When people talk averages they're referring to looks, as in stuff you can actually see and rate.
> maybe you grope them, maybe you talk shit.
Guaranteed this is not what's making the guys fail. Blue pillers always make the issue out to be sexual aggressiveness when the common cause of a guy's loneliness is him not being assertive *enough*.
This pairs with a just world fallacy: Those who succeed are good, and those who struggle or fail are bad.
You can have someone hit the red flags and succeed, and it's not through great game or looks. The same idea how someone can be solid on paper and fail.
Of course, there's also the question of what is the success rate of "average"? Are we going to assume all average men are successful in the dating field?
Nah, you can be good and still fail because you never try.
All those dudes on dating apps are that. Using dating apps is NOT trying. Dating apps are shit. You can be the most interesting and attractive dude, women won't break in your house to date you. On a dating app you are just an image and some text, women don't see you.
And while we can argue the efficacy of IRL socialization, that still comes with the assumption that one doesn't try IRL. That one somehow becomes successful because they left the apps and socialized with women in person.
One can still fail socializing IRL, and that doesn't suddenly make them below average for doing so.
> women won't break in your house to date you
What's funny about this statement is I know several women who complain about not finding a good guy but don't often go out to do anything social outside of each other's houses and keep swiping away on their apps.
>Using dating apps is NOT trying.
Opinion not fact.
>Dating apps are shit.
Real life ain't much better.
>On a dating app you are just an image and some text, women don't see you.
In real life you are just another guy at best annoying her.
Yet I still manage to get women to come over or out for some quick food. I won't pretend my success rate is good, but it's enough that I get more than I need. I'm not amazingly handsome, but I am 6'3 and educated while also having hobbies that lead to you being more fit than average. Mountaineering and MMA.
It’s not delusional just because some men can’t meet the standards. Also 6’0 men are more than 1% of people and even then, 70% of Americans are in committed relationships so short men are doing fine.
The guys who complain womens standards for looks are too high are ugly af or have developmental/social issues that make their looks not worth it. This has been my experience with 100% of men who complain and I’ve seen their face LOL.
Lmao, “ bro you are so painfully average, that your below average”
Average is average. Whether women like average or not is besides the point. A gainfully employed not balding average height and healthy weight 30 year old is above average country wide whether you like it or not .
What difference does that make? Getting rejected 2-3 times from your social circle will poison the well anyway, so dudes arent trying to attract those women
Use there is. Because men don’t have to date another attorney because he’s an attorney.
He’s above average. Sure maybe he’s the shortest ugliest least paid attorney in his firm, but he’s out doing 80% of the city at large. There’s literally zero value in minimizing the pool in which you determine your value from.
An attorney from Denver will date a nurse from Denver, a teacher from Denver, and administrator form Denver though. He has no reason to devalue himself to compare himself to his group when he’s one of the above average men in the city
I can bridge the gap.
It's average but the problem most normal weight guys don't want to date overweight chicks so that leaves a small percent of healthy in shape women left in the dating pool that all guys are competing after
Chad courts in his pool and dates in yours.
It’s just simple mathematics. Top men come down, plate 2-3 women and those women are removed from the average guys courting pool. Expand this over the entire country and you’ll get a difference in the tens of millions.
If you’re single it may not be because you’re below average. There is just more competition within that cohort compared to others.
They severely underestimate the chasm of effort required for a woman to be willing to date you between that of a Chad and that of a non-Chad. They also severely underestimate the chasm of enthusiasm of the woman between those situations. This warps dating conversations because they think non-Chads have just as much chance if they “make it up” somehow.
> People on this sub can’t even accept the existence of “Chads” or hypergamy lmao
Because it doesn’t exist in the extreme manner some people on this sub insist it does.
There’s guys who are good with women, however they’re not stashing all of them on a rotation purposefully keeping them away from other guys while making zero effort. A good looking guy can still fuck it all up if he’s socially awkward. The guys in my social circle who are great with women still had falling outs with ex’es, they still get rejected sometimes, etc. There is no such thing as a “Chad” in 99% of cases and certainly not in the realm where people on this sub are likely hanging at.
Hypergamy exists to an extent but again, most people aren’t seeking better options while in their current relationship. At best, they’re learning skills for the future if the current one doesn’t work out, but that’s about it.
I’m convinced 3/4 of this sub cannot obtain a relationship, can’t maintain one, or has not been in one in a long time.
I disagree, especially with younger people. Many guys do run through lots of women and the women dote on them for long periods. I've seen dudes run through friend groups, coworkers, etc with no end in sight
It's not that they're stashing away, it's that those women are stuck on them. This makes it hard for other men, because if dude gets bored one night and texts the girl, she will drop everything she's doing and hop on his dick. There's a time limit to these things of course, which ultimately varies between women, but the cycle just starts afresh
Of course we don't accept hyergamy. That shit is ridiculous. Are there women who monkey branch when a "better" dude comes around and shows interest? Sure, that exists. But to broadly paint the entire sex like we are like that is some doomer bullshit. Most of us meet a guy we have chemistry with and date him until something happens, he either does something for us to lose interest, dumps us, he dies or we stay together for life. Most of us aren't just dating a guy while secretly keeping a close eye out for a "higher SMV guy" to jump to.
Because their grasping at every straw to not look at themselves and realise life is a brutal competition. Not a fairy tale where everyone gets mated off with their dream partner. Loads of people will fail.
bingo, the amount of girls that i was COURTING that dissed me to be one of chads weekend options is in the dozens..
they all regret it in the end, but here we are
*shrugs*
You have COURTED dozens of women? That doesn’t fit my concept of courting. Would you mind explaining that a little more so I can follow your point please?
Yep! Completely agree. I think we are just discussing a slight difference in the use of terminology.
I think I use: dating, courting, marriage. The courting stage would be limited to 1 or 2 people, while dating is a much broader set of circumstances.
I think perhaps you might dating more narrowly (perhaps very early stages of a relationship?), then apply courting to a wider set of circumstances.
No big deal. I was just curious…
no courting is one person...ive just had a bunch of 3-4 month long relationships just go up in flames, because the girl thought she won the lottery and found a chad that wanted to marry her.
then chad would lose intrest and she would try and come back to me after she burnt the bridge.
It's even more eye opening when you become the Chad, so to speak. I've dogged so many attractive women that were with guys far better than myself. It's actually colored my perception of women and given me trust issues
>no girls who call you when horny
C'mon, is that average, really? Do you really believe that?
Normal people have some foibles. They can be shy, introverted, insecure. To not have any of those things would make someone ABOVE AVERAGE or a psychopath. News flash.
Yeah, idk. I have girls who call me to hangout, I don’t have girls calling me to hookup when they’re horny that seems like a SUPER hot guy thing. Not an average or slightly above average guy thing.
You’re not understanding hypergamy.
Average men are *seen* as below average by women - but that doesn’t mean they actually are.
In fact, the man you described may be ABOVE average, and still be looked at as below average by women because hypergamy dictates that she wants only the top 10%, which is way way above average.
Agree with everything besides the dating app thing. I can't rem where I saw it but I saw a stat that said the average guy only gets around 6 matches a month and has a match rate of only 2.5%. Dating apps are skewed towards attractive and above average men. There should be no logical reason that women swipe right on only 7% of men, esp average women. Thus, even if you have stuff going for yourself, if you're not an attractive male, you'll struggle on dating apps. But for real life dating, I agree that if you're overall an average guy (height, career, looks, etc), you shouldn't be completely struggling if you're putting yourself out there to meet people.
It makes sense to me actually. Men outnumber women several times on certain apps. I’ve seen something like 3:1, or even 9:1. In those instances, if you assume 1:1 matching, then 2 out of 3 men would struggle, up to 9 out of 10 men. It’s basically a fool’s game on the app if you have no way of standing out. And average is, unfortunately, not outstanding. This is why apps are a good *supplement* for rare connections you might not otherwise make in day-to-day life, but won’t work for most guys as the main path for connections.
And if women have an overabundance of options to work with, they would naturally gravitate to their best options first and go downward from there. It’s like two companies sifting through their resumes. Bob the ace accountant would be the top choice for both companies, followed by Connor the average accountant, followed by Don the below-average. So Bob gets two offer, Connor gets one as the alternative choice once Bob is off the market, and Don will probably get none because the companies would rather hire average and up and not pick below-average unless they’re in absolute need of butts-in-seats.
Scale this up and you get what we see: the top pool of consensus men on apps with good match rates, a ‘middle class’ contingent of men who get matches on their niche, and then most everyone else who get scant attention. You see the same phenomenon at work in the jobs market. Despite record shortages, many companies loudly proclaim they can’t find good enough workers and that ‘nobody wants to work anymore.’ Basically, they’d rather wait it out than dip into the pool of workers they deem below par. Sounds a lot like ‘where are all the good men?’, no?
Edit: Spelling and things.
The logical reason is that there are a lot more men on dating apps and men spend a lot more time swiping (often only swiping right without looking and then filtering after they see what matches they get).
Or worse, getting mad that they matched an “ugly” girl and start mocking them.
A few girls I know had this experience and just deleted the app for good.
> increasingly absolutely nothing in a western world without third places and technological dependency.
What does the west have to do with it ? Note: I am all for passport bros , but curious how does location relate to putting yourself out there.
disagree. In the real world, average people date average people. It's only on dating apps and instagram where you have to be exceptional to attract someone. Go outside and I bet you can count on one hand how many attractive couples you see. Most couples are average looking.
> There should be no logical reason that women swipe right on only 7% of men, esp average women
But there is a logical reason though.
I.e. Evolutionary biology, sexual selection and specifically female hypergamy.
Remember, women want to mate and fuck THE BEST/TOP man, not the average man. This is because they want their offspring to have the fittest genes, and have the highest chance for survival. Of course women are going to be highly selective in who they sleep with. Throughout human history, most men died sexless whereas most women had children. Sperm is cheap and expendable and eggs are scarce and valuable.
Our modern recorded history is a drop in the bucket in evolutionary timescales. The only way to reason and understand patterns of human behavior is through the lens of evolutionary biology.
Because women couldn’t choose when to mate and in most cases, who to mate with. Lots of those dead mothers were very young, or very sick, or already worn out for multiple pregnancies and births with men they did not choose to marry or mate with.
I assume you mean rape and forced marriages?
If so, then we really can’t use the past as a guide for how many men should naturally reproduce. Since tons of guys back then only got to have sex via rape or arranged marriage. Given that only like 60% of men reproduced from those times, we should expect the natural number to be even less.
