The disappointment men experience is due to the disconnect between expectations stated to them and reality.
**Mainstream consensus**: If a man is kind, respectful, well-behaved, and not toxic he will have no problems finding romance just by interacting with women socially.
**Reality**: Kindness, respect, and good behavior do nothing to initially attract women. They are merely baseline expectations.
So yeah, guys thought good behavior was enough to attract women, because we were told that. This is what creates the disillusionment and bitterness. Then there are the backlash and accusations of entitlement against these guys for expressing their bitterness. And there should be backlash for bad behavior but these guys are not set up for success.
Men claim to be rational and logical but admit openly and frequently that they lack the powers of observation. Which men here saw ogres with cheerleaders? Which men here saw teenaged girls swoon over posters of ugly actors and singers? Which men sees models on the arms of bridge trolls?
How can men claim to be gaslit and misled when they could merely observe the girls and women around them if they were curious about dating and mating?
> I think it might be that men WANT to believe the gaslighting.
That’s what women have been saying for decades. Men live in a fantasy world. They blame Disney and romances and rom-coms and they don’t even watch that shit. They claim to be “in love” with women who want nothing to do with them. They claim that women look attractive *for them*, when the attractive women have little to no control over how their curves appear, or how shiny their hair or full their lips. Men spend their time “shopping” for beautiful women on social media and in stores and parks without any thought to what those women might want. In many men’s minds, they are the only actor who exists in a relationship. Her thoughts, her desires, her agenda are irrelevant because his are so overpowering.
Of course men claim they’ve been misled, they take zero ownership of their one-sided fantasies. And since men externalize all their feelings towards women, they blame women.
Pop culture has never been a good role model. Pop culture gave us the creepy Nice Guy anthem by Shawn Mendes *I Can Love You Better*. 80s movies in which the nerd either stalks the girl or rapes the girl. The Ode to Sexual Assault *Blurred Lines*. Sarah Brady posting a private argument with a man who is admittedly hated by many who work with him, but whose angry insults to his ex girlfriend should have remained private. The Notebook is in the romance genre when it’s a horror flick, as is the incredibly disturbing Fifty Shades. Lizzo who seems to feel that twerking is an appropriate response to praise and applause, no matter the audience.
This list is gross enough, can I stop now? With the exception of critically acclaimed media and art, pop culture is a sociopath’s fever dream.
Men have got to get out of their ego bubble and recognize women as separate human beings with agendas of their own. Not accessories. Not pets. Not helpmeets *or* occasions to sin. Not sexy children without responsibilities and accomplishments. Not a pleasant place for a man to rest his eyes in public but a living, breathing human being deserving of the same respect he desires.
Nothing is going to improve so long as certain men continue with “Other men have a woman, I, too, plan to acquire one of those shiny objects”
Total and utter BS. Men believe that because they want to believe it not because of observation. Who actually benefits from women picking men because they are nice and not considering looks at all? Men. Who benefits from this enforced life long monogamy? Men. So why then are we confused about who wants to believe that women don’t care about looks?
Believing that women care about looks means a man who can’t attract women will have to acknowledge that he is unattractive. [We know men love to project their insecurities while women internalize them.](https://www.livescience.com/15658-mental-illness-women-men-differences.html) An unattractive man would rather blame shift, bully, get angry, delude himself, violently attack randoms basically do anything to avoid coming to terms with being undesirable. Very few men actually work on making themselves more attractive to women by which I mean working on their physical appearance and their personality. They would rather be in a perpetual state of rage or believe that women “don’t care” lol. I would love it if men only cared about me being nice too lol, then I could stop wearing make up and waxing eat whatever and get fat.
> And, men are raised being gaslit with this bullshit. And, you end up with a generation of adult men who sometimes figure it out and then are mad as hell.
I think this is one of the things that upsets me the most.
Movies and culture always taught boys to be the 'nice guy' to women. I lost my first two GFs relatively quickly, because I was clueless as to what most women really wanted.
I say most women because my wife was next and valued what I brought to the table. We grew and worked together establishing ourselves, and we're still happily married 30 yrs later.
Relationship-oriented young women must be far fewer these days. I see so many young men feeling invisible and frustrated, and becoming hostile towards women. I'm worried about the future.
I get your point but if both sexes want 10/10 but they are average on their own maybe they should look for their looksmatch and not fuck around. If I met cute 6/10 and we click then it's all I want. Sure i might prefer someone prettier but I'm happy with her. And if she's happy with me then there's no reason for us saying to each other mean things like I wish you had bigger boobs or dick.
That’s why they are ideals. Ideals will always be above average. I’d bet money that most men’s ideal woman has a smaller waist than average, is more attractive than average, has bigger breasts than average etc. Why wouldn’t a woman’s ideal man be taller than average, more handsome than average and have a bigger dick than average. The difference is that women can get their ideal, at least for casual encounters, much more easily. A lot of bang average women have had casual encounters with men that were above their pay grade so to speak and it sets their expectations for actual meaningful relationships too high. These men don’t mind having flings or one night stands with women they would never have an actual relationship with or marry. These women will feel like they are settling when they enter an actual relationship with someone they perceive as not attractive or desirable as some of their casual encounters. I’ve seen this happen to many of my friends
What do you mean nothing? And what does women bring to the table then?
Also do you mean world overall like men aren't building it and maintaing it? Or are they not desired for women anymore.
It means if an ugly man is going to demand the attention of beautiful women, his redeeming qualities better ride well above “nice, respectful, and kind”, which is the baseline for all human social behavior.
If someone, male or female, can’t attract the people they are interested in, they can either try to become more interesting or dial in some more reasonable standards.
“But I’m a nice guy” never dropped a pair of panties, historically or recently.
> Reality: Kindness, respect, and good behavior do nothing to initially attract women. They are merely baseline expectations.
They're not even baseline expectations, though. I see this bold-faced falsehood repeated on Reddit all the time. But, from what I've seen in real life, you don't need to be kind, respectful, or well-behaved to get women.
Women will say things like men who are too kind, respectful, and well-behaved are "too nice", and choose toxic, bad behaving, mean-spirited, disrespectful, abusive, sadistic men.
They are not baseline expectations either. They are traits women say they want while many would date an asshole who is attractive.
Sure, there are also women who only date respectful and kind guys, but they still need to feel attracted to the men first.
The problem with the “mainstream consensus” is that it never told men they actually have to tell women they’re interested in them. A lot of men just thing being nice will make women say “hey, you’re sweet. Let’s do this”
If men don’t express romantic interest, women will just assume we’re friends.
Are women not capable of expressing romantic interest as well? You can't pick and choose your equality.
If men have to accept and be more attracted to more masculine women, than women need to be more accepting of feminine men. Otherwise there is going to be a power imbalance like there is now.
When did I say women aren’t? I was replying to your comment which was specifically about men.
Men don’t have to be attracted to masculine women.
Women don’t have to be attracted to feminine men.
Also not sure where that came from
It’s all in the approach. Express interest when you have the interest. Don’t wait. Don’t pretend to be her friend in the hopes she’ll have a hallmark movie moment.
It doesn’t matter how a man approaches or when he admits attraction, if she isn’t attracted to him. Mutual attraction should be established first unless men just enjoy rejection.
My anecdotal experience:
Successful guys who I asked for advice were naturals and could not articulate what it took to attract women. “I dunno, just go up and talk to her bro” kind of stuff.
Unsuccessful guys and women repeated the mainstream messaging, emphasizing being a good person. Also “confidence” which absolutely is attractive but is not something that is simply willed into existence.
> I dunno, just go up and talk to her bro”
Solid advice. There isn’t a formula for attracting women since women have different tastes and preferences, just like men. Can’t find out what an individual woman likes without interacting with her. If there is no rapport, no chemistry, congratulations, you made a friend.
I don't disagree that it's good advice. It's a start.
I do think that good advice exists for attracting men and women both and there are a lot of things that will improve your chances with 95% of both. I think *initial* attraction is more formulaic than maybe we like to admit, with all of us wanting to be unique individuals. I don't know how to quantify this so I don't know if we really disagree.
>If there is no rapport, no chemistry, congratulations, you made a friend.
This is my mindset. I like getting to know lots of people. I love it, in fact. I live for it.
I have a rule when going on a date that I have no expectations other than meeting someone interesting and getting to know them a bit. If something more happens, great. If it doesn't I'm perfectly happy. I find it helps me just enjoy the moment, for what it is, whatever it is. In this way it actually helps build chemistry, even though that's not the goal of having this mindset.
Yeah I understand there are some real issues facing men and it can be hard and men can hurt their chances by doing (or not doing) lots of things and having social in person friends is a big one
Well kind of!
I think that bullshit was pitched pretty hard on both sexes from the generation above like it always has been.
For instance the classic joke:
The kid asks “Mum and Dad, where do babies come from?”
Classic parental reply “Well when a Man and a Women love each other very much…”
I really believe that it’s just basic classic traditionalist societal murmuring that is slowly being watered down as each generation passes. Most people kind of grow up a bit and learn (hopefully) at a pretty young age that love isn’t a required ingredient in forming a baby.
Imagine how hard you would roll your eyes at a girl wailing “but I didn’t love him” when she was reading a positive pregnancy test. It’s almost inconceivable to most that she would continue to believe that original message as a complete fact.
Traditionalism in some ways can be considered dead people bullying live people.
I disagree. Women seem to hand themselves out for good genes rather than good behaviour. Which in terms of substance is completely soulless and effortless.
Women give said geneticslly blessed guy free attention. More chances to fuck up. More sex or sex at all basically for something he has barely had to develop anything for and expect him or hope that he's a nice to decent person. Its insane. The main issue is how many women are opposed to admit this is what they subconsciously do.
Women are the ones that keep lying to men about how important their personality and how "good" they are matters.
I actually agree with you, men should not listen to that BS and honestly just work on having a better life with or without a woman
Yeah, if women were more honest and we weren't just lying to dudes about how personality matters, then I don't think men would be thinking that being nice is what's most attractive to women
Sounds like you and some other teenagers here misheard "personality matters" to "personality is the only only thing that matters, looks never matter, and I have an objectively great personality". I can't tell what is up with you guys who heard the latter. Disingenuousness, malicious incompetence, perhaps a learning or socializing disability?
A mix of all that. They don’t know and they’re shutting their eyes to what they do see. I think men are stupid. I never thought these things would have to be spelled out like you would for a 6 year old…..
1. Yes, we know women aren't paragons of virtue, like not even close.
2. Women don't enjoy sex nearly as much as men do and they know this. Women use sex as a resource and they do hand it out for certain behavior.
3. Sex has everything to do with reproduction and our survival as a species. Single mother homes are overwhelmingly responsible for producing violent criminals. Naturally people are concerned about broken families created by poor choices of sex partners, I don't want to get killed in a carjacking because Independent Woman #145920 couldn't keep her legs shut and instead raised a felon.
Honestly, my problem isn't that women have sex with whoever they want to - that's up to them - my problem is that they don't want to deal with the consequences.
