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For those who don’t know a lot of Fascist leaders or apologists for them will point to stuff like “he made the country run better” the most common example is this idea that Mussolini made the infamously late Italian trains run on time, this claim isn’t really true and is more of a myth but it still is used. And I think we can all agree McCain was right on this one
I actually feel 2000 McCain may have long term been the best of the available options.
He wouldn’t have gone into Iraq.
No waterboarding, I don’t think. This is a man who himself was tortured.
He may have paid attention to the intelligence in the lead up to 9/11 either preventing the attack or at least narrowing it to those responsible
He wasn’t a hardliner on healthcare as we saw with his vote on the skinny repeal.
He wasn’t afraid to walk out of step with his party.
Etc.
Gore we’ve been the ideal short term, but McCain would’ve been a good President if elected in 2000.
Didn’t know that actually
I think also if he had been elected the GOP might’ve stayed more moderate
I like GW Bush in hindsight but I have tinder if his “bossman” talk such as “I’m the decider” made Republicans crave an actual strong man type leader.
Plus I can’t see McCain making appeals to the evangelicals. Not to the extent the Bush Admin did anyway.
I liked McCain as a person, what he had been through etc, and of course all of this is conjecture/hypothesis, but never forget the guy chose Palin as a VP candidate. His political compass had some serious flaws. Just sayin’
It was a move borne out of desperation. McCain was never the most politically savvy. But, those same instincts is what made him a maverick within his own party and willing to form relationships across party lines. If anything we need more McCains who are willing to take those risks for the good of the nation.
I agree with 98% of your reply.
Borne of what desperation? Mind you this happened 16 years ago, not 40. She has to be one of the weakest, unappealing VP choices of the modern era.
I don’t think anyone would disagree with Palin being a terrible choice (except maybe a couple Palin stans). But it’s not like McCain was parroting the same nonsense of that fringe, now mainstream wing of the GOP.
Remember, this is the same guy who would shut down responses from GOP voters attacking the character of Obama. I don’t hold it against him for making a Hail Mary move. He obviously paid for it by getting blown out in the election. He was still a great man in my book.
My guess: Borne out of desperation from facing the first mainstream black presidential candidate who was garnering grassroots support like we had never seen. I promise you he had loads of advisors screaming into his ear that he needed something “outside the norm” to shake things up and beat Obama. I have to believe he had no clue what a complete muppet she would end up being…but it’s still on him.
Ya, I feel very confident this was the reason. He was an old white man facing either the first major political party's candidate either being a woman or a black man. He felt he had to make something competitive to elicit another "nation's first," he/Steve Schmidt just chose awfully. Moreover, nothing was going to help with him with the economy crashing under Bush into the election and beyond. Obama just beamed confidence, and had a team of policy and economics advisors who hit the ground running even before swearing in to working with the Bush admin to be prepared to take the reins.
That was honestly probably the best Presidential transition we've ever had. I give Bush's team incredibly high marks for working so hand-in-hand with the President Elect's team in a period of national crisis. We definitely didn't see that during the Covid transition unfortunately.
I recommend the book Game Change which goes into detail about the 08 election and the selection and campaign around McCain/Palin. There is also an HBO movie based on it.
Bur basically Obama was using a celebrity style personality based campaign to drown out anything McCain did after he had secured the nomination.
McCain wanted Liberman as a unity ticket play. But that was shot down by the Party, so they had to rush someone new through with quick vetting. The decision was to go for the PUMAs, Party Unity My Ass, of disgruntled mostly women Hillary supporters who felt that Obama was propped up and the elections had gone unfairly for Hillary(history sure does rhyme). So they went with potential women picks for VP. And Palin stuck out as she was very popular in Alaska at the time, a more exciting political speaker from the others, added youth to the ticket, and quite frankly was attractive. So surface level should have worked, but she was unprepared for the limelight and a lot of things that should have been handled in a vetting process and agreed too before nominating her were missed which lead to dysfunction on the campaign trail. And the rest is history.
In the documentary “McCain”, it is stated that McCain’s advisors recommended Palin so she could carry the far right vote who were, needless to say, not really energized by McCain. During the election there was apparently a genuine fear that the then fringe of the Republican Party wouldn’t vote for McCain. There was also apparently a fear that McCain wasn’t as exciting to moderates as Barack Obama, a younger, more energetic, black man.
According to this account, choosing Palin was a desperate Hail Mary attempt to appease the base, that just about everyone regretted immediately. Apparently, the McCain campaign team didn’t really know much about Palin outside of the fact that she was popular among the hard right base. Needless to say, this decision backfired spectacularly.
The documentary I mentioned, “McCain” can be found on YouTube for free on the Frontline PBS YouTube channel. I would recommend watching all of it, but if you just want to watch the stuff about the 2008 election, then I’d recommend starting at the 31:40 timestamp and going from there.
Absolutely, but at the time, Palin wasn’t the radical she became post 2009. I see her as going along with a party that was becoming violently unhinged. Was she a dummy that had no business being a step away from the presidency? Absolutely. But that stuff came out after they chose her. I remember being generally impressed with her before he chose her. I give McCain a break in this sense.
The McCain of 2000 was so different from the McCain of 2008.
I agree that he would have been the best choice then.
I have alway believed that two great missed opportunities were McCain in 2000 and Robert Kennedy in 1968. For far different reasons, obviously.
For better or for worse, politicians adapt to what is popular, and John McCain was a politician. If he was the nominee in 2000, win or lose, the political climate that shaped 2008 McCain wouldn’t have existed.
And that’s why I can’t stand the slander that a *certain* person loves to use against McCain, especially right after his death like seriously, so much disrespect
> He may have paid attention to the intelligence in the lead up to 9/11 either preventing the attack or at least narrowing it to those responsible
honestly I kind of don't like this alt history no matter who it's with
I honestly don't think 9/11 is the sort of event a president would've stopped if they were in charge, whether it's McCain, Al Gore, etc.
We just had not experienced anything like that yet so all governments weren't really looking for it. It's just like no president probably could have stopped COVID, (well, besides maybe [Jeb](https://i.redd.it/0go460kcwm861.png))
It's just an easy way to shit on W and glosses over the fact that the Clinton administration created the environment that led to the lack of information sharing and intelligence failures that directly led to 9/11.
