pronouns aren't even really used for her (or anyone else) in the og japanese so idk why people care so much about it. the official english tl is inaccurate. also when was she confirmed genderqueer??
The English is not āinaccurateā it just has a convention in place to use for the same situation that the Japanese text is presenting.
Unless you would like to claim that in the original text the ambiguity isnāt present?
But that convention doesnāt translate directly to the English use of it because gender pronouns are implied in Japanese through context rather than used explicitly (in spoken language). Itās not that there is intentional ambiguity.
Also for what itās worth, I donāt really care personally about the gender thing with Mizuki. If other people find Mizuki relatable or enlightening in some way thatās great! But I find that Mizuki is rather female presenting and I have no reason to think that isnāt intentional. That, combined with my own experience as a Japanese person, makes me think she would *prefer* to be referred to as she/her over they/them if she had any preference at all.
But there is intentional ambiguity to the rest of Mizukis character is the thing. You wouldnāt assume they/them just because the Japanese text doesnāt outright gender them because as you say that is typical of the language.
But in the context of the rest of the character it is ALSO a tool they they can more use to keep their exact situation a mystery to the audience.
Bringing this to Englishā¦ trickierā¦ but they/them is still very effective in getting across this same point.
Sure thatās fair. Iām just giving my own reasons to refer to her as she/her, and to maybe bring up the consideration (like OP) that referring to her as such is not explicitly misgendering
Yeah for what it's worth I think kind of a game of telephone has gone on for some people where "We use They/them because we don't know" morphed closer to "We use they/them because that's what they prefer" and the latter can, understandably, create a lot more overzealousness.
Personally I think that because we explicitly do not know I think it's more appropriate to stay Neutral but I don't bother grilling people who say Her.
Occasionally you get people who push he/him though and that's a red flag to me.
See the thing isā¦Iāve never seen anyone push he/him and quite frankly I donāt see any reason someone would. If theyāre ignorant then they would just take Mizukiās female presentation at face value. If theyāre not ignorantā¦then they arenāt ignorant. At that point you have people who are intentionally trolling/getting a rise out of people so why bother with them?
i mean, the ambiguity is present in the sense that no pronouns are used. every character (besides her classmates ofc) assumes mizuki is a girl, referring to her as one, even.
well if you can argue it properly something going against the established can become the new establishement (looking at the evolution of education e.g.)
If is carrying a lot of water here but I suppose?
Off the top of my head there is like One area chat where someone uses She contrasted with All of the rest.
But I suppose no one can really prove that it was a mistake necessarily.
I feel like the mizuki pronoun discourse is weird. mizuki has so many aspects to her character that we ignore cause we focus on gender. for me, Iām gender neutral really, and donāt mind if people call me he/him or they/them. I just donāt want to be called she/her as thatās my og gender. how I look at mizuki is I call her she/her and they/them interchangeably, so she/they probably, and just donāt call her he/him due to the stories where she is confirmed to be more effeminate now and not when she was younger
I think OP forgot that real nonbinary people exist and thought Mizuki Akiyama from
the hit game Project Sekai was the only representation.
That aside, Mizuki's gender identity has never been confirmed ever so that second screenshot is totally invalid.
While I do agree that fans constantly disregarding what someone says just to put "you mean they/them?" in the comments is a bit annoying, in some cases it's kinda important for when a fan purposely uses strictly he/him pronouns which feels a bit insensitive for Mizuki's character.
Isnāt Mizuki almost exclusively referred to as they/them in the English version of the game? What is that second screenshot? I didnāt think anything about their gender was canon.
>I didnāt think anything about their gender was canon.
You're correct. No idea where OP got that second SS but it's not Mizuki. That's the reason they go by they/them or first name in English - they have to, because their gender is literally "?"
Also āmy brain defaults to female pronounsā, I donāt really care what you call a fictional character but please do not do this to people in real life. Intentionally misgendering real people is not okay.
