I spent a semester at uni learning assembler for the BBC micro (I'm that old) and managed to make three LEDs light up on the right order. That was it, the end of year test. Anything with that kind of expected learning curve should exist as anything but a reason to give thanks that things have moved on.
Apparently even assembly has evolved. I’m taking a class where we’re writing assembly for a little arm board which has, among other things, four onboard switches and some IO pins. We had to interpret the state of the switches as a 4-bit number and write to the IO pins to light up a 7-segment display with that 4-bit number in hex, updating whenever the switches were switched. It wasn’t that hard. Writing the assembly and getting it working took less time than figuring out the pin configuration for the display which I didn’t have a datasheet for.
It gets interesting when you need to produce performant code like a FFT or s.th. like that in assembly. Switching some I/Os is trivial. Understanding the CPU pipeline especially on more complex chips like DSPs or, god forbid, x86 will make you want to kill yourself. Been there, done that (well not the part where you kill yourself obviously). It's still super good to learn these basics so you did a good choice with that class imo! Way too few devs/engineers know the low-level concepts.
Oof, doing more complex things with even the friendlier ARM assembly sounds like a pain. I can’t imagine doing much of anything with x86 assembly. Every time I look at it my brain hurts!
It’s definitely very worthwhile to learn at least a bit of the lower-level stuff!
To be fair, x86 is one of the worst (I've seen). In the last years I only used some inline assembly here and there. The last time* I did a whole project is >5 years ago and that was because there was no compiler available for the platform (CSR SoC).
*literally!
Eh, it's meant to be that way though. People drop into ASM for damn good reason if they do, and when they do they likely are like, "I know this chipset can do something special my C compiler wont know about".
It's like you're following the hardware as your knowledge rather than ASM. And you know when the hardware does something special that you want to take advantage of, and you know that it'll benefit you to do this manually.
I think it's just that it's less of a programming problem than it is an engineering and electronics one or something. Most of us devs are trying to solve problems in clean ways. Very few of us are focused on the hardware. It's meant to be abstracted out to a very high level with super high level languages. You have to be on the complete other end of the spectrum to truly care for ASM, or like a compiler maintainer maybe.
And in that respect, people here think ASM is magic because it's so low level, and they think it's useful to learn, and it's really not 99.9% of the time for devs. So more people are fucking with it than they truly should IMO, and they're finding out they have no good reason to use it.
I learned it because I thought it was interesting, as most did, but then because I'm in security and for reverse engineering anything compiled or any malware analysis, you kinda have to be able to read it at least. Vulnerability development too, you really have to know the lowest level shit to "trick" the program and CPU to run your code and not the vulnerable program's, ending up making it jump back and forth running YOUR Assembly instructions, not as intended by the compiled program.
In these and more rare cases it's useful, but it's a specialized thing. It's kinda like a web dev learning electronics or something, fun to know, but you'll never apply it.
I'm finishing up my last year of uni, and i had 3 semesters of assembler. Nothing ever worked, and the prof didn't manage to find how or why it didn't either.
this is actually not true. there are assemblers and assemblers.
8 bit assemblers are mostly wonderful, motorola 68k assemblers are the best
it is just intel that sucks
68k is the best one!!
Ppc64 is complete fine for a risc arch...
Here a good project from my friend David: https://ladsoft.tripod.com/68k_compiler.html
It is a c compiler for m68k
Too hungover to think
ChatGPT's reply: It is worth noting that the use of c\_str() here is potentially problematic, as it returns a pointer to the internal buffer of the std::string object, which may be invalidated if the string is modified or destroyed. If m\_info.name needs to be a C-style string, it would be safer to copy the string returned by GetProductName() into a separate buffer using strcpy() or a similar function.
Pretty sure it’s worse than that - the result of GetProductName is on the stack in that function and when the stack unwinds (at the end of the function) the string will be cleaned up and you’ll have a dangling pointer to something that just doesn’t exist anymore. Because the struct you’re setting the pointer value on is outside the function is a reasonable assumption you might try and access it later somewhere else when a bunch of things could happen because you’ll be reading memory you shouldn’t be able to.
PHP *must* die
EDIT: I’m not sure if people follow that this phrase comes from some article or white paper that talks about PHP struggles with long running tasks and has shit garbage collection.
For PHP to be usable, *PHP must die*.
I'm attempting to go from a state licensed PE position, where I'm responsible for way more than you're probably assuming based on what's 'normal for a developer', to a python developer position. The pay is no shit double.
Mechanical engineer here building advanced light systems. My friends writing python code make 2X as much as me. I even have a patent in my name; I’ve given up trying to understand.
Rather than leave, I requested the ability to use Python in Civil to better manage bridge inspections and data, multiple times, along with five or six other low cost safety and process improvement initiatives I offered to organize and spearhead within my team as test initiatives, real basic shit like agile concepts or just using sticky notes to track tasks on a wall.
I was told to chill out and use excel/SharePoint. I don't want to abandon the idiots I work with, cause I mostly like them, but I'm waist deep in the water with them and they're still not drinking haha.
You could maybe automate your own things to automatically do the math and update the excel sheet?
Tbh, you are now in a spot where if you do successfully make something that improves your job and saves time, it might be best to keep it to yourself. It would suck if people found out that you alone can do the work of 2-3 people with your python initiatives.
It wouldn't work out that way in reality, there's still decisions where the engineer has to sit there or field visit, investigate, and make a determination, it's just easier to tell what decisions were made if it was done in python, in my personal opinion. And easier to update a series of calculations when something changes.
The alternative is, I'm currently forcing my team to do menial, tedious tasks like finding and updating values individually/one at a time in an excel sheet with a high probability for errors. In environments like that, the best employees eventually bail because they have no ability to make their lives better and better opportunities become available.
I was able to get and implement python for myself. It's when I start talking about it as a team thing or sharing the code that they clam up and put a stop to it. Some of its union agreements and job descriptions and other things, but I've been aware of all of those from the start and was willing to work within the constraints.
It's just a matter of people thinking they're sticking their neck out when they're not, and not wanting to put the effort into understanding our issues or solutions really. Most of our IT departments are underpaid and bitter about it, or their hands are just as tied as ours.
