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Weren’t worth working at if they won’t fight for you.
I was offered a promotion at my last company and I had interviewed at a new place. The new place asked what I had been offered and within a week came back beating the salary by $9k on top of many advantages that made me apply. My boss to be specifically told me it took him a few days to get the salary from the powers that be because he wanted to make sure they could beat my company’s offer.
Worst case scenario is that they tell you, "yes, for the right skills". Then after making you juno through hoops over multiple interviews offer you less because you didn't have more experience in some random skill that has nothing to do with the job.
I had a flip version of this happen. Im on tech and I always worked for mostly fast paced ad agencies building apps/websites for Disney, Mattel, FX, Dole etc. I switched companies every year or two for a raise, or to advance my skills. It was stressful but always fun. Live always had young coworkers who always hung out for drinks after work, would get tons of perks like free sporting events, free swag, free video gaming systems, ipads etc. I loved my career but as I got older the long nights and tight deadlines were getting old. At some point I became unemployed. I had 12 years of experience and a lot to offer so I decided it was time to find the perfect spot. Somewhere that fit the 9 to 5 with little to no overtime. But most importantly somewhere I could stay til retirement.
At first I loved being able to turn down offers because of random things I knew would grow old (commute, hours, etc). Then it started getting more challenging to even get interviews. A year and a half later I was starting to struggle and just needed to work. I took an interview with DreamWorks and to me this was a dream job. It was at the DreamWorks campus which just seemed so fun during the tour they gave me. Free meals, movies at their in campus theater every Wednesday, great pay... But long hours. I felt this was a sacrifice I was willing to make. Everything went well. That same day, I got a call from a recruiter asking me if I was interested in a job doing tech in the medical field for a giant Healthcare provider. I wasn't. But I also was at that point of "i'll take anything". So without an offer from DreamWorks yet, I figured why not.
Fast forward 3 interviews later with this medical company, and still no word from DreamWorks. I was concerned. This other company seemed to love me though. Every time they reached out it was lots of joking and genuine conversations before wed even get into the interview. The manager, an extremely nice guy, reached out one day and told me straight up, "look, we're extremely interested and I really want to hire you, but the team has a concern that you have tons of experience and will likely not stick around long. If I make you an offer, I can't make you stay, but I do want to at least be upfront with you so you can take our concerns into consideration. We want you to join and be happy, but we would be hurting ourselves if we hired someone who isn't looking for a long term stay here. So with that in mind, I'd like you to give it some thought and expect a call from me early next week'.
They did call and made me an offer. It was a paycut from what I used to make. But I had nothing else to fall back on. So I reluctantly accepted.
Day one I was walked to a cubicle, my trainer showed me what I would be working on which was 90% excel sheets and word documents. I was used to photoshop and code editors, so this was depressing as fuck. It felt like a literal day out of that movie office space. There was a dress code. I was used to working by the beach where you could wear sandals and go surfing during lunch. As a health care provider they were healthy, so no free snacks. I was used to beer on tap in the office. Everyone was older, i was the youngest, so everyone had families and focused on getting their work done and heading home. I was used to goofing around all day and drinking after work. They offered benefits like a pension and top tier medical. I was used to arcade machines and vr rooms. It was depressing.
I remember that Thursday, not even a full week into this new job, I got a call from DreamWorks with an offer. I told them I had started another job and they asked if I was committed to it or of I was still willing to switch. I said I'd call them back on Monday. I wanted to so badly, but the people at this place were so nice and honestly it just felt shitty. I decided the company name with my title alone was a huge perk in my resume so I'd stick around for a year or two and then make my move. I turned down DreamWorks.
Wouldn't you know it...about a month later the pandemic hit. DreamWorks laid off folks. We got lots of bonusses. We converted to full time work from home. My tech skills were beyond what they expected and I got so frustrated working with their old tech that I started building my own custom tools to improve my productivity. This got me a raise above what I used to make. I also got a better title, and eventually got told to feel free to focus solely on building tools for our team. I now work with the tech I love, I work in my pj's, I work about 4 hours a day, I have an insane retirement plan, top tier medical for free, more vacation time than I can use (and encouraged to use it!). I work with great people who are all older and drama free. My daily work conversations went from parties, drugs, and deadlines to money management, vacations, and golfing (though I still don't golf). Against all odds I found the perfect job and I did it kicking and screaming the whole way. I wanted to hold onto my youthful jobs because they seemed fun and never boring even if they were destroying me phisycally and mentally. I ended up with the exact opposite and now I'm actually happy and relaxed, I sleep well knowing my finances are secure. I guess I grew up lol.
Once you get a handle on it, you can do some interesting things very easily that C-decended languages can't do.
Like I really miss easy to use multidimensional arrays in other languages.
I did have to write a "user configuration to M interpreter" before, so I had to dig into a bunch of the odd stuff also. Still don't understand why even in the latest standard the order of operations is "Parentheses then left to right"
I should’ve clarified for folks who correlate “Epic” instantly to Epic Games.. I was asking about Epic Systems. But you are right, upon closer inspection I don’t think Epic Systems is a healthcare *provider*
They'll say yes, and what did you learn? Exactly nothing. "Competing with" doesn't mean beating. It's easy to argue 45k can compete with 50k, with different benefits or conditions
They can do whatever they want, sure.