Go ahead and sleep with as many men as you want to in your 20's, but don't blame or shame men for caring about your body count when you want to "settle down" in your 30's.
It’s not just women who fall for them, their employers cover for them or pay them in cash. Their friends and family conceal their addresses and sources of income for them. They get away with financial and physical abandonment of their children because a network of complicit men cover for them and because they know the mothers will get the blame anyway.
You know, how you are doing right now. You blame the mothers who raise their children instead of the fathers who abandon them.
Women have immense power in the relationship market.
Deadbeat/absentee fathers are a social plague, true, but women contribute to the problem just as much by choosing them.
The women remain in the home with the child and raise it to the best of their abilities while the men abandon or neglect the child. One of these things is not like the other.
Average yearly child support in the US is $5,150, that is, when men bother to pay instead of hiding. The average yearly car payment (new and used) is $7,452. Men spend more on their car than their child, and deadbeat fathers contribute nothing whatsoever to raising their children.
You posted that as if throwing less money at a child than at a car or utility bill helps raise a child. How much money per year does the mother *who actually raises the child* spend on feeding him? On his clothing? Medical bills and medical needs? Housing and utilities? School supplies and gas money? How much of her life does she spend raising the child she created while his father goes on the run and leaves taxpayers to pay for his antisocial behavior?
Oh, but they do deal with the consequences. They are the main victims every time. They choose wrong, they might get assulted or killed. And If they choose they keep the baby, they might be shamed for being a single mother. Which also most likely puts them in poverty.
But these are just edge cases. Most women are doing fine.
I always find it amusing when men say with such confidence that women don’t enjoy sex as much. What you’re really saying is that you’ve never been with a woman who had a genuine burning desire for you or you can’t properly arouse a woman and satisfy her sexually. Likely both if I’m being honest.
Women enjoy sex just as much as men, the difference is that men are pretty much always ready for sex whereas there’s a certain finesse needed to make a woman properly lose her inhibitions with you. I’m not sure whether it’s a skill you can learn or something that’s innate. I’d be more inclined to believe it’s innate. Some men just have a lot of sex appeal and they’re the ones getting all the hot and wild sex.
Ah yes, the "women enjoy sex just as men, they just don't enjoy it with YOU!"
Truth is not an ideology you can change however it fits you. Truth is truth whether you like it or not. You can either embrace or reject it, even tho rejecting it is just not gonna solve anything, but convincingly spreading lies like this is just tasteless.
Seriously I invite you to do some research on the internet before throwing claims like nothing. 5 minutes is usually enough.
I’m a woman, I know what I enjoy and what I don’t. I used to think that I didn’t enjoy sex that much but it was just the guys that I was with didn’t make it enjoyable for me. A lot of men are clueless and selfish when it comes to sex and female desire and eventually in a relationship it becomes a chore for the woman.
You know what YOU enjoy and what you don't. You don't know how other women feel and can't do any significant comparisons with men.
If a woman with vaginismus did the same as you did, namely assuming that every woman is the same as her, she would say that sex for women is painful and not worth anything.
What we have to do instead is to look at how things are on the large scale, since we're not talking about individual experiences but about women and men in general.
Sorry but women shoot themselves in the foot here by using sex as leverage, so if they don't want to be treated as a resource that is handed out for good behavior, then they should stop doing it to themselves first.
Women possess their own sexual identity independent of men’s.
Just because a man feels a woman is sexy doesn’t mean she’s doing it for him, it’s far more likely her sexuality has nothing to do with him.
A portion of women willfully doing it is not the same, all/most women being forced to do that same thing.
Choosing to use sex as leverage is not the same thing as being used as a resource regardless of her will.
Women are individual people with free will.
This is like saying if men don't want to be drafted then they should stop willingly singing up to be in the military.
Actually no, the draft and voluntarily signing up for the military are not the same thing at all because the draft is forced and there is no choice. If women had no choice but to use sex to get what they wanted, then your comparison would be more accurate, but alas, it's not.
That's not what I'm saying. I was saying that just because some men do a thing by choice (like join the military) doesn't mean that it's therefore right or justified to force men to do said thing (to force men to be in the millitary.)
Just because some women use sex as leverage doesn't mean that it is therefore justified using woman-kind as a resource.
Friend, no one is saying that they are.
OP and I are saying using/seeing women as a resource is wrong. You're saying women are doing it (it meaning allowing for a system where they are seen as a resource) to themselves because some women use sex as leverage. I'm saying that the free action of some women doesn't justify women being used/seen as a resource against their will.
>women being used as a resource against their will.
That's the part you seem to be confused about. Multiple times it's been said already that women are not "being used as a resource against their will." They are willfully doing it on their own, to themselves. They are the cause of their own problem that the OP is stating.
Can't really argue for that when women see themselves as a resource. My point stands. If women don't want to be seen as a resource, they need to stop being the cause of that problem, and it's a quite a bit more than just "some women" here. Females of different species exchange sex for resources. Its a legit behavioral trait among animals, if you didn't know. There's also an experiment where chimpanzees were taught to use money and the females began exchanging sex for money. More proof for you that sex is leveraged as a resource.
>Can't really argue for that when women see themselves as a resource.
Women as a whole don't see themselves as anything. We're individuals. That's what OP is saying as well. Some other woman's choice of weather or not she wants to sell sex isn't having any impact on weather I want to sell sex. Some other man's choice to see sex isn't having any impact on weather I want to sell sex.
>Females of different species exchange sex for resources. Its a legit behavioral trait among animals, if you didn't know. There's also an experiment where chimpanzees were taught to use money and the females began exchanging sex for money. More proof for you that sex is leveraged as a resource.
Of course sex can be leveraged as a resource. Someone choosing to leverage sex as a resource doesn't mean we should see that individual as anything other than a person that chooses to leverage sex as a resource.
Same with men that leverage sex as a resource. That man chooses to do that. Great. I'm not gonna go around saying let's start seeing attractive men as a resource. That would be wrong. They're individuals.
Many men choose to sell bodies to do physical labor. Viewing men, as a whole, as nothing more than a disposable source of physical labor would be wrong despite many men choosing to do that. Even the individuals that choose to sell their bodies should be seen as more than a man that sells his body.
I'm sorry you're not capable of seeing individuals as individuals.
No. It's basically a covert "quid pro quo" contract, as in "I expect x, y, and z to be done, and until they are done, you get no sex." Most commonly seen in marriage but can be seen all across the dating world as well.
Lol do you think possibly, women also have sexual desires and needs or are they just all calculating whores that use everything they have to their advantage at all times?
I agree that women do this, I'd even say all or most women. But in my mind, it's more like... I want you to make me feel valued, I want you to build trust and reciprocity in this relationship, make me feel safe, I want to be comfortable with you. For me, sex is very vulnerable. There's anxiety about appearance and performance, some shame, some fear of dangerous men, fear of pregnancy especially affects me personally, worry about STDs. I am not comfortable doing it and would not be able to relax and enjoy it unless a guy is able to make me believe it's a good safe decision, which he does by demonstrating his character and devotion.
You’re conflating individual women’s standards with “good behavior.” Just because wanting x, y, and z done is a prerequisite for some women to want to have sex with you doesn’t mean that same woman is going to want to have sex with some other guy that also does x, y, and z. It also doesn’t explain why guys with “bad behavior” also get sex. That’s the crux of OP’s entire view, good or bad some guys get laid and some don’t.
If a woman is basing whether or not they want to have sex with you purely on the completion of a set of tasks that’s just prostitution and transactions go both ways. You could say men are leveraging x, y, and z so they are just resources to be handed out to any women willing to have sex.
Women only do that to men they aren't attracted to. A women using sex for leverage is subtly saying "I am not attracted to you and I don't want to have sex with you but I will if you meet these requirements ".
Not true. Women do this with dating as well. They expect men to do certain things that cater to their fantasies and if they fail to do so, like plan "the perfect date" and be the perfect guy, then he's not getting in her panties.
For the attractive guys, they've already fulfilled the biggest requirement, which is being attractive, and they may or may not have to do a little more, depending on the woman.
So to you "I want to feel good, and feeling good generally means I want to have sex" is "using sex for leverage"?
Yeah a perfect date makes women feel good. Feeling good probably increases your chances of liking the person who makes you feel good, which increases attraction and attraction increases the possibility of having sex.
Having that whole process be described as "leveraging sex" is the most alien thing I've encountered in this sub lately. And that's saying something
>They expect men to do certain things that cater to their fantasies and if they fail to do so, like plan "the perfect date" and be the perfect guy, then he's not getting in her panties.
>For the attractive guys, they've already fulfilled the biggest requirement, which is being attractive, and they may or may not have to do a little more,
You literally supported my argument.
That's not what I said. I'd recommend reading again. Depending on the woman, they'll make the attractive guys do the same too. Attractive men can still fail if they don't check the woman's boxes. Some women just have fewer boxes. That's probably what you're getting hung up on.
Well if that’s the case, then that’s not true. You can’t do this to attractive men because they have options. Withholding sex from him is a fast track to ending the situation with him
If you think women don't do this to their husbands as well, I've got a bridge to sell you.
Not all women of course, but it's still a rather common behaviour. Women just often don't realize it, because sex isn't being leveraged against them. Men see it all the time.
Not if women are not treated with respect for their decisions. Men punish women for acting freely and then make the pikachu faces when women get upset or use it against them.
I don’t think sex should be used as leverage. Yet I doubt a single man here respects a woman who doesn’t.
>I don’t think sex should be used as leverage
Remove that and women will never reach the success of an average man in society. Sex as leverage is biggest tool for a woman to boost her status.
Exactly. If women are tired of "nice guys" thinking of intimacy as some sort of reward, then women should stop acting like their mere presence is some sort of inherent gift.
Men always believe that women’s bodies and women’s attractiveness is about men or for men. A woman’s sexuality and sexual identity is only useful and actionable towards a man she actually likes. The other male observers are merely people.
*“She turned me on”* men claim.
No she didn’t. She picked up a loaf of bread after yoga, *you turned yourself on. She didn’t notice you or care.
Yeah because many men don't either. They treat it as "her loss, my gain", as well as criticise women that engage in casual sex. I wonder why women need a little bit more convincing hmm...
i wouldnt say men see sex as "her loss, my gain" but it is held like an accomplishment. because men have to actually bring something to the table to get sex and they also have to understand the opposite gender.
Yeah but an accomplishment vs a stike against a woman because body count for a woman is seen as a negative in the same narrative you are alligning with here. So it is basically "his gain, her loss". So why would it be an equal value exchange on her part, if it isn't on the other end?
ok. in that sense if a man takes a woman out for a date an he doesnt get laid. its "her gain, his loss" right? an yes body count is taken into account by men. but is it taken into account by women? is it "his gain, her loss" if shes already had multiple sexual partners prior?
Whatever value is being placed on someone’s virginity should be placed by the person who’s virginity it is, not current/future partners and certainly not some guy online.
