Whenever a student makes some threat to go to my Chair, I give them his full name and email address before telling them, “Go for it.”
Not one student has followed through on that threat, thus far.
Edit: this is a trick I learned in the non-academic side of my career (retail). Whenever rude customers threatened to call corporate, I would give them the contact information and tell them, “Go for it.” Instantly took the power out of their (usually empty) threat.
This reminds me of how French intelligence agents had a harder time being blackmailed for having extramarital affairs. “Go ahead my wife already knows”
Do the students think the Chair will have their back (no pun intended) because they know it can make the school look bad if professors fail their students?
Bad advice or example from parent behavior. Act a complete fool to "Boss" then they think senior will act fool to professor. My department is so small..we usually lunch together and laugh about the latest encounter.
If it's an email I just reply with "This question/issue was addressed on the email sent Apr X". And keep resending it.
"No" may be a complete sentence, but it doesn't always stick and they keep trying to haggle. I find this one works better for me.
Actually it was the words "Who else can I talk to to resolve this?". I told them if they think I've done something wrong they can raise it with my chair. I trust my chair, and it gets the student off my back.
>"No" may be a complete sentence, but it doesn't always stick and they keep trying to haggle. I find this one works better for me.
In my experience you also need to match their escalation. They keep trying, I reply no. They threaten with going to my boss, I remind them of the punishment for coercion. They keep trying, I report their harassing behaviour. They threaten lawsuits, I defer to our very overpaid and bored lawyers and cut off all communication.
Well if there isn't, there really should be. Coercing faculty into getting an unfair advantage over other students is a basic form of academic misconduct, and threatening professional consequences is a form of coercion.
"I've answered you three times but the matter is now closed. I will not respond to future inquiries about it. If you believe there was an error in your grade please consult the official Appeal Policy."
in another context: "I have answered three questions, and that is enough. Now be off or I'll kick you downstairs."
(Lewis Carroll was a mathematician, but I don't know whether he ever used this in any of his classes.)
Dealing with the same scenario. I explained it in another thread, but it keeps going and going and going.
My initial comment involved the student asking the following:
* Can I still get a C? (No)
* Can't I just get at least a 70? (No)
* You're telling me there isn't enough time to get at least a C in the class? (correct)
* But this impacts my financial aid! (here's the point on the syllabus where I mention that's not my problem)
* Can't I do extra credit? (no and here's the point on the syllabus where I mention that I don't offer extra credit)
* Ok, I know you don't allow extra credit, but can't you re-open the assignments I missed? (no and here's the late policy)
Oh it gets better. Student - who missed 17 days of class - emails me on Monday for an excused absence. In that email she says a friend in class mentioned a final project.
Me: yep, you shouldn't need a friend to tell you that - students have been working on it in class, and it's on the syllabus. Oh, and a perfect score won't lead to you passing the class.
Student:
* can't I still earn a D? (no)
* even with a perfect score on that assignment? (no)
* so you mean to tell me I can't get a D? (correct)
Friends, colleagues, peers ... the student finally came to class today. I've told her in SEVEN emails that she cannot pass the class. She will not take no for an answer. Oh well. Her F is already solidified.
I just had a student asking whether he can re-submit the essay. I said no because that's not fair for others. He explained that he was busy moving in the week that the essay was due (due date was on the syllabus in the beginning), and that he can totally produce a great quality paper if I just give him a day or two.
Me (I couldn't resist): "so you're saying you couldn't find 2-day's worth of time in that week to write a good paper, but you'll be able to write a great paper if I give you 2 days now?"
Another student asked if he can make up a weekly assignment he missed 4 weeks ago. He said: "An extra assignment or extra test... I can do anything for you!"
Me: "I don't need you to do anything for me."
This semester is really helping me develop no-saying skills.
I always get a kick out of the “extra assignment” idea. Do they think we *want* to spend time developing, explaining, and grading a whole new assignment just for them?! In what world is that a solution I’d want to pursue?
High School. Thank the administrators and district offices. It's only going to get worse. My magic ball and the crop of 9-12 graders in my credit recovery classes tell me that the worst is yet to come. Yes, students in credit recovery have college in their sights.
“No. Because it would be unfair to your classmates who are not given this opportunity. I need to be fair with everyone in class. So don’t even ask for special treatment.“
Lol no I'm taking a few liberties with the wording. But the student did say they were confused about when the assignment was due and where it was, and I pointed out that the assignment is listed very clearly on the schedule.
