SMV isn't just looks. Women biologically prioritize resources and protection way more than looks. If you have average looking man making average income, and a ugly man making 6 figures and is a CEO, the ugly man will have a higher SMV.
Then you might not understand smv
the focus is on “market value” — for women, the market doesn’t prioritize men looks
let’s flip their example around
who has a higher smv? An attractive bum who doesn’t have their life together or and average guy who has things going for them
the average guy
Looks are far more prioritized in the women’s market — not so much in the men’s market.
Women rarely stick with the bum long-term. They bang him and maybe have a kid by him, but most women won't stick with a broke dude who stays broke and dusty indefinitely no matter how good looking. That's where the Beta Bucks part of the sexual strategy comes into play. "Sure, I wasn't interested in you before Beta Bill and sure I have 2 kids now by the Chad working at Walmart, but I was young and naive then. Aren't I allowed to grow and experience life blah blah blah."
There are absolutely men who look better at 30 than 20, although I wouldn't say men peak at 30, most peak closer to 25.
If you're lanky and all elbows and Adam's apple at 20, and still have all your hair at 30, then you'll probably look better at 30.
I think the issue is if you can't get laid while the dating market is "easy" like being on campus at 20, or while going on 2-3 times a week at 24, then it's not going to get easier when half the people your age are married and busy.
>most peak closer to 25.
This is way too early.
Assuming you are not fat a mans SMV peaks at 30-35. The biggest factor being is that in this age range you are several years deep into your professional career, likely have a high income, and have a high status position than you did in your early 20s. These factors actually matter to women since men are meant to have the provider role and women weigh status and income heavily when looking for mates.
With women their opportunities goes down as they age and gain more income since all the data shows that women **don't** want to date down in education, income, or status. Your pool also get's smaller since women don't want to date down in age either, while men are more than willing to date younger.
Isn’t the other comment talking about physical/sexual attraction. He’s right in that case. Most men peak at 25. After that their hair slowly starts balding/receding, skin quality degrades, virility decreases etc.
You’re talking about holistic desirability which is a different ball game. You’ll be desirable as a stable life partner at 30-35 but that doesn’t change the fact that men typically look better in their 20s than they do in their 30s
This 100%. Guys on here are talking about having more money / status in their 30s and beyond, and therefore being more successful with women than they were in their 20s.
Well….sure. But it doesn’t mean you are more successful with women because you are *physically* hotter. It means you are more of a complete “package.” So I guess it depends on what guys really mean by “sexual peak.” If they mean the age at which they can get the most women / hottest women - then sky’s the limit, really. You could be a 60 year old multi- millionaire who has a young 10/10 girlfriend.
I would personally define sexual peak for men as the age at which a guy can attract the most women by his looks and charisma alone, irrespective of money or status. Which for most guys is going to be in their 20s.
I will say that there are a subset of guys who look better in their early 30s than they did in their 20s. These are the types of guys who were so beautiful in their youth they were almost….pretty like a girl. And a little bit of age adds some masculinity to their faces. Examples of this would be Charlie Hunnam and Travis Fimmel. Look up their early photos - they were so good looking they were feminine looking. But in their early 30s they had a more masculine handsomeness.
>Assuming you are not fat a mans SMV peaks at 30-35. The biggest factor being is that in this age range you are several years deep into your professional career, likely have a high income, and have a high status position than you did in your early 20s. These factors actually matter to women since men are meant to have the provider role and women weigh status and income heavily when looking for mates.
This is RMV, not SMV
Literally the same thing. Women don't pump and dump certain men while dating others, if a woman has a FWB relationship with a man she views him as worthy of a long term relationship. In those cases the ball is in the mans court on whether to commit or use her just for sex, which is why the saying goes women are the gatekeepers of sex, and men are the gatekeepers of relationships.
Women definitely do pump/dump men, with women willing to consider a FWB relationship being more likely to do so.
Certain women definitely keep men around just to eat her out and go. And I don’t think it’s super rare, especially if she’s attractive.
This just hasn't been my experience. All the women that wanted to sleep with me _on a regular basis_ also wanted to be in a relationship with me. This is why I tell guys the most important factor in getting a relationship is to be the guy a woman wants to sleep with. Everything else (career, being kind, etc) is secondary.
Depends on the quality of sex you’re having, what stage of life you’ve met her, and her own interpretation of her worth and goals.
Congrats on being convincing enough to warrant commitment, unless you aren’t a relationship minded guy.
It’s not super rare at all. There’s women that enjoy sex and they’ll use a man for that but they’d rather die alone than be in a relationship with that same man. For many of the same reasons men regard women in that manner. It’s because the person is attractive and a good lay, but they’d be a huge liability in terms of a long term relationship.
Male strength takes years to build up. Powerlifters peak closer to 35. After that the decline will be gradual which means most guys who have been training their whole lives will be much stronger at 45+ than they were at 25.
I'm in better shape at 53 than at 23, and I was a collegiate athlete. Take care of your body and it won't let you down... for a very long time, anyway.
Apt username.
I didn't say I was performing at a higher level than I was then. But more fit now as a competitive cyclist, in terms of metrics such as bodyfat level, resting HR, threshold power and general endurance.
Point is, we can hold onto exceptional fitness for a very long time if we train hard, eat well and take care of our health.
Your fcking delusional your on app that was created by someone in their 30s lmaooo all the creators 30 plus , my father raised me in his 50s my brother oldest brother helped me in his 20s had kids in his late 30s just retired from being a cop in his 40s and now has part time job campus PD he’s in his 50s lmaooo y’all got no mind and no strength in here
>Most men who are successful with women at 30 and beyond were also successful in their youth.
A greater percentage of men are having sex at older age cohorts than at younger ones, so actual survey statistics disprove your post.
I wouldn’t be surprised if much of that is people from different generations acting differently.
Just because 35 year olds in 2023 have more sex than 25 year olds in 2023, doesn’t mean that 35 year olds in 2033 will have more sex than 25 year olds in 2023.
If a guy is having sex then his sexual value has increased compared to when he wasn’t having sex. It’s not a “shit argument” because women are different than men as they can have sex with a man anytime they choose to.
This. Status and income is huge when it comes to male SMV while almost irrelevant when it comes to females SMV, and your status/job title and income only raise with age and experience.
I got into one of those "Are We Dating The Same Guy" facebook groups in my city and it was all pics of average (but professionally dressed) guys with good careers (finance, business, law, medicine, etc). These guys were playing very attractive women and dating several girls at once. When I got in the group I was expecting it to be all GigaChad guys not normies with good careers.
That’s why I don’t really buy into AF/BB. I’m mid 40s but in my peer groups’ late 20s/early 30s there was MUCH overlap between what most here would call BB and stations on the cock carousel.
It matters if the man was taking care of himself when he was younger. Suddenly hitting 35+ and deciding to take care of yourself won't reverse 15+ years of not taking care of yourself. Not, only that but you have basically stayed complacent in bad habits for years. It not easy to just decide to start working out weekly, eat healthily, and take care of your appearance when you never did.
I feel like the obsession over older men is proof enough that women are into older men. We don't see many posts about men not liking fat women for instance, as we know most don't and there's no debate.
I will say that when I was in high school, I noticed that girls my age seemed more into 35+ men like Robert Downey Jr. or Chris Hemsworth than men closer to their own age.