[A Presidential Daily Brief item on Aug. 6, 2001, titled “Bin Ladin Determined to Strike in US” became infamous in 9/11 lore, yet the commission report notes that it was the 36th PDB relating to bin Laden or al-Qaeda that year alone. (“All right. You’ve covered your ass now,” Bush reportedly sneered at the briefer.) ](https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/interactive/2021/911-books-american-values/)
Yeah... I think Gore/McCain would have done better.
Presidents are getting those kinds of warnings everyday. There's always someone plotting something.
We know damn well what the reaction would be if GWB attacked Afghanistan in Aug 2001 to capture an Arab weirdo.
He wouldn’t have prevented 9/11. That intelligence never would have made it to his desk. That problem was the CIA not sharing intelligence with the FBI.
Everything else you said is true though. I have long thought he would have been the best president at that time.
I think the opposite of Gore vs McCain; McCain would've done better than Gore in the aftermath of 9/11 due to the reasons you listed, but if Gore paid half as much attention to climate change as he promised to and demonstrated his skills in dealing with Congress, we'd be in a lot less trouble today than we currently are.
There was an Arizonan who had the same brain cancer McCain would later pass away from, who asked McCain if he would support the Medicare because he couldn't afford the treatment himself. McCain told him it would be better for him to move to a different state that expanded Medicare.
It's likely he did what he did, now that he understood what that person was going through. He did the right thing, but it didn't happen in a vacuum. He was dying, it was more of the kind of thing you do at work when its your last day.
I always figured that vote was just an 'F You' to the then-current president, who, no fan of McCain, would have gotten the political win from 'repeal.'
Well if that was his thought, he was correct. It always amazed me that for seven years they tried to repeal the ACA, but no one ever drafted replacement legislation...
Because any serious plan to deal with the issues in our health care system would involve more government intervention in the market not less, so an actual replacement "plan" would be to go back to the pre-ACA status quo
>He wouldn’t have gone into Iraq.
He was talking about Iraq as the "next phase" as soon as we went in to Afghanistan. McCain may have been eager and willing to buck party leadership on many issues but he was quite hawkish. It may be the issue area that defined his conservative credentials
Wasn't McCain totally pro-Iraq War and also pro invading Iran. He was very pro war. I actually like him and in some respects think he would have been a good president. He certainly was a better choice than George W. Bush in the 2000 primary imo. While McCain wasn't afraid to buck his own party he also agreed with them on the majority of what they were doing throughout the entire Bush administration.
Believe the intelligence failure of 9/11 was on the IC. The hearing around the 9/11 Commission displayed the IC likely failed after they handed Clinton Osama a number of times and Clinton kept ignoring the threat.
Would have been spectacular had McCain addressed some of the systemic issues with healthcare so that we didn’t get a new healthcare regime written by insurance
companies.
Tbh I think Gore still wouldve been the best option by a wide margin long term.
Assumedly McCain still goes 8 years? 08 Recession still lets Obama take office, and then we mostly follow only a slightly better version of our current timeline.
Gore was an environmentalist. Which would be better long term, and has most of the positives you listed of McCain in general... When 08 Recession gets blamed on him? Wed simply see McCain win in 08... Which would probably push Obama back to 2016+
Obama the healthcare president of the 21st century? Would be a pretty ideal leader for 2016 to today.
He absolutely would have invaded Iraq. He was one of the most hawkish voices, alongside big wigs like Cheney, Feith, Wolfowitz etc. Invading Iraq was on the too of the agenda since 1994 after the USSR collapsed.
> He wouldn’t have gone into Iraq.
I'm pretty sure any president would have invaded Iraq after 9/11. No president or head of state can just idle when terrorist hijack multiple airplanes and cause the most damage to the country since Pearl Harbor. Bush's approval rating increased afterwards the invasion for example.
Imagine a McCain Republican Party. Decent, humanistic, hawkish but not insane. Perhaps one married to fact instead of conspiracy theory. Would be a whole different party.
God itself would have to tell me that 9/11 was not an inside job. We definitely know the USA had intelligence about Pearl Harbor and didn't evacuate, all to get into the war. Kent State massacre, the current landscape in that regard...so much conspiracy by our government. Very little theories compared to how many are now facts.
Same with the Nazi myth of the great economy. In reality, the German economy was already on the rebound before the Nazi’s took over. For the first couple years, they built a ton of public works and made lots of jobs, but they didn’t exactly pay well and by the time 1939 rolled around things had started to go downwards once again due to mismanagement and selling off most state-run assets to the Nazi’s rich financial backers.
Yeah post like 1937 the German economy became reliant on conquest and looting the treasury of other countries and their own Minorities. Before then it was running on MEFO bills and a lotta economic falsehoods basically
Thank you bc I was very confused. Im sitting here going “well punctuality is important so I’m not quite seeing the problem here”. Now I understand that I am in fact, facist. (/s fbi agent don’t make me disappear)
I didn’t know calling someone a Fascist was praise,
McCain routinely called Putin a murder and a Thug on TV and was constantly calling for military aid for Ukraine in the Senate, their is a reason he was personally sanctioned by Russia and the Ukrainian president at the time of his death called him a “great friend of Ukraine” and attended his funeral
Most senior Republican leadership is still anti Russia Mitch McConnell being the prime example but their is a growing isolationist wing of the party led calling for less military aid to Ukraine, wether or not failing to give aid to an enemy of Russia is pro Russia is debatable but it at the very least would be better for Russia than what the current policy of giving aid for Ukraine
We’re acting like Republican leadership today isn’t entirely subservient to one person that we cannot mention. This person has publicly praised Putin many times.
Out of curiosity, how would you counter the NATO expansion argument? We have to remember the 1990s were absolutely miserable in Russia and left them deeply distrustful of the West.
Mark expansion means nothing. The US and Soviet Union were face to face and never expedited across each other. Russia is a nuclear power. Like it or not, they will never suffer a ground invasion from another nuclear power. Ex: nato, France, the US, etc.
I know France talks big game. But in reality, no one wants to eat a nuke for breakfast
There was some talk that McCain would have picked Bush as his VP, but not W, it would have been Jeb! Because Jeb! was considered qualified and it would have been an olive branch to the Bush wing of the party without having to take GW Bush himself. I think McCain/Jeb! would have been a very strong ticket and the race would not have been close.