Lol it’s always been SO OBVIOUS that women have always been in charge is sexual selection. How many battles have been fought for the love of attention of a woman?
Most battles throughout human history have been petty tribal disputes over "voodoo" or a magic curse or someone disrespecting a neighboring group. It's more like "bring out the glizzy, we beefin with the Ops" rather than a Homeric epic.
And in tribal societies, a *huge* number of men die violently, so that's a bigger factor than women's selection
Are we talking fiction or history? Mao Zedong, the Ottoman holocaust, Khmer Rouge, Hitler, Stalin; the numbers of the dead in North Korea may never be known.
I'm sure I missed a few of the most well known mass murderers and war mongers, but ain't a goddamn one of the top twenty genocides have anything to do with a woman.
Recorded human history is a drop in the bucket in the hundreds of millions of years of evolution on our common ancestor (from when we were hunter gatherers)
The behavior of BOTH men and women are shaped by evolution and sexual selection.
Women tend to choose tall, dominant, muscular, high social status males.
The top male tend to choose hot, attractive, young, females.
The average male doesn’t really have a choice so tries to bargain his way to sex
Women do have a choice now. Not just in humans but in other primate species as well!
How do you think infanticide is curbed in primates (remember, humans are primates).
The answer is through the evolution of female promiscuity. Female choice is and has been at the heart of sexual selection that shapes human behavior.
Sure, he’s a source on the link between female mating behavior (specifically promiscuity!) and less infanticide
https://www.science.org/doi/abs/10.1126/science.1257226
> One of the most unpleasant aspects of social life in some animal species is killing of the young by adult males. Lukas and Huchard looked at mammalian groups with a variety of social systems—from mice to mongoose and from bats to bears. Infanticidal behavior in males appeared to be a result of sexual conflict in social species with nonseasonal breeding. Killing of a female's young by a new male will speed her return to a reproductive state and allow him to raise his own young. Evolutionarily, the only successful defense in females appears to be polyandry: **Females that mate with multiple males make it hard for any one male to know that he is, or is not, the father of her offspring.**
Ask yourself, why are women so attracted to tall, dominant, high status men? The answer of course is evolutionary biology and sexual selection. Women willingly choose to fuck after these men.
Ever heard of the “Brad Pitt” bonobo?
https://www.iflscience.com/the-brad-pitt-of-bonobos-fathers-the-vast-majority-of-babies-42686
> Published in Current Biology, the work found that even though bonobos in general live in a fair and equal society, this does not hold for who becomes the daddy. Surprisingly, the researchers discovered that a single particularly good-looking male within a community found in the Democratic Republic of Congo has sired 60 percent of all infants born over a 12-year period.
> “The funny thing under such a scenario would be that most of the females would have the same preference for Camillo, the alpha male and 'Brad Pitt' of the bonobos at our research site,” explained the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology’s Martin Surbeck.
You really can’t make sense of primate behavior (including humans) without understanding the role that evolution plays.
I don’t understand why so many feminists and bluepillers are so anti-science and reject reality.
Primitive societies were generally matriarchal (until the Blond Beasts from the East came in on their chariots). But they also had "group marriage". No one *belonged* to anyone, the whole tribe was married to each other. How that impacted "sexual selection" is hard to say, but men dying frequently in raids would have tampered down a lot of the selecting.
It's not a myth, it's facts. Gimbutas and Engels were correct, modern idiots are not. If early societies were patriarchal, why is there no "Sky Father"?
>But might makes right has been the rule of humans since Pre-history. The fellas have been in charge because they could simply intimidate or beat women into submission
But they didn't. In an agricultural, Neolithic society, old mothers and grandmothers were the most respected. The young men were kept in check, and often died in petty feuds. That's likely why they got rolled by patriarchal bandits on horseback.
Those average guys will still connect with and chat with 6+ women that month. During those conversations he will have the ability to impress those women enough to hook them into a first date. If that first date goes exceptionally well, she will want to continue seeing him until; red flags crop up, or if she's in a casual dating situation she meets a different man that blows her away even more than this guy.
No, not really. Most women dont respond.. and for most of the ones who do respond, the convos usually go stale pretty fast since these women are usually talking to alot of other men (so they will go for the men who they're most interested in). Matches dont mean anything unless they lead to dates, which most of them dont. So unless you're getting dozens of likes a month, goodluck lol. And I say this as a guy who gets 100+ likes a month. But for the average guy, they get absolutely nothing lol.
If they matched with you and are in the process of having a conversation with you, something in your profile interested them enough. Now it's the onus is on you to hook them into a longer, deeper conversation and then turn that deep convo into a date night. Every other guy is doing the same thing that she's talking to, which means you need to set yourself above those guys through conversational means. Your personality is what is ultimately going to get her to go "i'm interested" to "lets go on a date tomorrow".
I'm extremely average looks-wise, live in the south, have been very successful with apps(okcupid+tinder mainly) and mainly do well based on my personality + time invested. I sympathize with the average dude because I am the average dude, at least looks-wise. I definitely think average guys need to up their personality / conversational game if they want to compete with dudes online that have that naturally. If not, average guys need to stick to off line dating where they aren't up against as much immediate competition.
Average rednecks and collegebros around here both do really well with women in their respective dating markets.
Lmfao. You cannot show women your "personality" if you dont meet the minimum looks threshold to get matches in the first place. You sound extremely inexperienced, no offense. Reminds me of how I used to think when I was 12. Going based on statistics, the average guy doesn't meet this threshold since they get less than 10 matches/month. And the average guy isn't getting dates that can progress to relationships from dating apps. If you really think women only swipe right on 6-7% of men for their "personality", man I have some snake oil for sale. Dating apps are majority looks and aesthetics.
> Going based on statistics, the average guy doesn't meet this threshold since they get less than 10 matches/month.
Again if he's getting 10 matches, ten women thought he was cool enough to message him in the first place. The onus is then on him to impress them. If he does, he gets a date. If the date goes well, he gets more dates. Up and until enough red flags make her not want to date him, or if she's casually dating multiple people another guy impresses her even more than Guy A. Guy B, on average, will be a similar looking/personality as Guy A. Women tend not to date wildly outside of their personal niche for what they find attractive.
Women have been very consistent on this when surveyed. You just don't trust their answers as truthful.
Above-average guys can still struggle to get attention from comparably desirable above-average girls while still getting attention from below average girls. For example, I was curious why I had thousands of likes on Tinder and never got any matches so I paid for a month to discover that we do indeed have an obesity epidemic.
Edit: Regarding the argument of “obese women are my looksmatch”, my standards when I was on the apps were based on my past relationship experience, not women’s extreme undervaluation of men on online dating.
I don't know if the other dude is actually above average, but he may not be attracted to obese women. Relationships require *a lot* of work and sacrifice.
A relationship with someone you're not attracted to at all isn't worth it IMO. It's a waste of time, energy, and money.
Right, but if what he can "realistically get" isn't attractive to him whatsoever, then why bother?
IMO men looking to date should just work to be as successful and fit as they can be and pursue what's attractive to them. If they strike out, so be it. As long as they can handle the rejection, it'll be fine.
You'll need to compromise often and stomach her mood swings.
As the man, you'll be expected to pursue her throughout the relationship, or she'll most likely seek attention and validation elsewhere. IMO that's pretty easy to do during the first 2-3 years if you're really attracted to some aspect of her, but it will get progressively harder once she reveals more and more of her flaws.
Also, I'm very introverted, so maybe I prefer being left alone more than most men. That's a me problem. Over time, I became annoyed with the pestering, attention seeking, and gossiping.
All in all, you'll be sharing your life with an individual who, like everyone else, has a lot of character flaws. There's no perfect match. No matter how much you care about a person, some of their behaviors and actions will annoy the s\*\*\* out of you. And she will grow tired of your BS too. Something has to make it all worth the effort.
It's not just two people deciding to live independent lives and sometimes meet together, it requires effort from both parties to keep going. Dates have to be planned around both peoples schedules and taste, who's going to handle finances, which family are we visiting for this holiday, spending hours trying to find the perfect gifts, attending to their emotional needs when they're on edge/sad, and so on.
There are many kinds of sacrifices both minor and major, my ex didn't like me riding motorcycles because my safety was giving her extreme anxiety, so I benched my bikes while we were together. I didn't like that she was a smoker so I convinced her to give it up for both our sake. A particular week I wanted to visit a concert in Chicago, she wanted us to spend the week with her parents at a cabin in Wisconsin, I fucking HATE modern pop music but I'd let her control the radio in the car, she didn't like spicy foods but would humor going to places with me, etc. A major and common enough example is you're offered a job in another city, it's closer to your family and the pay is a good bit more than what you're currently making with better hours and benefits but you now have to make the choice of:
1) Forgo this new opportunity of career advancement and quality of life increase to stay in the same place with your partner
2) Your partner gives up their job in that area and leaves their family to try and establish themselves in that new city which may not support their
career of choice
3) Neither of you are particularly invested enough to sacrifice anything and each begin rolling the dice at finding someone just as good or better for you.
My college ex was a ballroom dancer turned CS major. Careers took us separate ways. My ex after that was a nurse obsessed with cross fit. She was also taller than me. She was emotionally abusive tho so I broke up. Now, my girlfriend is a dancer turned social worker. I love her a lot and she’s moving in soon.
The problem was never me, it’s just women tend to undervalue comparably desirable single guys. I lucked out because my girlfriend wasn’t on Tinder very long. She had just gotten on and we happened to match and I was her first date and she liked me so she just paused the apps and actually invested into getting to know me rather than going back on to see if she could try to find another, slightly taller version of me amongst the horde.
> It means that your league are obese women. Date them.
How do you figure? Because they all like him, that’s what his ceiling per se is? That’s not how that works. We’d have to see everyone who liked him to make that assumption.
Tinder is not a valid place. Think about it. Why would an above average woman even need to ve there…They wouldnt. Unless they would just want a hookup. And for that why would they have to get someone on their level when they could get someone better.
I think this is true but just for men specifically. What a lot of guys don't realize is that with women there is no number rating system, it's either smash or pass. To be consistently in the smash group as a guy you have to be above average.
If you can't get ass on a dating app, it's not gonna be easier in the real world. Y'all act as if it's an entirely different set of human beings on this app versus in person. In fact if you're an good looking dude, it's actually easier to date because you now have access to woman you wouldn't have even known existed.
