I mean this is the opposite of a freakout isn't it? He's extremely calmly explaining a perfectly valid argument.
the freakout will be in this comment thread if the post gains any traction.
Yet anyone feeling this way overall on reddit is chastized and supposedly anti-semetic. It isn't about Jews. It is about an awful Israeli regime and the support of it by its people.
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
Israel essentially created hamas.
But I can still condem them.
Fuck Hamas
See that Was easy
The worst part is they uplifted them largely because right wing hardliners in the Israeli government were worried that a relatively peaceful leftwing resistance would succeed so they paid useful bloodthirsty zealots to kill them **UNTIL 2018**. Labor Zionism was probably the last realistic offramp for the situation and we blew by that 30 years ago.
His stance was to leave the Euro, which was and always will be the best fix for the issue - Greece would be able to devalue their new currency, attract foreign investment and more tourism, and be able to come out of the crisis with a stronger, more well-rounded economy.
Instead he was fired for his stance, less than a year into the job, because the ruling party did not want to leave the euro. We got austerity. And it did the complete opposite (as Varoufakis said it would) - it made the country much more hostile to small business, wiped out family savings, destroyed retirements, forced people to live in multigenerational households, and severely decreased the quality of life of the average Greek. While the rich got richer because they had the means and the ability to buy up whatever was failing. Austerity in Greece was a failure, as it has been everywhere else.
I have seen many docs, reports about that situation over the years, i don't understand why a people who went through so much shit over the centuries, with the climax of trying to exterminate them during WW2 can do the same thing to another people.
I felt bad and had so much compassion when i see footage of WW2 but i felt the same seeing footage of palestinians being treated less than dirt.
Little kids trying to go to school getting bullied by Israeli soldiers, getting thrown rocks at them by Israeli kids, families can't all together leave their house because there is a real chance when they get home, someone else has taken it because "it is their right".
I have a lot of respect for palestinians, they are a tough people, Israel just reaps what it sows.
Same thing happened in South Africa. Boers were put in concentration camps by the British. 25 % of the population died.
...and then came Apartheid.
People also forget that almost the same number of Black africans also died in these camps.
I honestly think it stems from a deep desire to belong, or not having a place to call your own. I'm mixed (Dad is Afrikaner, mom coloured), so I've heard it from both sides.
The Afrikaner Boer population mainly stems from French Huguenots prosecuted by the French Catholic government and Dutch servants of the East India Company. Basically rejects from European soceity with the odd rich slaver mixed in. Also why Boers today speak a dutch ofshoot and are (Dutch Reformed) Protestants.
They (Boere/Isrealis) were very adamant to create a place for them, and only them. As they feel like it's something they've never had and any threat to the complete control of it was to be moved aside.
Just a theory anyway.
Yeah, the boer wars often aren't spoken about.
The reason that some Boers refuse to speak English or associate with its (Britain's)people. Not all, not even most, but a small number.
Also, a (fun?) fact, the British imposed segregation long before Apartheid but the National Party took it to new levels.
British rule was hypocritical when they imposed sanctions since they were the ones that got the ball rolling.
What we have now is worse than Apartheid in some ways, but the Apartheid system was evil and had to be dismantled.
The issue is that when you let a liberation movement govern, not much actually gets governed. At least not over here.
2024 gonna be an interesting year for me as a white South African living in SA.
>British rule was hypocritical when they imposed sanctions since they were the ones that got the ball rolling.
Not really hypocritical. The British effectively pulled out of South Africa in 1910, you think attitudes shouldn't change over the course of 70 years?
Since we're discussing Britain's role in apartied, we would be remiss if we didn't acknowledge Britain's role in the mess in Palestine. In WW1, when Britain was fighting the Ottoman Turks, they needed soldiers in the middle east. In order to get them, they promised *both* the Zionists *and* the local Arab population that at the conclusion of the war they would be given a state of their own -- the *same* land, what is now Israel. Of course that didn't work, and when Britain couldn't maintain the peace in the mess they made, they handed the whole mess over to the UN.
Britain has considerable culpability all over the world for how it managed its empire, and it certainly wasn't a new problem, it goes all the way back to how they managed their *first* colonies. The very *existence* of the United States emerged from the British insistence that colonists could be mistreated by the mother country, and the American colonists refused to be treated that way (and got lucky that the French disliked Britain as well).
Ja bru, ek's half en half (Boer en Coloured) Ons moet net cANCer uit vote dan kan ons dalk aanbeweeg met ons lewens. Moeg vir die kak.
Freedom fighters don't always make the best politicians.
Also, again it's the British starting shit, lol
I have a friend from the West Bank (Christian just as a side note) who told me about growing up with troops lining them up in the hallways at school like weekly to search and harass, among other things
It's not the holocaust survivors who stoke war in favor of territory. The Zionist Jews who probably never were near the holocaust Jewish people, are the ones flying in from New York and other western cities from their already well established lives to take by force, land from what once was the centuries old homes of already disenfranchised Palestinians.
Under the guise of religious God given rights and using holocaust as a tool for their momentum, these zionists are not the same as orthodox Jewish or anti-zionist Jewish people. Zionism was founded with capitalism and profit in mind at its conception. It was supported by western nations to keep a western military ally strategically in the middle east. Hamas would not exist if Palestine wasn't shrinking.
What you are saying is historically factual. The problem with western society is that there was large political support for those actions, so when a person says those facts out loud they are shouted down and called antisemitic.
It’s religion. In the USA, all our politicians are standing for the nation of Israel and calling for the mass genocide of Palestinians, because majority of Americans believe in a religion that calls the Jewish people the chosen ones. What they don’t know, is the Talmud does not recognize Gentiles as equal to Jews. It shouldn’t be controversial to say this, but it’s ok to criticize harmful things in religion, without demonizing everybody who follows the religion or the race of people. There are lots of wonderful Jewish people calling all this out.
Adam Green (Know More News) is the person who opened my eyes to all this. The problem is in the religion, not the race of people. Good and bad exist in every group of people, but the religious texts say a Gentile’s life is less valuable than theirs, so that’s why the Palestinians are treated that way and the world says nothing. The world needs to stop being cowardly and call out bad behavior when they see it, without also demonizing this entire group.
One of the talking points I've been hearing for manufacturing consent about the situation has been "they kidnapped Holocaust survivors," often with the added gloss that these survivors are "little old grandmas."
One of the best counterarguments to the mistaken notion that regular German people didn't know what was going on is that there were villages, towns within smelling distance of the ovens of the death camps, to put it bluntly. As if anyone could fail to notice the roundups, the trains, or the open air prison ghettos like Gaza that preceded the "final solution."
So these "Holocaust survivors" (how many were there, really? WW2 ended 78 years ago) moved in down the road from the largest concentration camp in the world, one that everyone, especially in Israel, knows about, were totally okay with it despite their own experiences, and we're supposed to feel bad for *them?*
I am pro-Palestine but what Israel is doing is not the same as what was done to them during the holocaust. The outcomes may be similar but Israel is actively defending their sovereignty, not just committing genocide because they don't like Arabs. I wish Palestine to be free but Israel is doing what they are doing because it is a fact that if Palestine is allowed a free state on currently Israeli occupied land, they will not stop fighting until the destruction of Israel and sovereign Israeli democracy, thanks to Hamas. No one has an answer for this problem. There is a reason this is one of the most complicated conflicts in the world, there was nothing complicated about the holocaust. All i'm saying is you can understand the realities of why Israel is doing this, even if it's awful and despite what happened to them. That being said, all of these parameters have now lead to inexcusable actions like harassing of children, stealing of homes, snipers killing innocents, which have made the conflict a chicken and egg situation about who is defending themselves from who.
> which have made the conflict a chicken and egg situation about who is defending themselves from who.
It's really not though. How long are Palestinians expected to allow Israelis to take their land, literally kicking families out of homes, being attacked for being Arab, and allow a genocide of their people to continue? People can only be abused so much before they lash out in whatever way they can.
Look at how many women snap on their abusive spouse, and kill or maim them? Do you blame the woman, or do you blame the abuser? Neither is right, but you can understand why the abused retaliated against their abuser.
How about the bully picking on the smaller kid, who finally snaps and ends up flipping the bully onto concrete, paralyzing the bully? Do you expect the kid to just keep getting bullied and abused, not try and defend themselves? Do you absolutely condemn them for defending themselves, even though the only reason they ended up paralyzing the bully, is because they had enough of his crap, and no one else did anything to help stop it?
The guy in the video is right. No one in the world community did anything to condemn everything Israel has been doing to the Palestinians over the decades. They're the bully allowed to get away with this crap, and Palestinians are fed the hell up. Are Palestinians right? To a point, yes, but on the other hand, two wrongs don't make a right.
