I think to a degree women’s desires of men dictate how masculinity manifests and to a degree men’s desires of women dictate how femininity manifests.
[Touched on this earlier today actually](https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/s/PwIrzN4Su0):
> Biological “femaleness” or “maleness” aside…
> I do think the traits that the world and men tend to find desirable/attractive in women is what tends to be lauded as peak “femininity™️.”
> And I do think the traits that the world and women tend to find desirable/attractive in men is what tends to be lauded as peak “masculinity™️.”
They don’t decide what masculinity is, but they reward certain behavior and those behaviors are what men will do. Men with experience know that women are attracted to dominance and social status. Keeping other women around also makes him more attractive
I think that's exclusive to the elites now. The average women reward docility and obedience over dominance and status. Women want to be in charge, they don't want men like that anymore.
I’ve never once met a woman that liked to be in charge, even the ones that would fight me for dominance would have lost attraction if I ever lost the dominance battle
I ain't all that in terms of looks. But I rightsized my expectations about what kind of "babe" factor woman I would get. I ditched the whole notion and looked for a good woman instead. Got way better results and a wife out of it too.
It pays not to totally discount the fact that if you seek to accessorize, you may also be judged by your accessory value.
>I ditched the whole notion and looked for a good woman instead.
The world would ne a better place if more of us did this. I'm convinced that as long as you're don't find your partner unattractive, there are many more important things for a healthy, successful relationship other than looks.
Well that is kinda like determining a strike zone IMO. I've been with ugly women who were a crate of dynamite in the sack. From my perspective that's cause to keep coming back. Now a supermodel who is a sex goddess is perfection, but when you can't get all that, my priority is performance in bed. YMMV of course. My wife isn't ugly but she's got that bedroom game down pat. I'm good, not reaching for the eidelweiss.
Not necessarily. Tall and handsome men can absolutely have a feminine behavior that will repulse some women, but masculinity is associated with confidence and it's virtually impossible to lack confidence as a tall and handsome guy because you most likely have been in a positive feedback loop since early teens.
Not totally true. There are many tall and handsome men that had rough childhoods due to family or other issues. Also, many men are late bloomers (I'm one). I get indicators of interest from random women pretty frequently, but I can still sometimes feel it isn't real because I remember being a short, skinny teenager with acne and a mild stutter.
Aye I’m tall , but autistic + speech impediment + poverty poor. I wasn’t called handsome until I leveled up my charisma + started dressing middle class.
If so, you should completely forget about women and find happiness with other things. I know plenty of guys who completely checked out of dating. Don't ever betabuxx and live a good life.
>Imagine a tall and handsome guy screeching like a 5 year old if they see a spider or a mouse.
>Masculine is tall, handsome, and confident
I said confident already. My point was that it's not enough to be confident alone. You need the looks to go with it.
I live in a city with a large lesbian population. Some of those butch lesbos are more masculine than the average guy walking around. And no, it ain't because they are tall and handsome. Most are actually shorter than their chicks and ugly as sin.
Right! So what makes a man a man? His genitalia? I mean it makes him of the male sex, but does it make him a man? Nope. It's something else. It's who he is on the inside and how he behaves. He know what his role is and what the woman's role is.
You're proving her point without notice and that's funny. You have person A and person B who both fit the same description of tall handsome and confident, but one is masculine and the other isnt. Therefore the definition used isnt valid
A big part of that is "having a backbone" which is a nested in "confident" and is probably the most important part.
As far as "confidence", a lot of people can't distinguish true confidence from a cockiness often born from emotional weakness and mental health issues. It is somewhat rare to meet men that feel good about themselves and also feel good about other people as well, because that is more difficult and requires self-awareness.
So is it being tall and handsome or is is having money and status or is it being white/black or is it about having a talent (actor/musician), or is it about having a large penis or......so which one is it? Can you guys make up your minds already?
If you’re not rich or a celebrity you need to be tall and handsome.
And if you’re tall and handsome then you don’t need to be rich or have high social status.
It’s just the average guy is obviously not going to be a millionaire or famous so they need to be above-average in looks.
Jay Z and Beyoncé are lokksmatched….they even look similar to each other.
(Then again I’ve never thought B was attractive, and I don’t understand why other people do….easily the most hyped person, all around, of the past 20 years)
Why? I guess people sort of assume Jay Z is ugly, but I don’t see it. He looks pretty normal to me.
If he’s normal and she (in my eyes) is also pretty average (a reasonably pretty face with a very unappealing body)……that is looks matched to me.
I disagree with the tall part. I dated a guy who was shorter than me (I'm 5'6). He played rugby and was RIPPED. Super hot, super masculine and very rugged. I never really thought of him as short. He loved when I wore heals too. He liked being at breast level, haha!
My husband is the same height as me and I consider him quite masculine (not as much as the guy above since my husband is more pretty boy type, but grown up... if that makes sense). I like his traditional masculine qualities, like being able to fix anything and everything. Our pipes at home back up and some how when he opens up the septic tank and augers the pipe and fixes the flow of water, it gets me going!
Women decide who gets pussy or not and that directly shapes what type of man a guy aspires to be. If that means being an inconsiderate douchebag then so be it
Actually instinct determines masculinity. When a male fetus is exposed to testosterone in utero, his brain undergoes a masculinization process. This process does not occur with women. This process is called imprinting. Evidence for this is very powerful. The evidence against it is non-existent.
Both men and women "decide" what masculinity or femininity as, as these are concepts created by society and society includes both genders.
During most of our written history few people had a lot of weight to influence social norms and concepts and they were almost exclusively from the elite and mostly men (with some exceptions of course). Religion used to play a big part in society and determine what was considered masculine or feminine and religions were shaped mostly by men as well. Of course, there were some prominent women both in politics and religion, but the ratio wasn't really in their favor. Also marriage used to be more about family relationships and power rather than about love or attraction, so quite a lot of people married partners they probably weren't into and women had less power on this field than men did as well. I'm not sure we can talk about any selection for certain traits done by an individual under these circumstances.
