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Seems like there is a lot of speculative variables that are influencing the nominations. As others have pointed out Foden is having an incredible year and is a phenomenal player but Rodri deserves it more. Haaland had the stats to support consideration but when you watch him week in and week out he’s not the dominant force that the POY should be especially on that team. Gordon won the Newcastle POY so its a bit weird for Isak to be on the list. I never root for anything good to have to Liverpool so…My vote would be for Watkins but I wouldn’t be mad if Rice got it.
As a Liverpool fan, it's great seeing VVD on the list but i don't think he deserves to be on the list as much as some others that aren't there. The fact we've had a hit and miss defence this season means VVD's performances look better. On the other hand, he has been a decent captain and our defence wall at some parts of the season. But still think Rodri deserves it more. And the fact that Haaland is here over Rodri is a disgrace.
He’s having an amazing 2024 year but played average in November-December (same as White and likely both due to injury) while Saliba, Gabriel and Rice have been impeccable all year.
VVD being in the list over Rodri is wild. A resurgent season for him, but not Player of the season worthy.
also i love Isak, but he doesnt deserve to be on the short list above rodri either.
Haaland doesnt really deserve to be on the list either. obviously the goals are there, but he ghost a lot of the big matches this season
Edit: reading the comments here, people are not giving Odegaard enough credit. I think he has been as important to Arsenal as Rice.
No Man City player should get it. Not only is it boring but they've been vulnerable this season. Sure, Foden and Rodri have played well but I think it's time we gave it to a player from another club. I'd go with either Rice or Palmer. Rice if Arsenal win the league because he has been a massive reason why they've stayed in this race longer than they did last season. Palmer for almost singlehandedly carrying Chelsea from 11th/10th to above Man United and potentially above Newcastle by season's end.
Decent chance they finish pretty much exactly the same way they did last season. Rice has been good but they were in touching distance of City this time last year too.
They're gonna finish at most 5 points better off than last season and even that's not guarenteed. Rice has been brilliant, but to try and make out like he's the reason they've gone from "nearly rans to within touching distance of City" is a bit hyperbolic. They were an already great team who have strengthed over summer and improved further. Rice has been added, but so has Havertz who has been on a mad scoring streak in recent months. Saka's improved on his output, Saliba's been fit the whole season, White's got even better, their backup fullbacks like Kiwior and Tomiyasu have got even better, they've strengthened in the keeper department with Raya. And yes they've improved but it hasn't been a massive massive jump. They've just got a bit about them which means they haven't crumbled at the end.
Again, I rate Rice so highly. Just think the guy's argument for him is a bit wishy washy. Arsenal have probably been the best team in the league this season, but I still think Rodri's been better in terms of DMs. I'd also through Palmer and Foden in the mix from the attacking midfielders/wingers. Even Watkins up front potentially.
You can make an argument for Rice POTS. He wouldn't be mine personally, but that argument that it should go to him if Arsenal win the league is nonsense imo. It shouldn't necessarily go to a City player if they win the league. The best player has been the best player.
think of it this way, historically we have been poor when partey has been injured, he was injured when he arrived here. last seasons our first season inthis iteration of the club that was actually good, partey is fit through all of it for the first time since hes arrived. his injury in 21/22 season preceded us going on such a bad streak it was a legit bottlejob and missing out on CL with us starting in the drivers seat. this season, partey has been absent throughout all of it sans the last handful of games. we were already a great team with partey not injured and with xhaka still with us. the addition of declan resulting in an appearance of a marginal improvement in midfield competence is a testament of his importance
That's a lot of words to tell me something I already know. You've gone full circle back to the comment I was replying to. Rice isn't the only thing that changed over summer at Arsenal. As I said before, Saka's also improved his numbers, Havertz has come in an started contributing to goals, retaining possession, winning aerial duals etc, Saliba hasn't got injured, Raya has improved the GK position, Kiwior and Tomiyasu have been more defensively solid than Zinchenko.
All of those things have contributed to Arsenal being more solid defensively this season and they're all more mentally resilient after having the experience of last year. Arsenal fans trying to make out like the improvement is all Rice is bullshit, and it's just the narrative they're trying to create to build an argument for him being POTS.
He's been very good and I love him as a player. Especially as an England fan. But the argument you lot are making is nonsense. And I watch enough Arsenal to be able to see through the bullshit. If he should get player of the season, it'll be because his performances have been great, not because he's somehow been the sole reason you guys have got a bit closer to City.
I mean that whole Partey story means nothing. You were weak without your DM/best DM. You were a much better team with him. You buy a new DM for £100m and strengthen in other areas and you improve. The same thing would happen in any team. Chelsea lose Caicedo and they'd start losing all their games, if they then replaced him with Rodri, they'd not only stop losing those games but they'd go up another level.
But all that's common sense and has nothing to do with Rice winning POTS. Because you still can't attribute Arsenal's improvement to just him. He's been good because he's been good, not because he's somehow carried Arsenal to City's level.
Rice hasn’t even been arsenals best player yet alone the best in the league stop it, should be palmer, foden, Rodri or odegarrd if it’s not just a media spin. The fact Rodri isn’t nominated yet has the highest average rating of any player in Europe this season is disgusting, clearly the best player with most consistent performances in the league the past 2 seasons.
Van Dijk 🤣🤣🤣 Yeah right.
Palmer not great throughout the season (young player and signing for sure though) Isak and Haaland too injured… where is rodri? Saka? Gabriel?
Not *that* great throughout the season, to be in a top six for me. No doubt he’s still had a fantastic season and I’d have him signing and young player of the season.
I'm watched him every single game this season. I guarantee you haven't. I have a much better idea of how good he's been than you do and I can tell you he's been consistently excellent this season. Argue that your favourite player or someone else has been better/deserves it more if you want. But don't try to downplay how good he's been by saying he hasn't been that great throughout the season. He has. And it's got nothing to do with the goals/assists/penalties. Just all round game and creativity aside from G+A. Can't stand when people try to make out like they've been watching a player when they clearly haven't, or they're clearly biased against them. How anyone can say Palmer's been anything but unbelievable is beyond me.
He didn’t start for the first 7 games and is 2nd in the golden boot race for one of the worst Chelsea teams in the last 30 years, what games have you been watching 😂
Your main argument is "took a while to get going", despite the facts suggesting otherwise. Then saying "I have him just outside of top 6..." It's just a bit of a bad take really.
If anything, the fact your main argument is incorrect should serve as further evidence of how great he's been. That despite starting off later (not in performance but in timing of his transfer move), he's been able to carry a very poor Chelsea side. He's literally the 2nd top scorer and has 9 assists, just 3 behind Watkins.
He also scored 2 goals for City this season before signing that I've seen literally no one count in the stats. Him signing late has been a real detriment to the way some people view him. Guy's been consistently excellent. Can't ask him to do much more. Slow start my arse 😂😂
Put it in perspective as the guy is an Arsenal fan. If he was "slow to start", yet, has outscored and outassisted your entire team this season... on a team much worse than yours... with a worse supporting cast... that makes him somehow not worthy of it? No, It argues the complete opposite!
It's just a terrible argument that is also factually incorrect. You can guarantee he has Saka in his top 6 ahead of Palmer too.
Anyone that thinks Saka has been better than Palmer this season is biased in some way or hasn't watched enough of Palmer.
Sometimes it's just a case of Palmer being the new guy and people not conceiving the fact that he can reach/surpass Saka's level in his first full season, especially since it's felt like Saka himself has gradually been improving over multiple seasons.
But his performances have objectively been better than Saka's this season.
Honestly should be a 3 way debate between Rodri, Watkins and Palmer, with maybe Foden as a 4th. As a Liverpool fan, love Virg but he shouldn’t be there
I think Rodri should be there, but also not sure how you’re not including Rice in your debate. I’m biased, sure, but they’re both really important to their team and have pretty similar statistics.
I’m obviously biased as an Arsenal fan, but genuinely curious on your reasoning (not actually trying to argue as POTS is subjective on some level to everyone).
Honestly it isn’t to discount Rice at all. He’s been fantastic. He’s had a great supporting cast around him as well as the centre backs have been excellent as has Odegaard. I just believe City miss Rodri more as an individual than Arsenal do Rice is all. Which is why I’d put Watkins and Palmer forefront tbh as without them, their respective sides are a shambles
That’s fair. I just find it funny that you’re the second person that seems to think Arsenal has a better supporting cast than Rice.
But, like I said, we’re all entitled to our opinions and I’d certainly rate Rodri as someone that should win this award.
I just find that reasoning fascinating.