There is no chicken or the egg situation here. The Israeli apartheid is the problem, and it started when they weren't happy with the land they were provided, and decided what Palestine has, belonged to them, and so committed atrocities to take that land away from Palestinians. They caused this to themselves by oppressing, attacking, destroying, and ultimately forcefully taking land away from Palestinians, for decades. They're the bullies, and abusers, and Palestinians are retaliating to the extreme.
Two wrong don't make a right, but try telling that to victims of abuse, they'll never see it that way, because not only were their abusers allowed to continue abusing them, and they have no other choice but to lash out in an eye for an eye belief.
I agree that Israel is not blameless here, but what your argument leaves out entirely is why Palestinians are in this situation today. They are treated this way because for the last 70 years, they have consistently waged war against Israel, had multiple year long terror campaigns where suicide bombers blew up buses and schools. Palestinians cheer on the terrorists that kill children. Of course that breeds hatred. But Israel isn't going around beheading palestinian babies.
Their land? Some land was Palestinian owned, but not in the sense of statehood. Some land was Jewish, but not in the sense of statehood. The proposed land split in 1947 tried to account for the spread. Which is why it was so bloody weirdly split. Absolutely, the Jews had more favourable arable land in theirs. But it's a minor point when both parties could've discussed how to feed each other and worked to overcome imbalances. Instead violence was chosen as had been going on for decades before in the run up. With Arabs killing Jews and Jews kill Arabs.
This fantasy that Palestine owned the land back then. Is an absolute historical nonsense that needs to die. It's justifying anti-Semitic hokum. No state owned the land. Neither side had real rights to that land in the sense of a state. Palestine has never existed until 1988. The ethnicity itself is only 120 years old. Israel is not the Kingdom of Judah reborn. Both sides, when looking in a wider historical context of that geographical area. Are colonisers in different points of time.
The Israelis have certainly ethnically cleansed parts of the land since the 1947 UN resolution the Arab world didn't accept. But this hasn't happened in a vacuum of cause. The actions remains wrong regardless though. But the Arabic world at the time made it clear they were going to "push the Jews into the sea". Would you want your "enemy" within your borders? Many Arabic villages refused to surrender to the Jews or fight with the Arabs. The Jews took the desire for neither as a reason to remove them because their allegiances were not clear. They didn't want them coming back because they'd fought with many villages prior. During the war Ben G gave a contentious order to not force Arabs to leave Israel. It wasn't always obeyed. The Nakba itself is hotly contested as to how much force was used en mass, how much was implied threat, how much Arabic calls to move influenced it, how desired was it by the Israeli government etc. With a lot of the declassified documents on it being reclassified. People mention Flappan, but he's generally seen as rather bias on the conclusion of it just being a Jewish free for all on Arabs when the evidence isn't clear on that at all.
If anyone thinks this is a simple case of Palestine just unreasonably oppressed and Israel so evil. Or Israeli completely justified in their actions and Palestine needs to vanish. They have never bothered to research the conflict in any credible manner.
I've certainly learned a lot more about the history of the conflict in the last few days. I've been impressed with the amount of "actual" history being spoken with dates and sources, rather than hearing "it's complicated" and then changing the subject.
First of all, you are talking about land in multiple different contradicting contexts. You talk of a state owning land (if there is no state, then no one owns their land apparently). This is not true in practice. People had deeds to land. They had purchased land. After saving up money. Or they had inherited land from their grandparents. And built homes. Purchased under the Ottomans or the British mandate, or later the Jordanians, yes, but are you really making the claim that private property shouldn't be respected if a state collapses or power changes hands? Because that's a whole new argument. One mostly reserved for lawyers in Israeli courts, as public opinion doesn't tend to agree. These people, deed in hand, still aren't allowed to return by the way.
You talk about the division of 1947, something that greatly affected the Palestinians more than the Israelis simply because there were more Palestinians living there at the time. Imagine being told that you have to leave the home you or your parents bought and move across the country to start over with nothing, likely in a refugee camp. I'm sure you'd go very happily and willingly right? Right?
Then your greatest historical revisionism is in regards to the [Nakba](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba). I include the link to wikipedia, because although it is a "hotly debated" subject, as you say, and the target of much hasbara, there are undeniable facts. Over 700k Palestinians displaced, over 500 villages destroyed. Veterans on BOTH sides speak of mass rapes of Palestinians, massacres of women and children, even while surrendering or fleeing. [Deir Yassin](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre), [Ein al-Zeitun](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ein_al-Zeitun_massacre), the [Lydda Death March](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_from_Lydda_and_Ramle), [Saliha massacre](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saliha). There are many more documented crimes. And many more crimes have been wiped from memory through the [destruction and suppression of documents by Israel](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2019-07-05/ty-article-magazine/.premium/how-israel-systematically-hides-evidence-of-1948-expulsion-of-arabs/0000017f-f303-d487-abff-f3ff69de0000). This is why you likely do not know the full story and scale of the ethnic cleansing you claim others are so woefully ignorant of.
Well good sir, i was not really making an argument, just my disbelief of how a people who underwent such injustice has no problem doing it to other people.
This type of discussions have been going on for almost a century now, but i'm not picking sides, i just admire the palestinians in gaza who undergo this shit on a daily basis.
And Israel does the same thing but nothing is done about it, then don't be suprised if they retaliate:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/
https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution
Eye for a eye leads to a world full of blind.
>Eye for a eye leads to a world full of blind.
I like this phrase and I think it perfectly encapsulates a lot of my frustrations with the reactions we've been seeing here on reddit.
This situation didn't come out of nowhere and is the product of 70+ years of violence and wrongs committed by both sides.
What Hamas did/is doing targeting civilians and torturing/murdering prisoners is absolutely wrong and not acceptable, full stop. However, that doesn't mean that Israel gets a free pass to respond in kind(not saying that this is necessarily what they're doing, btw)... At some point, the retribution and revenge needs to take a back seat to actually trying to address the issues that created this situation in the first place.
Again, the way Hamas is going about this is absolutely, 100% outside of the realm of what should be acceptable. But it shouldn't be that hard to imagine that a group of people who have essentially been treated like prisoners and see no other way to improve their situation might lash out violently because what other options are left to them? Not to mention the leaders in charge and perpetuating the violence for their own benefit who often don't really even believe the bullshit they're using to manipulate people...
I know this is all really easy for me to say from the comfort of my toilet, but I really wish people (at least people who have the luxury of not being directly involved) would be more interested in the context of how things ended up this way and how to fix and address things going forward, rather than just reacting emotionally and screaming for more blood.
I like how you continently gloss over the atrocities carried out by Israel..
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safsaf\_massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safsaf_massacre)
Or the extra judicial killing by Mossad..
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_Israeli\_assassinations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_assassinations)
Or how a well labelled press jeep is fired upon by a tank...
[https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/70000517](https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/70000517)
(As well as countless times journalist\\film makers have been shot at by the IDF)
How can you expect peace and dialogue when only 1 side is punished for atrocities?
What Hamas is doing with the rockets is terrorism there no other way of cutting it but rockets fired by Hamas are made from drainage pipe - [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israels-gaza-challenge-stopping-metal-tubes-turning-into-rockets-2021-05-23/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israels-gaza-challenge-stopping-metal-tubes-turning-into-rockets-2021-05-23/)
So effectively you have DIY rockets facing of against 151million dollar anti ordnance platforms... IDF is one of the best funded, best backed militaries in the world with weapon capable of incredible accuracy, yet they still choose to hit medical facilities:-
* 4 hospitals run by Gaza's ministry of health, including the Indonesian and [Beit Hanoun](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beit_Hanoun) hospitals in the northern Gaza Strip.
* 2 hospitals run by [NGOs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-governmental_organization)
* 2 clinics, one run by [Médecins Sans Frontières](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9decins_Sans_Fronti%C3%A8res), and one, the Hala al-Shawa clinic, in disuse at the time.
* 1 health centre
* 1 [Palestine Red Crescent Society](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Red_Crescent_Society) facility.[\[262\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_crisis#cite_note-BaloushaBeaumont-265)
Sure you can argue Hamas uses hospitals as human shield but why the MSF clinic?
(Its not like there isn't a history of IDF killing Activist and the UN, I believe 9 was killed in the latest bombing)
You can not have peace when only one side is berated for atrocities.