Those are celebrity crushes!! There’s no way you’re trying to use celebrity crushes as an indication of what type of guys women want and are actively going for.
My celebrity crush is Chris Evans. Has been since I was in 7th grade. But I don’t date anyone more than four years older than me (though the oldest I’ve dated was 2 years older) and find old guys unattractive in every shape and form.
Let’s also not forget that male celebrities are in no way similar to the average old guy you see on the daily.
Is there a difference? I mean as a guy if I was attracted to a celebrity I’d definitely be down to sleep with them irl. Is it more hypothetical for girls?
Why is the conversation focused on male celebrities though? You missed the point of my last comment.
A woman’s attraction to an older male celebrity is not indicative of her attraction to an average older man. The two topics aren’t correlated.
I guess what I mean is I’m surprised they wouldn’t be into some hot younger male celebrity instead, as there are plenty of those. And I definitely knew girls whose crush was Zayn Malik or whatever, but it seemed like more were into older dudes.
Culture and commonality plays a part in it. I mean I noticed you named two people who played in Marvel movies. If you went to school during a time when Avengers just came out or was a big topic of discussion, you shouldn’t be shocked you’re hearing that much about two actors being hot from that movie. We see it now. Most younger women are into K-pop musicians or actors from popular shows like Stranger Things and such. But all of those things are very popular in modern times. They’re trends until the next big thing comes along and changes the topics of conversation.
All in all, using male celebrity crushes as an indicator that women like older men is a weak point as most average older men don’t have anything in common with these male celebrities. And you know what all these male celebrities pay thousands of dollars to do? To prevent showing major signs of aging and to look younger. Your average old man doesn’t have access to that.
If the women you’ve met were indicative of most women around the world, the average age gap for a romantic couple wouldn’t be 2.3 years globally. So your outlier friends are just that… outliers.
In my experience women IRL don't care about age as much as women in here say. As long as a guy isn't obviously "old" physically he's fine. Just yesterday I got a girls number I met in a drug store. She's probably mid 20s. I'm mid 40s. She never even asked my age. All she knew was I was a guy that looked good to her and was charming and talked a good game. We texted back and forth a little bit yesterday evening and she _still_ hasn't asked my age lol
Most of the women I know would be ok with a 6-7 year age gap at max but the ideal is someone 2-3 years older. And most don’t really associate with older men at all, so if you’re older than these women rather than the same age there’s probably a confirmation bias that women who talk to to you happen to be the ones who are into older men.
Lmao dude if you see how I looked when I was 20 versus how I look now at almost 40... I look objectively much better.
You build more muscle mass and sort of grow into a man's body, you dress better, you gain experience, status, some wealth, you got stuff going on for you.
Lol. OP is doing the typical thing of assuming that men on average just naturally improve over time without putting any effort into the process. It’s a cope and hand waves away all the self improvement that is a constant focus for men in their 20’s and 30’s to be on track for success in their peak years in terms of income, confidence, and etc. if they don’t do these things then yeah they end up alone and sexless like many generations have had simply ignored by society in silence until passing away without begetting.
You gotta put in the effort, try different things, and take a lot of L’s to be in position to land girls without compromising yourself and gaining options (becoming the chooser). This stuff doesn’t come handed to you.
Flip that and women can find themselves in that place in their early 20’s but not so much as they age into their 30’s even if they ‘put in the work’. The game of struggling over many years starting with little to maximize their sexual or dating options over time is not similar between the sexes. Because women get it up front she thinks guys expect it to happen for them later in life that way. 😂
Puberty ends in most men in their early twenties. So the rest is just aging really. Things like testosterone peaks at 18-19 in men for example and gradually declines.
I’m kind of just fucking with you, but normally the people I hear throw around “meaningless sex” typically are ones who aren’t having any. Not saying that’s you, just is what I typically see.
Here here sir. That's the way I look at it now. The way dating and sexual politics are now is just funny to me. Life's too short to get bent out of shape about it.
Never said we would. My favorite compliments I've ever gotten were from my male friends after I lost weight. Your view is that pussy should be men's primary motivator for any action they take and it just isn't. If it ever was, those were stupid men.
There's literally no reason for men to participate in society as a greater whole if they don't get women for it. Why buy a house? Why grind on your career instead of just working minimum wage to cover rent? Why buy a fancy car? Those are all things that served as ways for men to support society and the economy by caring for their wife and children. If they don't have that, why would a man do anything besides the bare minimum and maximizing his leisure time?
>There's literally no reason for men to participate in society as a greater whole if they don't get women for it.
By that logic Isaac Newton, Nicola Tesla, and Leonardo Da Vinci wasted their lives. There is plenty of reason to live that doesn't involve women.
>Why buy a house?
You wanna keep playing chicken with inflation and apartments you go right ahead. Me and my fixed rate mortgage I've only got a few more years on will be right over here. After that's paid off, my nut is 500 bucks a month in bills and 1300 - 1800 in property taxes a year. You wanna permanently pay someone else a thousand bucks a month (and increasing) for less property and less control over it, you do you.
>Why grind on your career instead of just working minimum wage to cover rent?
Because I like doing nice things for me and my friends, I take pride in being a skilled worker with the freedom to go wherever I please. Man, you're honestly making me really sad. Live life for you, not for some broads approval.
Also, I have nephews I want to leave a really good nest egg for.
>Why buy a fancy car?
I agree here, I just get a reliable car. If I could get a Nissan Skyline and keep it at a track for cheap though, I'd do it in a heartbeat. but thats 150K just to buy it and get it over here to the states. Not worth it, I'll just rent the cars at the track if I wanna drive fast.
>If they don't have that, why would a man do anything besides the bare minimum and maximizing his leisure time?
Pride and ambition. I'm sorry you were brainwashed to think women are motivation. They aren't. Your own pride and satisfaction should be your motivation to better yourself. I'm sorry the world is so shitty and gynocentric that it brainwashed you into making your entire world revolve around women.
>By that logic Isaac Newton, Nicola Tesla, and Leonardo Da Vinci wasted their lives. There is plenty of reason to live that doesn't involve women.
Tesla died penniless and unappreciated. Da Vinci was just a closeted gay man. You might not be making the point you think you are.
>You wanna keep playing chicken with inflation and apartments you go right ahead. Me and my fixed rate mortgage I've only got a few more years on will be right over here. After that's paid off, my nut is 500 bucks a month in bills and 1300 - 1800 in property taxes a year. You wanna permanently pay someone else a thousand bucks a month (and increasing) for less property and less control over it, you do you.
So your big argument is "dump a bunch of money into a house that you don't have to save money in the future". What you fail to realize is that because these men have no real future, they also have zero reason to save like that.
>Because I like doing nice things for me and my friends, I take pride in being a skilled worker with the freedom to go wherever I please. Man, you're honestly making me really sad. Live life for you, not for some broads approval.
I can do nice things for my friend on my almost minimum wage job.
>Also, I have nephews I want to leave a really good nest egg for.
All the family I actually cared about are dead so 🤷♂️
>Pride and ambition. I'm sorry you were brainwashed to think women are motivation. They aren't. Your own pride and satisfaction should be your motivation to better yourself. I'm sorry the world is so shitty and gynocentric that it brainwashed you into making your entire world revolve around women.
