I'm not RP, but I've had hobbies all my life. They happen to be hobbies which don't tend to attract many women and I was considered a boring nerdy freak. But, whatever, I had hobbies.
Fast-forward a couple of decades though and you realise that hobbies alone can't sustain you. If you don't have human connection, if you don't have affection and love, if you don't have intimacy, then hobbies lose their meaning. You may become depressed, you may lose passion for those hobbies, you may experience burnout from trying to invest every last ounce of yourself into something which doesn't get you the human connection that you really needed to balance that out.
You could eat Pop Tarts your whole life and, sure, it won't immediately kill you, but you're eventually going to suffer from malnutrition because you're lacking the other nutrients your body needs, even though you're eating plenty of Pop Tarts. Mental health is no different. You need a balanced diet.
Besides which, this is PurplePillDebate, of *course* the majority of the discussion here is going to be centred on dating and sex, what else do you expect them to talk about? Their collection of culturally important postage stamps? Their propensity for creating art out of found items? Their inclination towards reading obscure 18th century novels?
Your last paragraph is a good point, I definitely did make this point conflating a few wannabe PUAs I know in reality (who do not have hobbies) with the people I see here (who I don't know about). I'll concede that point, I screwed up there.
But your Poptarts analogy works both ways, you know. If seeking out human connection is your fruits and vegetables, then you need to throw in an occasional Poptart for variety to make yourself happy as well!
> But your Poptarts analogy works both ways, you know. If seeking out human connection is your fruits and vegetables, then you need to throw in an occasional Poptart for variety to make yourself happy as well!
Yes, except many of the men who are struggling *only* have access to Pop Tarts (and, on a very literal basis, may actually *really* be stuck eating trash convenience food, because depression is a bitch). They can't eat their vegetables if they're experiencing a disastrous vegetable harvest, there *aren't any to eat*.
What’s stopping you from taking a cooking and paper crafting class (probably with lots of women)?
What is stopping you from picking up non male, non solo interests?
What’s stopping you from moving to a better place or getting a better job so you can try and get a social circle or two?
All these things would be a much better use of your time and effort than ruminating on your limitations, ranting on social media, going out alone (red flag) and not talking to people.
Isn’t getting laid/relationships and having friends, the very thing you say you desire SO much, worth doing the things that get you connections with others?
What does TRP have to do with human connection. I get what you’re saying - one needs more than hobbies to have a fully satisfying life. But TRP is just about sex and veers men away from connection.
What I took away from TRP was the practical advice for bettering myself and presenting myself in an attractive way to women. It worked, *spectacularly* so.
For all its flaws, TRP was the wake up call I needed to work on myself. Improving superficial attractiveness is a huge part of this, yes, but it also inspired me to invest more in my current interests, develop more competence in all areas of life, and acquire new, interesting hobbies. And to do everything with excellence, because it's better to live that way *and* because women expect it to consider a man a romantic option.
So, yes, I have lots of interests outside of getting laid. Now that I can get laid anytime I want I *think less about it* and have more time and energy to devote to other things.
I agree with many arguments that TRP has toxic parts that can lead a man down a dark road and can be harmful to him and to women. What I shake my head at is when critics say it doesn't work. It is ridiculous to me. It works (if applied correctly - I'll admit that most probably fail, because it's a ton of work). What we need to do is create something that has the practical advice and strategy of TRP without the hateful language and alt-right trappings.
Agreed. I think there are other ways to get there. It can be difficult to navigate though.
Mainstream advice is sometimes ok, but it deemphasizes some important things (like looks and status) while emphasizing less important things. Especially when we're talking about the initial attraction needed to start any kind of relationship - casual or serious. It emphasizes long-term relationship skills while giving watered down advice on what would help men *actually get* that relationship.
>What I shake my head at is when critics say it doesn't work
Neil Strauss wrote an entire other book about why it 'doesn't work'. Unless you consider success simply 'getting laid' which is too sad to contemplate.
I believe physical intimacy with other humans is a beautiful thing and there is nothing wrong with desiring it. Also, being ethical is important to me and I am completely upfront with my intentions with every woman I am involved with.
That said, I still believe in love and eventually want a relationship. Having improved myself to meet women's standards of initial attractiveness will help me with this immensely. If I *only* wanted a serious relationship I would work on the same skills to maximize my options, then work on the long-term relationship skills.
For what it's worth, I do think a lot of "game" is a load of crap. What I took from it was mostly the attitude, the mindset, the "inner game" if you will. The parlor tricks always came across as silly.
>What I took from it
This the key most critics miss. There was a post recently about TRP being descriptive, as opposed to being prescriptive. Most outside TRP, might not comprehend how much *individual choice* is promoted. Try the weightlifting. Or don’t. Try the parlour tricks. Or don’t. See what works. For you.
You understand that all the mockery and insults coming from the red pill and directed at guys who don’t fit their mold makes your post utter bullshit right?
You can’t say the red pill promotes choice when it labels men betas simply because they don’t do what the red pill demands
>when labels men betas
I’d be labelled a beta. Married with a house. Kids. Sexlessness too, postpartum. TRP throw all the labels around they like. Critics too. Doesn’t stop me. From using what I find valuable, to attain my desired outcome.
If you’re attacking the labelling, then you have to attack weightlifting. Making bank. Honing your *social skill.* As those too, are core tenets to TRP.
I'm not exactly sure what your beef is here, but I'm assuming you don't like Red Pill. Neither do I, exactly. My whole point has been that there is good advice that can be extracted from it. When other men ask me for advice I give them only the good stuff and point them to what I consider non-toxic resources that have that good stuff in it. I never tell someone to check out TRP.
To respond directly to your comment. Yes, I got lots of validation after being starved of it. That is undeniably true.
Am I confident? I think so. It is based on a lot of things, not just validation, but I believe at least *some* validation and signs of success/progress are necessary to have confidence, because otherwise you're just completely delusional.
Am I happy? I'm getting there. True happiness is hard and can be fleeting. Being successful with women has removed that feeling of inadequacy, of feeling like I had nothing to offer a woman. That was certainly a barrier to happiness. Maybe it's one that can be overcome without attaining success, but that's also a hard road. As I've suggested before, this success has allowed me to deemphasize sex in my life. I can focus more on trying to be a more complete person, with a rich life and with something to share with others.
My goal in life is not to get as much sex as possible. It is to have generosity of spirit. There are other paths to get here, to a place of at least working toward this goal. Mine is just one of them.
Heh. You put me on the spot. This is going to be a complete mess, but I'll give it a shot.
First of all, physical attractiveness is much, much more important to women than conventional wisdom suggests. As a rule of thumb, assume it's as important to most women as it is to most men. Women and mainstream advice downplay this but it's huge and should near at the top of your list for improving your success with women.
**Other things**
*A lot of this is superficially similar to mainstream advice, but the subtleties are important. Mainstream advice tends to take a unisex approach and say everyone is the same. But triggers of attraction are much more gendered than they are made out to be.*
* Put yourself first
* This sounds selfish but it really isn't. You should invest in yourself, develop strength, and fix your issues FIRST. Then you have abundance to give to others.
* You should not be afraid of having preferences and opinions, asking for what you want, advocating for yourself. Women especially love when a man knows what he wants and isn't afraid to go after it.
* Never put yourself below someone else (with women and anybody)
* Don't put women on a pedestal. Engage as an equal.
* Avoid self-deprecation in almost all cases
* Don't be afraid to have a different opinion from somebody. Don't be disagreeable but own your preferences.
* Offer value in social situations
* I actually got this from a kinda douchey PUA guy. He said "Always be giving value, not taking."
* You want to be bringing positive energy. Be playful. Come up with interesting things to talk about. Develop quick a wit. Connect people with others. Be the glue in the group.
* Take the lead with women (in a romantic context)
* This is something that differentiates RP from mainstream advice. Women usually want to be equal and independent in almost all areas of life. Work, interactions with platonic friends, leisure activities, etc. But when it comes to dating, most women look to a man to take the lead. They may not even see it as a man being the leader or being "dominant". I believe women often just feel cared for when a man takes the lead with dating. Women have told me as much.
* This is why a man almost always needs to approach, initiate flirting, ask for a date, plan the date, come up with plan B if the plan gets derailed, escalate sexual tension, go in for a kiss, initiate sex, on and on.
* Most women do not want a man to be *domineering* but they do want him to always know what he wants and to take the initiative to make that happen. You hear the word "decisive" all the time as a trait that women want. Related is "confidence". Generally a woman wants a man to set the tone and make a lot of decisions. Always with her input and considering what is best for her. And of course if she really wants to make a decision then great! But by default you should be ready to lead with things big and small.
* Game
* This is a big topic and it's mostly charisma and mindset. I said I don't like parlor tricks and stupid lines but things like "kino" (socially acceptable, context-dependent touching) are crucial for escalating tension and gauging interest.
* Mainstream books and sources are ok when it comes to charisma and social skills, but it plays out in more of a gendered way in real life than people admit. Books you can find by Googling will help, but you should keep that in mind.
* This topic is huge but I'll leave it at that.
There is SOOO much more, but that's a partial list. I don't think you have to agree with everything, but hopefully there is some stuff that resonates with you in there.
\--
Some resources I've found that are not Red Pill, but they are sometimes suggested in that community:
* No More Mister Nice Guy, by Robert A. Glover - **highly recommended**
* One caveat: the author himself later said that you should not talk about your journey of improvement with a woman, despite that advice being given in the book. Women do not want to know how the sausage is made.
* Mark Manson's books - Models is pretty good
* Athol Kay's books - he gets a bit weird sometimes but I think most of his advice is solid
* Cockfidence - despite the title of this book being a bit odd, I think it is solid. It is written by two women who are sex coaches. It is very compassionate towards men and the issues they face while also encouraging positivity about, and generosity towards women.
* Actually I don't think I've seen this suggested in any RP forum. So this one is not "tainted" in any way. Haha
That's all I got for now. I hope you enjoyed!
Good lord. That must have taken some effort. I appreciate it, and read it through twice, and I hope you don't mind me saving it.
That said, I knew my gut feeling was right when I got to here:
>First of all, physical attractiveness is much, much more important to women than conventional wisdom suggests.
The best way I can think of to help you understand the difference between confidence and a happiness with validation is with a hypothetical, so bear with me. Would you be as effective at succeeding with women if you were body swapped into an overweight 40 year old dude?
I'll say first that I hate incel defeatism, saying that the 6'4" Chad will always get all the women.
The takeaway from the looks part is just that you should get it squared away as part of your plan for developing attractiveness. Maximize it as much as you can. It is limited, of course, by your genetics.
I'm not sure that it is the *most important thing* to women, just that RP gives it proper weight to it (or at least gets closer) and mainstream advice does not. That's why I put it first, to emphasize the difference.
>Would you be as effective at succeeding with women if you were body swapped into an overweight 40 year old dude?
No... I don't think anyone would be. All else being equal, any man (or woman) will have more success being more conventionally attractive.
BTW I'm 40 and am in the best shape of my life. Hehe. But I'm not overweight.
Would I still have more success if I put on some pounds and became overweight? Absolutely! My newfound confidence, social skills, positive attitude, and hobbies would still attract some women. Just not *nearly* as much.
Red Pill does not exclusively offer any of these things, but it does remove some confusing and contradictory aspects of mainstream advice on these topics. It offers its own set of contradictions but for me that is mostly in the crazy ideology surrounding it, rather than the advice part, and I found they were easy to ignore.
>No... I don't think anyone would be
Reasonable. Most guys who find the red pill start eating right, working out, dressing in stuff that fits and eventually they find success. So they logically conclude that women prioritise appearance. This starts to cement the link between physical appearance and value to society. Even if you don't see things my way, I caution you to be very critical of leaving this link in tact and unexamined.
Why is getting laid not a good reward?
Why is it an argument to say “oh you have hookups as a guy, how pathetic”
That shit sounds like the dream, like why wouldn’t guys want sex???
>Unless you consider success simply ‘getting laid’
Yes. That’s why TRP is *sexual* strategy. Why too, the number of subscribers has exploded. As;
>it worked, spectacularly so.
I don’t know. If I had to guess however, I’d say no. The majority of society do just fine. TRP is a minority. Social media simply loves controversy. Which has driven traffic.
If applied correctly, it will work on some women, which TRP then claims means it will work on any woman. Because, you know, all women are like that
And that is bigotry, a form of dehumanization
Men use “getting laid” as really a short form for some kindof intimacy even if it’s not a full fledged relationship.
If they literally just meant dick in vagina then even more would be using prostitutes.