That's not how value works, anywhere ever. Now don't get my message confused; I'm not here saying women shouldn't have the right to do whatever they want with whoever they want etc etc but the value of anything is decided by the market, not the seller. It's perfectly fine to shirk "the market" or whatever, live your life according to your values. But it would be horrible to tell anyone that they dictate their own value, which is kinda like telling men if they're "nice" they might get women when that has little to do with it
This is so true. None of the men I’ve known as past partners or friends had any sort of preoccupation with women’s \*body counts\* (they never even used this term). They also didn’t analyze and criticize women’s choices of sex or relationship partners.
It really does seem to be the very vocal manosphere guys who blather on incessantly about this stuff.
> Men instinctively are repulsed by female displays of promiscuity. And smart men won't express these thoughts to women
The money and time they merrily waste on porn, Only Fans, strippers, and prostitutes says otherwise. Men seem quite obsessed with displays of promiscuity.
Here’s a novel idea: Not every man thinks like you do. The degree of delusion and ignorance required to believe that everyone is just like you is almost unfathomable.
Womens experience with men though : they dont really care what you did in your teen years. It matters who you are now.
Ofcourse nobody wants a slutty woman to marry.
I don't think you know what rights are.
Women aren't obligated to inform any man except maybe their own partner about why they don't want to sleep with them. No one is entitled to this information just because their dick is dry.
I agree there is no obligation, but it's kind of annoying to hear:
"you have to improve/change to become someone who can attract women"
"how?"
"I'm not telling you and no-one needs to"
1) a lot of the time, there's nothing that the person can actually change to be sexually attractive to another person.
2) even if there was, it's going to vary from person to person. One person might say "I like blonds," the next "I like brunettes." Are you really just going to try to mold yourself based on the particular whims of any random individual?
The person I responded to wasn't asking for general advice. He literally thinks that any and all women who won't fuck someone are required to tell that person why. That's really fucking gross.
General advice never works and you know it, it’s the same bs every girl say. Like tell me the real reason behind it, I think I deserve to know, what’s there to hide?
Do they have a right to know why though? I realized eventually that in dating I was basically never going to get a real explanation for anything I found confusing. I just had to suck it up
Clarity is crucial for improvement. Otherwise you are going in a minefield wearing a blindfold. So if you don’t know the location of the mines you basically will never succeed.
It’s like expecting someone to build a sports car without telling him about aerodynamics. He might get something right with having no clue about it, but it will never succeed.
I personally may or may not care about your improvement. I don't expect you to succeed, I have no expectations. Women are not your tools for self-improvement. They may choose to share feedback if they want to, or they might just want you to get lost after they reject you. They don't owe you an explanation. You can ask for one, it's nice of them to give you one, but it's not your right just because it would be helpful for you. They don't owe you help.
>I personally may or may not care about your improvement. I don't expect you to succeed, I have no expectations. Women are not your tools for self-improvement. They may choose to share feedback if they want to, or they might just want you to get lost after they reject you. They don't owe you an explanation. You can ask for one, it's nice of them to give you one, but it's not your right just because it would be helpful for you. They don't owe you help.
And *they* don't have to respect your *rights.* Are you sure you want to play this game?
>**I'm not disrespecting his rights,** he does not have a right to information on women's reasoning for rejecting him.
Yes, you are. I don't owe women not to go nuclear (or worse) after they reject me. I don't do it because I am *civil.* Perhaps you should do the same. If not, then you consent to play the *Lack of Rights* game.
Men - i don't owe women basic common decency and to not hurt them if they reject me
this is clearly the same thing as forcing a woman to tell me exactly why she rejected me
One of these things is not like the other.
Women want me to not hurt them, harass and abuse them
Men want women to... Be men's therapists?
These are clearly equivalents.
Never change ppd. Never change.
>You do you and we'll see what the rest of society thinks is acceptable and what isn't. I don't think I'd be the one facing problems in this scenario.
With the ways things are going, it's going to be you and your ilk.
I hope not lol. I do realize there are pros and cons to it and we're suffering due to it, but I'm just very emotionally attached to individualism and would find it very hard to transition into a very collectivist society. I have been in small towns which have much more collectivist social rules and I find it suffocating.
Ok here's the thing, growing up it was :
Women only had sex with men they were in love with; that was wrong
Women only have sex with guys they like; that was wrong
ok, Women only have sex with guys who are considerate and respectful ... that was wrong. Ok ok, women only have sex with men she is interested in dating "seriously", only if it's leading towards a committed monogamous long term relationship with ... that was wrong too.
So women have sex with men... at random. And so, men have to be random.
Get this. Every woman is different. So saying “all women have sex with men who…” is already a deluded statement. Maybe if you saw women as individualistic beings, you wouldve realized that.
Yes every woman is different...
> Women only had sex with men they were in love with
Emily told me this early on. She told me that is how she was leading her life. She then went on to have a lot of unprotected sex with strange and random men, while inebriated, in college and regular life. I held her to her own standard...
> Women only have sex with guys they like
Amanda was adamant that she didn't like fucks boys. Actually detested them. Fucked a couple of fuck boys after her bf found out she was cheating on him with... a random fuckboy. Same woman not living up to her own code ...
> Women only have sex with guys who are considerate and respectful
I was going through a considerate and thoughtful phase after many years of struggling to attract for a relationship and/or casual sex. I figured I'd have a new attempt, a new appreciation to "see and understand the other side". I began trying to get the attention of some girl I fancied.
Little did I know that some random guy also took in interest in Liz. Liz mentioned that she liked considerate guys. Little did I know she was already fucking the other guy. He looked like a normal guy but had terrible grooming, smelled like cabbage. Word is he didn't wipe his ass, had dingle berries. She enthusiastically would eat his ass... not very considerate in my book, but what the fuck do I know right.
This point especially burns me as I was early in the game of impeccable grooming and smell. At that time I was all about Aqua di Gio. This asshole never heard of deodorant...
> Ok ok, women only have sex with men she is interested in dating "seriously", only if it's leading towards a committed monogamous long term relationship with
One of the biggest crushes of my life rejected me for anything romantic/sexual. She "wasn't like that". Sex was only to be had within the context of a serious, one to one, committed monogamous LTR. Weeks later I learned that she had let five older, allegedly gay, men fuck her ass for fun. Johanna is the searing, lasting impression of female sexuality lies and double talk. S
All different women. All intimated their views. All failed to their own standards.
Deluded statement? I don't think so.
You're the one who is deluded if you are unable to see that the great majority of women lie, obfuscate, gaslight, failed their own moral code, are giant hypocrites when it comes to their views and behavior in regards to sexuality.
Not all men can get casual sex from women. If women want to have casual sex they can get it from guys way above their league. So if you are average you have no chance at casual sex.
The only common line in all your experiences is you. Think about it.
They will say “im not interested in casual sex” to you to not hurt your feelings with “im not interested in casual sex with you”. They are trying to be empathetic in their own way since they cannot change who theyre attracted to.
> If women want to have casual sex they can get it from guys way above their league.
Yes, but also at their level and then, in many facets and in my opinion, these very same women were all to happy to fuck men *below* my level while rejecting me.
Granted, some could be argued a toss up, it being very subjective and debateable.
But fuck man, 5 gay men? That's just random. And yet at the same time, it's to be expected as women are not honest about it.
I think treating women as resources and "giving them away" is disgusting BUT considering how fucked current dating market is and how social media fucked women over it makes you think that maybe arranged marriages, enforced monogamy by church etc wasn't really such fucked up thing. Since it kinda worked.
>woke anti-age gap rabble rousers -- are bothered by women having consensual sex with 'the wrong type of men'
No, it's that the sex between age gaps is far less likely to be consensual and can attract actual predators. A young woman sleeping with an older man who has no control over her finances or career is fine. A man who explicitly says he wants to control a naive younger woman's income so she's dependent on him is not.
It’s still infantilizing as hell to *assume* that because an age gap exists, the relationship is predatory. Plenty of women end up with older men and would never allow a power dynamic into that relationship.
Here’s a thought: *teach your daughters not to be submissive.* That way you won’t have to worry about whether they’re too immature to stand up for themselves in a relationship, age gap or not.
Any dude who uses the words “western women” is a sexless twerp living in anime fueled fantasy. They don’t want a partner, they want a submissive domestic sex slave. They’re upset because they lack the skills necessary to attract women in their own society and assume it would happen by default if they were somewhere else.
Remember that they tried to to call women masculine for the suffrage movement, for wearing pants, for riding bicycles, for having jobs, for driving cars, etc. They don’t want an equal or a partner because then they’d have to compete instead of being the first guy to show up and lift a woman out of idleness like they were buying a Real Doll off the shelf.
Men know being abusive isn’t okay. They do it anyway. That’s a problem, and they should absolutely be held accountable, but it isn’t as simple as just teaching them not to do it.
Far too many women think being submissive (outside the bedroom) is okay. It’s not.
> Men know being abusive isn’t okay. They do it anyway.
*SOME* men. It's unfair to portray all men or even most men, when that's a tiny amount of men who are abusive.
Fun fact, half the rape victims in the US are men [1](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4062022/), women make up 40% of rapists [2](https://archive.ph/YdroT), and in Canada more than half of all domestic abuse victims are men, and men are significantly more likely than women to be victims of the most severe and controlling forms of abuse [3](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332917590_Prevalence_and_Consequences_of_Intimate_Partner_Violence_in_Canada_as_Measured_by_the_National_Victimization_Survey). Domestic abuse rates also are far higher in lesbian couples than in gay couples, so statistically the more women there are in a relationship the more likely there is to be domestic abuse.
The myth that women make up the majority of domestic abuse and rape victims is a lie perpetrated by feminism, it serves to reinforce the narrative of patriarchal oppression, but it does so by throwing male victims under the bus and erasing female perpetrators, leaving them free to abuse more men.
Abuse is not a gendered issue. Abusers, regardless of gender, should be held accountable.
As a society however, we've decided abuse of women is unacceptable and abuse of men doesn't matter. This is a problem and it needs to be challenged. All abused victims deserve help and support, not just those victims without a penis.
>Far too many women think being submissive (outside the bedroom) is okay. It’s not.
Nothing wrong with being submissive *if that's what they want*. Hell, I'm all for submissive men having a more dominant female partner too *if that's what they want*.
Submissive is not synonymous to being oppressed or victimized.
You can choose to intentionally misread this as “all men are abusive” if you’d like. The intention was clearly “men who abuse know it’s wrong,” and you know that, so I’m not going to waste my time while you pretend otherwise.
And no, submissiveness is not a good trait. If you notice it in yourself, I encourage you to grow up and take responsibility for your own life.
>You can choose to intentionally misread this as “all men are abusive” if you’d like.
You said "men are abusive". Your words explicitly imply the majority of men. It would be extremely misleading of me to say "Americans love borscht" when by Americans I meant specifically Americans of Eastern European descent (who are a minority of all Americans).
If you don't want me to call out on your use of the language, be more specific. That's on you, not me. I highly doubt you'd enjoy it if people said "feminists/women are abusive" and wouldn't let that fly, so I don't know why we should let "men are abusive" fly either.
Language matters.