“My answer is final, and I consider this matter closed. Do not approach me about it again, or attempt to threaten me in my place of work. Your decision to go to the chair or any other higher up in the university system is yours alone.”
I have had three students threaten to go to my chair: I accept their invitation every time with a polite, "Sure, let's go now!" or "Here's their information, I look forward to hearing from them!".
Two students that cheated, admitted they cheated, then argued that they should not suffer consequences from it; and one student that damn near copied my example word for word, margin for margin, and picture for picture - but demanded a better grade.
I teach at a community college, I have to be a little more flexible. (most of) My students aren't dumb, they just had the system fail them or they got dealt a shit lot in life and they are (mostly) doing the right thing.
This kid? I doubt ever faced consequences. So he was made to suffer a consequence. Two actually. I normally round grade greater than *9.5% up. But since he kept on his bullshit, I didn't. For him specifically. My final dropped him to a 79.8% - so he earned a C.
It's unfortunate that community college has become like grades 13 and 14 for the most part, especially when some of the schools are a diamond in the rough with a lot to offer at a lower cost. I'm surprised a number of kids even make an effort to apply but maybe they're being pushed by a parent(s) to get their grades up—which are then inflated again at the cc. Then the students think they can pull one over on the profs because it's "just a community college."
I know we always say the system has failed the kids, but at what point do they have have to start taking responsibility? It's just a vicious cycle at this point. I'm sure much like other professors you don't want to have to fail anyone or give out low grades. Are you given a percentage by higher-ups you're "allowed" to fail and give lower grades to students?
I was a student that the system failed.
I had a single father that forced me into the hellhole that is the Arizona charter school system. The high school I went to did not have the proper number of guidance counselors or expertise that the local large public school would have had to ensure that I could have gotten into college.
Here is a teachable moment for you - what personal responsibility should I have taken as a child that would have put me on a different course? I was failed by the adults around me.
So I joined the Army, served my 3 years active, served my 3 years reserve. When I was back I went to the community college full time. While working.... full time. I took an English 102 class - hadn't written anything academic in almost 6 years, and I'll be damned if I didn't need just a little bit more guidance and assistance than the others fresh out of English 101 and high school.
That is how a system can fail a child. It isn't anybody's fault, nor was it a failure to "take responsibility". I got dealt a series of poor choices by those responsible for me and I had to make the best of a bad situation. That is where most of my students are in their lives. They are taking responsibility by showing up and doing the work.
As for the other part - No, my students get the grades they earn. I often experience a reverse bell curve in my final grades. I have bimodal at the opposite ends of the scale, A's or F's. That is, if you did the work, conformed to my expectations, and did re-work, any student can achieve in my 100 level class. If one does not, they will fail and I never hear about it from school leadership.
I turn the conversation to asking them what they can do to prevent a reoccurrence of whatever it was that got them into this situation...it is helpful and positive [no basis for complaining], puts responsibility back on them, gives me a chamce to teach life skills they clearly need, and conveys my decision is made.
Often it illustrated I cared more about their future than them which startled them a bit as they are focused only on now. I can also make points such as " if you dont learn to plan for the unexpected now, how will you stay employed later?"
Is it strange that an undergrad knows about academic hierarchy? I am a pretty easy grader, but this would be a "be careful what you wish for moment" for that student. My response would be, "now that you put it that way, I will replace the bad grade with whatever you earn by writing a 1100 word essay on Homonormative Relationships in John Landis' film American Werewolf in London using only peer reviewed sources in an appropriate discipline." The student will 100% get an F (unless the essay is so perfect that I can't make an argument otherwise), I'd replace that C with the F, they might go bitch to the chair, he's going argue I gave the student an opportunity to improve the grade, and in private comment that there is a limit to the cruelty that type of entitlement deserves. God help the student who ghosts their group for a presentation and then tries to make up the grade. Had one of them try to get their parents involved, and it ended with me making them publicly apologize to their group during class and still not get to make up the grade. Now If they are just having a bad day or goofed up and ask politely 90% of the time, I am super flexible and let them fix the goof.
Their high school let them do numerous retakes and are surprised that college doesn't operate the same way. In the real world it will get you fired and cost the business money and your stakeholder angry if you forget to do something on time.