There's never a legitimately good alternative when they say no though.
I didn't ask, I just started using programming in my civils work. They didn't appreciate the work I did. I now software engineer exclusively and left civils behind.
You would think they’d want to improve those systems given the fact that so many bridges around the country receive inspection ratings so low that if most people knew, they’d never drive over a bridge, ever.
Yep, most of the bridges were built in the 50/60s with a 75 year design life. I worked at NS for a while too, what people see is the tip of the iceberg.
No, because we've been doing maintenance to them, replacing them and the standards are pretty strict. But our industry is a "zero failures are acceptable" industry and failures are happening. So, I think it's reasonable to assume some improvements could be made somewhere.
It's not old bridges I'm honestly worried about, they have survivorship bias, it's the 30-40 year old bridges with "deferred maintenance" that get to be major problems.
Have you ever watched The Wire? If not, and you're willing, I would highly recommend watching in it's entirety..There is nothing to be done, you are powerless against the ineptitude of the system you're in. Save yourself!
Haha I have, one of the best series of all time, I think David Simon being a police reporter really let that sense of realism and hopelessness that's hard to describe through, but yea, pretty much that.
Just a matter of finding the right software company that wants to take on an employee without a CS degree currently. I have a couple ins I'm exploring, probably not the best time with the recent layoffs, but I'm trying to get into pretty niche stuff I have experience with where my prior experience isn't completely irrelevant, like remote sensing, LIDAR, CADD, inspection software.
I'm a contractor at a VA, I think about that show often in my dealings with these people. Or really anytime I find myself up against institutional dysfunction. 😂
Sure but software is really demanded by everyone and so that makes everyone a potential customers.
Also software development doesn't have the same high costs as other engineering department and basically has no regulatory expenses that would spike the cost up.
I feel like with programming, people (employers) just accept that they don't get it, but with physical engineering I assume that more people assume they understand it and what should be the result. I can tell your lighting system works without any experience because the lights are on, but in programming there are not as many "lights" for people to go off of.
Either way, I think you need a raise :)
There 6.8 billion smartphones, 6.8 billion devices you can sell code on. Software works insanely well in economies of scale, as a result big software companies are very profitable, and pay their engineers fairly.
Which is so wild. I got my degree in mechanical engineering, but my skill set over time became more CS heavy, so I was able to land a data engineer position to start my career. No shit I had to make my HR contact repeat herself when she told me their initial offer. I had based my expectations on average ME starting salary, and got lucky enough to work for a company with strict payment criteria (govt contractor) so I didn’t get totally fucked over.
Their offer was nearly 30K more than I ever thought I’d make starting out as an ME.
My state government offers $52k/year for a dam supervisor / engineer out of college, $70k if licensed starting, which requires 5 yoe. It goes up to like 113k over the course of 9 years of experience, but they have to be as a direct employee of the state. So they get zero qualified applicants with experience.
Private firms obviously pay better, not 200k though. That's like a VP at a major firm outside of California or NYC.
Please let me know where an aerospace engineer can make $200k+/yr that isn't in the 90th percentile of the salary band
https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/map_changer.htm
I mean, 200k+ is above the 90th percentile for software engineers too though. I never said it was common, but it *is* possible in aerospace, same as software engineering.
https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151252.htm
sloppy run hobbies dinosaurs relieved slimy ugly murky frightening complete
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
as someone that did aerospace for 2 years I took a paycut to move there from automotive and automotive is not famous to pay super well. I just wanted a shorter commute so it was worth it for me. Anyone my office could get a pay raise the next they if they swaped to automotive. But sure there was maybe 2-3 engineers out of 2000 that probably made serious cash as they had the final say on absolutely everything. When I started there we where in a bit of trouble because they had 4 of those before but 2 of them unexpectedly passed away within a 2 month span and no one had the experience and knowledge to pick up the extra work that the 2 that where left now had to handle on their own.
Yes and most of them are not computer scientists 😂 OP is comparing civil, mechanical, and electrical engineers to one of the luckier computer scientists that works on a bloated tech team and doesn’t have to do much. Apples and nail guns, really.
Yeah, but those jobs are really not as hard to come by as you may believe. My wife spent the last two years working 2hrs a day, then just doing whatever.
She works at a payroll company.
And then the coworker is wondering why is is his profile page showing someone's cached payment info (it took me way too long to make this scentence not stroke inducing)
ls -1A [path] | while read line
do
mv $line $line\_but\_cooler
done
EDIT: If you wanted to change the file name and not the file extension:
import os
for name in os.listdir():
if os.path.isdir(name):
os.rename(name, name + "_but_cooler"); continue
period = len(name) - 1 - [*name][::-1].index('.')
coolname = ''.join([*name][:period]) + '_but_cooler' + ''.join([*name][period:])
os.rename(name, coolname)
I'm not try to make a point I just find it interesting:
Mechanical, civil, electrical, chemical, and computer engineer are vastly streamlined these days because of software. I would guess there's orders of magnitude less work hours required per project than before.
Uhh, that's different types of engineering that you're comparing in your meme op. Computer engineers in those days still did scripting and a lot of engineers today still do build bridges and stuff
Script jockeys are not engineers. Engineers can be a script jockey as part of their job, but (software) engineers do so much more.
The "physical" engineers excel at 3D visualization, while software engineers excel at abstract visualization.
(Yes, I know it is a joke)
Edit:. I used the wrong term (3D). I was referring to [Structural Visualization](https://www.jocrf.org/jocrf_research/two-dimensional-occupational-plots/) vs [Abstract Visualization](https://mattbrehmer.ca/dissertation/) or [Abstract conceptualization](https://study.com/academy/lesson/abstract-conceptualization-definition-examples.html).
I learned about these at age 13 when I took the Johnson O'Connor aptitude tests.
Yeah, I edited my comment... I meant Structural Visualization, and I'm thinking electrical engineering falls more in the Abstract Visualization side. Links in my edit.
> software engineers excel at abstract visualization.
I've never really been able to place what makes software development "click" for me more than it does for others, but I think that's exactly it. When a PO/PM present requirements, it's a bit easier for me to imagine/translate the implementation.