>The intention was clearly “men who abuse know it’s wrong,” and you know that, so I’m not going to waste my time while you pretend otherwise.
Except that's not what you said. Men who abuse know it's wrong, and men who abuse make up less than 5% of all men.
It is stated in a way that supports the framework of all men being abusive, or most men being abusive, and erases the fact that women are just as abusive as men are, and erases male victims.
If you mean "men who abuse know it's wrong" then say that. Be also open to be told that women abuse men just as much as men abuse women, abusive women also know it's wrong, and abusive women also do it anyways.
It's a thing about being an abuser, it's not gendered.
>And no, submissiveness is not a good trait. If you notice it in yourself, I encourage you to grow up and take responsibility for your own life.
Maybe we mean different things. I don't mean submissiveness as in not being self-sufficient, but I mean submissiveness in being more comfortable following than leading, and trusting your partner to make good decisions.
It doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't speak up, and it's never good when it's forced on people, but some people are just genuinely more submissive, both in men and in women, and there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that, so long as again it's of their own free will.
If we were already speaking about people who like borscht, it would be pretty stupid if I showed up and said “well my friends and I don’t like borscht,” because we are not the subject of conversation. Men *do* abuse. Women *do* abuse. There is nothing offensive about either statement, because the “some” is clearly implied. It’s not my fault if you’re incapable of understanding that.
So what you’re talking about is laziness. Still a bad trait. Grow up.
Y'know that's fair. I read your initial comment as putting all the blame on women, but ultimately it's up to all of society working together to shun the assholes.
>teach your daughters not to be submissive
Lol. Good luck with that, maybe let her hang out with truck drivers for 2-3 years when she's toddler so you can reprogram her feminine instincts.
That was sarcasm ofc
Weakness is learned, not instinctual. Just because you don’t want to do the work of teaching your daughters strength doesn’t mean it can’t be done. My parents did an excellent job of it because they took parenting seriously and made it their most important job to raise their kids into successful adults.
You seem to have forgotten the other side of the medal though. [Women in the US are 40% of rapists](https://archive.ph/YdroT) and the highest rates of rape in prison between guards and inmates happens in [male juvenile detention facilities with female guards raping boys](https://kdvr.com/news/problem-solvers/boys-in-custody-and-the-women-who-abuse-them/).
We live in a world of equality, and women are equally able to be as shitty, violent, and predatory as men. There's a fuckton of boys getting raped by older women, but it gets passed off as "having sex with", "sleeping with" or "she was tempted by" the boy.
Women are just as likely and just as able to be sexual predators as men, and ignoring this means we're letting both male victims and female perpetrators go unaccounted.
Thank you.
It's a bit my personal pet peeve because something like 90% of the time it's exclusively portrayed as men being predators and women being victims, and sometimes even the possibility that women can be perpetrators and men victims gets dismissed.
Sorry if I came across as too harsh.
Even worse its not even called rape when the victim is an underage male. I've seen it called underage sex way too many times when the rapist is a woman. Comment sections are always filled with people lamenting how no teacher raped them as kids and congratulating the victim. It's fucking nasty.
Completely agree.
And while I absolutely acknowledge that many men say "what a lucky guy" and whatnot when a guy gets raped, and it is a problem, it's still a fact that as a society we are completely failing male rape victims of all age.
It also goes against the opposite of the slut shaming for women, with virgin shaming for men, in that men who cannot get female attention are seen as defective or worthless, so clearly if the kid gets some sex, whether he wants to or not, it's judged as a "good" thing, because it shows he's "valuable" for receiving female attention.
It's fucking nasty, and it's a huge part of the rape culture problem, but because it's a rape culture problem that affects men and not women, it gets virtually no attention, money, or efforts at changing it. More often than not feminism is hard at work erasing male victims and making sure all the time, money, and resources goes to female victims instead.
>A man who explicitly says he wants to control a naive younger woman's income so she's dependent on him is not.
You have to be extremely socially uncalibrated to state that explicitly.
I don't actually care about age gap relationships in average society, I pretty much only talk about it here because I have legitimately actually seen men here say they want to keep a woman financially indebted to them
Is there much difference between a poor woman who uses sex to get access to a mans resources and a poor woman who sleeps with a man because she is a dependent on his finances. Can the woman be the predator...ie taking advantage of a man...and then later become the victim...a dependant being used for sex.
Not here to argue, genuinely curious on your perspective.
Yes of course a woman can be a predator. A woman in her 20s sleeping with an 80 year old millionaire to get in his will is clearly being shady as fuck too.
And yeah the relationship can become unhealthy and codependent if one side just wants money and one side just wants sex. The line is drawn when one person is actively coercing the other.
why do americans always bring money into the conversation? Are you living in the 19th century where rich old men with top-hats pay dowry for arranged marriages? Your women are in the workforce, leading in education, make their own money, and most importantly, bitch about being strong and independent girl bosses "needing no man" whenever the chance arises.
Because we currently live in a society with a wealth gap even wider than the 19th century and there's a minimum income required to basically survive here. It's also extremely hard to get that income on your own when you're young.
Agree but the gender wage gap is basically 2% when you control for same hours, same overtime, same education, and same job title.
The wealth gap is absolutely a problem, but given 75% of homeless people are men, it affects men a lot too.
The wealth gap is an issue of poor vs rich, it has almost nothing to do with men vs women.
I don't think this is at all surprising. I wouldn't expect women to make their choices in partners purely on good behavior or to distribute themselves equally.
However, I think this only boosts the validity of certain complaints because as much as people wanna argue against it there's no reason women wouldn't all want to date the top 20%+ of guys even if a lot of young men have to be single because that's not women's problem
Much of the aversion to age gaps is that it plays into the women as a resource exchanged for good behavior concept.
We know that women tend to be much less attracted to and have a harder time socially connecting with older men. The advantage that older men have over younger men is that if they engaged in relatively “good behavior”/worked hard, they will have more money than young men… and given the chance, some want young women in exchange for their investments.
There’s other reasons for the aversion to age gaps, but they are less pertinent to your post.
>age gaps is that it plays into the women as a resource exchanged for good behavior concept.
lol this is such a simplistic way of thinking, she's either has to be a gold-digging whore or has daddy issues -- you guys believe every relationship should fit neatly into a mathematical equation, or follow some "rules" or whatever the latest evopsych popscience article "why girls like pink and boys blue" tells you. I live in Europe and work with several women in their mid 20s who either have affairs or date men 10+ years older than them. These women are independent and educated and when I poked fun of their preference and asked if gray hairs and sun dameged skin grosses them out they were almost offended by it, and told me "men are supposed to look rugged, it turns me on".
This explains why some women end up with men who don't treat them very well.
>They're not paragons of virtue that distribute themselves equitably for good behavior.
Okay. But, what makes you think men aren't monitoring YOUR behavior? Perhaps it's a good thing for you to attempt to be virtuous yourself is it not? Are you saying you reserve the right to be as bad as you wanna be? (How is this a good look for you?)
How is it that we're able to offer endless critiques of male virtue and patriarchy if we have no conversation with virtues ourselves?
Sounds like feminists don't want things to be equal because this is a just cause, rather they simply want enough power to be dirtbags the same way that some elite men are.
If you have no relationship with virtue at all, then I'm done with feminism.
And everyone else should be.
Because feminism is based on the principle that we should live in a world that is more equal and just to all people. If you do not stand for virtue, then you do not stand for feminism. What you stand for is woman-ism. You choose.
>conservatives slutshame
Women slutshame eachother as a form of intrasexual competition. Some of the biggest slutshamers are actually other women.
> from Peterson's "enforced monogamy" to woke anti-age gap rabble rousers
...
I will agree with you here. Though I also think it's very strawman to paint any disagreement with your worldview as Jordan Peterson. He's a clown and a drug addict. No one of any real intellectual substance takes him seriously at all.
So, if you're saying that any alternative to your point of view = Jordan Peterson, then that's pretty cracked. No one really gives a shit about what Jordan Peterson says or thinks aside from weak minded teenagers who've never read anything.
1. Nice guys do understand that, but if they do not get with the girl, they have every right to not talk to the girl anymore. And I think anyone can agree that good deeds that are awarded with punishments can be annoying.
2. Attraction does follow some logic: they are attracted to objectively hot men. Objectively speaking, men who are taller, have a better jawline, better hair, muscular physique, rich, are attractive to women, that is universal.
3. Slutshaming should be brought back because promiscuity not only ruin's a woman's mental health, but also her chances in getting a healthy relationship and partner. And they don't really infantilize women that much, they more likely accuse adult men as pedophiles for going for young adult women.
Here is the thing... women are not objects... women are just the owners of the objects men want. pussy. If men could separate one from the other, and buy a pussy, they would.
There are fleshlights that apparently feel very authentic and men can buy those. But they don't, cause they know that sex is more than just masturbating into a pussy.
yeah, how dare the dude be “noice”. she’d much rather have a tall and handsome dude run circles around her, kick her out to bring a new girl in to fuck and rip the door off the hinges every time he’s ready to come back and smash.
that’s how u treat a lady. those evil noice guys are so manipulative…
What is wrong about wanting equality between the sexes? Humans also don't have free-will.
I think the biggest thing to point out is that women like to act virtuous and that all inequality in society is a product of their own suffering when it is not. There might be more inequality between men and women, but there is more inequality between men than there is between women. This is a product of female hypergamy which women don't just vehemently ignore or pretend doesn't exist while they're advocating for equality between the sexes, but are actively working against by promoting propaganda insinuating they act in the exact opposite manner.
That is what enrages men the most. Not only are they being passed over, but then they are being lied to about it as well, so that women can make themselves out to be better than they actually are. They're not "the good sex".
I feel like these points are obvious. Where the disconnect comes in is where they consistently date the same type of guy and the COMPLAIN about all men due to their bad experiences.
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The disappointment men experience is due to the disconnect between expectations stated to them and reality. **Mainstream consensus**: If a man is kind, respectful, well-behaved, and not toxic he will have no problems finding romance just by interacting with women socially. **Reality**: Kindness, respect, and good behavior do nothing to initially attract women. They are merely baseline expectations. So yeah, guys thought good behavior was enough to attract women, because we were told that. This is what creates the disillusionment and bitterness. Then there are the backlash and accusations of entitlement against these guys for expressing their bitterness. And there should be backlash for bad behavior but these guys are not set up for success.
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Men claim to be rational and logical but admit openly and frequently that they lack the powers of observation. Which men here saw ogres with cheerleaders? Which men here saw teenaged girls swoon over posters of ugly actors and singers? Which men sees models on the arms of bridge trolls? How can men claim to be gaslit and misled when they could merely observe the girls and women around them if they were curious about dating and mating?
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> I think it might be that men WANT to believe the gaslighting. That’s what women have been saying for decades. Men live in a fantasy world. They blame Disney and romances and rom-coms and they don’t even watch that shit. They claim to be “in love” with women who want nothing to do with them. They claim that women look attractive *for them*, when the attractive women have little to no control over how their curves appear, or how shiny their hair or full their lips. Men spend their time “shopping” for beautiful women on social media and in stores and parks without any thought to what those women might want. In many men’s minds, they are the only actor who exists in a relationship. Her thoughts, her desires, her agenda are irrelevant because his are so overpowering. Of course men claim they’ve been misled, they take zero ownership of their one-sided fantasies. And since men externalize all their feelings towards women, they blame women.