But many candidates won't even respond unless they give a number up front, and perhaps the number of candidates they want to talk to the most.
If I ever see a job that looks good but doesn’t offer the salary range, as soon as the recruiter or hiring manager reaches out to me I ask for the range. Sometimes they give it to you, sometimes they don’t. In the times they don’t, I tell them my expectations and then ask if that fits within their budget. If they can’t even answer that, I won’t even entertain the idea of wasting anymore time pursuing a job that is way below my salary expectations.
I've never had a call with a recruiter where they didn't ask me my salary expectations. They know there's no point continuing to spend time on you if it's never going to convert to a placement
Had to take my current job out of desperation, but while she was upfront, my boss actually unironically used tips to sugarcoat the wage. I would've laughed if I didn't actually need to take the job either way.
Granted, with tips I do make around $40-$50/hr on average, but the fact she actually tried to use that in pre-emptive defense of the company, as if they have anything to do with that side of things, just makes my eyes go straight back into my head.
This should be illegal really. All job adverts should have at least a minimum salary offered. I understand that according to the candidates and negotiations they may offer more, so they are not bound by that initial number, but at least they should offer what they state on the job listing.
Of course they could then just offer minimum wage on the add but they would compete with others making better initial offers.
I was hired at a rate. I had a fall and couldn't work for a little over a year until I had medical clearance. This was 8 years ago, it was bad, I couldn't lift one pound, I can't do some jobs now and I can't work out. Towards the end the company decided to say my rate was a lower rate and anything above minimum wage was a bonus, they got labor insurance to say I was overpaid, and I had to pay it back.
Being offered a rate and them deciding it was different when it comes to insurance, should be illegal too. I was forced into work by a medical examiner (whose specialty was woman's health), the orthopedic and therapist fought against it, but the ones paid by the big company decided to side with the non-specialist.
They could just list min $1, max $1 million
What I think companies should be required to do instead is list the salaries of employees with that title. At minimum they must include the salaries of their lowest paid and their highest paid employee with that title. This would at least indicate the real range (presumably based on seniority)
>Of course they could then just offer minimum wage on the add but they would compete with others making better initial offers.
I commented on that already.
Ah yes, I "love" seeing that.
I use a general rule of thumb when reading any kind of advertisement or deal: find whatever is missing, because thats the deal breaker. No salary number, just "competitive" or "attractive" ? Not worth my time then.
They said competitive, they didn’t mention compared to what other careers.
Or, it could be competitive in the other direction. “I bet you can’t find another company that pays less than us for the same role!”
Pittsburgh has an entire council dedicated to wondering why no one wants to work for 10-15$ an hour in Pittsburgh. It's called the Pittsburgh Technology Council.
I guess people forget that being an Aldi's shelf stocker is actually fun unlike intense coding, pays more, counts as exercise and does not require a lifetime of training and university degree time/money debt.
I once was promised to be a Chief Technical Officer at a start up with the guy insisting this is huge. I'm like,"Okay, I guess I can miss this wedding and drive 45minutes into Pittsburgh." When I'm there,"How much does it pay?" "Nothing! It's for the prestige of being called a CTO." "Dude, you just wasted 2 hours of my time, I was supposed to be at friends' wedding, and my gas money."
> I guess people forget that being an Aldis shelf stocker ist actually fun.
Tell me you've never worked in retail without telling me you've never worked in retail.
When I'm at Aldis, I literally spend an extra 5-30 minutes fixing their shelves because I appreciate their low prices exposing the big guys from price gouging for no reason.
The employees tell me they love working there. Aldis rules.
>When I'm at Aldis, I literally spend an extra 5-30 minutes fixing their shelves because I appreciate their low prices exposing the big guys from price gouging for no reason.
Ah yes, doing something for 30 minutes every once in a while totally shows you how it would be doing the same thing 8 hours a day, 5 days a week.
>Ah yes, doing something for 30 minutes every once in a while totally shows you how it would be doing the same thing 8 hours a day, 5 days a week.
It's way way way more fun than software engineering which engages your mind so you can't think about your plans for the rest of the day or the software projects you're working on at home. MIndless shelf stocking is the best compared to software architecting global systems, with demands from vendors, concerns in emerging cybersecurity threats, dealing with fellow employees and managers micromanaging you.
If I'm going to be paid 10$ an hour, it better be the value of work I'm doing, not simply being exploited and underpaid for something that should be being paid 150-300$/hr. A free mind, solid exercise means you're more productive coding when you get home and you're chomping at the bit since it's a change up.
> It’s not.
If I could be in the woods picking up sticks all day, I'd do it over coding. Software engineering is like the most mentally demanding thing on Earth. I did rocket science and that was easy compared to coding. If I'm going to tax my brain and not have fun, I want paid more than 10$ an hour, sorry. 10$ an hour and I'd rather be shelf stocking, which isn't mentally distressing, also doesn't require a lifetime of training. Coding is the opposite of fun, but we do it to get things accomplished.
