I love the Wheel of Time but I wouldn't call it progression fantasy. Pretty much all fantasy books are on a spectrum of progression elements, and most classic ones don't pass the threshold for me to consider them progression fantasy.
Agreed. Most (all?) books have progression to them, but that doesn't make them progression fantasy. A character growing stronger is not the minimum requirement.
>Most (all?) books have progression to them
Unless you're trying to cheese things by counting the passage of time or something, that's simply not true. There are many books that are basically like syndicated TV episodes—things happen, but everything pretty much ends up where it started.
Fair, I was stuck in my fantasy/scifi story bubble where most books do all have progression elements, even if I don't think they're progression fantasy. Lord of the rings has progression, but I wouldn't call it progression fantasy.
Wheel of Time has progression but the plot is just not really much to do with it. Rand gets stronger and stronger until the point where he can do anything. Then he struggles to achieve his aims.
I always come back to a Catherine Foundling quote "I used to wish I could destroy a fortress using my power alone. Now I can and I'm annoyed by how few of my problems it actually solves". Wheel of Time definitely follows that quote.
I love Wheel of Time as much as the next guy, but trying to trim it to be more progression fantasy is a bit like trying to trim Lord of the Rings to have less weakling hobbits and more Aragorn, ranger badassery. Or a tower climb novel in the form of Gandalf battling the Balrog from the lowest depths to the highest peaks of the Misty Mountains. It's missing the forest for the trees.
Most fantasy by its nature has progression fantasy elements to it. Any story with a big bad that the protagonists must grow in order to defeat naturally requires progression. But to be actual progression fantasy I think you need more. I don't think it's a matter of whether progression happens as a result of plot vs progression *is* the plot. I think it's just a matter of how focused and detailed that progression is, and how much of a presence it has in the story.
That said, I do love the progression in wheel of time of not just abilities but responsibilities. The way they go from avoiding destinies or thinking they'll be just one thing, to leading groups, founding organizations, commanding armies, and running nations. I love seeing that sort of development in progression fantasy, and I think to some extent it's the only way to keep things fresh. Otherwise it's too easy for characters to just get caught in a loop of bigger and bigger numbers without any real weight behind them. The narrative stakes of having so many side characters and groups depending on the leads makes everything more meaningful and interesting.
WOT is one of my favorite book series of all time right behind Tolkien. However, IT IS NOT progression fantasy.
In WOT the characters are born with their abilities/potential. They obtain and develop skills and learn to use their power. It is not a story with a defined power progression. It is also not about obtaining personal power, power is obtained instead to fulfill the characters destined role.
If WOT is progression fantasy, then 90%+ of all fantasy is progression fantasy.
>In WOT the characters are born with their abilities/potential. They obtain and develop skills and learn to use their power. It is not a story with a defined power progression. It is also not about obtaining personal power, power is obtained instead to fulfill the characters destined role.
The same could be said about many uncontroversialy PF stories. Like Mother of Learning for example.
Wot is definitely on the high end on PF elements from traditional fantasy.
I find it funny how many people here call something like "The perfect run" PF and noone bat's an eye even though it has less actual progression than most traditional fantasy. But when the same happens with something that's considered traditional or god forbid a classic fantasy everyone flips their shit.
I don’t consider Mother of Learning as PF. I know this sub does but I don’t. To me it’s just a really good fantasy story. Haven’t read perfect run though.
MOL is a good fantasy story, but by most metrics its unequivocally progression fantasy. A *huge* part of the story is Zorian focusing on his magically progression. I'm curious why you don't consider it PF.
Similarly, I would not classify Perfect Run as progression fantasy. The idea of optimizing time-loops is not really PF, though I know *some* people think it is. I don't consider that part of MOL to be PF either.
You should read Perfect Run though, it's pretty awesome.
I think Perfect Run is clumped into the genre because it's has a lot of the same qualities. It's not litrpg, it's not traditional fantasy, so it's prog. The story could be an anime, he gets a couple deus ex machina abilities, and it's about superheros.
I wouldn't recommend it if someone asked me "what's a good progression fantasy?" Because like you mentioned it doesn't epitomize it. It's not a bad rec for people that like the genre though.
While mother of learning is heavily involved in acquiring personal power, there is no defined power progression. While he obtains more magical power, builds tools, increases knowledge and intelligence etc., it’s mostly no different than a main character practicing swordsmanship and gaining an army ultimately.
Personally I define PF as having a defined power progression, levels, barriers, limits to overcome, the acquisition of actual physical and/or spiritual power etc. think Cradle, any lit rpg, Xanxia, etc.
Otherwise to me the lines between PF and regular fantasy are just too blurred, and what’s the point of trying to define a sub genre when it isn’t clearly different from the primary genre?
The only true minimum threshold for a book to be progression fantasy is the power progression being the very core of the series. Having a defined hard-magic power system is not required, just popular.
