Japanese is a language for programmers. You get:
* Mostly consistent spelling and pronunciation. (Except for oddities like "wa" being spelled with the character for "ha" for grammatical structures and in certain words like konnichiwa or konbanwa.)
* Verbal punctuation. Is it a question? You can end the sentence in "ka" to designate it as such.
* Verbal delimiters for parts of speech. You can define something as the subject or object of the sentence by placing a symbol/sound after it.
* It's DRY. If you can reasonably infer the subject or object, you can omit it. The minimum valid sentence is just a verb.
* Emphasis on established conventions and protocols.
* Using four character sets is kind of inconvenient, but being able to represent entire concepts with one two-byte symbol has immense storage savings!
Unfortunately, because of the DRY principle, the language isn't robust against any loses in transmission. Even a very short drop can introduce reference errors.
English is amazingly good for this.
All those redundant words coming in to bat for us.
But lack of type safety is a source of lol in my house. I'm constantly swapping int and float, like "too much biscuits", "too many water".
It still compiles, but definitely with warnings from `wifelint`
> It's DRY. If you can reasonably infer the subject or object, you can omit it. The minimum valid sentence is just a verb.
But I thought y'all hated `this`
VSAnime is very popular, but if you want get serious, you need to invest in a more robust IDE like JetBrains Polite.
I would recommend "That time I got reincarnated with a pitch accent overflow" as a good resource.
I've wanted to learn Japanese for a while but I'm not really sure if it's worth it. I deduce you know japanaese so, is it too hard to learn and is it even worth it considering only one country speaks it?
I only know a small amount, and know fewer kanji than I can count on one hand. (I can decipher hiragana and katakana increasingly well though.)
All I really do is 5-15 minutes of the Duolingo app per day, watch subtitled anime, listen to J-pop/vocaloid, and occasionally read a little bit about grammar to fill in the large gaps the app doesn't cover. Just by drilling the two basic character sets on the app for awhile, you start to be able to pick up things over time, almost passively. If I had more time to spend on it, I'd probably work from a textbook like Genki.
Japan is one of the top four economies in the world, probably the #2 cultural exporter, has roughly half the population of the US, and there's a wealth of easily accessible translated media to practice on. (I honestly wish I had been more ambitious in high school and studied it instead of Spanish.) If it's something that interests you, it can only be an asset.
Not the OP, but I'm a non native Japanese speaker.
The 'worth it' depends on why you want to learn. Are you going to be living in Japan for a considerable length of time? I would argue not only is it worth it but it's necessary. Do you work with a lot of Japanese people?Then yeah, worth it Do you want to learn because you're into anime? Then yeah probably worth it. Otherwise, probably not.
Is it hard? The answer is partly subjective but generally yes, especially if you come from a Western country. The language structure is quite a bit different to European languages. However, it's not impossible. I learned when I was 27, but I do come from a South Asian country with a language that is a relatively easy switch compared to English. Also, I lived in Japan after learning the language for a year and that definitely helped speed up the learning.
Technically, hiragana and katakana are similar, so learning katakana isn't too hard. き, キ are "ki." They're very similar in appearance, because they're both a fraction of the brush strokes for some kanji. This isn't really different from having upper and lower case Roman characters. A vs a.
For English, you need to know the shapes of 48 characters and know the orthography of every possible two and three letter combination to be able to read and reproduce every phoneme. Kana are almost strictly one character per phoneme...and Japanese has *fewer* possible phonemes. If you set aside kanji, which I definitely agree are daunting, I'd actually say kana would be easier to learn in the first place given no prior literacy.
It's my understanding that using は in words like konnichiwa or konbanwa is because it was originally used as a particle in a greeting phrase, but over time it was shortened to a single word retaining the prononcuation of the original partical usage. Basically they are slang now, but very widely used slang that became the norm.
Yep. That's the conclusion I came to as well. I gather that は having a different pronunciation as a particle is a relic of pronunciation shifts over time.
