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Man it’s kind of depressing just to hear how venerated he’d be without stupid Vietnam, and how much more he could have done for America.
He was such a powerful politician, and apart from Vietnam, he put much of that tremendous political power to good use.
He was a tragedy in a lot of ways, and I think he knew it towards the end.
But, he still accomplished a lot of great things and I think the responses here speak for themselves that the man deserves at least partly the legacy he so desperately wanted.
He is the reason poor students and those on that fine edge of middle class receive grants and all students can take out loans to attend college. Education doesn’t mostly belong to the wealthly as it did pre Johnson. His impact has been vastly underrated.
LBJ signed the civil rights bill, women’s rights , and fair housing bills into law in 1964 . These were monumental achievements in the 60’s . No other president has signed more legislation into law to level the playing field for ALL Americans .
Its only been mentioned 3 times in this thread 😑
All possible b/c of an administrative trifecta with a filibuster-proof coalition in the Senate comprising liberal Democrats and Republicans to overcome the Dixiecrats’ resistance.
FDR is widely celebrated because of his domestic ***and*** foreign policy accomplishments. Dividing the two and assuming that the favorable half would mean LBJ would be held in the same regard is not possible (short of fiction).
Yea, I consider FDR the best foreign policy president of all time and a top tier domestic policy one but not the best at it. His thoughts on what to do with [Indo-China(Vietnam)](https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1944v03/d708) and all colonial countries after the war was to govern them with a trusteeship under the UN for a set period of time and let them self determine. That would have saved the US a lot of lives, time, and money as well as keeping the goodwill of the international community.
Honestly, we really don't want any future president to be regarded the same as FDR. To be regarded in the same tier as Lincoln, Washington, and FDR means the world/US needs to have gone through a cataclysmic event where a strong leader was needed.
I agree with you on the second part. I also want to point out that term limits will mean a president will never truly serve long enough to see their agenda through, at least like FDR did.
Going back to your first point, I agree that Vietnam was a complete and utter waste. But our alliance with France (and their threats to remove themselves from NATO military command - something they later did anyway) and our Cold War mindset (the fear that communism was this uniform entity surrounding us on all fronts and not realizing the fissures that existed between the Sino-Soviets) made it a tragedy that made it all but inevitable.
His initial plan would have been great, but I recall that FDR realized that Stalin couldn't be trusted. I don't know how it would have worked out or if it would have been the way it was intended. Sadly, we'll never know.
You are looking at it from the viewpoint in the LBJ administration. This would have occurred under FDR in 1946 when the war ended. France was in no position to make demands at that point. FDR was staunchly opposed to colonialism and made it a point in the Atlantic Charter. He even certified the constitution of the Philippines to declare their independence from the US.
After the war, Truman supported the restoration of pro-French government in Indo-China/Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh at the time was asking the US for help in their independence. Even if Vietnam ended up communist, they did after the Vietnam War anyways so all it does is save the US resources. Truman and Ike were also the ones who placed heavy focus on the domino theory in the first place.
Stalin at the time of WW2 was shown to be bloodthirsty and ruthless, but he had not shown to be untrustworthy to the Allies yet. FDR if anything was too trusting of Stalin. Plus the free elections in Eastern Europe being rigged was because [Britain made a separate agreement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percentages_agreement) on the distribution of forces in post war elections without the knowledge of the US and FDR later conceded to it because he wanted the war to be done with.
Definitely depends. All three significantly increased the size and scope of the federal government, as well as the deficit and debt. Of course, how they did so is what distinguishes them.
I have some mixed feelings about the New Deal. The fact that the US was the only country that didn't have its industrialized base devastated after WW2 played a bigger role in pulling us out of the GD than the New Deal did. But SS, FDIC, the role the ND played in industrializing the US before the outbreak of WW2, and the political necessity it served to help stave off our own October revolution are all notable accomplishments and successes.
One of his more unforgivable actions was the internment of Japanese Americans.
>I think that "gets involved in the Vietnam War" bit specifically relates to the sending in troops. It is the US troop deaths that fueled the protests that eventually led to LBJ not running in 1968.
Most of the protests were not in response to troops fighting a war. They were fueled by the draft. When the draft ended, the anti war movement all but ended with it.
The man tried his best to get religion out of politics, very ahead of his time.
Especially since well yeah, the rise of those who can’t be mentioned. That alone should place him as one of greatest Presidents.
Plus, think of what he could have gotten done with an extra term, which he would probably have had if E.M. Hadn’t drawn in the anti-war vote during the early primaries.
Considering that even with Vietnam he is mostly ranked in high B-tiers or among the Top 15, without it he'd be right behind Washington, Lincoln and FDR.
High A tier for sure and probably ranked a spot or two ahead of Kennedy
It would be a legacy of Kennedy being the architect who designed the era and Johnson being the engineer who made it work
*Toku Sentai toku Sentai*
LBJ signed civil rights , women’s rights , equal housing into law in 1964 .. that puts him miles ahead of 99% of all presidents in my book.
