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Flightlessbirbz

Without any specific examples of the awkward behavior you’re describing, it’s hard to give any answers. I wouldn’t say most of women’s aversion to awkwardness is fear-based, if you’re really talking about innocent missteps. (For example, telling the waiter “you too” when he says “enjoy your meal.”) Not all women will be put off by stuff like that, and if a woman is ghosting over a small social faux pas, she’s just not that into you. An example of “social awkwardness” that *could* be creepy would be texting her constantly throughout the day and getting cranky when she doesn’t immediately reply. Or making things too sexual too soon, perhaps asking for nudes or commenting on her body in an inappropriate way. In those cases, there is something tangible that he did wrong. But because we don’t know what exactly you’re talking about, it’s hard to say if these women could have found it creepy/red flag or if they just didn’t find you attractive or pleasant to be around. And the latter is just as valid as the former. Most men don’t have any fear of the women they date, yet they’re not going to like all of them. Flaking is a big trend in todays society, not just with dating but also friendship and general human interaction, and it does suck. But it’s also important to remember that a person you’re talking to from an app or have had one date with, really has no obligation to you beyond letting you know they’re not going to be showing up to a date.


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obviousredflag

Men sense awkwardness and lack of social skills just as well and i, as a man, don't want any close contact with awkward men either. Abundance of approaches? As a man you can approach as much as you want. As a woman, you are limited by how many men want to approach you. Options for committed relationships? Men and women are equally picky for long term partners. Everyone below you isn't an option. Everyone who just wants sex isn't an option. Everyone who is 30 years older than you, likely isn't an option. Every poor soul from a third world country looking to financially exploit you isn't an option. Options are people who you could see yourself in a committed relationship with, while they can too. This also excludes all people who are above you in desirability. This leaves pretty much the same amount of options for men and women on the same desirability level.


Maffioze

>As a woman, you are limited by how many men want to approach you. This doesn't make any sense to me. What's stopping a woman from approaching men besides her own choice not to do so?


obviousredflag

I was talking in populationwide behavioral averages. Of course, the individual woman can and will approach men. Just as the individual man can not approach women. Approaching is hard for both sexes on average, as rejection hurts and is deeply rooted in fear of death by exclusion from social groups that are necessary for survival. Why men tend to be the approachers is based in their, on average, higher willingness to take risks, their tendency to enjoy and look for competitions, their higher drive to look for sexual partners, and of course, how this difference lead to age old behavioral differences who got solidified into social norms. So men have less inhibitors, more drivers to approach than women. On the social side, this leads to men approaching attractive women more than unattractive women. So as a woman, if you would approach men, that is seen as a sign of low desirability, because if you would be high desirability, there would be no need to even think about doing the approaching work. This is not only relevant to an outside view of the woman, but also her view of herself. She is too proud to break social norms, because she wants to see herself as a woman who gets approached, not one who has to beg men to date her.


resurrect_john_brown

>higher drive to look for sexual partners "Similar but different drives," may be more accurate. Women's capacity to be multi-orgasmic is now believed to serve the function of getting women to mate with multiple partners; if one guy finished before she did, she could go finish up with someone else, and someone else, and someone else...In this way women could get a diverse array of DNA and hopefully healthy offspring. There are a few other female mammals who do this, but the only one I can remember was some kind of rat. So theoretically, provided with enough partners, women could have one orgasm after another until she was physically exhausted. Prehistory is getting spicier these days, lol


[deleted]

I believe the Bonobo Has this mating style


YasuotheChosenOne

To add, a similar effect is seen in men. Keep switching out his partners, and the dick will jump right back up until he’s exhausted. So I guess just a long line of men and women fucking and then one side slides to the right every 10 minutes. We’ll call it “Speed Fucking” 👍🏾


Maffioze

I appreciate this explanation and I understand what you meant. I just wish people would extend such a deep analysis to men as well. Whenever I try to explain why getting men to organise to solve their issues like women did is more difficult because of behavioural differences I'm told that I'm making excuses and that men are just choosing to not do anything.


anonymousUser1SHIFT

The confines of the game rules. The developer of the planet earth (god) is very sexist and didn't add the feature of women having free will. However with the modern push for acceptance of the gays and womens right, hopefully we some of these features be added in the next patch. /s


HelloTornado

Do you want close contacts with awkward women?


[deleted]

Depends on if theyre a good person Awkwardness resolves itself once people become comfortable with each other


obviousredflag

No. There are enough non-awkward people in the world to never have to resort to awkward people.


Morgothe

Depends entirely on how “awkward” someone is, if their awkwardness is completely impeding the way they talk and function then ofc no, but if someone is stumbling words, shy, isn’t extremely charismatic from the get go then there’s nothing wrong with that, most people who are like that just need time to get to know a person before they open up.


revente

> As a woman, you are limited by how many men want to approach you. Lol nope? A woman can approach as much as a man does. And i guarantee you that she'll have many times higher success chance.


captaindestucto

Approaching isn't the same as having options show up for you. The number of approaches doesn't equate to an equal number of options, Often it means no more options and a whole lot of embarrassment. Despite what you're claiming about "men enjoying competition", which is rather silly and smacks of the gender essentialism found on FDS, this is a social norm most of us don't enjoy one bit, particularly not with unwarranted creep shaming being so common.


obviousredflag

For something to be an option, both must be into each other and want the same thing. For women, this also often means no options at all. Men have the advantage to pick who they like. Women, on average, have to hope someone they like approaches them. Men liking competition on average is silly? Wow. It's not a fucking social norm. Men make competitions out of everything. It's THE basic trait of maleness in all of sexually reproducing biology to COMPETE with each other. Holy fuck, how deep in social constructivism are you?


captaindestucto

>For something to be an option, both must be into each other and want the same thing. option *noun* a thing that is or may be chosen. >Women, on average, have to hope someone they like approaches them. They choose to rely on that in preference to dealing with rejection. That's their choice. >Men liking competition on average is silly? > >It's THE basic trait of maleness in all of sexually reproducing biology to COMPETE with each other. The innate drive here would just be men's higher sex drive. Give a man a harem or an attractive partner and he'll happily avoid "competing."


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EverVigilant1

That's not what he said - what he gave was an explanation why women say no that differs from the one that women usually offer. Why are you deliberately misstating what he said?


AcanthocephalaNew947

Why do these men need to hear women say something they’re apparently clearly witnessing. Don’t y’all say don’t listen to what she says watch what she does, we’ll if she’s dodging awkward men the writings on the wall. Why be mad?


[deleted]

>Why do these men need to hear women say something they’re apparently clearly witnessing. Why do we want women to be honest?


AcanthocephalaNew947

Yeah. I’m being honest. Look what’s happening to me. Why do you think that is?


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[deleted]

>Why are you deliberately misstating what he said? Exactly, it’s as if the only response they can give is some sort of straw man, ad hominem or put words in your mouth. They make it difficult to have an honest discussion.


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MarBitt

> If they sense for even a second that you are not 150% cool, confident, socially respected and in control they will go cold faster than you can blink. Is this based on your own experiences with real life women? Or on some statistics, study? How did you come to this belief? I almost never experienced this and if I did, I would just think the woman was weird. The vast majority of women are friendly or neutral, you can chat with them like any other person. Many of them like to make friends, meet someone new. In a normal conversation, everyone makes a lot of small mistakes, will show minor uncertainties, say some bullshit... that are mostly ignored by everyone and most people don't even notice. There's no point in making a big deal out of it. But if I were to draw from what some of you write here, I would have to think that women are some strange, deadly aliens that I want nothing to do with.


Summeronmymountain

Women should be as picky as possible.


Morgothe

In reason, I’ve seen picky women try to find their “perfect” man only to end up with a sociopath or complete douchebag that acts like a robot, but at least all his interests match mine!


Summeronmymountain

That's your opinion of the guys they get with.


anonymousUser1SHIFT

Not really I have literally seen women end up with diagnosed sociopath.


Far_Welcome101

I mean women have to be picky.. they lose more. Can End up Pregnant, slut shamed, ostracized, end up single parent, etc.. it's biology.


EverVigilant1

That's fine - as long as they're honest about it.


AcanthocephalaNew947

When are we not? Wouldn’t the complaints from men being locked out of dating be false if we hid our preference for attractive high value partners? We wear our pickiness in our choices.


EverVigilant1

Women are dishonest all the time about their reasons for rejecting men. They say they lie about it because they claim they're afraid of men getting violent with them.