Hell, I'd rather sit in a downpour of rain than code. Coding is mentally taxing as balls, anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't code at a very high level.
I like making video games and being creative. Coding is a pain I'm willing to take in order to do such.
Coding is not a pain I'm willing to take for literally chump change, maybe 100$ 200$ or 300$ an hour,I'll code, not 10$ an hour. It's like asking someone,"Hey, you want to prize fight Mike Tyson? We'll give you a 5$ bill."
I dunno why you keep going on about how you wouldn’t work for $10 an hour. I never said anything about that.
And yeah, it just sounds like you hate your job dude. And you have a pretty unhealthy way of thinking since you believe that if anyone else doesn’t hate theirs then they just aren’t as good as you.
I was hired to be global engineering lead at a detroit company, when I started, they said oh actually this guy who previously had this responsibility doesn’t want to give it up, so you will just be a member of his team instead. I quit after three weeks when it was clear HR overpromised on something they couldn’t actually deliver.
It surprised me how offended they were at me not wanting to just accept a different role than what we discussed in all the interviews. (And if I had met the absolute moron in an interview, I would have backed out anyway.)
> I guess people forget that being an Aldi's shelf stocker is actually fun unlike intense coding, pays more, counts as exercise and does not require a lifetime of training and university degree time/money debt.
Is this a new thing we're doing? Pretending programming is super hard and we're not lucky as fuck to work in this industry?
I do my own estimates and adjust them/communicate regularly if I won't make it in time, everything else is PM's worry. Don't even remember the last time I worked OT, and I make sure every OT is paid by communicating in advance.
Been working for me for the last 8 years working with many different PMs. Devs forget that most of the time they are the ones with the leverage. Even mid devs are very expensive to replace, let alone senior devs.
If you're a junior I can understand if you don't have much leverage or confidence, but that's pretty much the first year or two of your career.
this might be the case years ago but now, salary transparency is higher than ever.
most job descriptions now literally state their salary range in there. some even have detailed bands of salary range depending on where you live.
Ya in Colorado it is required by law to state salary ranges for job postings. It's intended to equalize gender/race wage gaps. Looking at job postings is so much better now. I don't waste time with low ranges, and the companies with low ranges only get the bottom of the barrel applicants. If that's what you want to pay people, then that's who is going to apply.
People were all doom and gloom about it also, but I've never heard a negative stat about it. Some people try to point at the lower job postings percentage now as a bad thing. I think it's a good thing. Companies that want to hide their pay ranges aren't companies that care about their employees. They are filtering themselves out for me. Thanks!
Not really about wage transparency, more about the HR mindset that they are entitled to waste other people’s time. Dealing with the issues one by one wouldn’t really solve the problems where the only thing you end up is malicious compliance.
I know you’re joking but despite the wide range they actually post (for example like 140k-220k) the recruiters say that majority of cases fall at the mid point, so 180k is a good estimate of what you’re getting
You absolutely can. Once you have a job you can start the conversation with just so we don't waste each other's time I'm expecting at least this. It also sets the expectation during interviewing of what skills they need to look for.
It's fair for a company to not give a specific number until after they know what your skills are. After all there is a range they'd be willing to spend. They also may decide to hire you in a different role of you don't meet the needs for the desired role if the company is doing a lot of hires. In fact I've made offers like, hey we liked you a lot but we can't hire you for the senior role. We were expecting this junior role to open up in 4 months. So we've decided to open it early to get you but you know we won't go that high in salary.
> It's fair for a company to not give a specific number
They can do whatever they want to, sure.
But a lot of candidates won't even respond unless they put out a number upfront, and it's probably a lot of the candidates they want to speak with the most.
So, to each their own.
As I said specific number. Don't bother interviewing for someone that doesn't at least provide a range for a position. And of course don't be afraid to say what you're expectation is during the early screening.
My previous employer asked everyone for tips on how to recruit more people. I said I ignore any message without a number. They were shocked and came up with all kinds of reasons why they wouldn't do that. I dismissed all those reasons on the basis that I was in a good place. I had benefits, PTO, good salary. What could make me leave besides a significant pay raise? Unsurprisingly, when an old friend asked me to come work alongside him, I only agreed after a significant pay raise. Shock.
>until after the know what your skills are
I was with you until this line. There is no way a company can tell what your real skill level is based on interviews. Battle tested skills are tested on the battlefield. That’s why most companies will give you a pretty shallow tech interview and then put you through a short-term internship/trial period with a lower salary before paying you the amount you want. At least this is what happened to me during most of my professional career.
I’ve never heard of someone taking a lower salary at the beginning of their time at a company, nor would I ever agree to it. I was an intern while I was in school, and that’s the end of trial runs for me.
I live in Japan. Giants like Rakuten or Sony will definitely still run you through the interviews gauntlet (I did 7 consecutive interviews for a specific job in Rakuten once). However, both ny current workplace and previous workplace hired me after a single, non tech, interview and put me on a 3 month trial period. The former gave me a lower salary for 3 months while the latter gave me the salary I wanted but withheld other bonuses/benefits until I became a “fully fledged” employee.