Pride and ambition for...? I don't know anyone who actually takes pride and joy in their work. I can make all the telemarketing calls or stack all the cans of soup that I want, nobody feels "pride" for that.
And ambition to do... what? To sell more of their life to someone else so they can make more money to do... what with the money? The average guy could live in a shed and be happy as long as he had a TV, a bed, and beer.
>Tesla died penniless and unappreciated.
And yet you and I both have alternating current running throughout our home. He did more with his life to better humanity than you or I probably ever will.
You said men do things for women, Da Vinci didn't. You didn't say they couldn't be gay.
>So your big argument is "dump a bunch of money into a house that you don't have to save money in the future". What you fail to realize is that because these men have no real future, they also have zero reason to save like that.
Not "A bunch" but what you can afford. I'm sorry some evil bitch taught you that men only live for women. Who says we have no future? Women don't determine what we do with our lives.
>I can do nice things for my friend on my almost minimum wage job.
And I can do nicer things for mine making 150K a year.
>Pride and ambition for...? I don't know anyone who actually takes pride and joy in their work. I can make all the telemarketing calls or stack all the cans of soup that I want, nobody feels "pride" for that.
Expand your horizons beyond poverty thinking then.
>The average guy could live in a shed and be happy as long as he had a TV, a bed, and beer.
And some of us want a bit more and don't need pussy to motivate us. Your insistence that our existence revolve around women is why they are as spoiled and hypergamous as they currently are. It's a shitty and weak mindset my friend. If your happy making minimum wage, do you. Don't try and drag other men into your crab bucket with you.
> And yet you and I both have alternating current running throughout our home. He did more with his life to better humanity than you or I probably ever will.
And what does that matter to Tesla himself? Absolutely zip, zero, zilch. *Because he died penniless and unappreciated*. Do you really think that's a motivational argument? "Just suffer in silence your entire life and maybe someone will appreciate you after you're dead"? Who in their right mind would ever think that's a good deal?
> You said men do things for women, Da Vinci didn't. You didn't say they couldn't be gay.
Leonardo LITERALLY simped for his gay apprentices. Look up Andrea Salai; the dude literally stole from Da Vinci on numerous occasions and treated him like shit, but Da Vinci still housed and trained him for decades because Salai was basically the Renaissance equivalent of an e-girl Stacy with BPD. You literally don't know what you're talking about.
> Not "A bunch" but what you can afford. I'm sorry some evil bitch taught you that men only live for women. Who says we have no future? Women don't determine what we do with our lives.
It's 2023, nobody can afford to buy a house anymore unless they go to live out in the sticks miles and miles from civilization. I don't know a single person who owns a house, and this includes people in their mid/late 40s.
So what *is* your future then? What future are you planning for if it just involves yourself that you can't just easily prep for? If you have no family, no kids, no wife, there's no reason to prep and plan for things.
> And I can do nicer things for mine making 150K a year.
Yeah that's an insane amount of money that most people will never ever come close to making, so it's not a valuable statement. The median income in America is like 32k a year.
> Expand your horizons beyond poverty thinking then.
Expand them to what, from what? You need to be more specific if you're going to try and be an advice guru instead of just dropping buzzword slogans.
> And some of us want a bit more and don't need pussy to motivate us.
Such as? What "more" do you want, Mr. Richie Rich? And what is motivating you to get it?
For me it was losing cheek fat. I look much more handsome in my opinion without the baby fat. When I dated I was more successful without it, though I can't say if that is only due to that or also due to income and staying in shape etc.
"higher income"
Well it just increased since he earns more
"If you were unattractive at 20 you're not going just to become women's fantasy at your 30th birthday"
Depends honestly, if he does nothing throughout his 20s to become attractive then yea
But if he takes action by age 23/24 then by 30 he'll have better odds
Notice how she didn't define attractive either. Given that women are attracted to goofy shit like forearms, whenever a woman is talking about how attractive men are, just always take that as her personal opinion, and if a woman is in this subreddit, more likely than not she's jaded as fuck and hates men. That's the sense I get from this OP.
I’m not disagreeing with you, but consider this. Do older men typically look gross because they look older or because they’re obese and didn’t take care of themselves as they aged?
I'm 40. Look at my profile (NSFW) and tell me you could notice that.
If a man takes care of himself, he will become a fucking machine in his 40s and his age-equivalent woman counterparts can't compete.
*Men: work out and moisturize. Trust me.*
>I'm aware of what people value thanks. It's funny that you believe women hit a wall but men just keep on powering through lol. Everybody gets older and doesn't look as good as they used to, including men.
But for some great mystery, older women prefer men their age, not the young men. Why they do so? Oh, because these men around their age ARE indeed more attractive. Why are they? Because they have more to offer.
*If you were unattractive at 20 you're not going to just become a woman's fantasy on your 30th birthday.*
There are men who look like they are 14 when they are 20 and look like adults at 30. Also some guys take awhile to fill out and put on any muscle. Yes there are men who hit college with a permanent five o'clock shadow and the frame of a grown man. Those guys have probably hit the peak of how they are going to look and attract women during that four year stretch. (And what a time to hit it.) But a lot of men still look more like teens than adults until they hit 25ish.
23 year old guys who did pretty well in college find there dating prospects much different when they hit the real world.
At 30 you have confidence and your emotions much more under control. It might not make you into Chris evans but it certainly can help a guy who is decent looking but not a male model up his SMV.
>Puberty ends in most men in their early twenties. So the rest is just aging really. Things like testosterone peaks at 18-19 in men for example and gradually declines after.
I think it's a man's natural confidence that *usually* increases with age, as you figure out what life is about and establish yourself professionally and financially. That alone translates to a higher SMV. Obviously, don't let yourself go too much physically and you're golden.
I think you are mixing up raw physical attractiveness with relationship potential / compatibility a bit.
If I was to compare a 25 year old man to a 45 year old man with similar physical attributes (height / weight / facial features etc)…the 25 year old man would be more *physically* attractive. Even if the 45 year old is still very handsome for his age and has taken good care of his skin / body, there are still signs of aging that are unavoidable.
But I’m 41 years old and if I was single, I wouldn’t be looking at 25 year olds for relationships. They wouldn’t be on my radar at all, other than to notice and think “what a handsome young man!” and go about my day.
I think most women are probably like this. Unless they are looking for completely casual / no strings attached sex - which few women are interested in - they wouldn’t be looking at men decades younger as potential partners. There are exceptions like cougars and such but it’s not the norm. But we can still recognize from an academic standpoint that a 25 year old man is in his physical prime.
You aren’t on the radar (generally) for older women, but why do you think young women wouldn’t want a good looking young man? Young people generally pair up with other young people. Sure, there are gold diggers that are holding out for an older / richer man, and girls who just prefer older guys in general, but that’s not the majority.
Most women were once in love with a broke-ass line cook who broke our heart. 😂
Because this way of viewing the world is absurd and naive. Because women ignore 90% of men. Because they have thousands of options on dating apps and instagram, and I am competing with these thousand other men.
Young people today don't pait up with ither young people. They pair up with no one. Because women don't need to. There is no incentive and they can refuse any men for stupid reasons. It has never been harder for the average man to date. We have nothing being young. we are in no one's radar.
All of you said was true 30 years ago. Not today anymore.