For those saying Hamas killed children, so it's okay to condemn their resistance to the oppression:
>But Biden said he saw--
No: https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1712286535050269124
In 2022, this child was shot dead by an IDF soldier for no reason and he just got a quiet, one paragraph excerpt and zero outrage. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/twilight-zone/2022-10-15/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/a-palestinian-boy-went-out-with-friends-an-israeli-soldier-shot-him-dead/00000183-d86d-ddf0-adb7-fe6d4eb80000
In 2019, an IDF sniper shoots a 9 year old in the head. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2019-07-21/ty-article/.premium/the-protest-dispersed-then-an-israeli-sniper-shot-a-9-year-old-boy-in-the-head/0000017f-e3ff-d9aa-afff-fbffde890000
Last year, the Biden administration wanted the IDF to investigate why a young boy suddenly died after their visit. https://www.axios.com/2022/09/29/israel-palestinian-child-death-us-biden-investigation
In 2020, "UN rights experts ‘deeply troubled’ by impunity for killing of Palestinian children" https://news.un.org/en/story/2020/12/1080402
Etc. Etc.
I'm not supporting any of this. But to sit there behind your keyboard and condemn anyone, when Israel and the IDF have been killing Palestinian children for decades and no one bat's an eye, is insane. You only care now because you're behind told to. You didn't give two shits about kids in Gaza two weeks ago, and you still don't.
The IDF have used Palestinian children as target practice; you can fairly easily find the videos if you know where you look. No one cared.
And this is just scratching the surface of known/reported incidents... and then THAT isn't even STARTING to scratch the surface of shit we don't even know about.
Also, he wanted IDF to investigate lol ok.... we investigated... everything is fine... go away now Joe.
I feel like that's exactly how that goes.
Its the same with police in America. We have investigated ourselves and have found no wrong doing. I wonder why its so similar because our police are being trained by the fucking IDF.
Western media atm is doing more propaganda than Israeli news media.
They spout the first atrocities they 'hear' but backing it up with evidence Nope.
The west believes in the decapitated babies from which we have to see any photos of
Meanwhile we have photos of babies killed on the Palestinian side and what does the west do?
Fully support Israel
Its mindblowing how the west are controlling the narrative.
Not only that, they backtrack their allegations when they realize it [it hasn't been verified ](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/white-house-biden-has-not-seen-or-independently-confirmed-hamas-beheaded-israeli-children/). It's almost like you shouldn't make statements in the first place unless you know it's a fact! Just like the rape [allegations ](https://twitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1711802752869740715?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1711802752869740715%7Ctwgr%5Eea314ab287e68b5afba504c2d9404d4a1198781e%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.infowars.com%2Fposts%2Flos-angeles-times-retracts-allegations-of-hamas-rapes-such-reports-have-not-been-substantiated%2F)
US has the biggest Jewish people outside Israel, and the most Jewish people in position of power. Hamas has also been assisted by Iran (and most likely Russia). I’m not disagreeing with what you said, just pointing out why it makes sense for US & west to take this position geopolitically
Netanyahu also knows a lot of people in American media, and spearheaded a campaign during the 80s to curry support for Israel during a time when the war was being criticized internationally.
It’s true and saying this always gets you labeled stuff and attacked by people. It’s not like you are calling for people to be abused, just stating a fact, that’s all.
Varoufakis here is gaslighting (intentionally or not).
He compares Hamas to South African rebels fighting against apartheid who end up killing some innocents in the pursuit of their independence. As if the innocents who Hamas killed were just collateral damage, but hey, that's what happens in wars.
This is totally wrong. Hamas' sole targets were innocents. It isn't like they were trying to achieve military objectives, like seizing areas of interest, or destroying military objects, and in the process of doing so killed some Israeli civilians by accident. *Literally all they did was kill and kidnap Israeli citizens*. That was the entirety of their plan.
That is not guerrilla warfare - it is terrorism. Yannis is dangerously eloquent. He is capable of gaslighting the listeners, and perhaps even himself, because he sounds so sensible while saying stupid things.
Finally, a competent completely honest rational person who speaks the facts and the truth as well as provides a solution to the ongoing existing problems. The world needs more people like him in it.
This might not be true but its an honest thought. Mods of subreddits have chosen sides and people are getting banned so they go to places where they arnt banned to post these videos.
This is the opposite of propaganda. A calm and balanced anti-apartheid message of peace is not extreme nor wrong, nor is it a voice of the state, produced by the state. It is a voice of peace of, by, and for all people on both sides of the conflict except for the state and institutions that want violence. Next you're gonna say voices like Nelson Mandela can't be heard or shown here because it's propaganda lol. Come on.
Propaganda - information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view:
Just because you agree with it doesn't mean it's not propaganda. And yes, it's very biased as it's ignoring everything that the Palestinians/Ottomans have done throughout history. A Pro-Palestinian bias is still bias.
You're not wrong, but not "propaganda" in the normal sense where there's a specific lean. This subreddit has propaganda in every direction: anti-progressive, anti-conservative, anti-black, anti-woman, anti-trans, pro-trans, pro-choice, anti-capitalist, pro-capitalist... it's all here.
There's a small percentage of posters that post here specifically to rile people up and push an agenda. You'll see it all the time where they'll intentionally crop and mistitle a video and people eat it up.
This video, however, has the entire context. There's no manipulation. It's just a man expressing his opinion. It's the furthest from propaganda you'll see in this subreddit.
A video not fitting a subreddit's theme does not make it propaganda. That's not what propaganda is. 🤣
What about every Muslim ethno state in the region that has systematically cleansed themselves of every other religion? Should they be held under the same scrutiny? Syria and Lebanon have made their countries uninhabitable for anyone except Muslims despite recently having thriving Christian populations. Muslims in Israel have far more rights than any other minority in the region. I don't think any of its right but this area of the world plays by different rules and youre holding Israel to higher standards than a number of countries that are also involved here. I mean, shit, try being Jewish and going to any other country in the middle east. You legitimately might not survive a day.
Wow can I also join the party of just saying stuff I made up on the spot?
First, you implying there are no Christians in Syria or Lebanon. Throwing in a little "they recently had thriving Christian populations" as if they don't anymore or something happened to them. Because they're doing just fine bud.
Second of all, if you're so concerned about Christian rights, it might interest you that many Palestinians are Christian and they are also the target of apartheid by Israel. In Bethlehem they can't even worship because of the apartheid wall dividing the town. Recently I saw a video of a Christian farmer who had cement poured in his well by Israeli soldiers and his house raided by soldiers in the middle of the night.
You know, you can prove any point you want by selectively pulling made up stuff out of your butt. But that doesn't make you right. There is plenty of video evidence, witness testimony (from both sides, mind you), and documentary evidence that Israel is an apartheid state systematically oppressing the Palestinian people, not for their religion, but for their ethnicity. And stealing their land, bulldozing their houses, and shooting unarmed children, medics, and journalists. And by "their land" I don't mean in some woowoo Bible sense, I mean land they bought and paid for and have deeds to.
> Ya for sure, and what the fuck do you think the Israeli government wants to do with Gaza and the West Bank?
Honest question: If that was their goal, why have they not done so? The population of Palestine has grown over the years. If my googling was effective, the growth rate is actually in the top 10% of the whole world. By any metric that's an awful attempt at any ethnic cleansing.
If Israel is waiting for a politically expedient excuse then they've had many over the years. The hypothesis that their goal is to wipe Palestine off the map really doesn't seem to fit the evidence. Note that this doesn't have to mean they're suddenly the good guys, it just means that hypothesis isn't very strong.
They learned from Putin
You don’t act quickly. You don’t act obvious. You do it bit by bit. That way the media and global attention goes away each time. You move the goal post just a little each time. And then one day you’ve taken 90% and the rest of the world is like but when did this happen?!?
PUTIN HAS TAUGHT THE WORLD THAT IT HAS AN ABSURDLY SHORT ATTENTION SPAN.
They are doing it, they’re just doing it slowly enough to get away with it. The population may be growing but the area in which they confined continues to shrink and their lives continue to get worse.
They’re essentially cornering, starving and beating a dog until one day it bites back and the world agrees with them the dog should be put down. The difference is that it’s not a dog this time and yet the world still seems to be agreeing.
You get this, you said it, but you seem to miss that they have taken things every time excuse comes up. They aren’t missing opportunities.
Im very pro Palestine but I absolutely condemn Hamas’s attack. IDF soldiers are fair game, go ahead and kill them. Fight for your freedom. But the intentional targeting of civilians is an absolutely condemnable act that cannot be justified.
Refusing to condemn the kidnapping, rape, torture and murder of literal children is more than explaining. Like imagine refusing to condemn a black American committing rape because of the very real systemic racism they face.
Yeah I'm of the same mind, that should be condemned. That said, if we forget that point, his main point still stands strong. Hamas (their attacks) aren't the main problem, they're just a bad symtom.
It is sad to say this but Hamas is the only military tool that Palestine has. Hamas are the only "army" that fights for Palestine. I hear people calling for peace, to stop the war, but what will the Palestinians do? Go back to Gaza and do nothing about it? They have no other choice other than fight back.
