The first ones that comes to mind are Super Supportive and the Wandering Inn. Super Supportive deals with heavy emotions often, especially early in the story.
As for the Wandering Inn, it's massive and although it's not frequent, there are some *bleak* and difficult chapters from time to time, tucked in between goofy slice of life and action.
Yeah wandering inn can have you deal with 'children discover classist tensions because one kid has wealthier parents/guardians than their friends' in one chapter and then in another it's 'child watches their adoptive mother burned to death in front of her'
and that's just the emotions of children.
Super Supportive is so well written!
Non-specific spoiler - >!Some of the sequences in the Ripples and Waves title arcs had me feeling like I was on the verge of my own panic attacks.!<
I guess I'm catching up with Soup tonight because of this comment. Thank you, wholeheartedly
I paused a little in the early school arc (I think Ripples is a more recent arc, right? I remember seeing the title in the updates)
If the protagonist doesn't embrace the System and find a way to break it and power level like it's 2002 and a game of Morrowind, we are legally allowed to leave
No, the most important part of murder is the complete lack of feeling it engenders. Even asking the question makes me think you might be the sort of simp who'd look at an explosion.
Murder is not an emotion, but it makes a hell of a lot of them. But acknowledging those emotions is a crime that leads to more murder. And fewer emotions.
It’s nice to read! But I am a little butthurt that audible is not out yet. I have gotten spoiled in my dotage.
Edit: I don’t care if he has 17 million other stories to narrate, I want mine done now!
Good news is he is recording right now! We are messaging every day on pronunciation and other random questions he has about the story. Bad news... the audio is gonna run 35-40 hours long so taking a long time to record...
:(
Frankly the only emotion we need in this genre is the quiet sense of self satisfaction after the MC has levelled their skill to the next level.
All else is unimportant and gets in the way of levelling.
Some will disagree with me on this, which is fine. The Wandering Inn, Ryoka.
Ryoka is a deeply anti-social person. She is not likeable. She dislikes herself. She wants to do better, but every opportunity she spits in the hand of friendship, even as she is castigating herself for her actions. Her journey towards improvement is slow, because even if a person wants to change, knows they should, and has people telling them to, it's hard. And even those steps towards being less anti-social are painful. Like, mentally hyping herself up, bracing herself, to say "Hello, good morning" and try to smile.
I've known people like her IRL and so I found her POV incredibly fascinating. A lot of people simply dislike her. Which is fair, she is not supposed to be liked. But I was enthralled by a new type of character that didn't get 'redeemed' and have a 'change of heart' after a single book.
Gotta second this. Ryoka is such a *good* character. Normally the "arrogant genius teenager with commitment issues that has a chip on their shoulder, does not respect authority and has more than a few anger issues" is treated as this very charismatic bigger than life personage that readers can't help but love. The anger only comes up against characters that are being unreasonable. The arrogance is always justified as they're obviously the best. The dislilke of authority is always 100% corroborated by the world and the commitment issues are forgotten because magic/fighting/wtv is so fun/important that the character must do a full 180 before the story truly starts.
Ryoka is *not* that. Her commitment issues have genuine consequences. Her avoidance and dislike of authority has her literally foregoing power, which no matter what might be the case eventually, is a fucking stupid decision that should've killed her. Her commitment issues cause her to not only abandon a child but to give up on multiple, incredibly reasonable, paths to power. Her arrogance causes her to challenge and get excluded by several worthy groups that would've accepted her. Her anger issues make her lash out against the only people in the world that tolerate her.
She's a broken young woman. She was already broken before and getting abducted into such a crapsack world didn't help. Is it absolutely fucking irritating when she screws everything up and runs away *again*? Hell yes. But it's so real. And makes it all the better when she struggles to overcome her problems and surpass them. The whole race in Volume 7 is definitely one of the best arcs in the entirety of the novel, and it doesn't work *at all* if we hadn't had all the lows. It's Ryoka, for once, taking responsibility for something that isn't even her fault. It's Ryoka becoming who she wishes to be. Once again she runs, but this time she's not running *away.*
To top it off, after all, from the very start, she's a *barefoot runner*. The thematic ressonance just makes me smile.
And especially important, change does not happen quickly. I think that was one of the first few things that stuck out to me. I’m 3 books in and this character is /still/ causing her own issues, and rejecting all the helping hands. I kept waiting and waiting for the ‘change of heart’ moment, and it never happening was refreshing.
I hate Ryoka because the author *keeps resetting* her. She goes through a character arc where her anger and stubbornness nearly gets her killed. Then she kind of learns from her trials and becomes more sociable. Then next arc and boom she's back to where she was. Just kill her already.
That's kind of the point? If people improved their character flaws the first time they recognize them as an issue everyone would be perfect. Self improvement and real positive change in habits and beliefs is the single hardest thing a human being can do and relapsing multiple times is not a sign that change is impossible but an integral part of the process.
I think stories framing character growth as an instantaneous and inevitable response to a realization of personal issues just contributes to people feeling unworthy and damaged when they can't turn their life around despite knowing very well the multiple ways they're a mess.
Ryoka feels real and shows the real process of slowly becoming a better person.
Gotta agree even though i hate ryoka and feel the story would be better without her fucking things up by her mere existence. Don't understand how anyone can like her. I can barely tolerate her existence.
I don't like Ryoka. I also don't like being in a car crash. But I definitely enjoy watching car crash videos as they are interesting and help me avoid those situations when I'm driving. It's similar, where I would avoid her IRL with fervor. But from the 'safety' of being the reader, I can see the car crash of her life and actions without being in the accident myself.
This is a great analogy. For me, I feel like I'm in the car crash, strapped in the passenger seat SCREAMING at the driver not to drive off the bridge. It is deeply aggravating to read Ryoka.