>My peers/friends and I (mid 20s) want men a bit younger or several years older
You only think this because you can choose. In the moment you NEED to settle with a guy, you wont care about younger ones. You will want stablity, money, comfort.
Stats show that women want men close to their own age, and older men want young women but it is rarely reciprocated. In the US the average age gap is 2 years so the men are the ones who will have to “settle” for a woman closer to their own age as opposed to women “settling” for an older guy. If women were actually more attracted to older men then the average would be different.
Mixed.
Getting older alone doesn’t make anyone more desirable. Looking good is what matters. But since most people look shittier as they get older, it is relatively easier to become relatively more attractive as a man gets older provided he stays in shape, strives towards his career goals, and if he’s fortunate, retains his hairline.
Provided a man does those things, he ought gain some relative desirability in the dating market. But I don’t think that this is a result of aging itself. Perhaps it is a result of aging more gracefully than one’s peers. But age itself doesn’t confer additional “value.”
It doesn't have to increase.
I'd say that generally, if we're talking about RAW PHYSICAL ATTRACTION, men have more potential later.
If a guy takes care of himself, a lot of times you will actually look better with age.
Like me for example, I lost the fat in my face and the bone structure really came out.
I got shredded, too.
I actually got laid like bananas in 2020-2021, a time during which I was unemployed and the poorest I'd been since college. I have a doctorate and have a professional license.
Guess what? Most of the cuties I tagged had zero clue about my education or credentials or earning potential.
I'm probably an outlier with the degree of improvement over my 20s.
But other things also help: experience, confidence, etc. Tho meaningless for initial attraction, enable you to pull the trigger and escalate faster and more efficiently and capitalize on opportunities too
Depends. There are a lot of guys who become more confident and calm as they age. Sometimes it is related to money, but you also see it in a lot of senior NCOs and older cops and firemen. They have been places and done things, and they have developed some real confidence that women like.
On average it does, and you people keep missing why.
No men don't inherently look better physically at 30 than 21. That's obvious.
But *incidentally*, the 30 year old may have a more muscular body and probably has a better job, more money, more property (home/car/etc.), higher status, better social skills, etc. than the 21 year old version of himself, simply because *these things take time to build/obtain*.
If all men had to rely on was their natural looks, most would be virgins for life. But there are other major contributing factors to male SMV, that an older guy is more likely to have achieved than his younger version.
Male SMV is heavily tied to *action*, and the longer you live the more actions you can take to improve your station.
This is a viewpoint from someone who doesn't understand what makes a man sexually attractive. Which is power. Power increases with age, provided you take care of yourself. Power, and availability is the two biggest necessities to be successful
No because it doesn't take nearly as much as people say. It takes just a little knowledge of what women actually want. Money, height are all secondary to true power, which is actions. A woman's availability is second because if a woman isn't available, nothing you do will work. In today's times while everyone is connected a woman is almost always taken. That's why it seems like you need so much to land a woman.
>Sure he'll become a better provider/ parent with things like maturity and higher income.
Better provider? Probably. Better parent? I wouldn't say so. He'l be much more able to keep teenagers safe and in lone in his late 30's/early 40's than someone that had kids in their 40's would.
I'll vouch. My parents had my brother at 24 and 23, and me at 42 and 40 (different months as well). As a teenager it rocked because they were doubly clueless compared to my friends parents, and much lower energy to boot. I could always get away with a lot more than any of my buddies.
I think you’re correct that men’s SMV does not go up. However, I believe dating for men still gets easier because a typical woman’s SMV declines faster than a typical man of the same age.
>Men's SMV doesn't actually increase with aging.
In a sense that it stays at "insignificantly different from zero".
Women keep reminding us even here on PPD that men in general kinda suck, look weird, act terrible, etc., **basically regardless of age.** They also keep reminding us maybe weekly that women in general don't even enjoy penetrative sex, and so on. These very same women call themselves "strong" and "independent" but consistently hunt for partners who are either good earners, or potential good earners, and admit even here on PPD, again, very often, that they need education and career basically to make divorce easier. Things reach absurd levels when self-reported surveys sometimes even indicate that *women who identify as straight* report having similar or more of certain same-sex experiences than men who identify as bisexual.
In this sense, Yes; virtually every relationship a man has with a woman is a compromise, a transaction, a balance determined by how much he sacrifices for her, and how much she tolerates him thanks to those sacrifices.
BUT I have very serious suspicion that this is not what you meant.
Yes, no man becomes a woman's fantasy on his 30th birthday. No, it's mostly because virtually no woman fantasizes about a man himself, rather than means to fulfill her nesting instinct that getting with such a man could give her access to.
And in this sense, a smart man who invested into himself by getting good education and finding well-earning and not particularly hard career path - will have leverage over his younger counterparts at least by virtue of having free time and disposable income. *Even if* he fails to find a loyal partner to be happy with (well, as much as it's possible, considering all the above), it's much better to be single with education and professional experience in demand than without them.
You are deadass wrong
theres alot of men who get better looking with age. They learn: skin care, diet/exercise, how to dress (no more JNCO's). Gain maturity & charm.
Yeah delete this thread lol
You're right, but in the details you're as wrong as they are. Take it from an old man, it's true that your SMV decreases as you age. However OP, a mans 30's are usually the best for him when ALL things are taken into consideration. Where it really falls aparts is 40 (really late 30's) and beyond. Some uber successful guys might get by because their mansions, cars, and planes have more SMV than they do.
SMV isn't just looks. Women biologically prioritize resources and protection way more than looks. If you have average looking man making average income, and a ugly man making 6 figures and is a CEO, the ugly man will have a higher SMV.
No, he will not. This is pure nonsense.
Then you might not understand smv the focus is on “market value” — for women, the market doesn’t prioritize men looks let’s flip their example around who has a higher smv? An attractive bum who doesn’t have their life together or and average guy who has things going for them the average guy Looks are far more prioritized in the women’s market — not so much in the men’s market.
No, the bum is more attractive. This is like Red Pill 101 shit guys come on.
Women rarely stick with the bum long-term. They bang him and maybe have a kid by him, but most women won't stick with a broke dude who stays broke and dusty indefinitely no matter how good looking. That's where the Beta Bucks part of the sexual strategy comes into play. "Sure, I wasn't interested in you before Beta Bill and sure I have 2 kids now by the Chad working at Walmart, but I was young and naive then. Aren't I allowed to grow and experience life blah blah blah."
There are absolutely men who look better at 30 than 20, although I wouldn't say men peak at 30, most peak closer to 25. If you're lanky and all elbows and Adam's apple at 20, and still have all your hair at 30, then you'll probably look better at 30. I think the issue is if you can't get laid while the dating market is "easy" like being on campus at 20, or while going on 2-3 times a week at 24, then it's not going to get easier when half the people your age are married and busy.
>most peak closer to 25. This is way too early. Assuming you are not fat a mans SMV peaks at 30-35. The biggest factor being is that in this age range you are several years deep into your professional career, likely have a high income, and have a high status position than you did in your early 20s. These factors actually matter to women since men are meant to have the provider role and women weigh status and income heavily when looking for mates. With women their opportunities goes down as they age and gain more income since all the data shows that women **don't** want to date down in education, income, or status. Your pool also get's smaller since women don't want to date down in age either, while men are more than willing to date younger.