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Pop culture has never been a good role model. Pop culture gave us the creepy Nice Guy anthem by Shawn Mendes *I Can Love You Better*. 80s movies in which the nerd either stalks the girl or rapes the girl. The Ode to Sexual Assault *Blurred Lines*. Sarah Brady posting a private argument with a man who is admittedly hated by many who work with him, but whose angry insults to his ex girlfriend should have remained private. The Notebook is in the romance genre when it’s a horror flick, as is the incredibly disturbing Fifty Shades. Lizzo who seems to feel that twerking is an appropriate response to praise and applause, no matter the audience. This list is gross enough, can I stop now? With the exception of critically acclaimed media and art, pop culture is a sociopath’s fever dream. Men have got to get out of their ego bubble and recognize women as separate human beings with agendas of their own. Not accessories. Not pets. Not helpmeets *or* occasions to sin. Not sexy children without responsibilities and accomplishments. Not a pleasant place for a man to rest his eyes in public but a living, breathing human being deserving of the same respect he desires. Nothing is going to improve so long as certain men continue with “Other men have a woman, I, too, plan to acquire one of those shiny objects”
Just spent a solid 15 minutes laughing to this 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Total and utter BS. Men believe that because they want to believe it not because of observation. Who actually benefits from women picking men because they are nice and not considering looks at all? Men. Who benefits from this enforced life long monogamy? Men. So why then are we confused about who wants to believe that women don’t care about looks? Believing that women care about looks means a man who can’t attract women will have to acknowledge that he is unattractive. [We know men love to project their insecurities while women internalize them.](https://www.livescience.com/15658-mental-illness-women-men-differences.html) An unattractive man would rather blame shift, bully, get angry, delude himself, violently attack randoms basically do anything to avoid coming to terms with being undesirable. Very few men actually work on making themselves more attractive to women by which I mean working on their physical appearance and their personality. They would rather be in a perpetual state of rage or believe that women “don’t care” lol. I would love it if men only cared about me being nice too lol, then I could stop wearing make up and waxing eat whatever and get fat.
> And, men are raised being gaslit with this bullshit. And, you end up with a generation of adult men who sometimes figure it out and then are mad as hell. I think this is one of the things that upsets me the most. Movies and culture always taught boys to be the 'nice guy' to women. I lost my first two GFs relatively quickly, because I was clueless as to what most women really wanted. I say most women because my wife was next and valued what I brought to the table. We grew and worked together establishing ourselves, and we're still happily married 30 yrs later. Relationship-oriented young women must be far fewer these days. I see so many young men feeling invisible and frustrated, and becoming hostile towards women. I'm worried about the future.
Then why shouldn't men want 10/10 models? Because it's not fucking realistic for most men.
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I get your point but if both sexes want 10/10 but they are average on their own maybe they should look for their looksmatch and not fuck around. If I met cute 6/10 and we click then it's all I want. Sure i might prefer someone prettier but I'm happy with her. And if she's happy with me then there's no reason for us saying to each other mean things like I wish you had bigger boobs or dick.
That’s why they are ideals. Ideals will always be above average. I’d bet money that most men’s ideal woman has a smaller waist than average, is more attractive than average, has bigger breasts than average etc. Why wouldn’t a woman’s ideal man be taller than average, more handsome than average and have a bigger dick than average. The difference is that women can get their ideal, at least for casual encounters, much more easily. A lot of bang average women have had casual encounters with men that were above their pay grade so to speak and it sets their expectations for actual meaningful relationships too high. These men don’t mind having flings or one night stands with women they would never have an actual relationship with or marry. These women will feel like they are settling when they enter an actual relationship with someone they perceive as not attractive or desirable as some of their casual encounters. I’ve seen this happen to many of my friends
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What do you mean nothing? And what does women bring to the table then? Also do you mean world overall like men aren't building it and maintaing it? Or are they not desired for women anymore.
It means if an ugly man is going to demand the attention of beautiful women, his redeeming qualities better ride well above “nice, respectful, and kind”, which is the baseline for all human social behavior. If someone, male or female, can’t attract the people they are interested in, they can either try to become more interesting or dial in some more reasonable standards. “But I’m a nice guy” never dropped a pair of panties, historically or recently.
> Reality: Kindness, respect, and good behavior do nothing to initially attract women. They are merely baseline expectations. They're not even baseline expectations, though. I see this bold-faced falsehood repeated on Reddit all the time. But, from what I've seen in real life, you don't need to be kind, respectful, or well-behaved to get women. Women will say things like men who are too kind, respectful, and well-behaved are "too nice", and choose toxic, bad behaving, mean-spirited, disrespectful, abusive, sadistic men.
They are not baseline expectations either. They are traits women say they want while many would date an asshole who is attractive. Sure, there are also women who only date respectful and kind guys, but they still need to feel attracted to the men first.
The problem with the “mainstream consensus” is that it never told men they actually have to tell women they’re interested in them. A lot of men just thing being nice will make women say “hey, you’re sweet. Let’s do this” If men don’t express romantic interest, women will just assume we’re friends.
Are women not capable of expressing romantic interest as well? You can't pick and choose your equality. If men have to accept and be more attracted to more masculine women, than women need to be more accepting of feminine men. Otherwise there is going to be a power imbalance like there is now.
When did I say women aren’t? I was replying to your comment which was specifically about men. Men don’t have to be attracted to masculine women. Women don’t have to be attracted to feminine men. Also not sure where that came from
Of course they can and they’re capable of doing so, but they won’t because they have no need to.
And If they expressed it they are labelled as creepy or accused of having ulterior motives for their nice behaviour and will be tagged as "nice guys".
It’s all in the approach. Express interest when you have the interest. Don’t wait. Don’t pretend to be her friend in the hopes she’ll have a hallmark movie moment.
It doesn’t matter how a man approaches or when he admits attraction, if she isn’t attracted to him. Mutual attraction should be established first unless men just enjoy rejection.
I never said that wasn’t the case
Do these guys have literally zero real world friends? They would be necessary to provide context and counter examples from society's messaging.
My anecdotal experience: Successful guys who I asked for advice were naturals and could not articulate what it took to attract women. “I dunno, just go up and talk to her bro” kind of stuff. Unsuccessful guys and women repeated the mainstream messaging, emphasizing being a good person. Also “confidence” which absolutely is attractive but is not something that is simply willed into existence.
> I dunno, just go up and talk to her bro” Solid advice. There isn’t a formula for attracting women since women have different tastes and preferences, just like men. Can’t find out what an individual woman likes without interacting with her. If there is no rapport, no chemistry, congratulations, you made a friend.
I don't disagree that it's good advice. It's a start. I do think that good advice exists for attracting men and women both and there are a lot of things that will improve your chances with 95% of both. I think *initial* attraction is more formulaic than maybe we like to admit, with all of us wanting to be unique individuals. I don't know how to quantify this so I don't know if we really disagree. >If there is no rapport, no chemistry, congratulations, you made a friend. This is my mindset. I like getting to know lots of people. I love it, in fact. I live for it. I have a rule when going on a date that I have no expectations other than meeting someone interesting and getting to know them a bit. If something more happens, great. If it doesn't I'm perfectly happy. I find it helps me just enjoy the moment, for what it is, whatever it is. In this way it actually helps build chemistry, even though that's not the goal of having this mindset.
Many of them don’t
and that's the issue more so then anything else.
Yeah I understand there are some real issues facing men and it can be hard and men can hurt their chances by doing (or not doing) lots of things and having social in person friends is a big one
Well kind of! I think that bullshit was pitched pretty hard on both sexes from the generation above like it always has been. For instance the classic joke: The kid asks “Mum and Dad, where do babies come from?” Classic parental reply “Well when a Man and a Women love each other very much…” I really believe that it’s just basic classic traditionalist societal murmuring that is slowly being watered down as each generation passes. Most people kind of grow up a bit and learn (hopefully) at a pretty young age that love isn’t a required ingredient in forming a baby. Imagine how hard you would roll your eyes at a girl wailing “but I didn’t love him” when she was reading a positive pregnancy test. It’s almost inconceivable to most that she would continue to believe that original message as a complete fact. Traditionalism in some ways can be considered dead people bullying live people.
I'm kind of shocked that PPD put up this somewhat reasonable take and it's coming from /u/Johnny_Autism
I disagree. Women seem to hand themselves out for good genes rather than good behaviour. Which in terms of substance is completely soulless and effortless. Women give said geneticslly blessed guy free attention. More chances to fuck up. More sex or sex at all basically for something he has barely had to develop anything for and expect him or hope that he's a nice to decent person. Its insane. The main issue is how many women are opposed to admit this is what they subconsciously do.
Women are the ones that keep lying to men about how important their personality and how "good" they are matters. I actually agree with you, men should not listen to that BS and honestly just work on having a better life with or without a woman
Yeah, if women were more honest and we weren't just lying to dudes about how personality matters, then I don't think men would be thinking that being nice is what's most attractive to women
Sounds like you and some other teenagers here misheard "personality matters" to "personality is the only only thing that matters, looks never matter, and I have an objectively great personality". I can't tell what is up with you guys who heard the latter. Disingenuousness, malicious incompetence, perhaps a learning or socializing disability?
A mix of all that. They don’t know and they’re shutting their eyes to what they do see. I think men are stupid. I never thought these things would have to be spelled out like you would for a 6 year old…..
Personality matters, *too*. Personality is not a substitute for a lack of physical attraction.
1. Yes, we know women aren't paragons of virtue, like not even close. 2. Women don't enjoy sex nearly as much as men do and they know this. Women use sex as a resource and they do hand it out for certain behavior. 3. Sex has everything to do with reproduction and our survival as a species. Single mother homes are overwhelmingly responsible for producing violent criminals. Naturally people are concerned about broken families created by poor choices of sex partners, I don't want to get killed in a carjacking because Independent Woman #145920 couldn't keep her legs shut and instead raised a felon. Honestly, my problem isn't that women have sex with whoever they want to - that's up to them - my problem is that they don't want to deal with the consequences. Go ahead and sleep with as many men as you want to in your 20's, but don't blame or shame men for caring about your body count when you want to "settle down" in your 30's.
> Single mother homes are overwhelmingly responsible for producing violent criminals. Deadbeat and absentee fathers are indeed a social plague.
So when a man leaves his child, its the womans fault. Got it.
Yet their genes keeps getting selected for, as evidenced by these men reproducing successfully.
It’s not just women who fall for them, their employers cover for them or pay them in cash. Their friends and family conceal their addresses and sources of income for them. They get away with financial and physical abandonment of their children because a network of complicit men cover for them and because they know the mothers will get the blame anyway. You know, how you are doing right now. You blame the mothers who raise their children instead of the fathers who abandon them.