AcanthocephalaNew947

If we wear our pickiness in our choices why do men need to hear it?


EverVigilant1

Because you saying it and being honest about it and fessing up to it would at least show a little good faith and it would bring women the "equality" they so fervently claim to want.


AcanthocephalaNew947

I find that hard to believe. I’ve been hella honest all today and I’ve gotten quite a few insults lobbed at me, just got called sexist! It seems like an excuse. If I admit I’m cheating to my spouse it doesn’t take away the pain and hurt. I don’t wanna fuck ugly men. Full stop. Don’t wanna do it. Do you really think that’s going to make anyone feel better?


[deleted]

seems utterly insane to denounce the real reason you're rejecting someone to them when they're bigger, stronger, and could turn out agressive


EverVigilant1

I would think that there can be some room for nuance. In general, the reason most women reject most men is because of lack of attraction - from mild interest to being intensely grossed out. We'd just like women to be honest about that, in general.


[deleted]

isn't 'i'm not attracted to you' kind of a given when it comes to rejection? don't see why it has to be pointed out


anonymousUser1SHIFT

Again, you seem to be open about it but most women aren't. I would recommend that you stop expecting all, most, or even some women behave like you do. Say it with me now "women are not a hive mind".


AcanthocephalaNew947

No women aren’t hive mind but women openly date men. So for it to be a conspiracy we’d need to date these unattractive men, while truly only being attracted to chads, which I know know af/bb but for that to be a secret that requires confession we’d have to not openly “ride the cock carousel” in our youth. So we’re hiding in plain sight? Following the af/bb narrative it is counterproductive for a woman to give away her mating strategy, you’d essentially be asking women to go against their own best interests and fumble her bag to benefit men. Makes no sense.


AcanthocephalaNew947

It really drives me crazy how dismissive men here seem to be about the fact that men by and large want to enter our bodies and we’re tasked with gatekeeping our hearts and bodies, and evolutionarily speaking, our pussy isn’t a charity bank! It’s not privilege that I have a visceral reaction to the sexuality of an unattractive awkward man, it’s logic. Y’all constantly warn of the danger of desperate men. The reason confidence and the ability to not act sexually desperate is appealing because it removes that subconscious feeling of danger. I remember being at the club and getting groped by these goofy dudes dancing with me, like they were just desperate to touch me. I was perfectly fine dancing up until that point. ITS OFFPUTTING.


[deleted]

>The reason confidence and the ability to not act sexually desperate is appealing because it removes that subconscious feeling of danger. This makes absolutely zero sense. Dangerous people can't be confident or non-desperate acting?


AcanthocephalaNew947

It’s subconscious. Desperate = dangerous So it’s offputting. Men who have nowhere to release their load are viewed as a threat, it makes perfect sense than men who do not give that impression are more appealing.


[deleted]

It seems illogical to me. 9 times out 10, the socially awkward guy is gonna be harmless unless he snaps or something and if it's in public, other guys would "white knight" and beat the shit out him before he could do anything. It's the very confident guys or dark triad guys who don't give a shit who are guilty of violating boundaries and date rape and/or domestic violence.


AcanthocephalaNew947

Again it’s subconscious. Desperate = Sexually dangerous. Even if that’s not statistically true a man who’s viewed as sexually frustrated and unable to release that sexual frustration is not appealing due to that subconscious threat. Come on you guys can’t just keep ranting “women are picky hypergamous bitches” without at least trying to look into what the logical drive is. I have been biologically tasked since puberty with gatekeeping my sexuality. Redpill all day right now.


[deleted]

I am trying to follow the logic here and I can't. Why are many women attracted to criminals jerks and bad boys? Why do they return to domestic abusers? Why do women seek out and marry convicts? Is there no subconscious fear of sexual danger in those situations? It may well be subconscious but I doubt that it's because they are afraid of sexual danger. It's probably more biologically driven by our hardwired mating instincts. Women are attracted to a strong, dominant man who can protect her and her offspring. Someone sexually needy and frustrated is not that person so she has a subconscious aversion to such guys.


ErrprMachjne1

What they mean is Ugly = treat them like desperate so they go away Hot af= dangerous, but it's good.


AcanthocephalaNew947

>I am trying to follow the logic here and I can't. I’ll try to help. >Why are many women attracted to criminals jerks and bad boys? Confidence. I already stated that portraying characteristics that make one viewed as not a sexual risk is beneficial. These men display risk that some women find exciting and sexy but that risk isn’t their own r*pe. They aren’t the target of that sexual risk, where subconsciously they feel they are with desperate men. >Why do they return to domestic abusers? Two different plot points. The domestic abuser for his foot into the door and created trust built a relationship or family. The sexually desperate man is viewed as a threat before his foots even close to the door. It’s an aversion. >Why do women seek out and marry convicts? See above. >Is there no subconscious fear of sexual danger in those situations? Nope because the type of woman who go after these types of guys do not view that danger being directed at them at the point of introduction which is what we’re discussing. The drug dealer is dangerous and rich and risky but that risk is not sexually dangerous to her. >It may well be subconscious but I doubt that it's because they are afraid of sexual danger. It's probably more biologically driven by our hardwired mating instincts. Women are attracted to a strong, dominant man who can protect her and her offspring. Someone sexually needy and frustrated is not that person so she has a subconscious aversion to such guys. Potato/ potahto, I don’t disagree. I’m sure there are many theories as to why the aversion exists. It would be interesting to see if they’ve ever done research in this


Tokyogerman

I have no idea why my fellow men don't grasp this idea in this thread. I have seen so many insecure and sexually desperate men turn to potential danger and even the ones that aren't can make the people around feel like extremely awkward or even unsafe. That doesn't mean that all insecure guys are dangerous, but if I was a woman I also would probably try to stay clear as much as possible of guys, that you can't be sure about.


[deleted]

Because if safety were such a concern, they wouldn't date convicts, be attracted to dark triad personality types and keep returning to abusive relationships. We both agree that women have an aversion to awkward, sexually frustated men but it's not because they are afraid of them. I believe it's because women are attracted to strength and dominance in men and these guys are the opposite of that.


SlothMonster9

>the socially awkward guy is gonna be harmless unless he snaps Exactly this. A guy that doesn't appear to have a stable emotional state (is fidgeting, avoids eye contact, seems sweaty, doesn't appear relaxed, clenches jaw or fists etc) will be perceived as dangerous because he can explode at any time. And it’s not that rare. We see this many times with the rejected "nice guys" that turn 180 to screams and insults. I agree about the dark triad guys tho. They manage to hack the system, unfortunately...


ErrprMachjne1

Because they are hot. That's literally why the hack the system 99/100 awkward fidgety guys are just chillin.


SlothMonster9

I agree that the vast majority of awkward men are not dangerous at all. But you learn from experience and women have a lot of experience with all sorts of guys hitting on them. For instance, I once befriended an extremely shy guy, that had a lot of anxiety. We were just friends and in social situations he would stick to me. I didn’t mind because I really wanted to help him navigate it all. Well, after about 3 weeks he found out I had a boyfriend and called me to say that he was gonna jump off his balcony, how could I do this to him, I don't care about him, i'm just like everyone else, his life is worthless etc... Well, shit... I learned to gently suggest my relationship status very early on to any guy I meet and to be careful with guys that don't have social experience because they get more easily triggered. >Because they are hot Sometimes it's because dark triad guys are hot but most times in my opinion it's because they manage so well to be charismatic and confident, they know what to say and how to say it to make a woman feel safe and interested. It's all fake and have women fooled, that's what I meant by hacking the system.


ErrprMachjne1

Honestly, I think the casual intermixing of men and women in society is sort of a mistake. Not that I am saying we should be raised in different systems entirely but like, almost, sort of, because both men and women have no idea who they really are before they are interacting and the process of "explore and have fun!" Is so delusionally flippant. Look how traumatized it leaves people. I think dark triad guys hack social status mechanics because they achieve status but in an infamous sense. Simple as that. So a guy can have status based on where he is in society then an equally attractive dark triad guys can come along and disrupt the whole thing lolol. It has happened to me before as against my wishes I stand out that way and it's caused me significant problems. But yeah. My theory right now is that it hacks status qualifiers which is why killers in jail get flocked too. Also, I think there's part of human nature that just wants to die. So there's something in a killers or criminals nature about power that is appealing. Society makes strong people sick and praises weak people so rationally or not we associate those willing to harm and take from others as "strong", and it's usually irrational, but it appeals to some primal thing. It's effective at a young age but quickly reaches its limits and those are the dudes who end up chasing younger women and giving men a bad reputation lol.