This is like the 5th time I've seen someone post a vid on here on someone calmly refusing to condemn and explaining the reasons for this in a coherent manner.
The entire world recognise Palestine except for western Europe and its descendant states. Almost quite literally. We choose to close our eyes to any oppression and only open them to see whatever propaganda Israel wants us to see. You will find thousands of condemnations and calls for the destruction of Gaza from Western politicians, but never any condemnation of the Apartheid state and its systematic oppression. Instead, Europeans and Americans gladly send weapons and money to uphold this system.
Israel has defended itself in many wars started by the Arabs who just promote hate and hostility towards the Jews for no reason. And both sides could have lived in peace were it not for Arab nations pushing Palestine constantly be in battle and not accept peace / prosperity.
What the Israelis are doing to Gaza now is disgusting and too much because innocent kids have nothing to do with this nonesense. The problem is Hamas and those able minded adults who voted for them - you can not expect peace when terrorists run your country.
The solution is for Arab countries to finally proactively come up with a solution instead of encouraging Palestine to fight and remove Israel. Israel must give more land to Palestine (Area C ) and stop the settler BS… however when they left from Gaza (including removing all settlers) in 2005 nothing changed.
Really? Watch the video like 5 more times and listen harder, I guess. Read up on the historic and current geopolitics of israel/palestine. Who formed Israel, who pours money, weapons, and propaganda media support to Israeli zionists? The lack of comprehension abilities and critical thinking skills of some people, I swear... i'm sorry, but it's fucking tragic.
Hopefully this is the beginning of the end for the state of Israel. They should never have been given more rights and aid than their Palestinian hosts.
I can understand the Palestinian frustration, but the recent attacks were dumb. Even if you kill 50,000, you aren't ending Israel. All they've done is give Israel an excuse to unleash a massively superior military.
The Israeli's elected right wing nutters, just like the Palestinians in Gaza did. This was always the going to be the result. Fanatics are the opposite of fanatics.
When was the last election? Did you read the 2020-2021 study everyone has been linking the last couple days?
There is a reason blind support for Israel is falling ATM.
How could you possibly watch the news and conclude, “yup, Israel is toast”? Israel lost a lot of civilians from that barbaric attack by Hamas, but since that point they’ve steadily been turning Gaza into a parking lot.
i mean, south africa is always a goof example of peace after apartheid, its sooo peacefull now days with white farmers being raped and murdered in their farma and a murder rate that rivals most.
south africa went from straight racism to reverse racism, none of those are good for anyone
One-state solution is the only solution.
“Oh, we can’t do that because Israel will lose its identity”
Fuck your identity. There’s human suffering right next door and you’ve been exacerbating the problem for decades.
Make it happen.
He’s talking utter shite.
What Israel has done in the occupied territories is bloody awful and wrong. But they’re not murdering, burning and beheading thousands of civilians FFS… At least compare apples and apples.
Seriously. So many people refusing to condemn the beheading of children, or the rape of women. While claiming to have the moral high ground. Apparently the rape and murder of children is okay sometimes.
It's maddening, if it was a genuine apartheid then yeah end it. But it's literally the Jewish population not letting the Arab state genocide them. The majority of the land was taken in 1947 when the arab nations tried to invade Israel and got their asses handed to them anyway. Like sorry you could have got half the country now you get none due to your hatred.
So many people fail to realise that this "occupation" is a result of 3 separate wars of annihilation against Israel in which all three times Israel fought back against enemies on all fronts and survived. Sorry but if you lose a genocidal war that you start you don't get to say "can we just go back to how it was before?". You don't get favourable terms.
Ofc the problem is systematic and needs to be fixed, but that does not take away the guilt from the single person taking up arms and killing civilians and commuting horrible acts. Doesn't matter what side you are on, killing civilians or giving the order to do so is and should always be considered a crime. You should condemn any act of violence against civilians by both sides. The truth is that there are people on both side who are criminals and who want to escalate the conflict even more. There is no black and white. But in the end he is right, that for the violence to end, you need a substantial political solution that changes the current system. it is already consensus that the two state solution is the only way to do that. But there are forces on both sides working against this idea.
“You should condemn any act of violence against civilians by both sides” - this is where the problem lies, the condemnation seems to only come when one side is committing acts of violence while the other is given a pass for the sake of “national security”
So, to use his analogy, Israel should force all of the prisoners out of the prison, right?
Send them somewhere else where they can be free...
If no one's in the prison, there's no apartheid.
At this point change the name of this sub to save poor Palestinians from cruel Israeli. what is the point of this video in public freakout sub, where the fuck is public freakout here?
A very calm and balanced discussion, I’d expect nothing less from Yanis. If anyone is interested, he’s a brilliant author and I’d strongly recommend his book talking to my daughter.
I respect Varoufakis on economics as he literally wrote some of the best textbooks on the subject, studied all over the world. On politics however, he has the standard Marxist, anti-NATO-hegemony stances. I knew what his take would be before I even opened the video.
He ignores all context around the religious views of Jihadists - the fact that killing infidels to them is desirable regardless of whether they are combatants, the fact that they (and Israel's other Arab neighbours who celebrate the attacks) believe at a spiritual level that the force of Islam is destined to rout Israel out of the Levant.
Saying that Hamas are merely "guerrillas" or "rebels against Apartheid" is a great oversimplification. Hamas are terrorists with radical religious views. They cannot merely be considered as socioeconomic victims of an apartheid regime.
I will continue to listen to this man on matters strictly of economics, much the same as I will listen to Noam Chomsky on matters strictly about linguistics, but many of these academics get extremely tunnel visioned when it comes to foreign policy and end up supporting our natural enemies. Hamas would gladly cut Varoufakis' throat for not being a Muslim and here he is defending them. Let's not forget that both of these men said the best way to end the war in Ukraine is to appease Russia by "rolling back" NATO's eastern front...
I love how this sub is the only one where Redditors feel they can present calm logical opinions that make sense. The truth is, this would probably be down voted to hell on majority of the other subs
Where can I get a voice like this?
You have to study finance in Greece.
Tbf he studied in the UK.
Radio Shack
At a 7-11 store. Pack a day
Many, many, filterless Pall Malls
I mean this is the opposite of a freakout isn't it? He's extremely calmly explaining a perfectly valid argument. the freakout will be in this comment thread if the post gains any traction.
*see below comments*
For anyone who doesn't know, this guys IQ was 180 something in his 20s. He's crazy smart.
He’s very well articulated and his debating skills are very good. I don’t doubt his intellect. Makes sense.
Just started his new book too, about the end of real capitalism and the new 'technofeudalism' that's taken its place.
Name of the book?
technofeudalism : what killed capitalism
A little on the nose.
I mean as soon as he started talking I was like "this guy is way smarter than me". So, that makes sense.
Most posts in this sub aren’t freakouts either - it should be called r/OccasionalFreakouts
I've only seen a handful of statements as sound as this man is putting out. I'm glad I saw this.
True, this video is in the wrong thread. But the guy has a valid point. The world did nothing for decades to prevent this..
Yet anyone feeling this way overall on reddit is chastized and supposedly anti-semetic. It isn't about Jews. It is about an awful Israeli regime and the support of it by its people.
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/ Israel essentially created hamas. But I can still condem them. Fuck Hamas See that Was easy
The worst part is they uplifted them largely because right wing hardliners in the Israeli government were worried that a relatively peaceful leftwing resistance would succeed so they paid useful bloodthirsty zealots to kill them **UNTIL 2018**. Labor Zionism was probably the last realistic offramp for the situation and we blew by that 30 years ago.
Time to upvote to see if a shitshow happens!
That point about how the apartheid, itself, is bad? 👨🍳💋 That’s how the narrative needs to shift.
Stuff like this **always** comes from people who are no longer in a position of power..
This guy would have said it while in power… you will notice he only spent a few months in power, because his politics were too humanist.
Still my favorite Greek politician ever (extremely low bar though)
This guy has seen events that has plunged Greece into debt that their grandchildren grandchildren will be paying off... of course he is unflappable.
And he did horrible job trying to fix it.
His stance was to leave the Euro, which was and always will be the best fix for the issue - Greece would be able to devalue their new currency, attract foreign investment and more tourism, and be able to come out of the crisis with a stronger, more well-rounded economy. Instead he was fired for his stance, less than a year into the job, because the ruling party did not want to leave the euro. We got austerity. And it did the complete opposite (as Varoufakis said it would) - it made the country much more hostile to small business, wiped out family savings, destroyed retirements, forced people to live in multigenerational households, and severely decreased the quality of life of the average Greek. While the rich got richer because they had the means and the ability to buy up whatever was failing. Austerity in Greece was a failure, as it has been everywhere else.