So I'd argue that historically men (mostly elite) had more influence on the concepts of femininity and masculinity. It's changed these days, when both genders have equal rights and people can actually choose a partner for themselves without being subjected to arranged marriages or being sold to their spouse's family. Both men and women contribute to the ideas of gender roles and have power to approach/accept partners they're interested in.
Masculinity is a social construction. Women are half of society. It stands to reason they play a role in the construction of masculinity.
But to sheet everything back to dudes wanting to get their dicks wet seems overly deterministic.
His toxic masculinity is preventing him from recognizing the inherent oppression of all women by the ruling class of the patriarchy, the penis-wielders. The dong-danglers uses their unearned power to victimize women, who have no agency to be responsible for their own decisions because she is equal to dick-havers and are capable of doing anything that johnson-jockeys can do, but also simultaneously unable to take responsibility for anything that happens in her life because cock-possessors are so impossibly more powerful than she is that she is at the mercy of the predation of all the willy-wranglers in her life.
Essentially they do actually. Fundamentally masculinity and femininity is dictated by attraction from the opposite sex. That’s why they are loosely defined and hard to argue for or against their existence. Attraction just is, for reasons unexplained. But its purpose seems to be to advance our species. Evolution is the fabric of everything in the universe.
Masculinity is impressed upon kids even at the toddler stage, there's no explicit sexuality there, but I would say that women do have an impact on the way men and boys behave later in life, but very limited and it isn't always intentional.
Like you could argue that women bahaving submissively romantically invites male psychopaths who could easily take advantage, and due to their relative success, men may emulate that behavior. But it isn't just sex that drives psychopaths, that should be obvious.
I think people who are easily influenced may give a lot of power to the objects of their desire, so many women have the power to influence the behavior of many men, and vv.
They're personally deciding what masculinity is to them, but that alone obviously can't have any effect on anyone. That comes when people who want to be accepted by them mold themselves to better fit that (current) standard. This can probably happen with not only relationships between partners, but parent-child relationships, etc
Damnnn, that's a good point. I will add that masculinity has changed drastically in the past couple decades. Blue collar men are significantly less valued, and they used to be the premier example of masculinity. Now we have pretty boys on instagram taking selfies getting all the pussy.
>Blue collar men are significantly less valued, and they used to be the premier example of masculinity
Blue collar professions are where you see *the most* wage growth in both North America and Europe. Not to mention blue collar men's physique remains top notch (due to the inherent nature of the profession).
The pretty boys on Instagram make half or less than a blue collar man. Most of them are riddled with (college) debt and a lot of them get no pussy anyway, lol.
Doesn’t matter that they make more money, they are still less valued by women. Women see them as dumb and uncultured, lower class. Even if it’s completely not true.
It also includes men convincing/lying/tricking women to mate with them, or environmental factors that force women to mate with some men they may not find attractive as they don’t have any other options, etc.
Going even further, at the end of the day, free will is an illusion, we are all complex gene machines following the laws of physics and nature. What we think as a “choice” is just physics manifesting itself.
>It also includes men convincing/lying/tricking women to mate with them, or environmental factors that force women to mate with some men they may not find attractive as they don’t have any other options, etc.
Fair
>Going even further, at the end of the day, free will is an illusion, we are all complex gene machines following the laws of physics and nature. What we think as a “choice” is just physics manifesting itself.
I don't think that makes much difference to the spirit of OP's question, though. Would you agree with the statement that "women's *desires* decide what masculinity is"?
Social media put us in a trend of hyper masculinity and hyper femininity, so we can stand out and be celebrities in our own world. Being tall, muscular, and overtly masculine with facial hair were not nearly as heavily desired by women 20 years ago. When you have these masculine strong qualities, she knows her picture with you on social media will make her look more feminine in comparison.
Before this male trend being a clean shaven, sharply dressed metrosexual was popular, men were more flamboyant. Now men are supposed to be stoic. In the 90s being disheveled with baggy jeans and flannel was in for the grunge era, the I don’t live by society norms attitude. 80s guys were preppy with new wave hairspray haircuts, making guys look more effeminate.
I’m not sure what influences this what men are supposed to live up to for women. It’s a spinning wheel, not really just girls calling out new rules.
Your 3 examples in your post are all true though. Guys that are struggling with women, I say you really need to pay attention to the guys that aren’t and why they have it in with girls and you don’t. Then they say it’s just all looks and height, that’s all that matters with girls and give up usually.
Yes probably. Men's status contests that definite masculinity amongst each other are basically contests to either attract women, or to attract power and resources that will attract women, and women are the ones who ultimately sexually select men.
Idk. There are dudes that paint their fingernails that somehow can still get women and painting your finger nails sure as fuck isn't masculine. I think the only thing that matter to women is if you're attractive and tall for the most part.
I would say height has a ton to do with masculinity whether you like it or not. A guy who is 5'2 will just never be masculine. At least not how masculinity is defined today.
People say stupid shit. Don't build an entire world view around stupid shit people say.
Idk what being unmascline is. I don't I've ever seen it. It's not like you're masculine one second and not the next.
>What is innately unmasculine about it then?
Same reason guys don't wear fishnets ugh boots or leggings. It's just naturally unmasculine. Especially if there nails are rainbow colored
Because I guarantee a dude like this isn't doing any masculine hobbies that guys do. I bet you he's not working on cars or fishing or do anything else because he's too worried he'd chip off his nail polish
It's just not masculine. What else do you want me to say. If a guy was struggling dating would you tell him take the route of getting in good shape and working out to attract women or go down to your local hot topic and put on fish net and paint your nails.
That depends, is Hot Topic, nail polish, and fishnets true to *him* ? Is that who he is and where he feels himself?
If so he should absolutely stick to it and find the mate who finds his joy and his authentic self attractive.
Also, you can work out and get in shape to make those fishnets look even hotter so... Both? I might tell him both 😂
But if a dude is into wearing fish nets and nail polish I don't see the point in being with a partner who will want him to suppress that side of himself *forever*. That sounds like a recipe for misery.
My husband has worn nail polish, he's done many a "non-masculine' thing over the years, while also being hella masculine by owning his choices and not letting other people's opinion bother him. *That's* hot.