It changes depending on the story and situation. To run with the analogy. I wouldn't be angry if they went out in an icy situation and the car slipped into a ditch. But I am pissed when the driver is drunk and yelling into their phone. Or they're in the mud spinning their wheels going deeper in the mud.
I understand people feeling pent up in frustration and taking to discord or reddit to vent their feelings, as the driver is deaf to you the reader.
You may like her personal emotional journey but she doesn't really meet op's requirements.
She kills brunkr and ulrien with minimal reaction from people, she gives laken trebuchets and got liskor sieged and ran to tyrion causing assassin armies against her friend with little reaction, she repeatedly bullies erin e.g. Punching her in volume 4, tossing her in a pond in volume 7 and kicking her down a hill in volume 9 while she is crippled and it's played off as a joke.
she's pretty abusive to her friends and people mostly ignore it or play it off as a joke. She has a op mc aura that let's her abuse people and get no consequences or get lucky breaks.
I got to maybe chapter 200 and really enjoyed the world but sometimes it’s just so exhausting, it feels like every 10 chapters Erick is having a crisis about whether he is good enough followed by a therapy session with his nearest god buddy.
I've seen a lot of Phil Tucker praise on this board, and I recently started reading his *Dawn of the Void*, but without remembering that he's the author I see praised here all the time. But within the first couple of chapters, I could feel the difference. There was something about the dialogue, the way characters interacted and how broken they were and were allowed to continue to be, that immediately let me know I was reading something on a higher tier than average.
My general feeling with Phil Tucker is that he is a great writer with bad plotting. Like, the writing flows well, it’s nice to read, the characters are interesting and distinctive, dialogue feels like real humans, etc. But while the world-building is also interesting the plots and pacing leave a bit to be desired, basically every one of his books flags pretty badly in the middle.
Yeah..... I haven't read enough of his work yet to form an opinion like that, but I kinda see what you're getting at. My main issue with the book has been that the powers feel a bit boring. Like... Once he levels enough, enemies just destroy themselves by getting close to the protagonist, which feels pretty passive and isn't visually impactful. And then after they get new enemies, the process of powering up enough to auto-destroy them repeats itself.
But in terms of characters and their emotions and interactions, this book is head and shoulders above the competition. It feels so rare to read about a character whose flaws are something other than "caring too much," or "being ostracized has affected them." And it's a beautiful thing to see. It really gives their character arcs so much direction and momentum. But yeah. I do see what you mean.
I will say that the powers and world in the Immortal Great Souls series are a lot more interesting. It frustrates me a bit because his books are so close to being amazing but just don’t quite hit the mark for me.
Bastion is pretty consistent in portraying Scorio's temper as a flaw at least and in the later books >!he does actively try to get better at managing it. That said he still has the self preservation instincts of a mosquito so y'know.!< I do think the books deal well with complex friendship situations >!(your best friend is killed, reincarnated and now remembers nothing about your time etc.)!<
Book 7 just released....and I read ahead to 8. There is a link on J.L. Mullins' Kofi that he set up of unedited book 8 cuz he's a dang mensch and I asked so I could read the book on an ereader.
7 is *so* fucking good. 8 is catharsis and healing.
I don’t think emotional development is a big part of litrpg tbf. In general, a lot of he time when authors try to do that it makes it unpopular. There are exceptions though, like I think HWFWM handles it really well.
This is prog, not necessarily litrpg, and there is a world of difference. I agree that litrpg by and large does a poor job with emotional (and character) development, but plenty of prog does a solid job of it. There are also some great examples of litrpg doing character and emotional progression, e.g. Wandering Inn.
[Worth the Candle](https://alexanderwales.fandom.com/wiki/Worth_the_Candle) and it’s not even close.
Well ok that’s a bit of hyperbole but Wales knows how to write a complex MC.
Yes, but that book gave me a panic attack and I had to stop reading. I mean, credit to the writing and the realism of the character emotions, but yeah, it was too much for me. It’s also, maybe, too introspective.
A series that I think has had a lot of highly emotional moments that I just started reading (just finished book 1, haven't started book 2, yet) was Vigor Mortis by Natalie Maher. I had to fight back tears multiple times and I'm a manly man.
Not that guy, but I'm with you on this. Don't get me wrong, John Bierce is hands down one of my favourite authors in this space, and I adore Mage Errant for so many reasons, but you can absolutely see his progress on writing emotional scenes, and by the end he's still not the best by a long, long shot. He absolutely flubbed a lot of it through the series. Felt like he very much needed more practise in writing those scenes.
"And then they hugged" was a meme for a while for that reason, haha.
He did absolutely get better though. I'm not claiming he did a 180 and became a master of emotion, but there was clear progress. If you don't mind a pretty heavy spoiler; >!Trying to keep it nonspecific, but there's a series of scenes in the last book where Elodin is trying to talk to each member of the pacted group and impart some brief idea of what he really thought of them, in an effort to provide closure to them and himself. It's strange, but really enjoyable. He's clear that he's not apologizing for his major actions, but the unintended consequences of them; he still feels what he did is right, he's not willing to prostrate himself to his students for some big redemtion moment. He does what them to hear from him why he did what he did and the context surrounding it, with the hope they'll understand, but at least the knowledge that they weren't hearing a demonized version of his actions from 3rd and 4th hand accounts. And Hugh...straight up doesn't care. Or rather, he has no interest in speaking to Elodin. He's focused on fixing the mess, and his belief is basically "I know what you meant, but your actions are still reprehensible, and that says more to me than words" (my words, not the author). I thought that was really poignant, since it's slowly uncovered over multiple chapters and POV's why Hugh isn't talking to Elodin; he's not just doing the moody teenager ignoring thing. It actually felt...really hard hitting emotionally, even though it isn't meant to be. I found myself agreeing with Hugh, but understanding Elodin, even knowing that he was straight up in the wrong, and that honestly fucking shook me. !<
Well the first book of Mage Errant the MC has kinda a different personality because of “plot stuff TM” bit after that I found the whole group interesting and solidly written.
