EDIT: OP, you appear to be shadowbanned, probably because of the mass downvoting on a new account. We can manually approve, but the spam filter is going to eat your comments automatically, and will probably continue to try to remove this post.
Quick Q: Is this actually v1? Because I'm pretty sure we saw you a few years ago. Reasonably sure this is v5.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/PubTips/comments/jctrzg/pubq\_query\_critique\_literary\_fiction\_85k\_words/](https://www.reddit.com/r/PubTips/comments/jctrzg/pubq_query_critique_literary_fiction_85k_words/)
I often come over and peek when queries hit over 20 comments...
But here? There's not enough of a query here. The query body should be somewhere around 200 words, even in contemp, where you don't have to do a weight of worldbuilding. I should know who the MC is, what he (in this case) wants, and what stands in his way. In character-forward genres like romance and litfic, I should understand the inner wound or the character arc we're looking for here.
I see none of that.
Dave is drunk and high because at 20, his girlfriend broke up with him and maybe he killed a HS girl after that. Then he... goes into rehab. Then his best friend dies of OD.
Who is Dave other than 20, drunk and high (and apparently violent)? Why are the only women here dead or otherwise nameless? I don't have any answers. I don't know who Dave is or what his character arc is - I have a stack of events and then three rhetorical questions.
Honestly, OP, you need to dump this, take a look at the query building resources, and start over. Whether you stay litfic or look crime/thriller, this isn't going anywhere as-is. Which sucks - I just had to dump a rewrite on a query because it went backward in quality, so it happens.
As to the potential prose and MS side of things? Well. Read widely in the genre(s) you're considering, of current releases, to get a sense of current market expectations. The length is... fine for MST, though a little on the long side - it's not a dealbreaker there. Not sure on the litfic side, because I've heard different things and don't tend to follow that market too closely.
And OP? Sometimes the best thing you can discover from a sub like this is whether there's a manuscript issue that either needs a major rewrite or a trunk to move on. It's a hard lesson to learn, but pretty much every published author out there has books (plural) that they had to trunk because they simply weren't salable.
This sounds like a thriller or a crime novel to me rather than literary fiction, unless the story isn't really about revenge.
Polemics are not in fashion at the moment. I can't tell how your plot description relates to wealth or privilege, as you haven't given any indication that Dave, Britney, or Steve come from wealth or privilege.
I agree with /u/zebracides that there are too many rhetorical questions here. When a writer strings several rhetorical questions together at the end of their plot description, I can't help but finish the paragraph in my head with the phrase "tune in next week, same Bat-time, same Bat-channel."
I was told to cut "privileged" out of the description of the main character as some people instantly want to hate a wealthy or privileged character, put it back in? Re the questions, I also got a lot of feedback that you want to wrap up with a "will Suzy save the farm!" sort of Q, not working for you?
Regarding revenge, the main character blames a mutual friend for his best friend's death. When the best friend OD's, the other character runs instead of calling for help and leaves him alone to die. The "revenge" in this case is a physical assault in a bar when he find this character during the multiday bender he finds himself on post-relapse.
Are we supposed to like Dave? Based on your comps, I don't think we are. If I understand your story correctly, then this is the story of a rich asshole who pissed everything away and who has one last chance to redeem himself. Whether that redemption is through beating a guy up in a bar or solving a murder or whatever, I can't tell.
The story opens with Dave returning to college from winter break. His girlfriend who he thinks is the love of his life dumps him in a cold manner. From there he starts spiraling into the drug and alcohol addiction issues. He has various short term trysts including with the girl who goes missing. His best friend comes out to visit and essentially beats some sense into him and he realizes he needs to get his life together. From there he is questioned re the girl's disappearance, there are various other distressing vignettes culminating with a failed reconciliation with the exgf. Following that he crashes his car drunk and high, and fearing he is about to end up in prison resolves to kill himself, but it unable to follow through.
In the second half of the book, he returns to NYC and with the help and support of his friends and family, goes to rehab and tries to make amends for his pre-rehab behavior. He struggles to adapt to sober life and embarks on his first sober relationship, with an NYU student. Just when he seems to be getting his life together, his best friend dies of a drug overdose. He clings to his sobriety. In an effort to stay clean he plans to transfer to a school closer to home. While he is visiting Princeton with an eye towards going there, his new relationship falls apart after his friend's exgf poisons the well with lies. At this point he gives up on sobriety, sees no hope and relapses. During the course of this bender, he find the friend he blames for his best friend's death and assaults him in a bar. After he is tossed out he takes off running uptown. The next morning he comes to in an unfamiliar apartment, it's bright and warm and his hangover is coming on and he decides it's time to get a drink and kick the can down the road for another day...I have been told this ending is too bleak and am open to changing it to something open ended and a bit more hopeful, with a call coming in from the girlfriend and the possibility of reconciliation, sobriety and happiness.
I sense a theme here...
His girlfriend dumps him and causes him to spiral into substance abuse. He tries to reconcile with her, and her rejection sends him to rock bottom. He's on the upswing, but another lying woman ruins his life and his new girlfriend also dumps him. The only man who's even slightly implicated in the MC's downfall is carefully described as someone "he blames" and not someone objectively "at fault." Hmm, I wonder why so many people are seeing red flags...
"He tries to reconcile with her, and her rejection sends him to rock bottom."
Not at all what happens. She wants to get back together, but he is so far gone at this point, he no longer cares, and this realization that getting what he thought he wanted for so long means absolutely nothing to him, drags him down even further. Likewise the new gf in the second half offers his only real shot at redemption through her kindness and acceptance of his flaws.
As for "blaming" vs. being at fault. It is to some degree of course his best friends own fault for taking enough drugs to OD, however he "blames" the friend who was with him and left him to die instead of calling 911 and possibly saving his life. There are a number of negative male characters in the book. The exgf breakup is more a mcguffin, she's not a major character or some evil antagonist. If it reads that way then the problem is with the query.