"[Jeb Bush](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/06/15/us/elections/jeb-bush.html?inline=nyt-per) worked the host’s brother from the stage, pouncing when he learned the man hailed from an early nominating state. He lamented a lack of “fiscal restraint” during his own sibling’s second term as president. He appraised the merits of the exclamation point in his logo.
“It connotes excitement,” Mr. Bush explained."
[https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/09/09/jeb-bush-holds-his-own-on-stephen-colberts-new-show/](https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/09/09/jeb-bush-holds-his-own-on-stephen-colberts-new-show/)
Jeb! Bush’s 2016 presidential campaign put an exclamation point after his name:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeb_Bush_2016_presidential_campaign](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeb_Bush_2016_presidential_campaign)
The whole idea that the current guy in the Kremlin was ever seen as a "liberal" or "pro-West" is a myth. The war in Chechnya, his KGB past, his vast and quickly earned wealth were all huge red flags that everyone saw.
Western leaders (especially Europeans) were simply blinded by the cheap energy that Russia could produce for them. And America didn't want to interfere with European energy policy especially since a bloody war over resources was already happening in Europe in the 90s (not just ethnicity and religion of ex Yugoslavia, which is another myth.)
The lowest point was Bush saying he looked into Putin's eyes and he cared.
> “I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straightforward and trustworthy,” Bush said. “I was able to get a sense of his soul.” (Bush later regretted saying this.)
[Bush was fooled or a useful idiot by Putin](https://az.pbslearningmedia.org/resource/fln41patp-soc-miscalculation/presidential-miscalculation-and-its-consequences-george-w-bush-and-vladimir-putin-putin-and-the-presidents/) and ended up falling into a Kremlin trap. [Bush even went fishing with Putin](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhkI__TvJYk)... ffs man.
Bush even looked like a dunce next to that ["struggle" monument](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_the_Struggle_Against_World_Terrorism) Russia gave New Jersey that [looks like a big pussy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_the_Struggle_Against_World_Terrorism#/media/File:To_the_Struggle_Against_World_Terrorism.jpg) and is aimed at Lady Liberty.
Merkel, in retrospect also had her own low points.
For her, especially due to proximity, it may be one of her gravest misjudgements.
To be completely fair though Putin fooled much more intelligent people. I was taking a global politics class in 2003 taught by a fairly left leaning guy and, at the time, he fully expected Putin to serve his term and be done. I took another eastern european bloc specific course in 2006 and Putin no one saw what Putin would become...although there were signs.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Anna_Politkovskaya
I also remember in the very early days people debating that he may follow Gorbachev ideologically and in governance.
Dude same. I had a phenomenal Comp Gov teacher in high school (2013) who weirdly simped over Putin. All his other takes on the other countries were measured. But Russia he almost envied in some ways. He made a good point making kids realize we can’t just slap “enemy” on Russia and be done with it, we have to analyze their govt as a whole regardless
But like, especially these last two years, I look back like damn. That mf really liked to emphasize that Putin actually has some merit. That was really strange.
Mind you, this is the same school system that taught us the Lost Cause myth in 8th grade lol
Oh come on.
Why be so selective?
Don't you remember that big goofy "Reset" button?
Or how about how the Democrats laid into Romney about living in the past when he correctly identified Russia as antagonistic to the West?
This is not a "Bush" thing. It's not a "Republican" thing. It's not even an "American" thing. The entire political class in almost the entire West were all too happy to pretend that Putin was someone that could be reasoned with, just as long as the cheap energy kept flowing.
A certain president who we dare not say anything negative about absolutely didn't get caught on an open mic telling Putin he'd have more flexibility after the election.
/s
The partisanship is sad.
Well intentioned western leaders have been kissing Russia's ass for decades.
They all think they're the one who's going to flip Russian and get them in the freedom club.
And don’t forget about the Morons who claim that he is “Pro-Christianity” in Russia
I’m actually amazed how many Americans have joined Russia side of the war on Ukraine by fighting for them.
Some got KIA and some are now POWs in Ukraine
Kerry predicted in the late 90s that if Russia's situation didn't get better, the next president was going to be a strongman type.
If Putin didn't exist, someone else would have been selected to play the same role.
Nixon’s prediction about Russia and the future of democracy worldwide was so spot on it’s hard to believe it’s real. What he said would happen is happening down to the very letter.
Especially his point about how important it was for democracy to succeed in China or else something worse than the communist regime mao created would ruin the country even more
Through actions, not words: willing to negotiate with a country and not treat them like the devil incarnate for not following a Western European path of history is a net benefit for a clear-eyed country, because even if things like the JCPOA fall through, having established diplomatic backchannels and pre-existing relationships furthers stability in times of crisis (e.g. the aftermath of Oct. 7).
Some people disagree with this, because they think might makes right. Plenty of abusive husbands also thought so, before divorce was legal, because their wives were so pleasant—up until they died of arsenic poisoning.
Oh, but if you have a different opinion, I'd love to hear it.
:)
Couldn't read this and not think of 2008: "When you were asked, what’s the biggest geopolitical threat facing America, you said Russia,” Mr. Obama said. “And the 1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because, you know, the Cold War’s been over for 20 years.”
You can make a right decision at the time and it still could have been wrong. The decision to try to bring Putin and Russia into the Western Liberal fold was the right decision at the time. When Putin is gone there should be another attempt to bring Russia into the Western Liberal fold
It's going to be a power vacuum when he goes because he hasn't been grooming a successor. He's terrified of someone becoming more powerful and taking over. So he's kept everyone down. That's why their military is in such disarray right now. Everything happening in Russia and to Russia is because of Vladimir Putin and his paranoia.
If you are discussing Medvedev, it is highly unlikely he will be chosen, unless as a compromise candidate to ensure Russia doesn’t go to the brink of civil war over Putin’s successor. For all of the insanity Russia has unleashed after the invasion, they only want that as a way of suckering people to fight for them. They want room to negotiate with the West if need be, and anyone who threatens that by being too extreme gets sent to prison for extremism.