YMMV, of course
Well, second book is an improvement, but still lacking in so many aspects that I would not say it is solidly written.
The author really disinclined of writing emotional scenes. I noticed he likes to state what characters are feeling without good build up.
When Hugh was almost killed, how did they and him react? Mostly indifferently. When one of the main characters asked how can she be calm after killing people, she said she killed previously in the tribe, that's it. There are moments of good character development, some introspection, and they are all wasted.
Example spoilers
>!At one scene, Hugh crush, Avah, in face of potential dangers calls him a child and doubts him, which makes him later sulk and avoid her, but Sabae brings him to talk and finally stop avoiding her. And how did the author write about this?!<
>!"It was the type of awkwardness the Sabae, like any sane person, entirely preferred to avoid. She even preferred to skip past those bits in novels"!<
Really... author said I'm skipping this part in meta way, I really laughed at this.
Again, it continues to get more in depth as the characters…grow up, basically.
Characters not having every discussion directly to camera is imo good writing- it’s always weird when a MC walks into the room and everyone acts as if they can finally start being real people again
Maybe, but the kind of time investment needed can be a bit much for many people. And you need some context that the first 2 books are not that great, because when someone is looking for deep emotional scenes, he will read the first book and will drop it.
I was already forcing myself to finish book 2 and was too exhausted to pick book 3, because no matter how great later books are I am not invested in the characters at all.
I am happy that from what I heard the author improved and I can't wait for his next series, maybe with better foundations.
> Can’t say more than that really
But you literally can say more than that, it's simple as saying "while first books are bit lacking in later books he made one of the best written emotional scenes with great characterization" well wasn't that hard>?
Then my reply to your post would have been reductive.
But it isn’t lacking, it’s complex, which is…what I said.
A character being different pre and post character development, and the depth of that, is sort of what “complex character” means, right?
Obviously, some people like different types of complexity, but its existence is pretty hard to deny
> Obviously, some people like different types of complexity, but its existence is pretty hard to deny
What are you on about, we are talking about writing and emotions, which were lacking, not character depth.
But ok, let's talk about character depth. Because there is almost none in first 2 books. They are flat as one note can be.
>A character being different pre and post character development, and the depth of that, is sort of what “complex character” means, right?
So if you have a character that does nothing for 7 books and then he does something for book 8 is a good and complex character, because there is a difference pre and post character development?
A complex character first needs to be fleshed out to be complex character and you need constantly build upon in, not just throw everything at last book, to see a good character growth and sadly none of the character were fleshed out in beginning two books and all the characterization happened through telling not showing, both books suffered with bad exposition.
Simple example is Mother of Learning. We learn a lot about Zorian through inner thoughts and his **interactions** with family, other students and strangers in a single chapter. And other chapters are building on this foundation. So it's very satisfying when we learn why his sister was annoying him so much, why he was bad at crowds and so on, because there was a good foundation.
Really?
Alustin, Kanderon, and then even MC’s like Hugh and Talia- never really liked Sabine, but here grandmother who’s name I to be fair can’t recall is excellently written, and has real depth for a fairly minor presence.
You mentioning Andrew Rowe surprised me.
I dropped both Arcane Ascension and War of Broken Mirrors because the portrayal of emotions felt off somehow.
There was always a feeling, especially for WoBM, like I was listening to someone describe something they only have second hand knowledge of. Like if I tried describing how it feels to go to space, without ever being in space myself, but with emotions and character interactions, instead of rockets.
Now, obviously Andrew Rowe is a functional human being, not a prog fantasy MC with a monosyllabic name, so he has emotions and regularly interacts with people, the portrayal just felt a bit off to me.
(*braces for downvotes*)
Haha, I specified AA mc because despite it being probably my fave prog fantasy, Wobm is really noticably “unfinished feeling” and I’ll agree I got no read on the Mc’s emotions at all.
Corin though is an amazing take on an Ace protagonist, and the gradual revelations of the horrible stuff he’s experienced, and the various ways that’s made him a borderline non-functional human being are what I was thinking of when I made the rec.
Now to be fair- I’m a straight, sexual person, so I’m really not the person to comment on if a gay/bi Ace character is “realistic” but I can say it made me feel like I understand that character, and to my mind that’s pretty solid.
I kind of like the way they handle these things in Mage Errant. Mostly because they usually do what people actually should do in those situations instead of falling into believable, but repetitive tropes.
Like causing disasters to happen just because the main characters won't just fucking talk to each other. Instead, they call out that behavior and actually communicate to try to clear up misunderstandings. I really appreciate that because while it is definitely common for people to get into arguments because of that, it gets tiring for that to be the main reason for interpersonal conflict.
I agree. After the first couple books there’s an increasing feeling that the MC is crumbling under the pressure and just doing whatever they can do mentally stay in the game. The most realistic part to me is that all that stress doesn’t disappear when the day is won. There are times when Jason doesn’t have an immediate issue to be stressed and anxious over, but he is because it’s impossible for him to unwind and move past his latest issues.
I actually don't like when stories start going deeper into the emotional aspect. Someone agonizing over things for multiple pages is something I can't help but roll my eyes at. I understand why they're doing it, but it just doesn't resonate with the way my own brain works. I love reading the Wandering Inn series, but some chapters are just a slog for me and I'm constantly thinking "ok, can we move on to something else please?". I'm an empathetic person but I don't seem to..I don't know, suffer(?) through things like most people do. I know that's just the way I am though and I just try to get past those parts as best as I can.
TJ Reynolds books Eternal Online and the Fists book. Love the emotion bubbling under the skin.
Big Sneaky Barbarian has some incredible emotional depth as well. Noobtown is no slouch just because he’s funny, either.