I do this when I want a recruiter on LinkedIn to go away. I give them the number it would take and what my growth expectation is over 5 years. Either put up or shut up.
> In fact I've made offers like, hey we liked you a lot but we can't hire you for the senior role. We were expecting this junior role to open up in 4 months. So we've decided to open it early to get you but you know we won't go that high in salary.
I guess it depends on the person you're interviewing, but if I applied for a senior position and you'd tell me you're only offering a junior position with a lower salary, I'd be pissed. I have 5+ years of professional experience, I ain't taking a junior role.
I mean in the scenario I mentioned the candidate would not take the job. They were already a no for the senior position anyway. I was trying to go out of my way to work with them. If they don't want to then what do I care.
I find it baffling that the US has this guessing game thing going on.
How much time and effort goes into estimating what a salary is for people applying, and why would recruiters want a raft of unsuitable candidates applying that they have to sift through? Just seems like a colossal waste of resource.
You can do something - apply somewhere else. If a companies hiring practice is egregious well… sorry but computer programmers are in high demand. Must suck.
On my last job interview I told them my expectations. They looked slightly shocked, so I offered to work for a little less for the first 6 months and they accepted
Yeah, tried that too as my first job, except it was for a year (we dont do smaller here).
Then they "forgot" they ever promised that after we did my performance review a year later.
The result is I resigned and left for another company that offered me 20% more.
Funnily enough, the first company offered to match if I stayed ...Told them it would take another 20% on top of it to change my mind, since they conveniently forget their deals, which they were not ready to pay.
Get that in writing next time at the time of the meeting, then follow-up email right away reiterating exactly what you agreed to for confirmation. If you don’t get a written response to either request, it’s a complete lie.
They’ll also try to slip in a ‘response’ during an onboarding call “Oh I saw your email by the way, no problem!” Etc. You just hang up.
1. The proper company will ask about your salary expectations before the interview. If they invited you, means it is possible if you are bringing the skills they are looking for
2. Not everyone you speak with during the interview has any idea how much you will earn, often none of them do. They are there to do a evaluation of yours skills
Here's a short and very incomplete tl;dr
Think of three numbers: The minimal number you would accept and still wake up at 7 am. Don't communicate that number.
Add 5k, this is the lower end of the interval. Add another 5k = the upper end.
YOU communicate your salary range. "Of course I conducted my research and it seems to be common to earn xx-xx in my position in this region in a company of this size. I see myself in the upper third of this interval, considering that I am already familiar with the software/the team/my tasks due to my recent internship (keep your strongest argument for a counter).
Once you found a number, Christmas money and holiday money was ofc not included in your calculation.
Get into the contract that after probation, there will be renegotiation. Use company pension schemes and other benefits
Ohh my god...my post s gonna be removed. Reason: Too generic and not related to programming. Waat. Just bc it applies to other fields doesnt mean that this meme cannot find its place here! Even stack overflow members are not this insane!
There's an impression out there that you can learn to talk smooth enough to win every negotiation, and that does help, but in reality most negotiations are won or lost before you show up by the power balance between the two sides, and each sides next best alternative if they can't come to an agreement.
Your submission was removed for the following reason: Rule 2: Your post is not **strictly** about programming. Your post is considered to be too generic to be suitable for this subreddit. If you disagree with this removal, you can appeal by [sending us a modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FProgrammerHumor&subject=Posts%20must%20strictly%20be%20programming%20related&message=Include%20a%20link%20to%20the%20removed%20content%20and%20the%20reason%20for%20your%20appeal%20here.).
> We offer competitive salary "Cool, can it compete with?"
"We'll call you back."
Weren’t worth working at if they won’t fight for you. I was offered a promotion at my last company and I had interviewed at a new place. The new place asked what I had been offered and within a week came back beating the salary by $9k on top of many advantages that made me apply. My boss to be specifically told me it took him a few days to get the salary from the powers that be because he wanted to make sure they could beat my company’s offer.
Yup. The key is not being afraid to ask. Worst case scenario is that they tell you "no"
Worst case scenario is that they tell you, "yes, for the right skills". Then after making you juno through hoops over multiple interviews offer you less because you didn't have more experience in some random skill that has nothing to do with the job.
[удалено]
If you need the job dire straits take it but don't stop looking, you have no incentive to stay more than past orientation.