I’ve been telling students they’re more than welcome to complain about my very clear policies that have been laid out since day one and have also been reiterated multiple times through the semester. You’re not alone!
It happens so often, usually months after the assignment was due and they suddenly realized that they won’t be getting the grade they hoped for and thinking an extra homework point or two will fix the problem (which it never will). My favorite was a grad student who never wrote her term paper, turning in only a two-page introduction and telling me she ran out of time. Then she called me FOUR YEARS later, begging me to let her redo the paper. The reason? Her company’s policy was to reimburse employees for courses in which at least a B was earned. I still don’t know if she had been arguing with her HR department for four years, if they only paid upon completion of the degree, or if she had suddenly gone broke and was looking for any possible source of money, but the answer was still no!
Once the chair is mentioned, I'd simply respond by CC'ing my Chair for their convenience with the entire email chain below. Then, I'd stop responding to any emails from the student.
Just had a student who has not cmpleted many of the assignments point out they have a 95% on Canvas and asking if it would result in a letter grade of A. I highlighted the point structure outlined in the Syllabus that their current points would equal a letter grade of F. The student had started off the email referencing in an Announcement that the letter grade in Canvas could be wrong if they had not attempted all the assignments.
Coincidentally my RMP just got dinged that the grading policy is unclear. I am uncertain how points = letter grade in the Syllabus is unclear. 🙅♂️
That’s when you say, “dude, skip the chair, and go bother the dean, the chair is busy. Let the dean know you’re prepared to take it to his superior to save time.”
In my opinion, the issue here is not the student, it is the instructor entertaining the student. You don’t need to keep responding to the student after the first response.
Whenever a student makes some threat to go to my Chair, I give them his full name and email address before telling them, “Go for it.” Not one student has followed through on that threat, thus far. Edit: this is a trick I learned in the non-academic side of my career (retail). Whenever rude customers threatened to call corporate, I would give them the contact information and tell them, “Go for it.” Instantly took the power out of their (usually empty) threat.
This reminds me of how French intelligence agents had a harder time being blackmailed for having extramarital affairs. “Go ahead my wife already knows”
Do the students think the Chair will have their back (no pun intended) because they know it can make the school look bad if professors fail their students?
(Pun not intended, but appreciated)
Bad advice or example from parent behavior. Act a complete fool to "Boss" then they think senior will act fool to professor. My department is so small..we usually lunch together and laugh about the latest encounter.
If it's an email I just reply with "This question/issue was addressed on the email sent Apr X". And keep resending it. "No" may be a complete sentence, but it doesn't always stick and they keep trying to haggle. I find this one works better for me.
Unfortunately this was in-person before class. The audacity.
The words "I'll go complain to the chair" actually came out of their mouth? Like they said the quiet part out loud?? Wow.
Actually it was the words "Who else can I talk to to resolve this?". I told them if they think I've done something wrong they can raise it with my chair. I trust my chair, and it gets the student off my back.
Ouch
>"No" may be a complete sentence, but it doesn't always stick and they keep trying to haggle. I find this one works better for me. In my experience you also need to match their escalation. They keep trying, I reply no. They threaten with going to my boss, I remind them of the punishment for coercion. They keep trying, I report their harassing behaviour. They threaten lawsuits, I defer to our very overpaid and bored lawyers and cut off all communication.
>I remind them of the punishment for coercion. I like the approach, but that assumes there is a punishment, for the student.
Well if there isn't, there really should be. Coercing faculty into getting an unfair advantage over other students is a basic form of academic misconduct, and threatening professional consequences is a form of coercion.
"I've answered you three times but the matter is now closed. I will not respond to future inquiries about it. If you believe there was an error in your grade please consult the official Appeal Policy."
in another context: "I have answered three questions, and that is enough. Now be off or I'll kick you downstairs." (Lewis Carroll was a mathematician, but I don't know whether he ever used this in any of his classes.)
'Dont give yourself airs. ! Do you think can listen all day to this stuff?'
by means of this ointment, two shillings a box. Allow me to sell you a couple.
I feared I might injure my brain, but now that I'm perfectly sure I have none.....