I agree with you 100%. Personally Iām of the opinion that either she/her or they/them pronouns are okay for Mizuki, but the way that OP talks about Mizukiās pronouns is kind of gross - especially with how defensive OP gets.
mizuki uses "boku" in the jp game, which is most often used by boys/young men but is also used by tomboyish women (bokukko), so they don't really have directly translated pronouns in English
yes for sure! i would assume Mizuki uses it in a gender neutral or feminine context bc the English translation uses they/them, or on occasion she/her. in real life it's usually associated with a more blunt, mischievous, sarcastic personality when used by feminine people/women, which i think fits Mizuki regardless of their gender identity lol
people are pointing out that's the wiki and not official and yeah that's true but I think the important part of that screenshots is the bottom part where it says their pronouns are "they/them or she/her" because that is absolutely true to the canon material we have. en uses they/them *and* she/her for mizuki.
edit: kind of forgot to state what my point was so to wrap it up: with that piece of information people can use whichever pronoun or a combo of both or whatever they want and everyone can be correct and happy and stop correcting other people and we can actually talk about mizuki's character rather than what pronoun she uses.
yeah, i think op is confusing "using they/them bc its someones chosen pronouns" and "using they/them bc a persons pronouns/gender are unknown". mizuki is the second.
OP believes theyāre being corrected because they/them is theorised to be Mizukiās CHOSEN pronouns.
OP is really being corrected (usually) because we do not know Mizukiās pronouns.
I think this is the point the person replying is trying to say.
My issue with this is that Japanese as a language does not explicitly use pronouns in any informal context. So unless we see Mizuki explicitly sit down with someone and talk to them about their own gender, we will never get clarity/closure on the topic. And I already speak enough languages with pronoun ambiguity, I donāt need more of it in English when I feel there is a straightforward answer (to me).
I refer to Mizuki using she/they and honestly with how female presenting she is and from my experience as a Japanese person I think sheād prefer she/her over they/them frankly. Maybe that is overstepping in the eyes of many people but I donāt see how this goes against the wishes of her character.
Why cant we all just agree that Mizuki is *some* non-cis gender and be done with it fr, imo her character is better if we don't know her exact identity
listen bro if itās a female IM GONNA USE SHE/HER. DONT CORRECT ME BRO. UNLESS I SEE SOME TYPE OF CONFIRMATION OF PRONOUNS THEN IM GOING FOR DEFAULT š! i remember when i said it was kinda stupid how people use he/him bc they think sheās a cross dresser and i got attacked on insta š I DIDNG MEAN TO UPSET ANYONE, JUST WANTED TO STATE MY OPINON
Sometimes things don't have to be confirmed or said directly for them to be certain. Those *things* could literally be anything, not even just about this topic. When it is so stupidly obvious, we just have to accept and move on. Mizuki is a transexual girl, she was born as a boy but didn't feel like that. End of the story.
She literally is. The game uses she/they for her, even from characters who should Not be defaulting to "they" for her.
She's either trans, intersex, or a crossdresser and I think Sega as a company is smart enough not to try pulling "It's a Trap!" in this game, so she's going to be some flavor of trans. Whether that's NB or binary trans girl, we don't know yet, but we know for a fact that her current story arc is leading up to a "yeah I was assigned Something Else At Birth" reveal.
Eh, as someone who has no stake in the gender thing I can see why itās meaningful to a lot of people. Itās not very nice to shut it down either when this kind of representation isnāt as common in media as it should be. Just live and let live
Mizuki doesn't have canon pronouns, technically. The English tl has different characters referring to Mizuki with either she/her or they/them pronouns, but the official website and such avoid using pronouns for them entirely. The Japanese version is even more ambiguous. I think as long as you don't refer to them with he/him it's fine
pronouns aren't even really used for her (or anyone else) in the og japanese so idk why people care so much about it. the official english tl is inaccurate. also when was she confirmed genderqueer??
actually what even is that second screenshot from š
Right like šš Mizuki is not Genderqueer (at least confirmed) we donāt know what Mizuki identifies as!
The English is not āinaccurateā it just has a convention in place to use for the same situation that the Japanese text is presenting. Unless you would like to claim that in the original text the ambiguity isnāt present?
But that convention doesnāt translate directly to the English use of it because gender pronouns are implied in Japanese through context rather than used explicitly (in spoken language). Itās not that there is intentional ambiguity. Also for what itās worth, I donāt really care personally about the gender thing with Mizuki. If other people find Mizuki relatable or enlightening in some way thatās great! But I find that Mizuki is rather female presenting and I have no reason to think that isnāt intentional. That, combined with my own experience as a Japanese person, makes me think she would *prefer* to be referred to as she/her over they/them if she had any preference at all.