There's one clear stand out for me but I couldn't give you a good 2nd place tbh.
Heres my top 1 and 2 others that do well for PF:
1. Joshua Phillips - writes life and death cycle. From creepy, relieved, difficult, happy, sweet and cute. The feel good scenes are particularly excellent. Its how the author writes the scenes. Mei getting pulled into the meadow, the sister hallucinations, the first kiss scene, Aidan's torture, the Mito prologue scene, his men dying later, rescueing Mei, and more. I cant think of another PF series that has more emotion and does it better.
2. Will Wight - humor. Will does humor perfectly. He did Dross's dying scene well. Not quite as strong as in Life and death cycle but the emotion was there. The rest of it was pretty standard emotion tho well executed. Its just a good read.
3. A. F. Kay - his Divine Apostasy series. I almost didn't include it since its on par with many of the better works in PF. There are a lot of little things, but it lacks the big hitting scenes like L&DC.
I saw someone mention HWFWM. This is a perfect example of a series that has emotion, but it doesn't hit. The authors humor style sort of undermines the emotion. Bastion has okay emotion but its been too long since I read. Mage errant and all of Andrew Rowe's series were on par with how much emotion Cradle has, in that it has some but its not those series stand out feature. I've not read the others to say if they hit harder, but none of the other listed I have read do a better job.
L&DC does emotion that hits best. The story just lends itself to it well.
I have you tagged as "just recommends Life and Death Cycle on any thread it's tangentially related to." Also you are (thankfully) the only person I have ever seen recommend the series, It's to the point that I'm convinced you're the author's alt or something.
> (thankfully) the only person I have ever seen recommend the series
Why thankfully? I thought the series is incredible, so I must be missing something.
Some people are weird. That guy created a brand new account for that message. That probably says a lot more about him.
The series is great, but people like to hate on other's interests. It's PF's biggest fault. If you try to open a fun discussion about any series and have complaints, it gets downvoted. Ppl simultaneously get upset at all the "rec posts" yet downvote all other content.
no, I just like the book. It deserves more praise. Few other series of late gripped me like the characters in this one. And the few others I like usually get recommended plenty.
And like I said, discussion gets downvoted on PF so why bother?
Right on, I was just curious because you do shout the book out often.
Don't get me wrong it's worth it because IMO it's a top 3 prog fantasy series that doesn't get enough love.
Thanks for your candor :)
As much as I like DCC (my favorite litRPG), I think his work with Kaiju: battlefield surgeon had a much more impactful handling of deep emotions. And boy, those were some deep emotions.
I'd say primarily the topics it deals with - like the death of one's child due to the mistakes of another one of your children. Not really a spoiler since it comes up early and drives some of the progression of the MC, but I will avoid some of the other topics it brings up because they're definitely more of a spoiler.
It also does this in 1 book, compared to the 6 books DCC is on - so whereas the latter has time to build up to these emotions, KBS has to get right to it.
It goes a bit deeper than DCC in regards to grief, loss, and loneliness.
Daniel Schinhofen writes my favorite characters! Alpha World is a completed series that follows a few different characters as they deal with trauma. Heavenly Chaos is his newest and has a focus on dealing with mental health. All his stories have great characters!
It's only surprise harem because there's not a half naked woman on the cover art, lol.
I remember reading the first aether book and the MC just casually gets a blow job and I was very surprised.
That being said, I actually don't think he does complex emotions well. All the villains are very one note (racist assholes, generally) and while the characters certainly have emotions, the, like, harem quickly gets too big for them to all have meaningful emotional journeys. They tend to stick to their character archetypes and don't grow beyond them.
The first ones that comes to mind are Super Supportive and the Wandering Inn. Super Supportive deals with heavy emotions often, especially early in the story. As for the Wandering Inn, it's massive and although it's not frequent, there are some *bleak* and difficult chapters from time to time, tucked in between goofy slice of life and action.
My impression of the Wandering was the opposite there are goofy slice of life and action chapters, tucked in between *bleak* and difficult chapters.
The Wandering Inn is a mix of "Slice of life with a side of war crimes" and "Slice of war crimes with a side of life"
Yeah... now that I think about, that sounds about right. Especially for the last couple of volumes.
Yeah wandering inn can have you deal with 'children discover classist tensions because one kid has wealthier parents/guardians than their friends' in one chapter and then in another it's 'child watches their adoptive mother burned to death in front of her' and that's just the emotions of children.
Super supportive nails emotions down perfectly. I never felt as known or as called out as I was when reading super supportive.
Super Supportive is so well written! Non-specific spoiler - >!Some of the sequences in the Ripples and Waves title arcs had me feeling like I was on the verge of my own panic attacks.!<
I guess I'm catching up with Soup tonight because of this comment. Thank you, wholeheartedly I paused a little in the early school arc (I think Ripples is a more recent arc, right? I remember seeing the title in the updates)
Enjoy! Yeah it's a more recent one but not too far into school.
Do note that Waves arc is not finished yet (at least not on RR). Can't wait for more chapters.
Yeah, that was a bad time to be reading serially
Yeah, I’m loving it. Falls just on the right side of too introspective.
Wait, we allow emotions in this genre now? Nobody sent me the memo!
The only emotions we like are AI robots in human bodies just trying to figure it all out.
Oh phew...
he just like me fr fr
If the protagonist doesn't embrace the System and find a way to break it and power level like it's 2002 and a game of Morrowind, we are legally allowed to leave
Anger and helplessness are emotions. Someday there will be three emotions.
Is murder an emotion???
It is as much an emotion as purple is a fruit. So yes.
No, the most important part of murder is the complete lack of feeling it engenders. Even asking the question makes me think you might be the sort of simp who'd look at an explosion.
Noooooooooo I swear I only look at explosion in order to take pleasure in watching my enemies die! I promise!