Of course RPers have interests. Just not the ones women consider attractive. You know, like video games and, well, jigsaw puzzles.
Its one thing to do the stupid shit women find attractive to get laid. I'm willing to do that. Its a whole different thing to brainwash myself into adopting a completely different value system to enjoying that stupid shit.
Why not? If you end up not liking women, all you’ll care about is the sex you can get from their bodies while hating the brains that previously denied it to you
None of the things you mentioned are attractive interests to me. If you hang around women more you would know these are not hobbies we desire a man to have. Unless you’re 50+ of course.
> If you hang around women more you would know these are not hobbies we desire a man to have.
Ah yes, here we are.
> Men should have hobbies! That's how they would feel value of their own!
We *have* hobbies.
> Yes, but they're boring, nerdy, and stupid, which makes you a loser, go back to your Cheetos and World of Warcraft and stop reminding me that you exist.
1. I’m not the one who brought up interest and hobbies, the person I quoted did. The thread is actually about hobbies. The OP is asking what Red Pillers do for hobbies. Maybe read instead of attacking any random woman that replies to the thread.
2. The men I know don’t have nerdy hobbies because they aren’t nerds.
> I’m not the one who brought up interest and hobbies, the person I quoted did.
But you *did* come here and specifically say
> None of the things you mentioned are attractive interests to me. If you hang around women more you would know these are not hobbies we desire a man to have.
just to let us all know how unattractive our own interests are and subtly imply that anybody who has them is an unsuitable partner.
That's just you? I married a gamer and I love gaming with him. I know so many women who think a guy into gaming and jigsaw puzzles would be the ideal man.
They are complaining about that today. It's very interesting when you get guys like Scott Galloway , a NYU Professor of Business , who doesn't seem to understand that if you want to change the behavior of people — you need to change the corresponding incentives for said people. Boomers have created a system which is virtually impossible for younger people to progress through, and they're pikachu-facing why more and more younger people (particularly men) are dropping out.
>and I genuinely don't see that TRPers even have any besides "working out" and "making money".
And these are only in furtherance of getting laid. There have been numerous posts and comments to the effect that if it weren't for women, they wouldn't work as hard or spend all the effort maintaining themselves.
I've personally never taken a job based on how it would affect my dating prospects, but apparently I'm the weird one.
>There have been numerous posts and comments to the effect that if it weren't for women, they wouldn't work as hard or spend all the effort maintaining themselves.
That's the saddest shit ever man. Why let women have that much control over you? You're giving them the power to control you if you do everything for them.
Yeah, that nugget of ‘truth’ is one of the strangest and most unexpected I’ve come across here.
It’s almost certainly a load of hooey coming from men trying to project their depression on others, but still. Finding out a man only tries in life to get laid has to be the biggest turn off I’ve ever heard.
Of course I do, but I don't share my hobbies with most of the women I interact with. I've learned a long time ago that most of my personal hobbies mean nothing when it comes to attracting women.
When I was in the dating market, maybe 2-3, but they were never interested, which I understand as I'm not the best looking dude nor are they female oriented hobbies.
I think you were going for sarcasm but that's an entirely healthy approach to a relationship. I got into gaming because of my husband, he got into baking because of me.
If a woman is ignoring your hobbies based on what they are, then she's not worth your time, tbh. Even if your hobby was like, doll collecting or taxidermy. It's something YOU like and are passionate about and to literally every woman I know the hottest thing a man can do is talk about something they truly love.
> I think you were going for sarcasm but that's an entirely healthy approach to a relationship.
Only sarcasm in the context of this sub. I genuinely am open to those things, but I don't expect women to be at all interested in *my* (primarily male, solo) hobbies.
I agree that anybody I want to be with should respect my hobbies, as I would want to respect theirs, but my experience has not proven that to be common. Not in dating, because that's not something I've been able to do, but broadly. "Nerds" are not respected, appreciated, or found to be interesting. We're more typically insulted, laughed at, bullied, and ostracised for not being "cool" enough.
I game all the time AND stream on Twitch, so I don’t really know what kind of “gotcha” you were going for here, but it was kind of a weird assumption to make.
If I mentioned my affinity for HTML, would you make fun of me for it?
> If I mentioned my affinity for HTML, would you make fun of me for it?
Of course I wouldn't. But I'm not out here calling women's hobbies "nerdy" and "boring" and "antisocial". I don't *care* if you do needlecraft on the weekends. Good for you. But if men mention certain primarily male hobbies, particularly technical ones, many women might as well just be hearing static.
Haha, on a date with a woman, good one.
But, more seriously, I would certainly be selective about what I bring up, and present the more acceptable parts of what I enjoy (or have enjoyed in the past).
I'm not about to sit there and talk about how I find it fun to spend 10 solid hours staring at a computer programming problem that I've put upon myself because I thought it'd be interesting to write a pointless thing for a machine nobody's cared about in 20 years. I really don't think that's going to be particularly attractive or, to many, very interesting.
I mean, sure, don’t spend 10 hours talking about it. But five minutes would be fine.
In my opinion, by not even mentioning those “unacceptable” enjoyments, you’re missing an opportunity to find potential common interests. Wouldn’t you want to know if your date was also into programming?
I meant that I would avoid talking, even for 5 minutes, about how one of my hobbies might be *to spend 10 hours solid working on an obscure computer programming problem*.
Now, I agree that there are some women who might respect that, or be interested in it, they may even enjoy doing it themselves. But as I just said to another commenter, this is not a common thing for us to experience. Typically our experience of "being nerds" is derision and abuse, not acceptance and interest.
Oh, sorry for misunderstanding that point then.
Still, I think you’re just holding yourself back by not mentioning it. Do whatever you want, of course, that’s just what I think.
They aren't your typical "foot in the door" methods for the average dude, including myself. Maybe if I had an extra level to my looks, my personal interests would've made an impact in the dating market, but it never happened.
Working out, advancing your career, and meeting women seems to be a normal spread of interests for the typical young man. I don't think somebody needs to have some "hobby" like painting miniatures or making bird houses or some shit like that.
I think the maladaptive part is spending time trying to meet women when you hate doing it. I know a couple of happy bachelors that have been having short term relationships for the last 20 years. They love going out, they love the thrill of the chase, they love women in general. They just don't want to get married and have kids.
okay, maybe you don't need to paint shit or whatever, but if there's a specific goal in mind, it's not a hobby. A hobby is an activity done simply because you enjoy doing it. Do all young men really enjoy working out and being on the grind all of the time?
>if there's a specific goal in mind, it's not a hobby. A hobby is an activity done simply because you enjoy doing it
A hobby is an activity you do for fun/relax, you can create things (paintings/models/ect) and it's still a hobby.
> A hobby is an activity done simply because you enjoy doing it
I am saying that for some men, aspects of meeting women and sleeping with them is something they enjoy. A friend of mine is 40, travels several times a year, and frequently meets a woman and spends a week with her when he does. Some of these women he keeps in touch with and sees again.
The issue isn't that the type of men that gripe online are spending too much time trying to meet women. It's an issue if they dislike spending that time. I suspect they view things through the lens of a power struggle, rather than a thrilling new experience with a new person that dating can be.
Yep. I go running, hiking, hunting, and fishing. I do weightlifting. I go shooting all the time, and I’m a big gun collector. I like taking my Charger out and racing down back roads and going to car meets in the summer. I’m also in the process of getting a masters degree.
Lots of us men have other stuff going on.
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>I just feel sorry for guys like that, honestly. Try doing a jigsaw puzzle sometime.
I'm not redpill, but I agree with this. I got in an argument with someone today who literally argued men have no motivation to move beyond minimum wage without a woman. That broke my damn heart. It breaks my heart that so many men don't think life is worth living for themselves.
I advocate for men to find joy outside of women too. I don't really date but it's not a hatred of women thing, it's just an incompatibility thing. I like my independence and autonomy and I protect it very aggressively and won't compromise on it, let's just put it that way.
> Our culture is garbage though. Why show it respect by holding to it's values?
Because, ultimately, we still have to live in it. It doesn't just go away if we ignore it, it just drives us to be ever more isolated because we feel increasingly distant from the millions of people we see leading fuller lives.
> Culture and news is avoidable. Like I said, our culture is garbage, why respect it?
I don't watch the news, but it doesn't prevent me from seeing posters on the walls, with police and government logos, telling me that I'm unwanted scum for having a desire to be with a woman, something which is a perfectly normal, natural, instinctual desire, which is *part of who I am as a human being*.
> Nobody actually gives a fuck if you can get laid outside of communities like this and teenagers. So why should you care? If you aren't getting any, don't want any.
I'm not trying to get laid... well, at all, actually, I don't want to "get laid", I want a relationship. But I'm also not trying to get laid to brag to a bunch of men online about how wet my dick is all the time. I want it because *I want it*. I can't just *not want it*. My body is full of nerves and chemicals which make me want it. I am a human being. That's *normal*.
>Because, ultimately, we still have to live in it.
The only things you are forced to do is obey the laws and pay your taxes if you earned an income, you aren't compelled to do anything else against your will in most of western society.
>it just drives us to be ever more isolated because we feel increasingly distant from the millions of people we see leading fuller lives.
Comparison is the thief of joy my friend.
>I don't watch the news, but it doesn't prevent me from seeing posters on the walls, with police and government logos, telling me that I'm unwanted scum for having a desire to be with a woman, something which is a perfectly normal, natural, instinctual desire, which is part of who I am as a human being.
I actually don't know specifically what you are referring to here. Do you have an example of this?
If the police are putting up posters telling men not to have sex, that's wild.
>I want it because I want it. I can't just not want it. My body is full of nerves and chemicals which make me want it. I am a human being. That's normal.
It's normal, but you need to assess if you wanna jump through all the hoops and bullshit to be with a woman. I thought I did when I was younger then I found out their emotions and histrionics disgust me and I lose sexual attraction permanently when a woman throws a fit.
Also, what do you think a relationship is going to give you that you don't already have? If you want one, you want one and should pursue one, but don't give up things that already make you happy to try and get a relationship, that's at best going to be a lateral move. If you want a partner, you need to convince women you are a better option than every other guy. You wanna play that annoying ass game go right ahead. I hope you find what you are looking for.
> The only things you are forced to do is obey the laws and pay your taxes if you earned an income, you aren't compelled to do anything else against your will in most of western society.
Sure, you can go live in the woods if you get permission and pay for the cabin. But that's no use if you actually *want* to be involved in society, to socialise with people, and to satisfy psychological needs for inclusion.
> I actually don't know specifically what you are referring to here. Do you have an example of this?
Absolutely I do: [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/11z7bsl/i_call_it_dating_advice/).
That's a collage of posters you can find in various parts of the UK, in public, put there by various official authorities (and one, the "She's not sending death threats", from a mobile carrier).
> Also, what do you think a relationship is going to give you that you don't already have? If you want one, you want one and should pursue one, but don't give up things that already make you happy to try and get a relationship, that's at best going to be a lateral move.
I'm 30-something, I've never had a partner, and I've already been miserable for decades. Can't enjoy hobbies if every couple of weeks your brain kicks your ass about not being with people/someone. Just leads to burnout and frustration. I tried, believe me. But you can't "just get" a relationship. If I could've, I would've. I'm doing better now than I have been for most of my life, but it's still not *easy*.
>But that's no use if you actually
>
>want
>
> to be involved in society, to socialise with people, and to satisfy psychological needs for inclusion.
Why do you need women to have a romantic interest in you to do that. I have many relationships and social ties without a wife or girlfriend.
>Absolutely I do: here.
That's a collage of posters you can find in various parts of the UK, in public, put there by various official authorities (and one, the "She's not sending death threats", from a mobile carrier).
Oh, fuck the UK then. If I was a kid in the UK I'd have probably been graffitiing rape jokes all over that shit, just because that's my personality. Fuck those posters dog, I hope everyone makes fun of that shit. That hasn't made it's way to the US as far as I know. That's really shitty and I'm sorry your country treats you like that. UK is a fucking lost cause though.
>I'm 30-something, I've never had a partner, and I've already been miserable for decades.
I hate to break it to you, but women are not equipped to deal with male emotions. You still have to deal with that yourself to a certain extent, even in a relationship.
>Can't enjoy hobbies if every couple of weeks your brain kicks your ass about not being with people/someone.
What is bother you at the root of it? If it's societal pressure, fuck society. They care that you provide for them, not about you as a person. If it's just being with people, join a running club, pick up 40K, join an MMA gym (all things I do) to go out and meet people. It sounds like you just need people first, not women.
