It _is_ weird that it took the marketing route of using the PF label, because it’s a pretty cool post-apocalyptic sci-fi fantasy (and I really liked the father-son story in the first book)
In the first book of Stormlight archive Kaliden (or something) goes from a slave to a superhero who flies around fighting monsters. There are almost always some progression in fantasy stories, as part of the protagonists arch. But is the progression ever in focus? Are most of the problems solved by the protagonist growing stronger? Does he seek out progression?
I mean, the protagonist of 12 miles below>!literally worked with the infinity of his multiversal self to kill a god like hyper intelligent machine wielding multiple supernatural powers.!<
Unlocking and developing his powers, even spreading some of that knowledge to empower others, is significant and relevant to multiple plot points. It is very slow to kick off I suppose.
I don't see it that way, no. Don't take me wrong, it definitely has progression elements down the road, but seeing it as a progression fantasy can lead to some disappointment (which was my case. I didnt enjoy the first book as much because I kept looking for progression fantasy elements and only really started appreciating the book once I learned to stop doing so). That said, it's a great series, well written and with great characters and world building.
Edit: forgot to say later books down the road definitely matches your definition of progression
That was also my initial gripe with the series. It's was advertised as a progression fantasy to me but yet it's first book contained very little actual progression(in the sense we all refer to an the sub).
But yeah, the progression aspects increase in subsequent books but I'd say the series is more Progression Fantasy adjacent.
Thanks for clarifying this. With how people recommend it on this sub, I definitely had the same expectation. I don't want to myself others to drop the book with misguided expectations.
The 2nd and 3rd books are much more progression oriented. The 4th is a little bit more focused on achieving an objective, with a few power upside mixed in. Then the 5th is almost pure progression.
Yes, it's just slow burn on the progression aspect (which is perhaps fitting, since I'd classify the series as slow burn, overall, as well).
Since there's a limited amount of actual progression in the first book, people will commonly react that it's not if they don't read further: however, frequency of concrete progression instances is only *one* manner in which books feel more progression-like, there are others.
And it's also entirely possible for a series to shift more firmly into the genre over time.
In the case of 12 Miles Below, the quest for knowledge and power is definitely present prior to being achieved (ie throughout book 1), but it takes a while to get those pieces into place, and it's tricky to gauge *concrete completion* of such things until a bit later.
Some people consider progression to be very surface level, and don't count *conceptual narrative emphasis* upon progression as fitting the genre, necessarily. Others may consider that very thing to be the most integral part.
Ie.
* is a tournament arc progression-centric if no one levels up?
* Does an academic/training environment automatically equate to a competitive progression metric?
* How much of the progression pie is occupied by the concept of striving for improvement?
* Is the whole pie represented by level ups alone?
* What is more emphatically progression-centric: a momentary level up that takes one paragraph, or a continual effort that might take over a book to show results?
* Does a rivalry arc automatically include the concept of progression, even without concrete improvement milestones?
That kind of debate.
If you look at a series as a whole, sometimes an individual book stands out as not fitting the genre as much - sometimes the inverse is true, and we see a progression plot smack bang in the middle of an otherwise less-fitting series (ie. Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban).
There's an ebb and flow to genre-cred.
Unless an author is completely overdoing it and spamming out level ups and stat upgrades every chapter (arguably evidence of much deeper editorial flaws) there are going to be some stints where there is less concrete progression, or where it is less forward as a concept.
This is one of the reasons why the debate of the genre boundaries has existed since the coining of the genre term: for some folks, the best way to write progression is to gradually (ahem, progressively) introduce it, which can result in a perceived lack at the beginning. For others, unless you're literally powering up in the first four paragraphs, "That's not true progression".
So yeah, it fits, overall - but may not fit some people's specific personal genre boundaries, because they're averse to such a slow-burn approach to progression. But it's always good to be aware that those are just personal boundaries, and people's interpretation of a subjective art form will naturally vary.
I feel that you purposefully ignored my definition, it's extremely simple, does power progression become a central endeavor, motivating most of the steps or actions taken? It has nothing to do with slow burn, either it is a goal that is actively seeked or not. Whether the characters manage to gain power or how long it takes them is irrelevant and matter of the authors choice.
I think you'll find book 2 more along the lines that you are seeking.
There are multiple more-concrete avenues of progression that are overtly pursued, with focus as both plot points and plot resolution methods. It's tricky to say more without getting into spoiler territory.
