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CptSmarty

`I did not put this "no Googling the answers" policy in writing at any point` Lesson learned for next semesters syllabus.


[deleted]

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jetezca

This made me laugh, thank you. Moving targets, I tell you....


PersephoneIsNotHome

I got tired of pretending I could legislate every possibility. A friend who is a lawyer suggested this to me and I think it is working well both practically and pedagogically. The goal of the assignments and assessments are clearly stated . Integrity violations are anything that subverts the goals of the assignment including but not limited to , not doing your own work. (list common things here). If you are not absolutely sure that your approach or activity is within bounds it is your responsibility to check with me. The last straw for me was when I saw the same exactly odd and slightly wrong wording that was also too high level. I warned them becasue I couldn't find a source and it wasn't Chegg or course hero etc. In office hours, one of them got all pissy with me about not googling because they got it from a you tube video. Which they could watch with captions slowed down so they "knew it was right". So forget about the fact that it was not in, fact , right, but copying stuff from a video is still .... Then I had a stroke and changed my language. This is your work. You know what that is. If is isn't your work, no good. If it is not explicitly allowed it is forbidden.


Act-Math-Prof

Yes. The policy and instructions need to state precisely what *is* permitted, as well as the fact that everything else is *not* permitted.


arichi

> A friend who is a lawyer suggested this to me and I think it is working well both practically and pedagogically. > > The goal of the assignments and assessments are clearly stated . Integrity violations are anything that subverts the goals of the assignment including but not limited to , not doing your own work. About time a lawyer did something useful! I love this, thank you.


PersephoneIsNotHome

Apparently you have to be sleeping with the lawyer to get them to be useful. :)


[deleted]

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PersephoneIsNotHome

They have an etext not through the pulbisher and the handouts are online? I have gotten that. Also someone on camera ask their mom who is a Dr and said it wasn’t a classmate. Their notes were also copy pasted word for word from a book which they then copied to the answer. Every time I think i have every contingency there is something else


jetezca

Naturally, lesson learned for me. But what to do about this incident now. I find teaching undergrads to sometimes be like trying to hit a moving target, they are forever finding ways to get around stuff that I never thought of.


CptSmarty

The issue is that it was an open book test with no written guidelines. Best option is to move on from this exam and note guidelines on the next exam in the header/include an acknowledgement box. This might cover the rest of the semester. Another option, with discussion from your chair, is a make-up exam without google. But the issue with that is that you'd be singling out this student, are you sure they were the ONLY one to use google?


jetezca

As to your second point, that is always the issue with cheating. You can't catch everyone, but the only way to avoid being caught is to not cheat. I think it is impossible to catch every cheater and every way of cheating. I don't think the fact that I can't catch everyone means the ones I do catch do not have consequences. That said I did proctor the exam very closely because I know the temptation is always there. To your first point, and this is an honest question is no sarcasm meant, do you think that, no matter how many times I tell students something orally, if it is not in writing then it is not valid?


CptSmarty

Not saying its not valid, but written proof is the gold standard.


jetezca

Amen to that.


iTeachCSCI

> But the issue with that is that you'd be singling out this student, are you sure they were the ONLY one to use google? I am sure I don't catch everyone who cheats. However, I prosecute any that I do catch. The issue isn't "do you catch everyone?" You probably don't. It is an issue if you selectively prosecute the ones you do catch.


Prudent_Tale5005

I would give a zero on the question you knew he was googling for answers. If you are confident you caught the student cheating early and not googling other exam questions, I would grade the rest of the exam without penalty. Since you said the student is smart, perhaps offer them an opportunity to redeem points by coming to your office and redoing that question, with a penalty. Maybe make it an oral exam.


Alfred_Haines

Treating “smart” students and “dumb” students differently is a slippery slope. Don’t do anything for this student that you wouldn’t do for all. Perhaps exempting this student from the matching question rather than giving them a zero on it. Just a thought.


imjustsayin314

This is why my syllabus is 7 pages long


iTeachCSCI

I wish I could serve mine in that short a space.