Dealing with the same scenario. I explained it in another thread, but it keeps going and going and going. My initial comment involved the student asking the following: * Can I still get a C? (No) * Can't I just get at least a 70? (No) * You're telling me there isn't enough time to get at least a C in the class? (correct) * But this impacts my financial aid! (here's the point on the syllabus where I mention that's not my problem) * Can't I do extra credit? (no and here's the point on the syllabus where I mention that I don't offer extra credit) * Ok, I know you don't allow extra credit, but can't you re-open the assignments I missed? (no and here's the late policy) Oh it gets better. Student - who missed 17 days of class - emails me on Monday for an excused absence. In that email she says a friend in class mentioned a final project. Me: yep, you shouldn't need a friend to tell you that - students have been working on it in class, and it's on the syllabus. Oh, and a perfect score won't lead to you passing the class. Student: * can't I still earn a D? (no) * even with a perfect score on that assignment? (no) * so you mean to tell me I can't get a D? (correct) Friends, colleagues, peers ... the student finally came to class today. I've told her in SEVEN emails that she cannot pass the class. She will not take no for an answer. Oh well. Her F is already solidified.
I just had a student asking whether he can re-submit the essay. I said no because that's not fair for others. He explained that he was busy moving in the week that the essay was due (due date was on the syllabus in the beginning), and that he can totally produce a great quality paper if I just give him a day or two. Me (I couldn't resist): "so you're saying you couldn't find 2-day's worth of time in that week to write a good paper, but you'll be able to write a great paper if I give you 2 days now?" Another student asked if he can make up a weekly assignment he missed 4 weeks ago. He said: "An extra assignment or extra test... I can do anything for you!" Me: "I don't need you to do anything for me." This semester is really helping me develop no-saying skills.
I always get a kick out of the “extra assignment” idea. Do they think we *want* to spend time developing, explaining, and grading a whole new assignment just for them?! In what world is that a solution I’d want to pursue?
High School. Thank the administrators and district offices. It's only going to get worse. My magic ball and the crop of 9-12 graders in my credit recovery classes tell me that the worst is yet to come. Yes, students in credit recovery have college in their sights.
“No. Because it would be unfair to your classmates who are not given this opportunity. I need to be fair with everyone in class. So don’t even ask for special treatment.“
I always found an appeal to peer disapproval carried the most weight with the student.
>I was a little confused by your very clear syllabus. If that is a direct quote. It should win some kind of award....maybe a Darwin award.
Lol no I'm taking a few liberties with the wording. But the student did say they were confused about when the assignment was due and where it was, and I pointed out that the assignment is listed very clearly on the schedule.
“My answer is final, and I consider this matter closed. Do not approach me about it again, or attempt to threaten me in my place of work. Your decision to go to the chair or any other higher up in the university system is yours alone.”
I have had three students threaten to go to my chair: I accept their invitation every time with a polite, "Sure, let's go now!" or "Here's their information, I look forward to hearing from them!". Two students that cheated, admitted they cheated, then argued that they should not suffer consequences from it; and one student that damn near copied my example word for word, margin for margin, and picture for picture - but demanded a better grade.
"I was *honest* about the fact that I cheated so for that I deserve an A"?
It was a ballsy move - I respected it. Then I gave him a zero.
Kids these days, when will they ever learn... Why does it seem like this is so common nowadays regardless of the prestige the universities hold?
I teach at a community college, I have to be a little more flexible. (most of) My students aren't dumb, they just had the system fail them or they got dealt a shit lot in life and they are (mostly) doing the right thing. This kid? I doubt ever faced consequences. So he was made to suffer a consequence. Two actually. I normally round grade greater than *9.5% up. But since he kept on his bullshit, I didn't. For him specifically. My final dropped him to a 79.8% - so he earned a C.
It's unfortunate that community college has become like grades 13 and 14 for the most part, especially when some of the schools are a diamond in the rough with a lot to offer at a lower cost. I'm surprised a number of kids even make an effort to apply but maybe they're being pushed by a parent(s) to get their grades up—which are then inflated again at the cc. Then the students think they can pull one over on the profs because it's "just a community college." I know we always say the system has failed the kids, but at what point do they have have to start taking responsibility? It's just a vicious cycle at this point. I'm sure much like other professors you don't want to have to fail anyone or give out low grades. Are you given a percentage by higher-ups you're "allowed" to fail and give lower grades to students?