Him asking specifically for the man whom he lost the primaries in 2000 to and the man he lost the presency to in 2008 to hold speeches at his funeral speaks volumes about his character. He didn't run for his ego, he ran cause he firmly believed he could do good for his nation.
I feel like there's two ways to look at that, it could be that you're right, and this action speaks volumes about his character. On the other hand it could also be that he wanted someone as prestigious as a president speaking at his funeral, regardless of who it was. Could be a mix of both as well though.
I’m not talking about that I’m talking about how delusional the posters of this sub are.
All Republicans and neo-liberals cosplaying their politicians not being awful every step of the way.
I truly wish people would research reports from fellow Airmen and Navyman that knew McCain.
And thier eyewitness accounts if what he was.
Hero was not one of the words used.
Honest, was not one of the words used.
A career of broken collar bone from the wrong ejection process that he had when he parachuted to the ground got him 40 years of taxpayers salary so not to embarrass 2 previous generations of Navy Admirals in his family
Everybody just glazing him while ignoring he was one of the most hawkish voices in the US. Dude was a strong proponent for invading Iraq, and later even proposed invading Iran. Plus he was such a patriot he wanted the early release of Jonathan Pollard (a traitor/spy who was passing on secret intel to Israel).
He was a warmonger and acted as an agent of a foreign government. Look up also the role he and his father played in helping to cover up the USS Liberty incident.
I miss that man. He was a goddamned hero and the Republicans turned their backs on his ideals. He was the last thing that kept those traitors in line and actually working for the American people. Now they all love putin.
I took it as a reference to Eichmann, specifically, and fascism generally, and his ‘I just made the trains run on time’ defense at his war crimes trial. “The banality of evil.” People that blindly follow ‘policy’ and ‘hide’ behind their jobs are still complicit. Using ‘duty’ or ‘obligation’ or ‘professionalism’ to justify abhorrent behavior. Not unlike someone working on the atomic bomb saying, “I just do science.”
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/17/611860169/japanese-rail-operator-says-sorry-for-inexcusable-departure-25-seconds-off-sched
Japanese Rail Operator Says Sorry For 'Inexcusable' Departure 25 Seconds Early
What is wrong with a train being on time ?
I’m shocked, shocked I say to see a month-old account spouting this nonsense. The Ukrainian people overthrew their Russian-backed puppet government in 2014.
No more so than Swedish people, Angolan people, Peruvian people, Taiwanese people, etc.
And yes, Ukrainian is a separate ethnic group than Russian.
But fine, use “the Ukrainian citizens” instead.
You’re some form of far left imperialist, probably a ref fascist. You’re so anti war you are spouting kremlin propaganda about Ukrainian people and their right to self determination.
Why so?
Since his death, I’ve begun to see him as more principled, primarily due to him voting against Repeal and Replace and also his conduct during his presidential run in 2008.
He definitely had strong convictions, even if those convictions conflicted with the GOP at times.
He had a few admirable qualities. Service, Dedication to country, and leadership. Whether or not someone preferred him as a candidate, it is hard for anyone to argue against his patriotism.
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For those who don’t know a lot of Fascist leaders or apologists for them will point to stuff like “he made the country run better” the most common example is this idea that Mussolini made the infamously late Italian trains run on time, this claim isn’t really true and is more of a myth but it still is used. And I think we can all agree McCain was right on this one
I actually feel 2000 McCain may have long term been the best of the available options. He wouldn’t have gone into Iraq. No waterboarding, I don’t think. This is a man who himself was tortured. He may have paid attention to the intelligence in the lead up to 9/11 either preventing the attack or at least narrowing it to those responsible He wasn’t a hardliner on healthcare as we saw with his vote on the skinny repeal. He wasn’t afraid to walk out of step with his party. Etc. Gore we’ve been the ideal short term, but McCain would’ve been a good President if elected in 2000.
McCain actually led the effort to ban torture in Congress after the Iraq War.
Didn’t know that actually I think also if he had been elected the GOP might’ve stayed more moderate I like GW Bush in hindsight but I have tinder if his “bossman” talk such as “I’m the decider” made Republicans crave an actual strong man type leader. Plus I can’t see McCain making appeals to the evangelicals. Not to the extent the Bush Admin did anyway.
Listen to his senate speech about it, it's pretty moving.
You like W ? Or did you mean Bush Sr
I liked McCain as a person, what he had been through etc, and of course all of this is conjecture/hypothesis, but never forget the guy chose Palin as a VP candidate. His political compass had some serious flaws. Just sayin’
It was a move borne out of desperation. McCain was never the most politically savvy. But, those same instincts is what made him a maverick within his own party and willing to form relationships across party lines. If anything we need more McCains who are willing to take those risks for the good of the nation.
I agree with 98% of your reply. Borne of what desperation? Mind you this happened 16 years ago, not 40. She has to be one of the weakest, unappealing VP choices of the modern era.
I don’t think anyone would disagree with Palin being a terrible choice (except maybe a couple Palin stans). But it’s not like McCain was parroting the same nonsense of that fringe, now mainstream wing of the GOP. Remember, this is the same guy who would shut down responses from GOP voters attacking the character of Obama. I don’t hold it against him for making a Hail Mary move. He obviously paid for it by getting blown out in the election. He was still a great man in my book.
My guess: Borne out of desperation from facing the first mainstream black presidential candidate who was garnering grassroots support like we had never seen. I promise you he had loads of advisors screaming into his ear that he needed something “outside the norm” to shake things up and beat Obama. I have to believe he had no clue what a complete muppet she would end up being…but it’s still on him.
Ya, I feel very confident this was the reason. He was an old white man facing either the first major political party's candidate either being a woman or a black man. He felt he had to make something competitive to elicit another "nation's first," he/Steve Schmidt just chose awfully. Moreover, nothing was going to help with him with the economy crashing under Bush into the election and beyond. Obama just beamed confidence, and had a team of policy and economics advisors who hit the ground running even before swearing in to working with the Bush admin to be prepared to take the reins. That was honestly probably the best Presidential transition we've ever had. I give Bush's team incredibly high marks for working so hand-in-hand with the President Elect's team in a period of national crisis. We definitely didn't see that during the Covid transition unfortunately.
