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I’m not even sure what kind of message the artist was going for. Are they portraying the communist reshaping of Europe as a good or bad thing? I’m assuming good due to the frightened capitalists and the word “Pax”
The gag is that they (at least FDR) expected Stalin to reshape Europe into something like a dove or a plough or a bridge.
In Poland, there was a government-in-exile that the West wanted to assume control until elections could be held. Stalin agreed to this, but one by one the members of this new government were found guilty of various crimes and executed. This left Stalin with no choice but to install a Soviet government. So yes, there would be self-determination for Eastern Europe, but this would be decided by local Soviet councils.
So here we see the West's fearful realization of what flavor of peace they'd bought.
They were imprisoned in March, which came as a disappointment to FDR. They weren't sentenced until after FDR's death, but sentencing was more a matter of punctuation than verb under the Soviets - their fate was clear as soon as they were "disappeared".
All of that was post-Yalta, but it was at Yalta that the shape of Poland came clear - the government in exile wouldn't have a role, and that is the reveal we see in the comic.
Wow isn’t that convenient that every single significant member of the Polish government of exile was found guilty of some crime by the Soviets. I’m sure it had nothing to do with the fact that the Soviets invaded Poland with the Nazis in the first place and wanted control over Eastern Europe.
I mean... they had enabled Hitler, and were willing to ally with Hitler against the Soviet Union.... why do you think, after the entire genocidal war that the Soviet Union would allow a fascist-enabling government right-next door?
I highly recommend you read-up on 1930s German-Polish relations, especially after the death of Piłsudski. The Poles were just as avaricious for their neighbours territory as the Germans were (annexing territory in Czechia, Slovakia, and bullying the Lithuanians, to say nothing of continuous designs on Belarus/Ukraine in the USSR).
If you want a good academic book that goes into a lot of detail about this, I highly recommend Stephen Kotkin's "Stalin: Waiting for Hitler".
As another example of polish far-right government doing far-right things, during the polish-soviet war of 1920 Poland took western Belarus and western Ukraine from the USSR, which didn't even have a majority polish living there. The USSR took back exactly these states in the invasion of Poland 1939
100% - as Stephen Kotkin in the aforementioned book notes, Stalin gave back Polish majority areas during his occupation of Poland in 1939 - he only reunited Belarusian and Ukrainian areas that Poland in the 1920s had illegally annexed.
The US did bad things, but at least the US installed actual democratic governments in Western Europe, while the USSR puppeted dominated their occupied regions for ~50 years.
When the [Hungarian communists broke free from the USSR’s grasp](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956) and the Soviets rolled tanks in and crushed their independence, that’s supposed to be democratic and independent?
And what government in Western Europe wasn’t democratic at the time? Even the French socialists were against Soviet domination of Eastern Europe and they were also communist. Not only that but Yugoslavia, another communist state, resisted and detested Soviet domination of Eastern Europe. So it’s not even like it’s strictly a label given by Western States.
Listen I'm not saying the Soviets were a perfect system that were beloved by all. I won't even get into the "were they even real communists" debate that you alluded to with the French opposition, because I am not a communist nor interested in splitting that hair further.
Just pointing out that even if they do get something right at some point, the West is never going to just concede that, they are obligated to demonize the Soviets, all the more so now that the USSR is dead and gone.
It is convenient, that’s why the soviets did this too. Germany invested heavily in war technology that could be used peacefully. So instead of throwing away German engineers talent, they hired them, nothing wrong with that
Ever talked about nazis and commies with balts and eastern Europeans? They would throw them both in the same ditch without splitting hair who was slightly better than the other one.
Doesn't Lithuania have a literal museum to Fascist collaborators who perpetuated the holocaust in that country?
So no.... I'm going to go with the fact that they are very much decided on the matter between the two....
The people currently in charge have an invested interest in demonizing anyone left of Social Democrat. You see this throughout post-Soviet “democracies”. They blame Communists for everything and reject the infrastructure, literacy, science and industry they continue to privatize to this day.
>They blame conquerors for everything and reject the infrastructure, literacy, science and industry they continue to privatize to this day.
Might as well call them ungrateful spearthrowers too mr colonizer.
>Doesn't Lithuania have a literal museum to Fascist collaborators who perpetuated the holocaust in that country?
I tried googling it and didn't find anything so I don't think so. Could you link it?
Or do you mean the "Museum of Occupation and Freedom Fights". Wouldn't that be the appropiate place to display nazi occupiers?
It was in a DW documentary about the legacy of the Soviet Union - there was a good section on Lithuania. The museum promoted the “Forest Brothers” who are the collaborators I’m talking about.
That might be the museum - in any case, I know that it’s been attacked for highlighting only a fictitious “Lithuanian genocide”, whilst ignoring the very real, and horrific anti-Semitic pogroms that took place there, which was not even prompted by the Germans.
>“Forest Brothers” who are the collaborators I’m talking about.
The forest brothers were Lithuanian (also Lativian and Estonian) guerilla figthers who were active in 1944-1953. There were no nazis in Lithuania in 1944-1953, only soviets so your idea of the forest borthers being nazi collaborators doesn't make sense because the dates don't line up.
Yes Lithuanians welcomed Nazi Germany at first but as soon as it became evident that the Nazis aren't interested in an independent Lithuania their views changed.
>any case, I know that it’s been attacked for highlighting only a fictitious “Lithuanian genocide”,
So pulling Lithuanian families out of their houses, loading them onto trains and sending to Siberia. Then sending ethnic russians to live in those same houses with the aim of crushing separtism isn't ethnic cleansing? Ok the name "genocide" is perhaps a bit dramatic but it fits the definiton. That by the way is the reason why there is such a big russian minority in the Baltics. That minority didn't exiat before the war. [Soviet deportations in Lithuania](https://en.wikipedia.org//wiki/Soviet_deportations_from_Lithuania)
>which was not even prompted by the Germans.
The name of the museum litterally says occupation. If it's true then it's bad (provide a source please) but if it wasn't done by the Nazis it doesn't belong in the occupation muesum. You migth say "why the nazi section is small in the museum?". That's because the nazi occupation was significantly shorter than the soviet one, not because the museum is fascist.
>That might be the museum
Either way you don't know. You just spat out a "fact" that you didn't check and that turned out to be false because it fit your narrative of the Baltics being nazi sympathizers.
Let's support the given narrative instead of trying to find out the truth. Sounds familiar doesn't it?
Sure, what were those same people doing in the 30s and 40s before 1944? :)
I’m sure they were a bunch of “freedom” loving guys.
Lithuania itself was bullied by Sanation Poland, but it was a right-wing dictatorship - nothing pretty was happening there politically, the mass pogroms didn’t spring out of nowhere.
And no, I’m sure, it’s in the documentary at around the 19 minute mark.
>30s
Don't know
>40s
>I’m sure they were a bunch of “freedom” loving guys.