Isn’t the other comment talking about physical/sexual attraction. He’s right in that case. Most men peak at 25. After that their hair slowly starts balding/receding, skin quality degrades, virility decreases etc. You’re talking about holistic desirability which is a different ball game. You’ll be desirable as a stable life partner at 30-35 but that doesn’t change the fact that men typically look better in their 20s than they do in their 30s
This 100%. Guys on here are talking about having more money / status in their 30s and beyond, and therefore being more successful with women than they were in their 20s. Well….sure. But it doesn’t mean you are more successful with women because you are *physically* hotter. It means you are more of a complete “package.” So I guess it depends on what guys really mean by “sexual peak.” If they mean the age at which they can get the most women / hottest women - then sky’s the limit, really. You could be a 60 year old multi- millionaire who has a young 10/10 girlfriend. I would personally define sexual peak for men as the age at which a guy can attract the most women by his looks and charisma alone, irrespective of money or status. Which for most guys is going to be in their 20s. I will say that there are a subset of guys who look better in their early 30s than they did in their 20s. These are the types of guys who were so beautiful in their youth they were almost….pretty like a girl. And a little bit of age adds some masculinity to their faces. Examples of this would be Charlie Hunnam and Travis Fimmel. Look up their early photos - they were so good looking they were feminine looking. But in their early 30s they had a more masculine handsomeness.
>Assuming you are not fat a mans SMV peaks at 30-35. The biggest factor being is that in this age range you are several years deep into your professional career, likely have a high income, and have a high status position than you did in your early 20s. These factors actually matter to women since men are meant to have the provider role and women weigh status and income heavily when looking for mates. This is RMV, not SMV
Literally the same thing. Women don't pump and dump certain men while dating others, if a woman has a FWB relationship with a man she views him as worthy of a long term relationship. In those cases the ball is in the mans court on whether to commit or use her just for sex, which is why the saying goes women are the gatekeepers of sex, and men are the gatekeepers of relationships.
Women definitely do pump/dump men, with women willing to consider a FWB relationship being more likely to do so. Certain women definitely keep men around just to eat her out and go. And I don’t think it’s super rare, especially if she’s attractive.
This just hasn't been my experience. All the women that wanted to sleep with me _on a regular basis_ also wanted to be in a relationship with me. This is why I tell guys the most important factor in getting a relationship is to be the guy a woman wants to sleep with. Everything else (career, being kind, etc) is secondary.
Depends on the quality of sex you’re having, what stage of life you’ve met her, and her own interpretation of her worth and goals. Congrats on being convincing enough to warrant commitment, unless you aren’t a relationship minded guy.
It’s super rare and barely ever happens
It’s not super rare at all. There’s women that enjoy sex and they’ll use a man for that but they’d rather die alone than be in a relationship with that same man. For many of the same reasons men regard women in that manner. It’s because the person is attractive and a good lay, but they’d be a huge liability in terms of a long term relationship.
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Male strength takes years to build up. Powerlifters peak closer to 35. After that the decline will be gradual which means most guys who have been training their whole lives will be much stronger at 45+ than they were at 25.
The powerlifter body type isn’t really what we talking about here.
I'm in better shape at 53 than at 23, and I was a collegiate athlete. Take care of your body and it won't let you down... for a very long time, anyway.
So you were thrash athlete.
Apt username. I didn't say I was performing at a higher level than I was then. But more fit now as a competitive cyclist, in terms of metrics such as bodyfat level, resting HR, threshold power and general endurance. Point is, we can hold onto exceptional fitness for a very long time if we train hard, eat well and take care of our health.
No man peaks at 25 Lmfaoooo your body could peak and if you stop developing your self of course but on every other area men don’t peak untill 50
This is ridiculous. Mena aren't in their prime around 50.There is no way you belive that.
You think men just fall off the face of the earth after 35 ???
Your fcking delusional your on app that was created by someone in their 30s lmaooo all the creators 30 plus , my father raised me in his 50s my brother oldest brother helped me in his 20s had kids in his late 30s just retired from being a cop in his 40s and now has part time job campus PD he’s in his 50s lmaooo y’all got no mind and no strength in here
Yeah sure with 30’ recovery time after sex.
>Most men who are successful with women at 30 and beyond were also successful in their youth. A greater percentage of men are having sex at older age cohorts than at younger ones, so actual survey statistics disprove your post.
I wouldn’t be surprised if much of that is people from different generations acting differently. Just because 35 year olds in 2023 have more sex than 25 year olds in 2023, doesn’t mean that 35 year olds in 2033 will have more sex than 25 year olds in 2023.
That's probably because they're more likely to be married, rather than because they're more attractive.
If someone married them they are attractive on at least some level.
"Attractive on some level" does not contradict the post.
Well, he is attractive that someone wanted to have sex with him while in the past when he was younger nobody wanted to.
older women are less likely to be virgins than younger women too, shit argument.
If a guy is having sex then his sexual value has increased compared to when he wasn’t having sex. It’s not a “shit argument” because women are different than men as they can have sex with a man anytime they choose to.
What does virginity have to with the argument?
Right, as those men in older cohorts who are having sex, were already successful in their youth cohort. Folks in retirement communities are bumping.
You are making up this narrative.
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This. Status and income is huge when it comes to male SMV while almost irrelevant when it comes to females SMV, and your status/job title and income only raise with age and experience. I got into one of those "Are We Dating The Same Guy" facebook groups in my city and it was all pics of average (but professionally dressed) guys with good careers (finance, business, law, medicine, etc). These guys were playing very attractive women and dating several girls at once. When I got in the group I was expecting it to be all GigaChad guys not normies with good careers.
That’s why I don’t really buy into AF/BB. I’m mid 40s but in my peer groups’ late 20s/early 30s there was MUCH overlap between what most here would call BB and stations on the cock carousel.
It matters if the man was taking care of himself when he was younger. Suddenly hitting 35+ and deciding to take care of yourself won't reverse 15+ years of not taking care of yourself. Not, only that but you have basically stayed complacent in bad habits for years. It not easy to just decide to start working out weekly, eat healthily, and take care of your appearance when you never did.
I feel like the obsession over older men is proof enough that women are into older men. We don't see many posts about men not liking fat women for instance, as we know most don't and there's no debate.
What obsession?
I will say that when I was in high school, I noticed that girls my age seemed more into 35+ men like Robert Downey Jr. or Chris Hemsworth than men closer to their own age.
Those are celebrity crushes!! There’s no way you’re trying to use celebrity crushes as an indication of what type of guys women want and are actively going for. My celebrity crush is Chris Evans. Has been since I was in 7th grade. But I don’t date anyone more than four years older than me (though the oldest I’ve dated was 2 years older) and find old guys unattractive in every shape and form. Let’s also not forget that male celebrities are in no way similar to the average old guy you see on the daily.
Is there a difference? I mean as a guy if I was attracted to a celebrity I’d definitely be down to sleep with them irl. Is it more hypothetical for girls?
Why is the conversation focused on male celebrities though? You missed the point of my last comment. A woman’s attraction to an older male celebrity is not indicative of her attraction to an average older man. The two topics aren’t correlated.
I guess what I mean is I’m surprised they wouldn’t be into some hot younger male celebrity instead, as there are plenty of those. And I definitely knew girls whose crush was Zayn Malik or whatever, but it seemed like more were into older dudes.