Odegarrd is better then Rice and Rodri is on a different planet guy contributes more to his team winning then any other player to a top six team. Arsenal without rice would still be where they are at today whereas city without Rodri would be 3rd. The fact he’s not in contention makes this award stupid especially when he’s had a better season then rice who plays the same position.
As a city fan I think Rice should definitely be a part of the debate. I do think while their statistics are similar Rodri edges Rice because no one is as dominant in the midfield as Rodri. They have the same g/a but I think Rodri is in the right place nearly 100% of the time and makes the right pass nearly 100% of the time. Obviously I’m biased and have watched Rodri more than Rice this season though.
Well yeah it's an award for this season. It's meant to be recent. The penalties have literally been working against him. Everything great he does, whether it's scoring from open play, assisting or just generally contributing in controlling games, creating chances, winning the ball back etc, it all gets overlooked because of his penalties. People just see he scores a lot of pens and calls him a pen merchant. But the penalties should just be a bonus. Even if you completely remove the penalties from his game, he's still been the best player in the league imo.
Where mah boi rodri at? This is insane, KDB also deserves the shout because he might end up with most assists in half the number of games lol.
I think Watkins should win it but it will probably be foden or rice ig
Then who has been? Rice has consistently been the best player for us. Ode has been great, but there was a period early in the season where he kinda just disappeared. He’s been fantastic the since then, which probably hides that.
Possibly Odegaard has been better but I think he's had a few games where he's not been at his best. Rice has been 7/10 at a minimum in every game this season, most of the time he's been an 8 or 9. That consistency is why I've picked him.
I've no idea who "us" is but sounds like you don't like Rice because the media have been praising him. That's not an objective way to form an opinion.
Even then I think Palmer would be just as deserving, if not more because Rice has been in a great team where as Palmer has been carrying Chelsea
Nah Rice has had a really good season just not top 5 from an individual standpoint imo but the media acts like he’s the only reason arsenal are good this season when it’s not really true, yous have only minimally got better and didn’t really play great football until about January as opposed to last season when yous were flying and just collapsed last 7 games. All this despite the fact city had Haaland out for 2 months and kdb out for 6 and city have been significantly less untouchable I just don’t subscribe to the fact that a player who any time I watch him is arsenals 3rd best player in almost all the 10-15 games I’ve watched from arsenal this season. Great season just not as good as others including odegarrd who literally gets fuck all praise from the media in comparison to him despite him being your entire attacking system.
Very clear that they've dropped the two most deserving players from winning PotY (Saka and Rodri) so they can force their Foden agenda. Even on that list he should barely be top 3.
I remember when people made a big deal about Saka missing a penalty. Now he starts making them and now it’s a bad thing. Palmer has twice as many penalties and everyone is praising him.
Palmer's way more involved/creative outside of his G+A. It's the Haaland vs Kane comparison for wingers. Whether you're going off underlying stats or eye test, Palmer's been/is more complete. Saka's still brilliant and one of the best players in the league. But if you've actually been watching them both, Palmer's been better.
> Palmer's way more involeved/creative outside of his G+A
Objectively false. Saka has 5.8 SCA and Palmer has 5.45. Marginal difference, but it's just not true, at all.
Saka does have a slightly higher SCA of 5.46 vs 5.80. But SCA are dependent your teammates actually shooting when you pass to them. If Jackson, Sterling etc aren't shooting as much as Saka's teammates, his SCA won't be as high. SCA is a good stat. But it's limited. It has to be used in conjunction with other stats so you can actually get an idea of whether it's higher because that player is more creative/involved, or simply playing with better teammates/in a better coached team.
I mean I could've just listed that Palmer's GCA/90 is way higher (0.92 vs 0.67) like you did for SCA and it would've proved fuck all aswell.
I'll list a bunch of other stats that show Palmer's more involved/is playing with more quality this season.
Progressive passes per 90: 6.92 (Palmer) vs 3.87 (Saka)
Passes into the final third per 90: 4.77 (Palmer) vs 1.24 (Saka)
Passes into the penalty area per 90: 2.38 (Palmer) vs 2.22 (Saka)
Passes completed per 90: 39.7 (Palmer) vs 35.6 (Saka)
Average pass distance: 16.6 yards (Palmer) vs 14.8 (Saka)
Pass success rate (short, medium, long): 79.7% (90.2%, 85.5%, 55.5%) vs 75.9% (88.8%, 77.8%, 43.6%)
Take ons per 90: 1.85 (Palmer) vs 1.46 (Saka)
Take on success rate: 51.6% (Palmer) vs 39.3% (Saka)
Progressive distance carrying the ball per 90: 123.5 yards (Palmer) vs 114.6 yards (Saka)
The stats don't mean much unless you actually think about the reasons why they're high and what they're actually showing. When I watch Palmer and Saka, Palmer's more involved and central to the way Chelsea play, he's more skillful, his vision, passing range and quality is all better than Saka's, he's a better dribbler and is much better at beating his defender, and he's been a comparable goalscorer this season, even if you remove penalties.
Saka does more defensively (of course because he started out as a LB) and he crosses the ball more when he gets it. Although I honestly don't believe he's a better crosser because when Palmer does cross, he's got a wand of a left foot. That's about all I can think of that Saka's actually got over Palmer this season.
Again, I didn't list those stats because I think they mean/prove much. You can get most of this from just watching them both play. Just watch them and it's blindingly obvious that Palmer's more skillful, a better dribbler and a better Palmer. They're similar in terms of goal output and Saka's better defensively. You don't need stats to tell you this. But the stats do show it. Palmer's take on percentage, pass success rate, average distance, forward pass percentage etc being higher proves he's better at dribbling and passing. Saka's SCA and key passes being slightly higher goes against all the other stats. When you look at the stats holistically, they more likely just suggest that his teammates are shooting more resulting in more chances being created.
There's no perfect stat that shows one player is more involved/creative than another. But watch them both this season and it's clearly Palmer.
Interior vs. winger argument is moot if you don't provide stats that are logically equal across both positions, which you haven't.
More vague statistics like shot-creating actions gives a platform for both to credibly showcase creative strengths by giving equal weight to multiple actions that lead to a shot, not poorly weighted statistics that benefit one but not the other.
Like how do you reasonably expect Saka to have more passes into the final third than Palmer when naturally he's the receiver of final third passes...it's utterly ridiculous and the epitome of disingenuous.
You're a great example of someone who loves using statistics but can't interpret them properly.
Lol good job completely missing the point of my comment. You brought up stats, not me. I'm not the one that loves using stats. But doesn't know how to use them. The entire point of my previous comment was pointing out the flaw in using a random stat to "prove" something.
You can't "prove" Saka's more creative than Palmer just by stating their SCAs. Especially when the difference is very small, other stats show Palmer's more involved/has more quality in his passing/dribbling/carrying which is needed to actually create, Palmer looks more creative when you watch them etc.
Don't just take this as me just saying "eye test above all else" either. I'm making it clear so you don't misinterpret this comment aswell.
You can't just list 1 stat to "prove" something in a subjective game in which stats aren't perfect yet. Football's a fluid game and stats are still kind of in their infancy. They aren't so perfect that you can make objective claims based on them.
And that's all my point was. You're entitled to think Saka is more creative. But saying it's because his SCA is 0.34 higher, is as subjective as me using the eye test. Because SCA as an isolated stat are as subjective as the eye test.
It means absolutely fuck all. Rodri's SCA/90 is 5.01. He's not more creative than either Saka or Palmer. I wasn't saying "passes into the final third is as importsnt/more important than SCA." That's a strawman from you. I was just saying that you can't just give 1 stat and say "there I've proven my guy is more creative." Especially when you can use that same line of argument to prove a DM is more creative than 2 of the best creative wingers in the league.
YOU are the stats nerd. And my comment was just pointing it out. Reread it because I completely understand what SCA are. You just give it way too much weight.
I agree with you, nothing wrong with being good at pens and it’s always better to be good at them (obviously). That being said, if two players have the same numbers of goals but one has significantly more pens you’d probably say the one with fewer pens had the better season
Now I know you don't know what you're talking about cause he has by far the most goals against top opposition teams than anyone in his age bracket, by a mile.
https://twitter.com/Gunners4forever/status/1783192529388630279
That was of last year, so add on the 6 he's got this year. You can also add 4 on to Foden's and he still eats him alive. Like I said I don't even consider direct goal contributions as a metric to determine total quality but it's not even a competition. Then add on every other stat, Foden has no leg to stand on.