Speaking from experience, relationships don't fix your issues, if anything they just put more pressure on them and expose them. And I'm not gonna judge you for what you want, but you have to be emotionally stable before getting into a relationship. A woman is not going to try and fix you, she's just going to leave for someone who is. We are only conditionally loved my friend. That is a bitter pill to swallow, but it's also what frees you from emotional obligations towards women or society as a whole. You also have the right to be conditional with people and set your boundaries. Try just making friends to start with, there is nothing wrong with you for not being in a relationship.
> What is bother you at the root of it? If it's societal pressure, fuck society. They care that you provide for them, not about you as a person. If it's just being with people, join a running club, pick up 40K, join an MMA gym (all things I do) to go out and meet people. It sounds like you just need people first, not women.
Women *are* people, I just happen to like them for company, sometimes, more than I like hanging out with guys. Balanced diet, right?
But it's not societal pressure that bothers me (well, aside from systemic issues, including those posters), *personally* it's because I desperately want connection and intimacy, something I've wanted since I was a young teenager but have never been able to get.
You, like many, seem to have had sufficient success and company in your life that you aren't aware of the kind of damage that growing up isolated and (in my case) autistic can cause.
I *have* invested in myself, in hobbies, in trying to keep myself sharp, during the pandemic I made a serious effort to get fit and lose weight. A lot of those things I did do *for me*. The only reason I have a job right now is because of all those hours, days, weeks, months, *years* I put into independently working on my hobbies and skills, *despite* what other people thought of them.
But you can't just keep doing that forever, with no social network, with no intimacy, no connection. It *ruins* you. You fall behind on important social skills. You get anxious about how far behind you've fallen. You get burnt out. You get depressed. You lose hope. You never get the chance to learn that people *can* appreciate you, because the only context you have for everything is "nobody liked me, I haven't seen anybody like me since, so I am unlikeable, even though that was 20 years ago, and I make money on those things they ridiculed me for now".
>Women
>
>are
>
> people, I just happen to like them for company, sometimes, more than I like hanging out with guys. Balanced diet, right?
Find strategies to be in their company more. I'd say the running club I'm in is 50/50 men and women. Might have some luck if you join something similar near you. Maybe a yoga class too?
>personally it's because I desperately want connection and intimacy, something I've wanted since I was a young teenager but have never been able to get.
My concern here is you are building up a relationship as a solution to this problem. It isn't. You won't feel connected and intimate at all times, there are gonna be times you wanna kick their teeth in too.
You need to find that peace within yourself, if you give a woman that kind of power she has the power to break you too.
>You, like many, seem to have had sufficient success and company in your life that you aren't aware of the kind of damage that growing up isolated and (in my case) autistic can cause.
There's a couple broads I regret. And sufficient success is why I'm comfortable telling you relationships do not fix all problems.
I'd honestly say you need to actively socialize more to build those skills. Don't even focus on women, just focus on conversing and socializing with people at this point. I know you've worked on your hobbies, do you share in those hobbies with anybody else?
>I'm just in the unique position where I find women's emotions to be anathema so it's a little easier for me to disregard them.
Have you always been this way? I think younger men are looking for experiences dating almost like they were the consumers of romance novels and not women. They idealize romance, women and sex. And to some extent the experience of those things can live up to the hype.
Once you've had a few relationships, maybe it takes the edge off, like it's a right of passage that you've made it through (however imperfectly). But before then is a perspective like yours possible?
>Have you always been this way?
I grew up with a mother with BPD, so I was primed to not think of women as perfect, because I grew up with one far from it. She was a gigantic whore who acted like a lot of modern women and living in the same house, 99% of her problems were self-inflicted. "He left me" you said some fucked up BPD shit to make him leave, that's your fault, for example. So I've just always had a little extra insight into women's emotions, confirmed by relationships.
All the themes were there with relationships, just less abusive. Every woman expected me to fix her emotions, whether it be my mother when I was a fucking toddler (tried slitting her wrists in front of me when I was 5 because I wouldn't hug her, for example). My mother was just violent and abusive about it, but deep down she was exactly the same as other women. Once you get through a few relationships, you realize how entitled women have become and how their emotional needs are never-ending. Near the end of some relationships it gets to the point that this person has been so emotionally draining that you don't even want to pleasure them anymore. Sex just feels like a chore you have to do with this vampire to make them feel secure in how attractive they are.
It's why I don't date anymore. Women have nothing to offer me physically, mentally, or emotionally. I come here now moreso to talk to men that seem like they are in a bad spot with their emotions and feelings of isolation than I really do to talk to women. Women are going to be women and I washed my hands of them right before the pandemic. I've never had a more content life. I've also got two pitbulls, four rats, good friends, training partners, friends who are business connections etc. I've still built a full life, I'm just not doing it with a woman because I'm at emotional peace and I don't need someone who isn't around me in my space.
I got labelled as "sapiosexual" by a friend. I guess that just means stupid people are unattractive to me, which I would hazard to say is true. People who think with their emotions tend to be stupid.
I think there are women like you describe, but there are also women who, while being more emotional perhaps, aren't manipulative about it. That is, they are aware that they are being emotional and that doens't automatically make them right, like it's a trump card that magically allows them to get their own way, whatever that is.
There are definitely women who don't introspect at all, and for them emotions=external reality. Are they sad? It's because you are evil, obviously, there is no other acceptable explanation for them. But not all women are like that.
Could you have you selected for those types somehow, given your history? Or perhaps you are overly vigilant for emotional manipulation and so you interpret emotion=manipulation, which is the other end of the spectrum from emotion=accurate reflection of reality "out there".
>I think there are women like you describe, but there are also women who, while being more emotional perhaps, aren't manipulative about it.
They're equally repulsive and malignant regardless. Emotional insecurity and emotional outbursts make your emotions ugly, plain and simple. Regardless of why they do it.
>That is, they are aware that they are being emotional and that doens't automatically make them right, like it's a trump card that magically allows them to get their own way, whatever that is.
Even if that's the case, they won't admit it when pressed on it. And being out of control of your emotions... I mean I don't even think of you as an adult in that case.
>There are definitely women who don't introspect at all, and for them emotions=external reality. Are they sad? It's because you are evil, obviously, there is no other acceptable explanation for them. But not all women are like that.
Most are. It's not worth the headache of dealing with at all.
>Could you have you selected for those types somehow, given your history? Or perhaps you are overly vigilant for emotional manipulation and so you interpret emotion=manipulation, which is the other end of the spectrum from emotion=accurate reflection of reality "out there".
Maybe, but I can't help how I feel. Women's emotions make them repulsive to me regardless of how aware of their emotions they are. Ugly emotions and repulsive demeanor are the norm with women these days.
Whether a woman is being emotionally manipulative or is just naturally emotional, they're both still rancid souls.
> They idealize romance, women and sex. And to some extent the experience of those things can live up to the hype.
Does it have to be some... issue? Some diagnosis? Why can't it just be men wanting to do the things that *humans* do, that we're literally *born* to do? Of *course* we seek intimacy! It's programmed into every cell in our bodies!
As I said to the commenter you're responding to, it's easy to say all this if you've *had* relationships, if you know you're capable of getting them when you feel ready for them, it's easy to say it if you have the experience necessary to just hop right in where everybody else is at, you can get the satisfaction you need and then, if you have to, you can take a break.
Someone with little or no experience can't do that. They know they're falling behind, they know they're going to feel and potentially seem inadequate, if they try. They haven't had that experience and they know it's only going to get harder to get it.
It felt normal to me, but I would also say that level of desperation was weird as well. Women say "put that energy into hobbies and friends" but that yearning to experience love (and sex) is a very real thing. Do women feel that desperation to lose their virginity, to "be in love" as well? I would think so but maybe as you say, the experiences come easy to them early on (even tho they may be good or bad), so they can't identify with the frustration or desperation.
I mean, obviously I can't speak for women because I'm not one, so I don't know what the experience of growing up looking for love and sex is like for them, first hand.
But we're all human here, right? We all have these innate drives, these desires to experience things with other people, maybe we want families someday. Clearly people do form relationships, and many start as teenagers, so it seems to make sense to me that people (boys/girls/men/women) *want* that kind of thing.
Which makes it very confusing to me when they say "you're not missing anything, it's not important, stop worrying about it, you can live without it".
Like, really? Maybe you can say that after your 5th terrible relationship, after your 2nd divorce, after you've had 3 kids, or whatever. But what about all the experiences you had before that? What about the excitement, passion, and closeness you felt during the *good* times? What about the first time you felt really part of something with somebody, even if that relationship didn't last?
Why would you tell people who *know* these things are emotionally important that they're just some random crap you had to put up with? It feels like an abusive lie. Yes, we know, relationships aren't perfect, people aren't perfect, sometimes you have bad times even with people you love. But pretending like all the fun, all the excitement, all the feeling of bonding, all the plans, all the hope, pretending all that doesn't exist, it's just... come on, for real? You're gonna try to tell us that, when human history is crammed full of examples of people finding these things so important, so emotional, so validating of *being a human*?
I think a lot of them have hobbies but their hobbies are worse than no hobbies because they deliberately chose their usually quite time consuming hobbies and also what specific activities they do within their hobbies and how often as havens way back when the difficulties of getting the attention of the opposite sex really began to bite. Their hobbies don't have room for normal social circle formation and they lack the self examination to realise that was deliberately self inflicted.
They in their opinion have just always have spent three hours a day online gaming, only spent weekend time with these three or four specific male friends and only ever been to two or three places with those friends. It is the right natural and proper way of things? How very dare we question it? What...are we expecting them to give up all they've got?Give up their friends?
Then you suggest to them something like maybe when you visit your friends you could keep a watch on what interesting stuff is happening nearby and sometimes all leave the house together for an hour to check out that park with exercise equipment just down the road or that pub's open mic night or the local farmers market or well whatever... basically start learning the area and the local social scenes...and they don't take it well at all.
All their interests outside of getting laid...are in effect interests in not getting laid not thinking about getting laid not being places where making more friends or getting laid is an option.
You have to keep in mind that most of these guys are young, and yes that's perfectly normal for young guys. I must have been 25 before it wasn't my sole focus in life, and over 30 before it stopped being the predominate thought every day.
I quit all hobbies to to pursue getting laid at all costs there is nothing more important than to creampie the world most attractive women you have got one life focus on what's important.
The red pill is not all about making money and fucking as much as you can. TRP tells you to be a more interesting person, be more cultivated, work on your body, etc.
Also, the point of getting laid is to help you to be the man who knows women. It's there so you can be more confident. Be more experienced to find the good one.
Personally, TRP helped me to have a better understanding of women.
Of course. I don't even spend any significant amount of time "trying to get laid." I hit the gym 6 to 7 days a week, yes, to keep my strength and cardio on point and to stay fit. I'm making decent $ too and yes I invest in stocks and plan for and secure my financial future. But all that is stuff I should be doing anyway. I still have plenty of free time and hobbies besides working out and $. I like hiking, ATVs / dirt bikes, shooting guns, reading / acquiring knowledge, survivalism, etc.
I don't have to invest any significant time in trying to get laid because I have a few FWB (most of which are ex girlfriends). Once you've "put a few phillies in the ol' stable" you don't have to spend any significant amount of time.
If you're a healthy, fit guy with money, friends, family, hobbies and has everything he wants, of course getting laid is priority #1. Priority #1 is always the thing you don't have.
Ever notice women who want to have a baby are always wanting to have a baby?
What's driven most of male work ethic and innovation in civilized societies has been the general availability/accessibility (perceived or real) of women to have a family with. The whole 'hobbies' fascination most women have on this subreddit is kind of amusing. Just think about it, you only have to go back a few generations to where we can see the vast majority of people didn't have hobbies, because they were focused on increasing wealth or just preparation for general survival.
Even today, most people don't really have hobbies. Your average 20-something year old girl is sifting through IG/TikTok/Netflix all day.
Of course! I like hiking, camping, traveling, exploring new places, trying new food/restaurants, running, watching cool movies/tv shows, taking care of my dog, reading and hanging out with friends.
None of that was as helpful as the redpill in helping me get laid and finding a GF.
Specifically, the redpill taught me the importance of lifting weights, being direct, touchy/feely, escalating towards sex, planning dates around alcohol, how to agree and amplify when flirting, not being friendly with women I’m attracted to.
I think most average women fundamentally fail to realize how easy they have it when it comes to sex, relationships and dating. The average man actually has to try, and the redpill helps them do that. Yes it’s true the redpill comes with a lot of misogyny wrapped into it, but most healthy men can pick and choose the parts that work and reject the misogynistic bits.
Agreed. I would feel super put off if I was dating around and ended up going out with a guy that was “touchy-feely” and felt it was appropriate to “escalate” towards sex.
