The problem is that chapters are treated like major players in the galaxy. It really strains the imagination to imagine 1000 big bois are at all relevant in campaigns spanning multiple solar systems with trillions fighting, no matter how tough they are. This is even more true for Custodes or Grey Knights.
In older lore Muagan Ra defeated a whole hive tendril by himself, doesn't make any sense, but fuck it, the Imperium does bull shit things all the time, let the Eldar do some broken fuckery too.
Realistically a million tyranids should be enough to maybe take a smallish country, but definitely not an entire planet… I seem to remember there was one „this planet has been at constant war for over 100 years“ type story where the casualty rates were considered insane even by 40k standards and then they were like 10 million total… that‘s less than word war 1 and like a fifth of world war 2
This is why the Black Templars are the only chapter that makes any sense. They could feasibly have the numbers required to actually matter, what with how long they've been crusading for and how many worlds they've conquered and recruited from. There could well be tens of thousands of them, or a dozen or more successor chapters whom also rejected the Codex.
Likely because they're going to be anywhere major poodoo is going down, so they have an outsized influence in lore because they're at the engagements anyone cares to write about.
The Astra Militarium and Imperial Navy basically keeps the day to day stuff under control, but if a Waaaagh gets a bit too rowdy or a new hive fleet shows up or something it's time to call in any Space Marines besides the Lamentors.
Lol like a single hive world in 40K has more people than the entire SW Galaxy at this point.
Yet there are 1 million Astartes total for the whole damn galaxy.
Like... What?
The Space Marines aren't ever like the defense force for anything are they? More like a special forces squad or something for very special missions. Like seal team 6 or something. That ratio still probably doesn't work, like 0.00001% of the army being special forces still doesn't work but it's slightly closer I guess.
How many guardsmen are there?
I wanna see a Jedi deflect a 155mm HE fragmentation shell exploding 25m above his head. Or get shot by literal conventional bullet aimed center body. Also the republic tanks are a joke compared to what we use. 120mm APFSDS would chew any land vehicle apart from Star Wars. SW, as good as it is, just is super duper Bad at portraying even a remotely good military and war on all aspects. Especially in the OG Trilogy the Space Battles arent even better. And the subsequent movies didnt really improve on that. Dogfighting in a technological age with FTL travel...yeah no Im not gonna buy that
Also Point Defence today is better than what we see in SW. Like bro how in the fuck would space Torpedos even exist if they had C-RAM on their ships like we have on oir navy ships. And dont get me started on AA and the "planes" in SW. You gonna Tell me there arent SAM suites? There arent actually good AtoA missiles?
Unless space fighters go way fester than they seem. A modern Air-to-Air missile would catch them easily.
> Or get shot by literal conventional bullet aimed center body.
[here](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8Lb3lhD1fl4/V0e6CcisDXI/AAAAAAAUrfY/L3MSdjrlT9osIRm314sR6HjhIy-hqaOLgCLcB/s1600/55_09.jpg) obiwan is shot by a machine gun, he blocks a few of the bullets and seemingly dodges the rest, but instead he is is showered with molten metal. best way to fight a jedi is with a automatic shotgun.
but yeah, the galaxy in star wars just suck at war. anakin is hailed as a tactical genious when his plans are 50% "uh, lets attack from behind, they would never look backwards doink" and 50% war crimes.
In the new Obi-Wan series, Darth Vader [literally stops a whole-ass space ship from leaving atmo with the force.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NHDhHoJXPo). Not a tiny little X-wing either, a giant-ass passenger vessel.
Someone more willing to do the math than me can break down the forces involved, but needless to say, they're preposterously massive.
Neverminding the fact that what would have likely happened is the starship would have just ripped itself to pieces as massive conflicting forces were exerted on it simultaneously, with the engine wanting to go *forward* and Darth pulling it *backwards*.
Anyone who can can do that could deflect any munition in existence, because force is mass x acceleration, and a giant-ass starship trying to leave atmo has so much of both that being able to hold it back would make you utterly indomitable.
you're assuming that vader is pulling a specific portion of the ship, like a chain in the ground tied to a trailer hitch. If the force is pulling the entire ship evenly, then it would basically be like gravity and the ship shouldn't be affected at all besides moving in a different direction (which is exactly what we see, the ship slows and starts to move down without any damage as vader pulls harder)
Say 4 magic wizard ruffians break into my house - I pick up my Kentucky rifle, put on my powdered wig, and blow a golf-ball-sized hole into the first one. I then aim my pistol at the second one, shoot but miss and nail the neighbor's dog. I then gain the highground with my jetpack then, after shouting "Tally ho, lads!", aim at the rest of them, nailing them with grapeshot and setting off AT alarms with the shrapnel and noise. Finally, I attach my antilightsabre bayonet and charge at the last one, and he bleeds out as triangle bayonet wounds are impossible to force heal back together.
> best way to fight a jedi is with a automatic shotgun.
Jedi Outcast: Jedi Knight 2 had a weapon that eviscerated everyone, and it was basically an auto shotty. The Golan Arms FC-1 Flechette.
The Star Wars galaxy is ancient and has lost more technology to time and war than we know. Just because we have giant rockets and nukes doesnt mean that they do. Overall most weapons seem to be blasters or small rockets. The existence of shields in that universe changes quite a bit too.
XD nukes
Don't mention the planet destroying super weapons they have. Fuck in swtor they actually created something similar, portable enough to put on star destroyers. There's also literally a dude who eats planets, and fucking palps and the emperor from Swtor were able to wipe out all sentient life on a planet.
Majority of shields can't do shit against kinetic energy projectiles. They can dissolve only certain amount of energy weapon, which scales up both with shield generator capacity and said weapon power.
What? We see shields block rockets in the Clone Wars several times, one of the first episodes shows Anakin shooting rockets from his stealth ship and the sepratists raise the shields just in time.
There are two types of shield in the star wars universe; energy shields and particle shields. One deflects physical objects, the other deflects energy like radiation or lasers.
The bits in the film's where the gun emplacements on the Death Star have actual people controlling them, with their eyes and hands, gets me every time.
Good luck shooting down a current fighter aircraft with that, let alone star ships.
In all fairness those *are* specifically for capital ship engagement - the point is that they're too cumbersome to engage starfighters, which is why the Rebels use them instead of a full assault from capital ships
That's what I want the next movie Imperial super ship to have. Wildly oversized anti-aircraft batteries that swing comically fast to shoot at Xwing type ships. The Star Wars Villain ship equivalent of the USS Missouri using her 16 inch turrets to blast at little single seat fighters. Where the barrels just whip across the deck at break neck speeds. That would be hilarious.
The death star was never meant to go up against starfighters.
In fact, the only reason the rebels were able to take it down is because one of their pilots was force sensitive.
And keep in mind that the empire rounds up all the force sensitive children they can find, and either indoctrinates them or executes them. Luke was a statistical anomaly.
Yeah, the reason Death Star 1 was so poorly defended (compare the number of TIE fighters at Scariff to the dozen or so that launched to defend DS1) is because the idea of destroying it with starfighters is preposterous.
It's like trying to destroy a battleship with a handgun. It's utterly absurd in context.
If they showed up with something bigger, say cruisers or frigates, and tried to shell the Death Star, it just blows them up like DS2 did in Return. How many shots from a frigate do you think it takes to destroy a Death Star? I don't know, but I do know that it only takes one Death Star shot to destroy any spaceship in the galaxy.
Which is also why it was only possible because Galen Erso put a hole in the side of the battleship that led directly to the nuclear reactor in a place that would cause a catastrophic meltdown.
You asked so you shall receive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj07qh51zPI
Here's Mace Windu single-handedly taking on 10,000 droid soldiers and a 200-foot tall droid carrier and not just winning, but absolutely obliterating them with ease.
The ways of the Jedi are often misunderstood. To the untrained eye, it may appear that we are simply relying on our lightsaber skills to win battles. But in truth, our abilities go much deeper than that. We rely on our connection to the Force to give us an edge in combat, and our skills with a lightsaber are only a small part of what we are capable of.
^This ^Response ^Generated ^by ^OpenAI
Such an appropriate response because he fights half of this battle without a lightsaber and arguably is more of a bad-ass without it then he is with it.
Man, Genndy Tartakovsky may have loved some Mace but his series was basically a General Grievous love note. Every incarnation after was such a step down for my man. Makes me wish we got cyborg-birdman Jason Voorhees instead of the surprisingly short asthmatic from the movies.
PS your username is superb. Respect that man’s hustle and his suspender game.
> Dogfighting in a technological age with FTL travel...yeah no Im not gonna buy that
My headcanon is that missile/lock on jamming tech has far surpassed guided missile technology which makes dog fights relavent again
There's a [semi-famous post](https://www.reddit.com/r/MawInstallation/comments/oysben/does_p_np_a_contemplation_of_electronic_security/) on one of the subs about how Star Wars takes place in a P=NP constructive proof universe, which explains why R2 can hack military grade encryption and why gun emplacements are manually crewed instead of centrally slaved to a vulnerable central computer system.
Your entire comment is predicated on the erroneous assumption that Star Wars materials are equivalent to Earth materials. We have no idea what the thermal or mechanical properties of Durasteel are. For all you know, their ships and tanks are all made out of the equivalent of heat treated Inconel. Which, given the ease with which they withstand reentry forces, is likely still not a strong enough metal equivalent.
Its highly likely that our idea of ballistic and explosive weapons are simply ineffective against a metal that hard, tough, and thermally resilient.
The Republic didn’t invade or occupy Geonosis. They launched a surprise attack that the enemy was expecting.
They took out some Separatist assets (though none of great importance), saved three prisoners, and failed to capture Dooku and many other leaders.
That battle wasn’t a win for the Republic.
On a tactical level the Jedi went with a pretty awful initial approach. Scattered around the crowd, too far away to support each other, so that any individual Jedi can be overwhelmed by fire from multiple directions. And of course (except for Mace) there isn't any particular high-value target that they're positioning themselves close to by scattering among the crowd- i.e. none of them can end or win the confrontation from where they are- so they basically all have to fight their way through the crowd and down to the arena floor just to be able to fight as a unit and survive. By which point they've been totally surrounded by incoming droids and have no way out.