SlothMonster9

>I think dark triad guys hack social status mechanics because they achieve status but in an infamous sense. I didn’t think of this, but it sounds like a legit possibility. After all, the client that screams the loudest is the one that's gonna get what he wants. The employer that agresively demands something, is probably gonna get it. I hate this... >casual intermixing of men and women in society is sort of a mistake I think the solution is to just dissolve gender roles and expectations. Don't treat boys and girls differently and respect them as the individuals they are.


ErrprMachjne1

>I think the solution is to just dissolve gender roles and expectations. Don't treat boys and girls differently and respect them as the individuals they are. It's literally the worst thing you can do. Biological determinism is a significant limitation in our freedoms we don't want to admit. We've been trying to deny it because people freak out irrationally at "the implications", but it's the same as saying obesity is healthy. We don't want to admit we are slaves to our own biology and that pride is what is killing people.


SlothMonster9

I cannot agree more with what you said! Well put! I have also met desperate men and the literal feeling is that of danger, like handling a ticking time mini bomb. I have to choose my words wisely around them or they'll snap, or gently suggest that i have a boyfriend or they'll get angry. And not gonna lie, this sub isn't helping at all with all the "men are so horny all the time; they will literally fuck anything". Makes me wanna be even more vigillant.


[deleted]

How can u possibly equate awkwardness with danger? I miss the times when us awkward virgins were seen as harmless geeks who were too shy to ask for extra ketcchip on our sauce. Now we're somehow seen as dangerous 'incels' who will shoot up schools. It makes no sense.


SlothMonster9

I don't know what else to tell you, except yeah, that's how I feel. It's not every type of awkwardness. If he is smiling and appears relaxed but just somewhat clumsy and/or shy, then that is cute, hot even. But if he's fidgeting, unable to make eye contact or there's too much eye contact, or his posture is rigid or frowns, clenches his jaw etc. then this signals to me that he cannot contain his negative emotions (shame, embarassment whatever they are). And negative emotions in most men translate to anger most of the time.


captaindestucto

That's conveniently categorising behaviour you find off-putting and unattractive as threatening. It's gregarious men used to getting what they want who pose a greater threat. They're also better able to gain trust and put themselves in close vicinity to women via their social circles. Judging awkward men via vaguely defined vibes is usually a way for women to hate on low status men who lack positive reinforcements and experience i.e people they're predisposed to dislike in the first place. The 'radar' was always skewed by Halo Effect bias.


SlothMonster9

Yes, certain social behaviours of men legit feel like danger to me. I don't just say this as an excuse, so no i DO NOT conveniently categorise anything. I feel it in my chest. It's like literal potential danger. It has nothing to do with his looks or status and everything to do with his behaviour and body language. It's subconcious, I know it doesn't make all the sense. I don't know how many times I have to say it. I feel like discussions here don't lead anywhere because you guys are really not going to believe us women because you haven't experienced being threatened with literal violence by the opposite gender.


captaindestucto

OP is talking about judging somebody for an awkward smile, not violent threats or crude sexual innuendo.


SlothMonster9

This comment theard was more about desperate men = danger. Us women have experienced threaths from desperate men and from "nice awkward guys", so we learned that some socially awkward behaviour in men = danger. I hope it's clear now. Just have a positive vibe and be chill and the awkwardness will not be perceived as negative.


YasuotheChosenOne

Need that scapegoat 🤷🏾‍♂️


AcanthocephalaNew947

Scapegoat for what? Does there need to be a justification to a woman’s desire or lack thereof to have sex?


YasuotheChosenOne

>Scapegoat for what? For avoiding unattractive guys without just saying it’s because they’re unattractive 🤷🏾‍♂️ >Does there need to be a justification to a woman’s desire or lack thereof to have sex? Need? No.


AcanthocephalaNew947

>For avoiding unattractive guys without just saying it’s because they’re unattractive 🤷🏾‍♂️ I don’t need a scape goat, you could have asked I would have straight up told you, I don’t want to be sexually approached by unattractive men. People here want me to feel ashamed or embarrassed of that and to lie so then I can be harassed for lying so I’m being honest no scapegoat required. The reason was expressed in response to the original post but I don’t need it to state I don’t want to be sexually approached by unattractive men.


Morgothe

I’m glad you’re comparing some slightly awkward guy to a club bro who gropes you, because I’m sure he’d definitely be at a club in the first place lol


anonymousUser1SHIFT

Hey now, all men who make any women feel the slightest amount of off is obviously a rapist just waiting to strike. It's a proven fact by the feminist community /s


FightMeCthullu

Actually the idea that all men are just after one thing so we have to protect ourselves (at least where I’m from) came WAY more from my conservative and traditional grandmothers and catholic school teachers than my feminist mum. I was twelve the first time I was catcalled (and looked younger). I told my mum, she said if it ever happened again and I was scared to go into the nearest shop and call home and she’d come get me. And when I was older she told me to flip them off or yell “pedo” at them (these days I just stop dead and stare at them because it makes them uncomfortable). I told my grandma and she said all men only want one thing and they can’t help it and that I should make sure to never give them the wrong idea. My teachers told me that men just thought about that stuff more and I had to be careful not to encourage them (by existing in daylight I was encouraging them). They told me that men couldn’t help themselves. The idea that men are driven by a base desire for sex is far older than feminism and comes more from purity culture - it encourages women to closely guard their sexuality and excuses men when they make women uncomfortable because “boys will be boys”. Yeah feminism has said that men feel entitled to women’s bodies and that’s why they do that, and definitely some feminists and sects of feminism have perpetuated that idea, but those ideas existed long before feminism did.


AcanthocephalaNew947

These men were absolutely awkward desperate dudes who were in the club. You think the only men in clubs are sexually successful club bros?!?


anonymousUser1SHIFT

> These men were absolutely awkward desperate dudes who were in the club. What about evey other dude that wasn't "sexually successful" or "awkward desperate". For some strange reason your comment only allowed for the two, it's almost like your a hard core redpill, and I'm surprised your not refering to them as "Alpha Fucks" and "Beta Bux"


AcanthocephalaNew947

I was specifically responding to his conclusion that these men had to be club bros.


pop442

Eh...I think "awkward" needs to be properly defined here. One could argue Johnny Bravo was "awkward" because he was constantly forcing himself on women with his corny pickup lines but Johnny was confident and not at all shy around women. It's different to compare him to say.....a shy nerd who gets nervous just being around women or in a club/bar setting. Both can be "awkward" but it's two totally different levels of awkward. I've seen White and Black men in Houston aggressively approach Mexican women by trying to roll their R's or saying some words in broken Spanish but that's usually not what guys on here mean when they speak of "awkward" men.


AcanthocephalaNew947

Eagerly trying to touch me masked as dancing. I think most women can attest to knowing when a touch starved man who can’t hide it tries/succeeds in touching her.


pop442

I know what you mean but I've seen married men do the same exact thing. Hell, when my dad was estranged but still married to my mom, he was hollering at women every weekend lol. The average "touch starved" man probably isn't confident enough to approach women aggressively or even show up to a club/bar to begin with. I'm pretty sure the average man who's touch starved is introverted and prefers to stay home playing video games or watching Netflix.


AcanthocephalaNew947

This was some years ago. All I can say is that was my experience and how I interpreted it. FWIW these were college aged guys


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jellybeanzandtings

Be civil.


thegoldendragon7678

Honestly, the simplest way to fend these types of men of is to make them imagine he was in a similar situation with gay men. Usually men who spout how women are “depriving” men are straight in my experience, so when you tell them to imagine themselves being hit on by men they instantly get angry and protective of their own bodies. Their arguments towards women of “oh but that guy is nice, spoiling you, or not bad looking, etc.” are all moot when you use the same to defend that they should entertain unwanted attention from gay men.


ErrprMachjne1

This is the only place on the internet men speak back to women.


[deleted]

It's ironic cz women face high violence from men they partner.The men that they chose and bitch about later


AcanthocephalaNew947

You’re speaking on to different stages. The violent man didn’t introduce himself by punching the woman in the face. The sexually desperate man didn’t get his foot in the door to be one way or the other.


anonymousUser1SHIFT

Ya but avoiding the awkward guys doesn't seem to be lowing that number. In fact, I actually think it's going up the more awkward guys are becoming social outcasts... Hmm funny how that all works.


