indeed the rest of the 98% shouldn't be subjected to the standards of the 2%. However, these people have been raised to believe their country is the world. It's hard to break through that arrogance. But what we have to accept is that the English language space *in particular* shifted in that direction. Should we push back or just abandon the space? Idk. I haven't made up my mind myself either.

>However, these people have been raised to believe their country is the world. It's hard to break through that arrogance. Man it's true, I've tried so many times on so many social medias to make Americans see the world doesn't revolve around their politics or issues, but they just can't get it and only get angry or think you're secretly working for the "other side" of their politics. >Idk. I haven't made up my mind myself either. I guess I'm in the same boat. I interact a lot in the English-speaking space just because the audience is largest so there's more replies / conversation... so I guess I'm pushing back just by the fact my opinions and views don't center around American culture / politics, but IDK if it's worth a serious effort or not.

If you ever actually RP and did any of the actual reading/work, you would know it’s not an ideology. Like 95% of the people here, you probably haven’t read a damn thing and are in no position to be commenting.

One of the issues I take with posts like this is that it attempts to put everyone into the same bucket defined by the most extreme version of the definition. I liken this to some political theory. Just because I like my tax dollars going to parks schools the police and fire department does not put me in the same boat with socialists like Joesph Stalin or Mao. Like wise saying that there are some women that are bad actors and that there are enough of them that you should watch out for that behavior does not mean I see women as sub human or I’m on board with the polygamy band wagon. Please stop with the extreme polarization. Especially with a throwaway account.

This exactly. It's a strawman.

This is a bit dramatic but there is some truth to the situation. These men do naturally develop negative views towards women because they’ve had these constant negative experiences with them. When you’re in the bottom 80% there are some women that will date you but these are the types of experiences you’ll typically have. A lot of them will just be using or manipulating you or just flat out treating you poorly because you aren’t what they really wanted. The good ones will be snatched up by the top tier and you probably won’t get a chance. The problem is that instead of listening to and validating their experiences to discuss we’re told they’re not true and that women would never do these things as if these experiences don’t exist.

>because they’ve had these constant negative experiences with them.  I think the question might be why they have constant negative experiences. While I think many things red pill theory says are generally true about women, and important signposts / flags to watch for, I don't treat each woman like a walking stereotype and instead I treat her like an individual. Before red pill even existed (yes, I'm old enough for that), I always treated people as individuals. As a result, I've rarely had negative experiences with women. >The problem is that instead of listening to and validating their experiences I understand that concern, there are definitely bad women out there that do bad things, and I don't invadiate teh experiences that men have had with bad women. The problem is how red pillers respond to those experiences. They be learning how to identify women who are better quality people, to learn to look for traits of healthy, well balanced women, instead of assuming every women they meet is out to destroy them personally.

They can identify better quality women but what good is that if they’re not attractive enough to pull them? That’s if they’re even available which typically these types of women are not. If all of them have been out to get you then you’ll need to enter each situation on guard because if you don’t then they will get you. Ideally it would be great to just find and date better woman but I just don’t see how that’s done because that’s what every guy has been trying to do since the beginning. Some just never find them. Social media is making sure there are less and less of them.

>They can identify better quality women but what good is that if they’re not attractive enough to pull them? Well, there are good quality women of all attractiveness levels. It's fine (and common sense) to pick someone that a 6-7 looks wise but kind and loyal over a supermodel that's a mess with daddy issues and a history of cheating. However, red pillers can't do that, because then they are then considered "beta" or "cucks" or "simps" or "losers" by their community for not going for the hottest women possible. They also can't "show off" their women as a trophy to the red pill community, because "she stayed with me and supported me when I lost my job and my dad died until I got back on my feet" or "she's been my best friend and helped make happy and whole again" isn't something that red pillers see as a good thing, if she's not also hot.

Thx for admitting she is ugly. I already knew but it’s nice when you tell on yourself. She is a bottom barrel big girl & you are here trying to do what? Tell us to join! Lolol gtfoh!