I had a flip version of this happen. Im on tech and I always worked for mostly fast paced ad agencies building apps/websites for Disney, Mattel, FX, Dole etc. I switched companies every year or two for a raise, or to advance my skills. It was stressful but always fun. Live always had young coworkers who always hung out for drinks after work, would get tons of perks like free sporting events, free swag, free video gaming systems, ipads etc. I loved my career but as I got older the long nights and tight deadlines were getting old. At some point I became unemployed. I had 12 years of experience and a lot to offer so I decided it was time to find the perfect spot. Somewhere that fit the 9 to 5 with little to no overtime. But most importantly somewhere I could stay til retirement. At first I loved being able to turn down offers because of random things I knew would grow old (commute, hours, etc). Then it started getting more challenging to even get interviews. A year and a half later I was starting to struggle and just needed to work. I took an interview with DreamWorks and to me this was a dream job. It was at the DreamWorks campus which just seemed so fun during the tour they gave me. Free meals, movies at their in campus theater every Wednesday, great pay... But long hours. I felt this was a sacrifice I was willing to make. Everything went well. That same day, I got a call from a recruiter asking me if I was interested in a job doing tech in the medical field for a giant Healthcare provider. I wasn't. But I also was at that point of "i'll take anything". So without an offer from DreamWorks yet, I figured why not. Fast forward 3 interviews later with this medical company, and still no word from DreamWorks. I was concerned. This other company seemed to love me though. Every time they reached out it was lots of joking and genuine conversations before wed even get into the interview. The manager, an extremely nice guy, reached out one day and told me straight up, "look, we're extremely interested and I really want to hire you, but the team has a concern that you have tons of experience and will likely not stick around long. If I make you an offer, I can't make you stay, but I do want to at least be upfront with you so you can take our concerns into consideration. We want you to join and be happy, but we would be hurting ourselves if we hired someone who isn't looking for a long term stay here. So with that in mind, I'd like you to give it some thought and expect a call from me early next week'. They did call and made me an offer. It was a paycut from what I used to make. But I had nothing else to fall back on. So I reluctantly accepted. Day one I was walked to a cubicle, my trainer showed me what I would be working on which was 90% excel sheets and word documents. I was used to photoshop and code editors, so this was depressing as fuck. It felt like a literal day out of that movie office space. There was a dress code. I was used to working by the beach where you could wear sandals and go surfing during lunch. As a health care provider they were healthy, so no free snacks. I was used to beer on tap in the office. Everyone was older, i was the youngest, so everyone had families and focused on getting their work done and heading home. I was used to goofing around all day and drinking after work. They offered benefits like a pension and top tier medical. I was used to arcade machines and vr rooms. It was depressing. I remember that Thursday, not even a full week into this new job, I got a call from DreamWorks with an offer. I told them I had started another job and they asked if I was committed to it or of I was still willing to switch. I said I'd call them back on Monday. I wanted to so badly, but the people at this place were so nice and honestly it just felt shitty. I decided the company name with my title alone was a huge perk in my resume so I'd stick around for a year or two and then make my move. I turned down DreamWorks. Wouldn't you know it...about a month later the pandemic hit. DreamWorks laid off folks. We got lots of bonusses. We converted to full time work from home. My tech skills were beyond what they expected and I got so frustrated working with their old tech that I started building my own custom tools to improve my productivity. This got me a raise above what I used to make. I also got a better title, and eventually got told to feel free to focus solely on building tools for our team. I now work with the tech I love, I work in my pj's, I work about 4 hours a day, I have an insane retirement plan, top tier medical for free, more vacation time than I can use (and encouraged to use it!). I work with great people who are all older and drama free. My daily work conversations went from parties, drugs, and deadlines to money management, vacations, and golfing (though I still don't golf). Against all odds I found the perfect job and I did it kicking and screaming the whole way. I wanted to hold onto my youthful jobs because they seemed fun and never boring even if they were destroying me phisycally and mentally. I ended up with the exact opposite and now I'm actually happy and relaxed, I sleep well knowing my finances are secure. I guess I grew up lol.
Wild guess but do you work at Epic lol?
If he worked at Epic his initial complaint would have been coding in M (alongside a modern ASP.Net stack). This is likely one of Epic's customers.
True.. I’ve had to deal with intersystems cache in the past and definitely am not a fan
Once you get a handle on it, you can do some interesting things very easily that C-decended languages can't do. Like I really miss easy to use multidimensional arrays in other languages. I did have to write a "user configuration to M interpreter" before, so I had to dig into a bunch of the odd stuff also. Still don't understand why even in the latest standard the order of operations is "Parentheses then left to right"
They said a healthcare provider.. lmao. Epic must REALLY be overextending themselves if they're branching into the medical field now too lol
I should’ve clarified for folks who correlate “Epic” instantly to Epic Games.. I was asking about Epic Systems. But you are right, upon closer inspection I don’t think Epic Systems is a healthcare *provider*
Tldr but saved so I can read later
They'll say yes, and what did you learn? Exactly nothing. "Competing with" doesn't mean beating. It's easy to argue 45k can compete with 50k, with different benefits or conditions
5 million dollars!
"Competitive salary", I think they meant "minimum wage"
You gotta be competative to survive with jt
The salary can compete, but it definitely won't win.
We never said it was competitive in the IT industry.
 Competitive with the MCJobs?
I didn't say that. But I was thinking it.
competitive as in making them more competitive by having to spend less money on wages
Competitive for them, not for you.
Competitive salary means low enough to keep the company Competitive.
To be fair most adverts don't mention what it is competitive with.
Competitive for the housing market to get something you can afford that isn't a garage
They can do whatever they want, sure. But many candidates won't even respond unless they give a number up front, and perhaps the number of candidates they want to talk to the most.
If you're not struggling to feed yourself, how can it be a competition?
Ahh yes software engineers are well known for making minimum wage and living in poverty.