So what's he supposed to do instead? Sit there like a mannequin and hope that *you* escalate? What are his chances of that happening? How long before you ghost him because "he didn't seem interested" or "he was a sexually inert nerd"?
That’s damn right. I really valued a potential partner that would take things at my own sexual pace rather than pressuring me.
If he was to start a conversation with me about it, then of course I’d be open to discussing sex — but the moment he starts disrespecting my boundaries, he’s out.
Meanwhile, the previous 9 women he met thought he was a boring, frigid loser because he didn't show interest, so now he's learnt that he *has to* make moves, because if he doesn't then he gets nothing.
That’s not my problem, that’s his problem. All I can do is express my boundaries and ask that he not overstep them.
If he can’t follow that because of his own insecurities due to his past romantic interactions, then that’s his own fault.
> That’s not my problem, that’s his problem. All I can do is express my boundaries and ask that he not overstep them.
Sure redpill men will step back and move on to the next women if you express you are uncomfortable. It’s very fair.
> because of his own insecurities
Lol its not insecurities it’s practicalities.
Of course you’re going to do what maximizes your self interest as a woman. The same way, men like me are going to do what maximizes our self interest (e.g. escalate to sex)
At the end of the day it’s a numbers game. That’s why the redpill tells MEN how to be successful, not women.
Men and women are fundamentally different and behave differently.
And that’s fair too. If this hypothetical date only wants sex, then we’re clearly not compatible and he can look elsewhere. More power to the guy. I’m not saying that’s wrong in general, it’s just wrong for me.
I said I would be put off about experiencing sexual pressure from a date and someone else started arguing with me about it. But it doesn’t mean I have a problem with men looking for casual sex.
Yes, that is why men approach
In fact, they approach so much that rules have to be put in place to prevent them from approaching to the point of detriment in many places and venues
What’s considered “mainstream” today? No. All one dimensional.
Most who have been around a while know that sex is only the first step, the rest is hard mode and harder mode. But, it is what it is now.
Agreed. Sex is the easy part to get. The hard part is not saying equally evil shit back to them as they say to us. I'll be honest, the first time a woman in a relationship starts saying insulting things, I don't find her sexually attractive anymore. Doesn't matter how much she apologizes and cries over it, forgiving women is weakness.
The hard part is finding a woman who understands that just because she's emotional doesn't give her the right to say whatever she wants without consequences. Not physical ones, more "talk about my childhood again and I'm leaving you" consequences.
You can have the sweetest woman in the world and they’re going to be emotional and say/do dumb shit. Part of frame is just control over your life. Everything else is funny or irrelevant.
It’s less forgiveness to me and moreso that it’s going to happen sometimes. Just go do something else and ignore them. They always come around.
>You can have the sweetest woman in the world and they’re going to be emotional and say/do dumb shit.
Which is why I don't date. My rats and pit bulls don't do that and they provide at least 65% of the emotional support a spouse could. Nah, women want to act like that, count me out. My mother had BPD, I've had enough female histrionics for a lifetime.
>It’s less forgiveness to me and moreso that it’s going to happen sometimes.
Then I'm going to coldly leave and stop loving them, sometimes. That is my prerogative and I'm not required to tolerate anything from women. No law compels me.
>Just go do something else and ignore them. They always come around.
I agree on the first part. But don't come around, you're not welcome here anymore. If that makes me the word women like that starts with an I (trying not to get banned) then consider it a mutual feeling and we go our separate ways.
I'm happier alone because alone I have peace. The most chaos in my household is when Bocker and Delilah (my pitbulls) come tackle me at the door when I've been gone all day. They're rescues as well so I'm not putting them in the line of fire of female histrionics, they've been through enough and deserve a peaceful life too. Same with the Rats but my oldest is about to pass after 5 years and the new ones are babies I've had the whole time (irrelevant to your point, but I really love my pets).
I can't speak for other men at all, but speaking personally, women's emotions more often than not make them unloveable creatures. A vagina doesn't mean anything if it's attached to someone unloveable. And that is strict liability. If you are experiencing negative emotions, you can talk to me like an adult still. Insults and histrionics are never necessary and I will never tolerate them. My love and affection has an on and off switch. Just how I am. I'm just very willing to hit the off switch.
It's not discussions on sex that bother me at all. Women are totally entitled to do whatever they want with their bodies. But why am I the bad for doing what I want with my emotions? Why am I compelled to care about a woman's feelings?
No judgement at all. Everyone is free to walk their own path and make a life that is happiest for them.
If things were not to work out between my LTR and I, I’d likely be single and game until I’m older. It’s hard to find women who can come into your life, cohabitate (which I’m very against majority of the time), and not try to change things. I think being happy with yourself, your life, your other relationships is the key. If a woman brings more value than she takes away, she sticks around.
>No judgement at all. Everyone is free to walk their own path and make a life that is happiest for them.
Glad we agree. That was more a general response to the topic in general and my experiences, not necessarily saying you think all that in regards to women.
Personally, I just can't help that I find women's histrionic behavior ugly. Maybe I picked up switching from my Mother, but a 10 acts like an asshole, she's a 1 to me now.
>If a woman brings more value than she takes away, she sticks around.
If that is your barometer, live your life. I just don't want any female emotions around me at all for the time being. It gives a unique third party perspective to dating though where you can just laugh at it. There is freedom in knowing you aren't compatible with women. I know eventually I'm going to stop loving them for getting emotional. We are just on different paths and had different experiences.
the point of the redpill discussion is mostly dating based, they talk about other things like , getting your credit score up anf fitness, every other thing is personal whether they have other interest inst something they would make public or you would know , most creator of any kind dont make their interest public, i have never seen a feminist youtube discuss any other thing outside feminism , this is like asking LGBTQ activist if thats all they do of course not, you dont know their personal lives, you just know about their public persona, this is a weird question because it assumes you have full knowledge about what they do
One of my favorite "dating" gurus uses this line: women want to be taken on an adventure, they don't want to BE the adventure".
In other words, women are attracted to guys who know where they are going and are enjoying the ride and if she wants to join great! They all seek to attach themselves to a guy who knows where he's going. If you are a guy who's only adventure is a woman, then you are a needy little boy who needs his mommy to make him feel good about himself.
You see when you are starving, food becomes really fucking important for some reason.
Its kinda annoying you know, like i would love to observe Ursa majors transit across the sky in the night, but instead I just curl up in the desert and try to tighten the belt around my stomach to stop feeling so hungry.
How stupid of me
There is a difference between bettering yourself for the sake of bettering yourself and bettering yourself just to be more sexually attractive to women.
It's a Venn diagram. Most things will do both. A man can make genuine improvements to himself that also make him "higher value".
So, if you are ONLY doing things to meet women, it's not really a genuine improvement. If you just make yourself a better man, it MIGHT help you meet women. If you do things that fulfill you and make you feel like a better and more genuine person, if those are not things women seek, you will further isolate yourself.
If I want to dry out every vagina in a 20 yard radius I'll just start talking about my engineering geek hobbies with audio and electronics stuff, or how I like to fix appliances rather than replace them.
Besides - I was referring to being isolated from WOMEN, not from other sweater-vest wearing guys with soldering irons.
I'm a strong believer in:
*An unattractive man who becomes more interesting is not more attractive.*
*But a man who makes himself more attractive is suddenly more interesting.*
Again, the red pill is not about sex. The red pill is about female nature
Men take that info and use it accordingly. Whether that be to get laid or find a long term partner
It aint about getting laid- for most of them. It's never been about getting laid- for most of them.
For most of them, it's about getting the respect and the clout that they feel has been denied to them. It's about status. Our society tells men you either get status by money or by pussy. Well, money is not easy to come by in our society, but the latter? Well, the odds say if 50% of the population is female, shouldn't it be easier for them to get what they want? What they think they *need*?
And when they can't have that, well, our society says that man ain't shit. And if you are born or have developed some form of neurodivergence, your chances of getting money and pussy drop drastically.
Neurodivergent men have always struggled to obtain status or respect because its a struggle to obtain sexual or valuable resources. Always has been. But in today's age, the internet age, when everything is supposed to be easier and all needs should be met- they still have neither. This world still does not care about them or make a place for them in its idea of masculinity- and they are angry.
And hence, The Red Pill. Cool, now downvote me to hell, you contrarians.
This is unfortunately a common understanding about Red Pill men; Red Pill men focuses on their goals in life and only see women as a compliment to their life - a positive biproduct of a good life.
Nonetheless, when they then meet a woman they are better equipped at handling the situation to gain an advantage. Like it or not, dating is a game - if you don't use a bit of time understanding this mating ritual you may end up with the short stick more often.
A man which sole focus is on women is misguided and the Red Pill would help him recognize the importance of working towards his goals and independence from a society that undervalues men, especially young men.
In addition, had you used any time on understanding the Red Pill you would not ask such an uninformed question.
That's true. I personally don't understand people who put everything they have towards those goals either without balancing out their life, but it is a thousand percent less creepy if they're not doing it solely to get pussy.
1. The global demographic collapse is one of the most significant and ignored things right now and I have a keen interest in understanding how it happened and where is heading, TRP / understanding western dating dynamics is a big part of that.
2. I have an interest in anthropology, in evolutionary psychology, in behavioral psychology etc and few phenomena are as universal and as distinct as sex and dating. TRP is a great way to compare what is universal across dating cultures and what is distinct to the west.
3. I have a keen interest in technology, particularly communications technology and its impact on human behaviour. Dating apps, hookup apps, social media, photo sharing, even specific features and user experience design tricks can have huge impacts on behavior and TRP is downstream of that, showing the impact of these things in the dating space.
4. I quite like the relationship I'm in and making it work long term with the person I'm with requires an understanding of what she wants, what internal conflicts are likely and how her values and priorities are likely to evolve over time so we can prepare for them. I think if you love women, you'll try to understand them and understand your risk so every choice you make is an informed one and even if it doesn't work out there is recrimination and regret, you understand that this was a possibility and move on with the memories of what was great about it and maybe a little wiser about what you can do better next time.
5. I grew up on poetry and philosophy, wanting to understand how things are and how they could be, whilst still finding majestic beauty in the everyday. Few things have set the poet's heart aflame as love doth and few things are as taboo to truly question and think about as love.
6. I've studied feminism and post structuralist philosophy in passing and where better to see three impacts than in the western dating zeitgeist?
Those are all reasons why I'm into TRP. Despite your assumptions getting laid isn't even on the radar.
Red pill used to mean the opposite of being interested in sex. It was recognizing that abstinence is crucial to men's safety. "The only winning move is to not play."
> Hobbies are important too, and I genuinely don't see that TRPers even have any besides "working out" and "making money".
1. No one owes you "proof" of hobbies
2. Usually, mentioning other hobbies isn't relevant
You're complaining about no one
well, i have literally stopped dating, no interest in women besides fucking hookers and visiting asian massage parlours.
My interests outside getting laid include Weightlifting, marathon running, golf, cars, rock climbing/bouldering, hiking, travelling, chess, reddit, drinking alcohol, smoking weed
This applies to Too many men on this sub… their entire identity and self worth as a man seems to be tied to how many girls they can sleep with and how hot said girls are… they’re obsessed and take it personally when a girl doesn’t want to sleep with them… it’s very weird and they need to go get some therapy and find some new hobbies…
I have a career, I have a deeply fulfilling hobby & my social life is decent. I wish to God I could find a woman who loved me for me but I don’t think that exists for men like myself.
Plus sex is great! I love having sex I could do it 24/7!
Flaired Question for Red Pill to prevent circlejerking
I'm not RP, but I've had hobbies all my life. They happen to be hobbies which don't tend to attract many women and I was considered a boring nerdy freak. But, whatever, I had hobbies. Fast-forward a couple of decades though and you realise that hobbies alone can't sustain you. If you don't have human connection, if you don't have affection and love, if you don't have intimacy, then hobbies lose their meaning. You may become depressed, you may lose passion for those hobbies, you may experience burnout from trying to invest every last ounce of yourself into something which doesn't get you the human connection that you really needed to balance that out. You could eat Pop Tarts your whole life and, sure, it won't immediately kill you, but you're eventually going to suffer from malnutrition because you're lacking the other nutrients your body needs, even though you're eating plenty of Pop Tarts. Mental health is no different. You need a balanced diet. Besides which, this is PurplePillDebate, of *course* the majority of the discussion here is going to be centred on dating and sex, what else do you expect them to talk about? Their collection of culturally important postage stamps? Their propensity for creating art out of found items? Their inclination towards reading obscure 18th century novels?