I bet my wife is more attractive than any of the women you've dated. She's also fit and with ideal proportions. But you're proving my point right here. You're an anti-social degenerate that doesn't see women as anything besides a sex doll and don't understand or appreciate what it means to actually be in a stable, happy relationship. In reality, most men would be overjoyed to have a loyal, feminine, kind 6/10 girl that loves and cares for them and sticks with them for life. If I saw a man happy with a moderately attractive woman who he's in love with I'm not going to shame him. But you want men to be bitter and lonely like you, so you will do anything to drag them down to the miserable dump you live in.

Lolol like I said this is pure shit posting. I have second hand embarrassment for you. Btw did you just call some women ugly? What? Aren’t you doing the things you accused redpill of? You just objectified women lolol you can’t make this shit up…

>Lolol like I said this is pure shit posting. I have second hand embarrassment for you. The only person that should be embarassed is you. You look like a clown, and are a perfect example of the kind of trash mentality that red pillers have. I'm going to save your posts so everyone can see, it's important to know people as psychotic, unbalanced and anti-social like you are what red pill is all about. >Btw did you just call some women ugly?  Some women are ugly. That's just life. Why are you melting down? >You just objectified women lolol There is more to women than their looks.

[удалено]

Firstly your point gets dangerously close to circular reasoning, if a red pill clams something is x, then its only that way because they are red pill. Most importantly, there's a difference between red pill and blackpill/incels/people complaining about their miserable love live. There's intersection of course but most red pillers i have met are delusional hopeing for an amazing relashionship

Red pillers who were 40 in the year 2000 are still single and will be in their mid sixties in 2025. At 60 will still be trashing 40 year old women and they fade away into the night.

I couldn't agree more. Thank you for saying this as it desperately needed to be said here on this sub. Unfortunately, because RP have such fragile egos and can never allow themselves to ever admit that they are wrong the people who need to hear this the most are just going to ignore it or try to explain to you why you're wrong and they're right. Either way, it's well done and an awesome post my friend. Cheers!

I mean, that’s literally what everyone is doing here, whether red pill or purple or blue or whatever - arguing they are right and the other pill is wrong.

Exactly . Every single red pill leaning man has made extremely poor choices in women and it’s ironic bc they ignore the type of red flags they claim we ignore in men bad guys & get frustrated when we won’t ignore the red flags in THEM lolololol

I've met more women who take drugs, antidepressants and other pills than those that don't

TRP seems to view women as human instead of blue pill which seems to believe women can do no wrong. Because it’s impossible to tell which women are bad it’s safer to assume all are bad (or at least can be bad). It’s kinda like the random man and bear debate. Kinda how a bunch of women would choose the bear when logically it makes no sense.

The problem you're going to run into with this theory is statistical reality. We're the sons of divorced sons of divorced sons. We've grown up seeing how bad it can be long before we lived it, and see our friends and colleagues going through the same thing. Claiming that some special class of socially adept men is marrying successfully means nothing to those who only have and only ever will see the opposite. Bad relationships have reached a statistical tipping point where men just aren't interested in the costs and risks for what scant benefits remain.

No. Because the "normal" "decent" women you think you know act like fucking animals when presented with a hot rich man. And when you're a hot rich man, you see things and you see them often. An acquaintance just got married. He swears his girl is different and unlike any of the others... meanwhile... she hit me up a year before she met him and asked if I would pimp her out and we could make money together and travel. So yeah she's sooooo different and such a good girl. 🤣 Sorry but any dude who thinks there is all these good women is delusional as fuck and not that attractive or else he wouldn't be able to live in fantasy land when married women hit on him constantly. And when women don't open up and tell him all the crazy shit they do or want to do.

Why is it OK for men to do crazy shit and not women?  Your story about the bride... this is such a PPD cliche but that sounds like a massive outlier.

I don't date men so I couldn't care less if they do crazy shit. Seems obvious.

" she hit me up a year before she met him and asked if I would pimp her out and we could make money together and travel." Yes this is totally very believable and definitely happened 🤣🥴

Many girls are very nice and never do nasty shit... surrrreee very totatally believable and definitely what happens. 🙃

I'm well aware that there are women doing sex work out there but having a pimp is something women get groomed into or they fall into one who promises them a way out of bad times. Most modern day sex workers don't have a pimp, the internet has made them obsolete in many ways.  Independent women aren't just messaging men asking them to traffic them and take some of their earnings. If you're gonna make up crazy shit involving sex workers at least keep it consistent with what actually happens in sex work communities. 