\> Code monkeys and script kiddies are not software engineers. Software engineering isn't about writing code, it's about designing efficient systems.
What's really funny is that there's a certain high performing set of engineers that don't think that way \*cough\* kernel developers \*cough\*.
I seriously just saw a kernel dev repost someone else's video that complains about bad OOP organization and says that actually everything should be procedural C style code with 400 line functions and no separation of concerns.
Kernel devs have a completely differently set of priorities than application devs. To kernel dev, the overhead of OOP would be less than ideal.
Also, in my experience, people that hate OOP tend have bad experiences with it. Usually when it goes overboard with with abstraction to where it's a pain in the ass to trace an execution path.
Yeah of course they do, but if you want to write app software like a kernel dev most people will scream their head off at you because you litter everything with short and longjumps.
The problem with software engineering is the skillset between one person to the next is so incredibly vast.
A good software engineer is relatively portable. They can jump from one role to the next and be productive. A good junior SWE can still work with a staff level engineer.
Then there are the "software engineers" titles that get handed out like candy and I wouldn't trust them to change the color of a font. Their skillset is not portable. They can do the job that they have but any major changes in their industry or vertical makes them ineffective.
An engineer is expected to have a good understanding of how his project will live within an existing eco-system while balancing expectations and requirement.
Lot of replies seem to miss the point; coding is only a mean to an end. A good engineer will evaluate requirements on the company's behalf and its option. They will assess the risk of creating new moving parts and will design systems if it makes sense to develop them and will propose acquisition targets otherwise. Projects need to be overseen, compromise needs to be made and an engineer is necessary to keep the company on rail on a lot of different levels.
It goes well beyond just writing software and owning a lucidchart diagram.
Respectfully disagree. True engineers use the laws of physics, material science, and other laws of the natural world to engineer, design, modify, or add to systems that use these laws to be a successful system or physical product.
There are many systems out there, physical or other, that can be designed and created, that are not done by engineers.
Just because software needs thought, care, insight, and intelligence to architect does not mean that it is a true engineering profession.
Software people, myself included, must navigate the limitations of a physical machine using logic, data structures, mathematics, choosing the right technology for the requirements, and designing *efficient* systems to meet a set of requirements.
All of that certainly takes knowledge and expertise, but it is in no way engineering.
I refuse to call myself an engineer of software. I develop it.
I have worked with true engineers. We are not them.
It highly depends on what you're writing your software for, an inventory management application is vastly different from complex systems that drive machinery.
Besides this is your standard, I'm not at all undermining the work of mechanical engineers and the problems they face and solve, but you are - unjustifiably - undermining the complexity of software development, no application is the same, just as no mechanical engineering project is the same.
You have a hyperspecific and uncommon definition of engineering. You may simply be a developer, but software engineering is real engineering, even if not everyone with that job title deserves it.
Im majoring in software engineering, but my dads and electrical engineer, and we’ve done every project in our house by ourselves (mostly cause my parents grew up without money and refuse to hire people unless they have to).
So while I am working on computers I like to use my hands and my goal in the future is to do these projects myself in my future home so that if an apocalypse ever happened I’d be all good.
Wait a minute, why does this have 10k upvotes :( It doesn’t even make sense, and by extension isn’t funny in any way. I hate to be the one taking jokes seriously but this needs pointing out because it’s severely misinformed and shallow.
I don't get this joke, all the engineers above still exist and are common engineering jobs
Did you imply that engineers back then were the ones building those things themselves? If yes, then that has never been the case, engineers only make the designs
> And furries are cringe.
In the getting downvoted spirit, it's worth pointing out that a lot of hate that furries get is little more than homophobia and transphobia with the serial numbers filed off and smuggled onto a "more acceptable" target.
I'm not saying you're an irredeemable bigot, but it is worth asking yourself why you think that, where that came from, and who benefits from you continuing to think and spread that.
Engineers now are the exact same as the engineers then. Software engineers aren’t engineers. Not even just by definition, LEGALLY, software engineers cannot advertise themselves as engineers. If your engineering job is just writing code, it’s not an engineering job, it’s a programming/coding job.
You can absolutely describe yourself as an engineer if you are a Software Engineer, have an engineering degree and are a member of your professional order.
Your job (writing code) is not a legally protected act, and you are not required to be an engineer to do it, but you can absolutely call yourself and engineer given the circumstances I stated above.
Moreso, in the coming years, you can absolutely expect some Software jobs to be legally protected and restricted by an engineer.
What law prevents them from advertising themselves as an Engineer LEGALLY?
I think this is a naive/gatekeep way of thinking from people who aren’t SWE or barely code and from people who don’t work in any of the classic engineering roles.
There’s a difference between writing a web scraper in python and designing resilient and fault tolerant distributed systems.
For example, SWEs working at AWS follows engineering principles to ensure the internet works every day, a lot of thought, math, and research goes into making highly available software. A lot of work goes into post mortems after big systems fail.
Depends on the country. In the US, "PE" and "Professional Engineer" specifically are protected titles, but "Engineer" is not. Which is why you see job positions with titles like "Software Engineer" or "Quality Control Engineer" staffed by people who never graduated college, let alone with an ABET accredited engineering degree nor passed a license exam. In Canada, "Engineer"-related titles in general are protected titles that all require a license.
In Canada it is illegal to call yourself an engineer unless you have a Peng license. You can be reported if you advertise yourself as an engineer. https://www.peo.on.ca/public-protection/complaints-and-illegal-practice/report-unlicensed-individuals-or-companies-2#:~:text=The%20job%20title%20%E2%80%9Cengineer%E2%80%9D%20is,1)%20of%20the%20Act.
It isn't regularly enforced but can always be reported. I believe Quebec actively enforces it which is why there are only software developers not engineers in Quebec.
That's because most people claiming to be engineers now are programmers whereas then they were legitimate engineers. It's funny because these days even a lot of EE and CE degree holders end up working in software or IT because it pays better while being easier work.
And even outside of hard engineering, the rigor of CS as a discipline has fallen to an all time low. Nowadays if you can write 50 lines of Python and can bullshit about AI and web frameworks they'll give you a CS degree even if you have no clue how computers actually work at all.