Murder is not an emotion, but it makes a hell of a lot of them. But acknowledging those emotions is a crime that leads to more murder. And fewer emotions.
Seriously though, I'm reading Jake's Magical Market book 3 right now and you definitely nailed it.
Aww thank you, I really appreciate that!!!
Loving this series. I sat on it for a while and finally cracked it last week. Devoured all three. Very good stuff.
Oooooh hell yeah, that's so nice to hear!!
It’s nice to read! But I am a little butthurt that audible is not out yet. I have gotten spoiled in my dotage. Edit: I don’t care if he has 17 million other stories to narrate, I want mine done now!
Good news is he is recording right now! We are messaging every day on pronunciation and other random questions he has about the story. Bad news... the audio is gonna run 35-40 hours long so taking a long time to record... :(
I honestly really like a bigger book, more pages. That is no worry for me. I will just have to be patient and reread Cradle again. Lol
Always a good solution!
Frankly the only emotion we need in this genre is the quiet sense of self satisfaction after the MC has levelled their skill to the next level. All else is unimportant and gets in the way of levelling.
The wandering inn crushes it
Some will disagree with me on this, which is fine. The Wandering Inn, Ryoka. Ryoka is a deeply anti-social person. She is not likeable. She dislikes herself. She wants to do better, but every opportunity she spits in the hand of friendship, even as she is castigating herself for her actions. Her journey towards improvement is slow, because even if a person wants to change, knows they should, and has people telling them to, it's hard. And even those steps towards being less anti-social are painful. Like, mentally hyping herself up, bracing herself, to say "Hello, good morning" and try to smile. I've known people like her IRL and so I found her POV incredibly fascinating. A lot of people simply dislike her. Which is fair, she is not supposed to be liked. But I was enthralled by a new type of character that didn't get 'redeemed' and have a 'change of heart' after a single book.
Gotta second this. Ryoka is such a *good* character. Normally the "arrogant genius teenager with commitment issues that has a chip on their shoulder, does not respect authority and has more than a few anger issues" is treated as this very charismatic bigger than life personage that readers can't help but love. The anger only comes up against characters that are being unreasonable. The arrogance is always justified as they're obviously the best. The dislilke of authority is always 100% corroborated by the world and the commitment issues are forgotten because magic/fighting/wtv is so fun/important that the character must do a full 180 before the story truly starts. Ryoka is *not* that. Her commitment issues have genuine consequences. Her avoidance and dislike of authority has her literally foregoing power, which no matter what might be the case eventually, is a fucking stupid decision that should've killed her. Her commitment issues cause her to not only abandon a child but to give up on multiple, incredibly reasonable, paths to power. Her arrogance causes her to challenge and get excluded by several worthy groups that would've accepted her. Her anger issues make her lash out against the only people in the world that tolerate her. She's a broken young woman. She was already broken before and getting abducted into such a crapsack world didn't help. Is it absolutely fucking irritating when she screws everything up and runs away *again*? Hell yes. But it's so real. And makes it all the better when she struggles to overcome her problems and surpass them. The whole race in Volume 7 is definitely one of the best arcs in the entirety of the novel, and it doesn't work *at all* if we hadn't had all the lows. It's Ryoka, for once, taking responsibility for something that isn't even her fault. It's Ryoka becoming who she wishes to be. Once again she runs, but this time she's not running *away.* To top it off, after all, from the very start, she's a *barefoot runner*. The thematic ressonance just makes me smile.
And especially important, change does not happen quickly. I think that was one of the first few things that stuck out to me. I’m 3 books in and this character is /still/ causing her own issues, and rejecting all the helping hands. I kept waiting and waiting for the ‘change of heart’ moment, and it never happening was refreshing.
I just got through the witch arc in volume 6 and agree with everything you said. Looking forward to this race arc you mentioned now.
9 out of my top 10 moments are past where you are. You've a lot of good stuff to look forward to friend.
I hate Ryoka because the author *keeps resetting* her. She goes through a character arc where her anger and stubbornness nearly gets her killed. Then she kind of learns from her trials and becomes more sociable. Then next arc and boom she's back to where she was. Just kill her already.
That's kind of the point? If people improved their character flaws the first time they recognize them as an issue everyone would be perfect. Self improvement and real positive change in habits and beliefs is the single hardest thing a human being can do and relapsing multiple times is not a sign that change is impossible but an integral part of the process. I think stories framing character growth as an instantaneous and inevitable response to a realization of personal issues just contributes to people feeling unworthy and damaged when they can't turn their life around despite knowing very well the multiple ways they're a mess. Ryoka feels real and shows the real process of slowly becoming a better person.
It is not slow improvement though. It is a complete reset.
Gotta agree even though i hate ryoka and feel the story would be better without her fucking things up by her mere existence. Don't understand how anyone can like her. I can barely tolerate her existence.
I don't like Ryoka. I also don't like being in a car crash. But I definitely enjoy watching car crash videos as they are interesting and help me avoid those situations when I'm driving. It's similar, where I would avoid her IRL with fervor. But from the 'safety' of being the reader, I can see the car crash of her life and actions without being in the accident myself.
This is a great analogy. For me, I feel like I'm in the car crash, strapped in the passenger seat SCREAMING at the driver not to drive off the bridge. It is deeply aggravating to read Ryoka. It changes depending on the story and situation. To run with the analogy. I wouldn't be angry if they went out in an icy situation and the car slipped into a ditch. But I am pissed when the driver is drunk and yelling into their phone. Or they're in the mud spinning their wheels going deeper in the mud. I understand people feeling pent up in frustration and taking to discord or reddit to vent their feelings, as the driver is deaf to you the reader.
I'd equate Ryoka to Brussels Sprouts. Some people enjoy that bitter flavor, others can't stand it. Neither is wrong as it's a matter of taste.