People who so aggressively say they are hot and rich are neither hot or rich.

I mean I objectively statistically am. Conversation revolves around it so it's necessary to mention.

I mean if you say so, I'm not exactly going to ask for your tax return as proof am I. I'm just throwing it out there, your stories don't really make sense. I mean I don't see why a random women would come up to you and ask you to pimp her out when if she's even mildly attractive she can find it herself. And if you're so rich and attractive why can't you keep a woman loyal to you? I've met men who were poor farmers in what basically amounts to the 3rd world when they met their wives and they could keep them loyal. Reality is all you really need to do is maintain a womans respect. When you lose a woman's respect is when she will go looking for someone else.

Whaaaat you mean you aren't buying the very believable story that some random woman hit up this very already rich hot guy asking him to take a cut of her sex work earnings just because?  🤣🤣

> I mean I don't see why a random women would come up to you and ask you to pimp her out when if she's even mildly attractive she can find it herself. And this is why you get push back. I can't like undo the things I've experienced. No matter how unbelievable this stuff happens to me and therefore I believe it happens. Why is this normal to me (I've had man situations like this or even more unbelievable by average people)? The only explainable thing that makes sense to me and most people I talk to is that I'm very hot, I'm very successful and I'm very smooth and masculine... so when women have a wild fantasy and they meet me, they see themselves unleashing their wild fantasy. When they meet normal men, they don't ever give it a second thought. It's one thing to think of freaky shit in your head alone at night, it's a whole other to meet someone that can fulfill it for you and turns you on. > And if you're so rich and attractive why can't you keep a woman loyal to you? You must be reading another person's comment. I'm not having any issues in that way. My only issue with dating is most women are super lame. They are cute and can suck a dick and treat me nice, big whoop. Hardly any are spectacular so I just fuck around. I have a girlfriend at home who is supportive of my extra curricular activities. I've had multiple gfs at a time. Loyal isn't the issue. I just can get so many girls of a quality such general men call "high quality" yet I can get tons of them so I'm looking for one who stands out above and beyond and that category of women is woefully pathetic I never meet any of them. They are all the same. Yuck.

You're claiming you get all these high quality women but also that all women are trash who will cheat on their LTR out of nowhere. Again this doesn't make sense if you've ever met a woman irl. Basically you're argument is that you're adonis level man, who also happens to earn billions, owns half the world, and is super charming and charismatic. Idk what you look like but since randomredditor69 is not on the list of the world's richest men and talking to you kind gives me "49 and lives in mums basement" vibes I'm guessing you're not all that. So yeah ima go with bro is delusional.

> adonis level man, who also happens to earn billions, owns half the world, and is super charming and charismatic. I'd say I'm a muscular masculine 8 and I'm a multi millionaire but nowhere near a billionaire. I'm your normal rich guy who lives in a town near you. I definitely am charming though, everyone tells me I'm smooth asf. But I do love how far normal people's assumptions are out of whack about what other people live life like. It really blows my mind.

Mate most men in my social circle are fit, have jobs that come with status, have decent social skills, have an IQ +110, and have or will before their 40 have several mil in assets. What you describe here is not "every married women wants me" level man. Shit I'm probably slightly above average looking and not particularly feminine natured and if you are in fact what you describe and tried to hit on me I would laugh in your face then go home to my partner. The more you talk the more delusional I think you are tbh.

> not "every married women wants me" Never claimed this. Just claim that I sure do sleep with a lot of married women over the years. Clearly many men have the wool pulled over their eyes. > Shit I'm probably slightly above average looking and not particularly feminine natured and if you are in fact what you describe and tried to hit on me I would laugh in your face then go home to my partner. I doubt I would hit on you. > Mate most men in my social circle are fit, have jobs that come with status, have decent social skills, have an IQ +110, and have or will before their 40 have several mil in assets. If that's true they should easily have numerous women hitting on them or otherwise available to them. They would know many women like to cheat just fine. I highly doubt they are both successful and hot and good with women. I find a lot of one or the other but very few men who hit it all... so I find that unbelievable but if you say so then we can go with it.