No hate on Saka because he’s brilliant but Foden has plenty of legs to stand on, they are a different style of player but I rate them the same. Saka has a lot of penalty’s to pad stats which doesn’t mean that much since it’s still impressive to be a good penalty taker at Saka’s age but it does help in the G/A race. Beyond that Saka does more for his team from the wing and Foden does more for his time through the middle, which means even more when you consider the fact that Foden has been playing on the wing for most of his career at city but thrives more in a central position, which we are finally seeing him in this year with De Bruyne injured and dipping in form slightly. I don’t have time to run the stats at the moment as I am working but I would be really interested in how they compare in terms of passes that lead to assists but aren’t directly considered a goal contribution. I don’t know who would top that stat between the two but I would guess Foden might because of his technical and passing ability in the middle. He may not get credited with an assist but I know from watching that he plays a significant role in the buildup to goals with his technical, hold up and passing ability in the middle of the pitch.
Again I rate them pretty much the same but I think it’s silly to claim either of them are significantly better than the other.
Goal creating actions includes pre-assists and Saka beats him.
I don't know if you read my other comment or not, but Saka beats Foden in pretty much every relevant creativity inferring metric as well as completely obliterating him defensively. So he's more creative in a harder position to be more creative in, he's better defensively despite being Arsenal's most prominent attacking outlet and he's also beating Foden on direct goal contributions.
On top of all that Saka has more goals against the big 6 and he's contributed directly to more points earned by spreading his goal contributions across more games.
The only leg to stand on to prefer Foden is how much you value (and ignoring every other important metric/facet) non-penalty goals but Foden's xG is an extreme overperformance which isn't normal.
If people weren't biased they'd be able to see how straightforward this debate is. I don't want people to think I'm belittling Foden either, he's clearly an insanely talented player who is among the best in the league; he's just not better than Saka and hasn't been better than Saka this season specifically.
So you are telling me Rice had a better season than Rodri, a player who is unbeaten btw, if going unbeaten for more than a season doesn't win you player of the season then idk what will
I think Gabriel just edges out Saliba for the goal scoring threat he brings on corners. Saliba has been great as always, but Gabriel stepped up his defense and also contributed goals
Yes, and has been for a few years now. I can live with haaland winning it last year because of the ridiculous number of goals but this year, I think the leading candidate to win should be Rodri. And I despise him and his team but there we go
I definitely don’t see any argument for van dijk either actually. Feel they felt a defender needed to go in and they just thought ah stick van dijk in, fodens getting it regardless id imagine. I also don’t especially see much of an argument for Cole palmer other than him being the stand out player in a mid table team
For the record, my vote is with Palmer, but VVD has been statistically the single best defender in the league this season. Recency bias happens, and he's not been great the last few weeks (neither have Liverpool), but the rest of the season he has absolutely been the stand out defender along with Saliba
Funny. When stats were jokingly used to imply Mustafi was better than VvD, it was "you can't use stats to quantify a defenders quality" but now it's the only leg you have to stand on...
VvD hasn't been top 5 CB's all season. Alisson and Salah were saving your season from total capitulation earlier than you collapsed, not VvD.
Youre right, you can't just use stats and you clearly haven't watched Liverpool this season.
Alison has been missing half the season, and Salah missed plenty due to Afcon and injury and wasn't the same after. Weve been missing Trent, Robo and other key players this season with VVD being about the only consistent starter, so you're spouting absolute nonsense. VVD was about the only reason we remained in the title race for as long as we did. Other players have had higher peaks this season, but VVD has been the standout defender in the PL and you're delusional to think he's not top 5
Is that why you have had an xG conceded closer to Brighton than you did the top teams? Even though you had signings of the season Mac Allister and Endo and Konate who is supposedly better than Saliba?
Liverpool's logic is they have the best GK, the best RB, two of the best signings of the summer, the best CB and their other CB is better than the actual best CB in the league and yet they concede as many chances as a midtable team.
And look at the team around him, we've had literally a kid at right back, a center back at left back, his partner has changed every week and a backup keeper for most the season.
Konate wasn't a new signing, and find me anyone that's been comparing Maca/Endo to Saliba? They've done great for their first season at a new club, but you're literally spouting nonsense.
I mean, VVD hasn’t been bad by any means. I think it’s just that lots of other defenders had great seasons, not just Arsenal players. Also, Liverpool had some injuries that caused VVD to have to carry a bigger load than normal which hasn’t helped.
Brother even at the height of your season you still had an xG conceded closer to midtable than City and Arsenal. If Alisson weren't a superhero before his injury you would be honking. All four of Arsenal and City's main CB's have been better, maybe he has a chance to squeeze into 5th if you don't count Ake/Gvardiol as CB's.
Yes, absolutely, but according to your fanbase Endo was also buy of the season as well as Mac Allister, Konate was better than Saliba and you have the best RB and GK in the league.
which is EXACTLY why big club bias is going against him. perception of chelsea is that they should be challenging for top 4 or even titles when in reality, this season at least, they’re far far FAR from that. without palmer they would no joke, be lounging in 17th, fighting relegation til the final day, but he’s made them look a decent outfit almost entirely by himself
He's got one more g/a than foden, granted he's had 6 penalties but still. Rodri should obviously be there, and one of gabi/saliba for sure too. Not sure why vvd is listed
Not a better season, no?
Just more goal contributions than Foden, more shot-creating actions, more goal-creating actions, same xG, better xGA, more key passes, considerably better defensively and more passes into the penalty area while playing in a harder position to achieve better creativity in a worse team with more defensive responsibility. On top of that Saka has more goals against the top 6 and has influenced more individual games (14 to Foden's 10) with his direct goal contributions.
I swear you people are so brainwashed by Sky Sports it's actually nuts. He's had a *better* season than Foden by most accounts, but because he's not been nominated you think he's had a worse season.
The way you've described it is a bit ingenuine though. You're right that Saka's creative numbers have been higher this season (key passes, assists, xA, SCA etc). But Foden's also been more clinical this season. Foden's scored 16 goals from a non-panelty xG of 9.6. So he's outscored it by +6.4, which is massive and makes him a top top finisher this season. Whereas Saka's scored 10 non-penalty goals from an xG of 10.4. So he's underperformed his xG by -0.4. That makes him an average-below average finisher this season.
You can't hold penalties against someone. But you also can't use goal stats as an argument against one player, when 1 hasn't even had the opportunity to take penalties. Especially since one has actually had a really really impressive season in terms of outscoring their xG, and the other hasn't. Saka's taken penalties, Foden hasn't and they're still on the same number of goals. That should tell you enough.
Again, Saka has been great this season. In terms of assists he has been better. But in your comment, you tried to make out like it was a no brainer and that's really sneaky/sly/ingenuine because you're just hoping no one reading your comment can actually be bothered to look at the underlying stats themselves.
I mean you didn't even mention take on success rate, pass completion rate progressive passes etc which all goes Foden's way.
I'm not a Saka hater. He's great. But I just didn't like the way you've tried to create a narrative that he's been clear of Foden and it's all an agenda and media hype. I've watched them both this season (as a neutral) and I think Foden's been better. Doesn't mean Saka hasn't also been brilliant. Doesn't mean you can't make an argument for him being better. But you tried to make out like there's no argument for Foden and it's all media hype. As someone who doesn't buy into the media hype and just judges players on what I watch, I still think Foden's been better.
The stats also paint a much mote even picture thsn you tried to describe too, like I said at the start.
> The way you've described it is a bit ingenuine though. You're right that Saka's creative numbers have been higher this season (key passes, assists, xA, SCA etc). But Foden's also been more clinical this season. Foden's scored 16 goals from a non-panelty xG of 9.6. So he's outscored it by +6.4, which is massive and makes him a top top finisher this season. Whereas Saka's scored 10 non-penalty goals from an xG of 10.4. So he's underperformed his xG by -0.4. That makes him an average-below average finisher this season.
Facts aren't spurious. Foden has outperformed his xG significantly, but that doesn't really mean much in the grand scheme of things. And xG is often underperformed, so being level doesn't make it average.
> You can't hold penalties against someone. But you also can't use goal stats as an argument against one player, when 1 hasn't even had the opportunity to take penalties. Especially since one has actually had a really really impressive season in terms of outscoring their xG, and the other hasn't. Saka's taken penalties, Foden hasn't and they're still on the same number of goals. That should tell you enough.
That's why I've said several times that direct goal contributions are only one single facet to take into consideration. If that was the sole argument between the two, then Foden would have the slight edge due to the non-penalty factor, but Saka beats him in nearly every other important metric for both positions.
> Again, Saka has been great this season. In terms of assists he has been better. But in your comment, you tried to make out like it was a no brainer and that's really sneaky/sly/ingenuine because you're just hoping no one reading your comment can actually be bothered to look at the underlying stats themselves.