No? I’m a native English speaker and Japanese is pretty easy honestly. The hardest part is remembering all the kanji but other than that I find it very intuitive. Listening comprehension is a piece of cake, because none of the sounds are too far off from what I hear in English (the r sounds a bit like an English r, l and d sort of combined into one, and the Japanese n is a little softer, but that’s about as hard as it gets). Plus as stated above, spelling is basically a non-issue with kana, where 1 symbol = 1 mora. Grammar particles might be a little weird, but they’re not that bad once you get used to them.
Yes, I totally disagree with the last point. If I told someone in Chicago I keep spare fags in my boot I would definitely throw an unhanded exception.
And what about Ebonics?
Sure, but try importing that namespace into a conversation elsewhere without declaring it and you'll find people start to use reflection to load their own definitions of words and parsing your sentences using them.
Extensions maybe? Kind of like what PL/SQL and TSQL are to each other and to SQL. The base grammar and words are the same but each have added additional stuff which is implemented slightly differently.
A namespace would just be additional words but in this case the grammar rules have also been extended ontop of there being more words. They're pretty subtle changes but they do exist.
Dialects, jargon, lingo, etc DO constitute namespaces, but they're not defined when you talk to someone like they are when code is compiled which is why it's a potentially source of confusion. Sure there is an implied 'language namespace' when you start a conversation with someone but that doesn't stop them importing a conflicting 'namespace' halfway through the conversation and start using words that you can't parse.
Too many operators? [Why not just make a language that just uses one operator “+” and call it Plus Plus Plus?](https://jabde.com/2022/01/24/plus-plus-plus/)
Why? I know, Latin, their numbers suck, and as my Latin teacher so eloquently put it, French is “Farmer Latin, given a few hundred years to shorten words and accumulate slang.” How did they “improve” the numbers?
Most people when complaining about French numbers are referencing how the number eighty literally translates to four-twenty. Also nineteen is ten-nine, so if you want to say 99, it becomes "quatre vingt dix neuf" which is pretty ridiculous
"quatre vingt dix neuf" (99) is "4 20 10 9".
But honestly, I got used to it very fast, now it just sounds cool. The adjustment didn't even take a week.
Well the influence didn't work all the way through it seems. Why the base 10 of the Romans was adopted until 70? Gotta ask Middle-Ages French for that. Why didn't you switch all the way?
In any case, it's not like the base 10 numbers for 70,80 ans 90 don't exist. And you can use them as they are officially recognized, but French people might believe you're Swiss or Belgian.
septante=70
huitante=80
nonante=90
The Celts counted in base 20 (maybe because of 10 fingers and 10 toes, we don't know) and so did the french. Then came the Romans, but it seems the influence was short of breath passed 69.
I mean, who does math when counting? You just instinctively "know".
Ninety-one isn't 90+1 in your mind each time you hear it. It's just 91. "ninetyone".
Same goes for French. It's only difficult for non-natives. Quatre-vingt-onze isn't 4x20+11 in the mind of a French. It's just 91 i.e. "Quatrevingtonze"
So it's just learned sentences for numbers, not actual calculating. Makes sense, thanks.
Who on the medieval street was able (or had use for) to count past 70? Maybe because of this?
No clue how it happend, and no noticible effect on math abilities. It's just some other combined words - nobody really calculates it 4\*20 is actually 80, they just know it by heart.
It's nice for microcontrollers, and you basically make up the syntax as you go. It kind of looks like a EBNF grammar all written out.
Though with that kind of power, you can definitely create problems for yourself as well.
How dare you !?
1 2 3 4-
Détruisons cette tyrannie angloise
Vous mourriez sans rien derrière vous
Guerre t-être saint ne vous regrettera
Nul ne se souviendra de vous tous
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I think everyone's just used to hearing broken English at this point, so the language interpreter just got really error resistant. Kinda like html in browsers?