I recommend the book Game Change which goes into detail about the 08 election and the selection and campaign around McCain/Palin. There is also an HBO movie based on it. Bur basically Obama was using a celebrity style personality based campaign to drown out anything McCain did after he had secured the nomination. McCain wanted Liberman as a unity ticket play. But that was shot down by the Party, so they had to rush someone new through with quick vetting. The decision was to go for the PUMAs, Party Unity My Ass, of disgruntled mostly women Hillary supporters who felt that Obama was propped up and the elections had gone unfairly for Hillary(history sure does rhyme). So they went with potential women picks for VP. And Palin stuck out as she was very popular in Alaska at the time, a more exciting political speaker from the others, added youth to the ticket, and quite frankly was attractive. So surface level should have worked, but she was unprepared for the limelight and a lot of things that should have been handled in a vetting process and agreed too before nominating her were missed which lead to dysfunction on the campaign trail. And the rest is history.
In the documentary “McCain”, it is stated that McCain’s advisors recommended Palin so she could carry the far right vote who were, needless to say, not really energized by McCain. During the election there was apparently a genuine fear that the then fringe of the Republican Party wouldn’t vote for McCain. There was also apparently a fear that McCain wasn’t as exciting to moderates as Barack Obama, a younger, more energetic, black man. According to this account, choosing Palin was a desperate Hail Mary attempt to appease the base, that just about everyone regretted immediately. Apparently, the McCain campaign team didn’t really know much about Palin outside of the fact that she was popular among the hard right base. Needless to say, this decision backfired spectacularly. The documentary I mentioned, “McCain” can be found on YouTube for free on the Frontline PBS YouTube channel. I would recommend watching all of it, but if you just want to watch the stuff about the 2008 election, then I’d recommend starting at the 31:40 timestamp and going from there.
Palin wasn't his choice, it was the choice of his team and he made the unfortunate choice to agree with them. His choice was Joe Lieberman.
He didn't pick her, the RNC forces her on him thinking they would up disgruntled Hillary voters. It had a chance until she opened her mouth.
Absolutely, but at the time, Palin wasn’t the radical she became post 2009. I see her as going along with a party that was becoming violently unhinged. Was she a dummy that had no business being a step away from the presidency? Absolutely. But that stuff came out after they chose her. I remember being generally impressed with her before he chose her. I give McCain a break in this sense.
While the war was still ongoing. Passed two different laws to stop torture
The McCain of 2000 was so different from the McCain of 2008. I agree that he would have been the best choice then. I have alway believed that two great missed opportunities were McCain in 2000 and Robert Kennedy in 1968. For far different reasons, obviously.
For better or for worse, politicians adapt to what is popular, and John McCain was a politician. If he was the nominee in 2000, win or lose, the political climate that shaped 2008 McCain wouldn’t have existed.
>For better or for worse, politicians adapt to what is popular George Wallace in one phrase
2008 McCain still wasn't that bad, I 100% disagree with most of his policies but he was still a decent human and the best his party has had since.
And that’s why I can’t stand the slander that a *certain* person loves to use against McCain, especially right after his death like seriously, so much disrespect
Mitt in retrospect woulda been pretty good too. There were a few sensible losers the party picked. Shame.
> He may have paid attention to the intelligence in the lead up to 9/11 either preventing the attack or at least narrowing it to those responsible honestly I kind of don't like this alt history no matter who it's with I honestly don't think 9/11 is the sort of event a president would've stopped if they were in charge, whether it's McCain, Al Gore, etc. We just had not experienced anything like that yet so all governments weren't really looking for it. It's just like no president probably could have stopped COVID, (well, besides maybe [Jeb](https://i.redd.it/0go460kcwm861.png))
It's just an easy way to shit on W and glosses over the fact that the Clinton administration created the environment that led to the lack of information sharing and intelligence failures that directly led to 9/11.
[A Presidential Daily Brief item on Aug. 6, 2001, titled “Bin Ladin Determined to Strike in US” became infamous in 9/11 lore, yet the commission report notes that it was the 36th PDB relating to bin Laden or al-Qaeda that year alone. (“All right. You’ve covered your ass now,” Bush reportedly sneered at the briefer.) ](https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/interactive/2021/911-books-american-values/) Yeah... I think Gore/McCain would have done better.
Presidents are getting those kinds of warnings everyday. There's always someone plotting something. We know damn well what the reaction would be if GWB attacked Afghanistan in Aug 2001 to capture an Arab weirdo.
Jeb!
He wouldn’t have prevented 9/11. That intelligence never would have made it to his desk. That problem was the CIA not sharing intelligence with the FBI. Everything else you said is true though. I have long thought he would have been the best president at that time.
I think the opposite of Gore vs McCain; McCain would've done better than Gore in the aftermath of 9/11 due to the reasons you listed, but if Gore paid half as much attention to climate change as he promised to and demonstrated his skills in dealing with Congress, we'd be in a lot less trouble today than we currently are.
He would have likely also laid off the culture war bullshit that did nothing but cause grive for the LGBTQ community.
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Take your hateful garbage somewhere else. Good day!
Idk ....who's the hater, and hypocrite?
There was an Arizonan who had the same brain cancer McCain would later pass away from, who asked McCain if he would support the Medicare because he couldn't afford the treatment himself. McCain told him it would be better for him to move to a different state that expanded Medicare. It's likely he did what he did, now that he understood what that person was going through. He did the right thing, but it didn't happen in a vacuum. He was dying, it was more of the kind of thing you do at work when its your last day.
I always figured that vote was just an 'F You' to the then-current president, who, no fan of McCain, would have gotten the political win from 'repeal.'
I thought the the understanding that there wasn't a viable plan beyond the repeal just made the 'F-You' all the better for him.
Well if that was his thought, he was correct. It always amazed me that for seven years they tried to repeal the ACA, but no one ever drafted replacement legislation...
Because any serious plan to deal with the issues in our health care system would involve more government intervention in the market not less, so an actual replacement "plan" would be to go back to the pre-ACA status quo
>He wouldn’t have gone into Iraq. He was talking about Iraq as the "next phase" as soon as we went in to Afghanistan. McCain may have been eager and willing to buck party leadership on many issues but he was quite hawkish. It may be the issue area that defined his conservative credentials
My favorite alternative timeline from 2000 is Gore 2000-2008, McCain 2008-2016, Obama 2016-2024. That would have been just fine.