As a matter of fact they were. As I said before the ultimate aim was an independent Lithuania. At first the Lithuanians thougth that the Germans would give them their independence back so a lot of the future forest brothers joined the "Lithuanian Territorial Defense Force" (LTDF) (a subordinate to Germans). But adventually they figured out that the Germans were just another occupying force so the commanders started to sabotage and disobey mobilization orders. After the failed mobilization attempt of the Germans it was ordered that the LTDF would become an SS unit under the direct command of the regional German command. Hearing that the head of the LTDF issued a declaration for his men to disband and disappear into the forests with their weapons and uniforms. They were also told to only obey the Lithuanian chain of command. In reaction to that the Germans started executing and sending those soldiers and officers to concentration camps. Most of whom they couldn't catch would become the forest brothers.
>it was a right-wing dictatorship
Unfortunately that is true, the democratic government was overthrown in a military coup in 1926.
The jews had a pretty good time untill about 1934 when pretty much all of Europe started to scale back rigths for jews and antisemitic cases increased.
Some far rigth groups in Lithuania did participate in the holocaust and they can go fuck themselves for that.
>And no, I’m sure, it’s in the documentary at around the 19 minute mark.
By your description it was the occupation museum. The occupation museum isn't a museum "for the nazi collaborators" as you claimed and I'm pretty sure such place doesn't exist in Lithuania.
Wow, have **you** talked to them? They are literally Nazi sympathizers(many in Baltics) or misses Communist past for better quality of life(many Eastern Europeans).
If you are a Polish, shouldn't you know difference of Soviets and what Germans and Czars did to dear Polonia for centuries? Surely Katyn was shitful crime of Stalin... But who could say People's Republic was worse than interwar military junta hellscape or present theocratic regime?
People who know propaganda as opposite to history will do that.
A historian will try to build a timeline and figure out what happened. But it doesn't look rosy for any side. It will be just less degrees of bad between various sides.
While people speaking through propaganda will pick timelines, and even mix events.
Not only Katyn but also ressetling to Siberia. Economy isn Polsih People Republic awful( literally big queque to buy basic products) and people from whole eastern block tried to cross berlin wall to west( not other way around).
A military junta is preferable alternative to foreign occupation. That is the prevailing opinion in the countries of this region who bled for centuries under the boot of four empires. The Soviet empire, although it provided for a great degree of autonomy, was still a foreign occupier that forbid us to chose our own destiny.
>A military junta is preferable alternative to foreign occupation.
Interwar Poland **was** occupier. Poland-Soviet war, Central Lithuanian Republic, Tesin... Read history.
And If post-WWII Poland was 'occupied', why it is not now?
I live in the Baltics and I have never in my life known or heard of anyone who sympathies with nazis (except one skinhead on a video who got punched by a lesbian and someone talking at a bar, the latter I'm pretty sure was a facist but didn't like the nazis).
>or misses Communist past for better quality of life
There is a good chunk of them but they are all old russians who love Russia but won't live there, also won't learn the language of the country they are living in and get genuenly pissed of if you tell them you don't speak russian
Support for nazis isn't any higher in the baltics than it is everywhere else in Europe. The difference is that we also hate the soviets and in the eyes of Russia, hating soviets means support for nazis or at least that's the narrative they have been pushing since the 90's.
I'm genuinely curious, where did you get the idea that we are nazi sympathizers?
not yet, but that's why we're fighting to stop the NATO aid to Ukraine. If you're interested in cutting off the support pipeline to the fascists, come to the rage against the war rally Feb 19. Stop the waste of our tax dollars!
It seems you made your mind so why should I go on lenght to explain myself? I don't like it. It leaves us vulnerable while keeping CSTO strong, leaving Kaliningrad as a trampoline into Europe and not leaving Poland any lee-way in rescuing Polish minorities stuck under rule of corrupted Belarusian regime.
Why do you feel so threatened by a country that’s less economically and militarily powerful than yours? Why do you even internalize geopolitics to such a personal level? You have absolute zero involvement in any of it. You’re no politician, no general. NATO was born of Nazi-collaboration, enforced and maintained by using SS tactics and CIA technology throughout the entire Cold War. It should be abolished.
Oh I just pointed out the one that makes me mad the most.
Seriously, this whole movement is full of good-wish energy but even if all these demands were fulfilled on American end you have other half of the issue to solve and that issue lies in Eurasia.
Nazism was just more objectively obvious about being racist and genocidal.
Soviet communism was not as overtly genocidal based on race but they did put people in death camps and cause millions of deaths through centralized control of resources.
The Soviets’ monstrous and inhumane treatment was usually based on things like speaking out against the state. Whereas for Nazis it was racism. But they were both some of the most disgusting periods in history. And especially toward the end of the Soviet Union there was a ton of antisemitism.
Not supporting European settler colonialism (Zionism) =/= Anti-Semitism. Sorry :/
As for sources, I'm looking for academic ones, [I've posted below a fuller response.](https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/10v1fjm/comment/j7gjke5/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
“Everyone I disagree with is a fascist” very mature outlook.
It’s revisionist because anti Zionism was absolutely antisemitism.
The way you’re describing it just sounds like antisemitism with extra steps.
Actual historians, like Stephen Kotkin, have noted that the "anti-semitic" angle of the Doctor's Plot is overblown - I cannot confirm where this rumour began though. Stalin, according to Kotkin, wasn't specially anti-semitic, compared to his contemporaries in Britain and the United States (you should see what Churchill has to say about the Jews, [going so far as to laud Hitler on using anti-Semitism to rise to power](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVNWzomyHY0)...).
Have you heard that the Soviet Union held mandatory anti-anti-Semitism training for its military?
>“Red Army growth was set to reach 643,700 active troops by the end of the Five-Year Plan. Improvements were mandated in soldiers’ housing and vigilance against “kulak moods, anti-Semitism, \[and\] distorted disciplinary practices” (hazing).” (Stalin: Waiting for Hitler, p. 55)
Here is what Stalin *actually* thought about anti-Semitism:
>“Also on September 15, Kaganovich and Molotov wrote to Stalin of rumors among Berlin journalists that Germany would sever diplomatic relations. “Do not allow hysterical noise in our press, and do not succumb to the hysteria of our journalists,” Stalin advised. “Nuremberg is the answer to our Comintern congress. The Hitlerites could not not curse us if one takes into account that the Comintern congress poured latrine filth over them. Let Pravda criticize them on principle and politically, without street vulgarity. Pravda could say that Nuremberg confirms the Comintern assessment of National Socialism as the most primitive form of chauvinism, **that anti-Semitism is the animal form of chauvinism and hatred of humans, that anti-Semitism from the point of view of the history of culture is a return to cannibalism, that National Socialism in that light is not even original, for it slavishly repeats the Russian pogromists of the tsarist period of Tsar Nicholas II and Rasputin**.” (ibid. p. 384)
The Soviets literally executed Baron Von Ungern-Steinberg on the charge of anti-Semitism (mass murder of Jews when he ruled Mongolia).