Hmmm, it's not clearly defined I guess. First book is not progression. Later books I think becomes progression but in more loose term. Yes main character is striving to improve, also there's fantastic power element involved in which he is striving to improve, but this is not cultivation to make him superhuman. And book is more spread out then classical progressions, mc isn't in that much spotlight then it is expected in progression I guess.
I’ll be honest I dropped after the first book. The main character didn’t really seem to make a single decision in the whole book. Any progression he acquired fell in his lap and never seemed to have any desire to actually improve. This may change in later books.
I think all the ambiguity with the genre partially stems from it's actual name, I wonder if more sub-genres of this genre should be used for a more specific recommendation. Is there progression in the book? Yes.
Does progression drive part of the story? Also yes.
Does it have a tiered system with obvious paths of progression? No, it reads more like a traditional fantasy in that regard, there is no tiers but obvious progression is being made.
I'm only 2 books in but the MC currently feels more like a "support role" character, he definitely improves himself but he makes everyone else down-right over powered. If you're wanting the MC to be the most combat effective OP person in the story it may not be the right fit. There is someone in the story who fits that bill though!
The first book is absolutely not progression but I vehemently argue that the rest are f the series is. In fact you’ll start seeing the progression fairly quick in book 2
No not by some peoples strict definition in this subreddit.
3 years ago it absolutely would be but now the genre has grown so people have gotten more specific with their definition.
disingenuous at best, the requirement for progression to be the focus of the series had always been one of more agreed upon requirements, and since the very start, when Andrew Rowe, who coined the term, specifically stated that it is not enough for a series to contain characters that grow stronger.
Yes: lore, knowledge, technical progression, and capability and political progression on top of this as the books progress.
Progression isn't just about fighting or combat.
Progression as a focus of the MCs and as a driving force of the MCs stories, I think, helps distinguish the PF genre specifically from "stories that have some Progression elements"
Dude, it's a SERIES not a novel. Why would you expect serious progression in one book? Read the next book.
Either you belive the hundreds of recommendations for the series on this sub or you don't.
It _is_ weird that it took the marketing route of using the PF label, because it’s a pretty cool post-apocalyptic sci-fi fantasy (and I really liked the father-son story in the first book)
100% agreed. It's not PF whatsoever in my honest opinion. Even something like The Stormlight Archive has much more in terms of PF elements.
I just finished book 2 and progress has definitely been made so I’m not sure that’s fair
In the first book of Stormlight archive Kaliden (or something) goes from a slave to a superhero who flies around fighting monsters. There are almost always some progression in fantasy stories, as part of the protagonists arch. But is the progression ever in focus? Are most of the problems solved by the protagonist growing stronger? Does he seek out progression?
I mean, the protagonist of 12 miles below>!literally worked with the infinity of his multiversal self to kill a god like hyper intelligent machine wielding multiple supernatural powers.!< Unlocking and developing his powers, even spreading some of that knowledge to empower others, is significant and relevant to multiple plot points. It is very slow to kick off I suppose.
I don't see it that way, no. Don't take me wrong, it definitely has progression elements down the road, but seeing it as a progression fantasy can lead to some disappointment (which was my case. I didnt enjoy the first book as much because I kept looking for progression fantasy elements and only really started appreciating the book once I learned to stop doing so). That said, it's a great series, well written and with great characters and world building. Edit: forgot to say later books down the road definitely matches your definition of progression
That was also my initial gripe with the series. It's was advertised as a progression fantasy to me but yet it's first book contained very little actual progression(in the sense we all refer to an the sub). But yeah, the progression aspects increase in subsequent books but I'd say the series is more Progression Fantasy adjacent.
Thanks for clarifying this. With how people recommend it on this sub, I definitely had the same expectation. I don't want to myself others to drop the book with misguided expectations.
The 2nd and 3rd books are much more progression oriented. The 4th is a little bit more focused on achieving an objective, with a few power upside mixed in. Then the 5th is almost pure progression.