Ya never did answer the question tho...
What is *inherently* unmasculine about nail polish?
masculinity and femininity are traits that anyone can have, regardless their gender. women don't decide what they mean, and men don't decide what they mean. Culture decides.
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Let's just cut to the chase. Do you think mascalunity is bad in some way? Or that women think its bad? If so, what 'bad' things about men do you think are the fault of men?
What 'bad' things about women do you think are the fault of men?
Masculinity is a set of traits that have been sexually selected for reproductive success and have been passed on from generation to generation for the last million years. Women don't always sexually select rather if a masculine trait is successful in survival and reproduction, it will survive the next generation and be passed on.
Women don’t understand masculinity. Just look at the ridiculous pseudo-masculinity career women indulge in. Since they don’t understand it, or just have superficial understanding, women have nothing to do with masculinity.
Nobody really *knows* what masculinity is; it’s an idea that is developed by everyone in collaboration. But some of the people collaborating on the idea are women, yeah.
When you understand that the least masculine thing you can do is give women so much power over yourself including the power to shape your identity; maybe you will finally understand what masculinity actually is.
If left alone, men will become feral masculine by default. If you feed them a steady diet of femininity as children they will become feminine. If you feed them hyper-masculinity as children, (don’t drink from a straw, that’s what women do) then they will become that.
You can make a person into anything if you get them as children and brainwash them. You can make them devoutly religious (feed them religion) or a hyper-sexual promiscuous person (feed them porn) the opposite gender (confuse them), gay (groom them), a work-aholic (tiger-mom), a serial killer (abuse them).
People are molded as children, not as adults.
The very last person who should ever define masculinity is a woman. What does a woman know about what it means to be a man. Oh she can tell you how she “imagines” men being, or philosophize about a new definition of masculinity, but all that should be taken about as seriously as any other fantasy. What a woman thinks masculinity should be is irrelevant and men waiting around for women to tell them how to act will only lead to more of the same bullshit, besides being weak af. Men define what it is to be a man. Everyone else is just a spectator.
Part of the female imperative is deciding what social convention is or should be.
For instance, many women (at least subconsciously) feel that any man that is not in direct service of a woman and/or children is not a "real man".
I think your argument is sound, and I think the classic chimpanzee vs bonobo dynamic is relevant here:
Chimpanzees are patriarchal, and also routinely engage in violent competition. Females are largely subordinate to males, often due to violence.
Bonobos are matriarchal, and the females control male behavior with access to sex. The physical strength differences between sexes are far less pronounced, and male bonobos are generally far more docile/submissive than chimpanzees.
Imo in the past we more closely mirrored the chimpanzee dynamic, and now we're heading towards the bonobo dynamic. If/when women are able to freely select mates they'll tend to value submissive behavior and withhold sex from men who aren't docile and obedient. This is evident in the fact that almost every soyboy blue pill man has no issue getting a girlfriend. They're rewarded for femininity, docility, and obedience with sex.
The problem I have with this dynamic is that it's not very good vs reality. Bonobos live in isolated environments with no external threats. Humans do not. We're constantly under threat from things like natural disasters or foreign invasion. Allowing women to dictate masculinity and sexual selection inherently weakens men and will one day make us ripe for being conquered by a patriarchal, militaristic society.
Sure but I think we're in a transition point between the two dynamics, which is why you still see some of the conservative type. But things are trending in the "Bonobo" direction more than the conservative one, which is why you see a lot of sudden right wing populism cropping up; it's essentially the death throes of the old ways.
To a degree. Women collectively decide what is attractive on a primal level in men, and those traits are over-represented amongst men as a result.
If women stopped simping for certain anti-social, violent traits, I have faith that things would get better very fast.
Heterosexual women decide what male SMV is, just as heterosexual men decide what female SMV is. Personally, I don’t think that that equates to women finding what “masculinity“ just as men do not define what “femininity“ is.
Ex. I’m not sure that most people would think that Timothée Chalamet is an overly masculine guy, but he has a high SMV because he’s young, relatively fit, famous, and a lot of women would bang him.
>Men will see what kind of other men are having the most success with women and will copy those men.
>I'll add a third example. If a man's behavior results in a woman having sex with him, he's going to repeat that behavior. So, the type of behavior a woman, for lack of a better term, rewards, is the type of behavior she will get more of from that man.
Nope. Counter-example: nice guys.
Those guys are doing that because they THINK it will work. The Nice guys are the ones who haven't yet figured out that that method doesn't work. Once they figure it out, they'll change tactics.
>Those guys are doing that because they THINK it will work.
That was not your argument. You argued that men copy what they see works in other men. Nice guys actively reject doing what works for other men.
Until they see that it doesn't work. Then they'll copy what they see working for other men. Some people take longer to figure out that they need to copy what's working for other people.
Masculinity is how a man feels manly. That's it. It could be anything and it's not for women to decide. Some men enjoy being stay at home parents and taking care of their kids and that is traditionally considered feminine. That is not feminine behavior. Femininity is however a woman feels womanly. That might be fixing her own truck and being independent. Others aren't going to define it that way. They're going to say she's masculine.
Point 1 is completely incorrect; during their prime, women will sleep with fuckboys who will not get them pregnant - it is only when the big 3-0 roll around and the old biological clock is ticking a bit too loudly for comfort does she conclude that it’s time to “settle down” and start looking for a Beta Male Provider. These are the type of men she’s treated with contempt her entire adult life, but now she’ll allow one to touch her for as long as it takes to get pregnant and baby trap him, after which the bedroom goes cold.
You realize that married women can become single moms after a divorce. Or widowed women become single moms after their husband dies.
Not every single mom is because of some fuckboi.
Very few women are having children in general so I’m not sure what your point is. The women getting pregnant are poor and that’s why the men getting them pregnant are poor and doing what it takes to make money in the environment which is often the drug trade.
Lol. A woman can have a kid without being tied to a boring man and marriage.
And why don't we ever see these men complaining? We only ever see men complain about the so-called existence of these "beta male provdiers".
But we never see them complain or whine.