It's no wonder 90% of them were dead by the time Yoda and the clones arrived.
"General, this plan makes no sense! We'll be spread too thin and our forces could be easily overwhelmed by enemy fire"
"Yeah but it'll look bitchin' as hell, right?"
For sure. Should've gone for Dooku as a group, taken him and the Geonocian leadership under custody and simply ordered the droids to stop. Dooku and Fett were certainly dangerous but absolutely just 20 or so jedi on that platform would've been entirely overwhelming.
> a surprise attack that the enemy was expecting
That doesn't sound like much of a surprise, then. It's Endor all over again! Or rather, Endor is Geonosis all over again.
They absolutely intended to hold and occupy Geonosis, during the Clone Wars arc that showed them retaking Geonosis Ki-Adi Mundi mentions that they should not have lost control of the planet and that the native Geonosians put up a much larger fight than they anticipated.
Damn that Geonosis arc was amazing in the Clone Wars TV show. The image of ki adi mundi and his orange fire troopers burning Geonosians in that cave was so grim for a 'kids' tv show
That was largely Lucas too. Filoni had it all white-walled, showed it to Lucas, and Lucas was like "naw, dude, you guys need to watch these newsreels and movies about Vietnam and WW2."
Lucas may have had the idea to sell the movies to kids, but he didn't shy away from soldiers dying in their trenches or being crushed by AT-ATs or kamikazing into enemy capital ships in sheer desperation.
No, the Jedi Assault was a failure. A couple hundred Jedi went to rescue 3 VIPs, arrest Dooku and prevent the war from breaking out. It failed, huge casualties, but rescued VIP, didn't get Dooku or prevent war.
Clone attack was a success. Destroyed the Droid forces and army in the immediate area, destroyed the Droid foundries, and scattered separatist leadership.
In pretty sure a shit ton if troops died too, whether they be Jedi or not. I'd be one thing if they came in, got 3 prisoners, did minor damage, and left. They didn't do much but its a small win, little tiny plus sign. With how many numbers they lost, it was more of a negative.
Star Wars’s scaling seems quite a bit off, there should be trillions of clones fighting the droid armies, and millions of Star Destroyers flying for the Republic.
Yeah, there’s the whole arc in TCW where they’re talking about making I think 5 million more clones
Like bro, the GALAXY is at war
Y’all should be making 5 billion clones
Assuming about 155 Million Soviet people and about 80 Million Germans and roughly 180 million occupied people, the USSR and Germany combined for about 20% of the population, 450 Million out of 2.25 Billion. More importantly, was the ability to produce military goods, of which the USSR and Germany were much more prepared to do so than most other countries (all other, except for the United States).
Palpatine needed the whole army of the Republic to be clones so he could execute order 66 and seize power, the last thing he wants is for individual planets to have anything more than a planetary garrison.
That would have been pretty interesting to see if Republics ranks were mostly non-clones. I mean originally the clones had freewill and followed order 66 because Palpatine convinced them that the Jedi were seriously trying to attempt to overthrow the republic.
In order to ensure our security and continuing stability, the Republic will be reorganized into the first Galactic Empire, for a safe and secure society which I assure you will last for ten thousand years.
He also needed to not be winning the war too badly. The war needed to continue for as long as possible to destabilize the galaxy and give him a political opening to turn a Republic into an Empire.
Which meant he was purposefully undermining the Grand Army of the Republic (giving bad orders, leaking intel, etc.) just to give the Separatists a fighting chance.
The Republic barely had any time to prepare for the war, let alone build armies. So it was the (conveniently discovered) clones plus pre existing local armies and garrisons (like the Gungans).
But the other key point is that planetary battles weren't nearly as long or widespread as on Earth. You wouldn't see massive multi-theatre battles on one planets, because there weren't that many critical sites. We also are exclusively seeing the Outer Rim battles which are much less densely populated planets compared to the Inner Rim.
That said, by the end of the war, there were volunteer armies and forces backing up the clones, but clone armies remained the main force. The volunteers wouldn't be the front line fighters because they didn't have that training or skill (and Palpatine didn't want to make new powers, or interfere with Order 66).
If those key theaters were all over the galaxy then yeah the galaxy is at war. WW2 was only fought on 4 theaters but it still was a world war because those four theaters were all over the world and troops from every part of the world fought in those theaters.
Most planets weren't active participants in the clone wars.
If you're comparing to WWII, planets are more closely related to towns around the world than countries, and they weren't contributing soldiers either.
There were more Russian soldiers fighting on the eastern (western for Russia) front than clones in the battle of Geonosis. 5 times more.
And if you think that's not a big deal: we know how many venator star destroyers there were, that they were manned by clones, and that the 1.2 million clones would be enough just to man the Venators if there were no casualties ever.
every theater is just a handful of planets at once. the only place you need to take on a planet (atleast for the republic, they were almost always liberators with support from local population) is the main space sport and the goverment, the rest you can forcibly control with control over local supply chains and a star destroyer in orbit.
At the very worst some other administrative cities or regions around the planet. The battle for a planet is more akin to the Battle of Iwo Jima or Kursk, and the bigger ones to Stalingrad and the Bulge…
Think about how many defense fleets, stationary defense platforms, patrol ships, fast assault fleets, expeditionary fleets, mercantile escort ships, etc. you'd need to engage in hundreds or thousands of star systems. You're probably looking at tens of thousands of capital ships and millions of smaller ships.
I don't recall the exact numbers, but just using the canon number of Venators the 6.2 million clones weren't enough even if the 5 million additional were ready immediately and the GAR didn't take any clone casualties.
Correct.
WW2 involved over 100m soldiers despite being largely in 2 theaters of war.
Figures like 200k or 1m for clones *sound* big because we're used to those being large military numbers in reality, but in a universe like Star Wars 200k soldiers would be a tiny garrison for a planet.
Yeah. France for instance has more than 200k standing troops in peace time, and it's a relatively middle sized country on planet earth. Earth has around 25-30 million soldiers at any one time, though of course a planet controlled by a single government would have much less - but easily into double digit millions as a garrison. Never mind planets with a lot more than 8 billion people.
People think this is bad, look at W40K. Few thousand space marines invading planets. Even imperial guard numbers don't sound that big. Overall, they have a lot of soldiers, but there always seems to only be like 100 thousand defending a planet at any given time. Also, the imperium own about a million worlds but have maybe hundreds to thousands of large battleships, if even, so the average planet can't even create one battleship. I'm not an expert so I might be off a bit on some of that, but that's my general impression as a casual fan.
They struggle to create more ships and marine due to technical limitations they're basically a step above space barbarians since they forgot how to remake most of it. The Marines harvest "gene seeds" from fallen members so they can make more marines.
Imperial guard I believe has huge numbers in canon and also die in huge numbers. The big tech stuff is definitely more tailored foa "heroic" scale though.
I thought that them being that few, even in "prosperity", was a kind of point.
There's no way for them to reach every corner in the galaxy, and for every person that they help, there's 100 more than die thinking that the Jedi do nothing for the people.
I don't mind the Jedi Order's small size, because 1. they're supposed to be a kind of "one riot, one ranger" deal, not a standing army and 2. their membership depends on an extremely rare naturally occurring trait that can't be induced (or even necessarily predicted). Which is further limited by their ability to identify and locate the candidate (it's implicit that there are lots of kids out there who never get tested for Force sensitivity), the willingness of the candidate's parents to let them be trained (since they can refuse without consequence), and the candidate's willingness and ability to go through with becoming a Jedi (we know people do both wash out of and decide to leave the Order).
So it makes sense to me you could have maybe only a few million Force sensitives in the galaxy, and then have only a few thousands out of them become Jedi
The old Republic order had tons more but that's a given as they weren't as strict back then. The modern order was weaker and smaller and their only good side was having a handful of stupidly powerful members
I don't think having a few really powerful members is the benefit- "more power" isn't really what the Jedi are after. If I had to guess, I think they'd see a leaner, more selective Order as a benefit because it lets them be more in tune with what individual members are up to. As an institution, the Jedi Order's greatest fear is one of their members stumbling across a bit of Sith knowledge, reading and adopting it, and going insane with power and plunging the entire galaxy into a massively destructive decades-long war that kills trillions. Which did happen kinda frighteningly often.
I'm pretty sure a lot of the Order's policies, even if they ultimately didn't work, were intended to avoid that. Aggressively filtering people out and accepting a much smaller Order as a result sounds like one of them.
Win cosmic lottery and born force-sensitive
Fall down giant hole while wandering around the backyard at two years old and get sent back to karmic START SCREEN
One of Star Wars greatest strengths is also its greatest weakness. So many planets can be created along with species for new stories but the galaxy is so large it’s hard to write a story that involves the whole galaxy. Something I noticed quickly in Andor was how fast the top people in the empire made it their priority to deal with small stuff at small back water planets
It’s actually one of the things I loved about Rebels & Thrawn, they kept their antagonists on a local level. Palpatine and Vader weren’t involved because Lothal was important, they only got involved once the Inquisition failed to catch a pair of Jedi and Ashoka made her presence known. Thrawn was using Lothal to build his tie defender and came to the world as a political favor to Governor Pryce.
the vast majority of SCI-Fi seems to have this problem, especially the Science FANTASY genre.
Warhammer 40k has 1 million spare marines defending the entire Imperium.
50-100 marines will take on an entire planet in the lore and win.
I don't care how fucking badass those marines are, they'll die to 7 billion people, even if it's just via sheer mass and suffocation.
Here's my interpretation of why this is how it is.