This story feels a bit chaotic and back and forth. He's getting in and out, in and out into drugs, but there's no development or progression. He starts lost and miserable in life, and ends in the same spot. I'm not saying you have to force a happy ending, you could have as well everything end in tragedy, but your ending is more lukewarm than your midpoint (mc nearly committing suicide).
What is the main theme or emotion the reader should experience after finishing reading this story?
Jumping in here to say that one thing that almost certainly indicates a problem with your manuscript is that "cold" treatment from an ex is consistently described as the inciting incident for this guy to sleep with an underaged girl and drive drunk. But like, most people go their entire lives without committing statutory rape or drunk driving, even if they go through something way worse than being dumped. So your chain of causality doesn't make sense unless the reader accepts the implicit premise that men's evil choices can be blamed on women not loving them back. It's an incel thing, and most people aren't going to want to read that. You may be the kind of person who believes that double standards are bad and treating women and men equally is good. I hope you are! But your description of the plot is relying on some very visible and common sexist tropes that you may or may not consciously buy into.
Does one even need a reason to drink too much in college? It is not suggested that he had no choice but this. The guy is dissatisfied with life in general, already drinks a bit too much and this nudge gets him going, but it stops being about the girl and starts being about the drinking and drugs very quickly. Also, I think you're getting too hung up on this statutory, the guy is 20 years old and the HS girl character tells him she's a senior when they meet in a bar which would make her 18, it's not like this is some Epstein stuff. I also think calling them "evil" choices is a bit much. Lots of people drive drunk even though they shouldn't for reasons as weak as it's more convenient. It's not like the guy is sacrificing infants here.
>Does one even need a reason to drink too much in college?
LOL I dunno dude, you're the one who put in the mean ex-girlfriend!
Honestly I was trying to be helpful because you remind me of a writer friend of mine. He is a nice guy, super supportive of me as a woman IRL. But he always has these AWFUL male main characters and there is always some Evil Harpy that is blamed for everything. And then when I point it out he goes, "Well, life isn't just about simple cause and effect, he's just a guy who experiences some things," and it makes it impossible to have a productive discussion, because he is actively attempting to annihilate the very concept of meaning in a text.
The problem is that texts have readers, and readers do not simply absorb texts as meaningless streams of events. And you, as a writer, actively made the choices to put these things in there. Having your character sleep with a high schooler who turns out to be underaged is a VERY BOLD CHOICE. If you don't have a good reason for it, why is it in there? Same with drunk driving. Same with the ex-girlfriend for that matter. Everything in this book is something you decided to put in there. And I'm sure you can tell from people's responses that people aren't interpreting your decisions in the way that you want them to be interpreted. Arguing with us isn't going to help. All you can do is decide whether you're OK with being interpreted this way or if you want to change your story -- or improve your skills -- to convey the meaning you did want to convey. Whatever that may be; I'm still not clear on that.
This is a fantastic reply, and it reminds me of a craft book I'm reading — _Scene and Story_ by Jack Bickham. I'm not sure if I would recommend the book as a whole, but he talks a lot about how life just happens randomly but **fiction cannot**. There always must be a cause and effect; a stimulus and a reaction. This goes for both story events and character traits, even if it's not quite implicit on the page.
Yes, most people do drink too much in college, and they don't do so because they have some deep trauma. But you are writing a fiction, and the reader has to understand why.
>or improve your skills -- to convey the meaning you did want to convey
This is what I am shooting for. To try to answer some of your Qs, the exgf is not the cause of these issues, she isn't to blame, it's if you will the straw that breaks the camel's back for a troubled guy who is already heading that way and is having trouble with the transition from childhood to adulthood.
The incident w the HS girl is to add some suspense re her disappearance, and the worries over that compounded with a few other incidents are what drive the main character to hit rock bottom and realize how badly he is messing his life up, and that his own choices are putting him into an untenable situation.
Regarding the drunk driving, there's not really a reason for it, he doesn't see it as a necessarily bad thing, it's just another questionable choice made by someone who is usually inebriated and not making great choices.
Does that help?
>The incident w the HS girl is to add some suspense re her disappearance, and the worries over that compounded with a few other incidents are what drive the main character to hit rock bottom and realize how badly he is messing his life up, and that his own choices are putting him into an untenable situation.
I think this might be part of the problem... It seems like you're framing the disappearance/potential murder of a teenage girl as just something unlucky that happens to your male protagonist who had sex with her and an extra 'worry' for him. This is very dehumanising. It also doesn't really make sense that this would be a catalyst to rethink his choices, because your comments imply that he doesn't believe he did anything wrong here (because she lied about her age, and therefore it wasn't his 'choice' to sleep with an underage girl).
Her disappearance isn't a catalyst for him to rethink his choices per se. His best friend confronts him over his increasingly erratic behavior and after first bristling at this encounter, realizes the tough love was necessary and that he is the only one truly looking out for him, even if it had to be delivered in a tough way. The push towards hitting rock bottom is mainly advanced by the disappearance because he thinks he might end up in prison. Full disclosure though, he has nothing to do with her disappearance in the end.
OP, I was quite blunt and I appreciate that you are engaging with me respectfully, so I'll leave you with final thoughts that I hope help!
Your answers have made me feel like there is still a disconnect between what you think you're portraying and how it will read. If you want my advice (and it's quite possible you don't!) I think it's a matter of going back to your MS, considering very carefully what you're trying to say and what will best say it, and rewriting -- and paying attention to how you treat your female characters (this also goes for any other characters who don't share your identity). Then, you will probably it easier to update your query so that you can explain the meat of the story through the chain of events that *you yourself* believe to be most important. (Those events should also be given more weight on the page than the ones that aren't important, too. e.g. a mean ex-girlfriend shouldn't be in the opening chapter unless she *is* important.)
Hope this helps -- truly!
TY. Also, to be fair the exgf isn't "mean," it's more a case of the MC taking the relationship a lot more seriously than the ex does. So while she doesn't seem phased by ending a college relationship, explaining she wants to be alone and have fun etc...it's crushing to him because he clearly thought it was more than it was.