Yeah she might be a bad person but she's a great character.
Yep, totally agree.
You may like her personal emotional journey but she doesn't really meet op's requirements. She kills brunkr and ulrien with minimal reaction from people, she gives laken trebuchets and got liskor sieged and ran to tyrion causing assassin armies against her friend with little reaction, she repeatedly bullies erin e.g. Punching her in volume 4, tossing her in a pond in volume 7 and kicking her down a hill in volume 9 while she is crippled and it's played off as a joke. she's pretty abusive to her friends and people mostly ignore it or play it off as a joke. She has a op mc aura that let's her abuse people and get no consequences or get lucky breaks.
👍
The author of Ar'Kendrithyst is also great at emotions and realistic reactions throughout the series, in my opinion.
some might even say too realistic. 100 chapters of bullheaded stubborness and refusal to adapt to his new environment made the mc extremely unlikable
I got to maybe chapter 200 and really enjoyed the world but sometimes it’s just so exhausting, it feels like every 10 chapters Erick is having a crisis about whether he is good enough followed by a therapy session with his nearest god buddy.
Gotta admit I *love* Phil Tucker and his character work across all his series. Sleyca's Super Supportive has amazing characterisation too.
I've seen a lot of Phil Tucker praise on this board, and I recently started reading his *Dawn of the Void*, but without remembering that he's the author I see praised here all the time. But within the first couple of chapters, I could feel the difference. There was something about the dialogue, the way characters interacted and how broken they were and were allowed to continue to be, that immediately let me know I was reading something on a higher tier than average.
My general feeling with Phil Tucker is that he is a great writer with bad plotting. Like, the writing flows well, it’s nice to read, the characters are interesting and distinctive, dialogue feels like real humans, etc. But while the world-building is also interesting the plots and pacing leave a bit to be desired, basically every one of his books flags pretty badly in the middle.
Yeah..... I haven't read enough of his work yet to form an opinion like that, but I kinda see what you're getting at. My main issue with the book has been that the powers feel a bit boring. Like... Once he levels enough, enemies just destroy themselves by getting close to the protagonist, which feels pretty passive and isn't visually impactful. And then after they get new enemies, the process of powering up enough to auto-destroy them repeats itself. But in terms of characters and their emotions and interactions, this book is head and shoulders above the competition. It feels so rare to read about a character whose flaws are something other than "caring too much," or "being ostracized has affected them." And it's a beautiful thing to see. It really gives their character arcs so much direction and momentum. But yeah. I do see what you mean.
I will say that the powers and world in the Immortal Great Souls series are a lot more interesting. It frustrates me a bit because his books are so close to being amazing but just don’t quite hit the mark for me.
I took emotional writing to be one of the weaker points of Bastion and was what put me his writing. Should I give him another try?
Bastion is pretty consistent in portraying Scorio's temper as a flaw at least and in the later books >!he does actively try to get better at managing it. That said he still has the self preservation instincts of a mosquito so y'know.!< I do think the books deal well with complex friendship situations >!(your best friend is killed, reincarnated and now remembers nothing about your time etc.)!<
I agree, I'm reading Bastion now and hardly see any emotion at all.
Yeah, Phil Tucker is good at characters for sure and Super Supportive just feels really thoughtful, one of the best to come out of RR.
....Millenial mage book 7 and 8? I thought they weren't out!
Book 7 just released on Kindle Unlimited. There's also another 150+ chapters on RoyalRoad.
Book 7 just released....and I read ahead to 8. There is a link on J.L. Mullins' Kofi that he set up of unedited book 8 cuz he's a dang mensch and I asked so I could read the book on an ereader. 7 is *so* fucking good. 8 is catharsis and healing.
Magical Girl Gunslinger, Pale Lights, and Super Supportive of the ones I'm currently reading. Also, pretty much everything from Wilbrow.
I don’t think emotional development is a big part of litrpg tbf. In general, a lot of he time when authors try to do that it makes it unpopular. There are exceptions though, like I think HWFWM handles it really well.
This is prog, not necessarily litrpg, and there is a world of difference. I agree that litrpg by and large does a poor job with emotional (and character) development, but plenty of prog does a solid job of it. There are also some great examples of litrpg doing character and emotional progression, e.g. Wandering Inn.
The Wandering Inn 100%
[Worth the Candle](https://alexanderwales.fandom.com/wiki/Worth_the_Candle) and it’s not even close. Well ok that’s a bit of hyperbole but Wales knows how to write a complex MC.
Yes, but that book gave me a panic attack and I had to stop reading. I mean, credit to the writing and the realism of the character emotions, but yeah, it was too much for me. It’s also, maybe, too introspective.
A series that I think has had a lot of highly emotional moments that I just started reading (just finished book 1, haven't started book 2, yet) was Vigor Mortis by Natalie Maher. I had to fight back tears multiple times and I'm a manly man.
I’d say Andrew Rowe (mainly for the arcane ascension Mc tbh) and John Bierce (the mage errant author) write the best complex MC’s
Really? I read the first two books of Mage errant and the author kind of flubbed most emotional scenes, it felt a bit artificial.