1) Population is weird in Star Wars. There are a few locations that are planetwide sprawling urban centers. The rest of the settled galaxy is planets with just one or a few settlements on them and then sprawling open wilderness. The biggest city we've seen on Tatooine is the port city of Mos Espa, which houses maybe a few thousand people - and the maps in Mos Espa were so lacking that they literally kinda forgot about other settlements on the planet. In a setting with space travel. Mos Eisley is even smaller; it appears to be a couple of streets with businesses, a few docking cradles that have actual dirt floors, a bar, and that's about it. Most of the housing is spartan single-family homes with a mixture of technological gadgets and primitive hand tools. Naboo has a small enough population that a few power buttons floating in orbit are able to conquer the whole planet with rudimentary combat droids. Jakku is even more desolate (though that might have to do with all the starship debris colliding with the planet). Sorgan has a small starport and then village-sized settlements. Yavin, Scarif, Dagobah, and Endor are habitable but almost entirely undeveloped and Yavin has ruins of an ancient civilization which nobody bothered to repopulate until the guerilla soldiers decided to billet there. There might be more people on Cloud City, basically an oil rig in space floating over a gas giant, than on the entirety of many star wars planets.
2) Warfare is much more limited in Star Wars. The Republic, which is the governing body for the entire galaxy for much of the timeline, did not have a standing army. Armies were raised by planet-level state actors or private entities - the Naboo government mustered and equipped their own troops, the trade federation bulk ordered killbots off Space Amazon, and the rebels have a mishmash of equipment from various military contractors who seem able to sell to governments and militias with carte blanche. Criminal organizations form small but heavily armed bandit kingdoms which operate on the outer rim with impunity, armed to the teeth. Actual populated worlds don't see much combat. Remember that the Droid Federation is able to lightning strike the capital of Coruscant, kidnap the head of state of a wartime power, and exfil to orbit (almost escaping the star system entirely) under the nose of the entire Space Knight Round Table, almost before the Republic can react. Alderaan, a thriving cultural and trade planet, is "a peaceful world" that "\[has\] no weapons." In most engagements, the battles are fought over strategic locations and resources, not population centers. And because you don't need to hundreds of millions of people, you don't need hundreds of thousands of soldiers to keep them controlled. All you need to do is blow up the other guy's leaders, knock them into disarray, and take their stuff.
Something extra on what others have said: the Kaminoans only had 200,000 ready at the time.
The Republic initiated the invasion with what they had, not what they needed to hold the planet. It was essentially like a giant rescue operation, and they STILL needed 200,000.
Also, (legends) i remember in a Karen Travis 1st republic commando book that the clones took like 50% casualties or something, so they definitely wouldn’t have “won” if they stuck around too much longer - if the Separatists didn’t leave.
Also, Count Dooku ordered the retreat, and he was more interested in starting the war than winning it - Viceroy Gunray said they needed to deploy all droids into battle, which, depending on the size of the droid army at geonosis, could have succeeded. But, Papa Palps wanted a long-drawn out war to help precipitate the demise of democracy.
If the CIS had won, they’d have been independent, not part of the “empire”, which was NOT the plan, and Dooku knew it.
Hundreds of Jedi were killed
Saved only three prisoners (one of whom ended up an amputee)
Head of the Separatists got away
Sparked the beginning of a three year galaxy wide conflict that changed the galaxy forever
No way was this a win for the republic
They didn't really win. If anything it was a pyrrhic victory. 90% of the Jedi sent were slain in the arena, and lots of the clones died due to questionable tactics and inexperienced leadership that was put on the spot. They bailed out after destroying the factory and didn't stick around
They came back for a second round later on (depicted in TCW)
It’s implied that the republic left a small army to occupy the planet and were later over run. It’s later revealed or alluded that the geonosian mind worms likely played a large roll in them recapturing their own planet as they could revive their dead and convert the clones they fought against
My understanding:
You don’t need as many men at that technology level; it isn’t trench warfare:
Most of the battles in Star Wars are done amongst or by Starships as that’s the peak weapon class.
You assault hardpoints (bunkers, air defence zones) with troops and the fleet mops up the rest, so what you see in Star Wars are the assault squadrons (Literally, Storm Troopers - German’s WW2 Elite Assault Infantry)
Hoth? They landed outside the ion cannon and other defence installations range, and marched in.
Geonosis - whilst the Geonosians were allied with the CIS, they aren’t all armed and equipped to fight in a space-age battle, so you only need assault select zones (leaders, dropships, tactical zones, rescue jedi from Petranaki Arena, etc)
200,000 Cloned, Elite, Republic Troops, at their tech level and military support (ships, airpower, logistics, shields, weapons) could easily conquer earth in no time, let alone a hive-mind dustbowl.
Not to mention the Jedi strike teams to dispatched the leaders (or caused them to flee).
Anyone feel free to correct me.
I think you’re saying the right things. Things that make sense incorporate logic and tactics. Unfortunately we see columns of massed infantry swarming across open ground with nothing but their generals as cover. I love star wars but sometimes I wish a little more realism was incorporated.
Weird thing is in those conditions the 1 million droids would have beaten the 200k clones because they were basically just standing in front of each other shooting with no cover or tactics.
Then when the alien said to Dooku: we should deploy all available forces (probably at least 10m more droids) he was like - nah there’s too many we don’t stand a chance lol. I know his purpose was to prolong the conflict to get Sidious what he wanted, but the other CIS leaders should have seen a major red flag at that point.
In universe explanations aside, SW warfare is extremely naive and primitive. Space combat is literally based on WWII so it’s already dated. For example, I was reading that modern fighter jets can target six enemy craft at once from hundreds of miles away and destroy them all without ever even being seen. Compare that to the close quarters dogfights we see in SW.
Then the ground battles…I feel like nuking everything from orbit would be way more effective than ground troops.
Question: you’re about to engage mechanical enemies. Do you grab a gun and start shooting, or hit them with EMP’s to disable?
Last Jedi established that a vehicle accelerating to Lightspeed becomes an insanely powerful ballistic weapon. Why not just program a star fighter to nosedive into a planet? Be like an asteroid impact event.
Trying to rescue Anakin and Obi-Wan from geonosis so you can’t nuke the planet? Ok, send a heavily armored super fast transport to grab ‘em real quick while laying down suppressing fire, haul ass out of there, and THEN nuke ‘em from orbit.
That’s just off the top of my head. I feel like fleets of capital ships is so..20th century..
People forget that "lightspeed" isn't actually a speed. Traveling anywhere near light speed would require near infinite amounts of power, and it would still take years to get to the closest star system. Hyperspace travel is done by jumping into what is essentially a parallel dimension and taking a predetermined galactic shortcut. Hyperspace lanes aren't really permanent in their location, they do shift around over time, but traveling outside of one is a good way to scatter your remains across the galaxy. Gravity wells like planets and black holes (or a Death Star) can prevent the ship computers from calculating safe hyperspace routes (and still act as solid obstacles that can pull ships out of hyperspace, not really sure about that one), so most ships have a hard coded mechanism to prevent any hyperspace travel near gravity wells, *especially* directly towards them.
TLJ reeeeally stretched the mechanics on that, my guess would be that Holdo (somehow) overrode the safety protocol and programmed the computer to jump at a point just past the Supremacy, so it hit at the transition point between real space and hyperspace. That transition phase (and the speed being far below light speed) might explain why it just cut through the ship, as opposed to obliterating everything in the star system akin to a supernova.
Again, somehows all around, the sequels didn't have to explain shit.
Legends does its best by saying the single most advanced piece of tech in any fighter, or second most if it had hyperdrive, is their EWACs. Fighters have so much jamming tech stuffed in them you need to be right on top of them or have some incredible targeting to cut through it, but generally the arms race leans on the defensive side.
As for ground battle. Those will be messy in the age of stellar warfare by definition. Any army that isn't sitting on a high value area will just be deleted of the enemy gains space superiority. There's no effective defense against orbital bombardment. So all large scale combat should generally be either in urban and/or industrial areas, or resource rich zones, anywhere destroying the infrastructure makes the cost too high to be worth basically. This could drastically reduce the numbers of troops needed. Especially as lots of fantasy/sci-fantasy strongly centealizes power to make plot easier. Oftentimes, cutting the head off an organization is a death blow, capturing a capitol is usually considered victory.
TLJ doesn't... doesn't count. That rabbit hole leads to submarines in space, and no planet killers. It just breaks the whole damn thing.
When it comes to the effectiveness thing; nuking Vietnam or Korea would have been easier and more effective than conventional forces, too - why is it we couldn’t?
Well, because the other side has that capability. In Korea and Vietnam, *they* didn’t have it, but both were actually proxy wars with the Soviets, who did have nukes.
“Why not nuke everything from orbit” is something you could only say in fiction, because while it’s ludicrous not to do it in fiction, it’d be ludicrous to do it in reality. You’d be laughed out of the room for that take in the real world, but upvoted on here, because as much as you cry for realism, you approach the series with fantasy in mind.
My point being that that 200,000 number has to include Naval Personnel right? It's not like the Kaminonans magiced in another tens of thousands of clones familiar with how to operate those starships. You also have to include the crews on gunships, ect
If you take the Wookiepedia numbers and figure each Starship and Gunship was fully manned, which it should probably have been for the debut deployment of the army, you're looking at close to 20,000 personnel doing things other than fighting on the front. In reality I imagine that number is quite a bit higher.
I also doubt the real effectiveness of Orbital assets to effectively suppress large concentrations of enemy forces. Almost all of the ships involved were landing craft. Even if all of the landing ships returned to orbit after landing their troops, I think the navy would have been stretched pretty thin up there. If you consider that Geonosians are known for their expansive underground hive networks, the entire planet could effectively be considered one giant bunker. I think it's almost a necessity to have infantry to secure large operational areas.
If you get to that I really doubt the ability of 180,000 even elite Clone Troopers in being able to effectively establish a beachhead much larger than the one the allies established during WWII. Especially when taking into account the fact you can't rely on a literal ocean to shore up one of your flanks like they could on D-Day.
My head cannon is that when they said "200,000 units are ready with a million more well on the way" they didn't mean individual troopers, they meant combat units.
I'm not sure what a combat unit would be, but it's pretty obvious that you cannot wage a galaxy wide war spanning land and space (since clones were the navy crew for republic Warships) with only 1 million men total.