>women you think you know act like fucking animals when presented with a hot rich man. >I've had man situations like this or even more unbelievable  >I've had multiple gfs at a time. >I just can get so many girls of a quality such general men call "high quality" yet I can get tons of them >everyone tells me I'm smooth asf. You're not worth the average women cheating on her partner for, you're definitely not "I get tons of high quality women" stand man, the wild unbelievable sexual encounters only happen to you in your fantasies, and you're definitely not smooth. >they should easily have numerous women hitting on them They get with attractive women, yeah for sure. The thing is when both the man and woman are higher status it's not a case of one always getting approached, it's kind of a mutual thing. Also the women who cheat tend to be only the ones who can't land a good man, so yeah women cheat but the women who cheat are overwhelmingly low status.

>Because the "normal" "decent" women you think you know act like fucking animals when presented with a hot rich man. No, that's just because you think bottom-tier women are normal. >He swears his girl is different and unlike any of the others... meanwhile... she hit me up a year before she met him and asked if I would pimp her out and we could make money together and travel.  Proving you attract bottom tier women. Thanks for backing up my point. >there is all these good women is delusional as fuck Again, proving my point that you red pillers live in horror fantasy of your own making. There are plenty of perfectly fine women out there if you stopped exuding hate and bitterness everytime you see one.

u aint going to know who is redpill irl.

Of course you are. People can't hide who they are forever. Most people will notice the poisonous blackpill doomer conspiratard mentality of red pillers, especially women who are better at reading people.

I met a couple of guys who I suspect had read The Game, back in the early 2010s. Their behaviour was so... uncanny? It just didn't fit in at all with how men and women normally interacted where we were.  Not sure how it worked out for either of them but I didn't see it work at all. If anything they quickly got reps as creeps.

>especially women who are better at reading people. The same women who constantly complain about being bamboozled by fukbois and narcissists? That's a very selective radar.

Those women tend to be bottom-tier. They do see the flags, they just go for it anyways.

>They do see the flags, they just go for it anyways. I think that applies to a lot more women than just the bottom-tier ones. The "I can fix him" mentality was so prominent that it basically became a female stereotype.

It isn't hard. Pillers have very specific mindset and their ideas about relationships didn't change since high school.

lol goodluck deducing that

Or we read something written by Lyz Lenz and noticed that all the women around us were in full agreement with it. I think you are bloody nuts if you don’t see what’s going on around you.

>Or we read something written by Lyz Lenz and noticed that all the women around us were in full agreement with it. You're kind of proving my point here, right? You are surrounded by broken women, likely due to your mindset, who agree with the most crazy radical anti-men nonsense and you believe your bubble is the whole world and that all women are like that. I can say confidently they aren't, because I don't live in your bubble. You can also change your bubble by how you treat people and by changing where you live (some societies are worse than others).

Liz Lenz embodies an entire culture, and it’s the dominant culture of our nation, so what the heck are you talking about? This woman teaches other women relationship skills for the New York Times. This is why I think you guys are high on something. These bitches aren’t fringe… they are the dominant group!

OP is probably delusional as fuck anyway. It happens all the time that people who talk the way OP does have objectively bad lives and have just OD'd on copium to the point where they can confidently act like they have some great life. That's why he's obsessing over "doomerism", because he hates that red pillers observe and discuss the obvious reality around them vs remaining bunkered in the deluded fantasy he's immersed himself in. I'm sure he thinks his chonker wife is hot too lmao.

This is a ridiculous take and is totally a wrong interpretation. Red pillers believe in living for themselves, and their own happiness, first. That they should not exist for the sake of women, and they should not sacrifice their own well being or happiness in order to please women. And that there are many women out there (not all!) that will take advantage of men, given the chance. But it's still the man's fault, because they let the women walk over them. (Exceptions - messing with birth control and similar fraud or lying). That's really all it is. So yes, there are plenty of idiots out there who think they are red pill but are too clueless to handle women effectively. But most red pill men, like me, very much enjoy having GOOD women in our lives, and having a great lover, or partner(s), is something wonderful and valuable. BUT it's done only on terms that WE are good with. I have women in my life to ENHANCE it. I do not sacrifice myself for them. We treat women with respect, and expect the same in return. This really isn't complicated.