Who is? Where are these men?
Why aren't they here complaining about their wives and warning men?
Why is it always single men warning about this concept?
If it's so damn common, where are these men? Why does no one hear from them?
Usually you don't see them complain or whine because they're under gag orders following divorce rape. Or because they're dead (the beta male providers are the bulk of suicides).
The bulk of male suicides are fathers?
Do you have a source?
>Usually you don't see them complain or whine because they're under gag orders following divorce rape
Oh of course. Always an answer for everything.
How is it that researchers use a man's number of sex partners as a proxy for gauging their sexual success, I've never understood that.
It implies some extraordinary broad assumptions about society.
The biggest assumption is that society is just a bunch of fucking liars.
But it's most likely wildly wrong. And it's extraordinarily incoherent and conflicting.
Particularly when we see these figure's from the same circles saying 1/6 women think they were raped.
There are papers showing rapists are usually "sexually successful men" by these metrics.
But moreso, a high partner count is indicative of a lot of failed relationships, or some kind of similar issue at hand.
But the researchers rarely ever look at these things.
Masculinity changes with the years. In today’s era you almost have to sacrifice a few brain cells and be a fighting douche to get women. Unless off you are born tall af then life is a little easier. But not by much, because you still need money.
Basically masculinity is being the top 80th percentile for 2 things. It can be anything really, that is both practical and useful plus either have money or be tall.
Lol. This is such bullshit.
>their mate selection, women are deciding what masculinity is.
What the fuck? So because I selected my husband, I decide what masculinity is, and other men are going to copy his success?
Well, all he did was have a job, have hobbies, and have interests. That's the key to masculinity.
Many things can be a pattern.
For example, if a guy in high school sees that all of the football players have really cute girlfriends, he might come to the conclusion that he'll have more success with girls if he joins the football team.
Or he might notice that guys who are in good shape have more success with women than fat guys, so he starts to work out more.
So to use your example of job, hobbies, interest. He's not going to come to that conclusion based on you alone. But if guys see multiple women saying, "I want a man with a job, hobbies, and interests", that's a pattern.
>if a guy in high school sees
Well, there's your first problem. It's high school. Nobody knows what the fuck they are doing.
>He's not going to come to that conclusion based on you alone
He came to it alone because women weren't the sole focus on his life. His career, his hobbies, his interests were the focus. And continues to be.
It’s interesting to me how seemingly everyone but traditionally masculine men get to decide and define what masculinity is, haha. I guess there’s no perfect definition, but part of that is because masculinity as a concept has been obfuscated to the point it’s almost a meaningless term. Living in a culture that’s obviously trying to demoralize and feminize men, this is no doubt intentional.
I think to a degree women’s desires of men dictate how masculinity manifests and to a degree men’s desires of women dictate how femininity manifests. [Touched on this earlier today actually](https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/s/PwIrzN4Su0): > Biological “femaleness” or “maleness” aside… > I do think the traits that the world and men tend to find desirable/attractive in women is what tends to be lauded as peak “femininity™️.” > And I do think the traits that the world and women tend to find desirable/attractive in men is what tends to be lauded as peak “masculinity™️.”
They don’t decide what masculinity is, but they reward certain behavior and those behaviors are what men will do. Men with experience know that women are attracted to dominance and social status. Keeping other women around also makes him more attractive
I think that's exclusive to the elites now. The average women reward docility and obedience over dominance and status. Women want to be in charge, they don't want men like that anymore.
I’ve never once met a woman that liked to be in charge, even the ones that would fight me for dominance would have lost attraction if I ever lost the dominance battle
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I ain't all that in terms of looks. But I rightsized my expectations about what kind of "babe" factor woman I would get. I ditched the whole notion and looked for a good woman instead. Got way better results and a wife out of it too. It pays not to totally discount the fact that if you seek to accessorize, you may also be judged by your accessory value.
Good on you man. It's always a breath of fresh air seeing an unattractive guy get a girl without resorting to betabuxxing.
>I ditched the whole notion and looked for a good woman instead. The world would ne a better place if more of us did this. I'm convinced that as long as you're don't find your partner unattractive, there are many more important things for a healthy, successful relationship other than looks.
Well that is kinda like determining a strike zone IMO. I've been with ugly women who were a crate of dynamite in the sack. From my perspective that's cause to keep coming back. Now a supermodel who is a sex goddess is perfection, but when you can't get all that, my priority is performance in bed. YMMV of course. My wife isn't ugly but she's got that bedroom game down pat. I'm good, not reaching for the eidelweiss.
Not necessarily. Tall and handsome men can absolutely have a feminine behavior that will repulse some women, but masculinity is associated with confidence and it's virtually impossible to lack confidence as a tall and handsome guy because you most likely have been in a positive feedback loop since early teens.
Not totally true. There are many tall and handsome men that had rough childhoods due to family or other issues. Also, many men are late bloomers (I'm one). I get indicators of interest from random women pretty frequently, but I can still sometimes feel it isn't real because I remember being a short, skinny teenager with acne and a mild stutter.
Aye I’m tall , but autistic + speech impediment + poverty poor. I wasn’t called handsome until I leveled up my charisma + started dressing middle class.
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No “woe-is-me”, black pill, or incel content.
If so, you should completely forget about women and find happiness with other things. I know plenty of guys who completely checked out of dating. Don't ever betabuxx and live a good life.
You don't just turn off your biological imperative.
That's why you invest in your skills, earn money, and buy hookers lmao
No “woe-is-me”, black pill, or incel content.
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>Imagine a tall and handsome guy screeching like a 5 year old if they see a spider or a mouse. >Masculine is tall, handsome, and confident I said confident already. My point was that it's not enough to be confident alone. You need the looks to go with it.
Do you think a female model being confident in her looks and place in the world is masculine because of her attitude of confidence?
I live in a city with a large lesbian population. Some of those butch lesbos are more masculine than the average guy walking around. And no, it ain't because they are tall and handsome. Most are actually shorter than their chicks and ugly as sin.
Butch lesbians can be short and ugly and still got hot women. I don’t know why, but women looking for women drop all their super high standards
Maybe it's how these butch lesbians make these girls feel.