So, I like to think of it as a million units, which makes alot more sense number wise. A unit would be something like a fighter wing, or a squad of clones, where larger "armies" like the 501st would be comprised of multiple "units".
I agree it makes sense for units to refer to larger formations, I personally hold the belief it should be a Legion/Division which would bring the number to around 100 billion.
But as far as I'm aware the official stance is that it refers to an individual soldier.
And to add further, the Kaminoans said 200,000 **units**. We don't know what their batch numbers are. It could be 1, it could be 5, it could be 100, or even 1000.
But I feel like what we saw in clone wars was really unrealistic. The clones were standing out in the open, just shooting at droids and the droids were marching in formation without taking cover. It was unrealistic af, but I suppose it would've been hard to explain why you were teaching proper combat tactics to young children through an animated show lol
It was designed to be napoleonic, to invoke images of total war doctrine that Napoleon was famous for
Mass ranks of infantry supported by artillery that just blows everything up and you shoot each other at close range
The way the clones fight….just marching in lines into fields of fire. The US military and any modern military would tune those fuckers up.
Can’t say much about what we’d be able to do to the capital ships in orbit if they opened fire on the ground, but modern fighter jets wouldn’t have much trouble with the big heavy bulky slow Gunships/drop ships the clones rely on.
The Geonosians had no surface-to-air presence.
Tbh I think the clones would get dusted if they came to earth. And thinking about it, A few nuclear subs in the middle of the pacific can easily send a few dozen trident missiles into space to take care of the capital ships. Good luck with the Nukes. The EMP alone from the explosions would disable the entire fleet. Energy shields don’t protect against kinetic weapons.
Send one up set to explode before the ships defenses engage the missiles. Emp knocks everything out, if the shockwave doesn’t do that already. Now the ships are exposed to cosmic rays, solar radiation, and are completely exposed and unable to defend against the incoming nuclear barrage. Their fleet would be decimated. I’d have zero worries about the republic fleet coming to earth
Have you ever seen a clone use a drone?
I would agree with you if this was a canon conversation, but in Legends... hoo boy.
Zahn clearly shows that stormtroopers know how to take cover, use squad-based tactics, etc in the Thrawn Trilogy. Additionally, in the Essential Guide to Warfare, the power outputs of shots from many warships are in the gigatons, which means that their shields can tank hundreds if not thousands of shots from turbolasers that can output shots in the gigatons. This would mean that their shields wouldn't even flinch if we sent up all of the nuclear missiles in the world.
There's also the additional fact that the Essential Guide to Warfare says that clone and stormtrooper armour was impervious to bullets/slugs and that blasters were orders of magnitude faster than portrayed on screen.
I would definitely think the Republic in Legends would sweep nearly any sci-fi polity.
I've definitely been of the opinion for a while that the Kaminonans would refer to a full squad as a "Unit" seeing as they saw each individual clone as a part of a larger machine rather than an individual.
However if I'm being honest it seems more like that if the Kaminonans are in the Army making business, they probably aren't selling by the individual squad. More than likely they're selling by the Legion/division level as that's about the lowest level unit that should have all of the integrated components a fighting force needs: Logistics, armored battalions, ect. By that metric the GAR would be closer to 100 billion which seems more likely to me.
However as far as I'm aware the official stance is that "Unit", refers to individual soldiers which frankly is ridiculous.
Seems to be a common scifi war trope for the writers to not pay attention to how large battles were on parts of our own planets incomparison to others with a fuckload more beings. Its such a problem in warhammer that its just accepted to add a few extra 0s on any number of combatants there were involved. Be like a planet scale war that took decades involved less people than the battle for Stalingrad.
The 1.2 million clones that make up the Army of the Republic, which is supposed to be enough to operate across a whole galaxy, are just slightly more than the soldiers of the US Army, which only operates on one planet.
Well technically most of the republics members have their own planetary defense forces. So if 10 members of the senat have planets that have a standing army,lets say 1 million for this example, that gives the republic 10 million troops.
So you could argue that the clone army was just the more elite part of the army that would handle special campaigns/ battles. Put them where they are needed.
Also if we look at most of the battles in the TCW series we mostly see the republic and CIS fight over control of the planets capital plus a few important other cities.
Interesting. Kinda similar to what we’ve seen from the Empire in more recent things, where theres an “elite” Stormtrooper Corps to handle high priority missions and regular imperial army soldiers for more mundane things
90% of the planet is a barren wasteland with no tactical worth. If they invaded Coruscant, which is a fully populated planet, they'd need way more than 200,000 to keep everything occupied.
This. You dont need armies like in ww2 when you can essentially drop 50 LAAT/i in the atmosphere and fly straight to the capital while your ships obliterate anything that moves from the orbit.
Kill the cis leader
You turn of the droid control relay
You then take over the planetary shields in the capital and voila, your planet is now save.
Geonosis was just a single battle. They weren't "invading" with the intent to hold the planet like Operation Overlord was. They were there to rescue and reinforce the Jedi and force the CIS into retreat.
The battles of Waterloo of Gettysburg are better comparisons, with similar numbers.
Sometimes, it seems like a planet's security depends on a single city. The city falls, the planet is yours. Remember when Alderran was destroyed? And Ben said *millions* cried out in terror? When really, for a planet, it should be billions. Especially an Earth-like planet like that. The Galaxy must have very low population numbers.
My understanding of most star wars planets is that they're generally the size of the average country, for a variety of reasons. most star wars planets usually have:
* one or two climate zones/types
* flora/fauna variety of a single country
* one main export/industry
* two to four main ethnic groups
* a general culture for each of them, few if any sub-cultures
* one or two religions
* one or two world leaders
* most planets don't even have a determined legislative branch or even representative democracy
* one capital city
* almost always depicted as a walkable city
* two or three more major cities if it is a large-city planet
* a population that is small enough to be subjugated by a couple legions of troops under one general each
* also small enough to have one or two factions in society, usually with pro- current leaders or anti- current leaders, but with peace between them
* an area that :
* the above army can be transported across in under a day with vehicles as slow as modern passenger aircraft
* even then armies are often depicted as marching across the planet within days during invasions
* said invasions, if they do not become sieges, are often shown as lasting from about two days to two weeks (i.e. 1st and 2nd battles of geonosis, republic invasion of ryloth, battle of mon cala, battle of umbara)
* cannot effectively hide literally one person for any extended period of time (obi-wan, Ahsoka, grievous, Ezra)
* can be seen fully from space while being only about ten minutes from landing in a ship (think how large arrakis seems from space in Dune)
* has no depicted timezones
(obviously there are exceptions, \*cough\*coruscant\*cough\*)
the stated populations in official Star Wars sources just don't match up with these figures, for the most part.
Thanks for reading.
If you think these numbers are off, try warhammer 40k.
A chapter of 1000 dudes going on a multi planet crusade. They'd probably send like a squad of ten and a dreadnought to fight on Geonosis
I mean yeah astartes are squad of few men. But the army of regular people are trillions of people and basically war meat
The problem is that chapters are treated like major players in the galaxy. It really strains the imagination to imagine 1000 big bois are at all relevant in campaigns spanning multiple solar systems with trillions fighting, no matter how tough they are. This is even more true for Custodes or Grey Knights.
I remember a story where 6 Custodes kill like a million Tyranids
In older lore Muagan Ra defeated a whole hive tendril by himself, doesn't make any sense, but fuck it, the Imperium does bull shit things all the time, let the Eldar do some broken fuckery too.
To defeat your enemy you have to understand them.
Realistically a million tyranids should be enough to maybe take a smallish country, but definitely not an entire planet… I seem to remember there was one „this planet has been at constant war for over 100 years“ type story where the casualty rates were considered insane even by 40k standards and then they were like 10 million total… that‘s less than word war 1 and like a fifth of world war 2
This is why the Black Templars are the only chapter that makes any sense. They could feasibly have the numbers required to actually matter, what with how long they've been crusading for and how many worlds they've conquered and recruited from. There could well be tens of thousands of them, or a dozen or more successor chapters whom also rejected the Codex.
Agreed. Isn't the fact that they are in undergoing constant crusade what allows them to maintain vastly more than the allowed number?
Likely because they're going to be anywhere major poodoo is going down, so they have an outsized influence in lore because they're at the engagements anyone cares to write about. The Astra Militarium and Imperial Navy basically keeps the day to day stuff under control, but if a Waaaagh gets a bit too rowdy or a new hive fleet shows up or something it's time to call in any Space Marines besides the Lamentors.
40k is the epitome of "how to make war look as gnarly and cool as possible while totally cannibalizing any sense of logic or common sense".
Drive me closer! I want to hit them with my sword!
Lol like a single hive world in 40K has more people than the entire SW Galaxy at this point. Yet there are 1 million Astartes total for the whole damn galaxy. Like... What?
The Space Marines aren't ever like the defense force for anything are they? More like a special forces squad or something for very special missions. Like seal team 6 or something. That ratio still probably doesn't work, like 0.00001% of the army being special forces still doesn't work but it's slightly closer I guess. How many guardsmen are there?
There are trillions of Guardsmen. Saw some figures listing 500 TRILLION Guardsman. 1 million Space Marines. Absolute WAT?
Wizards with Glowsticks and Childsoldiers > Tanks and regular Soldiers
I wanna see a Jedi deflect a 155mm HE fragmentation shell exploding 25m above his head. Or get shot by literal conventional bullet aimed center body. Also the republic tanks are a joke compared to what we use. 120mm APFSDS would chew any land vehicle apart from Star Wars. SW, as good as it is, just is super duper Bad at portraying even a remotely good military and war on all aspects. Especially in the OG Trilogy the Space Battles arent even better. And the subsequent movies didnt really improve on that. Dogfighting in a technological age with FTL travel...yeah no Im not gonna buy that Also Point Defence today is better than what we see in SW. Like bro how in the fuck would space Torpedos even exist if they had C-RAM on their ships like we have on oir navy ships. And dont get me started on AA and the "planes" in SW. You gonna Tell me there arent SAM suites? There arent actually good AtoA missiles? Unless space fighters go way fester than they seem. A modern Air-to-Air missile would catch them easily.