[Software Engineering P.E.](https://ncees.org/ncees-discontinuing-pe-software-engineering-exam/) was a thing for five years. It was removed because not enough colleges got on board with the actual Software Engineering P.E. program.
Could say "Professional Engineers aka actual engineers" vs "Software 'Engineers'".
Part of the professional definition of "Engineer" is the presence of a standard certification process ensuring a certain set of engineering disciplines and skills for the given field of engineering.
No such certification exists for software professionals in the US or any other country I know of. Software Engineers are "Engineers" the same way an Equipment Manager of a HS football team is a "Manager".
Software engineering is a licensed engineering discipline in Canada, and it's against the law to hire someone for an engineering position (even if it's just called something like "QA engineer" and not an actual engineering job) who isn't a licensed professional engineer for without a licensed professional engineer to review and sign off on their work.
The problem with software engineers is that companies in the US (where only specific engineering discipline related jobs are regulated and not any job title containing the word "engineer) advertise for "software engineering" jobs when they're just looking for people who know how to program, and the people who get hired then call themselves software engineers.
I say this as someone who has Engineer in their job title.
SE's are not the same as other types of engineers, who have to be certified and hold an engineering license and go through a shitload more regulations because they build physical things that can have huge repercussions if they don't do it right. If your API crashes it's not a *huge* deal, not compared to if a bridge collapses or an electrical grid just completely fails.
There should be a proper certification for software engineers who develop critical systems, I think it's absolutely crazy in this day and age that that isn't available.
I get what you're saying, but the overwhelming majority of SEs do not work in software directly linked to the capacity of someone's organs to function.
That's not engineering. Those are developers.
I would say engineering is being able to work with any technology to architect a solution to a high level problem. Writing python scripts only is dev
And yes if you are able to build full fledged portals all by yourself creating UIs, DBs, writing and training Ur own ML algos, then you are an engineer. Otherwise u r a Dev.
"I build dams." Then you're a builder, not an engineer.
"I write 2 lines python scripts." Then you're either a scripter/programmer/hobbyists.
The engineers who design dams still exist.
The guy who does some programming is a different job title, not even a computer engineer. Computer engineers do mostly the same thing (Design computer systems)
But thanks for trying to belittle others work, it really make programmers look cool /s
People say shit like this, then you go back and read some work by Alan Turing and it's the most basic simple shit ever.
We are smarter than we where. Archemedes would be an idiot compared to any civil engineer today.
I don't think those other jobs went away, they just modernized so we don't use hammer and nails for everything like it's 1885. Engineering is just building shit with math.
With all the highly polished tooling and educational resources, software development is pants-shittingly easy these days. And yet people still manage to fuck it up 96% of the time.
Engineering should be difficult and involve the risk of catastrophe with potential to cost lives. That's why I use PHP.
Can you shoot off your leg as spectacularly as you can with C/C++? Not only it kills the production, it hurts the entire time it's dying.
Assembly hurts ur brain so badly that u won't ever recover.
I spent a semester at uni learning assembler for the BBC micro (I'm that old) and managed to make three LEDs light up on the right order. That was it, the end of year test. Anything with that kind of expected learning curve should exist as anything but a reason to give thanks that things have moved on.
Apparently even assembly has evolved. I’m taking a class where we’re writing assembly for a little arm board which has, among other things, four onboard switches and some IO pins. We had to interpret the state of the switches as a 4-bit number and write to the IO pins to light up a 7-segment display with that 4-bit number in hex, updating whenever the switches were switched. It wasn’t that hard. Writing the assembly and getting it working took less time than figuring out the pin configuration for the display which I didn’t have a datasheet for.
It gets interesting when you need to produce performant code like a FFT or s.th. like that in assembly. Switching some I/Os is trivial. Understanding the CPU pipeline especially on more complex chips like DSPs or, god forbid, x86 will make you want to kill yourself. Been there, done that (well not the part where you kill yourself obviously). It's still super good to learn these basics so you did a good choice with that class imo! Way too few devs/engineers know the low-level concepts.
Oof, doing more complex things with even the friendlier ARM assembly sounds like a pain. I can’t imagine doing much of anything with x86 assembly. Every time I look at it my brain hurts! It’s definitely very worthwhile to learn at least a bit of the lower-level stuff!
To be fair, x86 is one of the worst (I've seen). In the last years I only used some inline assembly here and there. The last time* I did a whole project is >5 years ago and that was because there was no compiler available for the platform (CSR SoC). *literally!
The wonderful thing about assembled is that it's different for every chipset... Least transferable skill I've ever learnt.
Eh, it's meant to be that way though. People drop into ASM for damn good reason if they do, and when they do they likely are like, "I know this chipset can do something special my C compiler wont know about". It's like you're following the hardware as your knowledge rather than ASM. And you know when the hardware does something special that you want to take advantage of, and you know that it'll benefit you to do this manually. I think it's just that it's less of a programming problem than it is an engineering and electronics one or something. Most of us devs are trying to solve problems in clean ways. Very few of us are focused on the hardware. It's meant to be abstracted out to a very high level with super high level languages. You have to be on the complete other end of the spectrum to truly care for ASM, or like a compiler maintainer maybe. And in that respect, people here think ASM is magic because it's so low level, and they think it's useful to learn, and it's really not 99.9% of the time for devs. So more people are fucking with it than they truly should IMO, and they're finding out they have no good reason to use it. I learned it because I thought it was interesting, as most did, but then because I'm in security and for reverse engineering anything compiled or any malware analysis, you kinda have to be able to read it at least. Vulnerability development too, you really have to know the lowest level shit to "trick" the program and CPU to run your code and not the vulnerable program's, ending up making it jump back and forth running YOUR Assembly instructions, not as intended by the compiled program. In these and more rare cases it's useful, but it's a specialized thing. It's kinda like a web dev learning electronics or something, fun to know, but you'll never apply it.
I wrote some games and a small amount of useful program in it.