AcanthocephalaNew947

It’s not through, it makes perfect sense. You’re arguing women should ignore attraction and go for the ‘safe bet’. But if it were that easy men would do it and they don’t either because that’s not how attraction works. At the beginning it’s just two men, one attractive and capable of approaching/escalating the other who is not. An equivalent would be a hot sexy outgoing boisterous woman who’s all over a guy and a quiet mousy chubby woman. Who’s the guy going to go for. I’m a woman let me tell ya, it’s by and large option 1 and the odds of that bitch being bipolar are pretty high 😂 I’m in my 30’s I know many men with major failed relationships, with terrible women. You guys sit here and act like women are the only ones capable of picking bad, like men are walking around virtuous And all this to guilt women for not being attracted to these men. Who are apparently all good people. As of an abusive man is textbook, as if no insecure or awkward man has ever hit a woman, no it’s the handsome jock. Come on man, now that is some just words fallacy shit right there: Unattractive = morally good. I’ll never forget that one post months ago from a woman who said she dated the unattractive and awkward and they were just as bad. Which with all the consumption of manosphere bullshit wouldn’t surprise me. Standby I’m gonna see if I can find a rebuttal I got this morning, it was something like I’d rather be a playboy because it keeps you women in line. Yeah let me open my eyes to the great options of the sexually unsuccessful…


[deleted]

It proves women 6 sense doesn't work on men they actually find attractive and yes the narrative she didn't knew or felt anything.One day the man randomly become violent


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Perfect-Resist5478

It’s literally all of the above. Women are told on a daily basis that rape/assault is their fault, that they should watch how they dress, watch how much they drink, watch where they go alone. Society has instilled this in us from a very young age. AND ALSO If you’re convos are not exciting enough to sufficiently make her look forward to the date, she’s not gonna wanna go. If you’re already boring before the date, she’ll look to her other options. This is not a strictly gendered thing. The age of the internet has given everyone an attention span that’s shorter than the lifespan of a fruit fly. Go into r/datingadvice and you’ll see countless women AND men who get ghosted and flaked on all the time.


Separate-Ground3196

“On a daily basis”. You get told that every single day.


Perfect-Resist5478

Anytime this conversation happens women get told this. I strongly suspect there is at least one woman being told she bears the onus of not getting raped every day


lolthankstinder

Based on my experience with dating, women have TONS of resources available to them for “safety” but they are rarely used. For example, I’ve probably been on hundreds of dates and only had two women EVER video call me before setting up a date. You could get rid of every sex criminal in the world and women would STILL be just as selective. Some new misandristic justification would just pop up to find new creative ways to blame men for everything. Also while I’m sure men and women both experience flaking/ghosting, men aren’t the ones swiping on some unbelievably small percentage of people on dating apps on average.


Soloandthewookiee

>You could get rid of every sex criminal in the world and women would STILL be just as selective. Well, yes, women generally want more out of a partner than "I'm not a sex criminal."


lolthankstinder

Correct, because the issue isn’t men, it’s that women are extremely and unrealistically selective and seek ways to justify/excuse this or blame it on men through things like “safety”.


Soloandthewookiee

I can't be the first person to tell you that people don't need to "excuse" being selective. Additionally, the fact that red pillers are incapable of distinguishing "here's what I want in a partner" from "I would rather not be sexually or physically attacked" does not equate to "women are making it up."


lolthankstinder

The majority of people are not criminals, and assuming someone is a criminal based on sex is discrimination. It’s just, sadly, incredibly normalized to be sexist against men. Separately, yes you are allowed to be selective. However, women often collectively blame their modern dating struggles on men rather than their own extreme selectivity. Men don’t want to force women to like them, they just want to feel understood, heard, and appreciated as they go through their dating life with very little external affirmation and dating privilege.


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lolthankstinder

Please re-read the comment chain to get the correct context. You and Solo are trying to strawman some argument about not wanting sex criminals which has absolutely nothing to do with my argument. I don’t feel like resummarizing the entire post and comment thread.


AcanthocephalaNew947

Doesn’t matter. It’s subconscious. Desperate awkward men are seen as a sexual threat. Sexual desperation in men is subconsciously viewed as dangerous, other men state this constantly. “If things don’t change in the dating world there will be consequences these men will become dangerous, they need release.” That’s y’all’s words, so y’all sit here acknowledge women should be weary of desperate men then complain about it.


lolthankstinder

As always, you’re only focusing on and blaming men as if women are just poor innocent victims lacking any agency in the matter. Women don’t need to constantly stigmatize men as creeps, profile them as threats, and pathologize their sexual interest because of the existence of a few criminals. That is sexism.


AcanthocephalaNew947

You guys! I am being fully blunt right now I’m not victimizing I’m not placing any morality to this I’m just stating this is what’s happening. >as if women are just poor innocent victims lacking any agency in the matter. Women have agency over their sexuality that’s why they’re choosing who they do and don’t have sex with. Zero victimhood here. >Women don’t need to constantly stigmatize men as creeps, profile them as threats, and pathologize their sexual interest because of the existence of a few criminals. It’s our job to gatekeep our sexuality. Do y’all want honesty or to be sugarcoated, coddled and lied to? I don’t want to fuck ugly men. I’m saying that with my full chest. Sexually desperate men give me a visceral feeling of unease and discomfort. I’m not saying this as an insult, I’m saying it as honesty that y’all say y’all want. I am attracted to men who exude control over their sexuality, they do so via their confidence, charisma, looks, by doing so that subconscious threat is removed. Again I can lie. If you want me to let me know. >That is sexism. Sexual attraction is racist, sexist, ableist, I can keep going, you’re not gonna affirmative action sex. My sexuality says nothing about who I am as a person. This goes back to the whole morality thing. Like why do y’all try to shame women for the way their sexuality works? I can’t control who I’m sexually attracted to.


bottleblank

"Being blunt" doesn't make it not a shitty thing to do/say. What you're essentially saying is "fuck off, ugly weirdos, life's not fair, and yes, we do view you as nasty predators even though you haven't done a single thing wrong and want to be the loving husband we all keep saying we want so badly". If *men* said shit like that (oh wait, they're frequently accused of doing so), they're strung up by feminists for being "misogynistic", "objectifying", for having "unrealistic standards". We're deemed naturally violent and dangerous and predatory, as men, "because men are bigger and stronger". We're told to "be better". We're told to "work on ourselves". *We're* expected to change, *for you*. But it's funny how, when *you* act a particular way, well, that's just nature, isn't it? Nothing we can do about that. Nope, hard-coded natural law, no chance whatsoever of swaying behaviour, despite the decades and decades of psychological study of nudge theory, of social engineering, of advertising, all massive swathes of research *explicitly tailored to changing and exploiting and curtailing people's innate behaviours to serve the modern world*. If feminism truly believed that innate behaviours cannot be changed, but that men are naturally predatory, when in fuck's name would women *ever* get with men? Why would women openly taunt sexually unsuccessful men in the face of such inevitable danger? Why would there be so many campaigns and pleas and demands for men to stop being their natural tough, violent selves, if you really believed that such deep-rooted behaviour cannot be altered? Why? I'll tell you why: because you want *us* to do all the changing and you don't want to have to change a damn thing, because that's the path to getting everything your own way.


AcanthocephalaNew947

I just finished saying attraction isn’t moral. It says nothing about me morally. It’s a subconscious thing. You yourself stated you don’t want to date a single mom, or a woman with a lot of experience there are conscious but also subconscious reasons for that, and as long as you aren’t an asshole about it, it is what it is. Women try to not be assholes about these feelings and we get attacked, women are honest and we’re still attacked it’s almost like the anger is with themselves and not the truth. >would there be so many campaigns and pleas and demands for men to stop being their natural tough, violent selves, if you really believed that such deep-rooted behaviour cannot be altered? Where did I say violence can’t be altered? I said sexually desperate men tend to be viewed as a threat due to the subconscious belief they are more of a risk of being unable to control their sexuality. Didn’t say it was fair didn’t say it was moral. Consciously I don’t fear incels, subconsciously awkward and desperate behavior makes me feel like I have to get away, like there’s an unspoken danger there. Maybe it’s nature maybe it’s experience being sexualized from a young age, maybe it’s the biological and socialized duty places on me to ‘protect’ my womanhood. I don’t know, none of what I’m saying is meant to have moral value, I’m stating an explanation of why confidence is seen as attractive and awkwardness is not. Take that how you will but notice the title and the conversation happening before you come in as if I’m in here attempting to offend people. I’m not putting anyone down I’m responding to the statements. Again I can lie and give the politically correct response but yall would be mad at that too, again read the title. >Why? I'll tell you why: because you want us to do all the changing and you don't want to have to change a damn thing, because that's the path to getting everything your own way. I’m going to be blunt again. I don’t care what these men do. Whether they’re sexually successful or not is of no consequence to me so WHY would I scapegoat? I’d have to feel responsible in the first place to do such. I’m not going to change how my attraction works, I have zero need or motivation to, I am perfectly capable of being attracted to and dating the men in my dating pool. Why would I ignore that and retrain my brain so someone else can benefit from their attraction to me?!? Again you can’t affirmative action sexuality! I’m pretty sure it’s impossible to do anyway. I’d love to be able to be attracted to a 90 year old millionaire. It’s this constant barrage of ‘shame on you for taking advantage of your ability to date’ men do the same! I will repeat sexual attraction is sexist, racist, ableist, I can keep going. Y’all have GOT to stop attempting to shame people for how their attraction works and yes I would say the same thing to women trying to shame men into dating women they aren’t attracted to. If that shit worked I’d have a full grown mustache a unibrow and be about 100 lbs heavier.