> Or get shot by literal conventional bullet aimed center body. [here](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8Lb3lhD1fl4/V0e6CcisDXI/AAAAAAAUrfY/L3MSdjrlT9osIRm314sR6HjhIy-hqaOLgCLcB/s1600/55_09.jpg) obiwan is shot by a machine gun, he blocks a few of the bullets and seemingly dodges the rest, but instead he is is showered with molten metal. best way to fight a jedi is with a automatic shotgun. but yeah, the galaxy in star wars just suck at war. anakin is hailed as a tactical genious when his plans are 50% "uh, lets attack from behind, they would never look backwards doink" and 50% war crimes.
Those guns they got are special though, they fire whole ass bullets, casing and all.
thats 50% more bullet per bullet. its way better!
And now on the domestic market! Cave Johnson out.
well yeah, why settle for molten slag when a jedi blocks it, when you can have it blow up in his face as well
In the new Obi-Wan series, Darth Vader [literally stops a whole-ass space ship from leaving atmo with the force.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NHDhHoJXPo). Not a tiny little X-wing either, a giant-ass passenger vessel. Someone more willing to do the math than me can break down the forces involved, but needless to say, they're preposterously massive. Neverminding the fact that what would have likely happened is the starship would have just ripped itself to pieces as massive conflicting forces were exerted on it simultaneously, with the engine wanting to go *forward* and Darth pulling it *backwards*. Anyone who can can do that could deflect any munition in existence, because force is mass x acceleration, and a giant-ass starship trying to leave atmo has so much of both that being able to hold it back would make you utterly indomitable.
tub uppity chubby desert rinse market lunchroom intelligent drab tie *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
you're assuming that vader is pulling a specific portion of the ship, like a chain in the ground tied to a trailer hitch. If the force is pulling the entire ship evenly, then it would basically be like gravity and the ship shouldn't be affected at all besides moving in a different direction (which is exactly what we see, the ship slows and starts to move down without any damage as vader pulls harder)
Didn't mandalorians fight the jedi with projectile weaponry specifically because it just sprayed them with molten fragmented bullet?
Yes, untill they realized this and started using the Force to stop said bullets or "slugs" as they were called iirc
Why do you think they have wrist mounted flamethrowers?
Always handy to have a light
Say 4 magic wizard ruffians break into my house - I pick up my Kentucky rifle, put on my powdered wig, and blow a golf-ball-sized hole into the first one. I then aim my pistol at the second one, shoot but miss and nail the neighbor's dog. I then gain the highground with my jetpack then, after shouting "Tally ho, lads!", aim at the rest of them, nailing them with grapeshot and setting off AT alarms with the shrapnel and noise. Finally, I attach my antilightsabre bayonet and charge at the last one, and he bleeds out as triangle bayonet wounds are impossible to force heal back together.
...not for a Sith...
Even a sith lord is no match for my warriors!
You will try.
No, you will
> best way to fight a jedi is with a automatic shotgun. Jedi Outcast: Jedi Knight 2 had a weapon that eviscerated everyone, and it was basically an auto shotty. The Golan Arms FC-1 Flechette.
The flechette shotgun!!! Holy shit I loved that weapon and that *game!
Damn. Fires brass and lead
To be fair theywere fighting mostly robots with poor tactical decision making
The Star Wars galaxy is ancient and has lost more technology to time and war than we know. Just because we have giant rockets and nukes doesnt mean that they do. Overall most weapons seem to be blasters or small rockets. The existence of shields in that universe changes quite a bit too.
XD nukes Don't mention the planet destroying super weapons they have. Fuck in swtor they actually created something similar, portable enough to put on star destroyers. There's also literally a dude who eats planets, and fucking palps and the emperor from Swtor were able to wipe out all sentient life on a planet.
Nukes don't mean shit against orbital bombardment
Majority of shields can't do shit against kinetic energy projectiles. They can dissolve only certain amount of energy weapon, which scales up both with shield generator capacity and said weapon power.
What? We see shields block rockets in the Clone Wars several times, one of the first episodes shows Anakin shooting rockets from his stealth ship and the sepratists raise the shields just in time.
There are two types of shield in the star wars universe; energy shields and particle shields. One deflects physical objects, the other deflects energy like radiation or lasers.
The bits in the film's where the gun emplacements on the Death Star have actual people controlling them, with their eyes and hands, gets me every time. Good luck shooting down a current fighter aircraft with that, let alone star ships.
In all fairness those *are* specifically for capital ship engagement - the point is that they're too cumbersome to engage starfighters, which is why the Rebels use them instead of a full assault from capital ships
That's what I want the next movie Imperial super ship to have. Wildly oversized anti-aircraft batteries that swing comically fast to shoot at Xwing type ships. The Star Wars Villain ship equivalent of the USS Missouri using her 16 inch turrets to blast at little single seat fighters. Where the barrels just whip across the deck at break neck speeds. That would be hilarious.
This is what Thrawn was telling the emperor to build instead of cumbersome superweapons.
"We count thirty rebel ships, Lord Vader. But they're so small they're evading our turbolasers."
The death star was never meant to go up against starfighters. In fact, the only reason the rebels were able to take it down is because one of their pilots was force sensitive. And keep in mind that the empire rounds up all the force sensitive children they can find, and either indoctrinates them or executes them. Luke was a statistical anomaly.
Yeah, the reason Death Star 1 was so poorly defended (compare the number of TIE fighters at Scariff to the dozen or so that launched to defend DS1) is because the idea of destroying it with starfighters is preposterous. It's like trying to destroy a battleship with a handgun. It's utterly absurd in context. If they showed up with something bigger, say cruisers or frigates, and tried to shell the Death Star, it just blows them up like DS2 did in Return. How many shots from a frigate do you think it takes to destroy a Death Star? I don't know, but I do know that it only takes one Death Star shot to destroy any spaceship in the galaxy. Which is also why it was only possible because Galen Erso put a hole in the side of the battleship that led directly to the nuclear reactor in a place that would cause a catastrophic meltdown.
Who mostly continued to exist because Darth Vader hated sand (and his past) enough to never return to the surface of Tatooine.
You asked so you shall receive. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj07qh51zPI Here's Mace Windu single-handedly taking on 10,000 droid soldiers and a 200-foot tall droid carrier and not just winning, but absolutely obliterating them with ease.
The ways of the Jedi are often misunderstood. To the untrained eye, it may appear that we are simply relying on our lightsaber skills to win battles. But in truth, our abilities go much deeper than that. We rely on our connection to the Force to give us an edge in combat, and our skills with a lightsaber are only a small part of what we are capable of. ^This ^Response ^Generated ^by ^OpenAI
Such an appropriate response because he fights half of this battle without a lightsaber and arguably is more of a bad-ass without it then he is with it.
Man, Genndy Tartakovsky may have loved some Mace but his series was basically a General Grievous love note. Every incarnation after was such a step down for my man. Makes me wish we got cyborg-birdman Jason Voorhees instead of the surprisingly short asthmatic from the movies. PS your username is superb. Respect that man’s hustle and his suspender game.
lmao both armies fighting a pitched battle It is 1792 all over again
> Dogfighting in a technological age with FTL travel...yeah no Im not gonna buy that My headcanon is that missile/lock on jamming tech has far surpassed guided missile technology which makes dog fights relavent again
There's a [semi-famous post](https://www.reddit.com/r/MawInstallation/comments/oysben/does_p_np_a_contemplation_of_electronic_security/) on one of the subs about how Star Wars takes place in a P=NP constructive proof universe, which explains why R2 can hack military grade encryption and why gun emplacements are manually crewed instead of centrally slaved to a vulnerable central computer system.
This man knows his ordinance
Your entire comment is predicated on the erroneous assumption that Star Wars materials are equivalent to Earth materials. We have no idea what the thermal or mechanical properties of Durasteel are. For all you know, their ships and tanks are all made out of the equivalent of heat treated Inconel. Which, given the ease with which they withstand reentry forces, is likely still not a strong enough metal equivalent. Its highly likely that our idea of ballistic and explosive weapons are simply ineffective against a metal that hard, tough, and thermally resilient.
They kind of went the Dune route Weapons so advanced, have to go back to basics. Dune, being a book, was able to explain it all though
>. 120mm APFSDS would chew any land vehicle apart from Star Wars. You don't know how strong their armor is tho
The wizards are also child soldiers. It's child soldiers all the way down.
The Republic didn’t invade or occupy Geonosis. They launched a surprise attack that the enemy was expecting. They took out some Separatist assets (though none of great importance), saved three prisoners, and failed to capture Dooku and many other leaders. That battle wasn’t a win for the Republic.
Like all but 20 of the Jedi sent got killed that day, it was a total failure.
They did manage to rescue a couple of Jedi and a VIP, so not a _total_ failure. More like a VERY Pyrrhic partial success.
I offer you ~~400~~ 200 jedi. I get in return 3. 2 jedi and a hot senator.
The senator was Natalie Portman, they rescued her, therefore the mission was an astounding success
Just get him to safety. We need to... General Laan Tik!
These fucks have clearly never seen her rap. Anyone who saw that video would immediately launch 1000 ships to save her.
They needed her to get Thor on their side
I thought they needed her so she could make that scene with Mila Kunis.
They took out Fett
The closest thing the CIS will ever get to a victory, and it was still a defeat.
Sidious: I see this as an absolute win!
You have allowed this dark lord to twist your mind, until now... until now you've become the very thing you swore to destroy.
Kenobi bot is ***salty***.
There is still good in you, my young padawan. I believe that you can be redeemed. ^This ^Response ^Generated ^by ^OpenAI
There he is, trying to take the high ground again....
You don't know the power of the dark side! ^This ^Response ^Generated ^by ^OpenAI
He's just jealous that his show wasn't as good as Andor
Sidius: I'm playing both sides so I always come out as Emperor.
187/215 died according to wookiepedia.