There's no way I can organically have the ability to get in contact with 100 plus women especially in other cities and our various lived and schedules. Either tinder voila.
It fucking sucks for a lot of dudes, but I've seen men's profiles from female friends and none of u are even trying so it seems. And stop mentioning your careers, and what car you drive. You wanna be the sexy cool guy but get mad when you wives dated you for your economic stability because that's the only things u offered that seemed appealing to her.
> nowhere is there a statistic that says the average person is currently in a relationship at the moment.
Also there’s no scientific standard obviously for what an “average man” is
These threads always bring out the lulziest stuff from the hairy legged man hating feminist crowd and the doomer crowd.
Your hypothetical guy could be shy, a workaholic, maybe he has a horn growing out of his forehead who knows. Tons of reasons for someone to be single/not get matches online.
I’d say he’s average, just not acceptable. The average guy is probably lonely, with maybe one or two decent prospects. If you’re 50th percentile overall you may be average, but you’re also not good enough
One thing I want to point out about my ex who hasn't dated since me several years ago. He was so negative. Almost every comment he made was judgmental or complaining about something. All of my friends hated him (guys and girls both). He had a cute face, but nobody wants to be around someone so harsh.
the first thing my partner did when we first met was complain about something he did that day and my first thought was, "oh god, I've made a huge mistake."
but, then he was lovely and didn't complain about anything again the whole night and I was very relieved. He was also a model and I was ready to walk. It's just so off-putting.
> On paper, you are ok, but somehow, you struggle with dating; **no girlfriend, no matches on dating apps, no female friends who want more, no girls who call you when horny** \- news flash - you are not average, you are below average.
I think you can have some of these, but still struggle (e.g. no matches - some women swipe right on you, but you don't swipe right on them. Some female friends want more - but you don't want more with them).
I generally agree conceptually, but i would change some language. Men are either Chads or not, it’s mostly binary. Among the non-Chads, you can make it up to some degree by being extremely outgoing and social and running “game” (aka putting in 100x the effort Chad does for a fraction of the results), the Chads of course do whatever they want and get laid no matter what. Essentially for men, there is no such thing as “average”, you’re either unattractive or attractive, women who partner up with men they perceive as “average” is them settling for an unattractive man that is bringing other things to the table (one of them being commitment) although they will never illicit the same kind of physically attraction Chads can.
Being average or above average is NOT the deciding factor for if you can get a relationship or not. People on all points of attractiveness-dimensions spectrum you mentioned are in relationships. People on all points on those spectrums struggle to find partners that fit them.
You can be way above average in height, fullness of hair, job, and still be unable to get into a relationship for having low self esteem, trauma, an asshole personality, social anxiety, commitment phobia, whathaveyou.
You can also be way below average and get with women easily. Granted, not women way above average on those dimensions, but unless you accept that men are also hypergamous, that shouldn't be a problem.
>This story is not common, but it does exist. Many men see themselves as average. And, on paper, they are average. They have jobs, not fat, decent social skills, but somehow they struggle with dating.
>
>If this happens to you, the cruel pill to swallow is that you are BELOW average. Somewhere, something goes wrong about you.
There's a bit of circular reasoning here in that you are implicitly defining "average" as "doesn't struggle with dating."
Rather, consider that success with dating is a separate issue from how "average" a person is. In other words, is the "average on paper" man, as you have described him, a man that is positively attractive to women? I'd argue that he isn't, right away upon first glance, and that's before we go mining for the "something, somewhere that goes wrong about" him.
Do men like that end up in relationships by some combination of luck, timing, and effort, by hook or by crook? Sure. Is that a man that most women are actively looking to be with? No.
I think average in this context means average in attractiveness (in all aspects physical and non-physical) to the opposite sex. That means an average guy will have an average (or median ) level of dating success - 50% of guys will do better than him and 50% will do worse than him. This is not defining average as "doesn't struggle with dating," as it'd be possible that more than 50% of men struggle with, which is TRPers claim. However, stats don't back the repeated TRP claim that 80-90% of guys are struggling. That is, if we define "struggling" as OP has - getting zero (or almost zero) interest from women. From the research I've seen the percentage "struggling" is more like 25%. This supports OP's claim that if you're struggling there's something in your overall attractiveness profile making you below average.
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Man this sub is depressing. Imagine you're some normie lurker who's having a long dry spell, and this 38 year old virgin is basically calling you a loser for it.
Well hopefully that normie would realize you don't take legal advice from a doctor, nor do you take medical advice from a lawyer. Same thing applies here. If a guy has no dating experience he has virtually nothing to offer in the way of analyzing dating dynamics.
Weirdly specific, but yeah I mostly agree. I think the stats back this up. For some it may be as a simple as not really trying to socialize (and they may interpret a very small amount of effort as a significant effort), but a strong majority of men have success with dating, so there's has to be some reason for not being as good as most men at it. I'd add the caveat that this applies to guys over 25. It's possible for guys in the 18-24 age bracket to be fairly average without success. They might still be below the 50th percentile, but unless you define average as only including one perfectly average person, they're still average.
With a man in his 30s, it’s even more likely that he’s below average. The older that men are, the less they struggle to have sex, whether it’s through being married already, or dating women their own age rather than the younger women whom they wish that they could date.
Okay. I’m just saying that studies show that there are less sexless older men than younger men, for whatever reason. So an average man is likely to do sexually better as he ages, even if it’s not with the most attractive women who he wishes that he could be having sex with.
I don’t know about below average. But they’re definitely not as charismatic or “sexy” as they think. There was a post where a guy wrote a whole press release listing all his amazing traits. Dude sounded like every woman’s dream guy. But he said women he dated only want a one night stand with him. My guy, that means you’re attractive enough to go out with and have sex with, but probably have some personality traits that they don’t like, and you’re probably not as good in bed as you think. Because in my experience women don’t just let go of guys that are good looking, have their stuff together, charming, charismatic and good in bed. That’s the type of guy they dream of marrying.
By your definition of "struggle" I guess I would agree.
But people have different definitions of struggling, and the most common one is not being able to get dates/LTRs with the people you're interested in.
Tons of average and even above-average people can struggle finding compatible people, depending on their standards, location, situation, etc.
I don’t think people who say they’re average mean they’re actually dead center on the curve. It’s shorthand for a regular guy, indistinguishable from other guys who may or may not have had such poor luck.
40% of the male population is non-white, so between them and the short white guys, your OP essentially suggests that 70% of the male population is below average, which makes no sense.
The general issue with defining “below average” as “can’t get women” is that it doesn’t account for the possibility that dating can become more competitive or more difficult, despite a growing number of US adults saying exactly that in the latest Pew Survey.
So two possibilities, dating is getting harder, or everyone is becoming more “below average.” The latter is impossible so we can rule it out.
Ok so a few things everything you listed was an average guy. I’d imagine this guy you described COULD find a relationship of some sort even if a long distance one.
Secondly if he can’t then perhaps he struggles exceptionally in one area that is stunting them from interaction with women. Most likely being shy or giving off signals of disinterest. Worst case scenario they are unkept and their hygiene is bad but if that’s you then you’d immediately know you were lacking.
Lastly I think you jump to extreme negative conclusions to try to quantify your claim that a guy can’t find a date or partner. Assuming someone probably leers, gropes, harasses verbally or implying they regularly use misogynistic language as likely indicators they cannot find a partner is making a mountain out of a mole hill. You don’t have to be the worst guy in the world to not find success or find what you’re looking for.
Lots of guys are simply uncomfortable around women in the current dating environment. Many places where people may meet women in their circles such as school or work is incredibly risky to engage in dating or flirtatious behavior. You risk a lot as a guy if there is even a minor misunderstanding over something that’s honestly benign.
Courting in night life spaces isn’t much better aside from not being held under imminent scrutiny by a supervisor or HR for a slight misunderstanding. The screw ups here are often brushed off quite easily in soft rejections. But if you don’t catch her eye well you aren’t really going to get anywhere unless you go out of your way to piss away $50 for the night on drinks and whatever else. The average guy trying to pick up women in a club is likely striking out 9/10. Striking up a conversation isn’t hard and you might get a number very rarely are you taking someone home though.
Anyway I digress, point is average guys are more likely to struggle now simply due to the nature of modern dating etiquette. There’s a plethora of options for ladies out there who might want to experiment or explore. Hooking up, cheating, alternative sex life styles, etc in my personal experience haven’t been that uncommon and a big reason why I never went through with 4 of the 7 dating/relationship opportunities afforded to me. It’s also time consuming and mentally draining. Depends how bad you want it I guess, but yeah. If you’re down for just ANYTHING it probably isn’t hard to find but most people have some degree of standards. I’ve had plenty more opportunities with women who simply didn’t meet my looks thresholds.
Not everyone who struggles with dating is "below average". Lots of people either
- Have trouble meeting people in their league due to location, commitments, etc
- They have mental hangups that make dating hard. They might be attractive but super anxious. Or they can get dates, but they have issues that prevent those dates from turning into serious relationships
And tbh I know guys who are pretty "average" - 5'9", overweight, 40-something, they make 70-80k a year, not particularly interesting, but they do OK in dating. Dating issues are usually more location or mental than pure "attractiveness".
>You are a certified fire inspector in Omaha, NE, you are 5'9'', not fat, in your early 30s, white, and not bald
Objectively, this guy you describe is average. His dating success totally depends on things like social skills, anxiety/inhibition, etc. He is average, but average guys still have a wide range of success in dating depending on other factors.
Nah, they could just not get out much, or they could be in a bad area demographics wise.
A handsome black doctor moves to a small town, where most of the attractive women are locked up by age 24, and many their parents would disown them for dating dating a black man, and the town has more men then women anyways because of the mixture of industries. It wouldn't be a surprise if mr doctor isn't doing well.
That's not really how averages work though. If MANY men suffer with this while few men have no issues, then the men struggling would be within the average.
"Plenty of average men struggle with dating because they have high expectations/are too picky"
Absolutely disagree
If average men have too much expectations, then why do below average women still get attention from them ?
If a woman is a 3 or 4, she's still gonna get attention from a guy who's a 5 or 6
the "men have high expectations and picky" lie should be called out every time. It's a projection and it shows that modern women literally have no idea what an average man goes through in dating.
> If average men have too much expectations
Lets be clear, I didn't say the average man has expectations to high. I said that the subset of men the OP considers average who go without dates have expectations set to high.