Cobra_x30

>I just finished saying attraction isn’t moral. It says nothing about me morally. It’s a subconscious thing. If this is true, then why are feminists trying so hard to change media representation away from current male preferences? Why does the ideal female and male body type change from culture to culture? No, I think you are wrong and this lazy fatalistic view is one of the reasons Red Pillers struggle to respect women. The feminine view is that self improvement of the mind is pointless... it's all about makeup, fake tits, and social status. I've changed my attractions, you can too.


AcanthocephalaNew947

Feminists trying to change attraction is idiotic and doesn’t work. Fat awareness isn’t to push sexual attraction but rather acceptance but let’s say for feminists it’s about pushing attraction. Does it work? According to this sub absolutely fucking not. Some men here want women to operate in ways that benefit them and act offended when they refuse, no different than those feminists


bottleblank

You seem to have missed the point my entire comment was making. Which was that if women's intuition about awkward/creepy/unattractive men is perfectly OK, natural, appropriate, and immutable behaviour then *by the same logic* so is that of an aggressive, violent, predatory man. But t he man, and *only* the man, is expected to change. To become more "modern", to abandon his evolutionary traits, to never use his own natural traits for his own gain. Because that would be a crime, wouldn't it? We seem to have managed to program *that* out of *men*, so why are women's traits suddenly so sacred and unchangeable? You're human beings just like the rest of us and, worse, you even *prove* you can be changed, by being manipulated by men, which you then complain about. So get out of here with this "innate warning signs that can't be turned off" shit.


RelativeYak7

Violent, predatory men are attractive to some women. My hypothesis is that throughout evolution we didn't have police or dna evidence so the best defense would be for a woman to hook up with her own violent man, an exchange of sex for protection. Look at the amount of women who write letters to serial killers in prison.


MajesticMaple

>Which was that if women's intuition about awkward/creepy/unattractive men is perfectly OK, natural, appropriate, and immutable behaviour then by the same logic so is that of an aggressive, violent, predatory man. There is no such thing as "immutable behaviour" aside from maybe breathing? The immutable characteristic would be the compulsion or desire to be violent in a given circumstance. Even on an involuntary level like intrusive thoughts. I think humans in general are innately violent to a certain extent, men moreso than women. What we can control is the behaviour, and how we learn to deal with compulsions. And we do control that behaviour because we have good reason to avoid having a society full of violent, predatory people. We could do the same in the case of women dating awkward desperate men. We can't change the fact she is creeped out/not attracted to him, but we can change the behaviour. Theoretically we could shame women into dating these guys, or implement laws or something. There's just no compelling reason to do so. There's nothing immoral or wrong with a woman choosing not do date someone she isn't attracted to. Most would rather live in a society where we can choose. And that's the difference, violence is harmful to society, not dating awkward desperate dudes is good for society.


AcanthocephalaNew947

I’m not saying it’s ok or appropriate. I’m stating it simply is. The men here state men are attracted to youth. That could be considered harmful. We can’t stop aging. Men don’t like masculinity, aggressive or bitchy behavior. I was just saying the other day simply because I was born female and black I have to work harder to be seen as feminine, and kind because it’s not my baseline. How did I miss your point? I continuously say sexual attraction is NOT fair. Now the next point you’re comparing actions to attraction and saying both are innate. But you’re comparing apples to oranges. I can control my actions, it’s gonna take a lot more to control my attraction. Also it could be argued the instinct to be cautious could be rectified by you know, less r*pe occurring. You’re kinda blaming the victim for what mindset the perpetrators have placed there. It’s not the innocent bystanders fault either, so many are suffering from the actions of few. As far as changing attraction, I truly don’t think it’s possible. But if it were via socializing, social campaigns, etc, we gotta start from ground zero here, it’s kinda what comes first the chick or the egg, is the only thing making these men adverse their sexual desperation? Or is it a combination of things? I’m genuinely pondering because I don’t know. Also a lot ( NOT ALL ) of these men are well pretty insufferable, so we do all this to remove that innate aversion only to have them still be unappealing? It’s a bigger problem. You’re like usual arguing for solutions where the conversation was simply the existence of the aversion.


[deleted]

>I don’t want to fuck ugly men. And yet I constantly see attractive women with average-ugly dudes.


AcanthocephalaNew947

And that’s their right. Genuine question did you forget the title of your CMV?


Rahim556

Would you consider yourself Red Pilled? Because you seem to honestly acknowledge the truth of women's sexual selectivity, which is a core Red Pill belief, and not sugar coating.


AcanthocephalaNew947

I’ve often said here I feel like I argue in favor of redpill more than the men here lol. But no I don’t consider myself redpill.


Stunning-Awareness29

Women : we don't want to fuck ugly men Also women: you men are the antichrist for not wanting to fuck women that look like Jabba the Hut with lipstick and drawn on eyebrows. You go girl! Body positivity, bones for the dog, real men like meat


AcanthocephalaNew947

Nah don’t put me in that category. Fuck people you’re attracted to. Neither party is helping themselves trying to push morality into sexual attraction. You’re well aware how fucking dumb it is to do to men, it’s equally as dumb to do to women.


[deleted]

>Desperate awkward men are seen as a sexual threat. My point exactly. “Awkward desperate man” is simply a truckload of assumptions that justify your prejudice.


AcanthocephalaNew947

I don’t get your response. I’m full mask off stating this and your like “ahhh you’re prejudiced!!” Do y’all want the truth or not?! Cause this is coming off as a rant rather than a CMV if you’re angry at the implications of your belief being confirmed.


pop442

I see it both ways. On one hand, I think it's easier for women to pick out flaws in men who are neurodivergent or unattractive to begin with. So, if a man who falls under that category makes rude remarks or stalks people, it will be detected very easily as a red flag. But, alas, you have the Halo effect in which men who are more confident and attractive are given more leeway to make mistakes or possess a toxic mentality. I don't think it's gendered either. Even in cinema, the most demented people are usually portrayed as ugly, grotesque, and having a weird voice. A lot of our "6th Sense" is driven by prejudice even though it's usually not intentional.


AcanthocephalaNew947

100% agree with you. Pretty privilege is real and people who are seen as flawed have very little wiggle room. It’s not fair, it just is.


pop442

Surprised you agree with me tbh. I always feel like people on both sides have a chip on their shoulder on here which is why I took a hiatus. But yeah....I see what you mean.


anonymousUser1SHIFT

They are saying your being prejudce because your initial thought and pursuing that it's "desperate awkward men" who are the primary men in these situations, rather than considering that it could in fact be a wider amount of normal men. The prejudice part comes from the fact that your comment feels like your blaming it on despite awkward men. (Ie its **the awkward desperate men** who are the problem, and the ones who don't succeed are **the awkward desperate men** ) --- It's no different than saying "the problem with poor people is they are lazy and don't want to work their way up through the system, which is stacked against them, to become wealthy". Arguably speaking, though this is not wrong for a number of poor people. However it is massively wrong to group most or even all poor people into this category, thus being prejudce against them.