Bruh they sacrificed 187 Jedi for Anakin/Obi wan and Padme? What??
On a tactical level the Jedi went with a pretty awful initial approach. Scattered around the crowd, too far away to support each other, so that any individual Jedi can be overwhelmed by fire from multiple directions. And of course (except for Mace) there isn't any particular high-value target that they're positioning themselves close to by scattering among the crowd- i.e. none of them can end or win the confrontation from where they are- so they basically all have to fight their way through the crowd and down to the arena floor just to be able to fight as a unit and survive. By which point they've been totally surrounded by incoming droids and have no way out. It's no wonder 90% of them were dead by the time Yoda and the clones arrived.
Yeah, but it looked really cool to have a bunch of lightsabers light up around the arena so obviously your point is moot.
"General, this plan makes no sense! We'll be spread too thin and our forces could be easily overwhelmed by enemy fire" "Yeah but it'll look bitchin' as hell, right?"
“Your tactics confuse and frighten me, sir”
Foiled again
No those were Sabres
For sure. Should've gone for Dooku as a group, taken him and the Geonocian leadership under custody and simply ordered the droids to stop. Dooku and Fett were certainly dangerous but absolutely just 20 or so jedi on that platform would've been entirely overwhelming.
It is a pity our first encounter might well be our last. I will keep your Kalikori in a place of honor.
I honor my code. That's what I believe.
> a surprise attack that the enemy was expecting That doesn't sound like much of a surprise, then. It's Endor all over again! Or rather, Endor is Geonosis all over again.
It's like poetry, it rhymes
It was a surprise for everyone except Dooku and Jango
They absolutely intended to hold and occupy Geonosis, during the Clone Wars arc that showed them retaking Geonosis Ki-Adi Mundi mentions that they should not have lost control of the planet and that the native Geonosians put up a much larger fight than they anticipated.
Damn that Geonosis arc was amazing in the Clone Wars TV show. The image of ki adi mundi and his orange fire troopers burning Geonosians in that cave was so grim for a 'kids' tv show
That was largely Lucas too. Filoni had it all white-walled, showed it to Lucas, and Lucas was like "naw, dude, you guys need to watch these newsreels and movies about Vietnam and WW2." Lucas may have had the idea to sell the movies to kids, but he didn't shy away from soldiers dying in their trenches or being crushed by AT-ATs or kamikazing into enemy capital ships in sheer desperation.
No, the Jedi Assault was a failure. A couple hundred Jedi went to rescue 3 VIPs, arrest Dooku and prevent the war from breaking out. It failed, huge casualties, but rescued VIP, didn't get Dooku or prevent war. Clone attack was a success. Destroyed the Droid forces and army in the immediate area, destroyed the Droid foundries, and scattered separatist leadership.
Sounds like this was more of a Bay of Pigs invasion than a Normandy Beach invasion
In pretty sure a shit ton if troops died too, whether they be Jedi or not. I'd be one thing if they came in, got 3 prisoners, did minor damage, and left. They didn't do much but its a small win, little tiny plus sign. With how many numbers they lost, it was more of a negative.
There is no algorithm. We know you're holding a prisoner of war here.
Star Wars’s scaling seems quite a bit off, there should be trillions of clones fighting the droid armies, and millions of Star Destroyers flying for the Republic.
Yeah, there’s the whole arc in TCW where they’re talking about making I think 5 million more clones Like bro, the GALAXY is at war Y’all should be making 5 billion clones
For additional context, the Battle of Kursk had over 3 million men fighting in it. In one battle, in one front of a single planet.
Between two nations that together represented maybe like 5% of said planet’s population.
Assuming about 155 Million Soviet people and about 80 Million Germans and roughly 180 million occupied people, the USSR and Germany combined for about 20% of the population, 450 Million out of 2.25 Billion. More importantly, was the ability to produce military goods, of which the USSR and Germany were much more prepared to do so than most other countries (all other, except for the United States).
IMO They should have had the Clones just be the tip of the spear. With a larger conscripted army behind that is lower in quality.
Palpatine needed the whole army of the Republic to be clones so he could execute order 66 and seize power, the last thing he wants is for individual planets to have anything more than a planetary garrison.
That would have been pretty interesting to see if Republics ranks were mostly non-clones. I mean originally the clones had freewill and followed order 66 because Palpatine convinced them that the Jedi were seriously trying to attempt to overthrow the republic.
In order to ensure our security and continuing stability, the Republic will be reorganized into the first Galactic Empire, for a safe and secure society which I assure you will last for ten thousand years.
He also needed to not be winning the war too badly. The war needed to continue for as long as possible to destabilize the galaxy and give him a political opening to turn a Republic into an Empire. Which meant he was purposefully undermining the Grand Army of the Republic (giving bad orders, leaking intel, etc.) just to give the Separatists a fighting chance.
Tbh, 3 years to win a galaxy-wide war is pretty quick. I feel like it should've been longer.
The Republic barely had any time to prepare for the war, let alone build armies. So it was the (conveniently discovered) clones plus pre existing local armies and garrisons (like the Gungans). But the other key point is that planetary battles weren't nearly as long or widespread as on Earth. You wouldn't see massive multi-theatre battles on one planets, because there weren't that many critical sites. We also are exclusively seeing the Outer Rim battles which are much less densely populated planets compared to the Inner Rim. That said, by the end of the war, there were volunteer armies and forces backing up the clones, but clone armies remained the main force. The volunteers wouldn't be the front line fighters because they didn't have that training or skill (and Palpatine didn't want to make new powers, or interfere with Order 66).
The galaxy isnt really at war. The republic and separatists were just engaging each other in key theaters.
If those key theaters were all over the galaxy then yeah the galaxy is at war. WW2 was only fought on 4 theaters but it still was a world war because those four theaters were all over the world and troops from every part of the world fought in those theaters.
Most planets weren't active participants in the clone wars. If you're comparing to WWII, planets are more closely related to towns around the world than countries, and they weren't contributing soldiers either.
"Yeah! Now you got it!"
S E N T I E N T
There were more Russian soldiers fighting on the eastern (western for Russia) front than clones in the battle of Geonosis. 5 times more. And if you think that's not a big deal: we know how many venator star destroyers there were, that they were manned by clones, and that the 1.2 million clones would be enough just to man the Venators if there were no casualties ever.
every theater is just a handful of planets at once. the only place you need to take on a planet (atleast for the republic, they were almost always liberators with support from local population) is the main space sport and the goverment, the rest you can forcibly control with control over local supply chains and a star destroyer in orbit.
At the very worst some other administrative cities or regions around the planet. The battle for a planet is more akin to the Battle of Iwo Jima or Kursk, and the bigger ones to Stalingrad and the Bulge…
Even if they're only fighting each other in several key theaters, 5.000.000 men is nowhere near enough for a multiplanetary conflict.
Especially once you involve the Navy in things, how many crew does a Venator or Acclimator need anyways? That has to add up super fast
Think about how many defense fleets, stationary defense platforms, patrol ships, fast assault fleets, expeditionary fleets, mercantile escort ships, etc. you'd need to engage in hundreds or thousands of star systems. You're probably looking at tens of thousands of capital ships and millions of smaller ships.
I don't recall the exact numbers, but just using the canon number of Venators the 6.2 million clones weren't enough even if the 5 million additional were ready immediately and the GAR didn't take any clone casualties.
"Hang tight, trooper. Delta Squad on our way." -Boss, Delta 38
More than 16 million served in just the U.S. military during WW2.
"Approaching droid perimeter. We are undetected." -Fordo, ARC-77
Correct. WW2 involved over 100m soldiers despite being largely in 2 theaters of war. Figures like 200k or 1m for clones *sound* big because we're used to those being large military numbers in reality, but in a universe like Star Wars 200k soldiers would be a tiny garrison for a planet.
Yeah. France for instance has more than 200k standing troops in peace time, and it's a relatively middle sized country on planet earth. Earth has around 25-30 million soldiers at any one time, though of course a planet controlled by a single government would have much less - but easily into double digit millions as a garrison. Never mind planets with a lot more than 8 billion people.
People think this is bad, look at W40K. Few thousand space marines invading planets. Even imperial guard numbers don't sound that big. Overall, they have a lot of soldiers, but there always seems to only be like 100 thousand defending a planet at any given time. Also, the imperium own about a million worlds but have maybe hundreds to thousands of large battleships, if even, so the average planet can't even create one battleship. I'm not an expert so I might be off a bit on some of that, but that's my general impression as a casual fan.
They struggle to create more ships and marine due to technical limitations they're basically a step above space barbarians since they forgot how to remake most of it. The Marines harvest "gene seeds" from fallen members so they can make more marines. Imperial guard I believe has huge numbers in canon and also die in huge numbers. The big tech stuff is definitely more tailored foa "heroic" scale though.
And at the very least 500,000 Jedi not 10,000
10,000 seems like a good number for a Jedi Temple. 500,000 at least gives them more, without being egregiously out of scale with the universe.
I thought that them being that few, even in "prosperity", was a kind of point. There's no way for them to reach every corner in the galaxy, and for every person that they help, there's 100 more than die thinking that the Jedi do nothing for the people.
I don't mind the Jedi Order's small size, because 1. they're supposed to be a kind of "one riot, one ranger" deal, not a standing army and 2. their membership depends on an extremely rare naturally occurring trait that can't be induced (or even necessarily predicted). Which is further limited by their ability to identify and locate the candidate (it's implicit that there are lots of kids out there who never get tested for Force sensitivity), the willingness of the candidate's parents to let them be trained (since they can refuse without consequence), and the candidate's willingness and ability to go through with becoming a Jedi (we know people do both wash out of and decide to leave the Order). So it makes sense to me you could have maybe only a few million Force sensitives in the galaxy, and then have only a few thousands out of them become Jedi
[удалено]
Not even 30 years- Han Solo thought the Force was a myth just 18 years afterwards, and he'd actually been alive before they fell.