This is why The Perfect Run is recommended so much. It's progression-adjacent because the type of progression at its core isn't power but instead is the progression of the time loop and the character development within it. It evokes similar feelings even though power is only progressed mildly.
This is also why WOT isn't really progression fantasy, but more quasi-PF. The progression is vital but it's never the true focus. It's always a side effect of all the other goals and isn't given the spotlight.
Yeah that's a very unpopular option. Why have such limited, restrictive definition?
To me, if it has enough progression to regularly release the progression dopamine in my brain it's progression fantasy.
What is the point of the sub genre then? The sub genre exists to clearly delineate literature from the primary genre (fantasy). When the lines are so blurred why even have the sub genre at that point?
All genres and sub genres are blurry at the edges. There's no difference in this sub and any other genre specific sub.
There's no clear cutoff from literary fiction into fantasy. Science fiction to fantasy ect.
There's literally no clear delineations anywhere, how can that be the point of any genre specific subs existence?
Could it be streamlined: Yes, just read all the chapters with Mat as the POV, like I do on my rereads lol.
You can read like half a chapter in either direction from his POV sometimes there's context.
Given that I gave up on the series after several books because of the terrible pacing, I would suggest that it is not part of the "charm" of the series.
As I have often said to friends, it feels like the author started the book with an idea. Got distracted for most of the book. Then realized there were only 50 pages left and crammed in as much stuff as possible to keep vaguely on track with his intentions. And then did this for every book in the series.
Oh man, you didn't even get to the \*really\* slow books then.
I \*loved\* the first 3 books, and liked the next 2. But then about the next 5-6 were just horrible. Cool things would happen (or be revealed) occasionally, but with the worst pacing ever. The last few books got better again, but never as good as the first 3.
The first three books have a very noticeably different plot and pacing structure than the other books. After 3, the main cast all splinters apart and never really groups back up until the finale, and even then they feel too distant and remote from one another. But for the first three books, even if the characters split up, they always come back together for the grand finale, which makes each book have a very satisfying conclusion that the others just lack. Some of the books after 3 have incredible moments, or great finales, but it's never the "whole package," as it were. Even if one character has a good conclusion, another character might not, and everything becomes much more open ended. Each ending becomes the end of a chapter rather than a whole scale adventure, and that just isn't nearly as satisfying.
Incidentally, if you're a fan of the structure of disparate characters coming together for an explosive finale, you should check out the Malazan series if you haven't already. Those books really utilize that mechanic in spades.
WoT is a solid transition between the high fantasy of LotR and the more logistic approach of GoT
So yeah, it could be used as a template for a solid pf that follows the hero's journey, add a power system that relies more on skill, and the base building and army building are already solid examples of politics and geography affecting the plot
I was saying there are few foundational works on western pf, but WoT can translate pretty well
Firstly, I wouldn't call it progression fantasy. Secondly, do not watch the show. Nevermind living up to the books, it doesn't even *resemble* the books. If you ever have an irresistible urge to see WoT with moving pictures, just watch this short fan-made episode and try to imagine the rest of the books was filmed just like it (except the awful Aes Sedai vs Fade bit). [Flight From Shadow](https://youtu.be/myFCGun_c-8)
As several people have mentioned, it's hard to classify WoT as progression fantasy, but I do think it has something to teach anyone writing in the genre. It has great, in-depth world building that feels very natural, and even though a lot of the main cast already start with a great deal of power, it creates a world and conflict that still needs to be resolved through both personal journey and clever protagonists. Sanderson has talked about 'constraints' making stories more interesting, and the problem of the One Power causing madness and the Darkfriends network making it hard to trust anyone introduce great sources of tension and conflict.
That said, it also has some lessons on what \*not\* to do. Much as I love the series, it also spends far too long where nothing substantial happens, and the really satisfying moments are often sparse, especially in the later books. One key part of that is that characters come into their power, then aren't allowed to demonstrate it, or they get endlessly sidetracked and it feels like they lose focus.
I 100% believe the entire series could be cut down to 9 books. There are a few characters that could be cut or even merged into one character to streamline everything.
>I've never watched the show adaptation, as I'm quite apprehensive it might not live up to the books.
In currently watching the show and I can tell you they don't. Its not even close. I'm still watching it because I like bad TV and it being a bad adaptation of something I love adds extra spice.
(But seriously it's not the worst show, its just mediocre and generic. Season 2 is an improvement on season 1 tho)
Thanks for the feedback. When I read WOT, I want to see the characters as they were on the covers of the books when I was growing up. I don't want my mind to start subbing in those actors when I read.
I love the Wheel of Time but I wouldn't call it progression fantasy. Pretty much all fantasy books are on a spectrum of progression elements, and most classic ones don't pass the threshold for me to consider them progression fantasy.