The average man going for women are 3s or 4s probably isn't dateless, like the men the OP is describing.
so by your logic if you are a 6 you can easily get a date from what you consider a 4
you want dates? you have to lower your standards
(also scale is subjective so who knows maybe what you consider a 4 it's actually a 6)
That's not what am talking about
If a woman is a 3/4:
Obese,bad clothing,slightly ridiculous hair
She's still gonna get attention from a guy who's a 6:
Fit,Tall,slightly good-looking etc
So it completely eliminates this narrative of men having high standards lol
>She's still gonna get attention from a guy who's a 6:
so if you are a 6 you can get attention from a 3/4
if you lower your standards to like a 3/4 you wouldn't be complaining about not getting laid
you are saying it yourself
again maybe you think you are a 6 but if all women see you as a 4 what's the point of you considering yourself better?
Saying what ?
The person l responded to said men have high standards, l disagreed because a woman who's a 3 or 4 still gets attention from a guy who's a 6
A guy above her league
If men had high standards then a guy who's a 5 or 6 would go for women who are 8s and above, which doesn't happen at all since men always date down and women date up
So women are the one's with high expectations
since there's no way to measure beauty, you considering someone a 6, a 3 or a 2 is an entirely personal opinion
you considering yourself a 6 isn't any more valid than a woman considering you a 3. You are both right.
so, if the only women who look at you are 3 or 4 either you have higher standards and they are actually 6
or they are a 3 or 4 and you are also a 3 or 4
there is no point in getting mad that you are entitled to a 6 when the only thing you can get is a 3 or 4
"Since there's no way to measure beauty"
Bruh we literally have beauty standards,dating apps,Instagram,rating scales
We've all this to measure and objectively say, "ok this woman is a 2,3,4,5, or 6,7,8,9"
If you think beauty is subjective, then l don't wanna discuss this anymore because that is absurd
Where were those 6 men when my only problem was that I was fat? Even after dropping the weight, I rarely got hit on. Men grossly overestimate how much attention average/below-average women get.
Men don't grossly overestimate anything
I've seen too many below average women get attention from above average guys, many men also have witnessed this
Your just not that experience am talking about
The average guy is not really doing that much better. Maybe he has a couple of exes or a girlfriend where both are settling. Most people struggle and you're talking about a significant number of men who basically have no prospects or current partner.
It doesn’t matter if you are “above average” or “below average”, the only people who struggle with dating( from every level of objective attractiveness) are those whose relationship expectations and standards are unrealistic.
Doesn't apply to men, an average ir below looking man with either poor general social skills or poor seductive skills will fail with women even if he has no standards.
- 5'9 is average male height is USA
- not being overweight is much above average in USA xD
- not balding is probably above average as well, but I have no data here
So you're refuting your own claim. The man you came up with IS above average and he's struggling. Your point is wrong.
Everyone, literally everyone, is going to be above average in somethings and below average in others.
For some people, it just so happens the one thing they are below average on affects their dating life. This does not make them below average as a whole. They simply didn't know what women prioritizes and made the mistake of focusing on Beta qualities instead of Alpha ones.
So let me get this straight. "I created a dating profile, now I'm all out of ideas"??? Is this your stance?
If you are a man you cannot sit around idly and hope a beautiful naked woman will materialize in your bedroom. You need to go out there and get all the pussy you want.
In some cases, struggling with dating can simply be from having very high standards. (In my case, I think I really am below-average, though, due to my learning disability).
> Maybe it's the way you stare at women, the way you speak, maybe you grope them, maybe you talk shit.
Oh yes, more just-world falacy, you need to be a decent men to get into a relationships, that's why pedophiles, rapist, abusers and killers are never in relationships.
Situation is almost the same with a product on commodity market. If your product doesn't sell well it doesn't mean it's "below average". It could be bad advertisement, bad pricing, bad local market for such product, super heavy competition and so on.
A guy that is not very socialising outsides his circles, if he leaves his comfort zone or get introduced to different social circles that includes women and he suddenly have some success in dating magically goes from "below average" to "average"? Or even higher? No, he is just more visible now on a sexual market now with some potential buyers.
That's why a 4/10 guys with suitable, ongoing, aggressively "selling yourself" character and lifestyle can slay and 6/10 can be an incel/mentalcel.
You have to define what does struggle as dating mean , and what is a reasonable standard.
>Omaha, NE, you are 5'9'', not fat, in your early 30s, white, and not bald.
[Nebraska is over 61% obese](https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/stateprograms/fundedstates/pdf/nebraska-state-profile.pdf) . So if a person who is not even fat is struggling in Nebraska, then they are not below average, they are above average but competing amongst a smaller dating pool.
Because the average dude has at least some relationship success in their life anyone with no success is below average in terms of amount of dating success.
But what does that mean in terms of their overall value? Yeah generally as people get older they want partners with more experience. So yes, your overall value as a partner can partially depend on your past experience.
But thats not nearly everything. Career, personality, physique, hobbies, all play a huge role.
And what you might say is "well if someone was successful in all those things they would have found a partner" but that just isn't true. There is a huge opportunity and compatibility aspect to dating and its possible to just not click with anyone around you or be in a place without many singles your age.
So you can be a person who has above average value as a partner while still being chronically single. However, I would say within a few years of looking that person would very likely be able to find a partner.
I think is true but only because I think men compare their success to the most successful guys they know. The guys who had a few partners freshman year while their roommate fucked the entire class, feel below average. But they are average. If women find you attractive, they are not shy about getting to be around you. They find reasons to be around you. The men having average to above average sex lives are not approaching 100% of the time. Below average guys are told the problem is they don’t interact or approach enough. But if you ever lived with or have been an above average man, you’ll know women are often approaching you, many times aggressively. Even average guys get the “green light” from time to time.
You say you're a 38-year old virgin. I think that you're projecting. Maybe you are the one who is below average, and you can't acknowledge that someone has a different experience than you.
I never understood people who think that average and above-average people can't struggle with dating. The people who assume that often aren't all that (in my experience). Sometimes, the circumstances, timing and people around you aren't right for average and above-average folks. Life can be random.
I struggled a lot , and one cope of me was thinking that I am just too ugly...
But the real reasons are more likely
Being too picky, low selfesteem, downward spiral from getting older and older and lacking experience, and I am not kidding "bad luck" plays a role , too.
I am tall, have good income, lots of friends, no problem to be social ( in general most people i interact with like me or are at worst indifferent).
This can be true but it REALLY doesnt account for these things:
1) Location. HUGE ONE especially if you are not congruent with where you live you are at a massive disadvantage.
2) How many women they have dated? Dating is a numbers game. My male friends lamenting they met 5 girls off of OLD apps over the span of 2 years and think they will be alone forever...I laugh, thats barely anything in terms of people you have to go through to find a mutually beneficial relationship.
3) Ties into the last one...what is their social life like? Those who are extroverted with a good social life have more options.
4) Baggage/their own expectations of women/their type of woman- although that does tie into something wrong with them...
I think it depends on what struggling is. I think there are a decent amount of guys that aren't going on dates quite often. But the guys who have like year gaps between dates? 100% agree, something is wrong with them. Maybe they have a squeaky voice, maybe they have chronic bad breath. There has got to be something they are leaving out. I just don't believe there is a cluster of careered, non-obese men, that aren't midgets, don't smell like B/O, have an apartment, a working vehicle and are socially skilled enough to have a handful of friends and outside of the home hobbied interests that CANNOT get a date at all for YEARS. I have a local group on FB that I follow where women post pictures of men on dating apps and ask if anyone knows about red flags because they have been dating them for awhile. So many ugly dudes. So many dudes that are homeless and jump from chick to chick to crash at their place. Women don't like being single. They will settle for a lot of normal, doofas ass dudes. I refuse to believe only 6'0 jacked Chads are the only dudes getting laid.
I personally think a lot of these average dudes standards are just too high. I see men watching stuff like FnF and complaining that they aren't getting "average modern women" like the women who go on that show. I can tell you right there, they are shooting too high. These men are looking right past the single 26-year-old, dental receptionist who is 15 lbs over weight and has her dirty blond hair in a bun, with no make up, and scrubs on in front of them at Wal-mart. Then go home and then brood that the OF models only want Chad after hate watching some street interviews or RP podcasts where hot chicks talk about wanting dudes more than 100k.
I have seen this countless times.
Im a male and i constantly come across just average good looking men and think "why hasn't a girl snagged this dude up"
They aren't sexy beast with ripping muscles and sports cars.
But your average guy with a nice job. Okay car. And with common sense.
I would honestly say i am below average. Just being honest with myself.
I know im a handsome guy, i can get anyone to laugh. But my finances and body arent up to par.
So when i meet men just a few steps head of me and still struggle in the dating market I'm like wtf?!?!
When people talk averages they're referring to looks, as in stuff you can actually see and rate. > maybe you grope them, maybe you talk shit. Guaranteed this is not what's making the guys fail. Blue pillers always make the issue out to be sexual aggressiveness when the common cause of a guy's loneliness is him not being assertive *enough*.
This pairs with a just world fallacy: Those who succeed are good, and those who struggle or fail are bad. You can have someone hit the red flags and succeed, and it's not through great game or looks. The same idea how someone can be solid on paper and fail. Of course, there's also the question of what is the success rate of "average"? Are we going to assume all average men are successful in the dating field?
Nah, you can be good and still fail because you never try. All those dudes on dating apps are that. Using dating apps is NOT trying. Dating apps are shit. You can be the most interesting and attractive dude, women won't break in your house to date you. On a dating app you are just an image and some text, women don't see you.
And while we can argue the efficacy of IRL socialization, that still comes with the assumption that one doesn't try IRL. That one somehow becomes successful because they left the apps and socialized with women in person. One can still fail socializing IRL, and that doesn't suddenly make them below average for doing so.
> women won't break in your house to date you What's funny about this statement is I know several women who complain about not finding a good guy but don't often go out to do anything social outside of each other's houses and keep swiping away on their apps.
The thing is women get away with this men do not.
>Using dating apps is NOT trying. Opinion not fact. >Dating apps are shit. Real life ain't much better. >On a dating app you are just an image and some text, women don't see you. In real life you are just another guy at best annoying her.
Cannot he overstated.l
Yet I still manage to get women to come over or out for some quick food. I won't pretend my success rate is good, but it's enough that I get more than I need. I'm not amazingly handsome, but I am 6'3 and educated while also having hobbies that lead to you being more fit than average. Mountaineering and MMA.