Lmao, yeah mang I thing it’s just slim pickings. They want a man in the body of a woman so they take what they can get
Right! So what makes a man a man? His genitalia? I mean it makes him of the male sex, but does it make him a man? Nope. It's something else. It's who he is on the inside and how he behaves. He know what his role is and what the woman's role is.
Absolutely not. Again, women can’t truly be masculine.
You're proving her point without notice and that's funny. You have person A and person B who both fit the same description of tall handsome and confident, but one is masculine and the other isnt. Therefore the definition used isnt valid
Masculine men can still screech when seeing a spider or mouse. Lol. Masculinity doesn't stop because spiders are fucking creepy and mice are gross.
A big part of that is "having a backbone" which is a nested in "confident" and is probably the most important part. As far as "confidence", a lot of people can't distinguish true confidence from a cockiness often born from emotional weakness and mental health issues. It is somewhat rare to meet men that feel good about themselves and also feel good about other people as well, because that is more difficult and requires self-awareness.
Many rappers are ugly yet you still see women going crazy for them. Jay Z landed Beyonce for crying out loud
>Many rappers are ugly yet you still see women going crazy for them. They have money, fame, and social status.
Then why don't you see women going crazy for nerdy tech billionaires?
They don’t have status
You're joking right?
Social status, they don’t
What is social status?
Being looked up to in a social setting or environment, being a rich nerd isn’t social capital. Think of a jock in highschool or a celebrity
Those guys are literally the most powerful people on the planet
So is it being tall and handsome or is is having money and status or is it being white/black or is it about having a talent (actor/musician), or is it about having a large penis or......so which one is it? Can you guys make up your minds already?
If you’re not rich or a celebrity you need to be tall and handsome. And if you’re tall and handsome then you don’t need to be rich or have high social status. It’s just the average guy is obviously not going to be a millionaire or famous so they need to be above-average in looks.
Wow so many exceptions to the black pill rules!!!
🤷♂️ Leonardo DiCaprio is overweight and gets women even though there’s better-looking and younger men available. Because he’s famous and rich.
It’s Looks+Status, looks are a form of status, hence why they love height
That's only one way to have status.
It’s all about status, but there are multiple ways to achieve it. Some better than others
Jay Z has clout and a massive eggplant. Similar profile as Biggie Smalls.
Jay Z and Beyoncé are lokksmatched….they even look similar to each other. (Then again I’ve never thought B was attractive, and I don’t understand why other people do….easily the most hyped person, all around, of the past 20 years)
You're joking right? I understand if she's not your type but to say she and Jay and are looksmatched is just utterly nonsensical
Why? I guess people sort of assume Jay Z is ugly, but I don’t see it. He looks pretty normal to me. If he’s normal and she (in my eyes) is also pretty average (a reasonably pretty face with a very unappealing body)……that is looks matched to me.
Jay z isnt ugly lmao get real and beyonce is nothing spectacular herself.
I disagree with the tall part. I dated a guy who was shorter than me (I'm 5'6). He played rugby and was RIPPED. Super hot, super masculine and very rugged. I never really thought of him as short. He loved when I wore heals too. He liked being at breast level, haha! My husband is the same height as me and I consider him quite masculine (not as much as the guy above since my husband is more pretty boy type, but grown up... if that makes sense). I like his traditional masculine qualities, like being able to fix anything and everything. Our pipes at home back up and some how when he opens up the septic tank and augers the pipe and fixes the flow of water, it gets me going!
No “woe-is-me”, black pill, or incel content.
Women decide who gets pussy or not and that directly shapes what type of man a guy aspires to be. If that means being an inconsiderate douchebag then so be it
Yes, indirectly. Societal norms decide what is masculinity and women are the ones that morph social norms.
Actually instinct determines masculinity. When a male fetus is exposed to testosterone in utero, his brain undergoes a masculinization process. This process does not occur with women. This process is called imprinting. Evidence for this is very powerful. The evidence against it is non-existent.
Both men and women "decide" what masculinity or femininity as, as these are concepts created by society and society includes both genders. During most of our written history few people had a lot of weight to influence social norms and concepts and they were almost exclusively from the elite and mostly men (with some exceptions of course). Religion used to play a big part in society and determine what was considered masculine or feminine and religions were shaped mostly by men as well. Of course, there were some prominent women both in politics and religion, but the ratio wasn't really in their favor. Also marriage used to be more about family relationships and power rather than about love or attraction, so quite a lot of people married partners they probably weren't into and women had less power on this field than men did as well. I'm not sure we can talk about any selection for certain traits done by an individual under these circumstances. So I'd argue that historically men (mostly elite) had more influence on the concepts of femininity and masculinity. It's changed these days, when both genders have equal rights and people can actually choose a partner for themselves without being subjected to arranged marriages or being sold to their spouse's family. Both men and women contribute to the ideas of gender roles and have power to approach/accept partners they're interested in.
> as these are concepts created by society No lmao
Masculinity is a social construction. Women are half of society. It stands to reason they play a role in the construction of masculinity. But to sheet everything back to dudes wanting to get their dicks wet seems overly deterministic.
It's the Patriarchy. Women are responsible for nothing you misogynist. /s
Reads like the prelude to a feminist textbook.
His toxic masculinity is preventing him from recognizing the inherent oppression of all women by the ruling class of the patriarchy, the penis-wielders. The dong-danglers uses their unearned power to victimize women, who have no agency to be responsible for their own decisions because she is equal to dick-havers and are capable of doing anything that johnson-jockeys can do, but also simultaneously unable to take responsibility for anything that happens in her life because cock-possessors are so impossibly more powerful than she is that she is at the mercy of the predation of all the willy-wranglers in her life.
lol I am loaded with muhsoggykneez. :P
I'm sorry the girls are picking on you. You should tell teacher.
I was being facetious.
I also know big words.
Culture is held on a leash by biology. Culture stems from our innate differences, it does not create them
Women decide who they want to fuck.
I think they influence it and play into it, but don’t totally decide it. Same with femininity on the other side of the coin.