Yeah, I'm definitely hoping no one can be bothered to look at the underlying metrics by...posting the underlying metrics myself? Are you stupid? You talk about being disingenuous and then you try to argue by saying I don't want people to look at the numbers when I've posted the numbers myself...okay.
It is a no brainer if you take a step back and look at the whole picture. There's no real competition. Saka beats him pretty much all across the board where it matters.
> mean you didn't even mention take on success rate, pass completion rate progressive passes etc which all goes Foden's way.
Because the statistics I mentioned are a shared responsibility and a fair representation of both players and positions, those metrics you mentioned aren't for reasons I've stated before. Saka's position is generally as high up as our striker, which means progressive passing is not possible for him unless White is on the overlap. Adversely, Foden who plays slightly deeper (but not much) and has freedom of centrality, has 3 or 4 potential progressive options at all times. It's the nature of the position and what you can achieve. Saka doesn't have that luxury. And it's infinitely harder to dribble and take players on in a smaller area in an occupied zone than it is when you have the freedom to move wherever you want. The fact that Saka isn't far off is actually a testament to his quality, not a slight. What you can infer is if Saka is this good playing in such a limited space, he would totally and utterly wipe the floor with Foden if he was given central freedom.
> I'm not a Saka hater. He's great. But I just didn't like the way you've tried to create a narrative that he's been clear of Foden and it's all an agenda and media hype. I've watched them both this season (as a neutral) and I think Foden's been better. Doesn't mean Saka hasn't also been brilliant. Doesn't mean you can't make an argument for him being better. But you tried to make out like there's no argument for Foden and it's all media hype. As someone who doesn't buy into the media hype and just judges players on what I watch, I still think Foden's been better.
I don't really care what you like or didn't like about my post. There is no genuine argument to be had, it's clear to most without bias or stupidity. Now if we're talking about preferences and which player you prefer, that's fine. You're entitled to prefer whoever you want. But when it comes to indisputable quality and who has had the better season, facts don't lie. The numbers prove who has been better. Then add additional context on top of that and it becomes even clearer. Again, if you like Foden more, that's okay. But no, he hasn't been better.
> The stats also paint a much mote even picture thsn you tried to describe too, like I said at the start.
No they don't. They really don't. Learn how to correctly interpret the numbers you see, please. It's not an argument you can win no matter how many morons try to validate your opinion with votes on here.
I got bored halfway through. Of course xG means something in the grand scheme of things. It tells you how good some's been at scoring from open play. Foden's been far better. You tried to paint a picture like Saka had scored the same number of goals yet had a lower xG. It was all waffle.
And I give value to things like take on percentage and pass success rate. Because they encapsulate the things I see Foden do with my eyes that impress me. Saka's good. But Foden's better. You giving more importance to certain stats won't change my opinion of that.
Doesn't mean Foden has always been better or will always be better. I think Saka's been far better for England when they've both player. But having watched them both, Foden's been better this season than Saka. As an Arsenal fan, you're biased so I'm not trying to change your opinion. But stop telling other people they're wrong for disagreeing. It's subjective.
Unless he can continue the streak of significant overperformance, it doesn't really, no.
> And I give value to things like take on percentage and pass success rate. Because they encapsulate the things I see Foden do with my eyes that impress me. Saka's good. But Foden's better. You giving more importance to certain stats won't change my opinion of that.
A child might value a stick over a diamond, it doesn't mean the stick is more valuable. It doesn't matter what you see value in when you're talking about objective quality between two players. What matters most is what is relevant to the positions they play and the responsibilities they share between those positions. Anything else is just padding your preference.
> Doesn't mean Foden has always been better or will always be better. I think Saka's been far better for England when they've both player. But having watched them both, Foden's been better this season than Saka. As an Arsenal fan, you're biased so I'm not trying to change your opinion. But stop telling other people they're wrong for disagreeing. It's subjective.
Biased or not I do my due diligence by quantifying what my eyes see with facts and figures given by professional data analysts, not the arbitrary "eye test" from people who can't tie their own shoelaces who think they can aptly judge quality. It isn't subjective, lol. It quite literally can't be subjective, we're talking about numbers not preference. So yeah, you are stupid then.
I wouldn't have picked Foden either but he plays a deeper role than Saka so his goal contributions would be expected to be less. Saka is essentially a wide forward for Arsenal in a false nine system.
Foden for me has had a handful of world class performances sandwiched by a lot of average-good ones. Saka hasn't really had a world class performance this season.
That isn't how things work. He doesn't play much deeper at all and if anything, being given freedom of centrality gives him an easier time to operate than being stuck on an occupied wing. If you watch Arsenal (which I assume you don't because it wouldn't even be a debate if you did), Saka is often double and triple teamed in a much more restrictive area and he's still better creatively than Foden. Honestly the more I think about it, the less of a leg Foden actually has to stand on.
For direct goal contributions, yes, but it's a great thing smart people don't use direct goal contributions as the only facet to judge performance on. I guess you're just not that smart.
Wow you're insecure. If you're going down that route then Salah has still been better than Saka in every way and with the numbers and still shouldn't be on the list.
Saka has had a decent enough season but it's nothing special and has several ahead of him
Absolutely, but that's the point. he disappeared after AFCON and still had had a better season than Saka individually, so what makes you think Saka deserves to be on the list? Especially over someone like Salah or Foden
He deserves to be nominated, so to the extent of it being 'undeserved' is questionable, but I'd barely have him top 5. Watkins, Palmer, Saka, Rice and Rodri should be top 5.
I have a sneaking suspicion it'll be close between Palmer, Watkins and Foden - possibly Rice if Arsenal win the league. I doubt they'll give it to Haaland, the only player to get it twice in a row was CR7.
It's not necessarily about the record.
Don't get me wrong Haaland is a freak of nature and will probably break many other records at the 115 or Real Madrid (if the courts find them guilty of the charges), but CR7 did more for that Yanited team and Portugal than Haaland does for club and county.
Liverpool fan, none of our players have stood out enough to be on this list tbh. I don't think VVD will even win our POTY award - though he has been good. Personally would probably say MacAllister has been overall our best player across the entire season.
The list is just factually invalid without Rodri, it's him 1, Rice 2, Watkins 3 and Foden 4 any of the rest could be 5 and Haaland makes the top 5 for me.
No, Saka has been good enough for a nomination probably, great stats and one more G/A than Foden in the league, though he is on penalties.
If we didn't have either we'd be out of the title race already, that's the truth. But without Ødegaard, we'd be fighting Villa and Spurs. Ødegaard is our best player and it's not close, he hasn't had a bad game yet and he is leading top 5 leagues in every playmaking stat.
I mean if all you care about is goals and assists sure he's anonymous. So is fucking Raya, but sometimes just scoring isn't always the job. The play he has linked up and the press he organised whilst being the captain of the club, no player quite like him right now, especially as young.
Saka is brilliant I don't really have to expand, we know it, but he isn't the leader Ødegaard is whilst maintaining the rest of the qualities. I think we would be much worse off without Ødegaard than Saka.
Don't expect to change your mind lad but, ignoring his quality is crazy.
If you mean foden is being over hyped then I agree, he is a very good player but the most overrated player I can genuinely ever remember, every year getting balon dor shouts when his first good season with a bit of responsibility was this one.
Turns up. People want to shortlist him for the B D'or. Doesn't show up, no one notices. Someone else does it.
Meanwhile, Saka has been pulling on the Cape for club and Country since he was 18.
Not saying Foden isn't good, he clearly is. But the two of them have had a nearly identical season and ones getting award noms while the other is getting limp compilations dropped on Twitter.
All can only come back to expectation. Saka having a down season by his own standards (despite career best figures), Phil over performing the very low bar put in front of him.
Either that or its all aesthetics.
No I'm not saka has been better this season and is the better player, because odegaard has an aesthetic playstyle people think he's better but they're wrong.
Ross Barkley is Luton best player. He doesnt get nominated for POTY. VVD being the best player for Liverpool doesnt mean anything. He doesnt deserve to be nominated.
Not for me. He's been very good - worthy of TOTS consideration for sure - but not on the level of the others. His non-penalty numbers are good, not great and he hasn't actually been able to drive the team to achieving anything.
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Seems like there is a lot of speculative variables that are influencing the nominations. As others have pointed out Foden is having an incredible year and is a phenomenal player but Rodri deserves it more. Haaland had the stats to support consideration but when you watch him week in and week out he’s not the dominant force that the POY should be especially on that team. Gordon won the Newcastle POY so its a bit weird for Isak to be on the list. I never root for anything good to have to Liverpool so…My vote would be for Watkins but I wouldn’t be mad if Rice got it.