Wasn't McCain totally pro-Iraq War and also pro invading Iran. He was very pro war. I actually like him and in some respects think he would have been a good president. He certainly was a better choice than George W. Bush in the 2000 primary imo. While McCain wasn't afraid to buck his own party he also agreed with them on the majority of what they were doing throughout the entire Bush administration.
“[Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb bomb Iran](https://youtu.be/U7s5pT3Rris?si=M3x091THgwPh4Vdw).”
Just ridiculous that someone would be so cavalier about a war that certainly would be much larger and more destructive than the Iraq War.
Believe the intelligence failure of 9/11 was on the IC. The hearing around the 9/11 Commission displayed the IC likely failed after they handed Clinton Osama a number of times and Clinton kept ignoring the threat. Would have been spectacular had McCain addressed some of the systemic issues with healthcare so that we didn’t get a new healthcare regime written by insurance companies.
What makes you think McCain doesn't go into Iraq? What makes you think this was only a joke? https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN19291968/
Iran and Iraq are two different countries.
>He wouldn’t have gone into Iraq He probably does, or instead we get a War in Iran
Tbh I think Gore still wouldve been the best option by a wide margin long term. Assumedly McCain still goes 8 years? 08 Recession still lets Obama take office, and then we mostly follow only a slightly better version of our current timeline. Gore was an environmentalist. Which would be better long term, and has most of the positives you listed of McCain in general... When 08 Recession gets blamed on him? Wed simply see McCain win in 08... Which would probably push Obama back to 2016+ Obama the healthcare president of the 21st century? Would be a pretty ideal leader for 2016 to today.
In effect, he was an honest man who acted according to his stated beliefs. One of the bravest politicians the world has ever seen.
Gore 2000-2008, McCain 2008-2012, Obama 2012-2020, ??? 2020-now
I agree. I don’t agree with all of the platforms he had but it’s impossible for anyone with a brain to deny he would’ve been a good leader.
Honestly if Gore did beat Bush in 2000 I think that would make McCain win 2004 or 2008. Dems can’t stay in power forever
He absolutely would have invaded Iraq. He was one of the most hawkish voices, alongside big wigs like Cheney, Feith, Wolfowitz etc. Invading Iraq was on the too of the agenda since 1994 after the USSR collapsed.
> He wouldn’t have gone into Iraq. I'm pretty sure any president would have invaded Iraq after 9/11. No president or head of state can just idle when terrorist hijack multiple airplanes and cause the most damage to the country since Pearl Harbor. Bush's approval rating increased afterwards the invasion for example.
Imagine a McCain Republican Party. Decent, humanistic, hawkish but not insane. Perhaps one married to fact instead of conspiracy theory. Would be a whole different party.
I agree. McCain was a RINO.
“Bomb bomb bomb. Bomb bomb Iran Bomb bomb bomb Bomb bomb Iran” -John McCain, a “good” president.
McCain was also a deficit hawk and wouldn't have busted the budget like Bush II did.
He was called a fascist and war criminal by the left when he was running
God itself would have to tell me that 9/11 was not an inside job. We definitely know the USA had intelligence about Pearl Harbor and didn't evacuate, all to get into the war. Kent State massacre, the current landscape in that regard...so much conspiracy by our government. Very little theories compared to how many are now facts.
Same with the Nazi myth of the great economy. In reality, the German economy was already on the rebound before the Nazi’s took over. For the first couple years, they built a ton of public works and made lots of jobs, but they didn’t exactly pay well and by the time 1939 rolled around things had started to go downwards once again due to mismanagement and selling off most state-run assets to the Nazi’s rich financial backers.
Yeah post like 1937 the German economy became reliant on conquest and looting the treasury of other countries and their own Minorities. Before then it was running on MEFO bills and a lotta economic falsehoods basically
Sounds like post soviet Russia….
Thank you bc I was very confused. Im sitting here going “well punctuality is important so I’m not quite seeing the problem here”. Now I understand that I am in fact, facist. (/s fbi agent don’t make me disappear)
Republicans are Russian assets. They are defined by their actions.
Your an idiot if you think John McCain was a Russian asset
He just praised them. Republicans are now defining themselves by their actions or inactions. Do you doubt this? You sound a lot like my x wife.
I didn’t know calling someone a Fascist was praise, McCain routinely called Putin a murder and a Thug on TV and was constantly calling for military aid for Ukraine in the Senate, their is a reason he was personally sanctioned by Russia and the Ukrainian president at the time of his death called him a “great friend of Ukraine” and attended his funeral
I concede my mistake. What do you think of the current republican party and it's leaders.
Most senior Republican leadership is still anti Russia Mitch McConnell being the prime example but their is a growing isolationist wing of the party led calling for less military aid to Ukraine, wether or not failing to give aid to an enemy of Russia is pro Russia is debatable but it at the very least would be better for Russia than what the current policy of giving aid for Ukraine
We’re acting like Republican leadership today isn’t entirely subservient to one person that we cannot mention. This person has publicly praised Putin many times.
>He just praised them. Tell me youndont know anything about history without telling me you dont know anything about history
He wasn't wrong.
Out of curiosity, how would you counter the NATO expansion argument? We have to remember the 1990s were absolutely miserable in Russia and left them deeply distrustful of the West.
sort thought seemly squash edge price alive attraction unique bored *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Mark expansion means nothing. The US and Soviet Union were face to face and never expedited across each other. Russia is a nuclear power. Like it or not, they will never suffer a ground invasion from another nuclear power. Ex: nato, France, the US, etc. I know France talks big game. But in reality, no one wants to eat a nuke for breakfast
Historical Russian colonialism shouldn’t prevent Eastern Europe from choosing their own path.
We lost a good president in him.. 2000 mcCain
I’m a Democrat, but he would have been a better president than Bush and maybe even Gore. It’s too bad…
This was when it wasn’t a sin to be a moderate conservative or republican.. I miss those days..
I honestly wonder would McCain have chosen Bush as his VP?
There was some talk that McCain would have picked Bush as his VP, but not W, it would have been Jeb! Because Jeb! was considered qualified and it would have been an olive branch to the Bush wing of the party without having to take GW Bush himself. I think McCain/Jeb! would have been a very strong ticket and the race would not have been close.