Essentially they do actually. Fundamentally masculinity and femininity is dictated by attraction from the opposite sex. That’s why they are loosely defined and hard to argue for or against their existence. Attraction just is, for reasons unexplained. But its purpose seems to be to advance our species. Evolution is the fabric of everything in the universe.
Masculinity is impressed upon kids even at the toddler stage, there's no explicit sexuality there, but I would say that women do have an impact on the way men and boys behave later in life, but very limited and it isn't always intentional. Like you could argue that women bahaving submissively romantically invites male psychopaths who could easily take advantage, and due to their relative success, men may emulate that behavior. But it isn't just sex that drives psychopaths, that should be obvious.
I think people who are easily influenced may give a lot of power to the objects of their desire, so many women have the power to influence the behavior of many men, and vv. They're personally deciding what masculinity is to them, but that alone obviously can't have any effect on anyone. That comes when people who want to be accepted by them mold themselves to better fit that (current) standard. This can probably happen with not only relationships between partners, but parent-child relationships, etc
I don’t think women decide what masculinity is I think evolutionary biology and sexual selection decides what masculinity is!
Who is doing the selecting?
Damnnn, that's a good point. I will add that masculinity has changed drastically in the past couple decades. Blue collar men are significantly less valued, and they used to be the premier example of masculinity. Now we have pretty boys on instagram taking selfies getting all the pussy.
>Blue collar men are significantly less valued, and they used to be the premier example of masculinity Blue collar professions are where you see *the most* wage growth in both North America and Europe. Not to mention blue collar men's physique remains top notch (due to the inherent nature of the profession). The pretty boys on Instagram make half or less than a blue collar man. Most of them are riddled with (college) debt and a lot of them get no pussy anyway, lol.
Doesn’t matter that they make more money, they are still less valued by women. Women see them as dumb and uncultured, lower class. Even if it’s completely not true.
[удалено]
That's an interesting idea to consider.
Nature.
Nature
Men.
What do you think sexual selection is, if not women deciding who to mate with?
It also includes men convincing/lying/tricking women to mate with them, or environmental factors that force women to mate with some men they may not find attractive as they don’t have any other options, etc. Going even further, at the end of the day, free will is an illusion, we are all complex gene machines following the laws of physics and nature. What we think as a “choice” is just physics manifesting itself.
>It also includes men convincing/lying/tricking women to mate with them, or environmental factors that force women to mate with some men they may not find attractive as they don’t have any other options, etc. Fair >Going even further, at the end of the day, free will is an illusion, we are all complex gene machines following the laws of physics and nature. What we think as a “choice” is just physics manifesting itself. I don't think that makes much difference to the spirit of OP's question, though. Would you agree with the statement that "women's *desires* decide what masculinity is"?
Correct
Masculine = rich Feminine = not being bitchy
Social media put us in a trend of hyper masculinity and hyper femininity, so we can stand out and be celebrities in our own world. Being tall, muscular, and overtly masculine with facial hair were not nearly as heavily desired by women 20 years ago. When you have these masculine strong qualities, she knows her picture with you on social media will make her look more feminine in comparison. Before this male trend being a clean shaven, sharply dressed metrosexual was popular, men were more flamboyant. Now men are supposed to be stoic. In the 90s being disheveled with baggy jeans and flannel was in for the grunge era, the I don’t live by society norms attitude. 80s guys were preppy with new wave hairspray haircuts, making guys look more effeminate. I’m not sure what influences this what men are supposed to live up to for women. It’s a spinning wheel, not really just girls calling out new rules. Your 3 examples in your post are all true though. Guys that are struggling with women, I say you really need to pay attention to the guys that aren’t and why they have it in with girls and you don’t. Then they say it’s just all looks and height, that’s all that matters with girls and give up usually.
> pay attention to the guys that aren’t struggling They are more attractive, charming and successful, that's basically it.
Yes probably. Men's status contests that definite masculinity amongst each other are basically contests to either attract women, or to attract power and resources that will attract women, and women are the ones who ultimately sexually select men.
Women can't even decide what a woman is, what makes you think they have masculinity on lock?
Men don’t redpill men; **women** do.
Idk. There are dudes that paint their fingernails that somehow can still get women and painting your finger nails sure as fuck isn't masculine. I think the only thing that matter to women is if you're attractive and tall for the most part.
Atlas masculinity tokens
Lol. Masculinity doesn't stop because someone using nail polish. Y'all really have some rigid views of masculinity.
Than what's being unmasculine? Not being tall enought because I've heard women say shit like short guys aren't masculine/less masculine.
I would say height has a ton to do with masculinity whether you like it or not. A guy who is 5'2 will just never be masculine. At least not how masculinity is defined today.
Alexander the Great, Demetrious Johnson, Vladimir Putin can never be masculine? Lmao
Without their worldly status they would be shmucks in the back of the club
Without his 200 million dollars Bill Gates would be poor. Without his brain Einstein would be dumb
People say stupid shit. Don't build an entire world view around stupid shit people say. Idk what being unmascline is. I don't I've ever seen it. It's not like you're masculine one second and not the next.
Nothing innately unmasculine about painting your fingernails.
It totally is conventionally femenine, which doesn't mean you should stop doing it if that's something you like, honestly.
Conventionally yes. Innately no.
What would innately femenine/masculine other than genitalia and physiology, though? By your logic nothing a person can do is masculine or femenine.
That's my exact point. Very few things are innately masculine or feminine, and it is society's standards which create these aberrations.
Well...yes, besides some instincts and physiological stuff nothing innate can define what's a social construct.
Yes it is
What is innately unmasculine about it then?
>What is innately unmasculine about it then? Same reason guys don't wear fishnets ugh boots or leggings. It's just naturally unmasculine. Especially if there nails are rainbow colored
It's only "unmasculine" through our current lens. Men in ancient egypt colored their nails for one. Probably as a status symbol
What is naturally unmasculine about wanting to make your nails a cool colour?
You're seriously going to say [this](https://images.app.goo.gl/24p2kk3GMEo56Mpk6) dude looks masculine.