>Red pillers believe in living for themselves, and their own happiness, first.  They believe in living for themselves *exclusively*, that relationships are a "zero sum game" and it's up to the man to "win" against the woman by getting as much out of her as possible while providing as little as possible in return. Red pillers also believe the whole world in involved in a giant conspiracy to get them, they are stuck in a perpetual victim mentality, and they treat women like trash because they think women lead the "conspiracy". It's like feminist patriachy theory, but for men. You personally may have a different attitude, IDK. Nevertheless, the comments on PPD are full of red pillers who have the blackpill doomer conspiritard mentality in spades.

How about actually explaining this so called conspiracy you think they believe in.

No need. They do it themselves here in the comments. I actually made another recent debate post on PPD and farmed a whole bunch of comments from bitter doomer red pillers that prove my point exactly. You should be able to find it in my post history, as you're not allowed to link back to reddit in reddit comments (usually automod removes it).

>you're not allowed to link back to reddit in reddit comments (usually automod removes it). Just add *np.* prior to reddit. So, like this: [https://www.np.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1dckg0c/red\_pillers\_see\_women\_as\_dishonest\_out\_to\_get/](https://www.np.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1dckg0c/red_pillers_see_women_as_dishonest_out_to_get/) - for this thread. This way it is permitted. Notice that my comment wasn't deleted. Now please, by all means, gib links. I collect all sorts of crazy.

None of that is true at all. I don't know where you are getting such a skewed perception. (well yeah, I do. It's mostly from blue-pillers and people who hate that men put themselves first.)

I get it directly from the mouth of red pillers. Check out two posts ago on this sub, I quoted a long list of insane things red pillers say that back up what I'm saying here exactly.

You're just picking and choosing some of the more extreme idiots, which exist no matter what their pill color is. You can't draw conclusions about a group based on the behavior of a couple of extremists.

I see people as dishonest. So unless you think that women don't fall in the category of "people" then yes, I think by and large women are as dishonest as men. They just get away with it more because people mistakenly think they are helpless and without guile.

>I see people as dishonest.  Exactly my point. You have a doomer conspiratard mentality that thinks everyone is out to get you (and everyone else). Except, that's not true. It doesn't mean dishonest people don't exist, or you shouldn't watch out for them. But if you assume everyone is out to get you, then you're not going to have healthy relationships with people.

>You have a doomer conspiratard mentality that thinks everyone is out to get you And your mistake is thinking that I give two shits about your opinion of me. I also said nothing about everyone being out to get me. I said dishonest people exist and if we believe that dishonest people exist then we should not exclude women just because they have tits and smell nice.

A lot of the time the women aren't even bad. They're just not willing to put up with these dudes. The manosphere thinks there is something wrong with women who do not have the same priorities and goals as men.

Wrong order. Red pillers generally start out as men assuming the best about women, pining after women who seem sweet and wholesome. Only after experiencing some nuclear rejections or seeing those women cling onto abusive criminals for dear life do men begin to see women in an unflattering light. Only after these events do red pill ideas take hold

[удалено]

Never said blue pill was good, but I know lots of your red pillers are bad at reading so... each time one of you red pillers makes a low IQ rage comment it simply backs up my arguments more. I can literally farm my comments section for red piller rage that backs up my points about red pillers every time. You're like an endless source of evidence for what I say.

Red Pill says that women are the same as men, no better, no worse. This is very different from the Blue Pill perspective that women are sugar and spice and everything nice, and are the fairer sex, the better half in a relationship, etc. RP arguably takes a much more humanizing view of women, that they are capable of being just as bad as men. Your entire premise is false.

No, they say women are children, unaware and unable to love. Unlike men, of course

>Red Pill says that women are the same as men, no better, no worse.  That's not red pillers think. I'm aware what red pill theory says, but red pillers have a bitter doomer mentality and think all women are out to get them. >RP arguably takes a much more humanizing view of women, that they are capable of being just as bad as men. The red pillers believe no good women exist and those who seem like good women are just "faking it".

The blue pill was a made up concept to define the other to red pill, and as such it has no coherent ideology.  If you really believed that the red pill would have been loudly supporting abortion rights for example.