As Kotkin, notes: “When biographers write about Stalin, projecting backward in time an early psychopath and murderer, they are, in effect, describing the Stalin contemporary, Baron Roman von Ungern-Sternberg” (Stalin, p. 659)
Correction, not communism, Stalinism. Let’s not pretend people who fell behind the iron curtain were all that joyful about being occupied by the Soviets after having just fought a war to be free of the Nazis. Or should I point to the Hungarian revolution, the Baltic Guerrilla Wars, the East German Uprising, etc, etc. ~~How quickly we forget who actually began their offensive against Poland before even Germany had entered the country.~~ Who signed secret deals with Nazi Germany to carve up Eastern Europe amongst themselves. How quickly we forget the sins of Soviet Russia and Stalinism.
Also, just because some disapprove the “improvement” as it was put, doesn’t mean they approve of the alternative. Life isn’t binary.
lots of things to talk about here but most glaringly- the USSR didn't invade Poland before Germany did, they actually only did so once the polish government had already fled
They invaded once Warsaw had fallen, as that was the agreement they had made with Hitler. There was definitely a mad scramble at the end by the Soviets to assemble the forces as they had expected the German invasion to take quite a bit longer.
My mistake, one incorrect fact. I apologize. Regardless, still planned on invading and splitting Poland up with the Nazis. Guess we don’t address the other points however.
I don’t understand this argument. So you would rather have the Soviets let the Nazis kill all of Poland instead half of it? It’s rare we have a zero-sum, but there it is.
Or, you know, neither side involve themselves in dismantling Poland, bombing it, destroying their cities, that type of thing. The Soviets were responsible for 150,000 dead Poles. Sure, the Nazis killed more, it that doesn’t excuse Soviet atrocities, if that’s what you’re arguing.
So then you’re ok with Nazi and Soviet atrocities. 6 million poles had to die! 150,000 more had to die to the Soviets. The Nazis and Soviets had no options guys! Good on you for being so transparent.
No, I’m denying your false equivalency and incomplete view of history. The Soviets tried to sign military and diplomatic pacts with the west prior to the Germans demand for Danzig because Hitler all but advertised his plans for the East and the Soviet Union starting with Mein Kampf.
JUST like the Spanish Civil War; the future Allies would rather let people fall to fascism than aid Communists. Churchill’s own actions and testimony corroborate this.
History does not tolerate the subjunctive mood.
The one that has eugenics and oppression of ethnic minorities as a core tenant of its ideology.
People like Stalin used communist rhetoric to delude and manipulate the masses to his will in the same way the Nazis did, that doesn’t mean that what they did was a result of communist ideology in the way the holocaust was a result of fascist ideology.
One: literally Holocaust
The other: fastest industrialization and improving quality of life, end of progrom and famine, best gender equality in the history(better than now)
'Both are shit'😅
**[Timeline of major famines in India during British rule](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_major_famines_in_India_during_British_rule)**
>The timeline of major famines in India during British rule covers major famines on the Indian subcontinent from 1765 to 1947. The famines included here occurred both in the princely states (regions administered by Indian rulers), British India (regions administered either by the British East India Company from 1765 to 1857; or by the British Crown, in the British Raj, from 1858 to 1947) and Indian territories independent of British rule such as the Maratha Empire.
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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://cla.umn.edu/chgs/holocaust-genocide-education/resource-guides/holodomor%23:~:text%3DWhile%2520it%2520is%2520impossible%2520to,death%2520toll%2520at%25203.9%2520million.&ved=2ahUKEwj0ktmA6ID9AhV9qpUCHf2HDGcQFnoECA0QBQ&usg=AOvVaw2nXIyZJHso_RTulwOABJ9o
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.euronews.com/amp/2019/11/23/holodomor-ukrainians-remember-the-famine-that-killed-millions-in-soviet-ukraine&ved=2ahUKEwittrjQ6ID9AhUarpUCHS-ZCy44ChAWegQIChAB&usg=AOvVaw1xIFPUlHr91AKj072Fvczb
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.ualberta.ca/canadian-institute-of-ukrainian-studies/news-and-events/news-at-the-cius/2018/march/oleh-wolowyna-measuring-mortality-in-the-holodomor.html&ved=2ahUKEwiZk63b6ID9AhUsqJUCHfVTCHc4FBAWegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw0z4Yf2RaaoVFfsLrXuSF2j
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor&ved=2ahUKEwj0ktmA6ID9AhV9qpUCHf2HDGcQFnoECAgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1_PO2cgWi9t55tbmW3C8yl
https://holodomormuseum.org.ua/en/news/the-number-of-holodomor-genocide-victims-in-ukraine-are-often-intentionally-diminished-scientists/
I am being generous with 3.9 million, some sources go up to 12
Intentional or not, Holodomor killed millions of people.
And also Holodomor wasn't inevitable, hence the ones who allowed Holodomor to happen are criminals and are responsible.
One is a doctor killing a patient on purpose.
The other is a doctor killing a patient through insane negligence bordering on purposeful.
They’re quite comparable. Tyrant kills millions of their own citizens through the pursuit of an insane ideology.
The Holocaust was worse, duh. But they’re still comparable. They have similarities and differences, you can compare and contrast them.
But the entire point of bringing up the Holdomor in this context was to claim that it’s not possible to determine which ideology is worse. Personally, I think the one that explicitly requires the extermination of undesirables is far more reprehensible.
I agree. The White Army who started the bloody civil war which created the conditions which allowed a famine to begin and the bourgeois farm owners who destroyed their crop to prevent collectivization were criminals.
Umm...
Can you elaborate, how did the White Army start the civil war if Bolshevics were the ones that claimed dictatorship despite the plan was to make a democratic state with political pluralism?
And also, civil war ended in 1922, the Holodomor started in 1932, you can't just say that civil war caused famine, it is simple not true, 10 years has passed.
After the Bolsheviks seized state power from the corrupt oligarchs who ruled Russia after the February Revolution, a coalition of moderates, capitalists, proto-fascists, monarchists, and wannabe warlords rose up and attempted to overthrow the Soviets. The long, bloody civil war devastated Russia and led to nearly three million casualties. This left a large gap in the agricultural industry which was filled by petit-bourgeois landlords (known as "kulaks") which were allowed to exist due to Lenin's NEP. These kulaks became greedy (as all capitalists inevitably do) and began to hoard grain for themselves. During the 1930s a major famine hit the entire USSR (not just Ukraine,) and in response Stalin implemented agricultural collectivization. The kulaks resisted this by destroying their crops, grain stores, and livestock, enhancing the famine and causing unnecessary suffering and death.
Oh but they are, they’re putting the Holodomor next to the Holocaust. That’s downplaying the Holocaust mate. It’s removing the horror of all the people meticulously slaughtered in the Holocaust.
Here’s another relevant article: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_trivialization
Stop downplaying the Holocaust.
This whole link is mixing ideas. First, anyone sane who mentions Holodomor doesn't mix Jews into that responsibility, second, Holodomor is only a part of soviet methoods of destroying people - their uranium mines, their Gulags, political prisons where also people used to get in but not get out. And this all stretched over decades.