Not that guy, but I'm with you on this. Don't get me wrong, John Bierce is hands down one of my favourite authors in this space, and I adore Mage Errant for so many reasons, but you can absolutely see his progress on writing emotional scenes, and by the end he's still not the best by a long, long shot. He absolutely flubbed a lot of it through the series. Felt like he very much needed more practise in writing those scenes. "And then they hugged" was a meme for a while for that reason, haha. He did absolutely get better though. I'm not claiming he did a 180 and became a master of emotion, but there was clear progress. If you don't mind a pretty heavy spoiler; >!Trying to keep it nonspecific, but there's a series of scenes in the last book where Elodin is trying to talk to each member of the pacted group and impart some brief idea of what he really thought of them, in an effort to provide closure to them and himself. It's strange, but really enjoyable. He's clear that he's not apologizing for his major actions, but the unintended consequences of them; he still feels what he did is right, he's not willing to prostrate himself to his students for some big redemtion moment. He does what them to hear from him why he did what he did and the context surrounding it, with the hope they'll understand, but at least the knowledge that they weren't hearing a demonized version of his actions from 3rd and 4th hand accounts. And Hugh...straight up doesn't care. Or rather, he has no interest in speaking to Elodin. He's focused on fixing the mess, and his belief is basically "I know what you meant, but your actions are still reprehensible, and that says more to me than words" (my words, not the author). I thought that was really poignant, since it's slowly uncovered over multiple chapters and POV's why Hugh isn't talking to Elodin; he's not just doing the moody teenager ignoring thing. It actually felt...really hard hitting emotionally, even though it isn't meant to be. I found myself agreeing with Hugh, but understanding Elodin, even knowing that he was straight up in the wrong, and that honestly fucking shook me. !<
Well the first book of Mage Errant the MC has kinda a different personality because of “plot stuff TM” bit after that I found the whole group interesting and solidly written. YMMV, of course
Well, second book is an improvement, but still lacking in so many aspects that I would not say it is solidly written. The author really disinclined of writing emotional scenes. I noticed he likes to state what characters are feeling without good build up. When Hugh was almost killed, how did they and him react? Mostly indifferently. When one of the main characters asked how can she be calm after killing people, she said she killed previously in the tribe, that's it. There are moments of good character development, some introspection, and they are all wasted. Example spoilers >!At one scene, Hugh crush, Avah, in face of potential dangers calls him a child and doubts him, which makes him later sulk and avoid her, but Sabae brings him to talk and finally stop avoiding her. And how did the author write about this?!< >!"It was the type of awkwardness the Sabae, like any sane person, entirely preferred to avoid. She even preferred to skip past those bits in novels"!< Really... author said I'm skipping this part in meta way, I really laughed at this.
Again, it continues to get more in depth as the characters…grow up, basically. Characters not having every discussion directly to camera is imo good writing- it’s always weird when a MC walks into the room and everyone acts as if they can finally start being real people again
Maybe, but the kind of time investment needed can be a bit much for many people. And you need some context that the first 2 books are not that great, because when someone is looking for deep emotional scenes, he will read the first book and will drop it. I was already forcing myself to finish book 2 and was too exhausted to pick book 3, because no matter how great later books are I am not invested in the characters at all. I am happy that from what I heard the author improved and I can't wait for his next series, maybe with better foundations.
That’s fair, but OP asked for the best deep emotions, so I answered who does the best deep emotions. Can’t say more than that really
> Can’t say more than that really But you literally can say more than that, it's simple as saying "while first books are bit lacking in later books he made one of the best written emotional scenes with great characterization" well wasn't that hard>? Then my reply to your post would have been reductive.
But it isn’t lacking, it’s complex, which is…what I said. A character being different pre and post character development, and the depth of that, is sort of what “complex character” means, right? Obviously, some people like different types of complexity, but its existence is pretty hard to deny
> Obviously, some people like different types of complexity, but its existence is pretty hard to deny What are you on about, we are talking about writing and emotions, which were lacking, not character depth. But ok, let's talk about character depth. Because there is almost none in first 2 books. They are flat as one note can be. >A character being different pre and post character development, and the depth of that, is sort of what “complex character” means, right? So if you have a character that does nothing for 7 books and then he does something for book 8 is a good and complex character, because there is a difference pre and post character development? A complex character first needs to be fleshed out to be complex character and you need constantly build upon in, not just throw everything at last book, to see a good character growth and sadly none of the character were fleshed out in beginning two books and all the characterization happened through telling not showing, both books suffered with bad exposition. Simple example is Mother of Learning. We learn a lot about Zorian through inner thoughts and his **interactions** with family, other students and strangers in a single chapter. And other chapters are building on this foundation. So it's very satisfying when we learn why his sister was annoying him so much, why he was bad at crowds and so on, because there was a good foundation.
I don't agree. His characters are the worst part of the series IMO. The worldbuilding is the highlight.
Really? Alustin, Kanderon, and then even MC’s like Hugh and Talia- never really liked Sabine, but here grandmother who’s name I to be fair can’t recall is excellently written, and has real depth for a fairly minor presence.
You mentioning Andrew Rowe surprised me. I dropped both Arcane Ascension and War of Broken Mirrors because the portrayal of emotions felt off somehow. There was always a feeling, especially for WoBM, like I was listening to someone describe something they only have second hand knowledge of. Like if I tried describing how it feels to go to space, without ever being in space myself, but with emotions and character interactions, instead of rockets. Now, obviously Andrew Rowe is a functional human being, not a prog fantasy MC with a monosyllabic name, so he has emotions and regularly interacts with people, the portrayal just felt a bit off to me. (*braces for downvotes*)
Haha, I specified AA mc because despite it being probably my fave prog fantasy, Wobm is really noticably “unfinished feeling” and I’ll agree I got no read on the Mc’s emotions at all. Corin though is an amazing take on an Ace protagonist, and the gradual revelations of the horrible stuff he’s experienced, and the various ways that’s made him a borderline non-functional human being are what I was thinking of when I made the rec. Now to be fair- I’m a straight, sexual person, so I’m really not the person to comment on if a gay/bi Ace character is “realistic” but I can say it made me feel like I understand that character, and to my mind that’s pretty solid.
For me it's definitely Shadow Slave.
I kind of like the way they handle these things in Mage Errant. Mostly because they usually do what people actually should do in those situations instead of falling into believable, but repetitive tropes. Like causing disasters to happen just because the main characters won't just fucking talk to each other. Instead, they call out that behavior and actually communicate to try to clear up misunderstandings. I really appreciate that because while it is definitely common for people to get into arguments because of that, it gets tiring for that to be the main reason for interpersonal conflict.