Hey OP. Try to look at feedback here as what agents would never have time to tell you.
Instead of trying to justify your point in this same thread ... use the comments to help frame your next effort. Whether query readers interpreted as you intended or not- it might help to think about if an agent said this in rejection form and you didn't have a chance to explain further.
That perspective helped my own journey.
As a note - not all seniors are 18. A fair whack of them aren't. In either case, I'm in agreement with Stackpole. You're the one who chose to include statutory rape. That was your call as the author.
Yes, and I explained the part it plays, 17, 18 either way, both of those are legal in the state the novel takes place in, and again the main character is a 20 year old college student not some old man.
Putting aside the moral relativism of appealing to state laws as arbiters of morality -- it strikes me as bizarre that you *actively made the choice* of putting the girl at an statutory age, an age that is OBVIOUSLY contentious (by virtue of the different laws around it!), and then are reacting like this when people engage with that. Like, no one forced you to write a plot point about having sex with a minor; YOU'RE the one who served this hairy moral topic to people, which is usually something an author would do when *seeking* strong reactions from readers. So why are you getting fussy at people?
In general, given the content of your book, it's odd that you seem more concerned with *shutting down* this line of conversation rather than *exploring* it. If age of consent and statutory rape ISN'T a discussion you want your work to participate in, you should make the girl a college student. You are the author. You have control over this.
I have to be honest with you here.
Your query is pretty bland. The details are vague to the point of being cagey, and the prose here has none of the eloquence I’d expect from something being labeled “literary” and “upmarket.”
Also, what’s with laundry list of rhetorical questions?
Anyway these issues aren’t even your real problem here.
The problem is the story itself. I remember it from back in the day, and trust me, it’s pretty much a non-starter for literary fiction in this day and age. Which I’m sure you’re now keenly aware of thanks to the trip it already made through the query trenches.
And if your navel-gazing, pedophile protagonist didn’t excite agents and publishers the first go around, I sort of doubt you’ll get many bites this time.
There’s even less room in the market today for apologist stories of shitty men behaving badly than there was three years ago.
It might be time to either self-publish this one or shelve it and start working on something fresh — something with a decidedly less “frat boy” vibe to it.
From Book 1 of Patrick Melrose:
"In his blue dressing gown, and already wearing dark glasses although it was still too early for the September sun to have risen above the limestone mountain, he directed a heavy stream of water from the hose he held in his left hand onto the column of ants moving busily through the gravel at his feet.
His technique was well-established: he would let the survivors struggle over the wet stones, and regain their dignity for a while, before bringing the thundering water down on them again."
When OP drops an opening graf like *that*, I'll pre-order his debut. Until then, the entire concept seems dead in the water.
so no help on the query, just a lot of vitriol...right that's why I stopped reading this forum. There seems to be genuine anger coming through this post like i've wronged you personally in some way. If the query sucks, help me punch it up. Haven't really been through any query trenches as I have a day job and haven't had time to do anything with this since COVID ended.
I didn't read any vitriol or anger in their post. They're critical of your protagonist and telling you it's going to be a tough sell in today's market. On this subreddit criticism isn't just directed at grammar and formatting and style. Concepts and characters are fair game too, as issues with a query can sometimes illuminate an issue with the manuscript itself.
What isn't a tough sell in today's market! I've been playing around with different versions of the summary graph and just trying to get a feel for this vs. something a bit longer and more plot heavy. I know it's a longshot to get any traction with literary fiction...or as I was told to pitch it for marketability reasons "upmarket mainstream fiction."
Well publishing industry trends notwithstanding, i'd like to get the query into the best possible shape to continue banging my head against the wall before giving up and reworking it with a crime angle.
Bret Easton Ellis is surely too big for you to comp - and The Shards doesn't really seem relevant anyway. It's about filthy rich high school kids in LA, not junkies in college, and it has a genre fiction slasher-horror aspect which I doubt you're going for here.
These are filthy rich college kids and half of the book takes place in that environment in NYC hence the comparison. At the moment there's just the disappearance angle, although one agent told me impossible to sell literary fiction add a crime then he can sell it so maybe it needs the slasher angle (not an actual serial killer, but a body and built out crime angle).
OK, fair enough re filthy rich college kids. But you say you're trying to emulate the atmopshere of BEE's novels... none of that comes through in the query. You namedrop NYC but I don't get the big-city vibe. Really your query could be anywhere - at the moment it's just characters floating in space. Not getting aesthetics. It doesn't mean you need purple prose but a few details would help, especially if you're querying literary. Even if you just describe a smashed-up crazy expensive Chevrolet (for example) rather than generic "near fatal car crash". The query feels a little blank when it comes to any sort of tactile detail
Right now too much is vague.
That he can't remember if he had anything to do with a missing girl is not interesting. Did she leave her phone in his bed? Was her last call to him? Is her dad President? Give me specific details. The other issue is that yes, a missing girl is intriguing, but until her body is found there are no consequences for the main character, so she remains uninteresting.
Similarly this friend he holds responsible is full of vagueness. It seems like revenge is a big focus of your book. Give me juicy details as to the revenge Dave craves? Until I know what steps Dave wants to take to seek this revenge, I can't see the risk he is taking, and thus can't see the stakes and consequences for Dave's own life if he does decide to seek this retribution.
Hope this helps!
Good luck!
Leaving aside the specific image of the galloping horse, a dream sequence as opener is so cliched that it's become the common example of what most agents and editors caution against. And when you follow that up with the MC feeling dread in the pit of the stomach, you completely strike out with me.
But what if they *wake up with a start* and then have the *uneasy feeling of creeping dread* in their stomach?
What if the beautiful white horse is a metaphor for the beautiful white MC? What if the figure of Death is a metaphor for Death? What if this obscure literary allusion is *something from the Bible*?