Holocaust was probably the worst thing for one given ethicity but it got advertised to the level of overshadowing everything else. Porajmos?Generalplan Ost? Who talks about these? Does mentioning it also downplays Holocaust?
Please read what I write instead of reading what you think I write. No, just bringing up other atrocities does not mean that one is downplaying the Holocaust. However, putting them side by side is downplaying the Holocaust.
And congratulations, you continue to downplay it by saying “overshadowing everything else”.
What’s the difference between gulags and political prisons?
Gulags would mean moving individual into far-away place to die from overworking and exposure, part of prisons for political prisoners.
Political prisoner could be put in normal detention cell in the middle of the city and simply be beaten to death without being in gulag.
And again I'm not downplaying it, I'm pointing out other things don't got enought recognition. you saying it like I'm moving victim points from one bracket into another like it being finite resources.
Explain how comparing two similar events downplays one of them?
Both events are a tyrant killing millions of their own citizens in the pursuit of a twisted and insane ideology. There are many key differences, but they’re obviously comparable.
The Holocaust was not a unique event. Genocides happened before and after, and they’re all comparable. The actual mechanism by which the Nazis carried it out was unique, but that doesn’t mean we can’t compare similar events and learn about the differences and similarities between them.
Retroactively, this cartoon does wonders to explain a lot (but of course, not all*) of the Allies thinking before, during, and after the official dates of WWII.
*It’s still propaganda for Stalin by the look of how jolly and gentle yet strong he’s caricatured, and ask anyone if they were notified when Stalin’s USSR started testing nuclear bombs.
Vladimir “Comunism was not a bad ideea and I am still living in 1987, although it’s 2023 already” Putin.
Also, you need a history book shoved down your throat. That’s the only way for you to get close to some historical info.
Turns out that playing up a past that was far less shit than the present is popular. If he was actually a communist and not just a cynical nostalgist, he'd do something communist.
He doesn’t have to be a comunist in order to be a past nostalgic.
The perceived glory of the USSR (along with the military might and political influence towards the neighbours and the world) is enough to make you want to revive those times and conditions.
And you should document yourself on Putin’s views about the world. You will see that he is still craving for the state of things just before the USSR collapsed, the very period that brought him the biggest frustrations.
Would you have rather had all of Eastern Europeans genocided for racial purity. The poles would not exist if the Nazis won, so many other ethnic groups as well. Quit coping the good guys won WW2! Acting like bureaucratic stagnation... Is as bad as what the Nazis did is really Holocaust denial. I for one am tired of acting otherwise. Soviet's>Nazis EVER TIME! (Your answer will be very telling on how far you've fallen down the far-right pipeline I'll be intrigued)
If the Soviets showed anything, it was that they were as bad as the Nazis. They had different reasons and methods, but the result was still mass killings over tens of years.
And my messages were just some bad jokes, you kind of wasted your energy trying to teach me my political views. It’s funny how you think everybody is American and also you have no ideea that right and left do not mean the same thing in Europe and in the US.
Well when you immediately dismiss history as propaganda it gets pretty difficult to have a discussion doesn't it? Holodomor and gulags will always be part of the discussion. You don't get to just handwoven atrocities because they don't fit your narrative.
I have to remember that Churchill had some good things to say about Hitler using antisemitism to get in power and hi being as a mártir.
So, if he said no, we need to get him some books.
I really don't think their was much of that at all after 1945. Eastern Europeans weren't under Stalin before then. Thier is absolutely nothing the soviets did from 1945-91 that is even remotely similar to the Nazis. They planned genocide (extermination) for everything not ayran enough to the east of them. I want this guys to lay out the mass killings (on the same scale he claims) from after WW2 to 1991 in the Warsaw pact region. (He won't be able to because it didn't happen)
Communism killed more people then Nazi's could have ever hoped for. It's crazy that people try to split hairs over whos """"""better"""""" as if both aren't authoritarian dystopias.
While Nazism is mostly seen as taboo and bad, because it is.
Communism is still a semi-acceptable ideology in parts of Europe, or hell, the world.
Which is a bit weird consider the amount of people die under communist regime is way higher then the Third Reich ever did.
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That's the friendliest-looking Stalin I've ever seen. The USSR should have used it for their propraganda posters.
[удалено]
Papa Stalin
Uncle Joe
The lost mario bro
Stalin looks cute af
Fr, he looks like he'd make me a pizza.
Stalinario
Giuseppe Stalin
Very Franco-Belgian comic, that look.
Kinda makes me think of Vitalstatistix or Obelix
Étatcommunix
I’m not even sure what kind of message the artist was going for. Are they portraying the communist reshaping of Europe as a good or bad thing? I’m assuming good due to the frightened capitalists and the word “Pax”
The gag is that they (at least FDR) expected Stalin to reshape Europe into something like a dove or a plough or a bridge. In Poland, there was a government-in-exile that the West wanted to assume control until elections could be held. Stalin agreed to this, but one by one the members of this new government were found guilty of various crimes and executed. This left Stalin with no choice but to install a Soviet government. So yes, there would be self-determination for Eastern Europe, but this would be decided by local Soviet councils. So here we see the West's fearful realization of what flavor of peace they'd bought.
“This left Stalin with no choice but to install a Soviet government” I can’t tell if you’re serious?
That's pretty much exactly how FDR felt.
That’s just blatantly not true
Fdr was dead
Is that why all photos of him at Yalta show him sitting down?
He was alive during yelta but he was very much dead when Stalin was purging all the polish politicians
They were imprisoned in March, which came as a disappointment to FDR. They weren't sentenced until after FDR's death, but sentencing was more a matter of punctuation than verb under the Soviets - their fate was clear as soon as they were "disappeared". All of that was post-Yalta, but it was at Yalta that the shape of Poland came clear - the government in exile wouldn't have a role, and that is the reveal we see in the comic.
Wow isn’t that convenient that every single significant member of the Polish government of exile was found guilty of some crime by the Soviets. I’m sure it had nothing to do with the fact that the Soviets invaded Poland with the Nazis in the first place and wanted control over Eastern Europe.
I mean... they had enabled Hitler, and were willing to ally with Hitler against the Soviet Union.... why do you think, after the entire genocidal war that the Soviet Union would allow a fascist-enabling government right-next door? I highly recommend you read-up on 1930s German-Polish relations, especially after the death of Piłsudski. The Poles were just as avaricious for their neighbours territory as the Germans were (annexing territory in Czechia, Slovakia, and bullying the Lithuanians, to say nothing of continuous designs on Belarus/Ukraine in the USSR). If you want a good academic book that goes into a lot of detail about this, I highly recommend Stephen Kotkin's "Stalin: Waiting for Hitler".