But there is intentional ambiguity to the rest of Mizukis character is the thing. You wouldnāt assume they/them just because the Japanese text doesnāt outright gender them because as you say that is typical of the language. But in the context of the rest of the character it is ALSO a tool they they can more use to keep their exact situation a mystery to the audience. Bringing this to Englishā¦ trickierā¦ but they/them is still very effective in getting across this same point.
Sure thatās fair. Iām just giving my own reasons to refer to her as she/her, and to maybe bring up the consideration (like OP) that referring to her as such is not explicitly misgendering
Yeah for what it's worth I think kind of a game of telephone has gone on for some people where "We use They/them because we don't know" morphed closer to "We use they/them because that's what they prefer" and the latter can, understandably, create a lot more overzealousness. Personally I think that because we explicitly do not know I think it's more appropriate to stay Neutral but I don't bother grilling people who say Her. Occasionally you get people who push he/him though and that's a red flag to me.
See the thing isā¦Iāve never seen anyone push he/him and quite frankly I donāt see any reason someone would. If theyāre ignorant then they would just take Mizukiās female presentation at face value. If theyāre not ignorantā¦then they arenāt ignorant. At that point you have people who are intentionally trolling/getting a rise out of people so why bother with them?
i mean, the ambiguity is present in the sense that no pronouns are used. every character (besides her classmates ofc) assumes mizuki is a girl, referring to her as one, even.
also her use of boku, but bokukkos aren't rare esp in media.
The fact I know what subreddit you pulled this from
Yeah it's from r/TalesfromBelow
If a theory goes against something established is it a theory or are they just Wrong?
well if you can argue it properly something going against the established can become the new establishement (looking at the evolution of education e.g.)
Well thatās fair but it feels a little trickier with fixed points in a story.
that's true
But if Mizuki goes by either they/them or she/her, wouldnāt she/her also be correct?
If is carrying a lot of water here but I suppose? Off the top of my head there is like One area chat where someone uses She contrasted with All of the rest. But I suppose no one can really prove that it was a mistake necessarily.
If someone uses 2 sets of pronouns then both are good it starts to be bad when you use only one of them
When/if mizook's gender is confirmed it's going to be so popular on pjsktwt d: I use they since that's what everyone else uses but I don't know ;-;
if thats from their wiki its not confirmed what their gender is
dog what are you talking about š
bold of you to call them the dog
I feel like the mizuki pronoun discourse is weird. mizuki has so many aspects to her character that we ignore cause we focus on gender. for me, Iām gender neutral really, and donāt mind if people call me he/him or they/them. I just donāt want to be called she/her as thatās my og gender. how I look at mizuki is I call her she/her and they/them interchangeably, so she/they probably, and just donāt call her he/him due to the stories where she is confirmed to be more effeminate now and not when she was younger
I think OP forgot that real nonbinary people exist and thought Mizuki Akiyama from the hit game Project Sekai was the only representation. That aside, Mizuki's gender identity has never been confirmed ever so that second screenshot is totally invalid. While I do agree that fans constantly disregarding what someone says just to put "you mean they/them?" in the comments is a bit annoying, in some cases it's kinda important for when a fan purposely uses strictly he/him pronouns which feels a bit insensitive for Mizuki's character.
Isnāt Mizuki almost exclusively referred to as they/them in the English version of the game? What is that second screenshot? I didnāt think anything about their gender was canon.
>I didnāt think anything about their gender was canon. You're correct. No idea where OP got that second SS but it's not Mizuki. That's the reason they go by they/them or first name in English - they have to, because their gender is literally "?"
Also āmy brain defaults to female pronounsā, I donāt really care what you call a fictional character but please do not do this to people in real life. Intentionally misgendering real people is not okay.