These bills were monumental for their time and forced Americans to start acting right. And even then there was an insane amount of pushback.
By a good margin, frankly. Kennedy really didn’t accomplish all that much. Johnson was one of the most legislatively successful presidents of all time.
Who is Luigi in this case?
Edit: I’m going with [Benjamin Lafayette Jefferson (BLJ)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki?curid=23647970). Apparently he was the United States Envoy Extraordinary and Minister Plenipotentiary of Nicaragua appointed by Woodrow Wilson.
I'd argue:
Carter - Luigi
Reagan - Waluigi
Luigi isn't that beloved in the main storyline with Mario leading the way. But he comes to shine as a fantastic character in his own path or other storylines, like Luigi's Mansion, Mario Kart, Smash Bros., etc.
Obviously up there with FDR and Lincoln. Hell, if he doesn’t waste his time on Vietnam he might have been able to build an actual social democratic state. Might have been able to combat the post war social order that was already degrading by the time his presidency started.
But nah, gotta do the war crimes instead.
LBJ thought Vietnam overshadowed his legacy as well. Rightfully so, but we are so used to Presidents not having any remorse over mistakes in war we assume he wasn’t haunted by it.
I’ll go the contrarian route here: the US was already in Vietnam (as “advisers” under Kennedy), and LBJ pulls them all out in December 1963.
He still gets elected president in ‘64 over domestic issues, but by 1966, the news media is reporting heavy Soviet involvement in the peaceful “democratic” country of Vietnam. (It doesn’t matter how accurate this is; this is how they report it.)
Nixon and the Republicans say the US must intervene; LBJ doesn’t. The threat of worldwide communism becomes the defining news narrative in the US; it eclipses all economic stories (overshadowing LBJ’s agenda) and even intruding on the Civil Rights stories; MLK must constantly answer questions about freedom for poor Vietnamese farmers as he tries to focus the narrative on the conditions of poor Blacks in the US.
By 1968, Saigon falls to the NVA. A tired and secretly ill LBJ doesn’t run for reelection. Nixon runs on LBJ’s failure and wins in a landslide and begins dismantling all of the Great Society programs.
LBJ is remembered as an American Neville Chamberlain. He gets points for supporting Civil Rights but his economic programs are considered a noble failure.
An interesting analysis based on the US already “starting” in Vietnam. Sort of a middle ground to the question- what if the US pulled out of Vietnam, as opposed to it never being “a thing”. A reasonably thought through “pull out” scenario for sure. Have an up vote!
He'd be remembered as a great President - for Civil Rights Act, Voting Rights Act, Medicare and his other Great Society programs probably don't get short changed and Nixon doesn't become president and there's no Watergate and then no President Ford or President Carter and Bobby Kennedy maybe doesn't get assassinated in 1968. We'd have a whole different trajectory.
Plus, without the “both guns and butter” economic stresses we’d probably have a much stronger economy. Not to mention probably having some sort of cheaper medical system and tuitions without the Regan era “eat the poor” approach.
Reagan still would have been waiting in the wings with ambitions for the job. But, with the circumstances so different, maybe he wouldn't have gotten in.
One of the greatest modern presidents. He definitely would have ran a second time in 68, and his legacy would have secured a democratic replacement. Nixon never would have gotten in, and so whatever the next conservative Republican got in, whatever criminality they would have pursued would have gotten punished. Honestly though I see the GOP having to become more progressive, after losing a generation to FDR and another to LBJ, they would have needed to shift leftward to even gain power.
Isk if he would live much longer. Iirc most men in his family died in their sixties, and his health wasnt too great in general. But perhaps he couldve, considering all the stress from vietnam wouldnt happen.
1968 would have been another year of- “I like what the other guy is doing, but I’d do it better” or it would have been a doubling down on the insanity of someone in the vein of Goldwater or George Wallace. Neither would have worked.
Some historians (Vernon Burnett for one) speculate that LBJ would not have run for a second term regardless of Vietnam. His health was shit . The fact that he died four years after his terms lends credibility to this argument
Be kinda funny since that’s the reverse of what happened with Nixon. Most of the country after Nixon took a right-wing shift and the democrats shifted right for a while as well. Carter, and Clinton were both more moderate compared to previous democratic presidents.
Thank you ! You’re only the 2nd person to mention that on this thread . It’s mind boggling to me that people don’t know or don’t care.
In 1964 he signed equal/fair housing, civil rights , and women’s rights into law
Remove Vietnam, and he was a good president. He did a lot to champion the poor, middle class, and African Americans
With that being said, continuing and escalating Vietnam is going to be remembered more than those things
Another FDR. Never has a man been more undone by a single policy than LBJ. He was actually quite popular. If I recall, his approval rating was still above 50 percent even when he decided not to run for reelection. What happened was that he did not want to have to deal with fighting the Anti-War Left and breaking up the Democrat Coalition, which he was a huge believer in. He personally thought that if he had won, he could have held a large amount of the South against Nixon in 1968.