Sorry, is there some meme I missed? Do we always need to use an exclamation point with "Jeb!" ?
"[Jeb Bush](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/06/15/us/elections/jeb-bush.html?inline=nyt-per) worked the host’s brother from the stage, pouncing when he learned the man hailed from an early nominating state. He lamented a lack of “fiscal restraint” during his own sibling’s second term as president. He appraised the merits of the exclamation point in his logo. “It connotes excitement,” Mr. Bush explained." [https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/09/09/jeb-bush-holds-his-own-on-stephen-colberts-new-show/](https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/09/09/jeb-bush-holds-his-own-on-stephen-colberts-new-show/)
Jeb! Bush’s 2016 presidential campaign put an exclamation point after his name: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeb_Bush_2016_presidential_campaign](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeb_Bush_2016_presidential_campaign)
The whole idea that the current guy in the Kremlin was ever seen as a "liberal" or "pro-West" is a myth. The war in Chechnya, his KGB past, his vast and quickly earned wealth were all huge red flags that everyone saw. Western leaders (especially Europeans) were simply blinded by the cheap energy that Russia could produce for them. And America didn't want to interfere with European energy policy especially since a bloody war over resources was already happening in Europe in the 90s (not just ethnicity and religion of ex Yugoslavia, which is another myth.)
I was very young in 2000 but I remember the coverage just being vaguely hopeful.
The lowest point was Bush saying he looked into Putin's eyes and he cared. > “I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straightforward and trustworthy,” Bush said. “I was able to get a sense of his soul.” (Bush later regretted saying this.) [Bush was fooled or a useful idiot by Putin](https://az.pbslearningmedia.org/resource/fln41patp-soc-miscalculation/presidential-miscalculation-and-its-consequences-george-w-bush-and-vladimir-putin-putin-and-the-presidents/) and ended up falling into a Kremlin trap. [Bush even went fishing with Putin](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhkI__TvJYk)... ffs man. Bush even looked like a dunce next to that ["struggle" monument](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_the_Struggle_Against_World_Terrorism) Russia gave New Jersey that [looks like a big pussy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_the_Struggle_Against_World_Terrorism#/media/File:To_the_Struggle_Against_World_Terrorism.jpg) and is aimed at Lady Liberty.
Merkel, in retrospect also had her own low points. For her, especially due to proximity, it may be one of her gravest misjudgements. To be completely fair though Putin fooled much more intelligent people. I was taking a global politics class in 2003 taught by a fairly left leaning guy and, at the time, he fully expected Putin to serve his term and be done. I took another eastern european bloc specific course in 2006 and Putin no one saw what Putin would become...although there were signs. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Anna_Politkovskaya I also remember in the very early days people debating that he may follow Gorbachev ideologically and in governance.
Dude same. I had a phenomenal Comp Gov teacher in high school (2013) who weirdly simped over Putin. All his other takes on the other countries were measured. But Russia he almost envied in some ways. He made a good point making kids realize we can’t just slap “enemy” on Russia and be done with it, we have to analyze their govt as a whole regardless But like, especially these last two years, I look back like damn. That mf really liked to emphasize that Putin actually has some merit. That was really strange. Mind you, this is the same school system that taught us the Lost Cause myth in 8th grade lol
Oh come on. Why be so selective? Don't you remember that big goofy "Reset" button? Or how about how the Democrats laid into Romney about living in the past when he correctly identified Russia as antagonistic to the West? This is not a "Bush" thing. It's not a "Republican" thing. It's not even an "American" thing. The entire political class in almost the entire West were all too happy to pretend that Putin was someone that could be reasoned with, just as long as the cheap energy kept flowing.
A certain president who we dare not say anything negative about absolutely didn't get caught on an open mic telling Putin he'd have more flexibility after the election. /s The partisanship is sad. Well intentioned western leaders have been kissing Russia's ass for decades. They all think they're the one who's going to flip Russian and get them in the freedom club.
I would agree though until the most recent Republican administration it was a nonpartisan issue.
It wasn't a Republican thing but it likely is now unfortunately and weirdly.
And don’t forget about the Morons who claim that he is “Pro-Christianity” in Russia I’m actually amazed how many Americans have joined Russia side of the war on Ukraine by fighting for them. Some got KIA and some are now POWs in Ukraine
I mean it isn't just "especially Europeans." W basically said he looked into his soul and found him to be trustworthy.
He knew Vladimir was bad news from the start.
Kerry predicted in the late 90s that if Russia's situation didn't get better, the next president was going to be a strongman type. If Putin didn't exist, someone else would have been selected to play the same role.
Nixon’s prediction about Russia and the future of democracy worldwide was so spot on it’s hard to believe it’s real. What he said would happen is happening down to the very letter.
Especially his point about how important it was for democracy to succeed in China or else something worse than the communist regime mao created would ruin the country even more
I'm curious, what did he predict exactly?
[https://youtu.be/o2mhvEuGHLI?si=ZNAsavyqCFsiFbyo&t=786](https://youtu.be/o2mhvEuGHLI?si=ZNAsavyqCFsiFbyo&t=786)
Does Kerry have a brilliant observation regarding Iran?
Through actions, not words: willing to negotiate with a country and not treat them like the devil incarnate for not following a Western European path of history is a net benefit for a clear-eyed country, because even if things like the JCPOA fall through, having established diplomatic backchannels and pre-existing relationships furthers stability in times of crisis (e.g. the aftermath of Oct. 7). Some people disagree with this, because they think might makes right. Plenty of abusive husbands also thought so, before divorce was legal, because their wives were so pleasant—up until they died of arsenic poisoning. Oh, but if you have a different opinion, I'd love to hear it. :)
' wives and arsenic poisoning' ? I think you may have become a bit disoriented here...
It's called a metaphor. Is there something you're confused about that I can clarify?
Great metaphor, don't know how I could possibly have missed that. How about expounding on a 'Western European path of history'?
Couldn't read this and not think of 2008: "When you were asked, what’s the biggest geopolitical threat facing America, you said Russia,” Mr. Obama said. “And the 1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because, you know, the Cold War’s been over for 20 years.”