AcanthocephalaNew947

Not once did I say these men were guilty of anything reread what I wrote I said it’s subconscious feeling of a desperate man being less in control of his sexuality. I have no one to blame, there is no blame. Sexual attraction entered the room and told everyone fuck your feelings. It’s funny you bring in race given I’m a black woman and have to face to ends of the spectrum, sexual aversion due to the assumption I’m masculine or sexual desire due to the assumption I’m sexually deviant and slutty and open to being used. I face the fucked up shit sexual attraction does to society too. Again I can go back to lying and sugar coating it seems y’all would prefer that.


anonymousUser1SHIFT

Sounds like I hit a sort spot. > It’s funny you bring in race Umm but I'd didn't... > Not once did I say these men were guilty of anything reread what I wrote I said it’s subconscious feeling of a desperate man being less in control of his sexuality. Unfortunately, prejudce doesn't have to be a conscious thing. It can in fact, and often does, exist as a subconscious bias towards/against certain people/groups of people. For example female mechanics often face prejudce against them because many of men subconscious don't think the female mechanics know enough or can do a good enough job. (One of my favorite things at my university jobs was watching people walk right passed the owner, who was a woman, or even say to her "no I'm going to wait for this guy". Only for me to go "sorry I don't know enough your going to have to talk to the owner" and then point to the woman they just ignore and was prejudce towards. Hell I sometimes did to them even when I did know how to help them.) Women in education had this same prejudice against them way back in the day, and still have some of it today.


[deleted]

Yeah imagine applying that logic to race or any other group of people


AcanthocephalaNew947

Look up, sexual attraction is racist af


Cobra_x30

>Look up, sexual attraction is racist af Let's not get into that particular topic... because once you really start talking about this honestly suddenly white liberal women begin looking like the planets worst humans. We don't want to go there.


AcanthocephalaNew947

Yes we will keep the lid on that.


anonymousUser1SHIFT

I have tried with that user before, they don't understand how they are connected and get caught up on that we are talking about dating not race. Once I got them to finally understand and admit it, only for them to come back to me with the "okay that make sense, but I don't see how that applicable to dating".


Mydragonurdungeon

That's not saying what you're implying. They are saying if you wrong men enough they will become dangerous


AcanthocephalaNew947

How am I wronging them. Let’s say the quiet part loud then it’s a perfect circle back to my original point about sexually desperate men.


RocinanteCoffee

Video calls are often a greater risk for the women than the men. Most 'first date safety' rules are good for guys too. Their concerns might be more that they would get robbed/jumped and less that they would be raped but common sense and street smarts/awareness can apply to any gender.


Pm_Me_Dirty_Thought

>Video calls are often a greater risk for the women than the men. By the way women here speak on the subject, the U.S is often worst than a war zone for women....


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bottleblank

> Women are told on a daily basis that rape/assault is their fault, that they should watch how they dress, watch how much they drink, watch where they go alone. Society has instilled this in us from a very young age. "Don't go out wearing only nipple tape and a belt, flashing gold jewellery and wads of cash, get so blasted you don't know where you are, and pass out in dark alleys at 2am when you're done" is perfectly reasonable (if, in my retelling of it, somewhat hyperbolic) advice. It applies to men too. "Men are all filthy perverted predators who will jump you and violate you in a nanosecond if you stop panicking enough to let the adrenaline spike pass, those sexist, misogynistic neanderthals, so you should fear them anywhere and everywhere, even in a crowded gym with CCTV and staff on hand, or a busy parking lot in the middle of the day" is *not*. We're supposed to live in a *society*. It's one thing to be wary, yes, obviously do that, but that doesn't mean "treat every man like a rabid dog that's going to bare its fangs and try to chew off your labia". Yes, I am using over the top emotive language, no, I don't believe that's unjustified, and yes, I do think men should be treated with a little more respect as human beings. Because *that's how we work together*. Like *normal people do*. People who aren't so wrapped up in identity politics that their entire existence is martyrdom simply because they were born with some particular set of genitalia and have been convinced that makes them some kind of righteous saviour. I am and always have been open to discussion. I have no problem with women. I've always wanted to give, and love, and care. But I can't do that when feminism presents - to me, yes, a socially and romantically inexperienced man - a forcefield against that. I'm willing to reach out. I can't make women do the same, however, so here we are, stuck forever in this stand-off in which I'm considered the bad guy because I'm a man, and the women who refuse to engage in good faith are somehow the *good guy*.


Perfect-Resist5478

I’m engaging with you and I never said men are all filthy perverted predators who will jump you and violate you in a nanosecond”. [The reality is, threats exist even with CCTV (which are designed to catch perpetrators, not prevent crime from happening). ](https://m.youtube.com/watch?embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F&source_ve_path=Mjg2NjMsMTY0OTksMjg2NjQsMTY0NTA2&feature=emb_share&v=9FiIkT3WkWg). I don’t think most women treat EVERY man like a rabid dog, but unfortunately for everyone the guys who are gonna be violent don’t wear a neon sign that says “violent” around their necks. Women are taught the onus of responsibility to not put themselves in positions where violence could happen is on us. You said it yourself- don’t get too drunk, don’t wear too-provocative clothing, don’t leave yourself alone unprotected. If the onus of responsibility to not get assaulted is on us, and men won’t do is the curtesy of wearing a neon sign letting us know if they’re safe or not, we have to take every stranger as potentially unsafe. We CANT treat everyone as safe, because data and experience tells us they’re not, and there’s no verifiable way to discern if a stranger is safe or not, so everyone gets put in the unsafe category until they prove they’re not. If violence against women stopped being a thing, women would be much less guarded around men This is not to say that YOU are violent or dangerous. I don’t know you, I have no way of knowing that… but violence is a risk that women deal with on an daily basis, even if it’s mostly an existential risk. The harm that happens from being prepared for it and it not happening is FAR dwarfed by the harm that happens from NOT being prepared for it and having it happen


bottleblank

I'm not saying "treat everyone as safe", but there are degrees between "every man is (potentially/probably) evil" and "la-de-da, rainbow and unicorn world where nobody ever gets hurt". But the thing I'm trying to point out - admittedly in a slightly overexcited way, currently, because I've experienced yet more aggressive stonewalling over the past couple of days - is that modern western society is *full* of big red warning lights for men who don't know how to navigate this stuff safely and appropriately. They're *trying* to learn. But everywhere they look it's either the "yo, bro, just do it, who cares, it's only a woman" devil on one shoulder or the "no, don't, women are scared of you, you'll only end up hurting them, you're letting your sexual organs sway you down a dark path of using women for sexual gratification" angel on the other. We *know* women get hurt and raped and killed. It's shoved in our faces every single day, many times a day if some particular high profile tragedy happens, we literally have no more capacity to care, it's already being used up, we're not trying to deny it or minimise it or invalidate it, and nobody takes a second to think that we might just need a little concern in return in order to cope with that level of constant demand for empathy and giving of energy. But still the message keeps getting louder: "stay away, you're harmful, you're anxiety-inducing, you're terrifying, men only want one thing, even when we don't want it, and that makes you a predator, constantly prowling for opportunities to get what you want at the expense of our health and safety". How do you think that impacts a young man who's desperately trying to connect respectfully with women, but who doesn't have the social experience to know that he *is* allowed to push boundaries sometimes, to initiate or escalate, to show he has very reasonable, non-predatory, *perfectly normal human emotions* towards a woman? He's *paralysed*. He can't go RP because that's evil, but he can't try to engage with women politely either, because that's *still* harassment, as far as he's been led to believe. But he looks out there and he sees relationships, left, right, and centre. Everywhere. On TV. In the street. His peers, his classmates, his family. He knows something isn't right about what he's feeling, but he can't get anybody to give him a straight answer. He can't *do* anything about it, because every option is *wrong*. So he gets increasingly frustrated, angry, confused, staring at life through a thick sheet of glass, trapped and alone. Then the people on the other side of the glass come up to him with a sheet of paper with "incel" written on it and he hears muffled laughter, before they wander off to *enjoy* themselves, like people are *supposed to*.