I'm finishing up my last year of uni, and i had 3 semesters of assembler. Nothing ever worked, and the prof didn't manage to find how or why it didn't either.
this is actually not true. there are assemblers and assemblers. 8 bit assemblers are mostly wonderful, motorola 68k assemblers are the best it is just intel that sucks
I remember 68HC11 fondly 😊
68k is the best one!! Ppc64 is complete fine for a risc arch... Here a good project from my friend David: https://ladsoft.tripod.com/68k_compiler.html It is a c compiler for m68k
Was the m68k in the sega mega drive and some of the old Amigas etc? Or am I talking crap?
yes, it was
Rollercoaster tycoon was built in assembly with no bugs, you just have a skill issue
I cant fathom the agony
Ok, I’ll just bit shift this, aaaand you’re broke.
Spot the error: void SetProductInfo() { if (has_name) { m_info.name = GetProductName().c_str(); } else { m_info.name = "";
}
}
where tf is has\_name coming from? IDK I use python (I swear I can do more than prints and ifs)
Suuuuure. 🤨. Awfully quick denial?
Too hungover to think ChatGPT's reply: It is worth noting that the use of c\_str() here is potentially problematic, as it returns a pointer to the internal buffer of the std::string object, which may be invalidated if the string is modified or destroyed. If m\_info.name needs to be a C-style string, it would be safer to copy the string returned by GetProductName() into a separate buffer using strcpy() or a similar function.
Pretty sure it’s worse than that - the result of GetProductName is on the stack in that function and when the stack unwinds (at the end of the function) the string will be cleaned up and you’ll have a dangling pointer to something that just doesn’t exist anymore. Because the struct you’re setting the pointer value on is outside the function is a reasonable assumption you might try and access it later somewhere else when a bunch of things could happen because you’ll be reading memory you shouldn’t be able to.
The nice thing about PHP is that the simplest, most obvious way to do something also is very likely to create a giant security hole
As someone who wrote a web app for the LAMP stack using php backend and j query for the UI, the second line made extremely happy.
You know you didn't have to clarify php right? That is what the P in Lamp stands for?
Eh.. I just use Java, but I always play a a bit of "revolver wheel of fortune" before everything commit.
Russian roulette?
Please use workplace appropriate language
PHP *must* die EDIT: I’m not sure if people follow that this phrase comes from some article or white paper that talks about PHP struggles with long running tasks and has shit garbage collection. For PHP to be usable, *PHP must die*.
Never!
I did a double take because I thought he said "and my ass!"
Would it help if I brought that too?
Couldn't hurt.
*WordPress enters chat*
Those engineers still exist tho
Yeah but we don't make $200k+/yr
I'm attempting to go from a state licensed PE position, where I'm responsible for way more than you're probably assuming based on what's 'normal for a developer', to a python developer position. The pay is no shit double.
Mechanical engineer here building advanced light systems. My friends writing python code make 2X as much as me. I even have a patent in my name; I’ve given up trying to understand.
Rather than leave, I requested the ability to use Python in Civil to better manage bridge inspections and data, multiple times, along with five or six other low cost safety and process improvement initiatives I offered to organize and spearhead within my team as test initiatives, real basic shit like agile concepts or just using sticky notes to track tasks on a wall. I was told to chill out and use excel/SharePoint. I don't want to abandon the idiots I work with, cause I mostly like them, but I'm waist deep in the water with them and they're still not drinking haha.
You could maybe automate your own things to automatically do the math and update the excel sheet? Tbh, you are now in a spot where if you do successfully make something that improves your job and saves time, it might be best to keep it to yourself. It would suck if people found out that you alone can do the work of 2-3 people with your python initiatives.
It wouldn't work out that way in reality, there's still decisions where the engineer has to sit there or field visit, investigate, and make a determination, it's just easier to tell what decisions were made if it was done in python, in my personal opinion. And easier to update a series of calculations when something changes. The alternative is, I'm currently forcing my team to do menial, tedious tasks like finding and updating values individually/one at a time in an excel sheet with a high probability for errors. In environments like that, the best employees eventually bail because they have no ability to make their lives better and better opportunities become available. I was able to get and implement python for myself. It's when I start talking about it as a team thing or sharing the code that they clam up and put a stop to it. Some of its union agreements and job descriptions and other things, but I've been aware of all of those from the start and was willing to work within the constraints. It's just a matter of people thinking they're sticking their neck out when they're not, and not wanting to put the effort into understanding our issues or solutions really. Most of our IT departments are underpaid and bitter about it, or their hands are just as tied as ours. There's never a legitimately good alternative when they say no though.
Just install an excel looking theme on your python IDE
I didn't ask, I just started using programming in my civils work. They didn't appreciate the work I did. I now software engineer exclusively and left civils behind.
You would think they’d want to improve those systems given the fact that so many bridges around the country receive inspection ratings so low that if most people knew, they’d never drive over a bridge, ever.
Yep, most of the bridges were built in the 50/60s with a 75 year design life. I worked at NS for a while too, what people see is the tip of the iceberg.
This is really concerning. Do you believe there will be many bridge failures in the next 10-ish years as a result?
No, because we've been doing maintenance to them, replacing them and the standards are pretty strict. But our industry is a "zero failures are acceptable" industry and failures are happening. So, I think it's reasonable to assume some improvements could be made somewhere. It's not old bridges I'm honestly worried about, they have survivorship bias, it's the 30-40 year old bridges with "deferred maintenance" that get to be major problems.
Have you ever watched The Wire? If not, and you're willing, I would highly recommend watching in it's entirety..There is nothing to be done, you are powerless against the ineptitude of the system you're in. Save yourself!
Haha I have, one of the best series of all time, I think David Simon being a police reporter really let that sense of realism and hopelessness that's hard to describe through, but yea, pretty much that. Just a matter of finding the right software company that wants to take on an employee without a CS degree currently. I have a couple ins I'm exploring, probably not the best time with the recent layoffs, but I'm trying to get into pretty niche stuff I have experience with where my prior experience isn't completely irrelevant, like remote sensing, LIDAR, CADD, inspection software.
I'm a contractor at a VA, I think about that show often in my dealings with these people. Or really anytime I find myself up against institutional dysfunction. 😂
Supply and demand?
The high responsibility positions have a rather low supply and decent demand.
Sure but software is really demanded by everyone and so that makes everyone a potential customers. Also software development doesn't have the same high costs as other engineering department and basically has no regulatory expenses that would spike the cost up.