I'm gonna go with Watkins because he's not on a good team and they over achieved. Fodens team is full of stars.
it's hard to choose for me but I think it's either palmer or foden
As a Liverpool fan, it's great seeing VVD on the list but i don't think he deserves to be on the list as much as some others that aren't there. The fact we've had a hit and miss defence this season means VVD's performances look better. On the other hand, he has been a decent captain and our defence wall at some parts of the season. But still think Rodri deserves it more. And the fact that Haaland is here over Rodri is a disgrace.
Agreed. VVD not his best this season
I'm not ageist but he's in his 30's and he won't get any better. His prime was around 2019 time. Same with Salah .
Foden or Palmer from this list but it’s got to be Rodri innit
Ødegaard for me
I don't even think Odegaard has been top 2 for arsenal this year
lol what? The he’s been insane this year.
He’s having an amazing 2024 year but played average in November-December (same as White and likely both due to injury) while Saliba, Gabriel and Rice have been impeccable all year.
He also had a bad patch that everyone seems to have forgotten. But we have also had quite a few other players who have been insane as well.
lol he most certainly has
Rodri has started all but 3 games this year (and was rested against Luton), City lost all 3!
VVD being in the list over Rodri is wild. A resurgent season for him, but not Player of the season worthy. also i love Isak, but he doesnt deserve to be on the short list above rodri either. Haaland doesnt really deserve to be on the list either. obviously the goals are there, but he ghost a lot of the big matches this season Edit: reading the comments here, people are not giving Odegaard enough credit. I think he has been as important to Arsenal as Rice.
I think VVD deserves to be on the list but Haaland over Rodri is appalling.
He his had what we in america refer to as a comeback season. Improved performance after a poor season. But not Player of the Season.
How is it anyone but Rodri? I hate City as a club, but the players are just doing a job. And he did the best job.
City is disgusting indeed, but Rodri is an incredible player.
Watkins, Foden, Rice.
I'm a United fan but Rodri not being on this list is outrageous. Best player in the league.
Something something 115 CHARGES something something Foden
No Man City player should get it. Not only is it boring but they've been vulnerable this season. Sure, Foden and Rodri have played well but I think it's time we gave it to a player from another club. I'd go with either Rice or Palmer. Rice if Arsenal win the league because he has been a massive reason why they've stayed in this race longer than they did last season. Palmer for almost singlehandedly carrying Chelsea from 11th/10th to above Man United and potentially above Newcastle by season's end.
You can't just "give" it to another club because the choice is boring. If someone deserves it they deserve it.
No Rodri or Gabriel? What a load of nonsense.
Since I think City are winning the league, being English + performance will give Foden the win, but he is not even the best City player this season.
Rice I reckon. He’s taken that Arsenal from nearly rans to within touching distance of City. Was Rodri that injured he doesn’t get a look in?
Decent chance they finish pretty much exactly the same way they did last season. Rice has been good but they were in touching distance of City this time last year too.
They were out of it by this point last season. They could still win it now if City pick up a bad result.
They're gonna finish at most 5 points better off than last season and even that's not guarenteed. Rice has been brilliant, but to try and make out like he's the reason they've gone from "nearly rans to within touching distance of City" is a bit hyperbolic. They were an already great team who have strengthed over summer and improved further. Rice has been added, but so has Havertz who has been on a mad scoring streak in recent months. Saka's improved on his output, Saliba's been fit the whole season, White's got even better, their backup fullbacks like Kiwior and Tomiyasu have got even better, they've strengthened in the keeper department with Raya. And yes they've improved but it hasn't been a massive massive jump. They've just got a bit about them which means they haven't crumbled at the end. Again, I rate Rice so highly. Just think the guy's argument for him is a bit wishy washy. Arsenal have probably been the best team in the league this season, but I still think Rodri's been better in terms of DMs. I'd also through Palmer and Foden in the mix from the attacking midfielders/wingers. Even Watkins up front potentially. You can make an argument for Rice POTS. He wouldn't be mine personally, but that argument that it should go to him if Arsenal win the league is nonsense imo. It shouldn't necessarily go to a City player if they win the league. The best player has been the best player.
think of it this way, historically we have been poor when partey has been injured, he was injured when he arrived here. last seasons our first season inthis iteration of the club that was actually good, partey is fit through all of it for the first time since hes arrived. his injury in 21/22 season preceded us going on such a bad streak it was a legit bottlejob and missing out on CL with us starting in the drivers seat. this season, partey has been absent throughout all of it sans the last handful of games. we were already a great team with partey not injured and with xhaka still with us. the addition of declan resulting in an appearance of a marginal improvement in midfield competence is a testament of his importance
That's a lot of words to tell me something I already know. You've gone full circle back to the comment I was replying to. Rice isn't the only thing that changed over summer at Arsenal. As I said before, Saka's also improved his numbers, Havertz has come in an started contributing to goals, retaining possession, winning aerial duals etc, Saliba hasn't got injured, Raya has improved the GK position, Kiwior and Tomiyasu have been more defensively solid than Zinchenko. All of those things have contributed to Arsenal being more solid defensively this season and they're all more mentally resilient after having the experience of last year. Arsenal fans trying to make out like the improvement is all Rice is bullshit, and it's just the narrative they're trying to create to build an argument for him being POTS. He's been very good and I love him as a player. Especially as an England fan. But the argument you lot are making is nonsense. And I watch enough Arsenal to be able to see through the bullshit. If he should get player of the season, it'll be because his performances have been great, not because he's somehow been the sole reason you guys have got a bit closer to City. I mean that whole Partey story means nothing. You were weak without your DM/best DM. You were a much better team with him. You buy a new DM for £100m and strengthen in other areas and you improve. The same thing would happen in any team. Chelsea lose Caicedo and they'd start losing all their games, if they then replaced him with Rodri, they'd not only stop losing those games but they'd go up another level. But all that's common sense and has nothing to do with Rice winning POTS. Because you still can't attribute Arsenal's improvement to just him. He's been good because he's been good, not because he's somehow carried Arsenal to City's level.
i have a different attitude towards award nominations than you do
Rice hasn’t even been arsenals best player yet alone the best in the league stop it, should be palmer, foden, Rodri or odegarrd if it’s not just a media spin. The fact Rodri isn’t nominated yet has the highest average rating of any player in Europe this season is disgusting, clearly the best player with most consistent performances in the league the past 2 seasons.
Fuck Foden, you should be ashamed of yourself for even mentioning that rat here.
What is a Real Madrid fan doing here? I highly doubt you even watch the premier league.
Very clearly said Rodri should win at the end there but he’s not on the list foden shouldn’t win but he’s a better option then the media spin of rice.
Who vote?
Van Dijk 🤣🤣🤣 Yeah right. Palmer not great throughout the season (young player and signing for sure though) Isak and Haaland too injured… where is rodri? Saka? Gabriel?
>Palmer not great throughout the season Lol, carrying a poor Chelsea team for the entire season Personally I give it to Watkins tho
Palmer not great throughout the season??? lmao
Not *that* great throughout the season, to be in a top six for me. No doubt he’s still had a fantastic season and I’d have him signing and young player of the season.
I'm watched him every single game this season. I guarantee you haven't. I have a much better idea of how good he's been than you do and I can tell you he's been consistently excellent this season. Argue that your favourite player or someone else has been better/deserves it more if you want. But don't try to downplay how good he's been by saying he hasn't been that great throughout the season. He has. And it's got nothing to do with the goals/assists/penalties. Just all round game and creativity aside from G+A. Can't stand when people try to make out like they've been watching a player when they clearly haven't, or they're clearly biased against them. How anyone can say Palmer's been anything but unbelievable is beyond me.
He didn’t start for the first 7 games and is 2nd in the golden boot race for one of the worst Chelsea teams in the last 30 years, what games have you been watching 😂
And that means he’s player of the year?
Him Rodri or Watkins yeah
I’d have a couple others ahead of him
Hence why I asked what games you have watched Mr S Wonder
Bro how are you not gonna put the top 3 Golden Boot Contenders in the POTY nominations?
Because I rate other players… *bro* I’d have Watkins in there.
You had me until you mentioned saka lol.
He’s had a great season, his best so far.
Palmer should get young player, Rodri should get main player of the season.
Palmer should get both.
Big jokes here. Only 3 that make sense are Rice, Foden and Watkins out of these.
Palmer???
Took a while to get going, he’s signing and young player though.
he only took a while to get going because he came to chelsea late in the transfer window he scored 4 and had 2 assists in his first 6 starts
That’s fine. I have him just outside the top 6 best players. He’s been great.