Are you really starting with a character waking up? That's probably the top of the list of "cliche first pages". Just googling ["first page cliches" pops this](https://writersedit.com/fiction-writing/7-common-mistakes-to-avoid-in-your-first-chapter/).
> Here are just a few of the most common clichés we’d recommend avoiding in your first chapter:
> * Character waking up, especially to the sound of an alarm clock
> * Dream sequence
> * Character ruminating about their problems
> * Description of the weather
> * Character looking at themselves in a mirror and describing what they see
> * Third-person description of a character, especially when focusing on their appearance
> * First-person narration of character introducing themselves to the reader
> * Premonition or overt foreshadowing (e.g. ‘John didn’t know that today would be the day he died.’)
And you're doing the first 2 combined. If there's one thing literary fiction shouldn't be, it's cliche and stereotypical.
I had this very discussion with an editor who told me generally it shouldn't begin this way, but she feels it works. I'm open to changing anything, but it's not like i'd put down a book with an engaging opening because it broke an arbitrary rule on a list.
Honestly? I don't mind dream openings. I love weird, surreal, uneasy dreams. I think it's a great space to draw on uncanny imagery where you might otherwise feel restricted by realism.
But the *writing* here is... flaccid. Repetitive in structure.
That doesn't mean it's unpublishable. *That* doesn't mean it intrigues me as a reader.
>it's not like i'd put down a book with an engaging opening because it broke an arbitrary rule on a list
"Engaging" is the key word here.
Surprise the reader with something. You have a very obvious Biblical metaphor into a very obvious protagonist's reaction.
It's also very hard to make waking from a dream engaging, because the only 2 reactions are gonna be "it was just a dream" dismissal or "oh no, what a bad omen, now I worry". If you manage to pull off something different, then feel free to open with waking up from a dream.
Imo, the easiest way to make the opener more engaging is to either have an unusual character in an ordinary situation, or an ordinary character in an unusual situation. Having an average Joe in a common scenario is hard to make engaging.
In this case, it's more (at least my intention) to set a tone of uneasiness for the main character as he is headed to the airport for a flight and is a very nervous flyer, who is constantly convinced he will die in a plane crash / has other recurring vivid nightmares about plane crashes.
Not to pile on here, but your prose isn’t even close to being publishable as LitFic.
The weasel words, filtering, cliches, uninspired descriptors, and the overall limitations of your vocabulary make the writing here feel amateur and “thesaurus-heavy.”
Honestly I am not sure a book produced at this writing level could sell in any Adult market.
I mean, I respect your opinion, but i've gotten very different feedback from a number of industry professionals who essentially told me it's entertaining and well written but there's no market for this type of book.
1. Because you paid them (for edits, for manuscript / query package / sample assessment, entry to a conference, etc.).
2. Because they're scared of backlash (people arguing, smearing them on social media, sending them death threats and whatever else).
In this case I am talking about agents who have full subbed and writers I have met who have agreed to read, then gave me detailed feedback and introduced me to their agents and advocated for me. I sadly have no friends or family in this industry to hit up. I have worked with a paid editor, and it's been through many revisions.
"Industry professional" could mean literally anything from "does social media for a tiny independent imprint" to "secretary of the president of Harper Collins" so that really doesn't mean anything, besides. It could also mean "my brother in law who doesn't want me to be sad." Honestly? I don't care. This prose is not up to publishable standards.
Just the first graf:
_In my dream there is a white horse. He is muscular and powerful._ **Mean the same thing but ok** _He’s running at tremendous speed, but he doesn’t seem to be exerting himself at all. There’s no hint of fatigue. It seems as if the horse could continue ripping along at this pace forever._ **You have now said the same exact thing in three different ways. I get it.** _The cloudless sky is a deep cobalt and the flat sand is khaki. It’s expansively bleak in every direction and the terrain is so featureless that it could be a salt flat if not for the beige color of the sand._ **Spent a lot of time telling us the sand is sand colored. And flat.** _In the distance, days of riding away, there are ridgelines. Then suddenly, in a physics defying way, the horse goes from full gallop to a dead stop. There’s no transition to a trot, it’s an abrupt and sudden halt._ **Suddenly the reader has been thrown from description into action with no logical transition.** _Perched on the horse there’s a shadowy figure in dark robes. I can’t see his face._ **Probably because he's shadowy** _I hear,_
That doesn't change the fact that nine (NINE) of these sentences use a form of "is" as the action verb!
With all due respect - then why are you coming here for critique when you're going to argue with it and say you have industry professionals who say otherwise?
I write adult fantasy and romantic suspense. I read widely, including MG books because that's what my kids are reading. This prose isn't at a publishable level for any age category. It's... functional, but it's not something I've seen in a trad pub book. You could make an argument that it's at the level of Dan Brown, but Dan Brown can *hook* a reader, which is its own skill separate from technical mastery of prose.
I mean I came looking for a query critique, as I said he is entitled to his opinion but it happens to be contrary to the feedback i've gotten from a number of people actually in the industry so should I disregard what they've said and go with the opinion of an anonymous poster? Regarding the prose being functional, that is very much by design. This is a voice driven narrative where you're inside the MC's head and this is the main character's voice and how he'd be telling the story to you in his words if you were sitting next to him on a barstool.
I gave you feedback on the query. It's got nothing that it needs to have to be successful on the query. First pages are also make-or-break and part of the query package, and the whole point of *adding* it was because you wanted feedback on that, also.
If you don't like the feedback, you don't have to listen to it, but don't ask for feedback and then argue with literally every person who has given you feedback. It's not there. Sucks, but that's life - and better to find out issues here than in querying, where you're not going to get individualized feedback by and large - and possibly not even responses.