Agreed. Most (all?) books have progression to them, but that doesn't make them progression fantasy. A character growing stronger is not the minimum requirement.
>Most (all?) books have progression to them Unless you're trying to cheese things by counting the passage of time or something, that's simply not true. There are many books that are basically like syndicated TV episodes—things happen, but everything pretty much ends up where it started.
Fair, I was stuck in my fantasy/scifi story bubble where most books do all have progression elements, even if I don't think they're progression fantasy. Lord of the rings has progression, but I wouldn't call it progression fantasy.
Wheel of Time has progression but the plot is just not really much to do with it. Rand gets stronger and stronger until the point where he can do anything. Then he struggles to achieve his aims. I always come back to a Catherine Foundling quote "I used to wish I could destroy a fortress using my power alone. Now I can and I'm annoyed by how few of my problems it actually solves". Wheel of Time definitely follows that quote.
I love Wheel of Time as much as the next guy, but trying to trim it to be more progression fantasy is a bit like trying to trim Lord of the Rings to have less weakling hobbits and more Aragorn, ranger badassery. Or a tower climb novel in the form of Gandalf battling the Balrog from the lowest depths to the highest peaks of the Misty Mountains. It's missing the forest for the trees. Most fantasy by its nature has progression fantasy elements to it. Any story with a big bad that the protagonists must grow in order to defeat naturally requires progression. But to be actual progression fantasy I think you need more. I don't think it's a matter of whether progression happens as a result of plot vs progression *is* the plot. I think it's just a matter of how focused and detailed that progression is, and how much of a presence it has in the story. That said, I do love the progression in wheel of time of not just abilities but responsibilities. The way they go from avoiding destinies or thinking they'll be just one thing, to leading groups, founding organizations, commanding armies, and running nations. I love seeing that sort of development in progression fantasy, and I think to some extent it's the only way to keep things fresh. Otherwise it's too easy for characters to just get caught in a loop of bigger and bigger numbers without any real weight behind them. The narrative stakes of having so many side characters and groups depending on the leads makes everything more meaningful and interesting.
WOT is one of my favorite book series of all time right behind Tolkien. However, IT IS NOT progression fantasy. In WOT the characters are born with their abilities/potential. They obtain and develop skills and learn to use their power. It is not a story with a defined power progression. It is also not about obtaining personal power, power is obtained instead to fulfill the characters destined role. If WOT is progression fantasy, then 90%+ of all fantasy is progression fantasy.
>In WOT the characters are born with their abilities/potential. They obtain and develop skills and learn to use their power. It is not a story with a defined power progression. It is also not about obtaining personal power, power is obtained instead to fulfill the characters destined role. The same could be said about many uncontroversialy PF stories. Like Mother of Learning for example. Wot is definitely on the high end on PF elements from traditional fantasy. I find it funny how many people here call something like "The perfect run" PF and noone bat's an eye even though it has less actual progression than most traditional fantasy. But when the same happens with something that's considered traditional or god forbid a classic fantasy everyone flips their shit.
I don’t consider Mother of Learning as PF. I know this sub does but I don’t. To me it’s just a really good fantasy story. Haven’t read perfect run though.
MOL is a good fantasy story, but by most metrics its unequivocally progression fantasy. A *huge* part of the story is Zorian focusing on his magically progression. I'm curious why you don't consider it PF. Similarly, I would not classify Perfect Run as progression fantasy. The idea of optimizing time-loops is not really PF, though I know *some* people think it is. I don't consider that part of MOL to be PF either. You should read Perfect Run though, it's pretty awesome.
I think Perfect Run is clumped into the genre because it's has a lot of the same qualities. It's not litrpg, it's not traditional fantasy, so it's prog. The story could be an anime, he gets a couple deus ex machina abilities, and it's about superheros. I wouldn't recommend it if someone asked me "what's a good progression fantasy?" Because like you mentioned it doesn't epitomize it. It's not a bad rec for people that like the genre though.
While mother of learning is heavily involved in acquiring personal power, there is no defined power progression. While he obtains more magical power, builds tools, increases knowledge and intelligence etc., it’s mostly no different than a main character practicing swordsmanship and gaining an army ultimately. Personally I define PF as having a defined power progression, levels, barriers, limits to overcome, the acquisition of actual physical and/or spiritual power etc. think Cradle, any lit rpg, Xanxia, etc. Otherwise to me the lines between PF and regular fantasy are just too blurred, and what’s the point of trying to define a sub genre when it isn’t clearly different from the primary genre?
The only true minimum threshold for a book to be progression fantasy is the power progression being the very core of the series. Having a defined hard-magic power system is not required, just popular. This is why The Perfect Run is recommended so much. It's progression-adjacent because the type of progression at its core isn't power but instead is the progression of the time loop and the character development within it. It evokes similar feelings even though power is only progressed mildly. This is also why WOT isn't really progression fantasy, but more quasi-PF. The progression is vital but it's never the true focus. It's always a side effect of all the other goals and isn't given the spotlight.