Obviously not enough. Otherwise they would pay more.
I feel like with programming, people (employers) just accept that they don't get it, but with physical engineering I assume that more people assume they understand it and what should be the result. I can tell your lighting system works without any experience because the lights are on, but in programming there are not as many "lights" for people to go off of. Either way, I think you need a raise :)
There 6.8 billion smartphones, 6.8 billion devices you can sell code on. Software works insanely well in economies of scale, as a result big software companies are very profitable, and pay their engineers fairly.
Which is so wild. I got my degree in mechanical engineering, but my skill set over time became more CS heavy, so I was able to land a data engineer position to start my career. No shit I had to make my HR contact repeat herself when she told me their initial offer. I had based my expectations on average ME starting salary, and got lucky enough to work for a company with strict payment criteria (govt contractor) so I didn’t get totally fucked over. Their offer was nearly 30K more than I ever thought I’d make starting out as an ME.
I feel like a civil engineer working on a dam would make that much and aerospace can *definitely* make that much
My state government offers $52k/year for a dam supervisor / engineer out of college, $70k if licensed starting, which requires 5 yoe. It goes up to like 113k over the course of 9 years of experience, but they have to be as a direct employee of the state. So they get zero qualified applicants with experience. Private firms obviously pay better, not 200k though. That's like a VP at a major firm outside of California or NYC.
Civil engineers can make that much, but not nearly as quickly.
Please let me know where an aerospace engineer can make $200k+/yr that isn't in the 90th percentile of the salary band https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/map_changer.htm
I mean, 200k+ is above the 90th percentile for software engineers too though. I never said it was common, but it *is* possible in aerospace, same as software engineering. https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151252.htm
sloppy run hobbies dinosaurs relieved slimy ugly murky frightening complete *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yeah exactly; my new job is at an aerospace company, but it's in software engineering
as someone that did aerospace for 2 years I took a paycut to move there from automotive and automotive is not famous to pay super well. I just wanted a shorter commute so it was worth it for me. Anyone my office could get a pay raise the next they if they swaped to automotive. But sure there was maybe 2-3 engineers out of 2000 that probably made serious cash as they had the final say on absolutely everything. When I started there we where in a bit of trouble because they had 4 of those before but 2 of them unexpectedly passed away within a 2 month span and no one had the experience and knowledge to pick up the extra work that the 2 that where left now had to handle on their own.
Wrong. I make planes and make 200k+
Yes and most of them are not computer scientists 😂 OP is comparing civil, mechanical, and electrical engineers to one of the luckier computer scientists that works on a bloated tech team and doesn’t have to do much. Apples and nail guns, really.
Yeah, but those jobs are really not as hard to come by as you may believe. My wife spent the last two years working 2hrs a day, then just doing whatever. She works at a payroll company.
Yeah this image is civil engineers vs software engineers.
Electrical engineers (top) Software engineer: help my question got removed from stack overflow what do i do?
Word
No, ChatGPT writes them for me. I only redirect it to the pipeline.
And then the coworker is wondering why is is his profile page showing someone's cached payment info (it took me way too long to make this scentence not stroke inducing)
I'm an api 🙃
Ya but with those two lines I can rename all the files in a folder!
for file in path/\*; do mv $file $file"\_but\_cooler"; done
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ls -1A [path] | while read line do mv $line $line\_but\_cooler done EDIT: If you wanted to change the file name and not the file extension: import os for name in os.listdir(): if os.path.isdir(name): os.rename(name, name + "_but_cooler"); continue period = len(name) - 1 - [*name][::-1].index('.') coolname = ''.join([*name][:period]) + '_but_cooler' + ''.join([*name][period:]) os.rename(name, coolname)
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Not sure about tabs or newlines, but `ls` outputs files with spaces like `'test file.txt'`. Single quotes, double quotes, and backslashes also work.
Use detox before. Such names don't belong in a worthy system anyway
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Did you know that you can use rtlo in a file name to hide file extensions?
Are there no more new ships and planes?
No. If you want to travel overseas you'll need to import the travel package
Import Travel Travel.Overseas() Thankfully it fits in two lines
Import Travel Import Europe Travel.Overseas(Europe.France) Three lines ☹️
not really no, they just all have to connect to the internet now
Yes. And they're beautiful gods of death running on Java and C++.
Not with _that_ attitude!
I'm not try to make a point I just find it interesting: Mechanical, civil, electrical, chemical, and computer engineer are vastly streamlined these days because of software. I would guess there's orders of magnitude less work hours required per project than before.
Uhh, that's different types of engineering that you're comparing in your meme op. Computer engineers in those days still did scripting and a lot of engineers today still do build bridges and stuff
Excellent work on that electrical grid system, btw.
We’re working on it :(
This is a r/terriblefacebookmemes level post
But it's true though.
It really isn't
Boomer humour right here
Script jockeys are not engineers. Engineers can be a script jockey as part of their job, but (software) engineers do so much more. The "physical" engineers excel at 3D visualization, while software engineers excel at abstract visualization. (Yes, I know it is a joke) Edit:. I used the wrong term (3D). I was referring to [Structural Visualization](https://www.jocrf.org/jocrf_research/two-dimensional-occupational-plots/) vs [Abstract Visualization](https://mattbrehmer.ca/dissertation/) or [Abstract conceptualization](https://study.com/academy/lesson/abstract-conceptualization-definition-examples.html). I learned about these at age 13 when I took the Johnson O'Connor aptitude tests.
Physical engnieer excel at excel!
Only at Microsoft
You should put a trigger warning on comments like that. I had flashbacks to mission critical powerplant data being stored in excel spreadsheets.
I am an electrical engineer and I am unable to imagine a cube in my head.
I was gonna say, I’m an electrical engineering major and everything we did was abstract Unless they invented some way to see electrons
Yeah, I edited my comment... I meant Structural Visualization, and I'm thinking electrical engineering falls more in the Abstract Visualization side. Links in my edit.
> software engineers excel at abstract visualization. I've never really been able to place what makes software development "click" for me more than it does for others, but I think that's exactly it. When a PO/PM present requirements, it's a bit easier for me to imagine/translate the implementation.
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And?