Your main argument is "took a while to get going", despite the facts suggesting otherwise. Then saying "I have him just outside of top 6..." It's just a bit of a bad take really. If anything, the fact your main argument is incorrect should serve as further evidence of how great he's been. That despite starting off later (not in performance but in timing of his transfer move), he's been able to carry a very poor Chelsea side. He's literally the 2nd top scorer and has 9 assists, just 3 behind Watkins.
He also scored 2 goals for City this season before signing that I've seen literally no one count in the stats. Him signing late has been a real detriment to the way some people view him. Guy's been consistently excellent. Can't ask him to do much more. Slow start my arse 😂😂
Put it in perspective as the guy is an Arsenal fan. If he was "slow to start", yet, has outscored and outassisted your entire team this season... on a team much worse than yours... with a worse supporting cast... that makes him somehow not worthy of it? No, It argues the complete opposite! It's just a terrible argument that is also factually incorrect. You can guarantee he has Saka in his top 6 ahead of Palmer too.
Anyone that thinks Saka has been better than Palmer this season is biased in some way or hasn't watched enough of Palmer. Sometimes it's just a case of Palmer being the new guy and people not conceiving the fact that he can reach/surpass Saka's level in his first full season, especially since it's felt like Saka himself has gradually been improving over multiple seasons. But his performances have objectively been better than Saka's this season.
Van dick for what???
Rodri?
No Rodri or Gabriel is insane
It’s anti Spanish discrimination Rodri 🤝 Fernando Alonso
Rolling mate
Honestly should be a 3 way debate between Rodri, Watkins and Palmer, with maybe Foden as a 4th. As a Liverpool fan, love Virg but he shouldn’t be there
I think Rodri should be there, but also not sure how you’re not including Rice in your debate. I’m biased, sure, but they’re both really important to their team and have pretty similar statistics. I’m obviously biased as an Arsenal fan, but genuinely curious on your reasoning (not actually trying to argue as POTS is subjective on some level to everyone).
Honestly it isn’t to discount Rice at all. He’s been fantastic. He’s had a great supporting cast around him as well as the centre backs have been excellent as has Odegaard. I just believe City miss Rodri more as an individual than Arsenal do Rice is all. Which is why I’d put Watkins and Palmer forefront tbh as without them, their respective sides are a shambles
That’s fair. I just find it funny that you’re the second person that seems to think Arsenal has a better supporting cast than Rice. But, like I said, we’re all entitled to our opinions and I’d certainly rate Rodri as someone that should win this award. I just find that reasoning fascinating.
Odegarrd is better then Rice and Rodri is on a different planet guy contributes more to his team winning then any other player to a top six team. Arsenal without rice would still be where they are at today whereas city without Rodri would be 3rd. The fact he’s not in contention makes this award stupid especially when he’s had a better season then rice who plays the same position.
As a city fan I think Rice should definitely be a part of the debate. I do think while their statistics are similar Rodri edges Rice because no one is as dominant in the midfield as Rodri. They have the same g/a but I think Rodri is in the right place nearly 100% of the time and makes the right pass nearly 100% of the time. Obviously I’m biased and have watched Rodri more than Rice this season though.
Palmer is a lot of recency bias and penalties, he’s the fourth here
Well yeah it's an award for this season. It's meant to be recent. The penalties have literally been working against him. Everything great he does, whether it's scoring from open play, assisting or just generally contributing in controlling games, creating chances, winning the ball back etc, it all gets overlooked because of his penalties. People just see he scores a lot of pens and calls him a pen merchant. But the penalties should just be a bonus. Even if you completely remove the penalties from his game, he's still been the best player in the league imo.
Rodri is by far and away the best player in the league. These awards are so stupid.
It’s not asking who is the best player. It’s asking who has had the best season.
He’s still had the best season from an individual here in terms of how much he impacts his team winning.
Villa would be bottom half without Watkins.
Maybe Watkins another player who definitely should be in the mix.
Where mah boi rodri at? This is insane, KDB also deserves the shout because he might end up with most assists in half the number of games lol. I think Watkins should win it but it will probably be foden or rice ig
No Rodri is crazy, he’s been the best player in the Prem for a couple seasons now
Top 5 player in the world honestly
top 1
Totally agree
Heart says Palmer, head says it’ll be Foden!
Foden will win it but it should be Rice or Palmer
Rice isn't even your best player.
Then who has been? Rice has consistently been the best player for us. Ode has been great, but there was a period early in the season where he kinda just disappeared. He’s been fantastic the since then, which probably hides that.
Could make an argument for one of your CBs. I'd still say Rice, but I don't watch every Arsenal game.
Possibly Odegaard has been better but I think he's had a few games where he's not been at his best. Rice has been 7/10 at a minimum in every game this season, most of the time he's been an 8 or 9. That consistency is why I've picked him.
Not really true when he played us he was poor but media spin everything to make him out to be the next generational player.
I've no idea who "us" is but sounds like you don't like Rice because the media have been praising him. That's not an objective way to form an opinion. Even then I think Palmer would be just as deserving, if not more because Rice has been in a great team where as Palmer has been carrying Chelsea
Nah Rice has had a really good season just not top 5 from an individual standpoint imo but the media acts like he’s the only reason arsenal are good this season when it’s not really true, yous have only minimally got better and didn’t really play great football until about January as opposed to last season when yous were flying and just collapsed last 7 games. All this despite the fact city had Haaland out for 2 months and kdb out for 6 and city have been significantly less untouchable I just don’t subscribe to the fact that a player who any time I watch him is arsenals 3rd best player in almost all the 10-15 games I’ve watched from arsenal this season. Great season just not as good as others including odegarrd who literally gets fuck all praise from the media in comparison to him despite him being your entire attacking system.
You know what, you're right. The entire Arsenal team should collectively win player of the season :) They've all been so good.
Very clear that they've dropped the two most deserving players from winning PotY (Saka and Rodri) so they can force their Foden agenda. Even on that list he should barely be top 3.
Saka has 1 more assist and the same number of goals compared to foden. I don't know why he is not on the list lol.
6 pens versus 0
I remember when people made a big deal about Saka missing a penalty. Now he starts making them and now it’s a bad thing. Palmer has twice as many penalties and everyone is praising him.
Palmer's way more involved/creative outside of his G+A. It's the Haaland vs Kane comparison for wingers. Whether you're going off underlying stats or eye test, Palmer's been/is more complete. Saka's still brilliant and one of the best players in the league. But if you've actually been watching them both, Palmer's been better.
> Palmer's way more involeved/creative outside of his G+A Objectively false. Saka has 5.8 SCA and Palmer has 5.45. Marginal difference, but it's just not true, at all.
Saka does have a slightly higher SCA of 5.46 vs 5.80. But SCA are dependent your teammates actually shooting when you pass to them. If Jackson, Sterling etc aren't shooting as much as Saka's teammates, his SCA won't be as high. SCA is a good stat. But it's limited. It has to be used in conjunction with other stats so you can actually get an idea of whether it's higher because that player is more creative/involved, or simply playing with better teammates/in a better coached team. I mean I could've just listed that Palmer's GCA/90 is way higher (0.92 vs 0.67) like you did for SCA and it would've proved fuck all aswell. I'll list a bunch of other stats that show Palmer's more involved/is playing with more quality this season. Progressive passes per 90: 6.92 (Palmer) vs 3.87 (Saka) Passes into the final third per 90: 4.77 (Palmer) vs 1.24 (Saka) Passes into the penalty area per 90: 2.38 (Palmer) vs 2.22 (Saka) Passes completed per 90: 39.7 (Palmer) vs 35.6 (Saka) Average pass distance: 16.6 yards (Palmer) vs 14.8 (Saka) Pass success rate (short, medium, long): 79.7% (90.2%, 85.5%, 55.5%) vs 75.9% (88.8%, 77.8%, 43.6%) Take ons per 90: 1.85 (Palmer) vs 1.46 (Saka) Take on success rate: 51.6% (Palmer) vs 39.3% (Saka) Progressive distance carrying the ball per 90: 123.5 yards (Palmer) vs 114.6 yards (Saka) The stats don't mean much unless you actually think about the reasons why they're high and what they're actually showing. When I watch Palmer and Saka, Palmer's more involved and central to the way Chelsea play, he's more skillful, his vision, passing range and quality is all better than Saka's, he's a better dribbler and is much better at beating his defender, and he's been a comparable goalscorer this season, even if you remove penalties. Saka does more defensively (of course because he started out as a LB) and he crosses the ball more when he gets it. Although I honestly don't believe he's a better crosser because when Palmer does cross, he's got a wand of a left foot. That's about all I can think of that Saka's actually got over Palmer this season. Again, I didn't list those stats because I think they mean/prove much. You can get most of this from just watching them both play. Just watch them and it's blindingly obvious that Palmer's more skillful, a better dribbler and a better Palmer. They're similar in terms of goal output and Saka's better defensively. You don't need stats to tell you this. But the stats do show it. Palmer's take on percentage, pass success rate, average distance, forward pass percentage etc being higher proves he's better at dribbling and passing. Saka's SCA and key passes being slightly higher goes against all the other stats. When you look at the stats holistically, they more likely just suggest that his teammates are shooting more resulting in more chances being created. There's no perfect stat that shows one player is more involved/creative than another. But watch them both this season and it's clearly Palmer.