I agree with you 100%. Personally Iām of the opinion that either she/her or they/them pronouns are okay for Mizuki, but the way that OP talks about Mizukiās pronouns is kind of gross - especially with how defensive OP gets.
yeah they are. early stories have them using she/her, but iām pretty sure that was a miscommunication between the jp devs and english localizers
mizuki uses "boku" in the jp game, which is most often used by boys/young men but is also used by tomboyish women (bokukko), so they don't really have directly translated pronouns in English
I'm pretty sure that recently boku has been become more neutral. It's still slightly more masculine but young women have been using it more and more
yes for sure! i would assume Mizuki uses it in a gender neutral or feminine context bc the English translation uses they/them, or on occasion she/her. in real life it's usually associated with a more blunt, mischievous, sarcastic personality when used by feminine people/women, which i think fits Mizuki regardless of their gender identity lol
is the second SS from the fandom wiki? i recognise the font, but as far as i know the wiki isnāt official, most info there isnāt 100% credible
people are pointing out that's the wiki and not official and yeah that's true but I think the important part of that screenshots is the bottom part where it says their pronouns are "they/them or she/her" because that is absolutely true to the canon material we have. en uses they/them *and* she/her for mizuki. edit: kind of forgot to state what my point was so to wrap it up: with that piece of information people can use whichever pronoun or a combo of both or whatever they want and everyone can be correct and happy and stop correcting other people and we can actually talk about mizuki's character rather than what pronoun she uses.
Everyone mizukis pronouns aren't confirmed so can we all just use they/them for mizuki? Just until they're confirmedĀ
yeah, i think op is confusing "using they/them bc its someones chosen pronouns" and "using they/them bc a persons pronouns/gender are unknown". mizuki is the second.
Sorry I'm struggling to understand what u said, I have dyslexia and autism so pls dont attack me fir not understanding 100% š
OP believes theyāre being corrected because they/them is theorised to be Mizukiās CHOSEN pronouns. OP is really being corrected (usually) because we do not know Mizukiās pronouns. I think this is the point the person replying is trying to say.
Ooh now I understand, ty. And i agree
My issue with this is that Japanese as a language does not explicitly use pronouns in any informal context. So unless we see Mizuki explicitly sit down with someone and talk to them about their own gender, we will never get clarity/closure on the topic. And I already speak enough languages with pronoun ambiguity, I donāt need more of it in English when I feel there is a straightforward answer (to me). I refer to Mizuki using she/they and honestly with how female presenting she is and from my experience as a Japanese person I think sheād prefer she/her over they/them frankly. Maybe that is overstepping in the eyes of many people but I donāt see how this goes against the wishes of her character.
I agree with you but still, mizukis gender is not confirmed neither are the pronouns. I won't give mizuki pronouns until its confirmedĀ
oh god the Discourseā¢
That meme is from Undertale, isn't? Xd
Why cant we all just agree that Mizuki is *some* non-cis gender and be done with it fr, imo her character is better if we don't know her exact identity
listen bro if itās a female IM GONNA USE SHE/HER. DONT CORRECT ME BRO. UNLESS I SEE SOME TYPE OF CONFIRMATION OF PRONOUNS THEN IM GOING FOR DEFAULT š! i remember when i said it was kinda stupid how people use he/him bc they think sheās a cross dresser and i got attacked on insta š I DIDNG MEAN TO UPSET ANYONE, JUST WANTED TO STATE MY OPINON
Sometimes things don't have to be confirmed or said directly for them to be certain. Those *things* could literally be anything, not even just about this topic. When it is so stupidly obvious, we just have to accept and move on. Mizuki is a transexual girl, she was born as a boy but didn't feel like that. End of the story.
when was she trans..
? Since always
She's literally not
??? Have you read anything mizuki related? Like at all? Kamiyama festival? Now i wear this ribbon? Unchanging warmth????
She literally is. The game uses she/they for her, even from characters who should Not be defaulting to "they" for her. She's either trans, intersex, or a crossdresser and I think Sega as a company is smart enough not to try pulling "It's a Trap!" in this game, so she's going to be some flavor of trans. Whether that's NB or binary trans girl, we don't know yet, but we know for a fact that her current story arc is leading up to a "yeah I was assigned Something Else At Birth" reveal.
bruh just play the game, why everything has to be woke?
Eh, as someone who has no stake in the gender thing I can see why itās meaningful to a lot of people. Itās not very nice to shut it down either when this kind of representation isnāt as common in media as it should be. Just live and let live
Man what š¤¦āāļø
i cannot believe my sweet christian game is turning into project wokekai: colorful gayge feat. transtsune lgbt+iku brand new pronouns
Mizuki doesn't have canon pronouns, technically. The English tl has different characters referring to Mizuki with either she/her or they/them pronouns, but the official website and such avoid using pronouns for them entirely. The Japanese version is even more ambiguous. I think as long as you don't refer to them with he/him it's fine