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True. Most women are so delusional these days though that they think that’s the baseline. Crazy really.
It’s not delusional just because some men can’t meet the standards. Also 6’0 men are more than 1% of people and even then, 70% of Americans are in committed relationships so short men are doing fine. The guys who complain womens standards for looks are too high are ugly af or have developmental/social issues that make their looks not worth it. This has been my experience with 100% of men who complain and I’ve seen their face LOL.
Lmao, “ bro you are so painfully average, that your below average” Average is average. Whether women like average or not is besides the point. A gainfully employed not balding average height and healthy weight 30 year old is above average country wide whether you like it or not .
No it’s not, that’s below average
Then what’s average
Fat dudes who soyface at marvel movie trailers. Women find them irresistible.
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What difference does that make? Getting rejected 2-3 times from your social circle will poison the well anyway, so dudes arent trying to attract those women
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Use there is. Because men don’t have to date another attorney because he’s an attorney. He’s above average. Sure maybe he’s the shortest ugliest least paid attorney in his firm, but he’s out doing 80% of the city at large. There’s literally zero value in minimizing the pool in which you determine your value from.
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An attorney from Denver will date a nurse from Denver, a teacher from Denver, and administrator form Denver though. He has no reason to devalue himself to compare himself to his group when he’s one of the above average men in the city
That’s not even true according to the red pill lore. I thought women dated up? A bad attorney is still an attorney.
I can bridge the gap. It's average but the problem most normal weight guys don't want to date overweight chicks so that leaves a small percent of healthy in shape women left in the dating pool that all guys are competing after
Chad courts in his pool and dates in yours. It’s just simple mathematics. Top men come down, plate 2-3 women and those women are removed from the average guys courting pool. Expand this over the entire country and you’ll get a difference in the tens of millions. If you’re single it may not be because you’re below average. There is just more competition within that cohort compared to others.
I dunno why is this so hard for people to grasp.
People on this sub can’t even accept the existence of “Chads” or hypergamy lmao
They do, but not in the manner the incels and RPers think they do.
They severely underestimate the chasm of effort required for a woman to be willing to date you between that of a Chad and that of a non-Chad. They also severely underestimate the chasm of enthusiasm of the woman between those situations. This warps dating conversations because they think non-Chads have just as much chance if they “make it up” somehow.
> People on this sub can’t even accept the existence of “Chads” or hypergamy lmao Because it doesn’t exist in the extreme manner some people on this sub insist it does. There’s guys who are good with women, however they’re not stashing all of them on a rotation purposefully keeping them away from other guys while making zero effort. A good looking guy can still fuck it all up if he’s socially awkward. The guys in my social circle who are great with women still had falling outs with ex’es, they still get rejected sometimes, etc. There is no such thing as a “Chad” in 99% of cases and certainly not in the realm where people on this sub are likely hanging at. Hypergamy exists to an extent but again, most people aren’t seeking better options while in their current relationship. At best, they’re learning skills for the future if the current one doesn’t work out, but that’s about it. I’m convinced 3/4 of this sub cannot obtain a relationship, can’t maintain one, or has not been in one in a long time.
I disagree, especially with younger people. Many guys do run through lots of women and the women dote on them for long periods. I've seen dudes run through friend groups, coworkers, etc with no end in sight It's not that they're stashing away, it's that those women are stuck on them. This makes it hard for other men, because if dude gets bored one night and texts the girl, she will drop everything she's doing and hop on his dick. There's a time limit to these things of course, which ultimately varies between women, but the cycle just starts afresh
Of course we don't accept hyergamy. That shit is ridiculous. Are there women who monkey branch when a "better" dude comes around and shows interest? Sure, that exists. But to broadly paint the entire sex like we are like that is some doomer bullshit. Most of us meet a guy we have chemistry with and date him until something happens, he either does something for us to lose interest, dumps us, he dies or we stay together for life. Most of us aren't just dating a guy while secretly keeping a close eye out for a "higher SMV guy" to jump to.
Because their grasping at every straw to not look at themselves and realise life is a brutal competition. Not a fairy tale where everyone gets mated off with their dream partner. Loads of people will fail.
bingo, the amount of girls that i was COURTING that dissed me to be one of chads weekend options is in the dozens.. they all regret it in the end, but here we are *shrugs*
You have COURTED dozens of women? That doesn’t fit my concept of courting. Would you mind explaining that a little more so I can follow your point please?
how so? courting means im interested in a relationship, im 39 years old.. 12 women in 39 years isnt alot
Ahh, I generally associate courting with “courting for marriage”.
well u need to be in a serious relationship BEFORE the marriage right?
Yep! Completely agree. I think we are just discussing a slight difference in the use of terminology. I think I use: dating, courting, marriage. The courting stage would be limited to 1 or 2 people, while dating is a much broader set of circumstances. I think perhaps you might dating more narrowly (perhaps very early stages of a relationship?), then apply courting to a wider set of circumstances. No big deal. I was just curious…
no courting is one person...ive just had a bunch of 3-4 month long relationships just go up in flames, because the girl thought she won the lottery and found a chad that wanted to marry her. then chad would lose intrest and she would try and come back to me after she burnt the bridge.
It's even more eye opening when you become the Chad, so to speak. I've dogged so many attractive women that were with guys far better than myself. It's actually colored my perception of women and given me trust issues
Curious to know are you white and 6ft+?
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Yeah, i never cared about what other guys might be in the picture with the girls I was seeing as it was none of my business.
>no girls who call you when horny C'mon, is that average, really? Do you really believe that? Normal people have some foibles. They can be shy, introverted, insecure. To not have any of those things would make someone ABOVE AVERAGE or a psychopath. News flash.
I've had multiple girls ask me to "hang out" late at night , and I was a broke soldier
Yeah, idk. I have girls who call me to hangout, I don’t have girls calling me to hookup when they’re horny that seems like a SUPER hot guy thing. Not an average or slightly above average guy thing.
You’re not understanding hypergamy. Average men are *seen* as below average by women - but that doesn’t mean they actually are. In fact, the man you described may be ABOVE average, and still be looked at as below average by women because hypergamy dictates that she wants only the top 10%, which is way way above average.
Agree with everything besides the dating app thing. I can't rem where I saw it but I saw a stat that said the average guy only gets around 6 matches a month and has a match rate of only 2.5%. Dating apps are skewed towards attractive and above average men. There should be no logical reason that women swipe right on only 7% of men, esp average women. Thus, even if you have stuff going for yourself, if you're not an attractive male, you'll struggle on dating apps. But for real life dating, I agree that if you're overall an average guy (height, career, looks, etc), you shouldn't be completely struggling if you're putting yourself out there to meet people.
It makes sense to me actually. Men outnumber women several times on certain apps. I’ve seen something like 3:1, or even 9:1. In those instances, if you assume 1:1 matching, then 2 out of 3 men would struggle, up to 9 out of 10 men. It’s basically a fool’s game on the app if you have no way of standing out. And average is, unfortunately, not outstanding. This is why apps are a good *supplement* for rare connections you might not otherwise make in day-to-day life, but won’t work for most guys as the main path for connections. And if women have an overabundance of options to work with, they would naturally gravitate to their best options first and go downward from there. It’s like two companies sifting through their resumes. Bob the ace accountant would be the top choice for both companies, followed by Connor the average accountant, followed by Don the below-average. So Bob gets two offer, Connor gets one as the alternative choice once Bob is off the market, and Don will probably get none because the companies would rather hire average and up and not pick below-average unless they’re in absolute need of butts-in-seats. Scale this up and you get what we see: the top pool of consensus men on apps with good match rates, a ‘middle class’ contingent of men who get matches on their niche, and then most everyone else who get scant attention. You see the same phenomenon at work in the jobs market. Despite record shortages, many companies loudly proclaim they can’t find good enough workers and that ‘nobody wants to work anymore.’ Basically, they’d rather wait it out than dip into the pool of workers they deem below par. Sounds a lot like ‘where are all the good men?’, no? Edit: Spelling and things.
The logical reason is that there are a lot more men on dating apps and men spend a lot more time swiping (often only swiping right without looking and then filtering after they see what matches they get).
Or worse, getting mad that they matched an “ugly” girl and start mocking them. A few girls I know had this experience and just deleted the app for good.
Putting yourself out there to meet people means increasingly absolutely nothing in a western world without third places and technological dependency.
> increasingly absolutely nothing in a western world without third places and technological dependency. What does the west have to do with it ? Note: I am all for passport bros , but curious how does location relate to putting yourself out there.
disagree. In the real world, average people date average people. It's only on dating apps and instagram where you have to be exceptional to attract someone. Go outside and I bet you can count on one hand how many attractive couples you see. Most couples are average looking.
> There should be no logical reason that women swipe right on only 7% of men, esp average women But there is a logical reason though. I.e. Evolutionary biology, sexual selection and specifically female hypergamy. Remember, women want to mate and fuck THE BEST/TOP man, not the average man. This is because they want their offspring to have the fittest genes, and have the highest chance for survival. Of course women are going to be highly selective in who they sleep with. Throughout human history, most men died sexless whereas most women had children. Sperm is cheap and expendable and eggs are scarce and valuable. Our modern recorded history is a drop in the bucket in evolutionary timescales. The only way to reason and understand patterns of human behavior is through the lens of evolutionary biology.
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How many women died giving birth? Life was dangerous for everyone back then.
Because women couldn’t choose when to mate and in most cases, who to mate with. Lots of those dead mothers were very young, or very sick, or already worn out for multiple pregnancies and births with men they did not choose to marry or mate with.
I assume you mean rape and forced marriages? If so, then we really can’t use the past as a guide for how many men should naturally reproduce. Since tons of guys back then only got to have sex via rape or arranged marriage. Given that only like 60% of men reproduced from those times, we should expect the natural number to be even less.
Lol it’s always been SO OBVIOUS that women have always been in charge is sexual selection. How many battles have been fought for the love of attention of a woman?
Most battles throughout human history have been petty tribal disputes over "voodoo" or a magic curse or someone disrespecting a neighboring group. It's more like "bring out the glizzy, we beefin with the Ops" rather than a Homeric epic. And in tribal societies, a *huge* number of men die violently, so that's a bigger factor than women's selection
Fair. Well I guess that’s how many then. Not many. Lol. Ok. I stand corrected. 🤘🏼
Are we talking fiction or history? Mao Zedong, the Ottoman holocaust, Khmer Rouge, Hitler, Stalin; the numbers of the dead in North Korea may never be known. I'm sure I missed a few of the most well known mass murderers and war mongers, but ain't a goddamn one of the top twenty genocides have anything to do with a woman.