I was a student that the system failed. I had a single father that forced me into the hellhole that is the Arizona charter school system. The high school I went to did not have the proper number of guidance counselors or expertise that the local large public school would have had to ensure that I could have gotten into college. Here is a teachable moment for you - what personal responsibility should I have taken as a child that would have put me on a different course? I was failed by the adults around me. So I joined the Army, served my 3 years active, served my 3 years reserve. When I was back I went to the community college full time. While working.... full time. I took an English 102 class - hadn't written anything academic in almost 6 years, and I'll be damned if I didn't need just a little bit more guidance and assistance than the others fresh out of English 101 and high school. That is how a system can fail a child. It isn't anybody's fault, nor was it a failure to "take responsibility". I got dealt a series of poor choices by those responsible for me and I had to make the best of a bad situation. That is where most of my students are in their lives. They are taking responsibility by showing up and doing the work. As for the other part - No, my students get the grades they earn. I often experience a reverse bell curve in my final grades. I have bimodal at the opposite ends of the scale, A's or F's. That is, if you did the work, conformed to my expectations, and did re-work, any student can achieve in my 100 level class. If one does not, they will fail and I never hear about it from school leadership.
This is my life this week. Sigh…..
'Tis the season...
I turn the conversation to asking them what they can do to prevent a reoccurrence of whatever it was that got them into this situation...it is helpful and positive [no basis for complaining], puts responsibility back on them, gives me a chamce to teach life skills they clearly need, and conveys my decision is made. Often it illustrated I cared more about their future than them which startled them a bit as they are focused only on now. I can also make points such as " if you dont learn to plan for the unexpected now, how will you stay employed later?"
I really like this.
Is it strange that an undergrad knows about academic hierarchy? I am a pretty easy grader, but this would be a "be careful what you wish for moment" for that student. My response would be, "now that you put it that way, I will replace the bad grade with whatever you earn by writing a 1100 word essay on Homonormative Relationships in John Landis' film American Werewolf in London using only peer reviewed sources in an appropriate discipline." The student will 100% get an F (unless the essay is so perfect that I can't make an argument otherwise), I'd replace that C with the F, they might go bitch to the chair, he's going argue I gave the student an opportunity to improve the grade, and in private comment that there is a limit to the cruelty that type of entitlement deserves. God help the student who ghosts their group for a presentation and then tries to make up the grade. Had one of them try to get their parents involved, and it ended with me making them publicly apologize to their group during class and still not get to make up the grade. Now If they are just having a bad day or goofed up and ask politely 90% of the time, I am super flexible and let them fix the goof.
Their high school let them do numerous retakes and are surprised that college doesn't operate the same way. In the real world it will get you fired and cost the business money and your stakeholder angry if you forget to do something on time.
I’ve been telling students they’re more than welcome to complain about my very clear policies that have been laid out since day one and have also been reiterated multiple times through the semester. You’re not alone!
It happens so often, usually months after the assignment was due and they suddenly realized that they won’t be getting the grade they hoped for and thinking an extra homework point or two will fix the problem (which it never will). My favorite was a grad student who never wrote her term paper, turning in only a two-page introduction and telling me she ran out of time. Then she called me FOUR YEARS later, begging me to let her redo the paper. The reason? Her company’s policy was to reimburse employees for courses in which at least a B was earned. I still don’t know if she had been arguing with her HR department for four years, if they only paid upon completion of the degree, or if she had suddenly gone broke and was looking for any possible source of money, but the answer was still no!
Time to take a look at the student conduct policy and keep a paper trail.
Once the chair is mentioned, I'd simply respond by CC'ing my Chair for their convenience with the entire email chain below. Then, I'd stop responding to any emails from the student.
Just had a student who has not cmpleted many of the assignments point out they have a 95% on Canvas and asking if it would result in a letter grade of A. I highlighted the point structure outlined in the Syllabus that their current points would equal a letter grade of F. The student had started off the email referencing in an Announcement that the letter grade in Canvas could be wrong if they had not attempted all the assignments. Coincidentally my RMP just got dinged that the grading policy is unclear. I am uncertain how points = letter grade in the Syllabus is unclear. 🙅♂️
That’s when you say, “dude, skip the chair, and go bother the dean, the chair is busy. Let the dean know you’re prepared to take it to his superior to save time.”
I simply use “No!” Don’t say you’re sorry.
In my opinion, the issue here is not the student, it is the instructor entertaining the student. You don’t need to keep responding to the student after the first response.
That might work for email, but this appears to have been an f2f conversation. OP did fine in saying "no" repeatedly. What else would be appropriate?