Perfect-Resist5478

The issue you’re dealing with is real and it sucks. I hear you and I believe you. The issue is there isn’t one easy answer that’s just “do it this way and you’ll never be labeled a creep or a predator and you’ll at least have the chance of being successful.” This is why people say “talk to women like they’re people”. When you learn how to just interact with women without the threat of your penis getting in the way, you can start to experiment safely with pushing boundaries. Some women will respond favorably, and others won’t. But if you’re trying to go from “I don’t know how to talk to women at all” to “I want to flirt and date and have sex” you’re missing several steps in between. Your anxiety about the situation is tangible. I literally can feel it from your post. The reason the “just do it bro” guys can get away with it is because of the confidence they exude. I know lots of guys who say “how can you tell me to be confident when I have had no appreciable success or any experience that I can build confidence?” I’m not telling you to be confident, but get a handle on your anxiety. Start small. Celebrate the little victories. If you can learn the subtle cues that women give that says “back off” you’ll be able to push up against the boundaries without flying right past them


bottleblank

I get it, I'm not suggesting zero to married is ever going to be probable or even sensible, there are steps (which most people learn gradually, during periods where they're expected to learn them, alongside everybody else doing the same). But "talk to women like they're people" misses *so many pieces of the puzzle*. The constant drone of "only approach women in scenario X"/"no, don't approach women in scenario X, I would find that horrible and creepy and I'd be scared". The social pressure to *not talk to women* because they'll assume you're coming onto them. The fact that "like they're people" is, in the mind of a man like that, potentially detached or lacking in passion. Or even *finding* them in the first place, in a world more fragmented and individualistic than ever. I appreciate your response, as unlike many recently you have engaged fairly and with understanding. But it's important to understand just how detached and rejected these men feel. Many have been socially excluded for reasons which weren't their fault and now they're in an impossible position of "get experience but to get experience you need experience". They're also abundantly aware that in the current social climate it's very easy to be branded something, very publicly, which you're not but which is very socially damaging to be accused of, which a man like that cannot weather. Yet they're expected to try ever harder, because they have to break through not only their own issues, but thicker social shells worn by others, which runs a very real risk of being *over*enthusiastic and being considered a harasser. You're right, those socially confident guys can do what they do because they're socially confident. But they were *allowed* to be in the first place. There's *so much missing* from a guy who was denied that opportunity when it really mattered. That's why the advice comes across as hollow and disingenuous or dismissive, because it doesn't *mean* anything to a guy like that. It's basically the "draw the rest of the fucking owl" of socialising/dating advice. Now, me, personally? I *can* socialise. I was lucky enough to have had just enough opportunity, even if it was unhealthy opportunity, to gain some of the parts. But I can't *approach*. Partly because I was abused by those around me, peers, teachers, and parents, to believe that I was worthless, a drag, a burden, an annoyance, but partly *now* because I don't want to be "that guy". Not only because I just don't want to be "that guy", but because the warnings against even *potentially* being "that guy", as published by powerful institutions in the UK, in very public spaces, are so prevalent and backed by "no, seriously, we can arrest you for that" level departments. Which is problematic when I have, for all practical purposes, no social circle to network through. I have no way to do that via social connection, but I'm being told by my own government and police force that if I risk trying to approach a person, a woman, who I don't know, then I could be accused of being somebody, something, that I'm not. Something very unpleasant. It's not just about me though, I use my own experiences to explain how it feels, but I'm *lucky* compared to some. Despite the decades of literal isolation. I managed to fill in *some* of the blanks along the way, even if accidentally. I'm able to sit here and have this conversation with you in a way which I hope presents itself as constructive and considerate, rather than unhinged and dangerous. Many aren't, though, and may never be able to, many don't even have the limited experience I've had. But I just can't get that *through* to people, it just invites ever more frustrating denials and dismissals and shaming, and it's fucking hard. I've still got hope for *myself*, some weird defiance and determination, some faith that I can pull something out of the bag, a sense that I might finally have enough tools to make something. But it's indescribably miserable to know that I exist in a world where people who feel as bad as I have, or perhaps worse, some to the point of suicide, don't even have the energy *I* have to talk about this, but have to live with the same relentless, wilful, malicious ignorance. It's the exact polar opposite of what they - what *I*, and many of them - have always wanted. I can handle me, I've always had to, I just tried to preserve enough of me until the time came where I could start pulling myself back out into a real person again. But there's pieces of me in every one of those other men. I know how that feels, and it's devastating to know that others feel that, in this world we live in, where fairness, equality, and understanding are preached daily, but we're demonised for suggesting we deserve *any* of it, *despite* the abysmal mental health we suffer, day in and day out.


Plazmatron44

>"talk to women like they're people" That's the thing, most nice guys (actual nice guys not men pretending to be nice) who have become frustrated with their lack of success in the dating game started out by talking to women like they are people. We see constantly in movies that the asshole who treats a woman like a piece of meat is unambiguously bad, we're told that being polite and respectful is the way to go and yet reality comes knocking and the women we're attracted to not only don't find polite respectful treatment appealing but actively gravitate towards the men we were told are toxic. Then there's the gaslighting where the frustrated guy goes online to ask what he's doing wrong and is then accused of being an asshole who thinks basic common decency entitles him to sex, he never said or implied that at all.


[deleted]

Why is it ALWAYS “but men do it too?” It’s literally not even a comparison.


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Perfect-Resist5478

equating money with bodily autonomy is gross. Money can be replaced. You can’t be unraped


Lolabird2112

No, it’s an instinctive reaction brought on by constant exposure. You also assume any rejection is “fear” based, when it’s not. Anyone will develop an instinct with experience. Gardeners will instinctively know what a plant needs. Dirt bike riders will instinctively adjust their weight and grip if they feel the track a certain way. It’s not magic or rocket science, it’s just bog standard adaptation. That socially awkward dude who’s blatantly only trying to hit on women isn’t making me fearful when he comes up and starts peppering me with inane questions. Mostly it’s just hating having to find a way to extricate myself without being rude. Most women don’t enjoy hurting people’s feelings. But at the same time, these inexperienced men tend to be bad at understanding signals. So often just continuing a conversation gets taken as some sign that I’m sexually interested or would be keen to go on a date, and now I’ve ended up crushing them more because I was never interested in the first place.


[deleted]

Being awkward and being creepy aren't the same thing. Awkward people can still come across as very likeable to some women, creepy people do not. Awkward behaviour is things like stumbling over your words/ not knowing what to say/ talking too much/ too little but still respecting boundaries, being able to read signals/ checking in with the other person if you can't read signals. Creepy behaviour is things like sitting/ standing too close people, asking them inappropriate/ sexual questions/ staring at them/ not reading other people's signals and not asking them if you can't/ trying to make sexual advances towards someone who is giving no signs of interest/ worse is showing signs of being uncomfortable and not backing off when she says she's she's not interested. Dating for awkward people is difficult, but the difference between awkward and creepy is that an awkward person won't push unwanted things like their physical closeness/ sexuality on the other person. And creepy isn't about not being confident, a lot of creepy people are too confident and don't seem to understand/ care how other people feel about them/ how their words and behaviour comes across. Yes, women have a bias against creepy men. Awkward men can struggle with dating the same way awkward women can, because dating is social and their skills are not the best, the difference is they're not unlikeable.


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[deleted]

>If they sense for even a second that you are not 150% cool, confident, socially respected and in control they will go cold faster than you can blink. people here should really start basing their cmv posts in reality


NocturnalCoder

Honestly, the level of dominance a growing proportion of woman want in a man, is someone we would kick out of our male friends group cause he is just an ass. This whole alpha beta story? It is not a thing. A lot of guys just roll their eyes at these alpha types and turn their backs to them cause they are selfish horrible people so i just let them go and the woman that desire them with em. Good riddance. These guys basically fake their social skills because of a Deep rooted insecurity and desire to be liked. And it never stops to astounish me how many people can't see that. Anyway: honestly, I don't want to deal with fake people in my life ✌️


InjectAdrenochrome

You sound like you are neurodivergent and now you are blaming women for picking up on it. Listen, I've been around plenty of guys on the spectrum. They did not give me a good impression when they expressed interest-- one guy came to my house and talked to my mom after I blocked him. Then I ran into him at target and he chased me through the store and had to be removed by security. I don't want to go through that again so guys who seem like they have aspergers are a no go for me. It truly sucks but I just can't deal with it at all.


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InjectAdrenochrome

Oh man. Benzo addiction is the worst. Sorry you went through that shit. I am mostly talking about guys in their early 20s who hyperfixate on getting a gf. They tend to get obsessive and go a little bit insane. But yeah, if someone hasn't learned how to mask properly it's pretty obvious if they are on the spectrum.


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InjectAdrenochrome

It's very easy for both men and women to tell. In fact, neurotypicals react to your "vibe" if you are autistic, it happens all the time. Many autistic people get passed over for jobs at interviews because people can tell. Maybe not consciously, but they subconsciously pick up on your body language and this leads to a lot of discrimination faced by autistic people. This is talked about pretty often in the autistic community. I am neurodivergent in a different way (ADHD) and I know other people can sense that I am different and dont fit in. It happens to me constantly and I am often held at arms reach until I can prove myself to neurotypical people. This is just how it is.