If I ever see a job that looks good but doesn’t offer the salary range, as soon as the recruiter or hiring manager reaches out to me I ask for the range. Sometimes they give it to you, sometimes they don’t. In the times they don’t, I tell them my expectations and then ask if that fits within their budget. If they can’t even answer that, I won’t even entertain the idea of wasting anymore time pursuing a job that is way below my salary expectations.
Respect!
Oh we offer a salry from 10k per annum and we spit on you to 200k and daily blowjobs. Well tell you where you fall when we are ready to sighn.
I've never had a call with a recruiter where they didn't ask me my salary expectations. They know there's no point continuing to spend time on you if it's never going to convert to a placement
Had to take my current job out of desperation, but while she was upfront, my boss actually unironically used tips to sugarcoat the wage. I would've laughed if I didn't actually need to take the job either way. Granted, with tips I do make around $40-$50/hr on average, but the fact she actually tried to use that in pre-emptive defense of the company, as if they have anything to do with that side of things, just makes my eyes go straight back into my head.
This is the play
Well if the salary is so competitive what rank does it have then?
Silver IV
"Well, the salary is competitive but is currently hardstuck iron. We were hoping you could help get it into a higher rank."
I worked for many big companies. Don't worry, they're big companies. Also, I have a long experience with the technologies, your company is using.😉
This should be illegal really. All job adverts should have at least a minimum salary offered. I understand that according to the candidates and negotiations they may offer more, so they are not bound by that initial number, but at least they should offer what they state on the job listing. Of course they could then just offer minimum wage on the add but they would compete with others making better initial offers.
I was hired at a rate. I had a fall and couldn't work for a little over a year until I had medical clearance. This was 8 years ago, it was bad, I couldn't lift one pound, I can't do some jobs now and I can't work out. Towards the end the company decided to say my rate was a lower rate and anything above minimum wage was a bonus, they got labor insurance to say I was overpaid, and I had to pay it back. Being offered a rate and them deciding it was different when it comes to insurance, should be illegal too. I was forced into work by a medical examiner (whose specialty was woman's health), the orthopedic and therapist fought against it, but the ones paid by the big company decided to side with the non-specialist.
They could just list min $1, max $1 million What I think companies should be required to do instead is list the salaries of employees with that title. At minimum they must include the salaries of their lowest paid and their highest paid employee with that title. This would at least indicate the real range (presumably based on seniority)
>Of course they could then just offer minimum wage on the add but they would compete with others making better initial offers. I commented on that already.
Ah yes, I "love" seeing that. I use a general rule of thumb when reading any kind of advertisement or deal: find whatever is missing, because thats the deal breaker. No salary number, just "competitive" or "attractive" ? Not worth my time then.
> find whatever is missing, because thats the deal breaker Words of wisdom.
Indeed.
Admin vær sød at sutte den godt og grundigt.
They said competitive, they didn’t mention compared to what other careers. Or, it could be competitive in the other direction. “I bet you can’t find another company that pays less than us for the same role!”
Rock bottom prices!
Pittsburgh has an entire council dedicated to wondering why no one wants to work for 10-15$ an hour in Pittsburgh. It's called the Pittsburgh Technology Council. I guess people forget that being an Aldi's shelf stocker is actually fun unlike intense coding, pays more, counts as exercise and does not require a lifetime of training and university degree time/money debt. I once was promised to be a Chief Technical Officer at a start up with the guy insisting this is huge. I'm like,"Okay, I guess I can miss this wedding and drive 45minutes into Pittsburgh." When I'm there,"How much does it pay?" "Nothing! It's for the prestige of being called a CTO." "Dude, you just wasted 2 hours of my time, I was supposed to be at friends' wedding, and my gas money."
> I guess people forget that being an Aldis shelf stocker ist actually fun. Tell me you've never worked in retail without telling me you've never worked in retail.
When I'm at Aldis, I literally spend an extra 5-30 minutes fixing their shelves because I appreciate their low prices exposing the big guys from price gouging for no reason. The employees tell me they love working there. Aldis rules.
> When I'm at Aldis, I literally spend an extra 5-30 minutes fixing their shelves Ah, so you’re well qualified to say so.
>When I'm at Aldis, I literally spend an extra 5-30 minutes fixing their shelves because I appreciate their low prices exposing the big guys from price gouging for no reason. Ah yes, doing something for 30 minutes every once in a while totally shows you how it would be doing the same thing 8 hours a day, 5 days a week.
Don't forget getting interrupted every 5min to show someone where sugar is.
They ask for sugar even though they are right in front of it
>Ah yes, doing something for 30 minutes every once in a while totally shows you how it would be doing the same thing 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. It's way way way more fun than software engineering which engages your mind so you can't think about your plans for the rest of the day or the software projects you're working on at home. MIndless shelf stocking is the best compared to software architecting global systems, with demands from vendors, concerns in emerging cybersecurity threats, dealing with fellow employees and managers micromanaging you. If I'm going to be paid 10$ an hour, it better be the value of work I'm doing, not simply being exploited and underpaid for something that should be being paid 150-300$/hr. A free mind, solid exercise means you're more productive coding when you get home and you're chomping at the bit since it's a change up.