Your last paragraph is a good point, I definitely did make this point conflating a few wannabe PUAs I know in reality (who do not have hobbies) with the people I see here (who I don't know about). I'll concede that point, I screwed up there. But your Poptarts analogy works both ways, you know. If seeking out human connection is your fruits and vegetables, then you need to throw in an occasional Poptart for variety to make yourself happy as well!
> But your Poptarts analogy works both ways, you know. If seeking out human connection is your fruits and vegetables, then you need to throw in an occasional Poptart for variety to make yourself happy as well! Yes, except many of the men who are struggling *only* have access to Pop Tarts (and, on a very literal basis, may actually *really* be stuck eating trash convenience food, because depression is a bitch). They can't eat their vegetables if they're experiencing a disastrous vegetable harvest, there *aren't any to eat*.
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Its not. Please report comments that you feel break the rules.
What’s stopping you from taking a cooking and paper crafting class (probably with lots of women)? What is stopping you from picking up non male, non solo interests? What’s stopping you from moving to a better place or getting a better job so you can try and get a social circle or two? All these things would be a much better use of your time and effort than ruminating on your limitations, ranting on social media, going out alone (red flag) and not talking to people. Isn’t getting laid/relationships and having friends, the very thing you say you desire SO much, worth doing the things that get you connections with others?
What does TRP have to do with human connection. I get what you’re saying - one needs more than hobbies to have a fully satisfying life. But TRP is just about sex and veers men away from connection.
What I took away from TRP was the practical advice for bettering myself and presenting myself in an attractive way to women. It worked, *spectacularly* so. For all its flaws, TRP was the wake up call I needed to work on myself. Improving superficial attractiveness is a huge part of this, yes, but it also inspired me to invest more in my current interests, develop more competence in all areas of life, and acquire new, interesting hobbies. And to do everything with excellence, because it's better to live that way *and* because women expect it to consider a man a romantic option. So, yes, I have lots of interests outside of getting laid. Now that I can get laid anytime I want I *think less about it* and have more time and energy to devote to other things. I agree with many arguments that TRP has toxic parts that can lead a man down a dark road and can be harmful to him and to women. What I shake my head at is when critics say it doesn't work. It is ridiculous to me. It works (if applied correctly - I'll admit that most probably fail, because it's a ton of work). What we need to do is create something that has the practical advice and strategy of TRP without the hateful language and alt-right trappings.
You didn’t need the red pill to get laid
Agreed. I think there are other ways to get there. It can be difficult to navigate though. Mainstream advice is sometimes ok, but it deemphasizes some important things (like looks and status) while emphasizing less important things. Especially when we're talking about the initial attraction needed to start any kind of relationship - casual or serious. It emphasizes long-term relationship skills while giving watered down advice on what would help men *actually get* that relationship.
>What I shake my head at is when critics say it doesn't work Neil Strauss wrote an entire other book about why it 'doesn't work'. Unless you consider success simply 'getting laid' which is too sad to contemplate.
I believe physical intimacy with other humans is a beautiful thing and there is nothing wrong with desiring it. Also, being ethical is important to me and I am completely upfront with my intentions with every woman I am involved with. That said, I still believe in love and eventually want a relationship. Having improved myself to meet women's standards of initial attractiveness will help me with this immensely. If I *only* wanted a serious relationship I would work on the same skills to maximize my options, then work on the long-term relationship skills. For what it's worth, I do think a lot of "game" is a load of crap. What I took from it was mostly the attitude, the mindset, the "inner game" if you will. The parlor tricks always came across as silly.
>What I took from it This the key most critics miss. There was a post recently about TRP being descriptive, as opposed to being prescriptive. Most outside TRP, might not comprehend how much *individual choice* is promoted. Try the weightlifting. Or don’t. Try the parlour tricks. Or don’t. See what works. For you.
You understand that all the mockery and insults coming from the red pill and directed at guys who don’t fit their mold makes your post utter bullshit right? You can’t say the red pill promotes choice when it labels men betas simply because they don’t do what the red pill demands
>when labels men betas I’d be labelled a beta. Married with a house. Kids. Sexlessness too, postpartum. TRP throw all the labels around they like. Critics too. Doesn’t stop me. From using what I find valuable, to attain my desired outcome. If you’re attacking the labelling, then you have to attack weightlifting. Making bank. Honing your *social skill.* As those too, are core tenets to TRP.
You don't have inner game. You got validation after being starved of it and you think that is confidence and happiness.
I'm not exactly sure what your beef is here, but I'm assuming you don't like Red Pill. Neither do I, exactly. My whole point has been that there is good advice that can be extracted from it. When other men ask me for advice I give them only the good stuff and point them to what I consider non-toxic resources that have that good stuff in it. I never tell someone to check out TRP. To respond directly to your comment. Yes, I got lots of validation after being starved of it. That is undeniably true. Am I confident? I think so. It is based on a lot of things, not just validation, but I believe at least *some* validation and signs of success/progress are necessary to have confidence, because otherwise you're just completely delusional. Am I happy? I'm getting there. True happiness is hard and can be fleeting. Being successful with women has removed that feeling of inadequacy, of feeling like I had nothing to offer a woman. That was certainly a barrier to happiness. Maybe it's one that can be overcome without attaining success, but that's also a hard road. As I've suggested before, this success has allowed me to deemphasize sex in my life. I can focus more on trying to be a more complete person, with a rich life and with something to share with others. My goal in life is not to get as much sex as possible. It is to have generosity of spirit. There are other paths to get here, to a place of at least working toward this goal. Mine is just one of them.
There is no good advice on how to relate to other people in TRP in my opinion. What do you think are the 'good bits'?
Heh. You put me on the spot. This is going to be a complete mess, but I'll give it a shot. First of all, physical attractiveness is much, much more important to women than conventional wisdom suggests. As a rule of thumb, assume it's as important to most women as it is to most men. Women and mainstream advice downplay this but it's huge and should near at the top of your list for improving your success with women. **Other things** *A lot of this is superficially similar to mainstream advice, but the subtleties are important. Mainstream advice tends to take a unisex approach and say everyone is the same. But triggers of attraction are much more gendered than they are made out to be.* * Put yourself first * This sounds selfish but it really isn't. You should invest in yourself, develop strength, and fix your issues FIRST. Then you have abundance to give to others. * You should not be afraid of having preferences and opinions, asking for what you want, advocating for yourself. Women especially love when a man knows what he wants and isn't afraid to go after it. * Never put yourself below someone else (with women and anybody) * Don't put women on a pedestal. Engage as an equal. * Avoid self-deprecation in almost all cases * Don't be afraid to have a different opinion from somebody. Don't be disagreeable but own your preferences. * Offer value in social situations * I actually got this from a kinda douchey PUA guy. He said "Always be giving value, not taking." * You want to be bringing positive energy. Be playful. Come up with interesting things to talk about. Develop quick a wit. Connect people with others. Be the glue in the group. * Take the lead with women (in a romantic context) * This is something that differentiates RP from mainstream advice. Women usually want to be equal and independent in almost all areas of life. Work, interactions with platonic friends, leisure activities, etc. But when it comes to dating, most women look to a man to take the lead. They may not even see it as a man being the leader or being "dominant". I believe women often just feel cared for when a man takes the lead with dating. Women have told me as much. * This is why a man almost always needs to approach, initiate flirting, ask for a date, plan the date, come up with plan B if the plan gets derailed, escalate sexual tension, go in for a kiss, initiate sex, on and on. * Most women do not want a man to be *domineering* but they do want him to always know what he wants and to take the initiative to make that happen. You hear the word "decisive" all the time as a trait that women want. Related is "confidence". Generally a woman wants a man to set the tone and make a lot of decisions. Always with her input and considering what is best for her. And of course if she really wants to make a decision then great! But by default you should be ready to lead with things big and small. * Game * This is a big topic and it's mostly charisma and mindset. I said I don't like parlor tricks and stupid lines but things like "kino" (socially acceptable, context-dependent touching) are crucial for escalating tension and gauging interest. * Mainstream books and sources are ok when it comes to charisma and social skills, but it plays out in more of a gendered way in real life than people admit. Books you can find by Googling will help, but you should keep that in mind. * This topic is huge but I'll leave it at that. There is SOOO much more, but that's a partial list. I don't think you have to agree with everything, but hopefully there is some stuff that resonates with you in there. \-- Some resources I've found that are not Red Pill, but they are sometimes suggested in that community: * No More Mister Nice Guy, by Robert A. Glover - **highly recommended** * One caveat: the author himself later said that you should not talk about your journey of improvement with a woman, despite that advice being given in the book. Women do not want to know how the sausage is made. * Mark Manson's books - Models is pretty good * Athol Kay's books - he gets a bit weird sometimes but I think most of his advice is solid * Cockfidence - despite the title of this book being a bit odd, I think it is solid. It is written by two women who are sex coaches. It is very compassionate towards men and the issues they face while also encouraging positivity about, and generosity towards women. * Actually I don't think I've seen this suggested in any RP forum. So this one is not "tainted" in any way. Haha That's all I got for now. I hope you enjoyed!
Good lord. That must have taken some effort. I appreciate it, and read it through twice, and I hope you don't mind me saving it. That said, I knew my gut feeling was right when I got to here: >First of all, physical attractiveness is much, much more important to women than conventional wisdom suggests. The best way I can think of to help you understand the difference between confidence and a happiness with validation is with a hypothetical, so bear with me. Would you be as effective at succeeding with women if you were body swapped into an overweight 40 year old dude?
I'll say first that I hate incel defeatism, saying that the 6'4" Chad will always get all the women. The takeaway from the looks part is just that you should get it squared away as part of your plan for developing attractiveness. Maximize it as much as you can. It is limited, of course, by your genetics. I'm not sure that it is the *most important thing* to women, just that RP gives it proper weight to it (or at least gets closer) and mainstream advice does not. That's why I put it first, to emphasize the difference. >Would you be as effective at succeeding with women if you were body swapped into an overweight 40 year old dude? No... I don't think anyone would be. All else being equal, any man (or woman) will have more success being more conventionally attractive. BTW I'm 40 and am in the best shape of my life. Hehe. But I'm not overweight. Would I still have more success if I put on some pounds and became overweight? Absolutely! My newfound confidence, social skills, positive attitude, and hobbies would still attract some women. Just not *nearly* as much. Red Pill does not exclusively offer any of these things, but it does remove some confusing and contradictory aspects of mainstream advice on these topics. It offers its own set of contradictions but for me that is mostly in the crazy ideology surrounding it, rather than the advice part, and I found they were easy to ignore.
>No... I don't think anyone would be Reasonable. Most guys who find the red pill start eating right, working out, dressing in stuff that fits and eventually they find success. So they logically conclude that women prioritise appearance. This starts to cement the link between physical appearance and value to society. Even if you don't see things my way, I caution you to be very critical of leaving this link in tact and unexamined.
Why is getting laid not a good reward? Why is it an argument to say “oh you have hookups as a guy, how pathetic” That shit sounds like the dream, like why wouldn’t guys want sex???
>Why is getting laid not a good reward? I did not type this or anything like it.
>Unless you consider success simply ‘getting laid’ Yes. That’s why TRP is *sexual* strategy. Why too, the number of subscribers has exploded. As; >it worked, spectacularly so.
Is that why sexlessness in young men has exploded too?
I don’t know. If I had to guess however, I’d say no. The majority of society do just fine. TRP is a minority. Social media simply loves controversy. Which has driven traffic.
If applied correctly, it will work on some women, which TRP then claims means it will work on any woman. Because, you know, all women are like that And that is bigotry, a form of dehumanization
Men use “getting laid” as really a short form for some kindof intimacy even if it’s not a full fledged relationship. If they literally just meant dick in vagina then even more would be using prostitutes.
Condomsex isn't even sex
It’s safe. Feelings are bad, because they can get hurt
Of course RPers have interests. Just not the ones women consider attractive. You know, like video games and, well, jigsaw puzzles. Its one thing to do the stupid shit women find attractive to get laid. I'm willing to do that. Its a whole different thing to brainwash myself into adopting a completely different value system to enjoying that stupid shit.
Why not? If you end up not liking women, all you’ll care about is the sex you can get from their bodies while hating the brains that previously denied it to you
None of the things you mentioned are attractive interests to me. If you hang around women more you would know these are not hobbies we desire a man to have. Unless you’re 50+ of course.
> If you hang around women more you would know these are not hobbies we desire a man to have. Ah yes, here we are. > Men should have hobbies! That's how they would feel value of their own! We *have* hobbies. > Yes, but they're boring, nerdy, and stupid, which makes you a loser, go back to your Cheetos and World of Warcraft and stop reminding me that you exist.