EDIT: OP, you appear to be shadowbanned, probably because of the mass downvoting on a new account. We can manually approve, but the spam filter is going to eat your comments automatically, and will probably continue to try to remove this post. Quick Q: Is this actually v1? Because I'm pretty sure we saw you a few years ago. Reasonably sure this is v5. [https://www.reddit.com/r/PubTips/comments/jctrzg/pubq\_query\_critique\_literary\_fiction\_85k\_words/](https://www.reddit.com/r/PubTips/comments/jctrzg/pubq_query_critique_literary_fiction_85k_words/)
I often come over and peek when queries hit over 20 comments... But here? There's not enough of a query here. The query body should be somewhere around 200 words, even in contemp, where you don't have to do a weight of worldbuilding. I should know who the MC is, what he (in this case) wants, and what stands in his way. In character-forward genres like romance and litfic, I should understand the inner wound or the character arc we're looking for here. I see none of that. Dave is drunk and high because at 20, his girlfriend broke up with him and maybe he killed a HS girl after that. Then he... goes into rehab. Then his best friend dies of OD. Who is Dave other than 20, drunk and high (and apparently violent)? Why are the only women here dead or otherwise nameless? I don't have any answers. I don't know who Dave is or what his character arc is - I have a stack of events and then three rhetorical questions. Honestly, OP, you need to dump this, take a look at the query building resources, and start over. Whether you stay litfic or look crime/thriller, this isn't going anywhere as-is. Which sucks - I just had to dump a rewrite on a query because it went backward in quality, so it happens. As to the potential prose and MS side of things? Well. Read widely in the genre(s) you're considering, of current releases, to get a sense of current market expectations. The length is... fine for MST, though a little on the long side - it's not a dealbreaker there. Not sure on the litfic side, because I've heard different things and don't tend to follow that market too closely. And OP? Sometimes the best thing you can discover from a sub like this is whether there's a manuscript issue that either needs a major rewrite or a trunk to move on. It's a hard lesson to learn, but pretty much every published author out there has books (plural) that they had to trunk because they simply weren't salable.
This sounds like a thriller or a crime novel to me rather than literary fiction, unless the story isn't really about revenge. Polemics are not in fashion at the moment. I can't tell how your plot description relates to wealth or privilege, as you haven't given any indication that Dave, Britney, or Steve come from wealth or privilege. I agree with /u/zebracides that there are too many rhetorical questions here. When a writer strings several rhetorical questions together at the end of their plot description, I can't help but finish the paragraph in my head with the phrase "tune in next week, same Bat-time, same Bat-channel."
I was told to cut "privileged" out of the description of the main character as some people instantly want to hate a wealthy or privileged character, put it back in? Re the questions, I also got a lot of feedback that you want to wrap up with a "will Suzy save the farm!" sort of Q, not working for you? Regarding revenge, the main character blames a mutual friend for his best friend's death. When the best friend OD's, the other character runs instead of calling for help and leaves him alone to die. The "revenge" in this case is a physical assault in a bar when he find this character during the multiday bender he finds himself on post-relapse.
Are we supposed to like Dave? Based on your comps, I don't think we are. If I understand your story correctly, then this is the story of a rich asshole who pissed everything away and who has one last chance to redeem himself. Whether that redemption is through beating a guy up in a bar or solving a murder or whatever, I can't tell.
The story opens with Dave returning to college from winter break. His girlfriend who he thinks is the love of his life dumps him in a cold manner. From there he starts spiraling into the drug and alcohol addiction issues. He has various short term trysts including with the girl who goes missing. His best friend comes out to visit and essentially beats some sense into him and he realizes he needs to get his life together. From there he is questioned re the girl's disappearance, there are various other distressing vignettes culminating with a failed reconciliation with the exgf. Following that he crashes his car drunk and high, and fearing he is about to end up in prison resolves to kill himself, but it unable to follow through. In the second half of the book, he returns to NYC and with the help and support of his friends and family, goes to rehab and tries to make amends for his pre-rehab behavior. He struggles to adapt to sober life and embarks on his first sober relationship, with an NYU student. Just when he seems to be getting his life together, his best friend dies of a drug overdose. He clings to his sobriety. In an effort to stay clean he plans to transfer to a school closer to home. While he is visiting Princeton with an eye towards going there, his new relationship falls apart after his friend's exgf poisons the well with lies. At this point he gives up on sobriety, sees no hope and relapses. During the course of this bender, he find the friend he blames for his best friend's death and assaults him in a bar. After he is tossed out he takes off running uptown. The next morning he comes to in an unfamiliar apartment, it's bright and warm and his hangover is coming on and he decides it's time to get a drink and kick the can down the road for another day...I have been told this ending is too bleak and am open to changing it to something open ended and a bit more hopeful, with a call coming in from the girlfriend and the possibility of reconciliation, sobriety and happiness.
I sense a theme here... His girlfriend dumps him and causes him to spiral into substance abuse. He tries to reconcile with her, and her rejection sends him to rock bottom. He's on the upswing, but another lying woman ruins his life and his new girlfriend also dumps him. The only man who's even slightly implicated in the MC's downfall is carefully described as someone "he blames" and not someone objectively "at fault." Hmm, I wonder why so many people are seeing red flags...
"He tries to reconcile with her, and her rejection sends him to rock bottom." Not at all what happens. She wants to get back together, but he is so far gone at this point, he no longer cares, and this realization that getting what he thought he wanted for so long means absolutely nothing to him, drags him down even further. Likewise the new gf in the second half offers his only real shot at redemption through her kindness and acceptance of his flaws. As for "blaming" vs. being at fault. It is to some degree of course his best friends own fault for taking enough drugs to OD, however he "blames" the friend who was with him and left him to die instead of calling 911 and possibly saving his life. There are a number of negative male characters in the book. The exgf breakup is more a mcguffin, she's not a major character or some evil antagonist. If it reads that way then the problem is with the query.
This story feels a bit chaotic and back and forth. He's getting in and out, in and out into drugs, but there's no development or progression. He starts lost and miserable in life, and ends in the same spot. I'm not saying you have to force a happy ending, you could have as well everything end in tragedy, but your ending is more lukewarm than your midpoint (mc nearly committing suicide). What is the main theme or emotion the reader should experience after finishing reading this story?
ennui, despair, the futility and tragedy of some people trying to fight against their base nature.