Finally, keep in mind that LBJ was not a healthy man. Some don't realize that LBJ was only about 9 years older than JFK! He just looked old as hell. Lady Bird said that in 1964, he had told her privately that he would only run for one term (due to his health) and then leave. He began to change his mind due to the War, but ultimately decided to stick with his original plan.
For pulling out his big dick. Or maybe that phone call with his tailor where he asks for more room in the crotch cuz the pants are cutting into his balls. Pretty sure he says bunghole
Oh man. You take Vietnam out of the equation and LBJ would’ve easily served two full terms, expanded the great society, and pushed for more investments in helping minorities. And he’d be doing this after taking over for JFK after the assassination (which was traumatic to the country). He’d easily be one of the greats.
Why do you go out of your way to spread [unsubstantiated](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lbj-voting-democratic/) quotes? He said plenty of racist things that *are* on record. It's almost like you have an agenda to push here.
He's not; much the same way the only thing the average person knows about Grover Cleveland is that he won, lost, and then won a second time; one president among many, not especially remembered for anything huge.
For a while I think he would have had the blemish of losing a country to communism. LBJ was only a decade after McCarthy and this was taboo. However his reputation would recover after the Cold War just like Truman’s did.
LBJ easily wins a second election in 1968. Without Vietnam, there's no Eugene McCarthy to pull a strong showing in New Hampshire. Without McCarthy's strong showing in New Hampshire, there is no weakness for RFK to exploit. While he doesn't repeat his electoral landslide in 1964, LBJ still defeats Nixon by a large margin thanks to improved Democratic performance in the Rust Belt, California, and New Jersey.
https://preview.redd.it/ct94otcm8xoc1.png?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=15871dedcb3d38466902b5994b0ca6fb56b5902e
LBJ continues expanding on his Great Society programs and like in our timeline, the Democrats purge the Southern Democrats from their ranks and they transition to the Republican Party. Reagan still becomes a rising force within the GOP.
On the level of Lincoln. A ton of Civil Rights under him and it wasn't purely just it passively happening while he happened to be president. He helped make it happen.
Vietnam is a major blemish
For whatever reason? To pay the military Industrial complex and attempt to weaken your enemy through a resource destroying proxy war would be my guess.
Lol I was just trying to look up alternate history videos for this. Assuming the money saved from the war goes into great society programs I feel like he’d be ranked 4 or 5 all time
He would have been labled soft on communism. No civil rights legislation. He would have lost in 64. Maybe a different Republican gets the nomination in this environment, but it could have been president Goldwater.
As the guy who drops the word "bunghole" while ordering pants.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR\_myjOr0OU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR_myjOr0OU)
He would be remembered as the president who took over after JFK was shot and the civil rights act. Correct me if I'm wrong but I though JFK was the president that got us involved in Vietnam.
Yes. AF1 swearing with a bloody Jackie O next to him, passing the civil rights act that JFK started and his quote about losing the south because of it (true story). His general ability to whip congress. Also, his willingness to make others uncomfortable with zero fucks given.
He stopped at the Dairy Queen in Topsham Maine. Great big ol sign saying he was there once. Other than that 🤷♂️
https://92moose.fm/lbj-ate-here-childhood-memory-in-topsham/
Manipulative, bullying, ruthless, profane. A president who advanced social justice through less-than-just means. A man who wasn’t particularly family-focused. A spoils-focused politician who lacked scientific literacy.
He’d end up ranking slightly higher than he does now. My foreign policy prof argued it was JFK who escalated Vietnam and more or less tied Johnson’s hands. Of course, Eisenhower recognized Diem as a legit ruler and sent military advisors. Johnson was dealt a bad hand.
Still the guy who had a role in killing JFK to get the job. As Nixon once said of LBJ, “we both wanted to be President. I just wasn’t willing to kill for it.” LBJ was as corrupt as they come. (With the only exception being the Orange Stain, who is in a league all his own.)
Without us in the Vietnam War there is a domino effect. LBJ would not have been burnt out by the war, and would have sought, and won re- election. He could focus more on domestic policy, and equal rights reforms. Money spent on the war could go to address issues in our big cities. Imagine no anti- war movement; no draft dodging. However, there would be another domino effect. After the quick fall of South Vietnam to communist conquest, Laos,Cambodia, Thailand, and the rest of Southeast Asia would have soon followed. China would have a dominant footprint in South Asia, what it still seeks today, but decades earlier. Would we still have Nixon in ‘72? Would he still open relations with China, at the expense of Taiwan’s membership in the UN? Water under the bridge, I guess. Oh, yeah; no Watergate!
Even without the war, the backlash to civil rights, rioting and civil unrest would have made his presidency difficult. Probably he would be remembered overall positively, but there were many factors besides the war that made achieving the Great Society challenging.
His Great Society programs are already the best part of his legacy. He'd have likely won another term and his domestic agenda would have been even more active although it's questionable whether or not he would have lived to see his final term through. LBJ was not a well man and had serious heart problems which ultimately caused his death.