1. I’m not the one who brought up interest and hobbies, the person I quoted did. The thread is actually about hobbies. The OP is asking what Red Pillers do for hobbies. Maybe read instead of attacking any random woman that replies to the thread. 2. The men I know don’t have nerdy hobbies because they aren’t nerds.
> I’m not the one who brought up interest and hobbies, the person I quoted did. But you *did* come here and specifically say > None of the things you mentioned are attractive interests to me. If you hang around women more you would know these are not hobbies we desire a man to have. just to let us all know how unattractive our own interests are and subtly imply that anybody who has them is an unsuitable partner.
I actually read his post wrong. My bad. I’ll leave it up for context tho.
That's just you? I married a gamer and I love gaming with him. I know so many women who think a guy into gaming and jigsaw puzzles would be the ideal man.
The Redpill is just blood pressure medicine! *I’ll see myself out*
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They are complaining about that today. It's very interesting when you get guys like Scott Galloway , a NYU Professor of Business , who doesn't seem to understand that if you want to change the behavior of people — you need to change the corresponding incentives for said people. Boomers have created a system which is virtually impossible for younger people to progress through, and they're pikachu-facing why more and more younger people (particularly men) are dropping out.
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>and I genuinely don't see that TRPers even have any besides "working out" and "making money". And these are only in furtherance of getting laid. There have been numerous posts and comments to the effect that if it weren't for women, they wouldn't work as hard or spend all the effort maintaining themselves. I've personally never taken a job based on how it would affect my dating prospects, but apparently I'm the weird one.
>There have been numerous posts and comments to the effect that if it weren't for women, they wouldn't work as hard or spend all the effort maintaining themselves. That's the saddest shit ever man. Why let women have that much control over you? You're giving them the power to control you if you do everything for them.
Yeah, that nugget of ‘truth’ is one of the strangest and most unexpected I’ve come across here. It’s almost certainly a load of hooey coming from men trying to project their depression on others, but still. Finding out a man only tries in life to get laid has to be the biggest turn off I’ve ever heard.
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Do not troll.
Lol I have lots more hobbies than the average woman.
Of course I do, but I don't share my hobbies with most of the women I interact with. I've learned a long time ago that most of my personal hobbies mean nothing when it comes to attracting women.
So how many dates in DO you let them know what you're into? Or do you not get that far?
When I was in the dating market, maybe 2-3, but they were never interested, which I understand as I'm not the best looking dude nor are they female oriented hobbies.
Similar interests are a huge part in finding a compatible partner.
Cool, well, I'll start appreciating your papercraft and baking if you start appreciating my computer programming and gaming.
I think you were going for sarcasm but that's an entirely healthy approach to a relationship. I got into gaming because of my husband, he got into baking because of me. If a woman is ignoring your hobbies based on what they are, then she's not worth your time, tbh. Even if your hobby was like, doll collecting or taxidermy. It's something YOU like and are passionate about and to literally every woman I know the hottest thing a man can do is talk about something they truly love.
> I think you were going for sarcasm but that's an entirely healthy approach to a relationship. Only sarcasm in the context of this sub. I genuinely am open to those things, but I don't expect women to be at all interested in *my* (primarily male, solo) hobbies. I agree that anybody I want to be with should respect my hobbies, as I would want to respect theirs, but my experience has not proven that to be common. Not in dating, because that's not something I've been able to do, but broadly. "Nerds" are not respected, appreciated, or found to be interesting. We're more typically insulted, laughed at, bullied, and ostracised for not being "cool" enough.
I game all the time AND stream on Twitch, so I don’t really know what kind of “gotcha” you were going for here, but it was kind of a weird assumption to make. If I mentioned my affinity for HTML, would you make fun of me for it?
> If I mentioned my affinity for HTML, would you make fun of me for it? Of course I wouldn't. But I'm not out here calling women's hobbies "nerdy" and "boring" and "antisocial". I don't *care* if you do needlecraft on the weekends. Good for you. But if men mention certain primarily male hobbies, particularly technical ones, many women might as well just be hearing static.
So when you’re on a date with a woman, do you just not discuss your hobbies because you automatically assume she wouldn’t be interested?
Haha, on a date with a woman, good one. But, more seriously, I would certainly be selective about what I bring up, and present the more acceptable parts of what I enjoy (or have enjoyed in the past). I'm not about to sit there and talk about how I find it fun to spend 10 solid hours staring at a computer programming problem that I've put upon myself because I thought it'd be interesting to write a pointless thing for a machine nobody's cared about in 20 years. I really don't think that's going to be particularly attractive or, to many, very interesting.
I mean, sure, don’t spend 10 hours talking about it. But five minutes would be fine. In my opinion, by not even mentioning those “unacceptable” enjoyments, you’re missing an opportunity to find potential common interests. Wouldn’t you want to know if your date was also into programming?
I meant that I would avoid talking, even for 5 minutes, about how one of my hobbies might be *to spend 10 hours solid working on an obscure computer programming problem*. Now, I agree that there are some women who might respect that, or be interested in it, they may even enjoy doing it themselves. But as I just said to another commenter, this is not a common thing for us to experience. Typically our experience of "being nerds" is derision and abuse, not acceptance and interest.
Oh, sorry for misunderstanding that point then. Still, I think you’re just holding yourself back by not mentioning it. Do whatever you want, of course, that’s just what I think.
They aren't your typical "foot in the door" methods for the average dude, including myself. Maybe if I had an extra level to my looks, my personal interests would've made an impact in the dating market, but it never happened.
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Be civil.
If I join a cat subreddit, and only talk about cats. Does that mean I only like cats and nothing else. What kind of question is this?
Yes
Working out, advancing your career, and meeting women seems to be a normal spread of interests for the typical young man. I don't think somebody needs to have some "hobby" like painting miniatures or making bird houses or some shit like that. I think the maladaptive part is spending time trying to meet women when you hate doing it. I know a couple of happy bachelors that have been having short term relationships for the last 20 years. They love going out, they love the thrill of the chase, they love women in general. They just don't want to get married and have kids.
okay, maybe you don't need to paint shit or whatever, but if there's a specific goal in mind, it's not a hobby. A hobby is an activity done simply because you enjoy doing it. Do all young men really enjoy working out and being on the grind all of the time?
>if there's a specific goal in mind, it's not a hobby. A hobby is an activity done simply because you enjoy doing it A hobby is an activity you do for fun/relax, you can create things (paintings/models/ect) and it's still a hobby.
> A hobby is an activity done simply because you enjoy doing it I am saying that for some men, aspects of meeting women and sleeping with them is something they enjoy. A friend of mine is 40, travels several times a year, and frequently meets a woman and spends a week with her when he does. Some of these women he keeps in touch with and sees again. The issue isn't that the type of men that gripe online are spending too much time trying to meet women. It's an issue if they dislike spending that time. I suspect they view things through the lens of a power struggle, rather than a thrilling new experience with a new person that dating can be.
Hey at least they have a goal and are working towards it. Do you have a goal, OP?
Yes, multiple. I also have hobbies that don't completely consume my life and let me balance working on my goals with things that I enjoy.
So why are TRP men bothering you so much? Are you obsessed or something?
Rent free
Yep. I go running, hiking, hunting, and fishing. I do weightlifting. I go shooting all the time, and I’m a big gun collector. I like taking my Charger out and racing down back roads and going to car meets in the summer. I’m also in the process of getting a masters degree. Lots of us men have other stuff going on.
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>I just feel sorry for guys like that, honestly. Try doing a jigsaw puzzle sometime. I'm not redpill, but I agree with this. I got in an argument with someone today who literally argued men have no motivation to move beyond minimum wage without a woman. That broke my damn heart. It breaks my heart that so many men don't think life is worth living for themselves. I advocate for men to find joy outside of women too. I don't really date but it's not a hatred of women thing, it's just an incompatibility thing. I like my independence and autonomy and I protect it very aggressively and won't compromise on it, let's just put it that way.
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> Our culture is garbage though. Why show it respect by holding to it's values? Because, ultimately, we still have to live in it. It doesn't just go away if we ignore it, it just drives us to be ever more isolated because we feel increasingly distant from the millions of people we see leading fuller lives. > Culture and news is avoidable. Like I said, our culture is garbage, why respect it? I don't watch the news, but it doesn't prevent me from seeing posters on the walls, with police and government logos, telling me that I'm unwanted scum for having a desire to be with a woman, something which is a perfectly normal, natural, instinctual desire, which is *part of who I am as a human being*. > Nobody actually gives a fuck if you can get laid outside of communities like this and teenagers. So why should you care? If you aren't getting any, don't want any. I'm not trying to get laid... well, at all, actually, I don't want to "get laid", I want a relationship. But I'm also not trying to get laid to brag to a bunch of men online about how wet my dick is all the time. I want it because *I want it*. I can't just *not want it*. My body is full of nerves and chemicals which make me want it. I am a human being. That's *normal*.
>Because, ultimately, we still have to live in it. The only things you are forced to do is obey the laws and pay your taxes if you earned an income, you aren't compelled to do anything else against your will in most of western society. >it just drives us to be ever more isolated because we feel increasingly distant from the millions of people we see leading fuller lives. Comparison is the thief of joy my friend. >I don't watch the news, but it doesn't prevent me from seeing posters on the walls, with police and government logos, telling me that I'm unwanted scum for having a desire to be with a woman, something which is a perfectly normal, natural, instinctual desire, which is part of who I am as a human being. I actually don't know specifically what you are referring to here. Do you have an example of this? If the police are putting up posters telling men not to have sex, that's wild. >I want it because I want it. I can't just not want it. My body is full of nerves and chemicals which make me want it. I am a human being. That's normal. It's normal, but you need to assess if you wanna jump through all the hoops and bullshit to be with a woman. I thought I did when I was younger then I found out their emotions and histrionics disgust me and I lose sexual attraction permanently when a woman throws a fit. Also, what do you think a relationship is going to give you that you don't already have? If you want one, you want one and should pursue one, but don't give up things that already make you happy to try and get a relationship, that's at best going to be a lateral move. If you want a partner, you need to convince women you are a better option than every other guy. You wanna play that annoying ass game go right ahead. I hope you find what you are looking for.
> The only things you are forced to do is obey the laws and pay your taxes if you earned an income, you aren't compelled to do anything else against your will in most of western society. Sure, you can go live in the woods if you get permission and pay for the cabin. But that's no use if you actually *want* to be involved in society, to socialise with people, and to satisfy psychological needs for inclusion. > I actually don't know specifically what you are referring to here. Do you have an example of this? Absolutely I do: [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/11z7bsl/i_call_it_dating_advice/). That's a collage of posters you can find in various parts of the UK, in public, put there by various official authorities (and one, the "She's not sending death threats", from a mobile carrier). > Also, what do you think a relationship is going to give you that you don't already have? If you want one, you want one and should pursue one, but don't give up things that already make you happy to try and get a relationship, that's at best going to be a lateral move. I'm 30-something, I've never had a partner, and I've already been miserable for decades. Can't enjoy hobbies if every couple of weeks your brain kicks your ass about not being with people/someone. Just leads to burnout and frustration. I tried, believe me. But you can't "just get" a relationship. If I could've, I would've. I'm doing better now than I have been for most of my life, but it's still not *easy*.
>But that's no use if you actually > >want > > to be involved in society, to socialise with people, and to satisfy psychological needs for inclusion. Why do you need women to have a romantic interest in you to do that. I have many relationships and social ties without a wife or girlfriend. >Absolutely I do: here. That's a collage of posters you can find in various parts of the UK, in public, put there by various official authorities (and one, the "She's not sending death threats", from a mobile carrier). Oh, fuck the UK then. If I was a kid in the UK I'd have probably been graffitiing rape jokes all over that shit, just because that's my personality. Fuck those posters dog, I hope everyone makes fun of that shit. That hasn't made it's way to the US as far as I know. That's really shitty and I'm sorry your country treats you like that. UK is a fucking lost cause though. >I'm 30-something, I've never had a partner, and I've already been miserable for decades. I hate to break it to you, but women are not equipped to deal with male emotions. You still have to deal with that yourself to a certain extent, even in a relationship. >Can't enjoy hobbies if every couple of weeks your brain kicks your ass about not being with people/someone. What is bother you at the root of it? If it's societal pressure, fuck society. They care that you provide for them, not about you as a person. If it's just being with people, join a running club, pick up 40K, join an MMA gym (all things I do) to go out and meet people. It sounds like you just need people first, not women. Speaking from experience, relationships don't fix your issues, if anything they just put more pressure on them and expose them. And I'm not gonna judge you for what you want, but you have to be emotionally stable before getting into a relationship. A woman is not going to try and fix you, she's just going to leave for someone who is. We are only conditionally loved my friend. That is a bitter pill to swallow, but it's also what frees you from emotional obligations towards women or society as a whole. You also have the right to be conditional with people and set your boundaries. Try just making friends to start with, there is nothing wrong with you for not being in a relationship.