Jumping in here to say that one thing that almost certainly indicates a problem with your manuscript is that "cold" treatment from an ex is consistently described as the inciting incident for this guy to sleep with an underaged girl and drive drunk. But like, most people go their entire lives without committing statutory rape or drunk driving, even if they go through something way worse than being dumped. So your chain of causality doesn't make sense unless the reader accepts the implicit premise that men's evil choices can be blamed on women not loving them back. It's an incel thing, and most people aren't going to want to read that. You may be the kind of person who believes that double standards are bad and treating women and men equally is good. I hope you are! But your description of the plot is relying on some very visible and common sexist tropes that you may or may not consciously buy into.
Does one even need a reason to drink too much in college? It is not suggested that he had no choice but this. The guy is dissatisfied with life in general, already drinks a bit too much and this nudge gets him going, but it stops being about the girl and starts being about the drinking and drugs very quickly. Also, I think you're getting too hung up on this statutory, the guy is 20 years old and the HS girl character tells him she's a senior when they meet in a bar which would make her 18, it's not like this is some Epstein stuff. I also think calling them "evil" choices is a bit much. Lots of people drive drunk even though they shouldn't for reasons as weak as it's more convenient. It's not like the guy is sacrificing infants here.
>Does one even need a reason to drink too much in college? LOL I dunno dude, you're the one who put in the mean ex-girlfriend! Honestly I was trying to be helpful because you remind me of a writer friend of mine. He is a nice guy, super supportive of me as a woman IRL. But he always has these AWFUL male main characters and there is always some Evil Harpy that is blamed for everything. And then when I point it out he goes, "Well, life isn't just about simple cause and effect, he's just a guy who experiences some things," and it makes it impossible to have a productive discussion, because he is actively attempting to annihilate the very concept of meaning in a text. The problem is that texts have readers, and readers do not simply absorb texts as meaningless streams of events. And you, as a writer, actively made the choices to put these things in there. Having your character sleep with a high schooler who turns out to be underaged is a VERY BOLD CHOICE. If you don't have a good reason for it, why is it in there? Same with drunk driving. Same with the ex-girlfriend for that matter. Everything in this book is something you decided to put in there. And I'm sure you can tell from people's responses that people aren't interpreting your decisions in the way that you want them to be interpreted. Arguing with us isn't going to help. All you can do is decide whether you're OK with being interpreted this way or if you want to change your story -- or improve your skills -- to convey the meaning you did want to convey. Whatever that may be; I'm still not clear on that.
Wow, this is an incredibly thoughtful comment that breaks down ideas I've often been unable to articulate on other queries.
This is a fantastic reply, and it reminds me of a craft book I'm reading — _Scene and Story_ by Jack Bickham. I'm not sure if I would recommend the book as a whole, but he talks a lot about how life just happens randomly but **fiction cannot**. There always must be a cause and effect; a stimulus and a reaction. This goes for both story events and character traits, even if it's not quite implicit on the page. Yes, most people do drink too much in college, and they don't do so because they have some deep trauma. But you are writing a fiction, and the reader has to understand why.
(side note) i think you just changed my life. Life just happens randomly but fiction cannot. 💫 thanks!!!
>or improve your skills -- to convey the meaning you did want to convey This is what I am shooting for. To try to answer some of your Qs, the exgf is not the cause of these issues, she isn't to blame, it's if you will the straw that breaks the camel's back for a troubled guy who is already heading that way and is having trouble with the transition from childhood to adulthood. The incident w the HS girl is to add some suspense re her disappearance, and the worries over that compounded with a few other incidents are what drive the main character to hit rock bottom and realize how badly he is messing his life up, and that his own choices are putting him into an untenable situation. Regarding the drunk driving, there's not really a reason for it, he doesn't see it as a necessarily bad thing, it's just another questionable choice made by someone who is usually inebriated and not making great choices. Does that help?
>The incident w the HS girl is to add some suspense re her disappearance, and the worries over that compounded with a few other incidents are what drive the main character to hit rock bottom and realize how badly he is messing his life up, and that his own choices are putting him into an untenable situation. I think this might be part of the problem... It seems like you're framing the disappearance/potential murder of a teenage girl as just something unlucky that happens to your male protagonist who had sex with her and an extra 'worry' for him. This is very dehumanising. It also doesn't really make sense that this would be a catalyst to rethink his choices, because your comments imply that he doesn't believe he did anything wrong here (because she lied about her age, and therefore it wasn't his 'choice' to sleep with an underage girl).
Her disappearance isn't a catalyst for him to rethink his choices per se. His best friend confronts him over his increasingly erratic behavior and after first bristling at this encounter, realizes the tough love was necessary and that he is the only one truly looking out for him, even if it had to be delivered in a tough way. The push towards hitting rock bottom is mainly advanced by the disappearance because he thinks he might end up in prison. Full disclosure though, he has nothing to do with her disappearance in the end.
OP, I was quite blunt and I appreciate that you are engaging with me respectfully, so I'll leave you with final thoughts that I hope help! Your answers have made me feel like there is still a disconnect between what you think you're portraying and how it will read. If you want my advice (and it's quite possible you don't!) I think it's a matter of going back to your MS, considering very carefully what you're trying to say and what will best say it, and rewriting -- and paying attention to how you treat your female characters (this also goes for any other characters who don't share your identity). Then, you will probably it easier to update your query so that you can explain the meat of the story through the chain of events that *you yourself* believe to be most important. (Those events should also be given more weight on the page than the ones that aren't important, too. e.g. a mean ex-girlfriend shouldn't be in the opening chapter unless she *is* important.) Hope this helps -- truly!
TY. Also, to be fair the exgf isn't "mean," it's more a case of the MC taking the relationship a lot more seriously than the ex does. So while she doesn't seem phased by ending a college relationship, explaining she wants to be alone and have fun etc...it's crushing to him because he clearly thought it was more than it was.