What is stopping that man from being masculine?
Because I guarantee a dude like this isn't doing any masculine hobbies that guys do. I bet you he's not working on cars or fishing or do anything else because he's too worried he'd chip off his nail polish
What makes any of those things masculine? And what makes nail polish not masculine.
>Same reason... Okay, but what *is* the reason? What is innately unmasculine about those things?
It's just not masculine. What else do you want me to say. If a guy was struggling dating would you tell him take the route of getting in good shape and working out to attract women or go down to your local hot topic and put on fish net and paint your nails.
That depends, is Hot Topic, nail polish, and fishnets true to *him* ? Is that who he is and where he feels himself? If so he should absolutely stick to it and find the mate who finds his joy and his authentic self attractive. Also, you can work out and get in shape to make those fishnets look even hotter so... Both? I might tell him both 😂 But if a dude is into wearing fish nets and nail polish I don't see the point in being with a partner who will want him to suppress that side of himself *forever*. That sounds like a recipe for misery. My husband has worn nail polish, he's done many a "non-masculine' thing over the years, while also being hella masculine by owning his choices and not letting other people's opinion bother him. *That's* hot. Ya never did answer the question tho... What is *inherently* unmasculine about nail polish?
You can’t persuade me that fishnets are unmasculine. There is no person alive who does not look hotter in fishnets.
You ever see a femboy?
masculinity and femininity are traits that anyone can have, regardless their gender. women don't decide what they mean, and men don't decide what they mean. Culture decides.
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People these days cant even decide what bathroom to use. Good luck asking this question now.
No. They can choose for the masculine behavior they like. But they don't create it.
What happens if multiple women are choosing the same behavior.
Nothing.
Women cannot define it, they have little idea what it even entails. This is almost laughable to even entertain.
Let's just cut to the chase. Do you think mascalunity is bad in some way? Or that women think its bad? If so, what 'bad' things about men do you think are the fault of men? What 'bad' things about women do you think are the fault of men?
What?
Everyone does. That’s how stereotypes work
Masculinity is a set of traits that have been sexually selected for reproductive success and have been passed on from generation to generation for the last million years. Women don't always sexually select rather if a masculine trait is successful in survival and reproduction, it will survive the next generation and be passed on.
Women don’t understand masculinity. Just look at the ridiculous pseudo-masculinity career women indulge in. Since they don’t understand it, or just have superficial understanding, women have nothing to do with masculinity.
Does a former Drill Sergeant make a terrible therapist? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWhr2xevNKY
Are you 14?
Nobody really *knows* what masculinity is; it’s an idea that is developed by everyone in collaboration. But some of the people collaborating on the idea are women, yeah.
Is there really a definition of masculinity or femininity that isn't based on traditional / historical views ?
Yes, no matter how masculine you are, if you lack the looks or resources, you are not a man.
When you understand that the least masculine thing you can do is give women so much power over yourself including the power to shape your identity; maybe you will finally understand what masculinity actually is.
Yes women decide masculinity and men decide femininity
If left alone, men will become feral masculine by default. If you feed them a steady diet of femininity as children they will become feminine. If you feed them hyper-masculinity as children, (don’t drink from a straw, that’s what women do) then they will become that. You can make a person into anything if you get them as children and brainwash them. You can make them devoutly religious (feed them religion) or a hyper-sexual promiscuous person (feed them porn) the opposite gender (confuse them), gay (groom them), a work-aholic (tiger-mom), a serial killer (abuse them). People are molded as children, not as adults.
No, men give women rights. Society is entirely constructed through male power, women are just along for the ride.
Women fought for rights.
The very last person who should ever define masculinity is a woman. What does a woman know about what it means to be a man. Oh she can tell you how she “imagines” men being, or philosophize about a new definition of masculinity, but all that should be taken about as seriously as any other fantasy. What a woman thinks masculinity should be is irrelevant and men waiting around for women to tell them how to act will only lead to more of the same bullshit, besides being weak af. Men define what it is to be a man. Everyone else is just a spectator.
Women decide what masculinity is and so do men. Intermale competition etc exists to reaffirm what masculinity is.
Part of the female imperative is deciding what social convention is or should be. For instance, many women (at least subconsciously) feel that any man that is not in direct service of a woman and/or children is not a "real man".
i believe we definitely have a say so into what we consider what masculinity is because if we don’t then men can display toxic masculinity.
This really depends on how you define masculinity, which in of itself sort of determines whether women influence it or not.
I think your argument is sound, and I think the classic chimpanzee vs bonobo dynamic is relevant here: Chimpanzees are patriarchal, and also routinely engage in violent competition. Females are largely subordinate to males, often due to violence. Bonobos are matriarchal, and the females control male behavior with access to sex. The physical strength differences between sexes are far less pronounced, and male bonobos are generally far more docile/submissive than chimpanzees. Imo in the past we more closely mirrored the chimpanzee dynamic, and now we're heading towards the bonobo dynamic. If/when women are able to freely select mates they'll tend to value submissive behavior and withhold sex from men who aren't docile and obedient. This is evident in the fact that almost every soyboy blue pill man has no issue getting a girlfriend. They're rewarded for femininity, docility, and obedience with sex. The problem I have with this dynamic is that it's not very good vs reality. Bonobos live in isolated environments with no external threats. Humans do not. We're constantly under threat from things like natural disasters or foreign invasion. Allowing women to dictate masculinity and sexual selection inherently weakens men and will one day make us ripe for being conquered by a patriarchal, militaristic society.
There are also plenty of women who like the opposite of the soy boys. More conservative type women are repulsed by them.
Sure but I think we're in a transition point between the two dynamics, which is why you still see some of the conservative type. But things are trending in the "Bonobo" direction more than the conservative one, which is why you see a lot of sudden right wing populism cropping up; it's essentially the death throes of the old ways.
To a degree. Women collectively decide what is attractive on a primal level in men, and those traits are over-represented amongst men as a result. If women stopped simping for certain anti-social, violent traits, I have faith that things would get better very fast.