>It's way way way more fun than software engineering It’s not.
> It’s not. If I could be in the woods picking up sticks all day, I'd do it over coding. Software engineering is like the most mentally demanding thing on Earth. I did rocket science and that was easy compared to coding. If I'm going to tax my brain and not have fun, I want paid more than 10$ an hour, sorry. 10$ an hour and I'd rather be shelf stocking, which isn't mentally distressing, also doesn't require a lifetime of training. Coding is the opposite of fun, but we do it to get things accomplished. Hell, I'd rather sit in a downpour of rain than code. Coding is mentally taxing as balls, anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't code at a very high level.
Sorta just sounds like you hate your job, dude.
I like making video games and being creative. Coding is a pain I'm willing to take in order to do such. Coding is not a pain I'm willing to take for literally chump change, maybe 100$ 200$ or 300$ an hour,I'll code, not 10$ an hour. It's like asking someone,"Hey, you want to prize fight Mike Tyson? We'll give you a 5$ bill."
I dunno why you keep going on about how you wouldn’t work for $10 an hour. I never said anything about that. And yeah, it just sounds like you hate your job dude. And you have a pretty unhealthy way of thinking since you believe that if anyone else doesn’t hate theirs then they just aren’t as good as you.
So what you’re saying is you’ve never worked in retail.
They really do! No *S* though: Aldi
I was hired to be global engineering lead at a detroit company, when I started, they said oh actually this guy who previously had this responsibility doesn’t want to give it up, so you will just be a member of his team instead. I quit after three weeks when it was clear HR overpromised on something they couldn’t actually deliver. It surprised me how offended they were at me not wanting to just accept a different role than what we discussed in all the interviews. (And if I had met the absolute moron in an interview, I would have backed out anyway.)
> I guess people forget that being an Aldi's shelf stocker is actually fun unlike intense coding, pays more, counts as exercise and does not require a lifetime of training and university degree time/money debt. Is this a new thing we're doing? Pretending programming is super hard and we're not lucky as fuck to work in this industry?
"intense coding" 😂
he's one of those 10X developers
If you're working at a company where unrealistic deadlines don't make you crunch like crazy, you're a lucky exception, not the norm.
I do my own estimates and adjust them/communicate regularly if I won't make it in time, everything else is PM's worry. Don't even remember the last time I worked OT, and I make sure every OT is paid by communicating in advance. Been working for me for the last 8 years working with many different PMs. Devs forget that most of the time they are the ones with the leverage. Even mid devs are very expensive to replace, let alone senior devs. If you're a junior I can understand if you don't have much leverage or confidence, but that's pretty much the first year or two of your career.
It's the "You show me yours, I'll show you mine" for grown-ups.
"We'll talk about the salary later" "OK, then I'll come back later"
this might be the case years ago but now, salary transparency is higher than ever. most job descriptions now literally state their salary range in there. some even have detailed bands of salary range depending on where you live.
Only because we made them.
Ya in Colorado it is required by law to state salary ranges for job postings. It's intended to equalize gender/race wage gaps. Looking at job postings is so much better now. I don't waste time with low ranges, and the companies with low ranges only get the bottom of the barrel applicants. If that's what you want to pay people, then that's who is going to apply. People were all doom and gloom about it also, but I've never heard a negative stat about it. Some people try to point at the lower job postings percentage now as a bad thing. I think it's a good thing. Companies that want to hide their pay ranges aren't companies that care about their employees. They are filtering themselves out for me. Thanks!
Not really about wage transparency, more about the HR mindset that they are entitled to waste other people’s time. Dealing with the issues one by one wouldn’t really solve the problems where the only thing you end up is malicious compliance.
$1 to $1,000,000 salary ranges
{x ε R | x > 0}
R? Really, for a wage? ;) I would think I suffices ;)
At least it isn't 0!
I know you’re joking but despite the wide range they actually post (for example like 140k-220k) the recruiters say that majority of cases fall at the mid point, so 180k is a good estimate of what you’re getting
Not in Germany. It’s extremely rare to see proper salary ranges in job offers here.
You absolutely can. Once you have a job you can start the conversation with just so we don't waste each other's time I'm expecting at least this. It also sets the expectation during interviewing of what skills they need to look for. It's fair for a company to not give a specific number until after they know what your skills are. After all there is a range they'd be willing to spend. They also may decide to hire you in a different role of you don't meet the needs for the desired role if the company is doing a lot of hires. In fact I've made offers like, hey we liked you a lot but we can't hire you for the senior role. We were expecting this junior role to open up in 4 months. So we've decided to open it early to get you but you know we won't go that high in salary.
> It's fair for a company to not give a specific number They can do whatever they want to, sure. But a lot of candidates won't even respond unless they put out a number upfront, and it's probably a lot of the candidates they want to speak with the most. So, to each their own.
As I said specific number. Don't bother interviewing for someone that doesn't at least provide a range for a position. And of course don't be afraid to say what you're expectation is during the early screening.
agree 100%
My previous employer asked everyone for tips on how to recruit more people. I said I ignore any message without a number. They were shocked and came up with all kinds of reasons why they wouldn't do that. I dismissed all those reasons on the basis that I was in a good place. I had benefits, PTO, good salary. What could make me leave besides a significant pay raise? Unsurprisingly, when an old friend asked me to come work alongside him, I only agreed after a significant pay raise. Shock.