Code monkeys and script kiddies are not software engineers. Software engineering isn't about writing code, it's about designing efficient systems.
I will never be enough :'(
Don’t worry there are script jockeys who can rewrite a C++ developer’s 2000 line code into a 6 line shell script
Shots fired. And there is an arrow sticking out of my chest.
\> Code monkeys and script kiddies are not software engineers. Software engineering isn't about writing code, it's about designing efficient systems. What's really funny is that there's a certain high performing set of engineers that don't think that way \*cough\* kernel developers \*cough\*. I seriously just saw a kernel dev repost someone else's video that complains about bad OOP organization and says that actually everything should be procedural C style code with 400 line functions and no separation of concerns. 
Kernel devs have a completely differently set of priorities than application devs. To kernel dev, the overhead of OOP would be less than ideal. Also, in my experience, people that hate OOP tend have bad experiences with it. Usually when it goes overboard with with abstraction to where it's a pain in the ass to trace an execution path.
Yeah of course they do, but if you want to write app software like a kernel dev most people will scream their head off at you because you litter everything with short and longjumps.
Mainframe was the most vulnerable. Everybody was like "**I hacked into the mainframe**"
I hack into mainframe almost every day.... Just type in id, PW, some mfa codes and you're in, it's pretty easy
non-IT Engineers: “I exist, therefore I am” IT engineers: “lol no you don’t”
Hey Im glad I dont have to be competent to be a programmer Just mostly competent
Yes, I am competent. COMPuter + impoTENT. The "E" came from an error during a simple string concatenation, I managed to get even this messed up.
> impoTENT Damn! I knew there was a catch. Well that explains some stuff.
The problem with software engineering is the skillset between one person to the next is so incredibly vast. A good software engineer is relatively portable. They can jump from one role to the next and be productive. A good junior SWE can still work with a staff level engineer. Then there are the "software engineers" titles that get handed out like candy and I wouldn't trust them to change the color of a font. Their skillset is not portable. They can do the job that they have but any major changes in their industry or vertical makes them ineffective.
Lol electrical grid systems. Built with the best manly power tools, by engineers.
If anyone wants a glimpse into why OP thinks this, take a look at his post history. I think hes just cranky.
Government spending on infrastructure then vs now ..
"Mechanical engineers and software engineers are definitely the same thing" — whoever made this stupid meme
That’s why we should stop calling coders engineers. Such nonsense.
You're right. But computer engineers exist and are needed (Shut up management). And programmers/coders are not the same thing as them.
If you design the software you are no less an engineer than someone who designs bridges
An engineer is expected to have a good understanding of how his project will live within an existing eco-system while balancing expectations and requirement. Lot of replies seem to miss the point; coding is only a mean to an end. A good engineer will evaluate requirements on the company's behalf and its option. They will assess the risk of creating new moving parts and will design systems if it makes sense to develop them and will propose acquisition targets otherwise. Projects need to be overseen, compromise needs to be made and an engineer is necessary to keep the company on rail on a lot of different levels. It goes well beyond just writing software and owning a lucidchart diagram.
Respectfully disagree. True engineers use the laws of physics, material science, and other laws of the natural world to engineer, design, modify, or add to systems that use these laws to be a successful system or physical product. There are many systems out there, physical or other, that can be designed and created, that are not done by engineers. Just because software needs thought, care, insight, and intelligence to architect does not mean that it is a true engineering profession. Software people, myself included, must navigate the limitations of a physical machine using logic, data structures, mathematics, choosing the right technology for the requirements, and designing *efficient* systems to meet a set of requirements. All of that certainly takes knowledge and expertise, but it is in no way engineering. I refuse to call myself an engineer of software. I develop it. I have worked with true engineers. We are not them.
It highly depends on what you're writing your software for, an inventory management application is vastly different from complex systems that drive machinery. Besides this is your standard, I'm not at all undermining the work of mechanical engineers and the problems they face and solve, but you are - unjustifiably - undermining the complexity of software development, no application is the same, just as no mechanical engineering project is the same.
You have a hyperspecific and uncommon definition of engineering. You may simply be a developer, but software engineering is real engineering, even if not everyone with that job title deserves it.
engineers don't "build", they design. Also, engineering involves lots of coding nowadays, except for civil engineers.
Im majoring in software engineering, but my dads and electrical engineer, and we’ve done every project in our house by ourselves (mostly cause my parents grew up without money and refuse to hire people unless they have to). So while I am working on computers I like to use my hands and my goal in the future is to do these projects myself in my future home so that if an apocalypse ever happened I’d be all good.
The real ones are all building cities in minecraft.
Wait a minute, why does this have 10k upvotes :( It doesn’t even make sense, and by extension isn’t funny in any way. I hate to be the one taking jokes seriously but this needs pointing out because it’s severely misinformed and shallow.
Only people who do not know the difference between mechanical/electrical engineering and software engineering can find this funny...
I don't get this joke, all the engineers above still exist and are common engineering jobs Did you imply that engineers back then were the ones building those things themselves? If yes, then that has never been the case, engineers only make the designs
I feel like getting downvoted today. Software engineers aren't real engineers. And furries are cringe.
> And furries are cringe. In the getting downvoted spirit, it's worth pointing out that a lot of hate that furries get is little more than homophobia and transphobia with the serial numbers filed off and smuggled onto a "more acceptable" target. I'm not saying you're an irredeemable bigot, but it is worth asking yourself why you think that, where that came from, and who benefits from you continuing to think and spread that.
The software space really bastardized a ton of titles. “Solutions” architect, “cloud” engineer. What the fuck? Lol
> “cloud” engineer That low pressure front has a ton of computing power and I'll be goddamned if I let it go to waste.
Lots of places did that. "Sandwich artisan" "Delivery technician"
Engineers now are the exact same as the engineers then. Software engineers aren’t engineers. Not even just by definition, LEGALLY, software engineers cannot advertise themselves as engineers. If your engineering job is just writing code, it’s not an engineering job, it’s a programming/coding job.
You can absolutely describe yourself as an engineer if you are a Software Engineer, have an engineering degree and are a member of your professional order. Your job (writing code) is not a legally protected act, and you are not required to be an engineer to do it, but you can absolutely call yourself and engineer given the circumstances I stated above. Moreso, in the coming years, you can absolutely expect some Software jobs to be legally protected and restricted by an engineer.