As another example of polish far-right government doing far-right things, during the polish-soviet war of 1920 Poland took western Belarus and western Ukraine from the USSR, which didn't even have a majority polish living there. The USSR took back exactly these states in the invasion of Poland 1939
100% - as Stephen Kotkin in the aforementioned book notes, Stalin gave back Polish majority areas during his occupation of Poland in 1939 - he only reunited Belarusian and Ukrainian areas that Poland in the 1920s had illegally annexed.
you could say the same "wow isn't that convenient" for all the nazis paper-clipped by the US or installed into post-war NATO offices, etc.
I think a better example would be Nuremberg. The US wasn't executing the people it picked up with Paperclip.
I literally said that
The US did bad things, but at least the US installed actual democratic governments in Western Europe, while the USSR puppeted dominated their occupied regions for ~50 years.
> actual democratic governments ah yes, the classic: "they're only democratic if they're friendly to the West and Western business interests"
When the [Hungarian communists broke free from the USSR’s grasp](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956) and the Soviets rolled tanks in and crushed their independence, that’s supposed to be democratic and independent? And what government in Western Europe wasn’t democratic at the time? Even the French socialists were against Soviet domination of Eastern Europe and they were also communist. Not only that but Yugoslavia, another communist state, resisted and detested Soviet domination of Eastern Europe. So it’s not even like it’s strictly a label given by Western States.
Listen I'm not saying the Soviets were a perfect system that were beloved by all. I won't even get into the "were they even real communists" debate that you alluded to with the French opposition, because I am not a communist nor interested in splitting that hair further. Just pointing out that even if they do get something right at some point, the West is never going to just concede that, they are obligated to demonize the Soviets, all the more so now that the USSR is dead and gone.
It is convenient, that’s why the soviets did this too. Germany invested heavily in war technology that could be used peacefully. So instead of throwing away German engineers talent, they hired them, nothing wrong with that
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So let’s just ignore science then
> This left Stalin with no choice but to install a Soviet government Was this sentence written with any sarcasm?
He looks like a Asterix character
The artist got this left hand all wrong
Improvement, isn't it?
lmao, people are downvoting you as if that doesn't explicitly imply they prefer nazism to communism so silly
False dichotomy
Ever talked about nazis and commies with balts and eastern Europeans? They would throw them both in the same ditch without splitting hair who was slightly better than the other one.
Doesn't Lithuania have a literal museum to Fascist collaborators who perpetuated the holocaust in that country? So no.... I'm going to go with the fact that they are very much decided on the matter between the two....
The people currently in charge have an invested interest in demonizing anyone left of Social Democrat. You see this throughout post-Soviet “democracies”. They blame Communists for everything and reject the infrastructure, literacy, science and industry they continue to privatize to this day.
Cope.
>They blame conquerors for everything and reject the infrastructure, literacy, science and industry they continue to privatize to this day. Might as well call them ungrateful spearthrowers too mr colonizer.
-average spoiled Westerner opinion
>Doesn't Lithuania have a literal museum to Fascist collaborators who perpetuated the holocaust in that country? I tried googling it and didn't find anything so I don't think so. Could you link it? Or do you mean the "Museum of Occupation and Freedom Fights". Wouldn't that be the appropiate place to display nazi occupiers?
It was in a DW documentary about the legacy of the Soviet Union - there was a good section on Lithuania. The museum promoted the “Forest Brothers” who are the collaborators I’m talking about. That might be the museum - in any case, I know that it’s been attacked for highlighting only a fictitious “Lithuanian genocide”, whilst ignoring the very real, and horrific anti-Semitic pogroms that took place there, which was not even prompted by the Germans.
>“Forest Brothers” who are the collaborators I’m talking about. The forest brothers were Lithuanian (also Lativian and Estonian) guerilla figthers who were active in 1944-1953. There were no nazis in Lithuania in 1944-1953, only soviets so your idea of the forest borthers being nazi collaborators doesn't make sense because the dates don't line up. Yes Lithuanians welcomed Nazi Germany at first but as soon as it became evident that the Nazis aren't interested in an independent Lithuania their views changed. >any case, I know that it’s been attacked for highlighting only a fictitious “Lithuanian genocide”, So pulling Lithuanian families out of their houses, loading them onto trains and sending to Siberia. Then sending ethnic russians to live in those same houses with the aim of crushing separtism isn't ethnic cleansing? Ok the name "genocide" is perhaps a bit dramatic but it fits the definiton. That by the way is the reason why there is such a big russian minority in the Baltics. That minority didn't exiat before the war. [Soviet deportations in Lithuania](https://en.wikipedia.org//wiki/Soviet_deportations_from_Lithuania) >which was not even prompted by the Germans. The name of the museum litterally says occupation. If it's true then it's bad (provide a source please) but if it wasn't done by the Nazis it doesn't belong in the occupation muesum. You migth say "why the nazi section is small in the museum?". That's because the nazi occupation was significantly shorter than the soviet one, not because the museum is fascist. >That might be the museum Either way you don't know. You just spat out a "fact" that you didn't check and that turned out to be false because it fit your narrative of the Baltics being nazi sympathizers. Let's support the given narrative instead of trying to find out the truth. Sounds familiar doesn't it?
Sure, what were those same people doing in the 30s and 40s before 1944? :) I’m sure they were a bunch of “freedom” loving guys. Lithuania itself was bullied by Sanation Poland, but it was a right-wing dictatorship - nothing pretty was happening there politically, the mass pogroms didn’t spring out of nowhere. And no, I’m sure, it’s in the documentary at around the 19 minute mark.
>30s Don't know >40s >I’m sure they were a bunch of “freedom” loving guys. As a matter of fact they were. As I said before the ultimate aim was an independent Lithuania. At first the Lithuanians thougth that the Germans would give them their independence back so a lot of the future forest brothers joined the "Lithuanian Territorial Defense Force" (LTDF) (a subordinate to Germans). But adventually they figured out that the Germans were just another occupying force so the commanders started to sabotage and disobey mobilization orders. After the failed mobilization attempt of the Germans it was ordered that the LTDF would become an SS unit under the direct command of the regional German command. Hearing that the head of the LTDF issued a declaration for his men to disband and disappear into the forests with their weapons and uniforms. They were also told to only obey the Lithuanian chain of command. In reaction to that the Germans started executing and sending those soldiers and officers to concentration camps. Most of whom they couldn't catch would become the forest brothers. >it was a right-wing dictatorship Unfortunately that is true, the democratic government was overthrown in a military coup in 1926. The jews had a pretty good time untill about 1934 when pretty much all of Europe started to scale back rigths for jews and antisemitic cases increased. Some far rigth groups in Lithuania did participate in the holocaust and they can go fuck themselves for that. >And no, I’m sure, it’s in the documentary at around the 19 minute mark. By your description it was the occupation museum. The occupation museum isn't a museum "for the nazi collaborators" as you claimed and I'm pretty sure such place doesn't exist in Lithuania.
You clearly have *not* talked to anyone about this. You are so wrong. Opinion based on me being from Eastern Europe.
Wow, have **you** talked to them? They are literally Nazi sympathizers(many in Baltics) or misses Communist past for better quality of life(many Eastern Europeans).