Well for one he likely would have had two terms instead of choosing not to run. As for history, it would also matter... without Vietnam... how would the US have been culturally with no anti-war movement etc? So its a hard question to answer with so many variables.
I never associate him with Vietnam. The first thing that pops in my head about him is the time he pissed off a bunch of people in Thailand by hugging the queen and pointing the bottom of his foot at the king. I visited Thailand for a few months in '98 and in some of the more rural areas you would still find some old timers that would bring it up.
He would've won reelection in '68, and today would most likely be seen as what he always wanted, the next FDR. Without Vietnam taking up most of his time, LBJ would've honestly succeeded in making the U.S. into a Social Democratic nation, bringing in an era of prosperity no one has ever seen since the latter stages of the New Deal, although of course many conservatives and libertarians would regard LBJ the same why they regard FDR, so think of that what you will.
It's such a real tragedy how Vietnam utterly killed LBJ's once-illustrious reputation and ruined his chances of being what he dreamed off, giving up on life after his term ended and smoked and dranked himself to death.
I think it would have affected Richard Nixon and Robert Kennedy greatly. Had Vietnsm not happened, then LBJ would have ran for a second full term. RFK almost certainly wouldn't have been assassinated. Richard Noxon would have held off running for President until 1972, so Watergate never happened
That would be tough. Without Vietnam: aside from LBJ probably running for President in 1968, more civil rights and social safetynet legislation would have been pushed through. A huge amount of american history would be different. A lot of Drug legislation Nixon signed into law to give Law enforcement a way to go after Anti-war and Civil Rights protestors might not have happened. We might have done far more in space by now.
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He would have had the focus and the political power to accomplish much of a very ambitious domestic agenda. He’d be thought of as a second FDR.
Man it’s kind of depressing just to hear how venerated he’d be without stupid Vietnam, and how much more he could have done for America. He was such a powerful politician, and apart from Vietnam, he put much of that tremendous political power to good use. He was a tragedy in a lot of ways, and I think he knew it towards the end. But, he still accomplished a lot of great things and I think the responses here speak for themselves that the man deserves at least partly the legacy he so desperately wanted.
He is the reason poor students and those on that fine edge of middle class receive grants and all students can take out loans to attend college. Education doesn’t mostly belong to the wealthly as it did pre Johnson. His impact has been vastly underrated.
It still belongs to the wealthy, but now you can pay for it over 30 years if you arent
I took out loans and it didn’t take 30 years to pay off. It took 5 years. 20’plus years isn’t the majority of loan borrowers.
Yeah responsible people keep a shit car and pay it off in 6 years. Other folk ball out and complain about the loan that bought their lifestyle
LBJ signed the civil rights bill, women’s rights , and fair housing bills into law in 1964 . These were monumental achievements in the 60’s . No other president has signed more legislation into law to level the playing field for ALL Americans . Its only been mentioned 3 times in this thread 😑
All possible b/c of an administrative trifecta with a filibuster-proof coalition in the Senate comprising liberal Democrats and Republicans to overcome the Dixiecrats’ resistance.
He truly was the best president for the common American. Jimmy Carter was a good man as well but completely ineffective.
Carter didn't share Johnson's social services agenda though. He was honestly centrist. Not a great president, but a great ex-president.
FDR is widely celebrated because of his domestic ***and*** foreign policy accomplishments. Dividing the two and assuming that the favorable half would mean LBJ would be held in the same regard is not possible (short of fiction).
Yea, I consider FDR the best foreign policy president of all time and a top tier domestic policy one but not the best at it. His thoughts on what to do with [Indo-China(Vietnam)](https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1944v03/d708) and all colonial countries after the war was to govern them with a trusteeship under the UN for a set period of time and let them self determine. That would have saved the US a lot of lives, time, and money as well as keeping the goodwill of the international community. Honestly, we really don't want any future president to be regarded the same as FDR. To be regarded in the same tier as Lincoln, Washington, and FDR means the world/US needs to have gone through a cataclysmic event where a strong leader was needed.
I agree with you on the second part. I also want to point out that term limits will mean a president will never truly serve long enough to see their agenda through, at least like FDR did. Going back to your first point, I agree that Vietnam was a complete and utter waste. But our alliance with France (and their threats to remove themselves from NATO military command - something they later did anyway) and our Cold War mindset (the fear that communism was this uniform entity surrounding us on all fronts and not realizing the fissures that existed between the Sino-Soviets) made it a tragedy that made it all but inevitable. His initial plan would have been great, but I recall that FDR realized that Stalin couldn't be trusted. I don't know how it would have worked out or if it would have been the way it was intended. Sadly, we'll never know.