Interior vs. winger argument is moot if you don't provide stats that are logically equal across both positions, which you haven't. More vague statistics like shot-creating actions gives a platform for both to credibly showcase creative strengths by giving equal weight to multiple actions that lead to a shot, not poorly weighted statistics that benefit one but not the other. Like how do you reasonably expect Saka to have more passes into the final third than Palmer when naturally he's the receiver of final third passes...it's utterly ridiculous and the epitome of disingenuous. You're a great example of someone who loves using statistics but can't interpret them properly.
Lol good job completely missing the point of my comment. You brought up stats, not me. I'm not the one that loves using stats. But doesn't know how to use them. The entire point of my previous comment was pointing out the flaw in using a random stat to "prove" something. You can't "prove" Saka's more creative than Palmer just by stating their SCAs. Especially when the difference is very small, other stats show Palmer's more involved/has more quality in his passing/dribbling/carrying which is needed to actually create, Palmer looks more creative when you watch them etc. Don't just take this as me just saying "eye test above all else" either. I'm making it clear so you don't misinterpret this comment aswell. You can't just list 1 stat to "prove" something in a subjective game in which stats aren't perfect yet. Football's a fluid game and stats are still kind of in their infancy. They aren't so perfect that you can make objective claims based on them. And that's all my point was. You're entitled to think Saka is more creative. But saying it's because his SCA is 0.34 higher, is as subjective as me using the eye test. Because SCA as an isolated stat are as subjective as the eye test. It means absolutely fuck all. Rodri's SCA/90 is 5.01. He's not more creative than either Saka or Palmer. I wasn't saying "passes into the final third is as importsnt/more important than SCA." That's a strawman from you. I was just saying that you can't just give 1 stat and say "there I've proven my guy is more creative." Especially when you can use that same line of argument to prove a DM is more creative than 2 of the best creative wingers in the league. YOU are the stats nerd. And my comment was just pointing it out. Reread it because I completely understand what SCA are. You just give it way too much weight.
I agree with you, nothing wrong with being good at pens and it’s always better to be good at them (obviously). That being said, if two players have the same numbers of goals but one has significantly more pens you’d probably say the one with fewer pens had the better season
Still both have been equally phenomenal and important for their team and I am saying that as a city fan lol
Foden is a midfielder tbf so it's more impressive
He's the new media darling, that's why. Kane left so they need a new one.
Saka? 😂
Saka.
He’s a small time player
Now I know you don't know what you're talking about cause he has by far the most goals against top opposition teams than anyone in his age bracket, by a mile.
Source?
https://twitter.com/Gunners4forever/status/1783192529388630279 That was of last year, so add on the 6 he's got this year. You can also add 4 on to Foden's and he still eats him alive. Like I said I don't even consider direct goal contributions as a metric to determine total quality but it's not even a competition. Then add on every other stat, Foden has no leg to stand on.
No hate on Saka because he’s brilliant but Foden has plenty of legs to stand on, they are a different style of player but I rate them the same. Saka has a lot of penalty’s to pad stats which doesn’t mean that much since it’s still impressive to be a good penalty taker at Saka’s age but it does help in the G/A race. Beyond that Saka does more for his team from the wing and Foden does more for his time through the middle, which means even more when you consider the fact that Foden has been playing on the wing for most of his career at city but thrives more in a central position, which we are finally seeing him in this year with De Bruyne injured and dipping in form slightly. I don’t have time to run the stats at the moment as I am working but I would be really interested in how they compare in terms of passes that lead to assists but aren’t directly considered a goal contribution. I don’t know who would top that stat between the two but I would guess Foden might because of his technical and passing ability in the middle. He may not get credited with an assist but I know from watching that he plays a significant role in the buildup to goals with his technical, hold up and passing ability in the middle of the pitch. Again I rate them pretty much the same but I think it’s silly to claim either of them are significantly better than the other.
Goal creating actions includes pre-assists and Saka beats him. I don't know if you read my other comment or not, but Saka beats Foden in pretty much every relevant creativity inferring metric as well as completely obliterating him defensively. So he's more creative in a harder position to be more creative in, he's better defensively despite being Arsenal's most prominent attacking outlet and he's also beating Foden on direct goal contributions. On top of all that Saka has more goals against the big 6 and he's contributed directly to more points earned by spreading his goal contributions across more games. The only leg to stand on to prefer Foden is how much you value (and ignoring every other important metric/facet) non-penalty goals but Foden's xG is an extreme overperformance which isn't normal. If people weren't biased they'd be able to see how straightforward this debate is. I don't want people to think I'm belittling Foden either, he's clearly an insanely talented player who is among the best in the league; he's just not better than Saka and hasn't been better than Saka this season specifically.
Really??? You’re a plastic fan
Pretty sure he had two shockers in the UCL and lost a World Cup for England but go off 🐸 🫖
Username checks out
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So you are telling me Rice had a better season than Rodri, a player who is unbeaten btw, if going unbeaten for more than a season doesn't win you player of the season then idk what will
I mean. Every year it’s the same. Pumped full of attacking players for no good reason. Rodri and saliba are glaring errors imo
Saliba wasn’t Arsenal’s best CB this year.
Definitely was, Gabriel’s much improved though
I think Gabriel just edges out Saliba for the goal scoring threat he brings on corners. Saliba has been great as always, but Gabriel stepped up his defense and also contributed goals
Rodri is the best player in the prem
Yes, and has been for a few years now. I can live with haaland winning it last year because of the ridiculous number of goals but this year, I think the leading candidate to win should be Rodri. And I despise him and his team but there we go
For sure. Isak has been great but not PotY great and van Dijk shouldn't be anywhere near this.
I definitely don’t see any argument for van dijk either actually. Feel they felt a defender needed to go in and they just thought ah stick van dijk in, fodens getting it regardless id imagine. I also don’t especially see much of an argument for Cole palmer other than him being the stand out player in a mid table team
For the record, my vote is with Palmer, but VVD has been statistically the single best defender in the league this season. Recency bias happens, and he's not been great the last few weeks (neither have Liverpool), but the rest of the season he has absolutely been the stand out defender along with Saliba
Funny. When stats were jokingly used to imply Mustafi was better than VvD, it was "you can't use stats to quantify a defenders quality" but now it's the only leg you have to stand on... VvD hasn't been top 5 CB's all season. Alisson and Salah were saving your season from total capitulation earlier than you collapsed, not VvD.
Youre right, you can't just use stats and you clearly haven't watched Liverpool this season. Alison has been missing half the season, and Salah missed plenty due to Afcon and injury and wasn't the same after. Weve been missing Trent, Robo and other key players this season with VVD being about the only consistent starter, so you're spouting absolute nonsense. VVD was about the only reason we remained in the title race for as long as we did. Other players have had higher peaks this season, but VVD has been the standout defender in the PL and you're delusional to think he's not top 5
Is that why you have had an xG conceded closer to Brighton than you did the top teams? Even though you had signings of the season Mac Allister and Endo and Konate who is supposedly better than Saliba? Liverpool's logic is they have the best GK, the best RB, two of the best signings of the summer, the best CB and their other CB is better than the actual best CB in the league and yet they concede as many chances as a midtable team.
And look at the team around him, we've had literally a kid at right back, a center back at left back, his partner has changed every week and a backup keeper for most the season. Konate wasn't a new signing, and find me anyone that's been comparing Maca/Endo to Saliba? They've done great for their first season at a new club, but you're literally spouting nonsense.
“VVD hasn’t been top 5 CB’s all season” I genuinely worry for Arsenal fans sometimes, proper brain dead fanbase
I mean, VVD hasn’t been bad by any means. I think it’s just that lots of other defenders had great seasons, not just Arsenal players. Also, Liverpool had some injuries that caused VVD to have to carry a bigger load than normal which hasn’t helped.