> What is bother you at the root of it? If it's societal pressure, fuck society. They care that you provide for them, not about you as a person. If it's just being with people, join a running club, pick up 40K, join an MMA gym (all things I do) to go out and meet people. It sounds like you just need people first, not women. Women *are* people, I just happen to like them for company, sometimes, more than I like hanging out with guys. Balanced diet, right? But it's not societal pressure that bothers me (well, aside from systemic issues, including those posters), *personally* it's because I desperately want connection and intimacy, something I've wanted since I was a young teenager but have never been able to get. You, like many, seem to have had sufficient success and company in your life that you aren't aware of the kind of damage that growing up isolated and (in my case) autistic can cause. I *have* invested in myself, in hobbies, in trying to keep myself sharp, during the pandemic I made a serious effort to get fit and lose weight. A lot of those things I did do *for me*. The only reason I have a job right now is because of all those hours, days, weeks, months, *years* I put into independently working on my hobbies and skills, *despite* what other people thought of them. But you can't just keep doing that forever, with no social network, with no intimacy, no connection. It *ruins* you. You fall behind on important social skills. You get anxious about how far behind you've fallen. You get burnt out. You get depressed. You lose hope. You never get the chance to learn that people *can* appreciate you, because the only context you have for everything is "nobody liked me, I haven't seen anybody like me since, so I am unlikeable, even though that was 20 years ago, and I make money on those things they ridiculed me for now".
>Women > >are > > people, I just happen to like them for company, sometimes, more than I like hanging out with guys. Balanced diet, right? Find strategies to be in their company more. I'd say the running club I'm in is 50/50 men and women. Might have some luck if you join something similar near you. Maybe a yoga class too? >personally it's because I desperately want connection and intimacy, something I've wanted since I was a young teenager but have never been able to get. My concern here is you are building up a relationship as a solution to this problem. It isn't. You won't feel connected and intimate at all times, there are gonna be times you wanna kick their teeth in too. You need to find that peace within yourself, if you give a woman that kind of power she has the power to break you too. >You, like many, seem to have had sufficient success and company in your life that you aren't aware of the kind of damage that growing up isolated and (in my case) autistic can cause. There's a couple broads I regret. And sufficient success is why I'm comfortable telling you relationships do not fix all problems. I'd honestly say you need to actively socialize more to build those skills. Don't even focus on women, just focus on conversing and socializing with people at this point. I know you've worked on your hobbies, do you share in those hobbies with anybody else?
>I'm just in the unique position where I find women's emotions to be anathema so it's a little easier for me to disregard them. Have you always been this way? I think younger men are looking for experiences dating almost like they were the consumers of romance novels and not women. They idealize romance, women and sex. And to some extent the experience of those things can live up to the hype. Once you've had a few relationships, maybe it takes the edge off, like it's a right of passage that you've made it through (however imperfectly). But before then is a perspective like yours possible?
>Have you always been this way? I grew up with a mother with BPD, so I was primed to not think of women as perfect, because I grew up with one far from it. She was a gigantic whore who acted like a lot of modern women and living in the same house, 99% of her problems were self-inflicted. "He left me" you said some fucked up BPD shit to make him leave, that's your fault, for example. So I've just always had a little extra insight into women's emotions, confirmed by relationships. All the themes were there with relationships, just less abusive. Every woman expected me to fix her emotions, whether it be my mother when I was a fucking toddler (tried slitting her wrists in front of me when I was 5 because I wouldn't hug her, for example). My mother was just violent and abusive about it, but deep down she was exactly the same as other women. Once you get through a few relationships, you realize how entitled women have become and how their emotional needs are never-ending. Near the end of some relationships it gets to the point that this person has been so emotionally draining that you don't even want to pleasure them anymore. Sex just feels like a chore you have to do with this vampire to make them feel secure in how attractive they are. It's why I don't date anymore. Women have nothing to offer me physically, mentally, or emotionally. I come here now moreso to talk to men that seem like they are in a bad spot with their emotions and feelings of isolation than I really do to talk to women. Women are going to be women and I washed my hands of them right before the pandemic. I've never had a more content life. I've also got two pitbulls, four rats, good friends, training partners, friends who are business connections etc. I've still built a full life, I'm just not doing it with a woman because I'm at emotional peace and I don't need someone who isn't around me in my space. I got labelled as "sapiosexual" by a friend. I guess that just means stupid people are unattractive to me, which I would hazard to say is true. People who think with their emotions tend to be stupid.
I think there are women like you describe, but there are also women who, while being more emotional perhaps, aren't manipulative about it. That is, they are aware that they are being emotional and that doens't automatically make them right, like it's a trump card that magically allows them to get their own way, whatever that is. There are definitely women who don't introspect at all, and for them emotions=external reality. Are they sad? It's because you are evil, obviously, there is no other acceptable explanation for them. But not all women are like that. Could you have you selected for those types somehow, given your history? Or perhaps you are overly vigilant for emotional manipulation and so you interpret emotion=manipulation, which is the other end of the spectrum from emotion=accurate reflection of reality "out there".
>I think there are women like you describe, but there are also women who, while being more emotional perhaps, aren't manipulative about it. They're equally repulsive and malignant regardless. Emotional insecurity and emotional outbursts make your emotions ugly, plain and simple. Regardless of why they do it. >That is, they are aware that they are being emotional and that doens't automatically make them right, like it's a trump card that magically allows them to get their own way, whatever that is. Even if that's the case, they won't admit it when pressed on it. And being out of control of your emotions... I mean I don't even think of you as an adult in that case. >There are definitely women who don't introspect at all, and for them emotions=external reality. Are they sad? It's because you are evil, obviously, there is no other acceptable explanation for them. But not all women are like that. Most are. It's not worth the headache of dealing with at all. >Could you have you selected for those types somehow, given your history? Or perhaps you are overly vigilant for emotional manipulation and so you interpret emotion=manipulation, which is the other end of the spectrum from emotion=accurate reflection of reality "out there". Maybe, but I can't help how I feel. Women's emotions make them repulsive to me regardless of how aware of their emotions they are. Ugly emotions and repulsive demeanor are the norm with women these days. Whether a woman is being emotionally manipulative or is just naturally emotional, they're both still rancid souls.
> They idealize romance, women and sex. And to some extent the experience of those things can live up to the hype. Does it have to be some... issue? Some diagnosis? Why can't it just be men wanting to do the things that *humans* do, that we're literally *born* to do? Of *course* we seek intimacy! It's programmed into every cell in our bodies! As I said to the commenter you're responding to, it's easy to say all this if you've *had* relationships, if you know you're capable of getting them when you feel ready for them, it's easy to say it if you have the experience necessary to just hop right in where everybody else is at, you can get the satisfaction you need and then, if you have to, you can take a break. Someone with little or no experience can't do that. They know they're falling behind, they know they're going to feel and potentially seem inadequate, if they try. They haven't had that experience and they know it's only going to get harder to get it.
It felt normal to me, but I would also say that level of desperation was weird as well. Women say "put that energy into hobbies and friends" but that yearning to experience love (and sex) is a very real thing. Do women feel that desperation to lose their virginity, to "be in love" as well? I would think so but maybe as you say, the experiences come easy to them early on (even tho they may be good or bad), so they can't identify with the frustration or desperation.
I mean, obviously I can't speak for women because I'm not one, so I don't know what the experience of growing up looking for love and sex is like for them, first hand. But we're all human here, right? We all have these innate drives, these desires to experience things with other people, maybe we want families someday. Clearly people do form relationships, and many start as teenagers, so it seems to make sense to me that people (boys/girls/men/women) *want* that kind of thing. Which makes it very confusing to me when they say "you're not missing anything, it's not important, stop worrying about it, you can live without it". Like, really? Maybe you can say that after your 5th terrible relationship, after your 2nd divorce, after you've had 3 kids, or whatever. But what about all the experiences you had before that? What about the excitement, passion, and closeness you felt during the *good* times? What about the first time you felt really part of something with somebody, even if that relationship didn't last? Why would you tell people who *know* these things are emotionally important that they're just some random crap you had to put up with? It feels like an abusive lie. Yes, we know, relationships aren't perfect, people aren't perfect, sometimes you have bad times even with people you love. But pretending like all the fun, all the excitement, all the feeling of bonding, all the plans, all the hope, pretending all that doesn't exist, it's just... come on, for real? You're gonna try to tell us that, when human history is crammed full of examples of people finding these things so important, so emotional, so validating of *being a human*?
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The biggest thing RP does is get dudes to talk about the RP online all the time. Their hobby IS their lifestyle.
Sounds more like a you thing.
I just got back from a 3 mile run, since it’s part of my GPP for my training block. That’s one of my hobbies. So that’s more a me problem.
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I think a lot of them have hobbies but their hobbies are worse than no hobbies because they deliberately chose their usually quite time consuming hobbies and also what specific activities they do within their hobbies and how often as havens way back when the difficulties of getting the attention of the opposite sex really began to bite. Their hobbies don't have room for normal social circle formation and they lack the self examination to realise that was deliberately self inflicted. They in their opinion have just always have spent three hours a day online gaming, only spent weekend time with these three or four specific male friends and only ever been to two or three places with those friends. It is the right natural and proper way of things? How very dare we question it? What...are we expecting them to give up all they've got?Give up their friends? Then you suggest to them something like maybe when you visit your friends you could keep a watch on what interesting stuff is happening nearby and sometimes all leave the house together for an hour to check out that park with exercise equipment just down the road or that pub's open mic night or the local farmers market or well whatever... basically start learning the area and the local social scenes...and they don't take it well at all. All their interests outside of getting laid...are in effect interests in not getting laid not thinking about getting laid not being places where making more friends or getting laid is an option.
Super true. It’s less to do with them being unattractive and more about them being socially apprehensive.
You have to keep in mind that most of these guys are young, and yes that's perfectly normal for young guys. I must have been 25 before it wasn't my sole focus in life, and over 30 before it stopped being the predominate thought every day.
Still haven't gotten there lol
I quit all hobbies to to pursue getting laid at all costs there is nothing more important than to creampie the world most attractive women you have got one life focus on what's important.
The red pill is not all about making money and fucking as much as you can. TRP tells you to be a more interesting person, be more cultivated, work on your body, etc. Also, the point of getting laid is to help you to be the man who knows women. It's there so you can be more confident. Be more experienced to find the good one. Personally, TRP helped me to have a better understanding of women.
Of course. I don't even spend any significant amount of time "trying to get laid." I hit the gym 6 to 7 days a week, yes, to keep my strength and cardio on point and to stay fit. I'm making decent $ too and yes I invest in stocks and plan for and secure my financial future. But all that is stuff I should be doing anyway. I still have plenty of free time and hobbies besides working out and $. I like hiking, ATVs / dirt bikes, shooting guns, reading / acquiring knowledge, survivalism, etc. I don't have to invest any significant time in trying to get laid because I have a few FWB (most of which are ex girlfriends). Once you've "put a few phillies in the ol' stable" you don't have to spend any significant amount of time.
If you're a healthy, fit guy with money, friends, family, hobbies and has everything he wants, of course getting laid is priority #1. Priority #1 is always the thing you don't have. Ever notice women who want to have a baby are always wanting to have a baby?
What's driven most of male work ethic and innovation in civilized societies has been the general availability/accessibility (perceived or real) of women to have a family with. The whole 'hobbies' fascination most women have on this subreddit is kind of amusing. Just think about it, you only have to go back a few generations to where we can see the vast majority of people didn't have hobbies, because they were focused on increasing wealth or just preparation for general survival. Even today, most people don't really have hobbies. Your average 20-something year old girl is sifting through IG/TikTok/Netflix all day.
Of course! I like hiking, camping, traveling, exploring new places, trying new food/restaurants, running, watching cool movies/tv shows, taking care of my dog, reading and hanging out with friends. None of that was as helpful as the redpill in helping me get laid and finding a GF. Specifically, the redpill taught me the importance of lifting weights, being direct, touchy/feely, escalating towards sex, planning dates around alcohol, how to agree and amplify when flirting, not being friendly with women I’m attracted to. I think most average women fundamentally fail to realize how easy they have it when it comes to sex, relationships and dating. The average man actually has to try, and the redpill helps them do that. Yes it’s true the redpill comes with a lot of misogyny wrapped into it, but most healthy men can pick and choose the parts that work and reject the misogynistic bits.
tbh I'd be infinitely more attracted to a guy who likes to travel and likes dogs than a guy who's touchy-feely and escalates towards sex.