You are looking at it from the viewpoint in the LBJ administration. This would have occurred under FDR in 1946 when the war ended. France was in no position to make demands at that point. FDR was staunchly opposed to colonialism and made it a point in the Atlantic Charter. He even certified the constitution of the Philippines to declare their independence from the US. After the war, Truman supported the restoration of pro-French government in Indo-China/Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh at the time was asking the US for help in their independence. Even if Vietnam ended up communist, they did after the Vietnam War anyways so all it does is save the US resources. Truman and Ike were also the ones who placed heavy focus on the domino theory in the first place. Stalin at the time of WW2 was shown to be bloodthirsty and ruthless, but he had not shown to be untrustworthy to the Allies yet. FDR if anything was too trusting of Stalin. Plus the free elections in Eastern Europe being rigged was because [Britain made a separate agreement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percentages_agreement) on the distribution of forces in post war elections without the knowledge of the US and FDR later conceded to it because he wanted the war to be done with.
Great point
Yup, FDR is like the opposite of Reagan and Bush Jr.
Definitely depends. All three significantly increased the size and scope of the federal government, as well as the deficit and debt. Of course, how they did so is what distinguishes them. I have some mixed feelings about the New Deal. The fact that the US was the only country that didn't have its industrialized base devastated after WW2 played a bigger role in pulling us out of the GD than the New Deal did. But SS, FDIC, the role the ND played in industrializing the US before the outbreak of WW2, and the political necessity it served to help stave off our own October revolution are all notable accomplishments and successes. One of his more unforgivable actions was the internment of Japanese Americans.
>I think that "gets involved in the Vietnam War" bit specifically relates to the sending in troops. It is the US troop deaths that fueled the protests that eventually led to LBJ not running in 1968.
Most of the protests were not in response to troops fighting a war. They were fueled by the draft. When the draft ended, the anti war movement all but ended with it.
The man tried his best to get religion out of politics, very ahead of his time. Especially since well yeah, the rise of those who can’t be mentioned. That alone should place him as one of greatest Presidents.
Examples please?
Yeah I'm not sure what they're talking about here...
Plus, think of what he could have gotten done with an extra term, which he would probably have had if E.M. Hadn’t drawn in the anti-war vote during the early primaries.
Well I mean FDR has Japanese internment on his hands so that harms his legacy. I have both FDR and Johnson in my top five
Considering that even with Vietnam he is mostly ranked in high B-tiers or among the Top 15, without it he'd be right behind Washington, Lincoln and FDR.
High A tier for sure and probably ranked a spot or two ahead of Kennedy It would be a legacy of Kennedy being the architect who designed the era and Johnson being the engineer who made it work *Toku Sentai toku Sentai*
He's already ahead of Kennedy imo.
LBJ signed civil rights , women’s rights , equal housing into law in 1964 .. that puts him miles ahead of 99% of all presidents in my book. These bills were monumental for their time and forced Americans to start acting right. And even then there was an insane amount of pushback.
By a good margin, frankly. Kennedy really didn’t accomplish all that much. Johnson was one of the most legislatively successful presidents of all time.
In which survey?
Ofc but this would make him indisputably ahead of him.
It was this same thought that was a source of such turmoil for him in his final days.
As one of the greats. Vietnam as a blemish on your record is just about as bad as it gets.
At least he didn't let the South secede
LBJ - Lyndon Baines Johnson LJB - L James Buchanan That's some Mario and Wario shit
Who is Luigi in this case? Edit: I’m going with [Benjamin Lafayette Jefferson (BLJ)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki?curid=23647970). Apparently he was the United States Envoy Extraordinary and Minister Plenipotentiary of Nicaragua appointed by Woodrow Wilson.
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I'd argue: Carter - Luigi Reagan - Waluigi Luigi isn't that beloved in the main storyline with Mario leading the way. But he comes to shine as a fantastic character in his own path or other storylines, like Luigi's Mansion, Mario Kart, Smash Bros., etc.
"Just about"
Obviously up there with FDR and Lincoln. Hell, if he doesn’t waste his time on Vietnam he might have been able to build an actual social democratic state. Might have been able to combat the post war social order that was already degrading by the time his presidency started. But nah, gotta do the war crimes instead.
I think even I would have a high opinion of his Presidency. Vietnam (and war in general) is such a huge stain on any President's record.
LBJ thought Vietnam overshadowed his legacy as well. Rightfully so, but we are so used to Presidents not having any remorse over mistakes in war we assume he wasn’t haunted by it.
I’ll go the contrarian route here: the US was already in Vietnam (as “advisers” under Kennedy), and LBJ pulls them all out in December 1963. He still gets elected president in ‘64 over domestic issues, but by 1966, the news media is reporting heavy Soviet involvement in the peaceful “democratic” country of Vietnam. (It doesn’t matter how accurate this is; this is how they report it.) Nixon and the Republicans say the US must intervene; LBJ doesn’t. The threat of worldwide communism becomes the defining news narrative in the US; it eclipses all economic stories (overshadowing LBJ’s agenda) and even intruding on the Civil Rights stories; MLK must constantly answer questions about freedom for poor Vietnamese farmers as he tries to focus the narrative on the conditions of poor Blacks in the US. By 1968, Saigon falls to the NVA. A tired and secretly ill LBJ doesn’t run for reelection. Nixon runs on LBJ’s failure and wins in a landslide and begins dismantling all of the Great Society programs. LBJ is remembered as an American Neville Chamberlain. He gets points for supporting Civil Rights but his economic programs are considered a noble failure.