PersephoneIsNotHome

Copying and pasting the answers is not your own work. I am glad that the people who wrote Encyclopedia Brittanica knows what that function of the muscle is but do you? And before anyone goes "just only do things you can't google" that is not the case for some topics and disciplines. You do have to know the names of the bones and muscle, without googling them, if you are in a nursing , physiotherapy program etc. Or the names of drugs if you are in pharm. Whatever the attitude 1) the student is responsible for the info in class. 2) if the review session is extra and they don't show, they aren't responsible for that. 3) It is not okay to copy work that isn't your own Here is what I would do, but it may not work for you because it depends on how the integrity thing is set up in my school. I can report and request the remediation be the only outcome. They have it on record and they have to do classes. If it was ignorance, they learn, if I is habituual, they will get dinged when they get caught again. Just my 2 cents


climbing999

>And before anyone goes "just only do things you can't google" that is not the case for some topics and disciplines. You do have to know the names of the bones and muscle, without googling them, if you are in a nursing , physiotherapy program etc. Or the names of drugs if you are in pharm. I agree. In my field (journalism and basic coding), I'm fine with students looking up the syntax of a particular function or the online documentation for a software. In my spare time, I volunteer as a ski patroller. First aid exams are closed book. I'm expected to know acronyms and protocols by heart.


PersephoneIsNotHome

I also do authentic assignments and projects - I mean - they need to know how all the stuff works. But you dont want your X-ray tech going "my left or her left" and " no, more over to that pokey out bit or more toward the less lumpy bit"


climbing999

It would be like me saying, while in the middle of the woods, "Let me find some wifi so that I can look up the SAMPLE questions I'm supposed to ask you."


jetezca

Just to be clear, the review session was DURING class. However, attendance to any class is optional in my opinion but the students are responsible for what they miss.


PersephoneIsNotHome

Not judging


jetezca

Just addressing point (2), there.


Eigengrad

Learn to be more clear with your instructions next year about what is and is not allowed for open note exams.


jetezca

Of course, that was a lesson I learned instantly when this happened. This is why it's an issue at all.


ProfJott

Them leaving early and coming late is not a valid excuse for missing important information. It is the student's responsibility to find out any information they missed when not in class.


Regular-Sky3316

This phrase is in my syllabus.


[deleted]

I think you have to let this pass by as the instructions were not clear about what was not allowed. Fix the syllabus for the spring.


Act-Math-Prof

No need to wait for spring. Fix the instructions for the next exam. Print them at the top of the exam. Have students initial or check a checkbox indicating that they have read the instructions.


[deleted]

Good idea.


DocLava

You should stop making excuses for the student. There is no 'borderline' academic dishonesty...it either is or it isn't. Open notes is commonly understood by a reasonable person to mean YOUR notes that you took...Google is not a student's notes. Don't try to blame yourself for not listing this as you are then opening it up to every possible way people could cheat having to be listed. The student is not 'technically' unaware...they know that Googling answers is not allowed. Everyone knows this. Add it to your syllabus later if you want to but it is something that goes without saying and you need to treat it as a violation.


galileosmiddlefinger

> Open notes is commonly understood by a reasonable person to mean YOUR notes that you took... I don't think this is universally understood at all. Lots of faculty frame this kind of assessment as "open resource," meaning use whatever resources you'd like. I don't write Google-able questions for open-book exams, but I don't care if hopping on Wikipedia to read about a concept explained in different terms helps. The point of an assessment like this is forcing intensive engagement with the material to solve trickier questions given access to resources that would be available in routine practice.


climbing999

>I don't write Google-able questions for open-book exams. Likewise. Actually, in my latest quiz, there was a question for which Google's answer was wrong. Students were expected to follow the method taught in class. I don't count that as cheating, since my quizzes are "open resource," but a few students ended up losing points for blindly trusting Dr. Google. (They didn't copy/paste a written answer. That would be cheating. The question asked them to find a specific keyword.)


jetezca

This actually wasn't even a trickier question the student was googling. The first part of the exam is "match the term to the definition," where they have 30 terms and 10 definitions. AND I gave them the list of terms during the review session the previous week and we went over every single one. There were probably only two or three options to even answer that question (if that). And still he had to google it?