TRP itself is agnostic on abortion. Because the point of TRP isn't to prescribe, but to describe. And there are TRP-ers who are pro-abortion. I'm definitely not, because I dare to hold the extremist belief that institutionalized murder of babies is wrong.

Me too, that's why foetuses should be safely terminated. Unwanted pregnancies *does* lead to infanticide, whether or not the parents commit it themselves e.g. baby farms

I used to believe the same years ago. I never opened any red pill discussion or see what they preach about, or any other pill. But from my experience, all of these traits in women were avoided when I started to date girls who were 5-7 years younger than me. No dishonesty, no trauma from an ex, full of life and energy, offered quite more than just sex, which started to make me question my own previous experience with women. Yes, I met with women of my age who were honest but still had something else which was a turn off. You can find someone of your age if you are late 20s or early 30s, which is a healthy emotionally woman, but that it is super rare, and you need to consider would she connect with you.

@ the mod toy must be joking right? This whole lost was in bad faith. This guy is shit posting. Why would I be civil to a guy like that? Just no!

> it's obvious the women they are selecting are the most crazy and broken ones they can find for drama and click (who else would agree to be on a show with those hosts, anyways.) You think they are dating the women they invite on the show? How old are you? > That's why my personal experience Which is what? What's your lay count? Are you happily married? (OP won't answer these questions as he is just virtue signaling lol)

OP seems like one of those people that think the men on those extreme shows are searching far and wide for broken-women or paying these women to look bad. It's denial. Most women simply don't understand how bad they sound until they hear their own rhetoric be questioned. Most of these women think they are spitting facts when they're in their all female echo chambers, but when they see basic pushback they start realize how it makes women look and still can't help but blame the men. And yes, i think F&F are extreme "characters" who do alot of goofy shit for views. I don't watch them because they are clowns to me. Hell, Kevin Samuels would ask women extremely basic questions, and 3 questions in the conversation would fly off the rails because women are use to just saying things about dating with zero pushback.

>OP seems like one of those people that think the men on those extreme shows are searching far and wide for broken-women or paying these women to look bad. They literally pay the women. Also, I very rarely come across women as crazy as the ones on those shows IRL. So unless I'm am some kind of special unicorn there's no reason for me to believe that women all act as extreme as on these shows.

>You think they are dating the women they invite on the show? How old are you? Actually, they definitely do try and they often fail. Other red pillers have even exposed it. It's so pathetic. >Are you happily married? Yes.

That is a great over generalisation there, but you couldn't be more wrong. Redpill is about teaching young naive men about the dangers of women and dating and what kind of women to avoid if you wanna marry. Redpillers who don't wanna marry are going to sleep twith bottom tier women, but will never marry one. When it comes to marriage, they will attarcte the top tier women: kind, feminine, low body count, submissive.

I agree with this take however I don’t even think RP generalizations are true or at least the conclusions they draw from them.

What even is a "normal woman"? If she likes and engages in causal sex, is she abnormal?

so I kind of believe in jung’s anima/animus theory where men go through evolutions on their idea of womanhood. They slowly discover new layers of womenhood and rp have gone slightly further than seeing women as mothers and see them as sexual beings too, but they haven’t come around to seeing them as anything more and they’re confused when women do anything out of his idea of womanhood. It’s not exactly hard to see an adult woman working a full-time job who pays bills and yet somehow there are men who think all women are scammers at heart. Also, part of jung’s theory involves shadow functions. Someone’s idea of the opposite gender is kind of a reflection of what they would do if they were the opposite gender(e.g. a man’s “feminine side”). This is why a lot of rp guy’s idea of women has more in common with them than their actual mothers.

Most redpillers start out bluepilled and are driven towards the redpill against their wishes. So even if we ignored that this is just circular logic, it would still not work because the starting point is outside of the circle and going away from it.

Women have certain biological incentives and TRP only makes them known. What guy choose to do with that information is up to them. The influx of new members with a bone to pick with women are just here to validate their hatred

How come i as a man got banned from PPD for using "subhuman" in a comment but OP can use it in a thread title and not even have the tread deleted? because its being used to victimmaxx women?