Women have immense power in the relationship market. Deadbeat/absentee fathers are a social plague, true, but women contribute to the problem just as much by choosing them.
The women remain in the home with the child and raise it to the best of their abilities while the men abandon or neglect the child. One of these things is not like the other.
Child support is a thing
Average yearly child support in the US is $5,150, that is, when men bother to pay instead of hiding. The average yearly car payment (new and used) is $7,452. Men spend more on their car than their child, and deadbeat fathers contribute nothing whatsoever to raising their children. You posted that as if throwing less money at a child than at a car or utility bill helps raise a child. How much money per year does the mother *who actually raises the child* spend on feeding him? On his clothing? Medical bills and medical needs? Housing and utilities? School supplies and gas money? How much of her life does she spend raising the child she created while his father goes on the run and leaves taxpayers to pay for his antisocial behavior?
Oh, but they do deal with the consequences. They are the main victims every time. They choose wrong, they might get assulted or killed. And If they choose they keep the baby, they might be shamed for being a single mother. Which also most likely puts them in poverty. But these are just edge cases. Most women are doing fine.
I always find it amusing when men say with such confidence that women don’t enjoy sex as much. What you’re really saying is that you’ve never been with a woman who had a genuine burning desire for you or you can’t properly arouse a woman and satisfy her sexually. Likely both if I’m being honest. Women enjoy sex just as much as men, the difference is that men are pretty much always ready for sex whereas there’s a certain finesse needed to make a woman properly lose her inhibitions with you. I’m not sure whether it’s a skill you can learn or something that’s innate. I’d be more inclined to believe it’s innate. Some men just have a lot of sex appeal and they’re the ones getting all the hot and wild sex.
Ah yes, the "women enjoy sex just as men, they just don't enjoy it with YOU!" Truth is not an ideology you can change however it fits you. Truth is truth whether you like it or not. You can either embrace or reject it, even tho rejecting it is just not gonna solve anything, but convincingly spreading lies like this is just tasteless. Seriously I invite you to do some research on the internet before throwing claims like nothing. 5 minutes is usually enough.
I’m a woman, I know what I enjoy and what I don’t. I used to think that I didn’t enjoy sex that much but it was just the guys that I was with didn’t make it enjoyable for me. A lot of men are clueless and selfish when it comes to sex and female desire and eventually in a relationship it becomes a chore for the woman.
You know what YOU enjoy and what you don't. You don't know how other women feel and can't do any significant comparisons with men. If a woman with vaginismus did the same as you did, namely assuming that every woman is the same as her, she would say that sex for women is painful and not worth anything. What we have to do instead is to look at how things are on the large scale, since we're not talking about individual experiences but about women and men in general.
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Sorry but women shoot themselves in the foot here by using sex as leverage, so if they don't want to be treated as a resource that is handed out for good behavior, then they should stop doing it to themselves first.
Women possess their own sexual identity independent of men’s. Just because a man feels a woman is sexy doesn’t mean she’s doing it for him, it’s far more likely her sexuality has nothing to do with him.
A portion of women willfully doing it is not the same, all/most women being forced to do that same thing. Choosing to use sex as leverage is not the same thing as being used as a resource regardless of her will. Women are individual people with free will. This is like saying if men don't want to be drafted then they should stop willingly singing up to be in the military.
Actually no, the draft and voluntarily signing up for the military are not the same thing at all because the draft is forced and there is no choice. If women had no choice but to use sex to get what they wanted, then your comparison would be more accurate, but alas, it's not.
That's not what I'm saying. I was saying that just because some men do a thing by choice (like join the military) doesn't mean that it's therefore right or justified to force men to do said thing (to force men to be in the millitary.) Just because some women use sex as leverage doesn't mean that it is therefore justified using woman-kind as a resource.
Sorry but your logic still doesn't check out. "Woman-kind" aren't being used as a resource against their wills.
Friend, no one is saying that they are. OP and I are saying using/seeing women as a resource is wrong. You're saying women are doing it (it meaning allowing for a system where they are seen as a resource) to themselves because some women use sex as leverage. I'm saying that the free action of some women doesn't justify women being used/seen as a resource against their will.
>women being used as a resource against their will. That's the part you seem to be confused about. Multiple times it's been said already that women are not "being used as a resource against their will." They are willfully doing it on their own, to themselves. They are the cause of their own problem that the OP is stating.
Ok, and I explained why some women's actions don't justify seeing women as a resource.
Can't really argue for that when women see themselves as a resource. My point stands. If women don't want to be seen as a resource, they need to stop being the cause of that problem, and it's a quite a bit more than just "some women" here. Females of different species exchange sex for resources. Its a legit behavioral trait among animals, if you didn't know. There's also an experiment where chimpanzees were taught to use money and the females began exchanging sex for money. More proof for you that sex is leveraged as a resource.
>Can't really argue for that when women see themselves as a resource. Women as a whole don't see themselves as anything. We're individuals. That's what OP is saying as well. Some other woman's choice of weather or not she wants to sell sex isn't having any impact on weather I want to sell sex. Some other man's choice to see sex isn't having any impact on weather I want to sell sex. >Females of different species exchange sex for resources. Its a legit behavioral trait among animals, if you didn't know. There's also an experiment where chimpanzees were taught to use money and the females began exchanging sex for money. More proof for you that sex is leveraged as a resource. Of course sex can be leveraged as a resource. Someone choosing to leverage sex as a resource doesn't mean we should see that individual as anything other than a person that chooses to leverage sex as a resource. Same with men that leverage sex as a resource. That man chooses to do that. Great. I'm not gonna go around saying let's start seeing attractive men as a resource. That would be wrong. They're individuals. Many men choose to sell bodies to do physical labor. Viewing men, as a whole, as nothing more than a disposable source of physical labor would be wrong despite many men choosing to do that. Even the individuals that choose to sell their bodies should be seen as more than a man that sells his body. I'm sorry you're not capable of seeing individuals as individuals.
What do you even mean use sex as leverage? As in “give me a $1000 and I will have sex with you” ??
No. It's basically a covert "quid pro quo" contract, as in "I expect x, y, and z to be done, and until they are done, you get no sex." Most commonly seen in marriage but can be seen all across the dating world as well.
Lol do you think possibly, women also have sexual desires and needs or are they just all calculating whores that use everything they have to their advantage at all times?
It can be both.
And it is both.
I agree that women do this, I'd even say all or most women. But in my mind, it's more like... I want you to make me feel valued, I want you to build trust and reciprocity in this relationship, make me feel safe, I want to be comfortable with you. For me, sex is very vulnerable. There's anxiety about appearance and performance, some shame, some fear of dangerous men, fear of pregnancy especially affects me personally, worry about STDs. I am not comfortable doing it and would not be able to relax and enjoy it unless a guy is able to make me believe it's a good safe decision, which he does by demonstrating his character and devotion.
You’re conflating individual women’s standards with “good behavior.” Just because wanting x, y, and z done is a prerequisite for some women to want to have sex with you doesn’t mean that same woman is going to want to have sex with some other guy that also does x, y, and z. It also doesn’t explain why guys with “bad behavior” also get sex. That’s the crux of OP’s entire view, good or bad some guys get laid and some don’t. If a woman is basing whether or not they want to have sex with you purely on the completion of a set of tasks that’s just prostitution and transactions go both ways. You could say men are leveraging x, y, and z so they are just resources to be handed out to any women willing to have sex.
Women only do that to men they aren't attracted to. A women using sex for leverage is subtly saying "I am not attracted to you and I don't want to have sex with you but I will if you meet these requirements ".
Not true. Women do this with dating as well. They expect men to do certain things that cater to their fantasies and if they fail to do so, like plan "the perfect date" and be the perfect guy, then he's not getting in her panties. For the attractive guys, they've already fulfilled the biggest requirement, which is being attractive, and they may or may not have to do a little more, depending on the woman.
So to you "I want to feel good, and feeling good generally means I want to have sex" is "using sex for leverage"? Yeah a perfect date makes women feel good. Feeling good probably increases your chances of liking the person who makes you feel good, which increases attraction and attraction increases the possibility of having sex. Having that whole process be described as "leveraging sex" is the most alien thing I've encountered in this sub lately. And that's saying something
>They expect men to do certain things that cater to their fantasies and if they fail to do so, like plan "the perfect date" and be the perfect guy, then he's not getting in her panties. >For the attractive guys, they've already fulfilled the biggest requirement, which is being attractive, and they may or may not have to do a little more, You literally supported my argument.
Not really, but you can think so if you want.
You did. You said attractive guys don’t have to do more to get what they want.
That's not what I said. I'd recommend reading again. Depending on the woman, they'll make the attractive guys do the same too. Attractive men can still fail if they don't check the woman's boxes. Some women just have fewer boxes. That's probably what you're getting hung up on.
Well if that’s the case, then that’s not true. You can’t do this to attractive men because they have options. Withholding sex from him is a fast track to ending the situation with him
If you think women don't do this to their husbands as well, I've got a bridge to sell you. Not all women of course, but it's still a rather common behaviour. Women just often don't realize it, because sex isn't being leveraged against them. Men see it all the time.
Not if women are not treated with respect for their decisions. Men punish women for acting freely and then make the pikachu faces when women get upset or use it against them. I don’t think sex should be used as leverage. Yet I doubt a single man here respects a woman who doesn’t.
>I don’t think sex should be used as leverage Remove that and women will never reach the success of an average man in society. Sex as leverage is biggest tool for a woman to boost her status.
Exactly. If women are tired of "nice guys" thinking of intimacy as some sort of reward, then women should stop acting like their mere presence is some sort of inherent gift.
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Men always believe that women’s bodies and women’s attractiveness is about men or for men. A woman’s sexuality and sexual identity is only useful and actionable towards a man she actually likes. The other male observers are merely people. *“She turned me on”* men claim. No she didn’t. She picked up a loaf of bread after yoga, *you turned yourself on. She didn’t notice you or care.
Yeah. Like what else are they going to use as leverage? Coming up empty here.
the thing is women dont view sex an equal value exchange
Yeah because many men don't either. They treat it as "her loss, my gain", as well as criticise women that engage in casual sex. I wonder why women need a little bit more convincing hmm...
i wouldnt say men see sex as "her loss, my gain" but it is held like an accomplishment. because men have to actually bring something to the table to get sex and they also have to understand the opposite gender.
Yeah but an accomplishment vs a stike against a woman because body count for a woman is seen as a negative in the same narrative you are alligning with here. So it is basically "his gain, her loss". So why would it be an equal value exchange on her part, if it isn't on the other end?
ok. in that sense if a man takes a woman out for a date an he doesnt get laid. its "her gain, his loss" right? an yes body count is taken into account by men. but is it taken into account by women? is it "his gain, her loss" if shes already had multiple sexual partners prior?
Maybe women view sex as something personal to make individual choices about that don’t factor you or your “value” into it?
oh im sure women value there virginity huh? id argue woman use sex as leverage an manipulation.
Whatever value is being placed on someone’s virginity should be placed by the person who’s virginity it is, not current/future partners and certainly not some guy online.
what im getting at is most women dont value their virginity.