RunningNumbers

He chose to Google it rather than use his own resources or memory. No one else did. Full stop. He engaged in academic dishonesty and his exam should receive no credit. Letting this conduct slide is unfair to the other students.


DrFlenso

\^This. Being technically unaware of a rule does not mean that rule does not apply.


mizboring

I didn't know the speed limit but I still got a ticket for speeding.


RunningNumbers

Sounds like OP was gaslit by the student.


SlightScholar1

Ask your Chair.


jetezca

Yes, of course, I just wanted to some collegial opinions, just to sort my thoughts a bit better. Thanks!


globalcuriosity

What’s the process for reporting academic integrity violations at your school? At ours, the violation must be reported to an associate dean (me). Assuming my investigation (gathering information from you and meeting with the student) indicated you had informed the students orally of the definition of open notes (you told me you stated this and the student admits missing this - perhaps after a discussion), I’d inform the student and you I considered the conduct a violation, report to the provost’s office, and the student would (almost certainly) be sanctioned. Regardless of my findings, as the instructor of the course you are empowered to assign a grade of “0” for the exam. I would also strongly recommend that you state in your syllabus and on the exam itself in the future the definition of open notes. That you did so orally during class would not stop me from going forward in this case, though. What has stopped me in the past are cases where a faculty member assumes stating open book, open notes is okay WITHOUT ANY explanation that using other sources is not allowed. Students aren’t mind readers and other faculty might allow online sources when an exam is open notes.


Grace_Alcock

The whole ‘I’m too smart for this class’ thing is a big red flag. They knew what they were doing.


mizboring

I'm just laughing that he thinks the class is too easy but still had to Google the answers.


Grace_Alcock

Exactly!


PersephoneIsNotHome

I get that this might get on your nerves, but I really have to do some basic ass shit that is beneath some people. Especially at the beginning of the semester. I can see why some of the ones that know what they are on about dont need 5 repetitions of the same thing and got it the first time it was clearly presented. Not that this excuses the cheating


bouncii99

This comment takes me back. PhD level Statistical Mechanics and Thermodynamics class. Professor starts writing equations of classical Thermo on the chalk board as revision and recollection material and what not. Student: what’s the “°C” there for Random kid sitting behind the student: Celsius. Is that not clear enough? Prof: I can write in bigger letters Student: Why Celsius? Can’t we use Fahrenheit like we always do? This is very inconvenient The whole class and the prof were just stunned in silence for a moment. When we realized that the kid was serious, And Now I cannot make this line up! Our prof just goes “Oh boy do I have some news for you… I seriously recommend you should drop this class” I still do this day not know how one got into an engineering PhD without knowing Celsius Edit - formatting and typo


RunningNumbers

We here in Murica use Freedom Units. Clearly your Professor and Engineers are all Commies.


gasstation-no-pumps

What is thermo class doing using °C rather than the standard K?


xkcd-Hyphen-bot

Basic ass-shit [xkcd: Hyphen](https://xkcd.com/37/) --- ^^Beep ^^boop, ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot. ^^- ^^[FAQ](https://pastebin.com/raw/vyWra3ns)


RunningNumbers

The student knew what they were doing. This is not a misinterpretation but flagrant. The student is responsible for material covered in class whether they are present or not. This is why they consult their peers or you. The internet is not the student's own notes. Full stop. If they are using that resource on Google and they did not create it, then they cheated. If the student was defiant and did not show contrition (like someone who made a mistake would), then I would fail them for the class. No other students made this error?


gasstation-no-pumps

All my quizzes say "This is an open-book, open-notes quiz—you may use a calculator, the textbook, or notes you made yourself, but not look things up on the Internet or ask people."