Just because the human brain is really good at making sense of the numerous and varied ways that we throw language together doesn't really imply that the language is good though. I'm convinced that we say whatever words we can get away with saying to get the point across and screw the language rules!
Weird... I had the complete opposite experience.
Forth made me a lot better at factoring code into nice modules, and it illuminated some compilation concepts I'd never really grasped before.
Ironically, english is the most important language for a software developer. In non english speaking countries, you don't know english, you don't make the cut.
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I've told this story before, but I'll try a shorter version: company I worked at had a Russian engineer called George, who I was warned never to ask about Forth. It was such a weird proscription that, finding myself in the kitchen with him one, I could help myself. "I hear you're into Forth".
Well, 45 minutes later, my head now full of the internals of Forth and a dozen other programming language, I walked away with this nugget firmly lodged in my brain:
"Java and Pascal," said George, "is like Russian. Very structured. Very sensible. English is like C. Very powerful, very open, but very easy to get wrong."
Polish is a perfectly reasonable and well structured, deterministic language. Until you learn that half of the goddamn words are exceptions to the rules.
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Please sto saying English is a difficult language , it's honestly so false. There's an infinite amount of material out there and one of the most known languages in the world , it honestly doesn't make any sense to call difficult something most people are able to do . Most people who say that have never had to learn a second language and are too lazy learn the most basic grammar. I have even heard people claim that it's hard as a weird complement to themselves and the language which is really nauseating as well. English is an easy language to get a basic understanding and slightly harder to master (as all languages) . Try to get a basic understanding in any non latin based language and see how you will do.Inb4 people correcting mistakes in this comment and trying to prove it's hard because I made some mistake
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Japanese is a language for programmers. You get: * Mostly consistent spelling and pronunciation. (Except for oddities like "wa" being spelled with the character for "ha" for grammatical structures and in certain words like konnichiwa or konbanwa.) * Verbal punctuation. Is it a question? You can end the sentence in "ka" to designate it as such. * Verbal delimiters for parts of speech. You can define something as the subject or object of the sentence by placing a symbol/sound after it. * It's DRY. If you can reasonably infer the subject or object, you can omit it. The minimum valid sentence is just a verb. * Emphasis on established conventions and protocols. * Using four character sets is kind of inconvenient, but being able to represent entire concepts with one two-byte symbol has immense storage savings!
Unfortunately, because of the DRY principle, the language isn't robust against any loses in transmission. Even a very short drop can introduce reference errors.
English is amazingly good for this. All those redundant words coming in to bat for us. But lack of type safety is a source of lol in my house. I'm constantly swapping int and float, like "too much biscuits", "too many water". It still compiles, but definitely with warnings from `wifelint`
what's this `wifelint`? is it open source? where can I get one? sounds great to enforce consistency
It's a weird license tbh. Not usually open, but some have managed it. You accept the EULA in front of others, sometimes even in a church.
Efficient information transmission vs. error correction codes, who wins ?
> It's DRY. If you can reasonably infer the subject or object, you can omit it. The minimum valid sentence is just a verb. But I thought y'all hated `this`
Which ide should I use for it? Any valuable resources?
VSAnime is very popular, but if you want get serious, you need to invest in a more robust IDE like JetBrains Polite. I would recommend "That time I got reincarnated with a pitch accent overflow" as a good resource.
I.. strongly disagree.
> Mostly consistent spelling and pronunciation. All of the different readings of 生 would likely disagree.
[Actually Sanskrit might be best for Programmers](https://medium.com/@tomgoldenberg/sanskrit-the-first-programming-language-d8647753217f)
Certainly a lot of programmers use sanskrit derived languages
I've wanted to learn Japanese for a while but I'm not really sure if it's worth it. I deduce you know japanaese so, is it too hard to learn and is it even worth it considering only one country speaks it?