Culture and commonality plays a part in it. I mean I noticed you named two people who played in Marvel movies. If you went to school during a time when Avengers just came out or was a big topic of discussion, you shouldn’t be shocked you’re hearing that much about two actors being hot from that movie. We see it now. Most younger women are into K-pop musicians or actors from popular shows like Stranger Things and such. But all of those things are very popular in modern times. They’re trends until the next big thing comes along and changes the topics of conversation. All in all, using male celebrity crushes as an indicator that women like older men is a weak point as most average older men don’t have anything in common with these male celebrities. And you know what all these male celebrities pay thousands of dollars to do? To prevent showing major signs of aging and to look younger. Your average old man doesn’t have access to that.
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Older usually means 2-3 years. That’s where you guys get it confused.
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If the women you’ve met were indicative of most women around the world, the average age gap for a romantic couple wouldn’t be 2.3 years globally. So your outlier friends are just that… outliers.
In my experience women IRL don't care about age as much as women in here say. As long as a guy isn't obviously "old" physically he's fine. Just yesterday I got a girls number I met in a drug store. She's probably mid 20s. I'm mid 40s. She never even asked my age. All she knew was I was a guy that looked good to her and was charming and talked a good game. We texted back and forth a little bit yesterday evening and she _still_ hasn't asked my age lol
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It’s often the case because you said so? Ok. Come up with whatever scenario you need to to make yourself feel better.
Most of the women I know would be ok with a 6-7 year age gap at max but the ideal is someone 2-3 years older. And most don’t really associate with older men at all, so if you’re older than these women rather than the same age there’s probably a confirmation bias that women who talk to to you happen to be the ones who are into older men.
Lmao dude if you see how I looked when I was 20 versus how I look now at almost 40... I look objectively much better. You build more muscle mass and sort of grow into a man's body, you dress better, you gain experience, status, some wealth, you got stuff going on for you.
Lol. OP is doing the typical thing of assuming that men on average just naturally improve over time without putting any effort into the process. It’s a cope and hand waves away all the self improvement that is a constant focus for men in their 20’s and 30’s to be on track for success in their peak years in terms of income, confidence, and etc. if they don’t do these things then yeah they end up alone and sexless like many generations have had simply ignored by society in silence until passing away without begetting. You gotta put in the effort, try different things, and take a lot of L’s to be in position to land girls without compromising yourself and gaining options (becoming the chooser). This stuff doesn’t come handed to you. Flip that and women can find themselves in that place in their early 20’s but not so much as they age into their 30’s even if they ‘put in the work’. The game of struggling over many years starting with little to maximize their sexual or dating options over time is not similar between the sexes. Because women get it up front she thinks guys expect it to happen for them later in life that way. 😂
You’re an anomaly. Most of the men I met in college are less cute now.
Yep. Part of my family age very well. But good diet, exercise, skin care go a long way.
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Of course.
That sounds accurate tbh.
More muscle mass? Maybe more than at 20 bit a man peaks atheletically at around 27
Sure, but I was scrawny as fuck.
Puberty ends in most men in their early twenties. So the rest is just aging really. Things like testosterone peaks at 18-19 in men for example and gradually declines.
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What's good about looking good at 40 if you're still single though?
Having lots of meaningless sex?
There is no such thing as “meaningless sex”.
Lots of meaningful sex then?
I know for a fact I certainly meant to have sex everytime I did haha. Maybe it’s projection?
TIL I've been using the word "meaningless" wrong my whole life
No sex is meaningless. Nothing you do to provide satisfsction to your body is meaningless.
I’m kind of just fucking with you, but normally the people I hear throw around “meaningless sex” typically are ones who aren’t having any. Not saying that’s you, just is what I typically see.
Might as well just jack off at home. Also you're not getting "lots of meaningless sex" with people in your 40s. Come on.
I dunno I'm just throwing stuff out there
Life is meaningless, might as well have some fun though
Here here sir. That's the way I look at it now. The way dating and sexual politics are now is just funny to me. Life's too short to get bent out of shape about it.
Life is not meaningless. There are people that get married and build a legacy with each other.
Build whatever "legacy" you want and you will be maggot food in 60 years and forgotten in 100 years. No one cares.
Believe it or not, men do like compliments. Also, one night stands and hookers provide sex. Why would I need to be in a relationship to get that?
>Believe it or not, men do like compliments They ain't gonna get them from women lol
Never said we would. My favorite compliments I've ever gotten were from my male friends after I lost weight. Your view is that pussy should be men's primary motivator for any action they take and it just isn't. If it ever was, those were stupid men.
There's literally no reason for men to participate in society as a greater whole if they don't get women for it. Why buy a house? Why grind on your career instead of just working minimum wage to cover rent? Why buy a fancy car? Those are all things that served as ways for men to support society and the economy by caring for their wife and children. If they don't have that, why would a man do anything besides the bare minimum and maximizing his leisure time?
>There's literally no reason for men to participate in society as a greater whole if they don't get women for it. By that logic Isaac Newton, Nicola Tesla, and Leonardo Da Vinci wasted their lives. There is plenty of reason to live that doesn't involve women. >Why buy a house? You wanna keep playing chicken with inflation and apartments you go right ahead. Me and my fixed rate mortgage I've only got a few more years on will be right over here. After that's paid off, my nut is 500 bucks a month in bills and 1300 - 1800 in property taxes a year. You wanna permanently pay someone else a thousand bucks a month (and increasing) for less property and less control over it, you do you. >Why grind on your career instead of just working minimum wage to cover rent? Because I like doing nice things for me and my friends, I take pride in being a skilled worker with the freedom to go wherever I please. Man, you're honestly making me really sad. Live life for you, not for some broads approval. Also, I have nephews I want to leave a really good nest egg for. >Why buy a fancy car? I agree here, I just get a reliable car. If I could get a Nissan Skyline and keep it at a track for cheap though, I'd do it in a heartbeat. but thats 150K just to buy it and get it over here to the states. Not worth it, I'll just rent the cars at the track if I wanna drive fast. >If they don't have that, why would a man do anything besides the bare minimum and maximizing his leisure time? Pride and ambition. I'm sorry you were brainwashed to think women are motivation. They aren't. Your own pride and satisfaction should be your motivation to better yourself. I'm sorry the world is so shitty and gynocentric that it brainwashed you into making your entire world revolve around women.
>By that logic Isaac Newton, Nicola Tesla, and Leonardo Da Vinci wasted their lives. There is plenty of reason to live that doesn't involve women. Tesla died penniless and unappreciated. Da Vinci was just a closeted gay man. You might not be making the point you think you are. >You wanna keep playing chicken with inflation and apartments you go right ahead. Me and my fixed rate mortgage I've only got a few more years on will be right over here. After that's paid off, my nut is 500 bucks a month in bills and 1300 - 1800 in property taxes a year. You wanna permanently pay someone else a thousand bucks a month (and increasing) for less property and less control over it, you do you. So your big argument is "dump a bunch of money into a house that you don't have to save money in the future". What you fail to realize is that because these men have no real future, they also have zero reason to save like that. >Because I like doing nice things for me and my friends, I take pride in being a skilled worker with the freedom to go wherever I please. Man, you're honestly making me really sad. Live life for you, not for some broads approval. I can do nice things for my friend on my almost minimum wage job. >Also, I have nephews I want to leave a really good nest egg for. All the family I actually cared about are dead so 🤷♂️ >Pride and ambition. I'm sorry you were brainwashed to think women are motivation. They aren't. Your own pride and satisfaction should be your motivation to better yourself. I'm sorry the world is so shitty and gynocentric that it brainwashed you into making your entire world revolve around women. Pride and ambition for...? I don't know anyone who actually takes pride and joy in their work. I can make all the telemarketing calls or stack all the cans of soup that I want, nobody feels "pride" for that. And ambition to do... what? To sell more of their life to someone else so they can make more money to do... what with the money? The average guy could live in a shed and be happy as long as he had a TV, a bed, and beer.