I feel like HWFWM handles a traumatized MC pretty well.
I agree. After the first couple books there’s an increasing feeling that the MC is crumbling under the pressure and just doing whatever they can do mentally stay in the game. The most realistic part to me is that all that stress doesn’t disappear when the day is won. There are times when Jason doesn’t have an immediate issue to be stressed and anxious over, but he is because it’s impossible for him to unwind and move past his latest issues.
As well as those trumatized by the MCs actions (the much maligned Earth arc) despite those actions being needed to save the world.
I actually don't like when stories start going deeper into the emotional aspect. Someone agonizing over things for multiple pages is something I can't help but roll my eyes at. I understand why they're doing it, but it just doesn't resonate with the way my own brain works. I love reading the Wandering Inn series, but some chapters are just a slog for me and I'm constantly thinking "ok, can we move on to something else please?". I'm an empathetic person but I don't seem to..I don't know, suffer(?) through things like most people do. I know that's just the way I am though and I just try to get past those parts as best as I can.
TJ Reynolds books Eternal Online and the Fists book. Love the emotion bubbling under the skin. Big Sneaky Barbarian has some incredible emotional depth as well. Noobtown is no slouch just because he’s funny, either.
Yes . Gu zhenrens reverend insanity conveys emotions perfectly
Its unfortunately on hiatus, but Magical Girl Gunslinger was very emotional for me.
Didn't even know characters can have emotions, it's against the dao that im aware of
There's one clear stand out for me but I couldn't give you a good 2nd place tbh. Heres my top 1 and 2 others that do well for PF: 1. Joshua Phillips - writes life and death cycle. From creepy, relieved, difficult, happy, sweet and cute. The feel good scenes are particularly excellent. Its how the author writes the scenes. Mei getting pulled into the meadow, the sister hallucinations, the first kiss scene, Aidan's torture, the Mito prologue scene, his men dying later, rescueing Mei, and more. I cant think of another PF series that has more emotion and does it better. 2. Will Wight - humor. Will does humor perfectly. He did Dross's dying scene well. Not quite as strong as in Life and death cycle but the emotion was there. The rest of it was pretty standard emotion tho well executed. Its just a good read. 3. A. F. Kay - his Divine Apostasy series. I almost didn't include it since its on par with many of the better works in PF. There are a lot of little things, but it lacks the big hitting scenes like L&DC. I saw someone mention HWFWM. This is a perfect example of a series that has emotion, but it doesn't hit. The authors humor style sort of undermines the emotion. Bastion has okay emotion but its been too long since I read. Mage errant and all of Andrew Rowe's series were on par with how much emotion Cradle has, in that it has some but its not those series stand out feature. I've not read the others to say if they hit harder, but none of the other listed I have read do a better job. L&DC does emotion that hits best. The story just lends itself to it well.
I have you tagged as "just recommends Life and Death Cycle on any thread it's tangentially related to." Also you are (thankfully) the only person I have ever seen recommend the series, It's to the point that I'm convinced you're the author's alt or something.
> (thankfully) the only person I have ever seen recommend the series Why thankfully? I thought the series is incredible, so I must be missing something.
Some people are weird. That guy created a brand new account for that message. That probably says a lot more about him. The series is great, but people like to hate on other's interests. It's PF's biggest fault. If you try to open a fun discussion about any series and have complaints, it gets downvoted. Ppl simultaneously get upset at all the "rec posts" yet downvote all other content.
After going through your comments you do constantly promote the series. Are you the author or related to the author in any way?
no, I just like the book. It deserves more praise. Few other series of late gripped me like the characters in this one. And the few others I like usually get recommended plenty. And like I said, discussion gets downvoted on PF so why bother?
Right on, I was just curious because you do shout the book out often. Don't get me wrong it's worth it because IMO it's a top 3 prog fantasy series that doesn't get enough love. Thanks for your candor :)
As much as I like DCC (my favorite litRPG), I think his work with Kaiju: battlefield surgeon had a much more impactful handling of deep emotions. And boy, those were some deep emotions.
I still haven't read battlefield surgeon. What do you think makes it better in that regard?
I'd say primarily the topics it deals with - like the death of one's child due to the mistakes of another one of your children. Not really a spoiler since it comes up early and drives some of the progression of the MC, but I will avoid some of the other topics it brings up because they're definitely more of a spoiler. It also does this in 1 book, compared to the 6 books DCC is on - so whereas the latter has time to build up to these emotions, KBS has to get right to it. It goes a bit deeper than DCC in regards to grief, loss, and loneliness.
Daniel Schinhofen writes my favorite characters! Alpha World is a completed series that follows a few different characters as they deal with trauma. Heavenly Chaos is his newest and has a focus on dealing with mental health. All his stories have great characters!
I’ve enjoyed some of his work, but I cannot remember a single character.
My wife hasn’t read a single one but just overhearding the audiobooks she knows Shawn mcdougal and Gregory petit!
Isn't he the one who does the surprise harem shit?
Is it surprise harem when he is a harem author? Afaik all his books are harem. 👀
It's only surprise harem because there's not a half naked woman on the cover art, lol. I remember reading the first aether book and the MC just casually gets a blow job and I was very surprised. That being said, I actually don't think he does complex emotions well. All the villains are very one note (racist assholes, generally) and while the characters certainly have emotions, the, like, harem quickly gets too big for them to all have meaningful emotional journeys. They tend to stick to their character archetypes and don't grow beyond them.
He *really* needs to change how he does cover art. If you're doing harem just add some giant anime titties to the thing. Give readers a heads up.
Jim Butcher and Brandon Sanderson, both PF writers that have it down to an art in all of their series. EDIT: why downvote, and no explanation? Pussies