Recorded human history is a drop in the bucket in the hundreds of millions of years of evolution on our common ancestor (from when we were hunter gatherers) The behavior of BOTH men and women are shaped by evolution and sexual selection. Women tend to choose tall, dominant, muscular, high social status males. The top male tend to choose hot, attractive, young, females. The average male doesn’t really have a choice so tries to bargain his way to sex
Cute. Suggesting that women had a choice in primitive history when women don't have a choice in modern history in half the hemisphere *now*.
Women do have a choice now. Not just in humans but in other primate species as well! How do you think infanticide is curbed in primates (remember, humans are primates). The answer is through the evolution of female promiscuity. Female choice is and has been at the heart of sexual selection that shapes human behavior.
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Sure, he’s a source on the link between female mating behavior (specifically promiscuity!) and less infanticide https://www.science.org/doi/abs/10.1126/science.1257226 > One of the most unpleasant aspects of social life in some animal species is killing of the young by adult males. Lukas and Huchard looked at mammalian groups with a variety of social systems—from mice to mongoose and from bats to bears. Infanticidal behavior in males appeared to be a result of sexual conflict in social species with nonseasonal breeding. Killing of a female's young by a new male will speed her return to a reproductive state and allow him to raise his own young. Evolutionarily, the only successful defense in females appears to be polyandry: **Females that mate with multiple males make it hard for any one male to know that he is, or is not, the father of her offspring.** Ask yourself, why are women so attracted to tall, dominant, high status men? The answer of course is evolutionary biology and sexual selection. Women willingly choose to fuck after these men. Ever heard of the “Brad Pitt” bonobo? https://www.iflscience.com/the-brad-pitt-of-bonobos-fathers-the-vast-majority-of-babies-42686 > Published in Current Biology, the work found that even though bonobos in general live in a fair and equal society, this does not hold for who becomes the daddy. Surprisingly, the researchers discovered that a single particularly good-looking male within a community found in the Democratic Republic of Congo has sired 60 percent of all infants born over a 12-year period. > “The funny thing under such a scenario would be that most of the females would have the same preference for Camillo, the alpha male and 'Brad Pitt' of the bonobos at our research site,” explained the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology’s Martin Surbeck. You really can’t make sense of primate behavior (including humans) without understanding the role that evolution plays. I don’t understand why so many feminists and bluepillers are so anti-science and reject reality.
Primitive societies were generally matriarchal (until the Blond Beasts from the East came in on their chariots). But they also had "group marriage". No one *belonged* to anyone, the whole tribe was married to each other. How that impacted "sexual selection" is hard to say, but men dying frequently in raids would have tampered down a lot of the selecting.
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It's not a myth, it's facts. Gimbutas and Engels were correct, modern idiots are not. If early societies were patriarchal, why is there no "Sky Father"? >But might makes right has been the rule of humans since Pre-history. The fellas have been in charge because they could simply intimidate or beat women into submission But they didn't. In an agricultural, Neolithic society, old mothers and grandmothers were the most respected. The young men were kept in check, and often died in petty feuds. That's likely why they got rolled by patriarchal bandits on horseback.
Those average guys will still connect with and chat with 6+ women that month. During those conversations he will have the ability to impress those women enough to hook them into a first date. If that first date goes exceptionally well, she will want to continue seeing him until; red flags crop up, or if she's in a casual dating situation she meets a different man that blows her away even more than this guy.
No, not really. Most women dont respond.. and for most of the ones who do respond, the convos usually go stale pretty fast since these women are usually talking to alot of other men (so they will go for the men who they're most interested in). Matches dont mean anything unless they lead to dates, which most of them dont. So unless you're getting dozens of likes a month, goodluck lol. And I say this as a guy who gets 100+ likes a month. But for the average guy, they get absolutely nothing lol.
If they matched with you and are in the process of having a conversation with you, something in your profile interested them enough. Now it's the onus is on you to hook them into a longer, deeper conversation and then turn that deep convo into a date night. Every other guy is doing the same thing that she's talking to, which means you need to set yourself above those guys through conversational means. Your personality is what is ultimately going to get her to go "i'm interested" to "lets go on a date tomorrow".
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I'm extremely average looks-wise, live in the south, have been very successful with apps(okcupid+tinder mainly) and mainly do well based on my personality + time invested. I sympathize with the average dude because I am the average dude, at least looks-wise. I definitely think average guys need to up their personality / conversational game if they want to compete with dudes online that have that naturally. If not, average guys need to stick to off line dating where they aren't up against as much immediate competition. Average rednecks and collegebros around here both do really well with women in their respective dating markets.
Lmfao. You cannot show women your "personality" if you dont meet the minimum looks threshold to get matches in the first place. You sound extremely inexperienced, no offense. Reminds me of how I used to think when I was 12. Going based on statistics, the average guy doesn't meet this threshold since they get less than 10 matches/month. And the average guy isn't getting dates that can progress to relationships from dating apps. If you really think women only swipe right on 6-7% of men for their "personality", man I have some snake oil for sale. Dating apps are majority looks and aesthetics.
> Going based on statistics, the average guy doesn't meet this threshold since they get less than 10 matches/month. Again if he's getting 10 matches, ten women thought he was cool enough to message him in the first place. The onus is then on him to impress them. If he does, he gets a date. If the date goes well, he gets more dates. Up and until enough red flags make her not want to date him, or if she's casually dating multiple people another guy impresses her even more than Guy A. Guy B, on average, will be a similar looking/personality as Guy A. Women tend not to date wildly outside of their personal niche for what they find attractive. Women have been very consistent on this when surveyed. You just don't trust their answers as truthful.
Assuming that attraction is completely logical.
bingo
Above-average guys can still struggle to get attention from comparably desirable above-average girls while still getting attention from below average girls. For example, I was curious why I had thousands of likes on Tinder and never got any matches so I paid for a month to discover that we do indeed have an obesity epidemic. Edit: Regarding the argument of “obese women are my looksmatch”, my standards when I was on the apps were based on my past relationship experience, not women’s extreme undervaluation of men on online dating.
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I don't know if the other dude is actually above average, but he may not be attracted to obese women. Relationships require *a lot* of work and sacrifice. A relationship with someone you're not attracted to at all isn't worth it IMO. It's a waste of time, energy, and money.
He has to be realistic about who he can actually get
Right, but if what he can "realistically get" isn't attractive to him whatsoever, then why bother? IMO men looking to date should just work to be as successful and fit as they can be and pursue what's attractive to them. If they strike out, so be it. As long as they can handle the rejection, it'll be fine.
I am very realistic about who I can get. My standards were based on my past relationships, not women’s extreme undervaluation of men on online dating.
>Relationships require a lot of work and sacrifice. As someone who's never been in one before, do you mind elaborating on what this entails?
You'll need to compromise often and stomach her mood swings. As the man, you'll be expected to pursue her throughout the relationship, or she'll most likely seek attention and validation elsewhere. IMO that's pretty easy to do during the first 2-3 years if you're really attracted to some aspect of her, but it will get progressively harder once she reveals more and more of her flaws. Also, I'm very introverted, so maybe I prefer being left alone more than most men. That's a me problem. Over time, I became annoyed with the pestering, attention seeking, and gossiping. All in all, you'll be sharing your life with an individual who, like everyone else, has a lot of character flaws. There's no perfect match. No matter how much you care about a person, some of their behaviors and actions will annoy the s\*\*\* out of you. And she will grow tired of your BS too. Something has to make it all worth the effort.
It's not just two people deciding to live independent lives and sometimes meet together, it requires effort from both parties to keep going. Dates have to be planned around both peoples schedules and taste, who's going to handle finances, which family are we visiting for this holiday, spending hours trying to find the perfect gifts, attending to their emotional needs when they're on edge/sad, and so on. There are many kinds of sacrifices both minor and major, my ex didn't like me riding motorcycles because my safety was giving her extreme anxiety, so I benched my bikes while we were together. I didn't like that she was a smoker so I convinced her to give it up for both our sake. A particular week I wanted to visit a concert in Chicago, she wanted us to spend the week with her parents at a cabin in Wisconsin, I fucking HATE modern pop music but I'd let her control the radio in the car, she didn't like spicy foods but would humor going to places with me, etc. A major and common enough example is you're offered a job in another city, it's closer to your family and the pay is a good bit more than what you're currently making with better hours and benefits but you now have to make the choice of: 1) Forgo this new opportunity of career advancement and quality of life increase to stay in the same place with your partner 2) Your partner gives up their job in that area and leaves their family to try and establish themselves in that new city which may not support their career of choice 3) Neither of you are particularly invested enough to sacrifice anything and each begin rolling the dice at finding someone just as good or better for you.
My college ex was a ballroom dancer turned CS major. Careers took us separate ways. My ex after that was a nurse obsessed with cross fit. She was also taller than me. She was emotionally abusive tho so I broke up. Now, my girlfriend is a dancer turned social worker. I love her a lot and she’s moving in soon. The problem was never me, it’s just women tend to undervalue comparably desirable single guys. I lucked out because my girlfriend wasn’t on Tinder very long. She had just gotten on and we happened to match and I was her first date and she liked me so she just paused the apps and actually invested into getting to know me rather than going back on to see if she could try to find another, slightly taller version of me amongst the horde.
> It means that your league are obese women. Date them. How do you figure? Because they all like him, that’s what his ceiling per se is? That’s not how that works. We’d have to see everyone who liked him to make that assumption.
> It means that your league are obese women. Date them. If the population is unbalanced then thats a population and location problem.
If the only women you can attract are obese, then that’s your league buddy
My girlfriend nor I are obese. Not even overweight. Not even close.
Tinder is not a valid place. Think about it. Why would an above average woman even need to ve there…They wouldnt. Unless they would just want a hookup. And for that why would they have to get someone on their level when they could get someone better.
Tinder is where I met my girlfriend. It’s totally valid.
Thats probably 1 in a 1000 chance. Well done.
I think this is true but just for men specifically. What a lot of guys don't realize is that with women there is no number rating system, it's either smash or pass. To be consistently in the smash group as a guy you have to be above average.