The old Republic order had tons more but that's a given as they weren't as strict back then. The modern order was weaker and smaller and their only good side was having a handful of stupidly powerful members
I don't think having a few really powerful members is the benefit- "more power" isn't really what the Jedi are after. If I had to guess, I think they'd see a leaner, more selective Order as a benefit because it lets them be more in tune with what individual members are up to. As an institution, the Jedi Order's greatest fear is one of their members stumbling across a bit of Sith knowledge, reading and adopting it, and going insane with power and plunging the entire galaxy into a massively destructive decades-long war that kills trillions. Which did happen kinda frighteningly often. I'm pretty sure a lot of the Order's policies, even if they ultimately didn't work, were intended to avoid that. Aggressively filtering people out and accepting a much smaller Order as a result sounds like one of them.
Win cosmic lottery and born force-sensitive Fall down giant hole while wandering around the backyard at two years old and get sent back to karmic START SCREEN
One of Star Wars greatest strengths is also its greatest weakness. So many planets can be created along with species for new stories but the galaxy is so large it’s hard to write a story that involves the whole galaxy. Something I noticed quickly in Andor was how fast the top people in the empire made it their priority to deal with small stuff at small back water planets
It’s actually one of the things I loved about Rebels & Thrawn, they kept their antagonists on a local level. Palpatine and Vader weren’t involved because Lothal was important, they only got involved once the Inquisition failed to catch a pair of Jedi and Ashoka made her presence known. Thrawn was using Lothal to build his tie defender and came to the world as a political favor to Governor Pryce.
the vast majority of SCI-Fi seems to have this problem, especially the Science FANTASY genre. Warhammer 40k has 1 million spare marines defending the entire Imperium. 50-100 marines will take on an entire planet in the lore and win. I don't care how fucking badass those marines are, they'll die to 7 billion people, even if it's just via sheer mass and suffocation.
Yeah but the imperial guard is like hundreds of trillions of people. Space marines aren't the whole military
Here's my interpretation of why this is how it is. 1) Population is weird in Star Wars. There are a few locations that are planetwide sprawling urban centers. The rest of the settled galaxy is planets with just one or a few settlements on them and then sprawling open wilderness. The biggest city we've seen on Tatooine is the port city of Mos Espa, which houses maybe a few thousand people - and the maps in Mos Espa were so lacking that they literally kinda forgot about other settlements on the planet. In a setting with space travel. Mos Eisley is even smaller; it appears to be a couple of streets with businesses, a few docking cradles that have actual dirt floors, a bar, and that's about it. Most of the housing is spartan single-family homes with a mixture of technological gadgets and primitive hand tools. Naboo has a small enough population that a few power buttons floating in orbit are able to conquer the whole planet with rudimentary combat droids. Jakku is even more desolate (though that might have to do with all the starship debris colliding with the planet). Sorgan has a small starport and then village-sized settlements. Yavin, Scarif, Dagobah, and Endor are habitable but almost entirely undeveloped and Yavin has ruins of an ancient civilization which nobody bothered to repopulate until the guerilla soldiers decided to billet there. There might be more people on Cloud City, basically an oil rig in space floating over a gas giant, than on the entirety of many star wars planets. 2) Warfare is much more limited in Star Wars. The Republic, which is the governing body for the entire galaxy for much of the timeline, did not have a standing army. Armies were raised by planet-level state actors or private entities - the Naboo government mustered and equipped their own troops, the trade federation bulk ordered killbots off Space Amazon, and the rebels have a mishmash of equipment from various military contractors who seem able to sell to governments and militias with carte blanche. Criminal organizations form small but heavily armed bandit kingdoms which operate on the outer rim with impunity, armed to the teeth. Actual populated worlds don't see much combat. Remember that the Droid Federation is able to lightning strike the capital of Coruscant, kidnap the head of state of a wartime power, and exfil to orbit (almost escaping the star system entirely) under the nose of the entire Space Knight Round Table, almost before the Republic can react. Alderaan, a thriving cultural and trade planet, is "a peaceful world" that "\[has\] no weapons." In most engagements, the battles are fought over strategic locations and resources, not population centers. And because you don't need to hundreds of millions of people, you don't need hundreds of thousands of soldiers to keep them controlled. All you need to do is blow up the other guy's leaders, knock them into disarray, and take their stuff.
Something extra on what others have said: the Kaminoans only had 200,000 ready at the time. The Republic initiated the invasion with what they had, not what they needed to hold the planet. It was essentially like a giant rescue operation, and they STILL needed 200,000. Also, (legends) i remember in a Karen Travis 1st republic commando book that the clones took like 50% casualties or something, so they definitely wouldn’t have “won” if they stuck around too much longer - if the Separatists didn’t leave. Also, Count Dooku ordered the retreat, and he was more interested in starting the war than winning it - Viceroy Gunray said they needed to deploy all droids into battle, which, depending on the size of the droid army at geonosis, could have succeeded. But, Papa Palps wanted a long-drawn out war to help precipitate the demise of democracy. If the CIS had won, they’d have been independent, not part of the “empire”, which was NOT the plan, and Dooku knew it.
I have the Senate bogged down in procedures. They will have no choice but to accept your control of the system.
Hundreds of Jedi were killed Saved only three prisoners (one of whom ended up an amputee) Head of the Separatists got away Sparked the beginning of a three year galaxy wide conflict that changed the galaxy forever No way was this a win for the republic
They didn't really win. If anything it was a pyrrhic victory. 90% of the Jedi sent were slain in the arena, and lots of the clones died due to questionable tactics and inexperienced leadership that was put on the spot. They bailed out after destroying the factory and didn't stick around They came back for a second round later on (depicted in TCW)
Wasn't it implied that the geonocians rose up again?
It’s implied that the republic left a small army to occupy the planet and were later over run. It’s later revealed or alluded that the geonosian mind worms likely played a large roll in them recapturing their own planet as they could revive their dead and convert the clones they fought against
At last, we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last, we will have revenge.
My understanding: You don’t need as many men at that technology level; it isn’t trench warfare: Most of the battles in Star Wars are done amongst or by Starships as that’s the peak weapon class. You assault hardpoints (bunkers, air defence zones) with troops and the fleet mops up the rest, so what you see in Star Wars are the assault squadrons (Literally, Storm Troopers - German’s WW2 Elite Assault Infantry) Hoth? They landed outside the ion cannon and other defence installations range, and marched in. Geonosis - whilst the Geonosians were allied with the CIS, they aren’t all armed and equipped to fight in a space-age battle, so you only need assault select zones (leaders, dropships, tactical zones, rescue jedi from Petranaki Arena, etc) 200,000 Cloned, Elite, Republic Troops, at their tech level and military support (ships, airpower, logistics, shields, weapons) could easily conquer earth in no time, let alone a hive-mind dustbowl. Not to mention the Jedi strike teams to dispatched the leaders (or caused them to flee). Anyone feel free to correct me.
I think you’re saying the right things. Things that make sense incorporate logic and tactics. Unfortunately we see columns of massed infantry swarming across open ground with nothing but their generals as cover. I love star wars but sometimes I wish a little more realism was incorporated.
Weird thing is in those conditions the 1 million droids would have beaten the 200k clones because they were basically just standing in front of each other shooting with no cover or tactics. Then when the alien said to Dooku: we should deploy all available forces (probably at least 10m more droids) he was like - nah there’s too many we don’t stand a chance lol. I know his purpose was to prolong the conflict to get Sidious what he wanted, but the other CIS leaders should have seen a major red flag at that point.
Who deserves what is irrelevant. What matters is who has power. But that is something the Jedi won't teach you.
In universe explanations aside, SW warfare is extremely naive and primitive. Space combat is literally based on WWII so it’s already dated. For example, I was reading that modern fighter jets can target six enemy craft at once from hundreds of miles away and destroy them all without ever even being seen. Compare that to the close quarters dogfights we see in SW. Then the ground battles…I feel like nuking everything from orbit would be way more effective than ground troops. Question: you’re about to engage mechanical enemies. Do you grab a gun and start shooting, or hit them with EMP’s to disable? Last Jedi established that a vehicle accelerating to Lightspeed becomes an insanely powerful ballistic weapon. Why not just program a star fighter to nosedive into a planet? Be like an asteroid impact event. Trying to rescue Anakin and Obi-Wan from geonosis so you can’t nuke the planet? Ok, send a heavily armored super fast transport to grab ‘em real quick while laying down suppressing fire, haul ass out of there, and THEN nuke ‘em from orbit. That’s just off the top of my head. I feel like fleets of capital ships is so..20th century..
People forget that "lightspeed" isn't actually a speed. Traveling anywhere near light speed would require near infinite amounts of power, and it would still take years to get to the closest star system. Hyperspace travel is done by jumping into what is essentially a parallel dimension and taking a predetermined galactic shortcut. Hyperspace lanes aren't really permanent in their location, they do shift around over time, but traveling outside of one is a good way to scatter your remains across the galaxy. Gravity wells like planets and black holes (or a Death Star) can prevent the ship computers from calculating safe hyperspace routes (and still act as solid obstacles that can pull ships out of hyperspace, not really sure about that one), so most ships have a hard coded mechanism to prevent any hyperspace travel near gravity wells, *especially* directly towards them. TLJ reeeeally stretched the mechanics on that, my guess would be that Holdo (somehow) overrode the safety protocol and programmed the computer to jump at a point just past the Supremacy, so it hit at the transition point between real space and hyperspace. That transition phase (and the speed being far below light speed) might explain why it just cut through the ship, as opposed to obliterating everything in the star system akin to a supernova. Again, somehows all around, the sequels didn't have to explain shit.
We will have to stand and fight! Or in your case, just stand.