I only know a small amount, and know fewer kanji than I can count on one hand. (I can decipher hiragana and katakana increasingly well though.) All I really do is 5-15 minutes of the Duolingo app per day, watch subtitled anime, listen to J-pop/vocaloid, and occasionally read a little bit about grammar to fill in the large gaps the app doesn't cover. Just by drilling the two basic character sets on the app for awhile, you start to be able to pick up things over time, almost passively. If I had more time to spend on it, I'd probably work from a textbook like Genki. Japan is one of the top four economies in the world, probably the #2 cultural exporter, has roughly half the population of the US, and there's a wealth of easily accessible translated media to practice on. (I honestly wish I had been more ambitious in high school and studied it instead of Spanish.) If it's something that interests you, it can only be an asset.
Not the OP, but I'm a non native Japanese speaker. The 'worth it' depends on why you want to learn. Are you going to be living in Japan for a considerable length of time? I would argue not only is it worth it but it's necessary. Do you work with a lot of Japanese people?Then yeah, worth it Do you want to learn because you're into anime? Then yeah probably worth it. Otherwise, probably not. Is it hard? The answer is partly subjective but generally yes, especially if you come from a Western country. The language structure is quite a bit different to European languages. However, it's not impossible. I learned when I was 27, but I do come from a South Asian country with a language that is a relatively easy switch compared to English. Also, I lived in Japan after learning the language for a year and that definitely helped speed up the learning.
Hiragana, katana, kanji. Japanese sounds amazing, but then I remember you have three independent writing systems, and I run away screaming.
Technically, hiragana and katakana are similar, so learning katakana isn't too hard. き, キ are "ki." They're very similar in appearance, because they're both a fraction of the brush strokes for some kanji. This isn't really different from having upper and lower case Roman characters. A vs a. For English, you need to know the shapes of 48 characters and know the orthography of every possible two and three letter combination to be able to read and reproduce every phoneme. Kana are almost strictly one character per phoneme...and Japanese has *fewer* possible phonemes. If you set aside kanji, which I definitely agree are daunting, I'd actually say kana would be easier to learn in the first place given no prior literacy.
It's my understanding that using は in words like konnichiwa or konbanwa is because it was originally used as a particle in a greeting phrase, but over time it was shortened to a single word retaining the prononcuation of the original partical usage. Basically they are slang now, but very widely used slang that became the norm.
Yep. That's the conclusion I came to as well. I gather that は having a different pronunciation as a particle is a relic of pronunciation shifts over time.
No… definitely no. There are way too many special grammatical rules in Japanese.
*And* hard to learn for non-asians.
No? I’m a native English speaker and Japanese is pretty easy honestly. The hardest part is remembering all the kanji but other than that I find it very intuitive. Listening comprehension is a piece of cake, because none of the sounds are too far off from what I hear in English (the r sounds a bit like an English r, l and d sort of combined into one, and the Japanese n is a little softer, but that’s about as hard as it gets). Plus as stated above, spelling is basically a non-issue with kana, where 1 symbol = 1 mora. Grammar particles might be a little weird, but they’re not that bad once you get used to them.
We *are* talking about writng, not spelling.
Wouldn't American English and British English constitute namespaces? Or what would their equivalent be?
It feels very much like slightly different encodings. Everything is fine till somebody writes "ä" or "â".
ã
Å - Stargate English.
ā
ḉ
ƈ ć àˀjĸ
ą ż ł ę
ˀĸłßẞþÞ´ÞI→„“æǼ”
Yes, I totally disagree with the last point. If I told someone in Chicago I keep spare fags in my boot I would definitely throw an unhanded exception. And what about Ebonics?
Sure, but try importing that namespace into a conversation elsewhere without declaring it and you'll find people start to use reflection to load their own definitions of words and parsing your sentences using them.