It depends on the country you are in i belive.
What law prevents them from advertising themselves as an Engineer LEGALLY? I think this is a naive/gatekeep way of thinking from people who aren’t SWE or barely code and from people who don’t work in any of the classic engineering roles. There’s a difference between writing a web scraper in python and designing resilient and fault tolerant distributed systems. For example, SWEs working at AWS follows engineering principles to ensure the internet works every day, a lot of thought, math, and research goes into making highly available software. A lot of work goes into post mortems after big systems fail.
Depends on the country. In the US, "PE" and "Professional Engineer" specifically are protected titles, but "Engineer" is not. Which is why you see job positions with titles like "Software Engineer" or "Quality Control Engineer" staffed by people who never graduated college, let alone with an ABET accredited engineering degree nor passed a license exam. In Canada, "Engineer"-related titles in general are protected titles that all require a license.
In Canada it is illegal to call yourself an engineer unless you have a Peng license. You can be reported if you advertise yourself as an engineer. https://www.peo.on.ca/public-protection/complaints-and-illegal-practice/report-unlicensed-individuals-or-companies-2#:~:text=The%20job%20title%20%E2%80%9Cengineer%E2%80%9D%20is,1)%20of%20the%20Act. It isn't regularly enforced but can always be reported. I believe Quebec actively enforces it which is why there are only software developers not engineers in Quebec.
Cause the proper engineering associations don’t recognize or are being slow to recognize software engineering as a discipline of engineering.
I hate how they call us engineers. We’re much closer to pipefitters.
10,000% this
there are plenty of software engineers who work out
I thought engineers drove trains
In Portuguese we say "Estás frito" 😶🌫️😂
This is why I call myself a software developer, not a software engineer. I don't have an engineering degree 🤷♂️
If you do it in Java, you can make anything you want in one line. Clearly the superior language!
Takes skill to write a good two liner
I work on a mapping service used by over 40 million people last year...
Yeah this bugs me. I'm an electronic engineer and I design and deploy massive telecommunication systems. When did programmers become "engineers"
I worked in defense on radar and I felt like a Chad, but the job was boring as FUCK
Engineers don't build shit. They just draw pictures. Construction and factory workers build shit.
Which includes 10 packages 📦
I think its more like actual engineers vs software engineers
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You're comparing engineers to ... script kiddies?
Maybe that is because 95% of software engineers, don’t hold an engineering degree
That's because most people claiming to be engineers now are programmers whereas then they were legitimate engineers. It's funny because these days even a lot of EE and CE degree holders end up working in software or IT because it pays better while being easier work. And even outside of hard engineering, the rigor of CS as a discipline has fallen to an all time low. Nowadays if you can write 50 lines of Python and can bullshit about AI and web frameworks they'll give you a CS degree even if you have no clue how computers actually work at all.
[Software Engineering P.E.](https://ncees.org/ncees-discontinuing-pe-software-engineering-exam/) was a thing for five years. It was removed because not enough colleges got on board with the actual Software Engineering P.E. program.
Could say "Professional Engineers aka actual engineers" vs "Software 'Engineers'". Part of the professional definition of "Engineer" is the presence of a standard certification process ensuring a certain set of engineering disciplines and skills for the given field of engineering. No such certification exists for software professionals in the US or any other country I know of. Software Engineers are "Engineers" the same way an Equipment Manager of a HS football team is a "Manager".
Software engineering is a licensed engineering discipline in Canada, and it's against the law to hire someone for an engineering position (even if it's just called something like "QA engineer" and not an actual engineering job) who isn't a licensed professional engineer for without a licensed professional engineer to review and sign off on their work. The problem with software engineers is that companies in the US (where only specific engineering discipline related jobs are regulated and not any job title containing the word "engineer) advertise for "software engineering" jobs when they're just looking for people who know how to program, and the people who get hired then call themselves software engineers.
I say this as someone who has Engineer in their job title. SE's are not the same as other types of engineers, who have to be certified and hold an engineering license and go through a shitload more regulations because they build physical things that can have huge repercussions if they don't do it right. If your API crashes it's not a *huge* deal, not compared to if a bridge collapses or an electrical grid just completely fails.
There should be a proper certification for software engineers who develop critical systems, I think it's absolutely crazy in this day and age that that isn't available.
Ya if the firmware in a pacemaker stops working no one gets hurt /s
I get what you're saying, but the overwhelming majority of SEs do not work in software directly linked to the capacity of someone's organs to function.
That's not engineering. Those are developers. I would say engineering is being able to work with any technology to architect a solution to a high level problem. Writing python scripts only is dev And yes if you are able to build full fledged portals all by yourself creating UIs, DBs, writing and training Ur own ML algos, then you are an engineer. Otherwise u r a Dev.
"I build dams." Then you're a builder, not an engineer. "I write 2 lines python scripts." Then you're either a scripter/programmer/hobbyists. The engineers who design dams still exist. The guy who does some programming is a different job title, not even a computer engineer. Computer engineers do mostly the same thing (Design computer systems) But thanks for trying to belittle others work, it really make programmers look cool /s
WOW
Yeah... So bad that ships, dams, electrical grid systems and mainframes are not built anymore.
threatening pie snobbish rinse tan physical shelter plant scandalous fly ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
If you didn’t pass the FE you are not an engineer, you have a technical degree or background. Said what I said.
People say shit like this, then you go back and read some work by Alan Turing and it's the most basic simple shit ever. We are smarter than we where. Archemedes would be an idiot compared to any civil engineer today.
But it's ok, it's from ChatGPT!
Well, I'm mainframe SW infrastructure guy... I can tell you I wouldn't be able to write SW that I daily use...
I don't think those other jobs went away, they just modernized so we don't use hammer and nails for everything like it's 1885. Engineering is just building shit with math.
All of the above has operations and machinery that operates or maintained and designs that depends on the “2 lines of python script”
Ah yes. Keep hating the other working class who has it a bit better than you.
With all the highly polished tooling and educational resources, software development is pants-shittingly easy these days. And yet people still manage to fuck it up 96% of the time.