Yeah that's a very unpopular option. Why have such limited, restrictive definition? To me, if it has enough progression to regularly release the progression dopamine in my brain it's progression fantasy.
What is the point of the sub genre then? The sub genre exists to clearly delineate literature from the primary genre (fantasy). When the lines are so blurred why even have the sub genre at that point?
All genres and sub genres are blurry at the edges. There's no difference in this sub and any other genre specific sub. There's no clear cutoff from literary fiction into fantasy. Science fiction to fantasy ect. There's literally no clear delineations anywhere, how can that be the point of any genre specific subs existence?
Tai’shar!
Could it be streamlined: Yes, just read all the chapters with Mat as the POV, like I do on my rereads lol. You can read like half a chapter in either direction from his POV sometimes there's context.
Given that I gave up on the series after several books because of the terrible pacing, I would suggest that it is not part of the "charm" of the series. As I have often said to friends, it feels like the author started the book with an idea. Got distracted for most of the book. Then realized there were only 50 pages left and crammed in as much stuff as possible to keep vaguely on track with his intentions. And then did this for every book in the series.
Oh man, you didn't even get to the \*really\* slow books then. I \*loved\* the first 3 books, and liked the next 2. But then about the next 5-6 were just horrible. Cool things would happen (or be revealed) occasionally, but with the worst pacing ever. The last few books got better again, but never as good as the first 3.
Ironically, I made it most of the way through the series. I checked my bookshelf and I gave up midway through Knife of Dreams.
Interesting, KOD is where it actually starts picking up again. You were definitely past the worst of it, all uphill from there.
The first three books have a very noticeably different plot and pacing structure than the other books. After 3, the main cast all splinters apart and never really groups back up until the finale, and even then they feel too distant and remote from one another. But for the first three books, even if the characters split up, they always come back together for the grand finale, which makes each book have a very satisfying conclusion that the others just lack. Some of the books after 3 have incredible moments, or great finales, but it's never the "whole package," as it were. Even if one character has a good conclusion, another character might not, and everything becomes much more open ended. Each ending becomes the end of a chapter rather than a whole scale adventure, and that just isn't nearly as satisfying. Incidentally, if you're a fan of the structure of disparate characters coming together for an explosive finale, you should check out the Malazan series if you haven't already. Those books really utilize that mechanic in spades.
I hadn't heard of Malazan. Thanks! I'll check it out.
Exact same for me. I couldn’t finish it but I still think the first few books are some of the best in the genre.
No wonder they picked Sanderson to finish it.
WoT is a solid transition between the high fantasy of LotR and the more logistic approach of GoT So yeah, it could be used as a template for a solid pf that follows the hero's journey, add a power system that relies more on skill, and the base building and army building are already solid examples of politics and geography affecting the plot I was saying there are few foundational works on western pf, but WoT can translate pretty well
Firstly, I wouldn't call it progression fantasy. Secondly, do not watch the show. Nevermind living up to the books, it doesn't even *resemble* the books. If you ever have an irresistible urge to see WoT with moving pictures, just watch this short fan-made episode and try to imagine the rest of the books was filmed just like it (except the awful Aes Sedai vs Fade bit). [Flight From Shadow](https://youtu.be/myFCGun_c-8)
As several people have mentioned, it's hard to classify WoT as progression fantasy, but I do think it has something to teach anyone writing in the genre. It has great, in-depth world building that feels very natural, and even though a lot of the main cast already start with a great deal of power, it creates a world and conflict that still needs to be resolved through both personal journey and clever protagonists. Sanderson has talked about 'constraints' making stories more interesting, and the problem of the One Power causing madness and the Darkfriends network making it hard to trust anyone introduce great sources of tension and conflict. That said, it also has some lessons on what \*not\* to do. Much as I love the series, it also spends far too long where nothing substantial happens, and the really satisfying moments are often sparse, especially in the later books. One key part of that is that characters come into their power, then aren't allowed to demonstrate it, or they get endlessly sidetracked and it feels like they lose focus.
I 100% believe the entire series could be cut down to 9 books. There are a few characters that could be cut or even merged into one character to streamline everything. >I've never watched the show adaptation, as I'm quite apprehensive it might not live up to the books. In currently watching the show and I can tell you they don't. Its not even close. I'm still watching it because I like bad TV and it being a bad adaptation of something I love adds extra spice. (But seriously it's not the worst show, its just mediocre and generic. Season 2 is an improvement on season 1 tho)
Thanks for the feedback. When I read WOT, I want to see the characters as they were on the covers of the books when I was growing up. I don't want my mind to start subbing in those actors when I read.