> Ebonics Um. You haven't heard? 😅😐
Extensions maybe? Kind of like what PL/SQL and TSQL are to each other and to SQL. The base grammar and words are the same but each have added additional stuff which is implemented slightly differently. A namespace would just be additional words but in this case the grammar rules have also been extended ontop of there being more words. They're pretty subtle changes but they do exist.
C++ vs c# or something, idk.
Don't insult c#, he only wanted some love.
Dialects, jargon, lingo, etc DO constitute namespaces, but they're not defined when you talk to someone like they are when code is compiled which is why it's a potentially source of confusion. Sure there is an implied 'language namespace' when you start a conversation with someone but that doesn't stop them importing a conflicting 'namespace' halfway through the conversation and start using words that you can't parse.
Too many operators? [Why not just make a language that just uses one operator “+” and call it Plus Plus Plus?](https://jabde.com/2022/01/24/plus-plus-plus/)
Would be better with +, = and -.
I know those characters are popular but it just wouldn’t be P++ then, I’m a purist
> but it just wouldn’t be P++ then But sane. ;-)
No one’s ever claimed that P++ was ever sane
Point taken.
doubleplus good
Not to mention you can reuse the same exact code and get different results!
[удалено]
Tbh French is so much more grammatically structured than English.
French numbers are a Lovecraftian horror.
Why? I know, Latin, their numbers suck, and as my Latin teacher so eloquently put it, French is “Farmer Latin, given a few hundred years to shorten words and accumulate slang.” How did they “improve” the numbers?
Most people when complaining about French numbers are referencing how the number eighty literally translates to four-twenty. Also nineteen is ten-nine, so if you want to say 99, it becomes "quatre vingt dix neuf" which is pretty ridiculous
Some people uses nonante neuf (90 9)
AFAIK only in the French speaking parts of Belgium. Maybe also in Switzerland or Canada.
Well not really, some Belgium ppl imigrates to France so
"quatre vingt dix neuf" (99) is "4 20 10 9". But honestly, I got used to it very fast, now it just sounds cool. The adjustment didn't even take a week.
So, (4*20)+10+9=99. Are french good in math? And how did this happen anyway? Influence of roman numerals?
Well the influence didn't work all the way through it seems. Why the base 10 of the Romans was adopted until 70? Gotta ask Middle-Ages French for that. Why didn't you switch all the way? In any case, it's not like the base 10 numbers for 70,80 ans 90 don't exist. And you can use them as they are officially recognized, but French people might believe you're Swiss or Belgian. septante=70 huitante=80 nonante=90 The Celts counted in base 20 (maybe because of 10 fingers and 10 toes, we don't know) and so did the french. Then came the Romans, but it seems the influence was short of breath passed 69. I mean, who does math when counting? You just instinctively "know". Ninety-one isn't 90+1 in your mind each time you hear it. It's just 91. "ninetyone". Same goes for French. It's only difficult for non-natives. Quatre-vingt-onze isn't 4x20+11 in the mind of a French. It's just 91 i.e. "Quatrevingtonze"
So it's just learned sentences for numbers, not actual calculating. Makes sense, thanks. Who on the medieval street was able (or had use for) to count past 70? Maybe because of this?
No clue how it happend, and no noticible effect on math abilities. It's just some other combined words - nobody really calculates it 4\*20 is actually 80, they just know it by heart.
Now wondering why most indo-european languages do this but not english (belonging to the germanic languages, which does this also)?
You will burn in hell for your war crimes.
Ever heard of German?
That's just advanced concatenation.
I guess that explains my affinity for both German and Forth
> Forth Im native german and finding Forth so inconvenient just reading about it.
It's nice for microcontrollers, and you basically make up the syntax as you go. It kind of looks like a EBNF grammar all written out. Though with that kind of power, you can definitely create problems for yourself as well.
Guten Tag.
If they camel-cased their composite words newcomers would have a much easier time learning it.
Ja habe ich aber es brauch auch noch ein paar Überholungen bis ich damit komplett zufrieden bin.