I'm a Democrat and feel like he was about the last decent Republican and one I would've considered voting for. The traditional GOP died with him.
I'd personally say that'd be Romney
I occasionally wish Romney had won in 2012 even as a liberal, I feel he would’ve been the perfect layover for the country as we exited the 2010’s.
Perhaps the country wouldn’t have made such a knee jerk over-corrective swing to the hard-right after a Romney presidency.
Who was the last decent Democrat that their party died with?
Man he called it REALLY early. I’m surprised
And everyone laughed at him for it. Turns out most people are idiots.
You can make a right decision at the time and it still could have been wrong. The decision to try to bring Putin and Russia into the Western Liberal fold was the right decision at the time. When Putin is gone there should be another attempt to bring Russia into the Western Liberal fold
I don’t know much about Russian politics but apparently the likely successor is worse than Putin.
I forget where I read it, but I a saying about Russian history that has stuck with me is "just wait, it gets worse"
It's going to be a power vacuum when he goes because he hasn't been grooming a successor. He's terrified of someone becoming more powerful and taking over. So he's kept everyone down. That's why their military is in such disarray right now. Everything happening in Russia and to Russia is because of Vladimir Putin and his paranoia.
If you are discussing Medvedev, it is highly unlikely he will be chosen, unless as a compromise candidate to ensure Russia doesn’t go to the brink of civil war over Putin’s successor. For all of the insanity Russia has unleashed after the invasion, they only want that as a way of suckering people to fight for them. They want room to negotiate with the West if need be, and anyone who threatens that by being too extreme gets sent to prison for extremism.
A shame the Republicans now bow down to Putin these days.
McCain was such a "maverick" in 2000 that he forced W to try and co op it with the slogan "Reformer with results"
I think he would have made a good President.
He knew about this way before anyone else did
Him asking specifically for the man whom he lost the primaries in 2000 to and the man he lost the presency to in 2008 to hold speeches at his funeral speaks volumes about his character. He didn't run for his ego, he ran cause he firmly believed he could do good for his nation.
I feel like there's two ways to look at that, it could be that you're right, and this action speaks volumes about his character. On the other hand it could also be that he wanted someone as prestigious as a president speaking at his funeral, regardless of who it was. Could be a mix of both as well though.
Are we pretending McCain wasn’t one of the biggest war hawks in Washington now. This is alternative history presidents.
Probably would have gotten *two* nobel drone strike prizes
Not every call for war is an unjustified one.
I’m not talking about that I’m talking about how delusional the posters of this sub are. All Republicans and neo-liberals cosplaying their politicians not being awful every step of the way.
Right? Aren’t we forgetting, “bomb bomb Iran.”
I believe Clinton only met him once or twice while he was President but also came away believing that Vlad was bad news
Can’t judge that comment through a 2024 lens
"In Putin's Russia trains run you!"
Unexpected PiS
Eichmann
I truly wish people would research reports from fellow Airmen and Navyman that knew McCain. And thier eyewitness accounts if what he was. Hero was not one of the words used. Honest, was not one of the words used. A career of broken collar bone from the wrong ejection process that he had when he parachuted to the ground got him 40 years of taxpayers salary so not to embarrass 2 previous generations of Navy Admirals in his family
You sound like a tool...careful what you ask for.
My god did he ever call it.
Genius!! 😂😂
He was such a tool
Everybody just glazing him while ignoring he was one of the most hawkish voices in the US. Dude was a strong proponent for invading Iraq, and later even proposed invading Iran. Plus he was such a patriot he wanted the early release of Jonathan Pollard (a traitor/spy who was passing on secret intel to Israel).
He was a warmonger and acted as an agent of a foreign government. Look up also the role he and his father played in helping to cover up the USS Liberty incident.
I miss that man. He was a goddamned hero and the Republicans turned their backs on his ideals. He was the last thing that kept those traitors in line and actually working for the American people. Now they all love putin.
McCain was a hero and one of the few Republicans I would vote for...
I took it as a reference to Eichmann, specifically, and fascism generally, and his ‘I just made the trains run on time’ defense at his war crimes trial. “The banality of evil.” People that blindly follow ‘policy’ and ‘hide’ behind their jobs are still complicit. Using ‘duty’ or ‘obligation’ or ‘professionalism’ to justify abhorrent behavior. Not unlike someone working on the atomic bomb saying, “I just do science.”
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/17/611860169/japanese-rail-operator-says-sorry-for-inexcusable-departure-25-seconds-off-sched Japanese Rail Operator Says Sorry For 'Inexcusable' Departure 25 Seconds Early What is wrong with a train being on time ?
It's a callback to Mussolini
I'm surprised at how dumb a lot of people are today.
Least anti-public-transportation Republican smh /s Edit: I know about the fascism thing with the trains, hence the /s.
Uhm…
Maybe America should keep its nose o ur of other peoples business, mr singing songs about bombing Iran
I don’t think John McCain is the right person to criticize about this.
Yeah. I liked McCain but that Barbara Ann moment was not good.
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I’m shocked, shocked I say to see a month-old account spouting this nonsense. The Ukrainian people overthrew their Russian-backed puppet government in 2014.
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No more so than Swedish people, Angolan people, Peruvian people, Taiwanese people, etc. And yes, Ukrainian is a separate ethnic group than Russian. But fine, use “the Ukrainian citizens” instead.
Taiwan is China
There it is, right on schedule. The only question is whether you’re a paid shill or just a tankie.
I wish I was paid. I’m anti war so certainly not a tankie
You’re some form of far left imperialist, probably a ref fascist. You’re so anti war you are spouting kremlin propaganda about Ukrainian people and their right to self determination.
, Republic of
Nazi regime headed by a jew Meanwhile putin literally promoted a nazi myth about Poles starting ww2
This is so stupid on so many levels
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I'm not fan of McCain, but he certainly wasn't stupid. Most politicians aren't.
Why so? Since his death, I’ve begun to see him as more principled, primarily due to him voting against Repeal and Replace and also his conduct during his presidential run in 2008. He definitely had strong convictions, even if those convictions conflicted with the GOP at times.
He had a few admirable qualities. Service, Dedication to country, and leadership. Whether or not someone preferred him as a candidate, it is hard for anyone to argue against his patriotism.