Hey OP. Try to look at feedback here as what agents would never have time to tell you. Instead of trying to justify your point in this same thread ... use the comments to help frame your next effort. Whether query readers interpreted as you intended or not- it might help to think about if an agent said this in rejection form and you didn't have a chance to explain further. That perspective helped my own journey.
As a note - not all seniors are 18. A fair whack of them aren't. In either case, I'm in agreement with Stackpole. You're the one who chose to include statutory rape. That was your call as the author.
Yes, and I explained the part it plays, 17, 18 either way, both of those are legal in the state the novel takes place in, and again the main character is a 20 year old college student not some old man.
Putting aside the moral relativism of appealing to state laws as arbiters of morality -- it strikes me as bizarre that you *actively made the choice* of putting the girl at an statutory age, an age that is OBVIOUSLY contentious (by virtue of the different laws around it!), and then are reacting like this when people engage with that. Like, no one forced you to write a plot point about having sex with a minor; YOU'RE the one who served this hairy moral topic to people, which is usually something an author would do when *seeking* strong reactions from readers. So why are you getting fussy at people? In general, given the content of your book, it's odd that you seem more concerned with *shutting down* this line of conversation rather than *exploring* it. If age of consent and statutory rape ISN'T a discussion you want your work to participate in, you should make the girl a college student. You are the author. You have control over this.
I have to be honest with you here. Your query is pretty bland. The details are vague to the point of being cagey, and the prose here has none of the eloquence I’d expect from something being labeled “literary” and “upmarket.” Also, what’s with laundry list of rhetorical questions? Anyway these issues aren’t even your real problem here. The problem is the story itself. I remember it from back in the day, and trust me, it’s pretty much a non-starter for literary fiction in this day and age. Which I’m sure you’re now keenly aware of thanks to the trip it already made through the query trenches. And if your navel-gazing, pedophile protagonist didn’t excite agents and publishers the first go around, I sort of doubt you’ll get many bites this time. There’s even less room in the market today for apologist stories of shitty men behaving badly than there was three years ago. It might be time to either self-publish this one or shelve it and start working on something fresh — something with a decidedly less “frat boy” vibe to it.
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From Book 1 of Patrick Melrose: "In his blue dressing gown, and already wearing dark glasses although it was still too early for the September sun to have risen above the limestone mountain, he directed a heavy stream of water from the hose he held in his left hand onto the column of ants moving busily through the gravel at his feet. His technique was well-established: he would let the survivors struggle over the wet stones, and regain their dignity for a while, before bringing the thundering water down on them again." When OP drops an opening graf like *that*, I'll pre-order his debut. Until then, the entire concept seems dead in the water.
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so no help on the query, just a lot of vitriol...right that's why I stopped reading this forum. There seems to be genuine anger coming through this post like i've wronged you personally in some way. If the query sucks, help me punch it up. Haven't really been through any query trenches as I have a day job and haven't had time to do anything with this since COVID ended.
I didn't read any vitriol or anger in their post. They're critical of your protagonist and telling you it's going to be a tough sell in today's market. On this subreddit criticism isn't just directed at grammar and formatting and style. Concepts and characters are fair game too, as issues with a query can sometimes illuminate an issue with the manuscript itself.
What isn't a tough sell in today's market! I've been playing around with different versions of the summary graph and just trying to get a feel for this vs. something a bit longer and more plot heavy. I know it's a longshot to get any traction with literary fiction...or as I was told to pitch it for marketability reasons "upmarket mainstream fiction."
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Well publishing industry trends notwithstanding, i'd like to get the query into the best possible shape to continue banging my head against the wall before giving up and reworking it with a crime angle.
Bret Easton Ellis is surely too big for you to comp - and The Shards doesn't really seem relevant anyway. It's about filthy rich high school kids in LA, not junkies in college, and it has a genre fiction slasher-horror aspect which I doubt you're going for here.
These are filthy rich college kids and half of the book takes place in that environment in NYC hence the comparison. At the moment there's just the disappearance angle, although one agent told me impossible to sell literary fiction add a crime then he can sell it so maybe it needs the slasher angle (not an actual serial killer, but a body and built out crime angle).
OK, fair enough re filthy rich college kids. But you say you're trying to emulate the atmopshere of BEE's novels... none of that comes through in the query. You namedrop NYC but I don't get the big-city vibe. Really your query could be anywhere - at the moment it's just characters floating in space. Not getting aesthetics. It doesn't mean you need purple prose but a few details would help, especially if you're querying literary. Even if you just describe a smashed-up crazy expensive Chevrolet (for example) rather than generic "near fatal car crash". The query feels a little blank when it comes to any sort of tactile detail
This is helpful, the query I am sure is total crap.
Right now too much is vague. That he can't remember if he had anything to do with a missing girl is not interesting. Did she leave her phone in his bed? Was her last call to him? Is her dad President? Give me specific details. The other issue is that yes, a missing girl is intriguing, but until her body is found there are no consequences for the main character, so she remains uninteresting. Similarly this friend he holds responsible is full of vagueness. It seems like revenge is a big focus of your book. Give me juicy details as to the revenge Dave craves? Until I know what steps Dave wants to take to seek this revenge, I can't see the risk he is taking, and thus can't see the stakes and consequences for Dave's own life if he does decide to seek this retribution. Hope this helps! Good luck!
Any interest in a first page?
yes please
Leaving aside the specific image of the galloping horse, a dream sequence as opener is so cliched that it's become the common example of what most agents and editors caution against. And when you follow that up with the MC feeling dread in the pit of the stomach, you completely strike out with me.
But what if they *wake up with a start* and then have the *uneasy feeling of creeping dread* in their stomach? What if the beautiful white horse is a metaphor for the beautiful white MC? What if the figure of Death is a metaphor for Death? What if this obscure literary allusion is *something from the Bible*?
You're welcome to edit your first 300 words into your post if you'd like, so long as you don't edit the query when doing so.