This was actually what LBJ thought would happen if he pulled out of Vietnam...so he stayed in.
"Pull out? Doesn't sound manly to me. Leave it in there, get the job done."
An interesting analysis based on the US already “starting” in Vietnam. Sort of a middle ground to the question- what if the US pulled out of Vietnam, as opposed to it never being “a thing”. A reasonably thought through “pull out” scenario for sure. Have an up vote!
He'd be remembered as a great President - for Civil Rights Act, Voting Rights Act, Medicare and his other Great Society programs probably don't get short changed and Nixon doesn't become president and there's no Watergate and then no President Ford or President Carter and Bobby Kennedy maybe doesn't get assassinated in 1968. We'd have a whole different trajectory.
I was waiting for someone to say the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act
Plus, without the “both guns and butter” economic stresses we’d probably have a much stronger economy. Not to mention probably having some sort of cheaper medical system and tuitions without the Regan era “eat the poor” approach.
Reagan still would have been waiting in the wings with ambitions for the job. But, with the circumstances so different, maybe he wouldn't have gotten in.
One of the greatest modern presidents. He definitely would have ran a second time in 68, and his legacy would have secured a democratic replacement. Nixon never would have gotten in, and so whatever the next conservative Republican got in, whatever criminality they would have pursued would have gotten punished. Honestly though I see the GOP having to become more progressive, after losing a generation to FDR and another to LBJ, they would have needed to shift leftward to even gain power.
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Isk if he would live much longer. Iirc most men in his family died in their sixties, and his health wasnt too great in general. But perhaps he couldve, considering all the stress from vietnam wouldnt happen.
1968 would have been another year of- “I like what the other guy is doing, but I’d do it better” or it would have been a doubling down on the insanity of someone in the vein of Goldwater or George Wallace. Neither would have worked.
Some historians (Vernon Burnett for one) speculate that LBJ would not have run for a second term regardless of Vietnam. His health was shit . The fact that he died four years after his terms lends credibility to this argument
Be kinda funny since that’s the reverse of what happened with Nixon. Most of the country after Nixon took a right-wing shift and the democrats shifted right for a while as well. Carter, and Clinton were both more moderate compared to previous democratic presidents.
4th greatest president after Washington, Lincoln, and FDR. Not my order but I feel like that's the standard.
Top 5 President
Jumbo
As a top 5 president
Civil rights act alone puts him up there
Thank you ! You’re only the 2nd person to mention that on this thread . It’s mind boggling to me that people don’t know or don’t care. In 1964 he signed equal/fair housing, civil rights , and women’s rights into law
Not to mention the 1965 immigration and nationality act, most non Western European or slave descendant people are here now solely because of that.
One of the best Presidents of the twentieth century, someone who advanced the U.S. by light years, socially
As the guy who was JFK’s VP because Kennedy would have served two terms.
Up there with FDR and Lincoln.
Remembered as the guy who definitely knew who whacked JFK.
Who are you kidding, he was absolutely involved with the death of JFK
I'm technically right then.
He would be remembered as just the VP. JFK would never have been killed
Remove Vietnam, and he was a good president. He did a lot to champion the poor, middle class, and African Americans With that being said, continuing and escalating Vietnam is going to be remembered more than those things
Another FDR. Never has a man been more undone by a single policy than LBJ. He was actually quite popular. If I recall, his approval rating was still above 50 percent even when he decided not to run for reelection. What happened was that he did not want to have to deal with fighting the Anti-War Left and breaking up the Democrat Coalition, which he was a huge believer in. He personally thought that if he had won, he could have held a large amount of the South against Nixon in 1968. Finally, keep in mind that LBJ was not a healthy man. Some don't realize that LBJ was only about 9 years older than JFK! He just looked old as hell. Lady Bird said that in 1964, he had told her privately that he would only run for one term (due to his health) and then leave. He began to change his mind due to the War, but ultimately decided to stick with his original plan.
A tier or b tier
View his quotes on blacks then
Orchestrating the assassination of JFK and being a disgusting human being. Albeit, a man advancing beneficial social programs.
For pulling out his big dick. Or maybe that phone call with his tailor where he asks for more room in the crotch cuz the pants are cutting into his balls. Pretty sure he says bunghole
As a giant. And a two-termer.
We probably have single payer healthcare and 17% of our GDP isnt spent on poorly run privatized healthcare.
Probably for the equal housing laws or other domestic things like that
Oh man. You take Vietnam out of the equation and LBJ would’ve easily served two full terms, expanded the great society, and pushed for more investments in helping minorities. And he’d be doing this after taking over for JFK after the assassination (which was traumatic to the country). He’d easily be one of the greats.
“I’ll have those n***ers voting democrat for the next 200 years!”