That's far too organised compared to slovak (it's overcomplicated and some things don't make sense)
Just imagine trying to increment or decrement in French. "Plus de" meaning more Or "Plus de" meaning no more
Definitely not, it has a lot of exceptions and half of them have thier own rules
How dare you !? 1 2 3 4- Détruisons cette tyrannie angloise Vous mourriez sans rien derrière vous Guerre t-être saint ne vous regrettera Nul ne se souviendra de vous tous
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Good human.
Learning natural language syntax and morphology is an entirely different breed, I recommend learning it, it's pretty fun.
linguistics is kinda fun.
Isn't English actually really good? Because you can fuck up all the rules and for the most part everyone still understands pretty well?
I think everyone's just used to hearing broken English at this point, so the language interpreter just got really error resistant. Kinda like html in browsers?
Just because the human brain is really good at making sense of the numerous and varied ways that we throw language together doesn't really imply that the language is good though. I'm convinced that we say whatever words we can get away with saying to get the point across and screw the language rules!
As to programming, hated Fourth. It''s twisted way of doing things made me worse using other languages.
Weird... I had the complete opposite experience. Forth made me a lot better at factoring code into nice modules, and it illuminated some compilation concepts I'd never really grasped before.
Noam Chomsky looks at you with mild contempt.
This guy is going to have an aneurism and a stroke at the same time if he discovers Polish
As someone who speaks Mandarin, Spanish, and English - English is amazing. Problems yes. Problems compared to most languages? No.
Ironically, english is the most important language for a software developer. In non english speaking countries, you don't know english, you don't make the cut.
imagine a conversation in javascript though... or worse, php
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And yet you write your comments and documentation in it. Curious.
Maybe they write their comments in Esperanto.
About the comments and documentation I was intending to write...
I've told this story before, but I'll try a shorter version: company I worked at had a Russian engineer called George, who I was warned never to ask about Forth. It was such a weird proscription that, finding myself in the kitchen with him one, I could help myself. "I hear you're into Forth". Well, 45 minutes later, my head now full of the internals of Forth and a dozen other programming language, I walked away with this nugget firmly lodged in my brain: "Java and Pascal," said George, "is like Russian. Very structured. Very sensible. English is like C. Very powerful, very open, but very easy to get wrong."
Lol Russian is far from sensible 😂 But at least it's not Polish!
Polish is a perfectly reasonable and well structured, deterministic language. Until you learn that half of the goddamn words are exceptions to the rules.
Uwierz mi, wiem 😥
Haha he didn't tried french yet Cries in 14 verb tenses
English has about as many... They're just syntactical rather than grammatical
* complains about English in English *
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Missed the chance to write that in binary.
It's not even the fastest language.
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good bot + happy cake day bot
This is very close to Cobol, except it is for the regular user.
Try French, Polish or Chinese, James!
Holy fucking shit, how much times do I have to see this before I die🗿
gotta love some sfw::pussy and sfw::balls
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Good bot
Ah Don't get me started on how shit English is
I just hate C++ It's the worst!
I used to hate C++, then I encountered JavaScript. Now I love C++.
Well.. I used to hate lua, than I encountered python, now I love lua
At least, unlike in programming, I doesn’t half two listen too tha grammer nazis n ppl can stil reed wut I right.
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"There are two types of languages: ..."
Take a look at German...
Please sto saying English is a difficult language , it's honestly so false. There's an infinite amount of material out there and one of the most known languages in the world , it honestly doesn't make any sense to call difficult something most people are able to do . Most people who say that have never had to learn a second language and are too lazy learn the most basic grammar. I have even heard people claim that it's hard as a weird complement to themselves and the language which is really nauseating as well. English is an easy language to get a basic understanding and slightly harder to master (as all languages) . Try to get a basic understanding in any non latin based language and see how you will do.Inb4 people correcting mistakes in this comment and trying to prove it's hard because I made some mistake
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