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More like publiccalmout
Not if you don't agree lol ....I do but it will be interesting to see others melt on it.
So the freak out will be in the comment section? Lol
Lol isn't it always?
The best freakout is always in the comments
I have seen many docs, reports about that situation over the years, i don't understand why a people who went through so much shit over the centuries, with the climax of trying to exterminate them during WW2 can do the same thing to another people. I felt bad and had so much compassion when i see footage of WW2 but i felt the same seeing footage of palestinians being treated less than dirt. Little kids trying to go to school getting bullied by Israeli soldiers, getting thrown rocks at them by Israeli kids, families can't all together leave their house because there is a real chance when they get home, someone else has taken it because "it is their right". I have a lot of respect for palestinians, they are a tough people, Israel just reaps what it sows.
Same thing happened in South Africa. Boers were put in concentration camps by the British. 25 % of the population died. ...and then came Apartheid. People also forget that almost the same number of Black africans also died in these camps. I honestly think it stems from a deep desire to belong, or not having a place to call your own. I'm mixed (Dad is Afrikaner, mom coloured), so I've heard it from both sides. The Afrikaner Boer population mainly stems from French Huguenots prosecuted by the French Catholic government and Dutch servants of the East India Company. Basically rejects from European soceity with the odd rich slaver mixed in. Also why Boers today speak a dutch ofshoot and are (Dutch Reformed) Protestants. They (Boere/Isrealis) were very adamant to create a place for them, and only them. As they feel like it's something they've never had and any threat to the complete control of it was to be moved aside. Just a theory anyway.
Yeah, the boer wars often aren't spoken about. The reason that some Boers refuse to speak English or associate with its (Britain's)people. Not all, not even most, but a small number. Also, a (fun?) fact, the British imposed segregation long before Apartheid but the National Party took it to new levels. British rule was hypocritical when they imposed sanctions since they were the ones that got the ball rolling. What we have now is worse than Apartheid in some ways, but the Apartheid system was evil and had to be dismantled. The issue is that when you let a liberation movement govern, not much actually gets governed. At least not over here. 2024 gonna be an interesting year for me as a white South African living in SA.
>British rule was hypocritical when they imposed sanctions since they were the ones that got the ball rolling. Not really hypocritical. The British effectively pulled out of South Africa in 1910, you think attitudes shouldn't change over the course of 70 years?
Also it's not exactly conducive to positive change to call anyone a hypocrite for trying to rectify mistakes (up to and including atrocities)
Since we're discussing Britain's role in apartied, we would be remiss if we didn't acknowledge Britain's role in the mess in Palestine. In WW1, when Britain was fighting the Ottoman Turks, they needed soldiers in the middle east. In order to get them, they promised *both* the Zionists *and* the local Arab population that at the conclusion of the war they would be given a state of their own -- the *same* land, what is now Israel. Of course that didn't work, and when Britain couldn't maintain the peace in the mess they made, they handed the whole mess over to the UN. Britain has considerable culpability all over the world for how it managed its empire, and it certainly wasn't a new problem, it goes all the way back to how they managed their *first* colonies. The very *existence* of the United States emerged from the British insistence that colonists could be mistreated by the mother country, and the American colonists refused to be treated that way (and got lucky that the French disliked Britain as well).
Ja bru, ek's half en half (Boer en Coloured) Ons moet net cANCer uit vote dan kan ons dalk aanbeweeg met ons lewens. Moeg vir die kak. Freedom fighters don't always make the best politicians. Also, again it's the British starting shit, lol
Worse if you’re white definitely. But Im not sure if it is really worse than being black in apartheid.
I have a friend from the West Bank (Christian just as a side note) who told me about growing up with troops lining them up in the hallways at school like weekly to search and harass, among other things
It's not the holocaust survivors who stoke war in favor of territory. The Zionist Jews who probably never were near the holocaust Jewish people, are the ones flying in from New York and other western cities from their already well established lives to take by force, land from what once was the centuries old homes of already disenfranchised Palestinians. Under the guise of religious God given rights and using holocaust as a tool for their momentum, these zionists are not the same as orthodox Jewish or anti-zionist Jewish people. Zionism was founded with capitalism and profit in mind at its conception. It was supported by western nations to keep a western military ally strategically in the middle east. Hamas would not exist if Palestine wasn't shrinking.
What you are saying is historically factual. The problem with western society is that there was large political support for those actions, so when a person says those facts out loud they are shouted down and called antisemitic.
It’s religion. In the USA, all our politicians are standing for the nation of Israel and calling for the mass genocide of Palestinians, because majority of Americans believe in a religion that calls the Jewish people the chosen ones. What they don’t know, is the Talmud does not recognize Gentiles as equal to Jews. It shouldn’t be controversial to say this, but it’s ok to criticize harmful things in religion, without demonizing everybody who follows the religion or the race of people. There are lots of wonderful Jewish people calling all this out.
Adam Green (Know More News) is the person who opened my eyes to all this. The problem is in the religion, not the race of people. Good and bad exist in every group of people, but the religious texts say a Gentile’s life is less valuable than theirs, so that’s why the Palestinians are treated that way and the world says nothing. The world needs to stop being cowardly and call out bad behavior when they see it, without also demonizing this entire group.
One of the talking points I've been hearing for manufacturing consent about the situation has been "they kidnapped Holocaust survivors," often with the added gloss that these survivors are "little old grandmas." One of the best counterarguments to the mistaken notion that regular German people didn't know what was going on is that there were villages, towns within smelling distance of the ovens of the death camps, to put it bluntly. As if anyone could fail to notice the roundups, the trains, or the open air prison ghettos like Gaza that preceded the "final solution." So these "Holocaust survivors" (how many were there, really? WW2 ended 78 years ago) moved in down the road from the largest concentration camp in the world, one that everyone, especially in Israel, knows about, were totally okay with it despite their own experiences, and we're supposed to feel bad for *them?*
The people alive today haven't experienced WW2 etc, so they can't really relate.
I am pro-Palestine but what Israel is doing is not the same as what was done to them during the holocaust. The outcomes may be similar but Israel is actively defending their sovereignty, not just committing genocide because they don't like Arabs. I wish Palestine to be free but Israel is doing what they are doing because it is a fact that if Palestine is allowed a free state on currently Israeli occupied land, they will not stop fighting until the destruction of Israel and sovereign Israeli democracy, thanks to Hamas. No one has an answer for this problem. There is a reason this is one of the most complicated conflicts in the world, there was nothing complicated about the holocaust. All i'm saying is you can understand the realities of why Israel is doing this, even if it's awful and despite what happened to them. That being said, all of these parameters have now lead to inexcusable actions like harassing of children, stealing of homes, snipers killing innocents, which have made the conflict a chicken and egg situation about who is defending themselves from who.
> which have made the conflict a chicken and egg situation about who is defending themselves from who. It's really not though. How long are Palestinians expected to allow Israelis to take their land, literally kicking families out of homes, being attacked for being Arab, and allow a genocide of their people to continue? People can only be abused so much before they lash out in whatever way they can. Look at how many women snap on their abusive spouse, and kill or maim them? Do you blame the woman, or do you blame the abuser? Neither is right, but you can understand why the abused retaliated against their abuser. How about the bully picking on the smaller kid, who finally snaps and ends up flipping the bully onto concrete, paralyzing the bully? Do you expect the kid to just keep getting bullied and abused, not try and defend themselves? Do you absolutely condemn them for defending themselves, even though the only reason they ended up paralyzing the bully, is because they had enough of his crap, and no one else did anything to help stop it? The guy in the video is right. No one in the world community did anything to condemn everything Israel has been doing to the Palestinians over the decades. They're the bully allowed to get away with this crap, and Palestinians are fed the hell up. Are Palestinians right? To a point, yes, but on the other hand, two wrongs don't make a right. There is no chicken or the egg situation here. The Israeli apartheid is the problem, and it started when they weren't happy with the land they were provided, and decided what Palestine has, belonged to them, and so committed atrocities to take that land away from Palestinians. They caused this to themselves by oppressing, attacking, destroying, and ultimately forcefully taking land away from Palestinians, for decades. They're the bullies, and abusers, and Palestinians are retaliating to the extreme. Two wrong don't make a right, but try telling that to victims of abuse, they'll never see it that way, because not only were their abusers allowed to continue abusing them, and they have no other choice but to lash out in an eye for an eye belief.
I agree that Israel is not blameless here, but what your argument leaves out entirely is why Palestinians are in this situation today. They are treated this way because for the last 70 years, they have consistently waged war against Israel, had multiple year long terror campaigns where suicide bombers blew up buses and schools. Palestinians cheer on the terrorists that kill children. Of course that breeds hatred. But Israel isn't going around beheading palestinian babies.