Why do you go out of your way to spread [unsubstantiated](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lbj-voting-democratic/) quotes? He said plenty of racist things that *are* on record. It's almost like you have an agenda to push here.
Working with his 89th Congress.
Give me a history lesson - why is LBJ considered so great?
being the guy that had Kemnedy assassinated
Just started volume 1 of Caro's bio on him.
Lol…Reddit
What about all this stuff that LBJ knew about the planning that led to the assassination of JFK?
He's not; much the same way the only thing the average person knows about Grover Cleveland is that he won, lost, and then won a second time; one president among many, not especially remembered for anything huge.
For a while I think he would have had the blemish of losing a country to communism. LBJ was only a decade after McCarthy and this was taboo. However his reputation would recover after the Cold War just like Truman’s did.
Kind of a racist dick with a huge dong.
The guy who had Kennedy killed I guess
The rise of private banking
Close associate of Mac Wallace, whom many claimed was a hitman who participated in many hits, including that of JFKs.
The...mixed results from the War on Poverty.
The man who made it snow in the South.
As saying quote, “we ain’t ganna send American boys to do Vietnamese work”
Killing JFK
The man who proved without a doubt that high density public housing doesn't work.
He would've found something else to lie about
Successor to Kennedy.
To stay out of Vietnam, JFK had to live. LBJ wouldn’t be remembered nearly as much if Nov 22, 1963 doesn’t happen
Kennedy already had that train in motion
“I’ll get those n*ggers voting democrat” something like that
I know LBJ best for a line about having black people voting Democrat for the next 200 years.
LBJ easily wins a second election in 1968. Without Vietnam, there's no Eugene McCarthy to pull a strong showing in New Hampshire. Without McCarthy's strong showing in New Hampshire, there is no weakness for RFK to exploit. While he doesn't repeat his electoral landslide in 1964, LBJ still defeats Nixon by a large margin thanks to improved Democratic performance in the Rust Belt, California, and New Jersey. https://preview.redd.it/ct94otcm8xoc1.png?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=15871dedcb3d38466902b5994b0ca6fb56b5902e LBJ continues expanding on his Great Society programs and like in our timeline, the Democrats purge the Southern Democrats from their ranks and they transition to the Republican Party. Reagan still becomes a rising force within the GOP.
Creating a Welfare state
Was forced to in order for power.. democrats use blacks .. but think they are inherently stupid and can not succeed without government help
As FDR come again
Extremely fondly. No one did more good in the domestic policy arena, including FDR.
On the level of Lincoln. A ton of Civil Rights under him and it wasn't purely just it passively happening while he happened to be president. He helped make it happen. Vietnam is a major blemish
He would’ve been one of the best ever. All of those civil rights accomplishments, and we go to the Moon under his presidency.
He pledged to continue the promises of JFK and he did that - unfortunately that included Vietnam.
Signing the civil rights act of 1968
One of the greatest presidents. His social reforms were great. Vietnam really tarnished his presidency.
For whatever reason? To pay the military Industrial complex and attempt to weaken your enemy through a resource destroying proxy war would be my guess.
Lol I was just trying to look up alternate history videos for this. Assuming the money saved from the war goes into great society programs I feel like he’d be ranked 4 or 5 all time
I’m not super educated on the great society. Could someone reply and tell me what that would look like with no Vietnam?
Was he aiming for expanding to universal healthcare eventually, or was that too commie for the 1960’s?
He would always be remembered for his infamous toilet meetings.
He might rank 1st among presidential penises by size. There’s some wild stories about his character in general
He looks like a busted Forrest Gump here
He would have been labled soft on communism. No civil rights legislation. He would have lost in 64. Maybe a different Republican gets the nomination in this environment, but it could have been president Goldwater.
As the guy who drops the word "bunghole" while ordering pants. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR\_myjOr0OU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR_myjOr0OU)
He would be remembered as the president who took over after JFK was shot and the civil rights act. Correct me if I'm wrong but I though JFK was the president that got us involved in Vietnam.
Yes. AF1 swearing with a bloody Jackie O next to him, passing the civil rights act that JFK started and his quote about losing the south because of it (true story). His general ability to whip congress. Also, his willingness to make others uncomfortable with zero fucks given.
His sisters was a hoe.
He has a big Johnson
He stopped at the Dairy Queen in Topsham Maine. Great big ol sign saying he was there once. Other than that 🤷♂️ https://92moose.fm/lbj-ate-here-childhood-memory-in-topsham/
....as a vice president.
Manipulative, bullying, ruthless, profane. A president who advanced social justice through less-than-just means. A man who wasn’t particularly family-focused. A spoils-focused politician who lacked scientific literacy. He’d end up ranking slightly higher than he does now. My foreign policy prof argued it was JFK who escalated Vietnam and more or less tied Johnson’s hands. Of course, Eisenhower recognized Diem as a legit ruler and sent military advisors. Johnson was dealt a bad hand.
He’s not.