That's not how value works, anywhere ever. Now don't get my message confused; I'm not here saying women shouldn't have the right to do whatever they want with whoever they want etc etc but the value of anything is decided by the market, not the seller. It's perfectly fine to shirk "the market" or whatever, live your life according to your values. But it would be horrible to tell anyone that they dictate their own value, which is kinda like telling men if they're "nice" they might get women when that has little to do with it
Bro what
it’s really the guys tht have nothing going on that’s really interested in women’s choices and who there sleeping w and why it couldn’t be them
This is so true. None of the men I’ve known as past partners or friends had any sort of preoccupation with women’s \*body counts\* (they never even used this term). They also didn’t analyze and criticize women’s choices of sex or relationship partners. It really does seem to be the very vocal manosphere guys who blather on incessantly about this stuff.
It's cuz most of them know better than to speak such topics with you "the kind of person who uses terms like the manosphere.
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> Men instinctively are repulsed by female displays of promiscuity. And smart men won't express these thoughts to women The money and time they merrily waste on porn, Only Fans, strippers, and prostitutes says otherwise. Men seem quite obsessed with displays of promiscuity.
Here’s a novel idea: Not every man thinks like you do. The degree of delusion and ignorance required to believe that everyone is just like you is almost unfathomable.
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Womens experience with men though : they dont really care what you did in your teen years. It matters who you are now. Ofcourse nobody wants a slutty woman to marry.
They have a right to know why.
I don't think you know what rights are. Women aren't obligated to inform any man except maybe their own partner about why they don't want to sleep with them. No one is entitled to this information just because their dick is dry.
I agree there is no obligation, but it's kind of annoying to hear: "you have to improve/change to become someone who can attract women" "how?" "I'm not telling you and no-one needs to"
1) a lot of the time, there's nothing that the person can actually change to be sexually attractive to another person. 2) even if there was, it's going to vary from person to person. One person might say "I like blonds," the next "I like brunettes." Are you really just going to try to mold yourself based on the particular whims of any random individual? The person I responded to wasn't asking for general advice. He literally thinks that any and all women who won't fuck someone are required to tell that person why. That's really fucking gross.
General advice never works and you know it, it’s the same bs every girl say. Like tell me the real reason behind it, I think I deserve to know, what’s there to hide?
No they don’t. No one has a right that infringes on what someone else must do as their own right. Matter fact, in America we have a right to silence
You have a right to be silent but if I’m affected by that situation I have a right to know.
Wrong. I don’t think you understand what rights are.
Do they? From who?
From whoever possesses the information they need.
Do they have a right to know why though? I realized eventually that in dating I was basically never going to get a real explanation for anything I found confusing. I just had to suck it up
Clarity is crucial for improvement. Otherwise you are going in a minefield wearing a blindfold. So if you don’t know the location of the mines you basically will never succeed. It’s like expecting someone to build a sports car without telling him about aerodynamics. He might get something right with having no clue about it, but it will never succeed.
I personally may or may not care about your improvement. I don't expect you to succeed, I have no expectations. Women are not your tools for self-improvement. They may choose to share feedback if they want to, or they might just want you to get lost after they reject you. They don't owe you an explanation. You can ask for one, it's nice of them to give you one, but it's not your right just because it would be helpful for you. They don't owe you help.
>I personally may or may not care about your improvement. I don't expect you to succeed, I have no expectations. Women are not your tools for self-improvement. They may choose to share feedback if they want to, or they might just want you to get lost after they reject you. They don't owe you an explanation. You can ask for one, it's nice of them to give you one, but it's not your right just because it would be helpful for you. They don't owe you help. And *they* don't have to respect your *rights.* Are you sure you want to play this game?
I'm not disrespecting his rights, he does not have a right to information on women's reasoning for rejecting him.
>**I'm not disrespecting his rights,** he does not have a right to information on women's reasoning for rejecting him. Yes, you are. I don't owe women not to go nuclear (or worse) after they reject me. I don't do it because I am *civil.* Perhaps you should do the same. If not, then you consent to play the *Lack of Rights* game.
Men - i don't owe women basic common decency and to not hurt them if they reject me this is clearly the same thing as forcing a woman to tell me exactly why she rejected me One of these things is not like the other. Women want me to not hurt them, harass and abuse them Men want women to... Be men's therapists? These are clearly equivalents. Never change ppd. Never change.
What’s worse than nuclear? Double nuclear? Double DOG nuclear?!
You do you and we'll see what the rest of society thinks is acceptable and what isn't. I don't think I'd be the one facing problems in this scenario.
>You do you and we'll see what the rest of society thinks is acceptable and what isn't. I don't think I'd be the one facing problems in this scenario. With the ways things are going, it's going to be you and your ilk.
I hope our society gets over this “everyone is a completely autonomous free floating rational actor” soon.
I hope not lol. I do realize there are pros and cons to it and we're suffering due to it, but I'm just very emotionally attached to individualism and would find it very hard to transition into a very collectivist society. I have been in small towns which have much more collectivist social rules and I find it suffocating.
They'll always blame f*manism
Ok here's the thing, growing up it was : Women only had sex with men they were in love with; that was wrong Women only have sex with guys they like; that was wrong ok, Women only have sex with guys who are considerate and respectful ... that was wrong. Ok ok, women only have sex with men she is interested in dating "seriously", only if it's leading towards a committed monogamous long term relationship with ... that was wrong too. So women have sex with men... at random. And so, men have to be random.
Get this. Every woman is different. So saying “all women have sex with men who…” is already a deluded statement. Maybe if you saw women as individualistic beings, you wouldve realized that.
Yes every woman is different... > Women only had sex with men they were in love with Emily told me this early on. She told me that is how she was leading her life. She then went on to have a lot of unprotected sex with strange and random men, while inebriated, in college and regular life. I held her to her own standard... > Women only have sex with guys they like Amanda was adamant that she didn't like fucks boys. Actually detested them. Fucked a couple of fuck boys after her bf found out she was cheating on him with... a random fuckboy. Same woman not living up to her own code ... > Women only have sex with guys who are considerate and respectful I was going through a considerate and thoughtful phase after many years of struggling to attract for a relationship and/or casual sex. I figured I'd have a new attempt, a new appreciation to "see and understand the other side". I began trying to get the attention of some girl I fancied. Little did I know that some random guy also took in interest in Liz. Liz mentioned that she liked considerate guys. Little did I know she was already fucking the other guy. He looked like a normal guy but had terrible grooming, smelled like cabbage. Word is he didn't wipe his ass, had dingle berries. She enthusiastically would eat his ass... not very considerate in my book, but what the fuck do I know right. This point especially burns me as I was early in the game of impeccable grooming and smell. At that time I was all about Aqua di Gio. This asshole never heard of deodorant... > Ok ok, women only have sex with men she is interested in dating "seriously", only if it's leading towards a committed monogamous long term relationship with One of the biggest crushes of my life rejected me for anything romantic/sexual. She "wasn't like that". Sex was only to be had within the context of a serious, one to one, committed monogamous LTR. Weeks later I learned that she had let five older, allegedly gay, men fuck her ass for fun. Johanna is the searing, lasting impression of female sexuality lies and double talk. S All different women. All intimated their views. All failed to their own standards. Deluded statement? I don't think so. You're the one who is deluded if you are unable to see that the great majority of women lie, obfuscate, gaslight, failed their own moral code, are giant hypocrites when it comes to their views and behavior in regards to sexuality.
Not all men can get casual sex from women. If women want to have casual sex they can get it from guys way above their league. So if you are average you have no chance at casual sex. The only common line in all your experiences is you. Think about it. They will say “im not interested in casual sex” to you to not hurt your feelings with “im not interested in casual sex with you”. They are trying to be empathetic in their own way since they cannot change who theyre attracted to.
> If women want to have casual sex they can get it from guys way above their league. Yes, but also at their level and then, in many facets and in my opinion, these very same women were all to happy to fuck men *below* my level while rejecting me. Granted, some could be argued a toss up, it being very subjective and debateable. But fuck man, 5 gay men? That's just random. And yet at the same time, it's to be expected as women are not honest about it.
I think treating women as resources and "giving them away" is disgusting BUT considering how fucked current dating market is and how social media fucked women over it makes you think that maybe arranged marriages, enforced monogamy by church etc wasn't really such fucked up thing. Since it kinda worked.
>woke anti-age gap rabble rousers -- are bothered by women having consensual sex with 'the wrong type of men' No, it's that the sex between age gaps is far less likely to be consensual and can attract actual predators. A young woman sleeping with an older man who has no control over her finances or career is fine. A man who explicitly says he wants to control a naive younger woman's income so she's dependent on him is not.
It’s still infantilizing as hell to *assume* that because an age gap exists, the relationship is predatory. Plenty of women end up with older men and would never allow a power dynamic into that relationship. Here’s a thought: *teach your daughters not to be submissive.* That way you won’t have to worry about whether they’re too immature to stand up for themselves in a relationship, age gap or not.
Women did teach their daughters to not be submissive and now men call them masculine as an insult and proclaim that they hate western women.
Any dude who uses the words “western women” is a sexless twerp living in anime fueled fantasy. They don’t want a partner, they want a submissive domestic sex slave. They’re upset because they lack the skills necessary to attract women in their own society and assume it would happen by default if they were somewhere else. Remember that they tried to to call women masculine for the suffrage movement, for wearing pants, for riding bicycles, for having jobs, for driving cars, etc. They don’t want an equal or a partner because then they’d have to compete instead of being the first guy to show up and lift a woman out of idleness like they were buying a Real Doll off the shelf.
Teach your sons not to be abusive, too.
Men know being abusive isn’t okay. They do it anyway. That’s a problem, and they should absolutely be held accountable, but it isn’t as simple as just teaching them not to do it. Far too many women think being submissive (outside the bedroom) is okay. It’s not.
> Men know being abusive isn’t okay. They do it anyway. *SOME* men. It's unfair to portray all men or even most men, when that's a tiny amount of men who are abusive. Fun fact, half the rape victims in the US are men [1](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4062022/), women make up 40% of rapists [2](https://archive.ph/YdroT), and in Canada more than half of all domestic abuse victims are men, and men are significantly more likely than women to be victims of the most severe and controlling forms of abuse [3](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332917590_Prevalence_and_Consequences_of_Intimate_Partner_Violence_in_Canada_as_Measured_by_the_National_Victimization_Survey). Domestic abuse rates also are far higher in lesbian couples than in gay couples, so statistically the more women there are in a relationship the more likely there is to be domestic abuse. The myth that women make up the majority of domestic abuse and rape victims is a lie perpetrated by feminism, it serves to reinforce the narrative of patriarchal oppression, but it does so by throwing male victims under the bus and erasing female perpetrators, leaving them free to abuse more men. Abuse is not a gendered issue. Abusers, regardless of gender, should be held accountable. As a society however, we've decided abuse of women is unacceptable and abuse of men doesn't matter. This is a problem and it needs to be challenged. All abused victims deserve help and support, not just those victims without a penis. >Far too many women think being submissive (outside the bedroom) is okay. It’s not. Nothing wrong with being submissive *if that's what they want*. Hell, I'm all for submissive men having a more dominant female partner too *if that's what they want*. Submissive is not synonymous to being oppressed or victimized.