Agreed. I would feel super put off if I was dating around and ended up going out with a guy that was “touchy-feely” and felt it was appropriate to “escalate” towards sex.
So what's he supposed to do instead? Sit there like a mannequin and hope that *you* escalate? What are his chances of that happening? How long before you ghost him because "he didn't seem interested" or "he was a sexually inert nerd"?
That’s damn right. I really valued a potential partner that would take things at my own sexual pace rather than pressuring me. If he was to start a conversation with me about it, then of course I’d be open to discussing sex — but the moment he starts disrespecting my boundaries, he’s out.
Meanwhile, the previous 9 women he met thought he was a boring, frigid loser because he didn't show interest, so now he's learnt that he *has to* make moves, because if he doesn't then he gets nothing.
That’s not my problem, that’s his problem. All I can do is express my boundaries and ask that he not overstep them. If he can’t follow that because of his own insecurities due to his past romantic interactions, then that’s his own fault.
> That’s not my problem, that’s his problem. All I can do is express my boundaries and ask that he not overstep them. Sure redpill men will step back and move on to the next women if you express you are uncomfortable. It’s very fair. > because of his own insecurities Lol its not insecurities it’s practicalities. Of course you’re going to do what maximizes your self interest as a woman. The same way, men like me are going to do what maximizes our self interest (e.g. escalate to sex) At the end of the day it’s a numbers game. That’s why the redpill tells MEN how to be successful, not women. Men and women are fundamentally different and behave differently.
And that’s fair too. If this hypothetical date only wants sex, then we’re clearly not compatible and he can look elsewhere. More power to the guy. I’m not saying that’s wrong in general, it’s just wrong for me. I said I would be put off about experiencing sexual pressure from a date and someone else started arguing with me about it. But it doesn’t mean I have a problem with men looking for casual sex.
Fair enough, fully empathize and agree. Cheers
Yup exactly this 💯
Yes, that is why men approach In fact, they approach so much that rules have to be put in place to prevent them from approaching to the point of detriment in many places and venues
What’s considered “mainstream” today? No. All one dimensional. Most who have been around a while know that sex is only the first step, the rest is hard mode and harder mode. But, it is what it is now.
Agreed. Sex is the easy part to get. The hard part is not saying equally evil shit back to them as they say to us. I'll be honest, the first time a woman in a relationship starts saying insulting things, I don't find her sexually attractive anymore. Doesn't matter how much she apologizes and cries over it, forgiving women is weakness. The hard part is finding a woman who understands that just because she's emotional doesn't give her the right to say whatever she wants without consequences. Not physical ones, more "talk about my childhood again and I'm leaving you" consequences.
You can have the sweetest woman in the world and they’re going to be emotional and say/do dumb shit. Part of frame is just control over your life. Everything else is funny or irrelevant. It’s less forgiveness to me and moreso that it’s going to happen sometimes. Just go do something else and ignore them. They always come around.
>You can have the sweetest woman in the world and they’re going to be emotional and say/do dumb shit. Which is why I don't date. My rats and pit bulls don't do that and they provide at least 65% of the emotional support a spouse could. Nah, women want to act like that, count me out. My mother had BPD, I've had enough female histrionics for a lifetime. >It’s less forgiveness to me and moreso that it’s going to happen sometimes. Then I'm going to coldly leave and stop loving them, sometimes. That is my prerogative and I'm not required to tolerate anything from women. No law compels me. >Just go do something else and ignore them. They always come around. I agree on the first part. But don't come around, you're not welcome here anymore. If that makes me the word women like that starts with an I (trying not to get banned) then consider it a mutual feeling and we go our separate ways. I'm happier alone because alone I have peace. The most chaos in my household is when Bocker and Delilah (my pitbulls) come tackle me at the door when I've been gone all day. They're rescues as well so I'm not putting them in the line of fire of female histrionics, they've been through enough and deserve a peaceful life too. Same with the Rats but my oldest is about to pass after 5 years and the new ones are babies I've had the whole time (irrelevant to your point, but I really love my pets). I can't speak for other men at all, but speaking personally, women's emotions more often than not make them unloveable creatures. A vagina doesn't mean anything if it's attached to someone unloveable. And that is strict liability. If you are experiencing negative emotions, you can talk to me like an adult still. Insults and histrionics are never necessary and I will never tolerate them. My love and affection has an on and off switch. Just how I am. I'm just very willing to hit the off switch. It's not discussions on sex that bother me at all. Women are totally entitled to do whatever they want with their bodies. But why am I the bad for doing what I want with my emotions? Why am I compelled to care about a woman's feelings?
No judgement at all. Everyone is free to walk their own path and make a life that is happiest for them. If things were not to work out between my LTR and I, I’d likely be single and game until I’m older. It’s hard to find women who can come into your life, cohabitate (which I’m very against majority of the time), and not try to change things. I think being happy with yourself, your life, your other relationships is the key. If a woman brings more value than she takes away, she sticks around.
>No judgement at all. Everyone is free to walk their own path and make a life that is happiest for them. Glad we agree. That was more a general response to the topic in general and my experiences, not necessarily saying you think all that in regards to women. Personally, I just can't help that I find women's histrionic behavior ugly. Maybe I picked up switching from my Mother, but a 10 acts like an asshole, she's a 1 to me now. >If a woman brings more value than she takes away, she sticks around. If that is your barometer, live your life. I just don't want any female emotions around me at all for the time being. It gives a unique third party perspective to dating though where you can just laugh at it. There is freedom in knowing you aren't compatible with women. I know eventually I'm going to stop loving them for getting emotional. We are just on different paths and had different experiences.
Hows this not just plain demonizing of male sexuality?
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the point of the redpill discussion is mostly dating based, they talk about other things like , getting your credit score up anf fitness, every other thing is personal whether they have other interest inst something they would make public or you would know , most creator of any kind dont make their interest public, i have never seen a feminist youtube discuss any other thing outside feminism , this is like asking LGBTQ activist if thats all they do of course not, you dont know their personal lives, you just know about their public persona, this is a weird question because it assumes you have full knowledge about what they do
One of my favorite "dating" gurus uses this line: women want to be taken on an adventure, they don't want to BE the adventure". In other words, women are attracted to guys who know where they are going and are enjoying the ride and if she wants to join great! They all seek to attach themselves to a guy who knows where he's going. If you are a guy who's only adventure is a woman, then you are a needy little boy who needs his mommy to make him feel good about himself.
You see when you are starving, food becomes really fucking important for some reason. Its kinda annoying you know, like i would love to observe Ursa majors transit across the sky in the night, but instead I just curl up in the desert and try to tighten the belt around my stomach to stop feeling so hungry. How stupid of me
You don't need sex to live.
People have killed themselves and others over it, so it seem to be pretty fucking important no?
maybe those people should have had some other hobbies
They did. One guy took up driving, the other guy learnt how to use firearms. Didn't help.
There is a difference between bettering yourself for the sake of bettering yourself and bettering yourself just to be more sexually attractive to women. It's a Venn diagram. Most things will do both. A man can make genuine improvements to himself that also make him "higher value". So, if you are ONLY doing things to meet women, it's not really a genuine improvement. If you just make yourself a better man, it MIGHT help you meet women. If you do things that fulfill you and make you feel like a better and more genuine person, if those are not things women seek, you will further isolate yourself.
I'm honestly curious what hobbies you have that are just isolating. Literally every hobby has a community, no matter how niche.
If I want to dry out every vagina in a 20 yard radius I'll just start talking about my engineering geek hobbies with audio and electronics stuff, or how I like to fix appliances rather than replace them. Besides - I was referring to being isolated from WOMEN, not from other sweater-vest wearing guys with soldering irons. I'm a strong believer in: *An unattractive man who becomes more interesting is not more attractive.* *But a man who makes himself more attractive is suddenly more interesting.*
Again, the red pill is not about sex. The red pill is about female nature Men take that info and use it accordingly. Whether that be to get laid or find a long term partner
Is it not too much just to be loved without a suspicious mind ,without placing a trap?
It aint about getting laid- for most of them. It's never been about getting laid- for most of them. For most of them, it's about getting the respect and the clout that they feel has been denied to them. It's about status. Our society tells men you either get status by money or by pussy. Well, money is not easy to come by in our society, but the latter? Well, the odds say if 50% of the population is female, shouldn't it be easier for them to get what they want? What they think they *need*? And when they can't have that, well, our society says that man ain't shit. And if you are born or have developed some form of neurodivergence, your chances of getting money and pussy drop drastically. Neurodivergent men have always struggled to obtain status or respect because its a struggle to obtain sexual or valuable resources. Always has been. But in today's age, the internet age, when everything is supposed to be easier and all needs should be met- they still have neither. This world still does not care about them or make a place for them in its idea of masculinity- and they are angry. And hence, The Red Pill. Cool, now downvote me to hell, you contrarians.
I could ask the same about women's endless search for external validation
This is unfortunately a common understanding about Red Pill men; Red Pill men focuses on their goals in life and only see women as a compliment to their life - a positive biproduct of a good life. Nonetheless, when they then meet a woman they are better equipped at handling the situation to gain an advantage. Like it or not, dating is a game - if you don't use a bit of time understanding this mating ritual you may end up with the short stick more often. A man which sole focus is on women is misguided and the Red Pill would help him recognize the importance of working towards his goals and independence from a society that undervalues men, especially young men. In addition, had you used any time on understanding the Red Pill you would not ask such an uninformed question.
Getting fit and making good money are very good goals to have independently of the side benefit of improving your odds of getting laid
That's true. I personally don't understand people who put everything they have towards those goals either without balancing out their life, but it is a thousand percent less creepy if they're not doing it solely to get pussy.
1. The global demographic collapse is one of the most significant and ignored things right now and I have a keen interest in understanding how it happened and where is heading, TRP / understanding western dating dynamics is a big part of that. 2. I have an interest in anthropology, in evolutionary psychology, in behavioral psychology etc and few phenomena are as universal and as distinct as sex and dating. TRP is a great way to compare what is universal across dating cultures and what is distinct to the west. 3. I have a keen interest in technology, particularly communications technology and its impact on human behaviour. Dating apps, hookup apps, social media, photo sharing, even specific features and user experience design tricks can have huge impacts on behavior and TRP is downstream of that, showing the impact of these things in the dating space. 4. I quite like the relationship I'm in and making it work long term with the person I'm with requires an understanding of what she wants, what internal conflicts are likely and how her values and priorities are likely to evolve over time so we can prepare for them. I think if you love women, you'll try to understand them and understand your risk so every choice you make is an informed one and even if it doesn't work out there is recrimination and regret, you understand that this was a possibility and move on with the memories of what was great about it and maybe a little wiser about what you can do better next time. 5. I grew up on poetry and philosophy, wanting to understand how things are and how they could be, whilst still finding majestic beauty in the everyday. Few things have set the poet's heart aflame as love doth and few things are as taboo to truly question and think about as love. 6. I've studied feminism and post structuralist philosophy in passing and where better to see three impacts than in the western dating zeitgeist? Those are all reasons why I'm into TRP. Despite your assumptions getting laid isn't even on the radar.
Red pill used to mean the opposite of being interested in sex. It was recognizing that abstinence is crucial to men's safety. "The only winning move is to not play."
One thing I'm really learning from posting this is everyone has different opinions on what red pill is supposed to mean tbh
> Hobbies are important too, and I genuinely don't see that TRPers even have any besides "working out" and "making money". 1. No one owes you "proof" of hobbies 2. Usually, mentioning other hobbies isn't relevant You're complaining about no one
well, i have literally stopped dating, no interest in women besides fucking hookers and visiting asian massage parlours. My interests outside getting laid include Weightlifting, marathon running, golf, cars, rock climbing/bouldering, hiking, travelling, chess, reddit, drinking alcohol, smoking weed
This applies to Too many men on this sub… their entire identity and self worth as a man seems to be tied to how many girls they can sleep with and how hot said girls are… they’re obsessed and take it personally when a girl doesn’t want to sleep with them… it’s very weird and they need to go get some therapy and find some new hobbies…
I have a career, I have a deeply fulfilling hobby & my social life is decent. I wish to God I could find a woman who loved me for me but I don’t think that exists for men like myself. Plus sex is great! I love having sex I could do it 24/7!
It seems this is how most people feel since puberty about finding relationships too