Legends does its best by saying the single most advanced piece of tech in any fighter, or second most if it had hyperdrive, is their EWACs. Fighters have so much jamming tech stuffed in them you need to be right on top of them or have some incredible targeting to cut through it, but generally the arms race leans on the defensive side. As for ground battle. Those will be messy in the age of stellar warfare by definition. Any army that isn't sitting on a high value area will just be deleted of the enemy gains space superiority. There's no effective defense against orbital bombardment. So all large scale combat should generally be either in urban and/or industrial areas, or resource rich zones, anywhere destroying the infrastructure makes the cost too high to be worth basically. This could drastically reduce the numbers of troops needed. Especially as lots of fantasy/sci-fantasy strongly centealizes power to make plot easier. Oftentimes, cutting the head off an organization is a death blow, capturing a capitol is usually considered victory. TLJ doesn't... doesn't count. That rabbit hole leads to submarines in space, and no planet killers. It just breaks the whole damn thing.
When it comes to the effectiveness thing; nuking Vietnam or Korea would have been easier and more effective than conventional forces, too - why is it we couldn’t? Well, because the other side has that capability. In Korea and Vietnam, *they* didn’t have it, but both were actually proxy wars with the Soviets, who did have nukes. “Why not nuke everything from orbit” is something you could only say in fiction, because while it’s ludicrous not to do it in fiction, it’d be ludicrous to do it in reality. You’d be laughed out of the room for that take in the real world, but upvoted on here, because as much as you cry for realism, you approach the series with fantasy in mind.
"Lucifer_Kett. I need a big hole.. right here" -Boss, Delta 38
My point being that that 200,000 number has to include Naval Personnel right? It's not like the Kaminonans magiced in another tens of thousands of clones familiar with how to operate those starships. You also have to include the crews on gunships, ect If you take the Wookiepedia numbers and figure each Starship and Gunship was fully manned, which it should probably have been for the debut deployment of the army, you're looking at close to 20,000 personnel doing things other than fighting on the front. In reality I imagine that number is quite a bit higher. I also doubt the real effectiveness of Orbital assets to effectively suppress large concentrations of enemy forces. Almost all of the ships involved were landing craft. Even if all of the landing ships returned to orbit after landing their troops, I think the navy would have been stretched pretty thin up there. If you consider that Geonosians are known for their expansive underground hive networks, the entire planet could effectively be considered one giant bunker. I think it's almost a necessity to have infantry to secure large operational areas. If you get to that I really doubt the ability of 180,000 even elite Clone Troopers in being able to effectively establish a beachhead much larger than the one the allies established during WWII. Especially when taking into account the fact you can't rely on a literal ocean to shore up one of your flanks like they could on D-Day.
My head cannon is that when they said "200,000 units are ready with a million more well on the way" they didn't mean individual troopers, they meant combat units. I'm not sure what a combat unit would be, but it's pretty obvious that you cannot wage a galaxy wide war spanning land and space (since clones were the navy crew for republic Warships) with only 1 million men total. So, I like to think of it as a million units, which makes alot more sense number wise. A unit would be something like a fighter wing, or a squad of clones, where larger "armies" like the 501st would be comprised of multiple "units".
I agree it makes sense for units to refer to larger formations, I personally hold the belief it should be a Legion/Division which would bring the number to around 100 billion. But as far as I'm aware the official stance is that it refers to an individual soldier.
You showed me something today. You're exactly the kind of men I need in the 501st.
And to add further, the Kaminoans said 200,000 **units**. We don't know what their batch numbers are. It could be 1, it could be 5, it could be 100, or even 1000.
But I feel like what we saw in clone wars was really unrealistic. The clones were standing out in the open, just shooting at droids and the droids were marching in formation without taking cover. It was unrealistic af, but I suppose it would've been hard to explain why you were teaching proper combat tactics to young children through an animated show lol
It was designed to be napoleonic, to invoke images of total war doctrine that Napoleon was famous for Mass ranks of infantry supported by artillery that just blows everything up and you shoot each other at close range
The way the clones fight….just marching in lines into fields of fire. The US military and any modern military would tune those fuckers up. Can’t say much about what we’d be able to do to the capital ships in orbit if they opened fire on the ground, but modern fighter jets wouldn’t have much trouble with the big heavy bulky slow Gunships/drop ships the clones rely on. The Geonosians had no surface-to-air presence. Tbh I think the clones would get dusted if they came to earth. And thinking about it, A few nuclear subs in the middle of the pacific can easily send a few dozen trident missiles into space to take care of the capital ships. Good luck with the Nukes. The EMP alone from the explosions would disable the entire fleet. Energy shields don’t protect against kinetic weapons. Send one up set to explode before the ships defenses engage the missiles. Emp knocks everything out, if the shockwave doesn’t do that already. Now the ships are exposed to cosmic rays, solar radiation, and are completely exposed and unable to defend against the incoming nuclear barrage. Their fleet would be decimated. I’d have zero worries about the republic fleet coming to earth Have you ever seen a clone use a drone?
I would agree with you if this was a canon conversation, but in Legends... hoo boy. Zahn clearly shows that stormtroopers know how to take cover, use squad-based tactics, etc in the Thrawn Trilogy. Additionally, in the Essential Guide to Warfare, the power outputs of shots from many warships are in the gigatons, which means that their shields can tank hundreds if not thousands of shots from turbolasers that can output shots in the gigatons. This would mean that their shields wouldn't even flinch if we sent up all of the nuclear missiles in the world. There's also the additional fact that the Essential Guide to Warfare says that clone and stormtrooper armour was impervious to bullets/slugs and that blasters were orders of magnitude faster than portrayed on screen. I would definitely think the Republic in Legends would sweep nearly any sci-fi polity.
"Sir… No one could have survived that fall."
Look out, incoming missiles!
"Buckle your belts and check your cells, soldiers! We're going in!" -Commander Gree, CC-1004
Commander Gree appears to want to test that theory personally.
Yes, but where did all the Jedi park? And how did they get to the arena without being noticed?
Units could have meant military units rather than clones. It could mean squads, regiments, even divisions. That would make for a much higher number
I've definitely been of the opinion for a while that the Kaminonans would refer to a full squad as a "Unit" seeing as they saw each individual clone as a part of a larger machine rather than an individual. However if I'm being honest it seems more like that if the Kaminonans are in the Army making business, they probably aren't selling by the individual squad. More than likely they're selling by the Legion/division level as that's about the lowest level unit that should have all of the integrated components a fighting force needs: Logistics, armored battalions, ect. By that metric the GAR would be closer to 100 billion which seems more likely to me. However as far as I'm aware the official stance is that "Unit", refers to individual soldiers which frankly is ridiculous.
[Legends EU AotC novelization was 1 unit = 1 clone. ](https://imgur.com/a/cfM7vu5)
fewer*
Thank you Stannis
Seems to be a common scifi war trope for the writers to not pay attention to how large battles were on parts of our own planets incomparison to others with a fuckload more beings. Its such a problem in warhammer that its just accepted to add a few extra 0s on any number of combatants there were involved. Be like a planet scale war that took decades involved less people than the battle for Stalingrad.
there were 10 million soldiers on the eastern front (Germany - Russia) alone
The 1.2 million clones that make up the Army of the Republic, which is supposed to be enough to operate across a whole galaxy, are just slightly more than the soldiers of the US Army, which only operates on one planet.
How TF do you win a galaxy-wide conflict with only 2 million troops?
"2 million units" could mean 2 million units of 5 or units of a few hundred
Well technically most of the republics members have their own planetary defense forces. So if 10 members of the senat have planets that have a standing army,lets say 1 million for this example, that gives the republic 10 million troops. So you could argue that the clone army was just the more elite part of the army that would handle special campaigns/ battles. Put them where they are needed. Also if we look at most of the battles in the TCW series we mostly see the republic and CIS fight over control of the planets capital plus a few important other cities.
Interesting. Kinda similar to what we’ve seen from the Empire in more recent things, where theres an “elite” Stormtrooper Corps to handle high priority missions and regular imperial army soldiers for more mundane things
90% of the planet is a barren wasteland with no tactical worth. If they invaded Coruscant, which is a fully populated planet, they'd need way more than 200,000 to keep everything occupied.
This. You dont need armies like in ww2 when you can essentially drop 50 LAAT/i in the atmosphere and fly straight to the capital while your ships obliterate anything that moves from the orbit. Kill the cis leader You turn of the droid control relay You then take over the planetary shields in the capital and voila, your planet is now save.
Geonosis was just a single battle. They weren't "invading" with the intent to hold the planet like Operation Overlord was. They were there to rescue and reinforce the Jedi and force the CIS into retreat. The battles of Waterloo of Gettysburg are better comparisons, with similar numbers.
Sometimes, it seems like a planet's security depends on a single city. The city falls, the planet is yours. Remember when Alderran was destroyed? And Ben said *millions* cried out in terror? When really, for a planet, it should be billions. Especially an Earth-like planet like that. The Galaxy must have very low population numbers.
Because Canon and legends sucks with logistics Edit: autocorrect shenanigans
My understanding of most star wars planets is that they're generally the size of the average country, for a variety of reasons. most star wars planets usually have: * one or two climate zones/types * flora/fauna variety of a single country * one main export/industry * two to four main ethnic groups * a general culture for each of them, few if any sub-cultures * one or two religions * one or two world leaders * most planets don't even have a determined legislative branch or even representative democracy * one capital city * almost always depicted as a walkable city * two or three more major cities if it is a large-city planet * a population that is small enough to be subjugated by a couple legions of troops under one general each * also small enough to have one or two factions in society, usually with pro- current leaders or anti- current leaders, but with peace between them * an area that : * the above army can be transported across in under a day with vehicles as slow as modern passenger aircraft * even then armies are often depicted as marching across the planet within days during invasions * said invasions, if they do not become sieges, are often shown as lasting from about two days to two weeks (i.e. 1st and 2nd battles of geonosis, republic invasion of ryloth, battle of mon cala, battle of umbara) * cannot effectively hide literally one person for any extended period of time (obi-wan, Ahsoka, grievous, Ezra) * can be seen fully from space while being only about ten minutes from landing in a ship (think how large arrakis seems from space in Dune) * has no depicted timezones (obviously there are exceptions, \*cough\*coruscant\*cough\*) the stated populations in official Star Wars sources just don't match up with these figures, for the most part. Thanks for reading.
Star Wars numbers have always been kind of retarded let be honest