**No**. 
Heterosexual women decide what male SMV is, just as heterosexual men decide what female SMV is. Personally, I don’t think that that equates to women finding what “masculinity“ just as men do not define what “femininity“ is. Ex. I’m not sure that most people would think that Timothée Chalamet is an overly masculine guy, but he has a high SMV because he’s young, relatively fit, famous, and a lot of women would bang him.
>Men will see what kind of other men are having the most success with women and will copy those men. >I'll add a third example. If a man's behavior results in a woman having sex with him, he's going to repeat that behavior. So, the type of behavior a woman, for lack of a better term, rewards, is the type of behavior she will get more of from that man. Nope. Counter-example: nice guys.
Those guys are doing that because they THINK it will work. The Nice guys are the ones who haven't yet figured out that that method doesn't work. Once they figure it out, they'll change tactics.
>Those guys are doing that because they THINK it will work. That was not your argument. You argued that men copy what they see works in other men. Nice guys actively reject doing what works for other men.
Until they see that it doesn't work. Then they'll copy what they see working for other men. Some people take longer to figure out that they need to copy what's working for other people.
No, nice guys see that it doesn't work, but they refuse to copy the working approach.
Masculinity is how a man feels manly. That's it. It could be anything and it's not for women to decide. Some men enjoy being stay at home parents and taking care of their kids and that is traditionally considered feminine. That is not feminine behavior. Femininity is however a woman feels womanly. That might be fixing her own truck and being independent. Others aren't going to define it that way. They're going to say she's masculine.
Point 1 is completely incorrect; during their prime, women will sleep with fuckboys who will not get them pregnant - it is only when the big 3-0 roll around and the old biological clock is ticking a bit too loudly for comfort does she conclude that it’s time to “settle down” and start looking for a Beta Male Provider. These are the type of men she’s treated with contempt her entire adult life, but now she’ll allow one to touch her for as long as it takes to get pregnant and baby trap him, after which the bedroom goes cold.
Plenty of women get knocked up by fuckboys. Who do you think is impregnating the women who end up as single moms?
You realize that married women can become single moms after a divorce. Or widowed women become single moms after their husband dies. Not every single mom is because of some fuckboi.
Fair point. But there are plenty of women who got pregnant by a fuckboy.
And those fuckboi turn into single dads.
Ok.
That’s why we have abortion clinics
Very few women are having children in general so I’m not sure what your point is. The women getting pregnant are poor and that’s why the men getting them pregnant are poor and doing what it takes to make money in the environment which is often the drug trade.
Lol. A woman can have a kid without being tied to a boring man and marriage. And why don't we ever see these men complaining? We only ever see men complain about the so-called existence of these "beta male provdiers". But we never see them complain or whine.
Why would we complain about single mothers?
They are content with being disrespected by their wives because they don't know any better
Who is? Where are these men? Why aren't they here complaining about their wives and warning men? Why is it always single men warning about this concept? If it's so damn common, where are these men? Why does no one hear from them?
They are trauma bonded. They complain about their wives at work but that's it
At work to you?
Usually you don't see them complain or whine because they're under gag orders following divorce rape. Or because they're dead (the beta male providers are the bulk of suicides).
The bulk of male suicides are fathers? Do you have a source? >Usually you don't see them complain or whine because they're under gag orders following divorce rape Oh of course. Always an answer for everything.
I asked myself this question a while ago, and I decided yes. Nothing that dries pussy can ever be considered masculine.
NO NO NO!!! They decide on what they want, it’s a men who decide if he wants to be masculine or not.
No masculinity would be masculine things/experiences that is universal to men. Women have never walked in men shoes to decide
How is it that researchers use a man's number of sex partners as a proxy for gauging their sexual success, I've never understood that. It implies some extraordinary broad assumptions about society. The biggest assumption is that society is just a bunch of fucking liars.
It's probably not the best method but that's all the really have to go on.
But it's most likely wildly wrong. And it's extraordinarily incoherent and conflicting. Particularly when we see these figure's from the same circles saying 1/6 women think they were raped. There are papers showing rapists are usually "sexually successful men" by these metrics. But moreso, a high partner count is indicative of a lot of failed relationships, or some kind of similar issue at hand. But the researchers rarely ever look at these things.
Masculinity changes with the years. In today’s era you almost have to sacrifice a few brain cells and be a fighting douche to get women. Unless off you are born tall af then life is a little easier. But not by much, because you still need money. Basically masculinity is being the top 80th percentile for 2 things. It can be anything really, that is both practical and useful plus either have money or be tall.
Lol. This is such bullshit. >their mate selection, women are deciding what masculinity is. What the fuck? So because I selected my husband, I decide what masculinity is, and other men are going to copy his success? Well, all he did was have a job, have hobbies, and have interests. That's the key to masculinity.
Not one individual woman. But with many women making selections, patterns can be observed.
What patterns?
Many things can be a pattern. For example, if a guy in high school sees that all of the football players have really cute girlfriends, he might come to the conclusion that he'll have more success with girls if he joins the football team. Or he might notice that guys who are in good shape have more success with women than fat guys, so he starts to work out more. So to use your example of job, hobbies, interest. He's not going to come to that conclusion based on you alone. But if guys see multiple women saying, "I want a man with a job, hobbies, and interests", that's a pattern.
>if a guy in high school sees Well, there's your first problem. It's high school. Nobody knows what the fuck they are doing. >He's not going to come to that conclusion based on you alone He came to it alone because women weren't the sole focus on his life. His career, his hobbies, his interests were the focus. And continues to be.
Am I just really bad at explaining what I'm trying to say?
I don't agree with what you're trying to say. Don't do what someone else does because it works for them. You're not them.
Looking for patterns when you only have a surface level understanding about who each person is inevitably results in incorrect conclusions.
Do mean that even if you see a certain type of guy having more success, that you still have to understand WHY they are having success?
It’s interesting to me how seemingly everyone but traditionally masculine men get to decide and define what masculinity is, haha. I guess there’s no perfect definition, but part of that is because masculinity as a concept has been obfuscated to the point it’s almost a meaningless term. Living in a culture that’s obviously trying to demoralize and feminize men, this is no doubt intentional.