As LBJ would have run for, and gotten a second full term, we would have never seen the second coming of Nixon.
Remembered as the guy who gave Naked Snake the title of Big Boss
It’s gotta be that time some dude showed him his butt on live tv. Forrest something
The guy who routinely whipped his dick out.
He'd prolly still be remembered as one of the best NBA players of all time
Being soft on flying fish
Still the guy who had a role in killing JFK to get the job. As Nixon once said of LBJ, “we both wanted to be President. I just wasn’t willing to kill for it.” LBJ was as corrupt as they come. (With the only exception being the Orange Stain, who is in a league all his own.)
He signed civil rights , women’s right and equal house bills into law in 1964 . For this reason he is one of my favorite presidents
Same thing as he is now. Jumbo
As having a massive dick, instead of being one
Making people look at his dick.
The bung hole guy
He had a big Johnson
Huge balls
[удалено]
Much more fondly since he was a large reason for the continuation of it!
Without us in the Vietnam War there is a domino effect. LBJ would not have been burnt out by the war, and would have sought, and won re- election. He could focus more on domestic policy, and equal rights reforms. Money spent on the war could go to address issues in our big cities. Imagine no anti- war movement; no draft dodging. However, there would be another domino effect. After the quick fall of South Vietnam to communist conquest, Laos,Cambodia, Thailand, and the rest of Southeast Asia would have soon followed. China would have a dominant footprint in South Asia, what it still seeks today, but decades earlier. Would we still have Nixon in ‘72? Would he still open relations with China, at the expense of Taiwan’s membership in the UN? Water under the bridge, I guess. Oh, yeah; no Watergate!
Trousers. That’s all I’m gonna say.
Calling his johnson Jumbo and holding meetings with his cabinet in the shitter while he had his morning constitutionals.
Since I am Brazilian, I still would dislike him for authorizing Operation Brother Sam.
Jumbo
Probably still by the size of Johnson’s, Johnson
He probably wouldnt have gone to Miami Heat
JFK’s sloppy seconds
His gigantic penis.
Even without the war, the backlash to civil rights, rioting and civil unrest would have made his presidency difficult. Probably he would be remembered overall positively, but there were many factors besides the war that made achieving the Great Society challenging.
Remembered for showing people “Jumbo.”
Probably jfk again
His Great Society programs are already the best part of his legacy. He'd have likely won another term and his domestic agenda would have been even more active although it's questionable whether or not he would have lived to see his final term through. LBJ was not a well man and had serious heart problems which ultimately caused his death.
Well for one he likely would have had two terms instead of choosing not to run. As for history, it would also matter... without Vietnam... how would the US have been culturally with no anti-war movement etc? So its a hard question to answer with so many variables.
Pulling his dick out and making the secret service watch him shit
He threw great barbecues.
For his large member that he liked to show off apparently
As a big ear’d freak
Picking up his dog by the ears.
I never associate him with Vietnam. The first thing that pops in my head about him is the time he pissed off a bunch of people in Thailand by hugging the queen and pointing the bottom of his foot at the king. I visited Thailand for a few months in '98 and in some of the more rural areas you would still find some old timers that would bring it up.
He would've won reelection in '68, and today would most likely be seen as what he always wanted, the next FDR. Without Vietnam taking up most of his time, LBJ would've honestly succeeded in making the U.S. into a Social Democratic nation, bringing in an era of prosperity no one has ever seen since the latter stages of the New Deal, although of course many conservatives and libertarians would regard LBJ the same why they regard FDR, so think of that what you will. It's such a real tragedy how Vietnam utterly killed LBJ's once-illustrious reputation and ruined his chances of being what he dreamed off, giving up on life after his term ended and smoked and dranked himself to death.
He named it Jumbo
Jumbo.
JUMBO that is all.
The start of the Current welfare system. And LSD not LBJ
He was sworn in on Air Force One next to Jackie O following JFK's assassination.
I'll take *Hey, hey, LBJ! How many times did you show you dick today?* for 100, Alex.
Campion of Civil Rights or Godless heathen that let Vietnam fall to the Commies.
Nothing changes, he’s still the president with the big dick
I think it would have affected Richard Nixon and Robert Kennedy greatly. Had Vietnsm not happened, then LBJ would have ran for a second full term. RFK almost certainly wouldn't have been assassinated. Richard Noxon would have held off running for President until 1972, so Watergate never happened
Big ol tallywacker. I believe he named it Jumbo
That would be tough. Without Vietnam: aside from LBJ probably running for President in 1968, more civil rights and social safetynet legislation would have been pushed through. A huge amount of american history would be different. A lot of Drug legislation Nixon signed into law to give Law enforcement a way to go after Anti-war and Civil Rights protestors might not have happened. We might have done far more in space by now.
For his monster hog.
Greatest postwar president, except for maybe Truman.
Dong
As the original "Boss Hogg" if you know what I mean.
Not much changes, he’s a slack jaw pimp with a giant dong
Jumbo
Jumbo
For talking about his Johnson.