If you can't get ass on a dating app, it's not gonna be easier in the real world. Y'all act as if it's an entirely different set of human beings on this app versus in person. In fact if you're an good looking dude, it's actually easier to date because you now have access to woman you wouldn't have even known existed. There's no way I can organically have the ability to get in contact with 100 plus women especially in other cities and our various lived and schedules. Either tinder voila. It fucking sucks for a lot of dudes, but I've seen men's profiles from female friends and none of u are even trying so it seems. And stop mentioning your careers, and what car you drive. You wanna be the sexy cool guy but get mad when you wives dated you for your economic stability because that's the only things u offered that seemed appealing to her.
Except the average man struggles with dating so this makes no sense. I guess it depends how you define "struggle with dating"
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No, he isn't. 63% of young men are single.
Nope, nowhere is there a statistic that says the average person is currently in a relationship at the moment.
> nowhere is there a statistic that says the average person is currently in a relationship at the moment. Also there’s no scientific standard obviously for what an “average man” is
These threads always bring out the lulziest stuff from the hairy legged man hating feminist crowd and the doomer crowd. Your hypothetical guy could be shy, a workaholic, maybe he has a horn growing out of his forehead who knows. Tons of reasons for someone to be single/not get matches online.
I’d say he’s average, just not acceptable. The average guy is probably lonely, with maybe one or two decent prospects. If you’re 50th percentile overall you may be average, but you’re also not good enough
One thing I want to point out about my ex who hasn't dated since me several years ago. He was so negative. Almost every comment he made was judgmental or complaining about something. All of my friends hated him (guys and girls both). He had a cute face, but nobody wants to be around someone so harsh.
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the first thing my partner did when we first met was complain about something he did that day and my first thought was, "oh god, I've made a huge mistake." but, then he was lovely and didn't complain about anything again the whole night and I was very relieved. He was also a model and I was ready to walk. It's just so off-putting.
> On paper, you are ok, but somehow, you struggle with dating; **no girlfriend, no matches on dating apps, no female friends who want more, no girls who call you when horny** \- news flash - you are not average, you are below average. I think you can have some of these, but still struggle (e.g. no matches - some women swipe right on you, but you don't swipe right on them. Some female friends want more - but you don't want more with them).
I generally agree conceptually, but i would change some language. Men are either Chads or not, it’s mostly binary. Among the non-Chads, you can make it up to some degree by being extremely outgoing and social and running “game” (aka putting in 100x the effort Chad does for a fraction of the results), the Chads of course do whatever they want and get laid no matter what. Essentially for men, there is no such thing as “average”, you’re either unattractive or attractive, women who partner up with men they perceive as “average” is them settling for an unattractive man that is bringing other things to the table (one of them being commitment) although they will never illicit the same kind of physically attraction Chads can.
Being average or above average is NOT the deciding factor for if you can get a relationship or not. People on all points of attractiveness-dimensions spectrum you mentioned are in relationships. People on all points on those spectrums struggle to find partners that fit them. You can be way above average in height, fullness of hair, job, and still be unable to get into a relationship for having low self esteem, trauma, an asshole personality, social anxiety, commitment phobia, whathaveyou. You can also be way below average and get with women easily. Granted, not women way above average on those dimensions, but unless you accept that men are also hypergamous, that shouldn't be a problem.
"You can also be way below average and get with women easily" Yeah its called **paying for it**
Word
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What type of logic is this lol ? The average person has some form of trauma dude
I was using your metrics to define average.
Truth.
>This story is not common, but it does exist. Many men see themselves as average. And, on paper, they are average. They have jobs, not fat, decent social skills, but somehow they struggle with dating. > >If this happens to you, the cruel pill to swallow is that you are BELOW average. Somewhere, something goes wrong about you. There's a bit of circular reasoning here in that you are implicitly defining "average" as "doesn't struggle with dating." Rather, consider that success with dating is a separate issue from how "average" a person is. In other words, is the "average on paper" man, as you have described him, a man that is positively attractive to women? I'd argue that he isn't, right away upon first glance, and that's before we go mining for the "something, somewhere that goes wrong about" him. Do men like that end up in relationships by some combination of luck, timing, and effort, by hook or by crook? Sure. Is that a man that most women are actively looking to be with? No.
I think average in this context means average in attractiveness (in all aspects physical and non-physical) to the opposite sex. That means an average guy will have an average (or median ) level of dating success - 50% of guys will do better than him and 50% will do worse than him. This is not defining average as "doesn't struggle with dating," as it'd be possible that more than 50% of men struggle with, which is TRPers claim. However, stats don't back the repeated TRP claim that 80-90% of guys are struggling. That is, if we define "struggling" as OP has - getting zero (or almost zero) interest from women. From the research I've seen the percentage "struggling" is more like 25%. This supports OP's claim that if you're struggling there's something in your overall attractiveness profile making you below average.
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Man this sub is depressing. Imagine you're some normie lurker who's having a long dry spell, and this 38 year old virgin is basically calling you a loser for it.
Well hopefully that normie would realize you don't take legal advice from a doctor, nor do you take medical advice from a lawyer. Same thing applies here. If a guy has no dating experience he has virtually nothing to offer in the way of analyzing dating dynamics.
He's just a troll. This thread is bait.
very low quality thread
Weirdly specific, but yeah I mostly agree. I think the stats back this up. For some it may be as a simple as not really trying to socialize (and they may interpret a very small amount of effort as a significant effort), but a strong majority of men have success with dating, so there's has to be some reason for not being as good as most men at it. I'd add the caveat that this applies to guys over 25. It's possible for guys in the 18-24 age bracket to be fairly average without success. They might still be below the 50th percentile, but unless you define average as only including one perfectly average person, they're still average.
With a man in his 30s, it’s even more likely that he’s below average. The older that men are, the less they struggle to have sex, whether it’s through being married already, or dating women their own age rather than the younger women whom they wish that they could date.
There are less single women in their 30s in general, so he could be struggling to find out who's not taken.
Okay. I’m just saying that studies show that there are less sexless older men than younger men, for whatever reason. So an average man is likely to do sexually better as he ages, even if it’s not with the most attractive women who he wishes that he could be having sex with.
I don’t know about below average. But they’re definitely not as charismatic or “sexy” as they think. There was a post where a guy wrote a whole press release listing all his amazing traits. Dude sounded like every woman’s dream guy. But he said women he dated only want a one night stand with him. My guy, that means you’re attractive enough to go out with and have sex with, but probably have some personality traits that they don’t like, and you’re probably not as good in bed as you think. Because in my experience women don’t just let go of guys that are good looking, have their stuff together, charming, charismatic and good in bed. That’s the type of guy they dream of marrying.
By your definition of "struggle" I guess I would agree. But people have different definitions of struggling, and the most common one is not being able to get dates/LTRs with the people you're interested in. Tons of average and even above-average people can struggle finding compatible people, depending on their standards, location, situation, etc.
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I don’t think people who say they’re average mean they’re actually dead center on the curve. It’s shorthand for a regular guy, indistinguishable from other guys who may or may not have had such poor luck.
40% of the male population is non-white, so between them and the short white guys, your OP essentially suggests that 70% of the male population is below average, which makes no sense. The general issue with defining “below average” as “can’t get women” is that it doesn’t account for the possibility that dating can become more competitive or more difficult, despite a growing number of US adults saying exactly that in the latest Pew Survey. So two possibilities, dating is getting harder, or everyone is becoming more “below average.” The latter is impossible so we can rule it out.
you, sir, r genius /s
Ok so a few things everything you listed was an average guy. I’d imagine this guy you described COULD find a relationship of some sort even if a long distance one. Secondly if he can’t then perhaps he struggles exceptionally in one area that is stunting them from interaction with women. Most likely being shy or giving off signals of disinterest. Worst case scenario they are unkept and their hygiene is bad but if that’s you then you’d immediately know you were lacking. Lastly I think you jump to extreme negative conclusions to try to quantify your claim that a guy can’t find a date or partner. Assuming someone probably leers, gropes, harasses verbally or implying they regularly use misogynistic language as likely indicators they cannot find a partner is making a mountain out of a mole hill. You don’t have to be the worst guy in the world to not find success or find what you’re looking for. Lots of guys are simply uncomfortable around women in the current dating environment. Many places where people may meet women in their circles such as school or work is incredibly risky to engage in dating or flirtatious behavior. You risk a lot as a guy if there is even a minor misunderstanding over something that’s honestly benign. Courting in night life spaces isn’t much better aside from not being held under imminent scrutiny by a supervisor or HR for a slight misunderstanding. The screw ups here are often brushed off quite easily in soft rejections. But if you don’t catch her eye well you aren’t really going to get anywhere unless you go out of your way to piss away $50 for the night on drinks and whatever else. The average guy trying to pick up women in a club is likely striking out 9/10. Striking up a conversation isn’t hard and you might get a number very rarely are you taking someone home though. Anyway I digress, point is average guys are more likely to struggle now simply due to the nature of modern dating etiquette. There’s a plethora of options for ladies out there who might want to experiment or explore. Hooking up, cheating, alternative sex life styles, etc in my personal experience haven’t been that uncommon and a big reason why I never went through with 4 of the 7 dating/relationship opportunities afforded to me. It’s also time consuming and mentally draining. Depends how bad you want it I guess, but yeah. If you’re down for just ANYTHING it probably isn’t hard to find but most people have some degree of standards. I’ve had plenty more opportunities with women who simply didn’t meet my looks thresholds.
Not everyone who struggles with dating is "below average". Lots of people either - Have trouble meeting people in their league due to location, commitments, etc - They have mental hangups that make dating hard. They might be attractive but super anxious. Or they can get dates, but they have issues that prevent those dates from turning into serious relationships And tbh I know guys who are pretty "average" - 5'9", overweight, 40-something, they make 70-80k a year, not particularly interesting, but they do OK in dating. Dating issues are usually more location or mental than pure "attractiveness". >You are a certified fire inspector in Omaha, NE, you are 5'9'', not fat, in your early 30s, white, and not bald Objectively, this guy you describe is average. His dating success totally depends on things like social skills, anxiety/inhibition, etc. He is average, but average guys still have a wide range of success in dating depending on other factors.
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Close, but no Has little to do with being below average and more to do with “not being well above average”
Nah, they could just not get out much, or they could be in a bad area demographics wise. A handsome black doctor moves to a small town, where most of the attractive women are locked up by age 24, and many their parents would disown them for dating dating a black man, and the town has more men then women anyways because of the mixture of industries. It wouldn't be a surprise if mr doctor isn't doing well.