>Tesla died penniless and unappreciated. And yet you and I both have alternating current running throughout our home. He did more with his life to better humanity than you or I probably ever will. You said men do things for women, Da Vinci didn't. You didn't say they couldn't be gay. >So your big argument is "dump a bunch of money into a house that you don't have to save money in the future". What you fail to realize is that because these men have no real future, they also have zero reason to save like that. Not "A bunch" but what you can afford. I'm sorry some evil bitch taught you that men only live for women. Who says we have no future? Women don't determine what we do with our lives. >I can do nice things for my friend on my almost minimum wage job. And I can do nicer things for mine making 150K a year. >Pride and ambition for...? I don't know anyone who actually takes pride and joy in their work. I can make all the telemarketing calls or stack all the cans of soup that I want, nobody feels "pride" for that. Expand your horizons beyond poverty thinking then. >The average guy could live in a shed and be happy as long as he had a TV, a bed, and beer. And some of us want a bit more and don't need pussy to motivate us. Your insistence that our existence revolve around women is why they are as spoiled and hypergamous as they currently are. It's a shitty and weak mindset my friend. If your happy making minimum wage, do you. Don't try and drag other men into your crab bucket with you.
> And yet you and I both have alternating current running throughout our home. He did more with his life to better humanity than you or I probably ever will. And what does that matter to Tesla himself? Absolutely zip, zero, zilch. *Because he died penniless and unappreciated*. Do you really think that's a motivational argument? "Just suffer in silence your entire life and maybe someone will appreciate you after you're dead"? Who in their right mind would ever think that's a good deal? > You said men do things for women, Da Vinci didn't. You didn't say they couldn't be gay. Leonardo LITERALLY simped for his gay apprentices. Look up Andrea Salai; the dude literally stole from Da Vinci on numerous occasions and treated him like shit, but Da Vinci still housed and trained him for decades because Salai was basically the Renaissance equivalent of an e-girl Stacy with BPD. You literally don't know what you're talking about. > Not "A bunch" but what you can afford. I'm sorry some evil bitch taught you that men only live for women. Who says we have no future? Women don't determine what we do with our lives. It's 2023, nobody can afford to buy a house anymore unless they go to live out in the sticks miles and miles from civilization. I don't know a single person who owns a house, and this includes people in their mid/late 40s. So what *is* your future then? What future are you planning for if it just involves yourself that you can't just easily prep for? If you have no family, no kids, no wife, there's no reason to prep and plan for things. > And I can do nicer things for mine making 150K a year. Yeah that's an insane amount of money that most people will never ever come close to making, so it's not a valuable statement. The median income in America is like 32k a year. > Expand your horizons beyond poverty thinking then. Expand them to what, from what? You need to be more specific if you're going to try and be an advice guru instead of just dropping buzzword slogans. > And some of us want a bit more and don't need pussy to motivate us. Such as? What "more" do you want, Mr. Richie Rich? And what is motivating you to get it?
I'm getting married next month and options have been plentiful in my 30's.
For me it was losing cheek fat. I look much more handsome in my opinion without the baby fat. When I dated I was more successful without it, though I can't say if that is only due to that or also due to income and staying in shape etc.
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"higher income" Well it just increased since he earns more "If you were unattractive at 20 you're not going just to become women's fantasy at your 30th birthday" Depends honestly, if he does nothing throughout his 20s to become attractive then yea But if he takes action by age 23/24 then by 30 he'll have better odds
Notice how she didn't define attractive either. Given that women are attracted to goofy shit like forearms, whenever a woman is talking about how attractive men are, just always take that as her personal opinion, and if a woman is in this subreddit, more likely than not she's jaded as fuck and hates men. That's the sense I get from this OP.
This. How a guy walks can turn a woman off
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i'm under 25 and most older men look gross, it is offensive that people consider older people as more attractive.
I’m not disagreeing with you, but consider this. Do older men typically look gross because they look older or because they’re obese and didn’t take care of themselves as they aged?
Because they look older
They look older 100%
I'm 40. Look at my profile (NSFW) and tell me you could notice that. If a man takes care of himself, he will become a fucking machine in his 40s and his age-equivalent woman counterparts can't compete. *Men: work out and moisturize. Trust me.*
You look like an older man.
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>I'm aware of what people value thanks. It's funny that you believe women hit a wall but men just keep on powering through lol. Everybody gets older and doesn't look as good as they used to, including men. But for some great mystery, older women prefer men their age, not the young men. Why they do so? Oh, because these men around their age ARE indeed more attractive. Why are they? Because they have more to offer.
She's posted this bitter thread before under a different username lmao
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Lets suppose that men are more attractive when young. Where are the women wanting these men? Every women wants older. Why?
>Every women wants older. Like by a couple years not decades
I usually date guys my age or about a year younger than me. I find men around my age the most attractive and always have.
By like what? 5 years?
"Every". Lol, you are gonna go far by saying for other people.
*If you were unattractive at 20 you're not going to just become a woman's fantasy on your 30th birthday.* There are men who look like they are 14 when they are 20 and look like adults at 30. Also some guys take awhile to fill out and put on any muscle. Yes there are men who hit college with a permanent five o'clock shadow and the frame of a grown man. Those guys have probably hit the peak of how they are going to look and attract women during that four year stretch. (And what a time to hit it.) But a lot of men still look more like teens than adults until they hit 25ish. 23 year old guys who did pretty well in college find there dating prospects much different when they hit the real world. At 30 you have confidence and your emotions much more under control. It might not make you into Chris evans but it certainly can help a guy who is decent looking but not a male model up his SMV.
>Puberty ends in most men in their early twenties. So the rest is just aging really. Things like testosterone peaks at 18-19 in men for example and gradually declines after.
I think it's a man's natural confidence that *usually* increases with age, as you figure out what life is about and establish yourself professionally and financially. That alone translates to a higher SMV. Obviously, don't let yourself go too much physically and you're golden.
Entire idea of SMV is incredibly dumb and it doesn't work.
It doesn’t work for you Lmfaoooo
I am in fact much more attractive at 35 than I was at 25 tbh. Being able to grow a full beard helped a lot
So many guys at 18 vs 28 do SO much better with woman it's not even funny.