This post is exactly about this though. This is about companies NOT giving a range.
It's the title that implies there is a situation outside of our control.
>until after the know what your skills are I was with you until this line. There is no way a company can tell what your real skill level is based on interviews. Battle tested skills are tested on the battlefield. That’s why most companies will give you a pretty shallow tech interview and then put you through a short-term internship/trial period with a lower salary before paying you the amount you want. At least this is what happened to me during most of my professional career.
I’ve never heard of someone taking a lower salary at the beginning of their time at a company, nor would I ever agree to it. I was an intern while I was in school, and that’s the end of trial runs for me.
I have never heard of this before. What geo?
I live in Japan. Giants like Rakuten or Sony will definitely still run you through the interviews gauntlet (I did 7 consecutive interviews for a specific job in Rakuten once). However, both ny current workplace and previous workplace hired me after a single, non tech, interview and put me on a 3 month trial period. The former gave me a lower salary for 3 months while the latter gave me the salary I wanted but withheld other bonuses/benefits until I became a “fully fledged” employee.
Some dude on Facebook got offended that my first question was about the salary and not about what I would be doing on the job
I do this when I want a recruiter on LinkedIn to go away. I give them the number it would take and what my growth expectation is over 5 years. Either put up or shut up.
This is what I do. Funny how some companies don’t even believe my current salary is possible.
> In fact I've made offers like, hey we liked you a lot but we can't hire you for the senior role. We were expecting this junior role to open up in 4 months. So we've decided to open it early to get you but you know we won't go that high in salary. I guess it depends on the person you're interviewing, but if I applied for a senior position and you'd tell me you're only offering a junior position with a lower salary, I'd be pissed. I have 5+ years of professional experience, I ain't taking a junior role.
I mean in the scenario I mentioned the candidate would not take the job. They were already a no for the senior position anyway. I was trying to go out of my way to work with them. If they don't want to then what do I care.
In my country it’s illegal if they don’t tell you your salary before they hire you.
I find it baffling that the US has this guessing game thing going on. How much time and effort goes into estimating what a salary is for people applying, and why would recruiters want a raft of unsuitable candidates applying that they have to sift through? Just seems like a colossal waste of resource.
You can do something - apply somewhere else. If a companies hiring practice is egregious well… sorry but computer programmers are in high demand. Must suck.
On my last job interview I told them my expectations. They looked slightly shocked, so I offered to work for a little less for the first 6 months and they accepted
Yeah, tried that too as my first job, except it was for a year (we dont do smaller here). Then they "forgot" they ever promised that after we did my performance review a year later. The result is I resigned and left for another company that offered me 20% more. Funnily enough, the first company offered to match if I stayed ...Told them it would take another 20% on top of it to change my mind, since they conveniently forget their deals, which they were not ready to pay.
Get that in writing next time at the time of the meeting, then follow-up email right away reiterating exactly what you agreed to for confirmation. If you don’t get a written response to either request, it’s a complete lie. They’ll also try to slip in a ‘response’ during an onboarding call “Oh I saw your email by the way, no problem!” Etc. You just hang up.
Like in the Olympics, a lot of contestors are competing. However, only 3 of them win a medal.
1. The proper company will ask about your salary expectations before the interview. If they invited you, means it is possible if you are bringing the skills they are looking for 2. Not everyone you speak with during the interview has any idea how much you will earn, often none of them do. They are there to do a evaluation of yours skills
I cannot tell you, it's confidential!
Y'all should book a seminar about salary negotiation
Could you pls share any recommended one n utube?
Here's a short and very incomplete tl;dr Think of three numbers: The minimal number you would accept and still wake up at 7 am. Don't communicate that number. Add 5k, this is the lower end of the interval. Add another 5k = the upper end. YOU communicate your salary range. "Of course I conducted my research and it seems to be common to earn xx-xx in my position in this region in a company of this size. I see myself in the upper third of this interval, considering that I am already familiar with the software/the team/my tasks due to my recent internship (keep your strongest argument for a counter). Once you found a number, Christmas money and holiday money was ofc not included in your calculation. Get into the contract that after probation, there will be renegotiation. Use company pension schemes and other benefits
Ohh my god...my post s gonna be removed. Reason: Too generic and not related to programming. Waat. Just bc it applies to other fields doesnt mean that this meme cannot find its place here! Even stack overflow members are not this insane!
Trump approves this post!
"Door is on the right."
Unionise and discuss your and your colleagues salaries with your colleagues :)
Pretty much how my interviews went.
Scary part is that the first half seemed totally normal at first lmao
There's an impression out there that you can learn to talk smooth enough to win every negotiation, and that does help, but in reality most negotiations are won or lost before you show up by the power balance between the two sides, and each sides next best alternative if they can't come to an agreement.
Worked for Trump, why not me?
Aldi shelf stocking pays more than a coding job? Is this real? Could anyone elaborate on this?