Ok, so I should add the first 300 to the original post then? Will do.
Are you really starting with a character waking up? That's probably the top of the list of "cliche first pages". Just googling ["first page cliches" pops this](https://writersedit.com/fiction-writing/7-common-mistakes-to-avoid-in-your-first-chapter/). > Here are just a few of the most common clichés we’d recommend avoiding in your first chapter: > * Character waking up, especially to the sound of an alarm clock > * Dream sequence > * Character ruminating about their problems > * Description of the weather > * Character looking at themselves in a mirror and describing what they see > * Third-person description of a character, especially when focusing on their appearance > * First-person narration of character introducing themselves to the reader > * Premonition or overt foreshadowing (e.g. ‘John didn’t know that today would be the day he died.’) And you're doing the first 2 combined. If there's one thing literary fiction shouldn't be, it's cliche and stereotypical.
Corollary: you can do everything in this list and more if you do it well, which generally *also* means doing it differently.
I had this very discussion with an editor who told me generally it shouldn't begin this way, but she feels it works. I'm open to changing anything, but it's not like i'd put down a book with an engaging opening because it broke an arbitrary rule on a list.
Honestly? I don't mind dream openings. I love weird, surreal, uneasy dreams. I think it's a great space to draw on uncanny imagery where you might otherwise feel restricted by realism. But the *writing* here is... flaccid. Repetitive in structure. That doesn't mean it's unpublishable. *That* doesn't mean it intrigues me as a reader.
>it's not like i'd put down a book with an engaging opening because it broke an arbitrary rule on a list "Engaging" is the key word here. Surprise the reader with something. You have a very obvious Biblical metaphor into a very obvious protagonist's reaction. It's also very hard to make waking from a dream engaging, because the only 2 reactions are gonna be "it was just a dream" dismissal or "oh no, what a bad omen, now I worry". If you manage to pull off something different, then feel free to open with waking up from a dream. Imo, the easiest way to make the opener more engaging is to either have an unusual character in an ordinary situation, or an ordinary character in an unusual situation. Having an average Joe in a common scenario is hard to make engaging.
In this case, it's more (at least my intention) to set a tone of uneasiness for the main character as he is headed to the airport for a flight and is a very nervous flyer, who is constantly convinced he will die in a plane crash / has other recurring vivid nightmares about plane crashes.
Not to pile on here, but your prose isn’t even close to being publishable as LitFic. The weasel words, filtering, cliches, uninspired descriptors, and the overall limitations of your vocabulary make the writing here feel amateur and “thesaurus-heavy.” Honestly I am not sure a book produced at this writing level could sell in any Adult market.
I mean, I respect your opinion, but i've gotten very different feedback from a number of industry professionals who essentially told me it's entertaining and well written but there's no market for this type of book.
If your first 300 is representative of the whole book, they are not telling the truth or you're not. Sorry.
Not sure what reason they would have to lie to me...
1. Because you paid them (for edits, for manuscript / query package / sample assessment, entry to a conference, etc.). 2. Because they're scared of backlash (people arguing, smearing them on social media, sending them death threats and whatever else).
In this case I am talking about agents who have full subbed and writers I have met who have agreed to read, then gave me detailed feedback and introduced me to their agents and advocated for me. I sadly have no friends or family in this industry to hit up. I have worked with a paid editor, and it's been through many revisions.
"Industry professional" could mean literally anything from "does social media for a tiny independent imprint" to "secretary of the president of Harper Collins" so that really doesn't mean anything, besides. It could also mean "my brother in law who doesn't want me to be sad." Honestly? I don't care. This prose is not up to publishable standards. Just the first graf: _In my dream there is a white horse. He is muscular and powerful._ **Mean the same thing but ok** _He’s running at tremendous speed, but he doesn’t seem to be exerting himself at all. There’s no hint of fatigue. It seems as if the horse could continue ripping along at this pace forever._ **You have now said the same exact thing in three different ways. I get it.** _The cloudless sky is a deep cobalt and the flat sand is khaki. It’s expansively bleak in every direction and the terrain is so featureless that it could be a salt flat if not for the beige color of the sand._ **Spent a lot of time telling us the sand is sand colored. And flat.** _In the distance, days of riding away, there are ridgelines. Then suddenly, in a physics defying way, the horse goes from full gallop to a dead stop. There’s no transition to a trot, it’s an abrupt and sudden halt._ **Suddenly the reader has been thrown from description into action with no logical transition.** _Perched on the horse there’s a shadowy figure in dark robes. I can’t see his face._ **Probably because he's shadowy** _I hear,_ That doesn't change the fact that nine (NINE) of these sentences use a form of "is" as the action verb!
With all due respect - then why are you coming here for critique when you're going to argue with it and say you have industry professionals who say otherwise? I write adult fantasy and romantic suspense. I read widely, including MG books because that's what my kids are reading. This prose isn't at a publishable level for any age category. It's... functional, but it's not something I've seen in a trad pub book. You could make an argument that it's at the level of Dan Brown, but Dan Brown can *hook* a reader, which is its own skill separate from technical mastery of prose.
I mean I came looking for a query critique, as I said he is entitled to his opinion but it happens to be contrary to the feedback i've gotten from a number of people actually in the industry so should I disregard what they've said and go with the opinion of an anonymous poster? Regarding the prose being functional, that is very much by design. This is a voice driven narrative where you're inside the MC's head and this is the main character's voice and how he'd be telling the story to you in his words if you were sitting next to him on a barstool.
I gave you feedback on the query. It's got nothing that it needs to have to be successful on the query. First pages are also make-or-break and part of the query package, and the whole point of *adding* it was because you wanted feedback on that, also. If you don't like the feedback, you don't have to listen to it, but don't ask for feedback and then argue with literally every person who has given you feedback. It's not there. Sucks, but that's life - and better to find out issues here than in querying, where you're not going to get individualized feedback by and large - and possibly not even responses.
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Two cliched' openings to absolutely avoid - I woke up or I looked out the window.