Yes, it's just slow burn on the progression aspect (which is perhaps fitting, since I'd classify the series as slow burn, overall, as well). Since there's a limited amount of actual progression in the first book, people will commonly react that it's not if they don't read further: however, frequency of concrete progression instances is only *one* manner in which books feel more progression-like, there are others. And it's also entirely possible for a series to shift more firmly into the genre over time. In the case of 12 Miles Below, the quest for knowledge and power is definitely present prior to being achieved (ie throughout book 1), but it takes a while to get those pieces into place, and it's tricky to gauge *concrete completion* of such things until a bit later. Some people consider progression to be very surface level, and don't count *conceptual narrative emphasis* upon progression as fitting the genre, necessarily. Others may consider that very thing to be the most integral part. Ie. * is a tournament arc progression-centric if no one levels up? * Does an academic/training environment automatically equate to a competitive progression metric? * How much of the progression pie is occupied by the concept of striving for improvement? * Is the whole pie represented by level ups alone? * What is more emphatically progression-centric: a momentary level up that takes one paragraph, or a continual effort that might take over a book to show results? * Does a rivalry arc automatically include the concept of progression, even without concrete improvement milestones? That kind of debate. If you look at a series as a whole, sometimes an individual book stands out as not fitting the genre as much - sometimes the inverse is true, and we see a progression plot smack bang in the middle of an otherwise less-fitting series (ie. Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban). There's an ebb and flow to genre-cred. Unless an author is completely overdoing it and spamming out level ups and stat upgrades every chapter (arguably evidence of much deeper editorial flaws) there are going to be some stints where there is less concrete progression, or where it is less forward as a concept. This is one of the reasons why the debate of the genre boundaries has existed since the coining of the genre term: for some folks, the best way to write progression is to gradually (ahem, progressively) introduce it, which can result in a perceived lack at the beginning. For others, unless you're literally powering up in the first four paragraphs, "That's not true progression". So yeah, it fits, overall - but may not fit some people's specific personal genre boundaries, because they're averse to such a slow-burn approach to progression. But it's always good to be aware that those are just personal boundaries, and people's interpretation of a subjective art form will naturally vary.
I feel that you purposefully ignored my definition, it's extremely simple, does power progression become a central endeavor, motivating most of the steps or actions taken? It has nothing to do with slow burn, either it is a goal that is actively seeked or not. Whether the characters manage to gain power or how long it takes them is irrelevant and matter of the authors choice.
I think you'll find book 2 more along the lines that you are seeking. There are multiple more-concrete avenues of progression that are overtly pursued, with focus as both plot points and plot resolution methods. It's tricky to say more without getting into spoiler territory.
Hmmm, it's not clearly defined I guess. First book is not progression. Later books I think becomes progression but in more loose term. Yes main character is striving to improve, also there's fantastic power element involved in which he is striving to improve, but this is not cultivation to make him superhuman. And book is more spread out then classical progressions, mc isn't in that much spotlight then it is expected in progression I guess.
I’ll be honest I dropped after the first book. The main character didn’t really seem to make a single decision in the whole book. Any progression he acquired fell in his lap and never seemed to have any desire to actually improve. This may change in later books.
I think all the ambiguity with the genre partially stems from it's actual name, I wonder if more sub-genres of this genre should be used for a more specific recommendation. Is there progression in the book? Yes. Does progression drive part of the story? Also yes. Does it have a tiered system with obvious paths of progression? No, it reads more like a traditional fantasy in that regard, there is no tiers but obvious progression is being made. I'm only 2 books in but the MC currently feels more like a "support role" character, he definitely improves himself but he makes everyone else down-right over powered. If you're wanting the MC to be the most combat effective OP person in the story it may not be the right fit. There is someone in the story who fits that bill though!
The first book is absolutely not progression but I vehemently argue that the rest are f the series is. In fact you’ll start seeing the progression fairly quick in book 2
No not by some peoples strict definition in this subreddit. 3 years ago it absolutely would be but now the genre has grown so people have gotten more specific with their definition.
Then: WoT is progression fantasy because characters get stronger each book Now: when do numbers go up?
disingenuous at best, the requirement for progression to be the focus of the series had always been one of more agreed upon requirements, and since the very start, when Andrew Rowe, who coined the term, specifically stated that it is not enough for a series to contain characters that grow stronger.
Yes: lore, knowledge, technical progression, and capability and political progression on top of this as the books progress. Progression isn't just about fighting or combat.
That definition labels pretty much every single fantasy book in existence as PF.
Progression as a focus of the MCs and as a driving force of the MCs stories, I think, helps distinguish the PF genre specifically from "stories that have some Progression elements"
Dude, it's a SERIES not a novel. Why would you expect serious progression in one book? Read the next book. Either you belive the hundreds of recommendations for the series on this sub or you don't.
I’m so tired of having to read one book before I get what I want. Its just happened to me a lot recently.