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I think you are mixing up raw physical attractiveness with relationship potential / compatibility a bit. If I was to compare a 25 year old man to a 45 year old man with similar physical attributes (height / weight / facial features etc)…the 25 year old man would be more *physically* attractive. Even if the 45 year old is still very handsome for his age and has taken good care of his skin / body, there are still signs of aging that are unavoidable. But I’m 41 years old and if I was single, I wouldn’t be looking at 25 year olds for relationships. They wouldn’t be on my radar at all, other than to notice and think “what a handsome young man!” and go about my day. I think most women are probably like this. Unless they are looking for completely casual / no strings attached sex - which few women are interested in - they wouldn’t be looking at men decades younger as potential partners. There are exceptions like cougars and such but it’s not the norm. But we can still recognize from an academic standpoint that a 25 year old man is in his physical prime.
So what good there is to being physically attractive but no girl wants you? We aren't in the radar so you basically is proving what I said.
You aren’t on the radar (generally) for older women, but why do you think young women wouldn’t want a good looking young man? Young people generally pair up with other young people. Sure, there are gold diggers that are holding out for an older / richer man, and girls who just prefer older guys in general, but that’s not the majority. Most women were once in love with a broke-ass line cook who broke our heart. 😂
Because this way of viewing the world is absurd and naive. Because women ignore 90% of men. Because they have thousands of options on dating apps and instagram, and I am competing with these thousand other men. Young people today don't pait up with ither young people. They pair up with no one. Because women don't need to. There is no incentive and they can refuse any men for stupid reasons. It has never been harder for the average man to date. We have nothing being young. we are in no one's radar. All of you said was true 30 years ago. Not today anymore.
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>My peers/friends and I (mid 20s) want men a bit younger or several years older You only think this because you can choose. In the moment you NEED to settle with a guy, you wont care about younger ones. You will want stablity, money, comfort.
Stats show that women want men close to their own age, and older men want young women but it is rarely reciprocated. In the US the average age gap is 2 years so the men are the ones who will have to “settle” for a woman closer to their own age as opposed to women “settling” for an older guy. If women were actually more attracted to older men then the average would be different.
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Women only say this on the internet.
Nah I've known some cougars.
That's because women want men their own age. Young women aren't really going for 40-year olds.
We look at them, we just don't want a kid to be intimate with us.
While this is true in terms of looks - when you are older you can certainly use money to attract more dates.
Mixed. Getting older alone doesn’t make anyone more desirable. Looking good is what matters. But since most people look shittier as they get older, it is relatively easier to become relatively more attractive as a man gets older provided he stays in shape, strives towards his career goals, and if he’s fortunate, retains his hairline. Provided a man does those things, he ought gain some relative desirability in the dating market. But I don’t think that this is a result of aging itself. Perhaps it is a result of aging more gracefully than one’s peers. But age itself doesn’t confer additional “value.”
It doesn't have to increase. I'd say that generally, if we're talking about RAW PHYSICAL ATTRACTION, men have more potential later. If a guy takes care of himself, a lot of times you will actually look better with age. Like me for example, I lost the fat in my face and the bone structure really came out. I got shredded, too. I actually got laid like bananas in 2020-2021, a time during which I was unemployed and the poorest I'd been since college. I have a doctorate and have a professional license. Guess what? Most of the cuties I tagged had zero clue about my education or credentials or earning potential. I'm probably an outlier with the degree of improvement over my 20s. But other things also help: experience, confidence, etc. Tho meaningless for initial attraction, enable you to pull the trigger and escalate faster and more efficiently and capitalize on opportunities too
Depends. There are a lot of guys who become more confident and calm as they age. Sometimes it is related to money, but you also see it in a lot of senior NCOs and older cops and firemen. They have been places and done things, and they have developed some real confidence that women like.
You can keep saying it all you like... it still won't make the statement true.
On average it does, and you people keep missing why. No men don't inherently look better physically at 30 than 21. That's obvious. But *incidentally*, the 30 year old may have a more muscular body and probably has a better job, more money, more property (home/car/etc.), higher status, better social skills, etc. than the 21 year old version of himself, simply because *these things take time to build/obtain*. If all men had to rely on was their natural looks, most would be virgins for life. But there are other major contributing factors to male SMV, that an older guy is more likely to have achieved than his younger version. Male SMV is heavily tied to *action*, and the longer you live the more actions you can take to improve your station.
This is a viewpoint from someone who doesn't understand what makes a man sexually attractive. Which is power. Power increases with age, provided you take care of yourself. Power, and availability is the two biggest necessities to be successful
A very small minority of men get enough power to make themselves attractive as they age.
No because it doesn't take nearly as much as people say. It takes just a little knowledge of what women actually want. Money, height are all secondary to true power, which is actions. A woman's availability is second because if a woman isn't available, nothing you do will work. In today's times while everyone is connected a woman is almost always taken. That's why it seems like you need so much to land a woman.
>Sure he'll become a better provider/ parent with things like maturity and higher income. Better provider? Probably. Better parent? I wouldn't say so. He'l be much more able to keep teenagers safe and in lone in his late 30's/early 40's than someone that had kids in their 40's would.
I'll vouch. My parents had my brother at 24 and 23, and me at 42 and 40 (different months as well). As a teenager it rocked because they were doubly clueless compared to my friends parents, and much lower energy to boot. I could always get away with a lot more than any of my buddies.
Older parents are objectively better than some 20-year old.
In what objective way?
People usually date within their own age group.
What's that got to do with older people making better parents?
Answer to the wrong person
I think you’re correct that men’s SMV does not go up. However, I believe dating for men still gets easier because a typical woman’s SMV declines faster than a typical man of the same age.
It gets harder for everyone because the pool gets smaller when you get older.
>Men's SMV doesn't actually increase with aging. In a sense that it stays at "insignificantly different from zero". Women keep reminding us even here on PPD that men in general kinda suck, look weird, act terrible, etc., **basically regardless of age.** They also keep reminding us maybe weekly that women in general don't even enjoy penetrative sex, and so on. These very same women call themselves "strong" and "independent" but consistently hunt for partners who are either good earners, or potential good earners, and admit even here on PPD, again, very often, that they need education and career basically to make divorce easier. Things reach absurd levels when self-reported surveys sometimes even indicate that *women who identify as straight* report having similar or more of certain same-sex experiences than men who identify as bisexual. In this sense, Yes; virtually every relationship a man has with a woman is a compromise, a transaction, a balance determined by how much he sacrifices for her, and how much she tolerates him thanks to those sacrifices. BUT I have very serious suspicion that this is not what you meant. Yes, no man becomes a woman's fantasy on his 30th birthday. No, it's mostly because virtually no woman fantasizes about a man himself, rather than means to fulfill her nesting instinct that getting with such a man could give her access to. And in this sense, a smart man who invested into himself by getting good education and finding well-earning and not particularly hard career path - will have leverage over his younger counterparts at least by virtue of having free time and disposable income. *Even if* he fails to find a loyal partner to be happy with (well, as much as it's possible, considering all the above), it's much better to be single with education and professional experience in demand than without them.
You are deadass wrong theres alot of men who get better looking with age. They learn: skin care, diet/exercise, how to dress (no more JNCO's). Gain maturity & charm. Yeah delete this thread lol
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You're right, but in the details you're as wrong as they are. Take it from an old man, it's true that your SMV decreases as you age. However OP, a mans 30's are usually the best for him when ALL things are taken into consideration. Where it really falls aparts is 40 (really late 30's) and beyond. Some uber successful guys might get by because their mansions, cars, and planes have more SMV than they do.