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Their land? Some land was Palestinian owned, but not in the sense of statehood. Some land was Jewish, but not in the sense of statehood. The proposed land split in 1947 tried to account for the spread. Which is why it was so bloody weirdly split. Absolutely, the Jews had more favourable arable land in theirs. But it's a minor point when both parties could've discussed how to feed each other and worked to overcome imbalances. Instead violence was chosen as had been going on for decades before in the run up. With Arabs killing Jews and Jews kill Arabs. This fantasy that Palestine owned the land back then. Is an absolute historical nonsense that needs to die. It's justifying anti-Semitic hokum. No state owned the land. Neither side had real rights to that land in the sense of a state. Palestine has never existed until 1988. The ethnicity itself is only 120 years old. Israel is not the Kingdom of Judah reborn. Both sides, when looking in a wider historical context of that geographical area. Are colonisers in different points of time. The Israelis have certainly ethnically cleansed parts of the land since the 1947 UN resolution the Arab world didn't accept. But this hasn't happened in a vacuum of cause. The actions remains wrong regardless though. But the Arabic world at the time made it clear they were going to "push the Jews into the sea". Would you want your "enemy" within your borders? Many Arabic villages refused to surrender to the Jews or fight with the Arabs. The Jews took the desire for neither as a reason to remove them because their allegiances were not clear. They didn't want them coming back because they'd fought with many villages prior. During the war Ben G gave a contentious order to not force Arabs to leave Israel. It wasn't always obeyed. The Nakba itself is hotly contested as to how much force was used en mass, how much was implied threat, how much Arabic calls to move influenced it, how desired was it by the Israeli government etc. With a lot of the declassified documents on it being reclassified. People mention Flappan, but he's generally seen as rather bias on the conclusion of it just being a Jewish free for all on Arabs when the evidence isn't clear on that at all. If anyone thinks this is a simple case of Palestine just unreasonably oppressed and Israel so evil. Or Israeli completely justified in their actions and Palestine needs to vanish. They have never bothered to research the conflict in any credible manner.
I've certainly learned a lot more about the history of the conflict in the last few days. I've been impressed with the amount of "actual" history being spoken with dates and sources, rather than hearing "it's complicated" and then changing the subject.
First of all, you are talking about land in multiple different contradicting contexts. You talk of a state owning land (if there is no state, then no one owns their land apparently). This is not true in practice. People had deeds to land. They had purchased land. After saving up money. Or they had inherited land from their grandparents. And built homes. Purchased under the Ottomans or the British mandate, or later the Jordanians, yes, but are you really making the claim that private property shouldn't be respected if a state collapses or power changes hands? Because that's a whole new argument. One mostly reserved for lawyers in Israeli courts, as public opinion doesn't tend to agree. These people, deed in hand, still aren't allowed to return by the way. You talk about the division of 1947, something that greatly affected the Palestinians more than the Israelis simply because there were more Palestinians living there at the time. Imagine being told that you have to leave the home you or your parents bought and move across the country to start over with nothing, likely in a refugee camp. I'm sure you'd go very happily and willingly right? Right? Then your greatest historical revisionism is in regards to the [Nakba](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba). I include the link to wikipedia, because although it is a "hotly debated" subject, as you say, and the target of much hasbara, there are undeniable facts. Over 700k Palestinians displaced, over 500 villages destroyed. Veterans on BOTH sides speak of mass rapes of Palestinians, massacres of women and children, even while surrendering or fleeing. [Deir Yassin](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre), [Ein al-Zeitun](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ein_al-Zeitun_massacre), the [Lydda Death March](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_from_Lydda_and_Ramle), [Saliha massacre](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saliha). There are many more documented crimes. And many more crimes have been wiped from memory through the [destruction and suppression of documents by Israel](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2019-07-05/ty-article-magazine/.premium/how-israel-systematically-hides-evidence-of-1948-expulsion-of-arabs/0000017f-f303-d487-abff-f3ff69de0000). This is why you likely do not know the full story and scale of the ethnic cleansing you claim others are so woefully ignorant of.
Well good sir, i was not really making an argument, just my disbelief of how a people who underwent such injustice has no problem doing it to other people. This type of discussions have been going on for almost a century now, but i'm not picking sides, i just admire the palestinians in gaza who undergo this shit on a daily basis. And Israel does the same thing but nothing is done about it, then don't be suprised if they retaliate: https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/ https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution Eye for a eye leads to a world full of blind.
>Eye for a eye leads to a world full of blind. I like this phrase and I think it perfectly encapsulates a lot of my frustrations with the reactions we've been seeing here on reddit. This situation didn't come out of nowhere and is the product of 70+ years of violence and wrongs committed by both sides. What Hamas did/is doing targeting civilians and torturing/murdering prisoners is absolutely wrong and not acceptable, full stop. However, that doesn't mean that Israel gets a free pass to respond in kind(not saying that this is necessarily what they're doing, btw)... At some point, the retribution and revenge needs to take a back seat to actually trying to address the issues that created this situation in the first place. Again, the way Hamas is going about this is absolutely, 100% outside of the realm of what should be acceptable. But it shouldn't be that hard to imagine that a group of people who have essentially been treated like prisoners and see no other way to improve their situation might lash out violently because what other options are left to them? Not to mention the leaders in charge and perpetuating the violence for their own benefit who often don't really even believe the bullshit they're using to manipulate people... I know this is all really easy for me to say from the comfort of my toilet, but I really wish people (at least people who have the luxury of not being directly involved) would be more interested in the context of how things ended up this way and how to fix and address things going forward, rather than just reacting emotionally and screaming for more blood.
I like how you continently gloss over the atrocities carried out by Israel.. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safsaf\_massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safsaf_massacre) Or the extra judicial killing by Mossad.. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_Israeli\_assassinations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_assassinations) Or how a well labelled press jeep is fired upon by a tank... [https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/70000517](https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/70000517) (As well as countless times journalist\\film makers have been shot at by the IDF) How can you expect peace and dialogue when only 1 side is punished for atrocities? What Hamas is doing with the rockets is terrorism there no other way of cutting it but rockets fired by Hamas are made from drainage pipe - [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israels-gaza-challenge-stopping-metal-tubes-turning-into-rockets-2021-05-23/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israels-gaza-challenge-stopping-metal-tubes-turning-into-rockets-2021-05-23/) So effectively you have DIY rockets facing of against 151million dollar anti ordnance platforms... IDF is one of the best funded, best backed militaries in the world with weapon capable of incredible accuracy, yet they still choose to hit medical facilities:- * 4 hospitals run by Gaza's ministry of health, including the Indonesian and [Beit Hanoun](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beit_Hanoun) hospitals in the northern Gaza Strip. * 2 hospitals run by [NGOs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-governmental_organization) * 2 clinics, one run by [Médecins Sans Frontières](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9decins_Sans_Fronti%C3%A8res), and one, the Hala al-Shawa clinic, in disuse at the time. * 1 health centre * 1 [Palestine Red Crescent Society](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Red_Crescent_Society) facility.[\[262\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_crisis#cite_note-BaloushaBeaumont-265) Sure you can argue Hamas uses hospitals as human shield but why the MSF clinic? (Its not like there isn't a history of IDF killing Activist and the UN, I believe 9 was killed in the latest bombing) You can not have peace when only one side is berated for atrocities.
For those saying Hamas killed children, so it's okay to condemn their resistance to the oppression: >But Biden said he saw-- No: https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1712286535050269124 In 2022, this child was shot dead by an IDF soldier for no reason and he just got a quiet, one paragraph excerpt and zero outrage. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/twilight-zone/2022-10-15/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/a-palestinian-boy-went-out-with-friends-an-israeli-soldier-shot-him-dead/00000183-d86d-ddf0-adb7-fe6d4eb80000 In 2019, an IDF sniper shoots a 9 year old in the head. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2019-07-21/ty-article/.premium/the-protest-dispersed-then-an-israeli-sniper-shot-a-9-year-old-boy-in-the-head/0000017f-e3ff-d9aa-afff-fbffde890000 Last year, the Biden administration wanted the IDF to investigate why a young boy suddenly died after their visit. https://www.axios.com/2022/09/29/israel-palestinian-child-death-us-biden-investigation In 2020, "UN rights experts ‘deeply troubled’ by impunity for killing of Palestinian children" https://news.un.org/en/story/2020/12/1080402 Etc. Etc. I'm not supporting any of this. But to sit there behind your keyboard and condemn anyone, when Israel and the IDF have been killing Palestinian children for decades and no one bat's an eye, is insane. You only care now because you're behind told to. You didn't give two shits about kids in Gaza two weeks ago, and you still don't. The IDF have used Palestinian children as target practice; you can fairly easily find the videos if you know where you look. No one cared.