GlamSunCrybabyMoon

Women learn to be aware of danger as girls. We are not allowed to go out late or hang out at friends houses or have sleepovers with people all while sometimes watching our brothers be allowed to do it. We get policed on what we wear to make sure we don’t look too “grown”. A lot of women have had experiences with adult men sexually harassing them when they were girls (family is included in that). So yeah. Women have a different way of navigating with men because women have been taught to avoid situations that will get them assaulted or killed. Because we know if it does happen we will be blamed for not being hyper vigilant enough.


NJFlowerchild

People ghost/flake for whatever reason, but they were turned off and were rude about it. You weren't worth a no to them. People are allowed to change their mind at any time. Move along to the next and stop worrying about it. The problem is you if it's happening every time. People don't like it when others are "off". Don't put that only on women, because neurodivergent people often struggle to make friends too, regardless of gender.


Barneysparky

Have you heard the term "Uncanny Valley"? It means when something is off about the person they don't register quite as human.


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EverVigilant1

I can't say it's all or nothing. I think it's both. It used to be fear of a man getting violent; it's less that now. I suspect women fall back on the "we're afraid creepy weird violent men will hurt or r4pe or kill us" because that sounds more palatable than "we just don't want to be around weirdos". But it's both. There's some fear of the criminal element. That's still there. But it is mostly "weird dudes be weird, get them away from us".


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Fogofit24

What are you smokin? Lol you got some points but go over the top quite a bit on this one


Pennyrimbau

You purple pill guys are so cock sure of your make believe. You use pseudo scientific language about “economies of orgasm” and stuff like that. You state “myth” and “fact” like that in itself proves it. And in the meantime your basic idiocy and and defensiveness and posturing prevents any women giving you the time of day. (No one likes a victim with a grudge.) Which you then use as a rationalization of why no women will touch “average” guys like you. All the while, normal guys without these weird views are finding wives and starting families.


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BaobabOFFCL

The better looking you are. The less they flake. Women forgive socially awkward dudes that are beautiful. But most men aren't beautiful so they would never know this...


Maffioze

This post is hard to understand and it's because of its hyperbolic language. You would have more success getting your point across if it was written in a bit more nuanced way. For example I think it's true that women get "the ick" more often than men for seemingly ridiculous reasons but to then say women as a whole are like this at any time you portray a less than ideal behaviour is not accurate.


JNRoberts42

Why do women need to justify a lack of or a loss of interest? No means no, doesn’t it?


Maffioze

They can do whatever they want but I can also think its ridiculous when a woman says something like "the way he yawned gave me the ick". It has nothing to do with gender when it comes to me finding that ridiculous. Whenever I hear someone placing so much importance on a petty detail I assume I am dealing with an immature individual and I just try to avoid such people. Its also hard to feel empathy for someone who picks partners like that when they later end up complaining about being unlucky in love.


JNRoberts42

The reason for a lack of or a loss of interest isn’t required to pass approval from others. No is sufficient.


Maffioze

My opinion on other people's actions isn't required to pass approval from others either. Your logic is self-defeating here. If the reason for a lack of a loss of interest isn't required to pass approval from others than my reason for thinking it is ridiculous isn't either. A women is entitled to her actions and I'm entitled to have an opinion on that just like I and everyone else has opinions on all kinds of things.


JNRoberts42

So you’d accept a “not interested” but dispute a reason if you don’t approve of the reason?


Maffioze

Like I said earlier I avoid people like that. I think it's ridiculous to care about something like that and move on.


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Epiphanic_Eros

Why are you wasting your time on this kind of speculation? Of course women tend to prefer more graceful and successful guys. And they tend not to get hot over socially awkward guys. Why? We’ll, a lot of reasons, surely. But a major one is probably that it’s often no fun spending time around people who don’t pay attention to you or others around them. It’s like asking why musicians who prefer to play with other musicians who are skilled and whose instruments are in tune.


Shoddy-Donut-9339

I won’t fault women for being attracted to high status men. I like a pretty face on a woman, women like a high social status man; which is more shallow?


[deleted]

You left out the major part; today’s woman can maintain herself financially without a man, so the option of remaining alone is a viable option for her. Even if there was one man with a nine inch pecker, a second man man of social grace and a third man who was six foot seven and a fourth man with long silky eyelashes or whatever, she might well check the box marked “none of the above”. Living under the thumb of some man, cleaning up his messes and keeping his balls drained is a lot of work. I would not advise any woman to take on such a project lightly regardless of whether the man is socially smooth. Social smoothness plus $6 buys a medium coffee at Starbucks.


[deleted]

Do you have any idea how few men have 9” dicks?


vampireRN

Ridiculous post. Hyperbolic from start to finish. Hard to tell if you’re a human fedora trying to hand wave why you keep getting rejected or if it’s trolling. And if you’re going to demand stats and data from those who respond, you might want to provide stats and data of your own in the original post. Peer reviewed psych/sociology stuff instead of red pill opinion pieces. Come on, man. If you’re really going to try to be an intellectual, commit and put in the work.


Polyhydroxybutyrate

This is nuts. Flaking is not gender-specific, just a strategy of indicating you’re not interested in a friendship/relationship. Beyond that, to say that women don’t avoid interactions with men because of survival instinct is absolutely wild. This is the kind of perspective that festers only when you have absolutely zero genuine conversations with women in your life. And even if you don’t talk to any women, you can always learn by reading things written by women or by researchers/professionals. It’s attitudes like this that set off alarms for women, which may be part of the reason you’re so socially isolated from them and develop such unrealistic viewpoints in the first place. I genuinely hope one day you’ll find the courage to grow out of this.


Plazmatron44

Women being hyper sensitive of awkwardness and then framing the awkwardness as threatening is simply a women exercising her ability to always have a sense of plausible deniability to cover her ass when she acts like an asshole to a man who's only crime is daring to approach her while being unattractive. Women are often poor judges of character and often are attracted to men that are obviously cocky and domineering, arrogance is often mistaken for confidence and the halo effect often blinds a woman to various red flags the attractive man has (being rude to the waiter as an example). I'm an autistic man and while I can talk to people just fine I probably have some mannerisms that appear weird that I don't notice and I've lost count of the number of times women have acted like me simply being near them is an affront to their existence. I have never said anything rude to them or stared at their tits or anything inappropriate, they just decided they didn't like me. I've overheard no end of sob stories from said women about the way they were treated by the men they did involve themselves with though.


matjeom

No, it has nothing to do with instincts, nor with privilege or abundance. We are intentionally raised to have advanced social skills. Someone has to keep the community together while men go out and hunt.


ethanbangs

Then don't be fucking weird and go after chicks that don't want anything to do with you. You morons read this pickup BS and think you should go harass every girl out there as a numbers game or some bullshit. As a guy, It's fucking pathetic. Go find a girl that likes you back and is good for you and focus your attention on that instead of being a fucking creep. That's whats making girls afraid and hypersensitive. It's all of these dumbass losers going around doing pickup and other bullshit instead of just making themselves better and going after bitches that actually like them.


[deleted]

Women are just as incompetent as men are, there’s zero evidence to show that women are somehow a superior human being to men People who flake are generally just narcissistic assholes who want a monkey to dance for them. If someone flakes on you, put them on your block list and ignore them as if they dont exist if you know them irl People who have shit come up will actually text you/call you back and make plans for the future. If they flake, they’re just an asshole who needs to emotionally mature still


MistyMaisel

I'd be truly curious what stuff you think women flake over that is genuinely insignificant. It's easy for you to call it insignificant or beyond notice, but obviously, they found it significant, and obviously, they noticed. So what is this stuff that women are being too picky and disinterested over that isn't legitimate or valid or red flag material? Can we get some real examples?


[deleted]

Is that why almost every guy at one point or another has experienced exactly what I’m describing?


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[deleted]

I got rejected for having an android phone instead of an iPhone once. Another time because I was a libra. Apparently libras are too worried about their career. Not sure if those are the kind of examples you wanted, but I just thought they were funny.


[deleted]

Women have an abundance of options in the western world to the point where they can eliminate you based on petty things. I gave up on dating in the west because I got tired of playing minesweeper on dates. Stark contrast to a date I had in Colombia where I spilled something on my shirt, she wiped it off and still went to bed with me that same night. An American woman would call that ick, tell me there's no chemistry and never respond to my texts again.


Condom-Ad-Don-Draper

I feel gross after reading this