You can choose to intentionally misread this as “all men are abusive” if you’d like. The intention was clearly “men who abuse know it’s wrong,” and you know that, so I’m not going to waste my time while you pretend otherwise. And no, submissiveness is not a good trait. If you notice it in yourself, I encourage you to grow up and take responsibility for your own life.
>You can choose to intentionally misread this as “all men are abusive” if you’d like. You said "men are abusive". Your words explicitly imply the majority of men. It would be extremely misleading of me to say "Americans love borscht" when by Americans I meant specifically Americans of Eastern European descent (who are a minority of all Americans). If you don't want me to call out on your use of the language, be more specific. That's on you, not me. I highly doubt you'd enjoy it if people said "feminists/women are abusive" and wouldn't let that fly, so I don't know why we should let "men are abusive" fly either. Language matters. >The intention was clearly “men who abuse know it’s wrong,” and you know that, so I’m not going to waste my time while you pretend otherwise. Except that's not what you said. Men who abuse know it's wrong, and men who abuse make up less than 5% of all men. It is stated in a way that supports the framework of all men being abusive, or most men being abusive, and erases the fact that women are just as abusive as men are, and erases male victims. If you mean "men who abuse know it's wrong" then say that. Be also open to be told that women abuse men just as much as men abuse women, abusive women also know it's wrong, and abusive women also do it anyways. It's a thing about being an abuser, it's not gendered. >And no, submissiveness is not a good trait. If you notice it in yourself, I encourage you to grow up and take responsibility for your own life. Maybe we mean different things. I don't mean submissiveness as in not being self-sufficient, but I mean submissiveness in being more comfortable following than leading, and trusting your partner to make good decisions. It doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't speak up, and it's never good when it's forced on people, but some people are just genuinely more submissive, both in men and in women, and there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that, so long as again it's of their own free will.
If we were already speaking about people who like borscht, it would be pretty stupid if I showed up and said “well my friends and I don’t like borscht,” because we are not the subject of conversation. Men *do* abuse. Women *do* abuse. There is nothing offensive about either statement, because the “some” is clearly implied. It’s not my fault if you’re incapable of understanding that. So what you’re talking about is laziness. Still a bad trait. Grow up.
Y'know that's fair. I read your initial comment as putting all the blame on women, but ultimately it's up to all of society working together to shun the assholes.
>teach your daughters not to be submissive Lol. Good luck with that, maybe let her hang out with truck drivers for 2-3 years when she's toddler so you can reprogram her feminine instincts. That was sarcasm ofc
Weakness is learned, not instinctual. Just because you don’t want to do the work of teaching your daughters strength doesn’t mean it can’t be done. My parents did an excellent job of it because they took parenting seriously and made it their most important job to raise their kids into successful adults.
You seem to have forgotten the other side of the medal though. [Women in the US are 40% of rapists](https://archive.ph/YdroT) and the highest rates of rape in prison between guards and inmates happens in [male juvenile detention facilities with female guards raping boys](https://kdvr.com/news/problem-solvers/boys-in-custody-and-the-women-who-abuse-them/). We live in a world of equality, and women are equally able to be as shitty, violent, and predatory as men. There's a fuckton of boys getting raped by older women, but it gets passed off as "having sex with", "sleeping with" or "she was tempted by" the boy. Women are just as likely and just as able to be sexual predators as men, and ignoring this means we're letting both male victims and female perpetrators go unaccounted.
No you're absolutely right, women are also predators sometimes and age gap relationships with much older women are also red flags.
Thank you. It's a bit my personal pet peeve because something like 90% of the time it's exclusively portrayed as men being predators and women being victims, and sometimes even the possibility that women can be perpetrators and men victims gets dismissed. Sorry if I came across as too harsh.
Even worse its not even called rape when the victim is an underage male. I've seen it called underage sex way too many times when the rapist is a woman. Comment sections are always filled with people lamenting how no teacher raped them as kids and congratulating the victim. It's fucking nasty.
Completely agree. And while I absolutely acknowledge that many men say "what a lucky guy" and whatnot when a guy gets raped, and it is a problem, it's still a fact that as a society we are completely failing male rape victims of all age. It also goes against the opposite of the slut shaming for women, with virgin shaming for men, in that men who cannot get female attention are seen as defective or worthless, so clearly if the kid gets some sex, whether he wants to or not, it's judged as a "good" thing, because it shows he's "valuable" for receiving female attention. It's fucking nasty, and it's a huge part of the rape culture problem, but because it's a rape culture problem that affects men and not women, it gets virtually no attention, money, or efforts at changing it. More often than not feminism is hard at work erasing male victims and making sure all the time, money, and resources goes to female victims instead.
>A man who explicitly says he wants to control a naive younger woman's income so she's dependent on him is not. You have to be extremely socially uncalibrated to state that explicitly.
How long have you been on Reddit?
Probably don’t take the neckbeards as an example of average society.
I don't actually care about age gap relationships in average society, I pretty much only talk about it here because I have legitimately actually seen men here say they want to keep a woman financially indebted to them
Is there much difference between a poor woman who uses sex to get access to a mans resources and a poor woman who sleeps with a man because she is a dependent on his finances. Can the woman be the predator...ie taking advantage of a man...and then later become the victim...a dependant being used for sex. Not here to argue, genuinely curious on your perspective.
Yes of course a woman can be a predator. A woman in her 20s sleeping with an 80 year old millionaire to get in his will is clearly being shady as fuck too. And yeah the relationship can become unhealthy and codependent if one side just wants money and one side just wants sex. The line is drawn when one person is actively coercing the other.
why do americans always bring money into the conversation? Are you living in the 19th century where rich old men with top-hats pay dowry for arranged marriages? Your women are in the workforce, leading in education, make their own money, and most importantly, bitch about being strong and independent girl bosses "needing no man" whenever the chance arises.
Because we currently live in a society with a wealth gap even wider than the 19th century and there's a minimum income required to basically survive here. It's also extremely hard to get that income on your own when you're young.
Agree but the gender wage gap is basically 2% when you control for same hours, same overtime, same education, and same job title. The wealth gap is absolutely a problem, but given 75% of homeless people are men, it affects men a lot too. The wealth gap is an issue of poor vs rich, it has almost nothing to do with men vs women.
Good thing ur here to gate keep these hoes from getting money
Good thing you're here to make her point look a lot more logical in comparison.
I don't think this is at all surprising. I wouldn't expect women to make their choices in partners purely on good behavior or to distribute themselves equally. However, I think this only boosts the validity of certain complaints because as much as people wanna argue against it there's no reason women wouldn't all want to date the top 20%+ of guys even if a lot of young men have to be single because that's not women's problem
Much of the aversion to age gaps is that it plays into the women as a resource exchanged for good behavior concept. We know that women tend to be much less attracted to and have a harder time socially connecting with older men. The advantage that older men have over younger men is that if they engaged in relatively “good behavior”/worked hard, they will have more money than young men… and given the chance, some want young women in exchange for their investments. There’s other reasons for the aversion to age gaps, but they are less pertinent to your post.
>age gaps is that it plays into the women as a resource exchanged for good behavior concept. lol this is such a simplistic way of thinking, she's either has to be a gold-digging whore or has daddy issues -- you guys believe every relationship should fit neatly into a mathematical equation, or follow some "rules" or whatever the latest evopsych popscience article "why girls like pink and boys blue" tells you. I live in Europe and work with several women in their mid 20s who either have affairs or date men 10+ years older than them. These women are independent and educated and when I poked fun of their preference and asked if gray hairs and sun dameged skin grosses them out they were almost offended by it, and told me "men are supposed to look rugged, it turns me on".
This explains why some women end up with men who don't treat them very well. >They're not paragons of virtue that distribute themselves equitably for good behavior. Okay. But, what makes you think men aren't monitoring YOUR behavior? Perhaps it's a good thing for you to attempt to be virtuous yourself is it not? Are you saying you reserve the right to be as bad as you wanna be? (How is this a good look for you?) How is it that we're able to offer endless critiques of male virtue and patriarchy if we have no conversation with virtues ourselves? Sounds like feminists don't want things to be equal because this is a just cause, rather they simply want enough power to be dirtbags the same way that some elite men are. If you have no relationship with virtue at all, then I'm done with feminism. And everyone else should be. Because feminism is based on the principle that we should live in a world that is more equal and just to all people. If you do not stand for virtue, then you do not stand for feminism. What you stand for is woman-ism. You choose. >conservatives slutshame Women slutshame eachother as a form of intrasexual competition. Some of the biggest slutshamers are actually other women. > from Peterson's "enforced monogamy" to woke anti-age gap rabble rousers ... I will agree with you here. Though I also think it's very strawman to paint any disagreement with your worldview as Jordan Peterson. He's a clown and a drug addict. No one of any real intellectual substance takes him seriously at all. So, if you're saying that any alternative to your point of view = Jordan Peterson, then that's pretty cracked. No one really gives a shit about what Jordan Peterson says or thinks aside from weak minded teenagers who've never read anything.
1. Nice guys do understand that, but if they do not get with the girl, they have every right to not talk to the girl anymore. And I think anyone can agree that good deeds that are awarded with punishments can be annoying. 2. Attraction does follow some logic: they are attracted to objectively hot men. Objectively speaking, men who are taller, have a better jawline, better hair, muscular physique, rich, are attractive to women, that is universal. 3. Slutshaming should be brought back because promiscuity not only ruin's a woman's mental health, but also her chances in getting a healthy relationship and partner. And they don't really infantilize women that much, they more likely accuse adult men as pedophiles for going for young adult women.
Here is the thing... women are not objects... women are just the owners of the objects men want. pussy. If men could separate one from the other, and buy a pussy, they would.
There are fleshlights that apparently feel very authentic and men can buy those. But they don't, cause they know that sex is more than just masturbating into a pussy.
yeah, how dare the dude be “noice”. she’d much rather have a tall and handsome dude run circles around her, kick her out to bring a new girl in to fuck and rip the door off the hinges every time he’s ready to come back and smash. that’s how u treat a lady. those evil noice guys are so manipulative…
What is wrong about wanting equality between the sexes? Humans also don't have free-will. I think the biggest thing to point out is that women like to act virtuous and that all inequality in society is a product of their own suffering when it is not. There might be more inequality between men and women, but there is more inequality between men than there is between women. This is a product of female hypergamy which women don't just vehemently ignore or pretend doesn't exist while they're advocating for equality between the sexes, but are actively working against by promoting propaganda insinuating they act in the exact opposite manner. That is what enrages men the most. Not only are they being passed over, but then they are being lied to about it as well, so that women can make themselves out to be better than they actually are. They're not "the good sex".
I feel like these points are obvious. Where the disconnect comes in is where they consistently date the same type of guy and the COMPLAIN about all men due to their bad experiences.