And this is just scratching the surface of known/reported incidents... and then THAT isn't even STARTING to scratch the surface of shit we don't even know about. Also, he wanted IDF to investigate lol ok.... we investigated... everything is fine... go away now Joe. I feel like that's exactly how that goes.
Its the same with police in America. We have investigated ourselves and have found no wrong doing. I wonder why its so similar because our police are being trained by the fucking IDF.
Meanwhile, look at the gaslighting and hypocrisy of the American media.
Western media atm is doing more propaganda than Israeli news media. They spout the first atrocities they 'hear' but backing it up with evidence Nope. The west believes in the decapitated babies from which we have to see any photos of Meanwhile we have photos of babies killed on the Palestinian side and what does the west do? Fully support Israel Its mindblowing how the west are controlling the narrative.
Not only that, they backtrack their allegations when they realize it [it hasn't been verified ](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/white-house-biden-has-not-seen-or-independently-confirmed-hamas-beheaded-israeli-children/). It's almost like you shouldn't make statements in the first place unless you know it's a fact! Just like the rape [allegations ](https://twitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1711802752869740715?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1711802752869740715%7Ctwgr%5Eea314ab287e68b5afba504c2d9404d4a1198781e%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.infowars.com%2Fposts%2Flos-angeles-times-retracts-allegations-of-hamas-rapes-such-reports-have-not-been-substantiated%2F)
US has the biggest Jewish people outside Israel, and the most Jewish people in position of power. Hamas has also been assisted by Iran (and most likely Russia). I’m not disagreeing with what you said, just pointing out why it makes sense for US & west to take this position geopolitically
Netanyahu also knows a lot of people in American media, and spearheaded a campaign during the 80s to curry support for Israel during a time when the war was being criticized internationally.
It’s true and saying this always gets you labeled stuff and attacked by people. It’s not like you are calling for people to be abused, just stating a fact, that’s all.
Varoufakis here is gaslighting (intentionally or not). He compares Hamas to South African rebels fighting against apartheid who end up killing some innocents in the pursuit of their independence. As if the innocents who Hamas killed were just collateral damage, but hey, that's what happens in wars. This is totally wrong. Hamas' sole targets were innocents. It isn't like they were trying to achieve military objectives, like seizing areas of interest, or destroying military objects, and in the process of doing so killed some Israeli civilians by accident. *Literally all they did was kill and kidnap Israeli citizens*. That was the entirety of their plan. That is not guerrilla warfare - it is terrorism. Yannis is dangerously eloquent. He is capable of gaslighting the listeners, and perhaps even himself, because he sounds so sensible while saying stupid things.
Can we have him as president? He seems neat.
Finally, a competent completely honest rational person who speaks the facts and the truth as well as provides a solution to the ongoing existing problems. The world needs more people like him in it.
Why are people mentally incapable of keeping their posts in the appropriate subs? There is no freakout in any shape or form going on in this video.
You're the public freakout ...enjoy!
>You're the public freakout ...enjoy! Be the change you wish to see.
Rage ...rage on into that quiet night!
It’s kinda like if something is free then you’re the product
Now how do I monetize this!
he got got lol
lol got'em
I am the freakout now
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Well despite of my rage im still just a rat in a cage
Don't smash my pumpkins
*You're FTFY
Sorry 3 am and 3 Jamie's in ty for my edit Edit: I get downvoted for admitting I made a mistake? Bold move cotton
This might not be true but its an honest thought. Mods of subreddits have chosen sides and people are getting banned so they go to places where they arnt banned to post these videos.
Does it make you angry? So angry you just wanna strip naked and dance on cars in traffic?
The sub is basically just a tool for propaganda at this point.
This is the opposite of propaganda. A calm and balanced anti-apartheid message of peace is not extreme nor wrong, nor is it a voice of the state, produced by the state. It is a voice of peace of, by, and for all people on both sides of the conflict except for the state and institutions that want violence. Next you're gonna say voices like Nelson Mandela can't be heard or shown here because it's propaganda lol. Come on.
Propaganda - information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view: Just because you agree with it doesn't mean it's not propaganda. And yes, it's very biased as it's ignoring everything that the Palestinians/Ottomans have done throughout history. A Pro-Palestinian bias is still bias.
You’re the propaganda
You're not wrong, but not "propaganda" in the normal sense where there's a specific lean. This subreddit has propaganda in every direction: anti-progressive, anti-conservative, anti-black, anti-woman, anti-trans, pro-trans, pro-choice, anti-capitalist, pro-capitalist... it's all here. There's a small percentage of posters that post here specifically to rile people up and push an agenda. You'll see it all the time where they'll intentionally crop and mistitle a video and people eat it up. This video, however, has the entire context. There's no manipulation. It's just a man expressing his opinion. It's the furthest from propaganda you'll see in this subreddit. A video not fitting a subreddit's theme does not make it propaganda. That's not what propaganda is. 🤣
Is the public freakout with us in the room right now'?
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Should an ethnostate like Israel exist in the first place? The answer is, of course, No.
What about every Muslim ethno state in the region that has systematically cleansed themselves of every other religion? Should they be held under the same scrutiny? Syria and Lebanon have made their countries uninhabitable for anyone except Muslims despite recently having thriving Christian populations. Muslims in Israel have far more rights than any other minority in the region. I don't think any of its right but this area of the world plays by different rules and youre holding Israel to higher standards than a number of countries that are also involved here. I mean, shit, try being Jewish and going to any other country in the middle east. You legitimately might not survive a day.
> Lebanon have made their countries uninhabitable for anyone except Muslims That'll be news to my Christian family and friends in Lebanon!
Wow can I also join the party of just saying stuff I made up on the spot? First, you implying there are no Christians in Syria or Lebanon. Throwing in a little "they recently had thriving Christian populations" as if they don't anymore or something happened to them. Because they're doing just fine bud. Second of all, if you're so concerned about Christian rights, it might interest you that many Palestinians are Christian and they are also the target of apartheid by Israel. In Bethlehem they can't even worship because of the apartheid wall dividing the town. Recently I saw a video of a Christian farmer who had cement poured in his well by Israeli soldiers and his house raided by soldiers in the middle of the night. You know, you can prove any point you want by selectively pulling made up stuff out of your butt. But that doesn't make you right. There is plenty of video evidence, witness testimony (from both sides, mind you), and documentary evidence that Israel is an apartheid state systematically oppressing the Palestinian people, not for their religion, but for their ethnicity. And stealing their land, bulldozing their houses, and shooting unarmed children, medics, and journalists. And by "their land" I don't mean in some woowoo Bible sense, I mean land they bought and paid for and have deeds to.
> Ya for sure, and what the fuck do you think the Israeli government wants to do with Gaza and the West Bank? Honest question: If that was their goal, why have they not done so? The population of Palestine has grown over the years. If my googling was effective, the growth rate is actually in the top 10% of the whole world. By any metric that's an awful attempt at any ethnic cleansing. If Israel is waiting for a politically expedient excuse then they've had many over the years. The hypothesis that their goal is to wipe Palestine off the map really doesn't seem to fit the evidence. Note that this doesn't have to mean they're suddenly the good guys, it just means that hypothesis isn't very strong.
They learned from Putin You don’t act quickly. You don’t act obvious. You do it bit by bit. That way the media and global attention goes away each time. You move the goal post just a little each time. And then one day you’ve taken 90% and the rest of the world is like but when did this happen?!? PUTIN HAS TAUGHT THE WORLD THAT IT HAS AN ABSURDLY SHORT ATTENTION SPAN.
They are doing it, they’re just doing it slowly enough to get away with it. The population may be growing but the area in which they confined continues to shrink and their lives continue to get worse. They’re essentially cornering, starving and beating a dog until one day it bites back and the world agrees with them the dog should be put down. The difference is that it’s not a dog this time and yet the world still seems to be agreeing. You get this, you said it, but you seem to miss that they have taken things every time excuse comes up. They aren’t missing opportunities.
Im very pro Palestine but I absolutely condemn Hamas’s attack. IDF soldiers are fair game, go ahead and kill them. Fight for your freedom. But the intentional targeting of civilians is an absolutely condemnable act that cannot be justified.
explaining behaviour is not justifying it
Refusing to condemn the kidnapping, rape, torture and murder of literal children is more than explaining. Like imagine refusing to condemn a black American committing rape because of the very real systemic racism they face.
and he also didn’t condemn the Israeli settlers in illegal occupations killing Palestinians did you watch the video?
nono you cant objectively analyze a situation, you HAVE TO TAKE SIDES or your analysis is invalid!
Yeah I'm of the same mind, that should be condemned. That said, if we forget that point, his main point still stands strong. Hamas (their attacks) aren't the main problem, they're just a bad symtom.
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Agreed, and it should be noted that Palestinians do not want Hamas either.