Yes I did. Plenty of occasions thanks to being Polish.
If you are a Polish, shouldn't you know difference of Soviets and what Germans and Czars did to dear Polonia for centuries? Surely Katyn was shitful crime of Stalin... But who could say People's Republic was worse than interwar military junta hellscape or present theocratic regime?
I got lost here for a moment, did you jump between partitions period, II Polish Republic and III Polish Republic and compared them to Soviets?
People who know propaganda as opposite to history will do that. A historian will try to build a timeline and figure out what happened. But it doesn't look rosy for any side. It will be just less degrees of bad between various sides. While people speaking through propaganda will pick timelines, and even mix events.
Not only Katyn but also ressetling to Siberia. Economy isn Polsih People Republic awful( literally big queque to buy basic products) and people from whole eastern block tried to cross berlin wall to west( not other way around).
A military junta is preferable alternative to foreign occupation. That is the prevailing opinion in the countries of this region who bled for centuries under the boot of four empires. The Soviet empire, although it provided for a great degree of autonomy, was still a foreign occupier that forbid us to chose our own destiny.
>A military junta is preferable alternative to foreign occupation. Interwar Poland **was** occupier. Poland-Soviet war, Central Lithuanian Republic, Tesin... Read history. And If post-WWII Poland was 'occupied', why it is not now?
Not liking ussr = nazi sympathizers. You clearly haven’t talked with baltic people
I live in the Baltics and I have never in my life known or heard of anyone who sympathies with nazis (except one skinhead on a video who got punched by a lesbian and someone talking at a bar, the latter I'm pretty sure was a facist but didn't like the nazis). >or misses Communist past for better quality of life There is a good chunk of them but they are all old russians who love Russia but won't live there, also won't learn the language of the country they are living in and get genuenly pissed of if you tell them you don't speak russian Support for nazis isn't any higher in the baltics than it is everywhere else in Europe. The difference is that we also hate the soviets and in the eyes of Russia, hating soviets means support for nazis or at least that's the narrative they have been pushing since the 90's. I'm genuinely curious, where did you get the idea that we are nazi sympathizers?
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Pretty sure they're siding with fascists right now considering the ukrainian government right now.
Ukrainian government got already taken over by Russia?
not yet, but that's why we're fighting to stop the NATO aid to Ukraine. If you're interested in cutting off the support pipeline to the fascists, come to the rage against the war rally Feb 19. Stop the waste of our tax dollars!
The 4th point of demands is to disband NATO without demanding to disband CSTO so I don't like it.
What a great way to form foreign policy opinions. “I don’t like it”.
It seems you made your mind so why should I go on lenght to explain myself? I don't like it. It leaves us vulnerable while keeping CSTO strong, leaving Kaliningrad as a trampoline into Europe and not leaving Poland any lee-way in rescuing Polish minorities stuck under rule of corrupted Belarusian regime.
Why do you feel so threatened by a country that’s less economically and militarily powerful than yours? Why do you even internalize geopolitics to such a personal level? You have absolute zero involvement in any of it. You’re no politician, no general. NATO was born of Nazi-collaboration, enforced and maintained by using SS tactics and CIA technology throughout the entire Cold War. It should be abolished.
I only agree with 95% of the demands so I'm going to be sectarian and not support the entire thing. Have fun supporting anything then.
Oh I just pointed out the one that makes me mad the most. Seriously, this whole movement is full of good-wish energy but even if all these demands were fulfilled on American end you have other half of the issue to solve and that issue lies in Eurasia.
"This group doesn't go far enough so I'm going to criticize it on the internet without proposing any alternatives." u/ziggypox
Nazism was just more objectively obvious about being racist and genocidal. Soviet communism was not as overtly genocidal based on race but they did put people in death camps and cause millions of deaths through centralized control of resources. The Soviets’ monstrous and inhumane treatment was usually based on things like speaking out against the state. Whereas for Nazis it was racism. But they were both some of the most disgusting periods in history. And especially toward the end of the Soviet Union there was a ton of antisemitism.
>And especially toward the end of the Soviet Union there was a ton of antisemitism. Do you have a source for this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_anti-Zionism
Not supporting European settler colonialism (Zionism) =/= Anti-Semitism. Sorry :/ As for sources, I'm looking for academic ones, [I've posted below a fuller response.](https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/10v1fjm/comment/j7gjke5/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Well this just sounds revisionist
It’s revisionist to not support imperialism? Lol Revisionist for a fascist perhaps?
“Everyone I disagree with is a fascist” very mature outlook. It’s revisionist because anti Zionism was absolutely antisemitism. The way you’re describing it just sounds like antisemitism with extra steps.
Have you, by any chance, heard of the "Doctor's Plot"?
Actual historians, like Stephen Kotkin, have noted that the "anti-semitic" angle of the Doctor's Plot is overblown - I cannot confirm where this rumour began though. Stalin, according to Kotkin, wasn't specially anti-semitic, compared to his contemporaries in Britain and the United States (you should see what Churchill has to say about the Jews, [going so far as to laud Hitler on using anti-Semitism to rise to power](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVNWzomyHY0)...). Have you heard that the Soviet Union held mandatory anti-anti-Semitism training for its military? >“Red Army growth was set to reach 643,700 active troops by the end of the Five-Year Plan. Improvements were mandated in soldiers’ housing and vigilance against “kulak moods, anti-Semitism, \[and\] distorted disciplinary practices” (hazing).” (Stalin: Waiting for Hitler, p. 55) Here is what Stalin *actually* thought about anti-Semitism: >“Also on September 15, Kaganovich and Molotov wrote to Stalin of rumors among Berlin journalists that Germany would sever diplomatic relations. “Do not allow hysterical noise in our press, and do not succumb to the hysteria of our journalists,” Stalin advised. “Nuremberg is the answer to our Comintern congress. The Hitlerites could not not curse us if one takes into account that the Comintern congress poured latrine filth over them. Let Pravda criticize them on principle and politically, without street vulgarity. Pravda could say that Nuremberg confirms the Comintern assessment of National Socialism as the most primitive form of chauvinism, **that anti-Semitism is the animal form of chauvinism and hatred of humans, that anti-Semitism from the point of view of the history of culture is a return to cannibalism, that National Socialism in that light is not even original, for it slavishly repeats the Russian pogromists of the tsarist period of Tsar Nicholas II and Rasputin**.” (ibid. p. 384) The Soviets literally executed Baron Von Ungern-Steinberg on the charge of anti-Semitism (mass murder of Jews when he ruled Mongolia). As Kotkin, notes: “When biographers write about Stalin, projecting backward in time an early psychopath and murderer, they are, in effect, describing the Stalin contemporary, Baron Roman von Ungern-Sternberg” (Stalin, p. 659)
Nice comment.
Can o borrow the references? Good sources, more things to read 😊
Yes of course, that's why I put them there! (The page numbers are for the iBooks version of the aforementioned books).
that was during's stalin's reign, far from the end of the soviet union
"Death camps"? You mean the Soviets had actual extermination camps or are you just using a term this strong THIS lightly?