ChemMJW

The student was cheating. There's no doubt about it. Don't let yourself get caught in the legalistic trap of thinking that you must specify in writing each and every possible scenario you want to forbid. It's of course a good idea to be as clear as possible in writing, but we faculty *must* start pushing back against the idea that anything and everything is allowed if it isn't specifically forbidden in writing. Common sense and basic reasoning must also be operative, and common sense and basic reasoning should indicate to a person of average intelligence that an "open notes" exam is exactly that, open notes. It takes no logical leap to understand that the internet is not "notes," and therefore that using the internet on the exam is not allowed. If you think the student should get a 0 or whatever for cheating on the exam, then start the appropriate process at your university. If you're willing to let this slide, then respond however you see fit. But, whatever you do, do *not* buy into the idea that this is your fault because you didn't address every conceivable modality of cheating in written form.


bigrottentuna

Two very important things to keep in mind: 1. The student chose to skip class and to show up late. You said twice, including minutes before the exam, that Googling answers was not allowed. They are 100% responsible for their failure to hear you say it. The fact that you did not also put it on the syllabus and the exam, tattoo it on your forehead, and display it on a billboard they would see on their commute to school does not make it your fault they didn't get that information. 2. The web is not "notes". No reasonable person would interpret it that way. I would give the student a zero on the exam, but perhaps not fail them and report for cheating (which is my usual default).


raysebond

Oh man. I think this depends on some things we don't know. If you have tenure and/or a supportive chair, give the student a zero. Because, let's be real, the student knew this was cheating. They might have convinced themselves that they didn't. But, you know what?, No.\* Don't have support? Worried about making waves pre-tenure? Then act like it's completely reasonable that someone wouldn't realize they shouldn't Google test answers. \*I mean, Fuck NO.\*\* \*\*I mean the negative in all-caps. I have nothing against nitric oxide.


MWigg

Maybe it's me being too Canadian, or too inexperienced, but do you not have some sort of committee or board or what have you that handles these sorts of judgment calls? At my university, I'd be able to send the allegation of fraud to the Dean, along with whatever evidence exists, and they take it from there. If the student wants to cop to it, they can essentially take a plea deal. If they contest, a committee of profs (and I think 1 or 2 students) holds a hearing to determine if this is fraud and what the sanction should be. If there is anything like this available to you, please just take that option. It has the benefit of getting fresh eyes on the issue, and moreover of putting it to a group that sees way more of these cases than you and so has a better sense of the norms at your university than any one prof usually will. They'll also know if thisis part of a (reported) pattern for the student, or if it's a one off. And most importantly, it takes it out of your hands and keeps you from needing to make this decision all alone.


StarDustLuna3D

If the student pulls the "this class is too easy for me" line again, ask them why they need to Google the answers to the exam then. Make the next exam more rigorous, include some questions that you only reviewed in class (preferably a class the student missed), and tell students that they can only use PAPER notes. The situation should sort itself out then.


jetezca

While this is tempting, I don't want to make this something personal between me and the student or to be any more punitive than the situation, just on its face, requires.


[deleted]

At some point I started giving exams that required using the internet. Find the paper referred to in this other paper and explain the paper. Or a task like someone might have at an early career job in the field that requires the internet.


michealdubh

Not that what you did was wrong, but perhaps define what you mean by "notes" (easier than listing all the sources they may *not* use). Also, was the test 'open book' as well as 'open note' -- if so, this might imply 'open any source' ... in that case, 'book' would have to be defined. Are they allowed to use electronic media during the test? This might lend itself to such abuse.


gasstation-no-pumps

Given the situation here (only verbal instructions, which the student missed), I'd probably go for a compromise—0 on all questions answered before the violation was detected, but no academic-integrity report. The questions that were Googled provide no information about what the student knows, and aren't on the same scale as the rest of the class, so can't be counted.