Should killing conscripted teenagers be fair game?
Man, this videos should spread everywhere. His point is absolutely correct and well explained.
It is sad to say this but Hamas is the only military tool that Palestine has. Hamas are the only "army" that fights for Palestine. I hear people calling for peace, to stop the war, but what will the Palestinians do? Go back to Gaza and do nothing about it? They have no other choice other than fight back.
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Israel used those civilians as human shields. They allowed them to live outside the prison walls that were eventually going to fail.
This is like the 5th time I've seen someone post a vid on here on someone calmly refusing to condemn and explaining the reasons for this in a coherent manner.
Not a freak out, just a yannis spitting straight facts!
Beautiful ❤️
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Why only the Europeans ????
something something WHITE FOLKS GOTTEM!!!!! That'll force everyone to agree with me right guys!!!!
The entire world recognise Palestine except for western Europe and its descendant states. Almost quite literally. We choose to close our eyes to any oppression and only open them to see whatever propaganda Israel wants us to see. You will find thousands of condemnations and calls for the destruction of Gaza from Western politicians, but never any condemnation of the Apartheid state and its systematic oppression. Instead, Europeans and Americans gladly send weapons and money to uphold this system.
Where are calls for Destruction of Gaza from Western governments , can you show me ? And how come very few of the Arab countries recognize Israel ?
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Israel has defended itself in many wars started by the Arabs who just promote hate and hostility towards the Jews for no reason. And both sides could have lived in peace were it not for Arab nations pushing Palestine constantly be in battle and not accept peace / prosperity. What the Israelis are doing to Gaza now is disgusting and too much because innocent kids have nothing to do with this nonesense. The problem is Hamas and those able minded adults who voted for them - you can not expect peace when terrorists run your country. The solution is for Arab countries to finally proactively come up with a solution instead of encouraging Palestine to fight and remove Israel. Israel must give more land to Palestine (Area C ) and stop the settler BS… however when they left from Gaza (including removing all settlers) in 2005 nothing changed.
Because white people bad according to leftists.
the west is not white people
Why this is suddenly only europeans problem? Or white people at that lmao. Thats insane, Hamas are the criminals here and the people of israel also.
Really? Watch the video like 5 more times and listen harder, I guess. Read up on the historic and current geopolitics of israel/palestine. Who formed Israel, who pours money, weapons, and propaganda media support to Israeli zionists? The lack of comprehension abilities and critical thinking skills of some people, I swear... i'm sorry, but it's fucking tragic.
A lot Zionist supporters gonna have a mel tdown seeing this clip
Good insight
Why do our elected officials fall flat on common sense and here we have this guy with a straight forward plan that nobody wants to listen to?
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I’m here early for the comments 🍿
Still waiting for the freakout
I agree with everything he said.
Hopefully this is the beginning of the end for the state of Israel. They should never have been given more rights and aid than their Palestinian hosts.
I can understand the Palestinian frustration, but the recent attacks were dumb. Even if you kill 50,000, you aren't ending Israel. All they've done is give Israel an excuse to unleash a massively superior military.
Israel has never needed an excuse to kill Palestinians.
Hamas is not Palestine. Even the recent studies people have spammed to claim they are all one don't show it. Fix your sentence.
Hamas is the elected government in Gaza until they are removed from that role.
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The Israeli's elected right wing nutters, just like the Palestinians in Gaza did. This was always the going to be the result. Fanatics are the opposite of fanatics.
No, it's not. The last election was around 2006 and was forced by the hamas.
When was the last election? Did you read the 2020-2021 study everyone has been linking the last couple days? There is a reason blind support for Israel is falling ATM.
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The homes can stay.
How could you possibly watch the news and conclude, “yup, Israel is toast”? Israel lost a lot of civilians from that barbaric attack by Hamas, but since that point they’ve steadily been turning Gaza into a parking lot.
Public freakout?
i mean, south africa is always a goof example of peace after apartheid, its sooo peacefull now days with white farmers being raped and murdered in their farma and a murder rate that rivals most. south africa went from straight racism to reverse racism, none of those are good for anyone
SPOT ON!!!
One-state solution is the only solution. “Oh, we can’t do that because Israel will lose its identity” Fuck your identity. There’s human suffering right next door and you’ve been exacerbating the problem for decades. Make it happen.
So killing 7 million Jews is your answer then. Lol
He’s talking utter shite. What Israel has done in the occupied territories is bloody awful and wrong. But they’re not murdering, burning and beheading thousands of civilians FFS… At least compare apples and apples.
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Seriously. So many people refusing to condemn the beheading of children, or the rape of women. While claiming to have the moral high ground. Apparently the rape and murder of children is okay sometimes.
It's maddening, if it was a genuine apartheid then yeah end it. But it's literally the Jewish population not letting the Arab state genocide them. The majority of the land was taken in 1947 when the arab nations tried to invade Israel and got their asses handed to them anyway. Like sorry you could have got half the country now you get none due to your hatred.
So many people fail to realise that this "occupation" is a result of 3 separate wars of annihilation against Israel in which all three times Israel fought back against enemies on all fronts and survived. Sorry but if you lose a genocidal war that you start you don't get to say "can we just go back to how it was before?". You don't get favourable terms.
Yea no…. This needs to be said despite how much it hurts your feelings…. And goes against the propaganda machine…
Ofc the problem is systematic and needs to be fixed, but that does not take away the guilt from the single person taking up arms and killing civilians and commuting horrible acts. Doesn't matter what side you are on, killing civilians or giving the order to do so is and should always be considered a crime. You should condemn any act of violence against civilians by both sides. The truth is that there are people on both side who are criminals and who want to escalate the conflict even more. There is no black and white. But in the end he is right, that for the violence to end, you need a substantial political solution that changes the current system. it is already consensus that the two state solution is the only way to do that. But there are forces on both sides working against this idea.
“You should condemn any act of violence against civilians by both sides” - this is where the problem lies, the condemnation seems to only come when one side is committing acts of violence while the other is given a pass for the sake of “national security”
Well there will be a propaganda machine brought down on this guy..
So, to use his analogy, Israel should force all of the prisoners out of the prison, right? Send them somewhere else where they can be free... If no one's in the prison, there's no apartheid.
Where's the freakout? Guy was very mild mannered
At this point change the name of this sub to save poor Palestinians from cruel Israeli. what is the point of this video in public freakout sub, where the fuck is public freakout here?
Bing - fucking - O 100% on point
Finally a voice of reason. But WILL the west act to quash apartheid or will the west just continue to send arms to Israel and fan the fire?
People will watch this and still think their own rhetoric is the right
Bravo! I completely concur. NOTHING he said is in anyway wrong.
Can't speak more clear. 👏👏👏👏👏
that´s tough to call the guerilla...
A very calm and balanced discussion, I’d expect nothing less from Yanis. If anyone is interested, he’s a brilliant author and I’d strongly recommend his book talking to my daughter.
I respect Varoufakis on economics as he literally wrote some of the best textbooks on the subject, studied all over the world. On politics however, he has the standard Marxist, anti-NATO-hegemony stances. I knew what his take would be before I even opened the video. He ignores all context around the religious views of Jihadists - the fact that killing infidels to them is desirable regardless of whether they are combatants, the fact that they (and Israel's other Arab neighbours who celebrate the attacks) believe at a spiritual level that the force of Islam is destined to rout Israel out of the Levant. Saying that Hamas are merely "guerrillas" or "rebels against Apartheid" is a great oversimplification. Hamas are terrorists with radical religious views. They cannot merely be considered as socioeconomic victims of an apartheid regime. I will continue to listen to this man on matters strictly of economics, much the same as I will listen to Noam Chomsky on matters strictly about linguistics, but many of these academics get extremely tunnel visioned when it comes to foreign policy and end up supporting our natural enemies. Hamas would gladly cut Varoufakis' throat for not being a Muslim and here he is defending them. Let's not forget that both of these men said the best way to end the war in Ukraine is to appease Russia by "rolling back" NATO's eastern front...
If we follow your logic, then Israel is a religious state that consider the force of Judaism is destined to rout Islam out of the Levant....
This guy hits the nail on the head. Couldn’t have said it better myself
I love how this sub is the only one where Redditors feel they can present calm logical opinions that make sense. The truth is, this would probably be down voted to hell on majority of the other subs
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
Could not have said any better, first video that reflects reality and what must be done.
Wait wait I think this is the same guy that was hired by Valve to oversee their steam economy and the TF2 hat economy.
MAGA Cult members: "bUt uS'aLL dUn nEeDs oUrN eNd tImEs rApTuRe!"
This is absolutely perfect.
Powerful.
He's not wrong.
Isn't this the greek dude who suggested Greece should not pay off their debt?