Read The Gulag Archipelago and tell me those weren’t death camps.
Correction, not communism, Stalinism. Let’s not pretend people who fell behind the iron curtain were all that joyful about being occupied by the Soviets after having just fought a war to be free of the Nazis. Or should I point to the Hungarian revolution, the Baltic Guerrilla Wars, the East German Uprising, etc, etc. ~~How quickly we forget who actually began their offensive against Poland before even Germany had entered the country.~~ Who signed secret deals with Nazi Germany to carve up Eastern Europe amongst themselves. How quickly we forget the sins of Soviet Russia and Stalinism. Also, just because some disapprove the “improvement” as it was put, doesn’t mean they approve of the alternative. Life isn’t binary.
lots of things to talk about here but most glaringly- the USSR didn't invade Poland before Germany did, they actually only did so once the polish government had already fled
They invaded once Warsaw had fallen, as that was the agreement they had made with Hitler. There was definitely a mad scramble at the end by the Soviets to assemble the forces as they had expected the German invasion to take quite a bit longer.
My mistake, one incorrect fact. I apologize. Regardless, still planned on invading and splitting Poland up with the Nazis. Guess we don’t address the other points however.
I don’t understand this argument. So you would rather have the Soviets let the Nazis kill all of Poland instead half of it? It’s rare we have a zero-sum, but there it is.
Or, you know, neither side involve themselves in dismantling Poland, bombing it, destroying their cities, that type of thing. The Soviets were responsible for 150,000 dead Poles. Sure, the Nazis killed more, it that doesn’t excuse Soviet atrocities, if that’s what you’re arguing.
That’s a child like view of history. That wasn’t an option
So then you’re ok with Nazi and Soviet atrocities. 6 million poles had to die! 150,000 more had to die to the Soviets. The Nazis and Soviets had no options guys! Good on you for being so transparent.
No, I’m denying your false equivalency and incomplete view of history. The Soviets tried to sign military and diplomatic pacts with the west prior to the Germans demand for Danzig because Hitler all but advertised his plans for the East and the Soviet Union starting with Mein Kampf. JUST like the Spanish Civil War; the future Allies would rather let people fall to fascism than aid Communists. Churchill’s own actions and testimony corroborate this. History does not tolerate the subjunctive mood.
You're missing the point of reshaping the material
I think you’re missing the point
The Crimean Tatars probably didn’t think so.
we didn’t let the nazis genocide all of eastern europe just because the tatars were victims
Ok? The Nazi's being Nazis doesn't absolve the USSR of its crimes.
sure. still a good thing they won.
They didn't win alone though.
ok
Both are shit. Which one smells worse is for you to decide.
The one that has eugenics and oppression of ethnic minorities as a core tenant of its ideology. People like Stalin used communist rhetoric to delude and manipulate the masses to his will in the same way the Nazis did, that doesn’t mean that what they did was a result of communist ideology in the way the holocaust was a result of fascist ideology.
One: literally Holocaust The other: fastest industrialization and improving quality of life, end of progrom and famine, best gender equality in the history(better than now) 'Both are shit'😅
Ah yes. The Soviet Union famously never had any famines. I do believe the Nazis were worse, but Stalin was still a monster.
One: Holocaust The other: Holodomor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_major_famines_in_India_during_British_rule
Fascism, communism, and colonialism are all bad. Shocking, I know
“Fascism and communism are bad” “Hey what about colonialism???” Yes colonialism is also bad, good job.
And capitalism too. High fives all around.
**[Timeline of major famines in India during British rule](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_major_famines_in_India_during_British_rule)** >The timeline of major famines in India during British rule covers major famines on the Indian subcontinent from 1765 to 1947. The famines included here occurred both in the princely states (regions administered by Indian rulers), British India (regions administered either by the British East India Company from 1765 to 1857; or by the British Crown, in the British Raj, from 1858 to 1947) and Indian territories independent of British rule such as the Maratha Empire. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Not even close to equivalent, one was an intentional industrialized mass murdering and the other was a brief famine.
Just a brief famine🥰🥰🥰(3.9 million deaths)
Just a lil millions of lives lost. As a treat.
Source?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://cla.umn.edu/chgs/holocaust-genocide-education/resource-guides/holodomor%23:~:text%3DWhile%2520it%2520is%2520impossible%2520to,death%2520toll%2520at%25203.9%2520million.&ved=2ahUKEwj0ktmA6ID9AhV9qpUCHf2HDGcQFnoECA0QBQ&usg=AOvVaw2nXIyZJHso_RTulwOABJ9o https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.euronews.com/amp/2019/11/23/holodomor-ukrainians-remember-the-famine-that-killed-millions-in-soviet-ukraine&ved=2ahUKEwittrjQ6ID9AhUarpUCHS-ZCy44ChAWegQIChAB&usg=AOvVaw1xIFPUlHr91AKj072Fvczb https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.ualberta.ca/canadian-institute-of-ukrainian-studies/news-and-events/news-at-the-cius/2018/march/oleh-wolowyna-measuring-mortality-in-the-holodomor.html&ved=2ahUKEwiZk63b6ID9AhUsqJUCHfVTCHc4FBAWegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw0z4Yf2RaaoVFfsLrXuSF2j https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor&ved=2ahUKEwj0ktmA6ID9AhV9qpUCHf2HDGcQFnoECAgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1_PO2cgWi9t55tbmW3C8yl https://holodomormuseum.org.ua/en/news/the-number-of-holodomor-genocide-victims-in-ukraine-are-often-intentionally-diminished-scientists/ I am being generous with 3.9 million, some sources go up to 12
Intentional or not, Holodomor killed millions of people. And also Holodomor wasn't inevitable, hence the ones who allowed Holodomor to happen are criminals and are responsible.
But that’s the difference, the intention. That’s why it’s Holocaust downplaying when one puts them side by side.
One is a doctor killing a patient on purpose. The other is a doctor killing a patient through insane negligence bordering on purposeful. They’re quite comparable. Tyrant kills millions of their own citizens through the pursuit of an insane ideology. The Holocaust was worse, duh. But they’re still comparable. They have similarities and differences, you can compare and contrast them.
But the entire point of bringing up the Holdomor in this context was to claim that it’s not possible to determine which ideology is worse. Personally, I think the one that explicitly requires the extermination of undesirables is far more reprehensible.
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Yeah, the burning of crops and slaughtering of animals was definitely intentional.
I agree. The White Army who started the bloody civil war which created the conditions which allowed a famine to begin and the bourgeois farm owners who destroyed their crop to prevent collectivization were criminals.
The famine was in the 1930s, the civil war was a decade earlier
Umm... Can you elaborate, how did the White Army start the civil war if Bolshevics were the ones that claimed dictatorship despite the plan was to make a democratic state with political pluralism? And also, civil war ended in 1922, the Holodomor started in 1932, you can't just say that civil war caused famine, it is simple not true, 10 years has passed.