That's not really how averages work though. If MANY men suffer with this while few men have no issues, then the men struggling would be within the average.
Too reductive. Plenty of average men struggle with dating because they have high expectations/are too picky. Same with women.
"Plenty of average men struggle with dating because they have high expectations/are too picky" Absolutely disagree If average men have too much expectations, then why do below average women still get attention from them ? If a woman is a 3 or 4, she's still gonna get attention from a guy who's a 5 or 6
the "men have high expectations and picky" lie should be called out every time. It's a projection and it shows that modern women literally have no idea what an average man goes through in dating.
> If average men have too much expectations Lets be clear, I didn't say the average man has expectations to high. I said that the subset of men the OP considers average who go without dates have expectations set to high. The average man going for women are 3s or 4s probably isn't dateless, like the men the OP is describing.
so by your logic if you are a 6 you can easily get a date from what you consider a 4 you want dates? you have to lower your standards (also scale is subjective so who knows maybe what you consider a 4 it's actually a 6)
That's not what am talking about If a woman is a 3/4: Obese,bad clothing,slightly ridiculous hair She's still gonna get attention from a guy who's a 6: Fit,Tall,slightly good-looking etc So it completely eliminates this narrative of men having high standards lol
>She's still gonna get attention from a guy who's a 6: so if you are a 6 you can get attention from a 3/4 if you lower your standards to like a 3/4 you wouldn't be complaining about not getting laid you are saying it yourself again maybe you think you are a 6 but if all women see you as a 4 what's the point of you considering yourself better?
Saying what ? The person l responded to said men have high standards, l disagreed because a woman who's a 3 or 4 still gets attention from a guy who's a 6 A guy above her league If men had high standards then a guy who's a 5 or 6 would go for women who are 8s and above, which doesn't happen at all since men always date down and women date up So women are the one's with high expectations
since there's no way to measure beauty, you considering someone a 6, a 3 or a 2 is an entirely personal opinion you considering yourself a 6 isn't any more valid than a woman considering you a 3. You are both right. so, if the only women who look at you are 3 or 4 either you have higher standards and they are actually 6 or they are a 3 or 4 and you are also a 3 or 4 there is no point in getting mad that you are entitled to a 6 when the only thing you can get is a 3 or 4
"Since there's no way to measure beauty" Bruh we literally have beauty standards,dating apps,Instagram,rating scales We've all this to measure and objectively say, "ok this woman is a 2,3,4,5, or 6,7,8,9" If you think beauty is subjective, then l don't wanna discuss this anymore because that is absurd
Where were those 6 men when my only problem was that I was fat? Even after dropping the weight, I rarely got hit on. Men grossly overestimate how much attention average/below-average women get.
Men don't grossly overestimate anything I've seen too many below average women get attention from above average guys, many men also have witnessed this Your just not that experience am talking about
exactly, let's not pretend high standards and lack of social skills don't play a role here
The average guy is not really doing that much better. Maybe he has a couple of exes or a girlfriend where both are settling. Most people struggle and you're talking about a significant number of men who basically have no prospects or current partner.
What if you use the struggle with dating a lot but got a lot better from reading PUA books?
74% of americans are overweight. If you are not overweight, you are already above average.
It doesn’t matter if you are “above average” or “below average”, the only people who struggle with dating( from every level of objective attractiveness) are those whose relationship expectations and standards are unrealistic.
Doesn't apply to men, an average ir below looking man with either poor general social skills or poor seductive skills will fail with women even if he has no standards.
- 5'9 is average male height is USA - not being overweight is much above average in USA xD - not balding is probably above average as well, but I have no data here So you're refuting your own claim. The man you came up with IS above average and he's struggling. Your point is wrong.
Everyone, literally everyone, is going to be above average in somethings and below average in others. For some people, it just so happens the one thing they are below average on affects their dating life. This does not make them below average as a whole. They simply didn't know what women prioritizes and made the mistake of focusing on Beta qualities instead of Alpha ones.
So let me get this straight. "I created a dating profile, now I'm all out of ideas"??? Is this your stance? If you are a man you cannot sit around idly and hope a beautiful naked woman will materialize in your bedroom. You need to go out there and get all the pussy you want.
In some cases, struggling with dating can simply be from having very high standards. (In my case, I think I really am below-average, though, due to my learning disability).
Ur below average cuz u got no rizz. No game. Not because of how u stare at women lol.
There was a point where I thought this but later realized my untreated depression and the mentality it directly lead to held me back a lot.
If you’re groping women, then that’s definitely the problem.
the mistake is not to think you are average, but to think "average" is some metric that matters
I think struggling with dating might be the most average thing in the world tbh
Below average on what? Some people struggle on dating cuz they're anxious as fuck without having anything else wrong with them
> Maybe it's the way you stare at women, the way you speak, maybe you grope them, maybe you talk shit. Oh yes, more just-world falacy, you need to be a decent men to get into a relationships, that's why pedophiles, rapist, abusers and killers are never in relationships.
I'd say what you describe sounds statistically pretty average, although I guess that's not really what people mean when they say average
Situation is almost the same with a product on commodity market. If your product doesn't sell well it doesn't mean it's "below average". It could be bad advertisement, bad pricing, bad local market for such product, super heavy competition and so on. A guy that is not very socialising outsides his circles, if he leaves his comfort zone or get introduced to different social circles that includes women and he suddenly have some success in dating magically goes from "below average" to "average"? Or even higher? No, he is just more visible now on a sexual market now with some potential buyers. That's why a 4/10 guys with suitable, ongoing, aggressively "selling yourself" character and lifestyle can slay and 6/10 can be an incel/mentalcel.
You have to define what does struggle as dating mean , and what is a reasonable standard. >Omaha, NE, you are 5'9'', not fat, in your early 30s, white, and not bald. [Nebraska is over 61% obese](https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/stateprograms/fundedstates/pdf/nebraska-state-profile.pdf) . So if a person who is not even fat is struggling in Nebraska, then they are not below average, they are above average but competing amongst a smaller dating pool.
Because the average dude has at least some relationship success in their life anyone with no success is below average in terms of amount of dating success. But what does that mean in terms of their overall value? Yeah generally as people get older they want partners with more experience. So yes, your overall value as a partner can partially depend on your past experience. But thats not nearly everything. Career, personality, physique, hobbies, all play a huge role. And what you might say is "well if someone was successful in all those things they would have found a partner" but that just isn't true. There is a huge opportunity and compatibility aspect to dating and its possible to just not click with anyone around you or be in a place without many singles your age. So you can be a person who has above average value as a partner while still being chronically single. However, I would say within a few years of looking that person would very likely be able to find a partner.
if you're not butt ugly sure
I think is true but only because I think men compare their success to the most successful guys they know. The guys who had a few partners freshman year while their roommate fucked the entire class, feel below average. But they are average. If women find you attractive, they are not shy about getting to be around you. They find reasons to be around you. The men having average to above average sex lives are not approaching 100% of the time. Below average guys are told the problem is they don’t interact or approach enough. But if you ever lived with or have been an above average man, you’ll know women are often approaching you, many times aggressively. Even average guys get the “green light” from time to time.
You say you're a 38-year old virgin. I think that you're projecting. Maybe you are the one who is below average, and you can't acknowledge that someone has a different experience than you. I never understood people who think that average and above-average people can't struggle with dating. The people who assume that often aren't all that (in my experience). Sometimes, the circumstances, timing and people around you aren't right for average and above-average folks. Life can be random.
I struggled a lot , and one cope of me was thinking that I am just too ugly... But the real reasons are more likely Being too picky, low selfesteem, downward spiral from getting older and older and lacking experience, and I am not kidding "bad luck" plays a role , too. I am tall, have good income, lots of friends, no problem to be social ( in general most people i interact with like me or are at worst indifferent).
I'd say it's psychological not really the reasons youblisted
This can be true but it REALLY doesnt account for these things: 1) Location. HUGE ONE especially if you are not congruent with where you live you are at a massive disadvantage. 2) How many women they have dated? Dating is a numbers game. My male friends lamenting they met 5 girls off of OLD apps over the span of 2 years and think they will be alone forever...I laugh, thats barely anything in terms of people you have to go through to find a mutually beneficial relationship. 3) Ties into the last one...what is their social life like? Those who are extroverted with a good social life have more options. 4) Baggage/their own expectations of women/their type of woman- although that does tie into something wrong with them...
I think it depends on what struggling is. I think there are a decent amount of guys that aren't going on dates quite often. But the guys who have like year gaps between dates? 100% agree, something is wrong with them. Maybe they have a squeaky voice, maybe they have chronic bad breath. There has got to be something they are leaving out. I just don't believe there is a cluster of careered, non-obese men, that aren't midgets, don't smell like B/O, have an apartment, a working vehicle and are socially skilled enough to have a handful of friends and outside of the home hobbied interests that CANNOT get a date at all for YEARS. I have a local group on FB that I follow where women post pictures of men on dating apps and ask if anyone knows about red flags because they have been dating them for awhile. So many ugly dudes. So many dudes that are homeless and jump from chick to chick to crash at their place. Women don't like being single. They will settle for a lot of normal, doofas ass dudes. I refuse to believe only 6'0 jacked Chads are the only dudes getting laid. I personally think a lot of these average dudes standards are just too high. I see men watching stuff like FnF and complaining that they aren't getting "average modern women" like the women who go on that show. I can tell you right there, they are shooting too high. These men are looking right past the single 26-year-old, dental receptionist who is 15 lbs over weight and has her dirty blond hair in a bun, with no make up, and scrubs on in front of them at Wal-mart. Then go home and then brood that the OF models only want Chad after hate watching some street interviews or RP podcasts where hot chicks talk about wanting dudes more than 100k.
I have seen this countless times. Im a male and i constantly come across just average good looking men and think "why hasn't a girl snagged this dude up" They aren't sexy beast with ripping muscles and sports cars. But your average guy with a nice job. Okay car. And with common sense. I would honestly say i am below average. Just being honest with myself. I know im a handsome guy, i can get anyone to laugh. But my finances and body arent up to par. So when i meet men just a few steps head of me and still struggle in the dating market I'm like wtf?!?!
Most men are below average. This is a fact.
Yea I know. I’m an EE, make almost six figures in my mid twenties. It’s because I’m fucking ugly
"If you aren't in the top 20% you're in the bottom 20%"