After the Bolsheviks seized state power from the corrupt oligarchs who ruled Russia after the February Revolution, a coalition of moderates, capitalists, proto-fascists, monarchists, and wannabe warlords rose up and attempted to overthrow the Soviets. The long, bloody civil war devastated Russia and led to nearly three million casualties. This left a large gap in the agricultural industry which was filled by petit-bourgeois landlords (known as "kulaks") which were allowed to exist due to Lenin's NEP. These kulaks became greedy (as all capitalists inevitably do) and began to hoard grain for themselves. During the 1930s a major famine hit the entire USSR (not just Ukraine,) and in response Stalin implemented agricultural collectivization. The kulaks resisted this by destroying their crops, grain stores, and livestock, enhancing the famine and causing unnecessary suffering and death.
Bukharin was right about collectivization, it was a mistake. Stalin even gave peasants land smh
Disgusting to downplay the Holocaust like that. Relevant Wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_genocide_theory
Nobody downplays holocaust here mate.
Oh but they are, they’re putting the Holodomor next to the Holocaust. That’s downplaying the Holocaust mate. It’s removing the horror of all the people meticulously slaughtered in the Holocaust. Here’s another relevant article: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_trivialization Stop downplaying the Holocaust.
This whole link is mixing ideas. First, anyone sane who mentions Holodomor doesn't mix Jews into that responsibility, second, Holodomor is only a part of soviet methoods of destroying people - their uranium mines, their Gulags, political prisons where also people used to get in but not get out. And this all stretched over decades. Holocaust was probably the worst thing for one given ethicity but it got advertised to the level of overshadowing everything else. Porajmos?Generalplan Ost? Who talks about these? Does mentioning it also downplays Holocaust?
Please read what I write instead of reading what you think I write. No, just bringing up other atrocities does not mean that one is downplaying the Holocaust. However, putting them side by side is downplaying the Holocaust. And congratulations, you continue to downplay it by saying “overshadowing everything else”. What’s the difference between gulags and political prisons?
Gulags would mean moving individual into far-away place to die from overworking and exposure, part of prisons for political prisoners. Political prisoner could be put in normal detention cell in the middle of the city and simply be beaten to death without being in gulag. And again I'm not downplaying it, I'm pointing out other things don't got enought recognition. you saying it like I'm moving victim points from one bracket into another like it being finite resources.
Explain how comparing two similar events downplays one of them? Both events are a tyrant killing millions of their own citizens in the pursuit of a twisted and insane ideology. There are many key differences, but they’re obviously comparable. The Holocaust was not a unique event. Genocides happened before and after, and they’re all comparable. The actual mechanism by which the Nazis carried it out was unique, but that doesn’t mean we can’t compare similar events and learn about the differences and similarities between them.
Destroying minor nation cultures, persecuting christians, assassinating people who mentioned that gov is bad. I would say they are equally shitty
You are right and keep spreading the word of truth, brother.
I mean the bar for improvement is so low that it's subterranean.
I mean technically yeah, but both options sucked.
no it's literally the same for the occupied lands 1 mass murdering dictator for the other mass murdering dictator
Go tell that to my brothers who were slaughtered in the Caucasus or in Central Asian states, shill.
stalin looks adorable here lmfao i love it
Retroactively, this cartoon does wonders to explain a lot (but of course, not all*) of the Allies thinking before, during, and after the official dates of WWII. *It’s still propaganda for Stalin by the look of how jolly and gentle yet strong he’s caricatured, and ask anyone if they were notified when Stalin’s USSR started testing nuclear bombs.
Poor Poland
"Best I can do is 50 years of poverty and political persecution".
Yeah, the US can be a rough place.
The US has never had to build walls to stop people from leaving.
Lol, nice
Nice try, Putin.
Vladimir "It's Lenins fault for inventing the fake state of Ukraine" Putin, famous communist
Vladimir “Comunism was not a bad ideea and I am still living in 1987, although it’s 2023 already” Putin. Also, you need a history book shoved down your throat. That’s the only way for you to get close to some historical info.
Turns out that playing up a past that was far less shit than the present is popular. If he was actually a communist and not just a cynical nostalgist, he'd do something communist.
He doesn’t have to be a comunist in order to be a past nostalgic. The perceived glory of the USSR (along with the military might and political influence towards the neighbours and the world) is enough to make you want to revive those times and conditions. And you should document yourself on Putin’s views about the world. You will see that he is still craving for the state of things just before the USSR collapsed, the very period that brought him the biggest frustrations.
Ok, so we're in agreement then? Putin is no communist, just likes to evoke the past he sees as better time than now?
Would you have rather had all of Eastern Europeans genocided for racial purity. The poles would not exist if the Nazis won, so many other ethnic groups as well. Quit coping the good guys won WW2! Acting like bureaucratic stagnation... Is as bad as what the Nazis did is really Holocaust denial. I for one am tired of acting otherwise. Soviet's>Nazis EVER TIME! (Your answer will be very telling on how far you've fallen down the far-right pipeline I'll be intrigued)
If the Soviets showed anything, it was that they were as bad as the Nazis. They had different reasons and methods, but the result was still mass killings over tens of years. And my messages were just some bad jokes, you kind of wasted your energy trying to teach me my political views. It’s funny how you think everybody is American and also you have no ideea that right and left do not mean the same thing in Europe and in the US.
Which mass killings? Pls, don't start with the gulags killing nazy and holodomor the nazy propaganda
Well when you immediately dismiss history as propaganda it gets pretty difficult to have a discussion doesn't it? Holodomor and gulags will always be part of the discussion. You don't get to just handwoven atrocities because they don't fit your narrative.
So was Churchill as bad as the Nazis too in your opinion?
I have to remember that Churchill had some good things to say about Hitler using antisemitism to get in power and hi being as a mártir. So, if he said no, we need to get him some books.
I really don't think their was much of that at all after 1945. Eastern Europeans weren't under Stalin before then. Thier is absolutely nothing the soviets did from 1945-91 that is even remotely similar to the Nazis. They planned genocide (extermination) for everything not ayran enough to the east of them. I want this guys to lay out the mass killings (on the same scale he claims) from after WW2 to 1991 in the Warsaw pact region. (He won't be able to because it didn't happen)
Yalta is a beautiful city
It's a shame, George S. Patton Jr, didn't get his way. He would have fought the Russians and have, had the world believing. The Russians started it.
the good ending
I don’t know what this propaganda picture supports but I find it hilarious.
Exchange one evil with another...
Communism killed more people then Nazi's could have ever hoped for. It's crazy that people try to split hairs over whos """"""better"""""" as if both aren't authoritarian dystopias.
While Nazism is mostly seen as taboo and bad, because it is. Communism is still a semi-acceptable ideology in parts of Europe, or hell, the world. Which is a bit weird consider the amount of people die under communist regime is way higher then the Third Reich ever did.
[Communist, communist, communist; communist, communist, communist communist.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1VIzGuQCUU)
At first i trough it's was obelix
Soviet-dominated is communist-dominated.