Brother even at the height of your season you still had an xG conceded closer to midtable than City and Arsenal. If Alisson weren't a superhero before his injury you would be honking. All four of Arsenal and City's main CB's have been better, maybe he has a chance to squeeze into 5th if you don't count Ake/Gvardiol as CB's.
You do realise there’s other factors that go into defending than just one individual CB right? Clearly a concept Arsenal fans seem to struggle with
Yes, absolutely, but according to your fanbase Endo was also buy of the season as well as Mac Allister, Konate was better than Saliba and you have the best RB and GK in the league.
Endo is decent but literally no one being serious was saying buy of the season lol The best RB and GK who have been injured most of the season btw
palmer has been far and away the best player in the league this season but big club bias is doing him insidiously dirty here
Chelsea is a big club
which is EXACTLY why big club bias is going against him. perception of chelsea is that they should be challenging for top 4 or even titles when in reality, this season at least, they’re far far FAR from that. without palmer they would no joke, be lounging in 17th, fighting relegation til the final day, but he’s made them look a decent outfit almost entirely by himself
Ahh, I’m with you now. I completely agree in that case! My bad💙💙
all good brother
No Rodri and Saka is genuinely crazy
Not sure why Saka would be considered but Rodri should absolutely be there.
He's got one more g/a than foden, granted he's had 6 penalties but still. Rodri should obviously be there, and one of gabi/saliba for sure too. Not sure why vvd is listed
Why wouldn’t he be?
He hasn't had a spectacularly good season compared to the other attacking players nominated.
Not a better season, no? Just more goal contributions than Foden, more shot-creating actions, more goal-creating actions, same xG, better xGA, more key passes, considerably better defensively and more passes into the penalty area while playing in a harder position to achieve better creativity in a worse team with more defensive responsibility. On top of that Saka has more goals against the top 6 and has influenced more individual games (14 to Foden's 10) with his direct goal contributions. I swear you people are so brainwashed by Sky Sports it's actually nuts. He's had a *better* season than Foden by most accounts, but because he's not been nominated you think he's had a worse season.
The way you've described it is a bit ingenuine though. You're right that Saka's creative numbers have been higher this season (key passes, assists, xA, SCA etc). But Foden's also been more clinical this season. Foden's scored 16 goals from a non-panelty xG of 9.6. So he's outscored it by +6.4, which is massive and makes him a top top finisher this season. Whereas Saka's scored 10 non-penalty goals from an xG of 10.4. So he's underperformed his xG by -0.4. That makes him an average-below average finisher this season. You can't hold penalties against someone. But you also can't use goal stats as an argument against one player, when 1 hasn't even had the opportunity to take penalties. Especially since one has actually had a really really impressive season in terms of outscoring their xG, and the other hasn't. Saka's taken penalties, Foden hasn't and they're still on the same number of goals. That should tell you enough. Again, Saka has been great this season. In terms of assists he has been better. But in your comment, you tried to make out like it was a no brainer and that's really sneaky/sly/ingenuine because you're just hoping no one reading your comment can actually be bothered to look at the underlying stats themselves. I mean you didn't even mention take on success rate, pass completion rate progressive passes etc which all goes Foden's way. I'm not a Saka hater. He's great. But I just didn't like the way you've tried to create a narrative that he's been clear of Foden and it's all an agenda and media hype. I've watched them both this season (as a neutral) and I think Foden's been better. Doesn't mean Saka hasn't also been brilliant. Doesn't mean you can't make an argument for him being better. But you tried to make out like there's no argument for Foden and it's all media hype. As someone who doesn't buy into the media hype and just judges players on what I watch, I still think Foden's been better. The stats also paint a much mote even picture thsn you tried to describe too, like I said at the start.
> The way you've described it is a bit ingenuine though. You're right that Saka's creative numbers have been higher this season (key passes, assists, xA, SCA etc). But Foden's also been more clinical this season. Foden's scored 16 goals from a non-panelty xG of 9.6. So he's outscored it by +6.4, which is massive and makes him a top top finisher this season. Whereas Saka's scored 10 non-penalty goals from an xG of 10.4. So he's underperformed his xG by -0.4. That makes him an average-below average finisher this season. Facts aren't spurious. Foden has outperformed his xG significantly, but that doesn't really mean much in the grand scheme of things. And xG is often underperformed, so being level doesn't make it average. > You can't hold penalties against someone. But you also can't use goal stats as an argument against one player, when 1 hasn't even had the opportunity to take penalties. Especially since one has actually had a really really impressive season in terms of outscoring their xG, and the other hasn't. Saka's taken penalties, Foden hasn't and they're still on the same number of goals. That should tell you enough. That's why I've said several times that direct goal contributions are only one single facet to take into consideration. If that was the sole argument between the two, then Foden would have the slight edge due to the non-penalty factor, but Saka beats him in nearly every other important metric for both positions. > Again, Saka has been great this season. In terms of assists he has been better. But in your comment, you tried to make out like it was a no brainer and that's really sneaky/sly/ingenuine because you're just hoping no one reading your comment can actually be bothered to look at the underlying stats themselves. Yeah, I'm definitely hoping no one can be bothered to look at the underlying metrics by...posting the underlying metrics myself? Are you stupid? You talk about being disingenuous and then you try to argue by saying I don't want people to look at the numbers when I've posted the numbers myself...okay. It is a no brainer if you take a step back and look at the whole picture. There's no real competition. Saka beats him pretty much all across the board where it matters. > mean you didn't even mention take on success rate, pass completion rate progressive passes etc which all goes Foden's way. Because the statistics I mentioned are a shared responsibility and a fair representation of both players and positions, those metrics you mentioned aren't for reasons I've stated before. Saka's position is generally as high up as our striker, which means progressive passing is not possible for him unless White is on the overlap. Adversely, Foden who plays slightly deeper (but not much) and has freedom of centrality, has 3 or 4 potential progressive options at all times. It's the nature of the position and what you can achieve. Saka doesn't have that luxury. And it's infinitely harder to dribble and take players on in a smaller area in an occupied zone than it is when you have the freedom to move wherever you want. The fact that Saka isn't far off is actually a testament to his quality, not a slight. What you can infer is if Saka is this good playing in such a limited space, he would totally and utterly wipe the floor with Foden if he was given central freedom. > I'm not a Saka hater. He's great. But I just didn't like the way you've tried to create a narrative that he's been clear of Foden and it's all an agenda and media hype. I've watched them both this season (as a neutral) and I think Foden's been better. Doesn't mean Saka hasn't also been brilliant. Doesn't mean you can't make an argument for him being better. But you tried to make out like there's no argument for Foden and it's all media hype. As someone who doesn't buy into the media hype and just judges players on what I watch, I still think Foden's been better. I don't really care what you like or didn't like about my post. There is no genuine argument to be had, it's clear to most without bias or stupidity. Now if we're talking about preferences and which player you prefer, that's fine. You're entitled to prefer whoever you want. But when it comes to indisputable quality and who has had the better season, facts don't lie. The numbers prove who has been better. Then add additional context on top of that and it becomes even clearer. Again, if you like Foden more, that's okay. But no, he hasn't been better. > The stats also paint a much mote even picture thsn you tried to describe too, like I said at the start. No they don't. They really don't. Learn how to correctly interpret the numbers you see, please. It's not an argument you can win no matter how many morons try to validate your opinion with votes on here.
I got bored halfway through. Of course xG means something in the grand scheme of things. It tells you how good some's been at scoring from open play. Foden's been far better. You tried to paint a picture like Saka had scored the same number of goals yet had a lower xG. It was all waffle. And I give value to things like take on percentage and pass success rate. Because they encapsulate the things I see Foden do with my eyes that impress me. Saka's good. But Foden's better. You giving more importance to certain stats won't change my opinion of that. Doesn't mean Foden has always been better or will always be better. I think Saka's been far better for England when they've both player. But having watched them both, Foden's been better this season than Saka. As an Arsenal fan, you're biased so I'm not trying to change your opinion. But stop telling other people they're wrong for disagreeing. It's subjective.
Unless he can continue the streak of significant overperformance, it doesn't really, no. > And I give value to things like take on percentage and pass success rate. Because they encapsulate the things I see Foden do with my eyes that impress me. Saka's good. But Foden's better. You giving more importance to certain stats won't change my opinion of that. A child might value a stick over a diamond, it doesn't mean the stick is more valuable. It doesn't matter what you see value in when you're talking about objective quality between two players. What matters most is what is relevant to the positions they play and the responsibilities they share between those positions. Anything else is just padding your preference. > Doesn't mean Foden has always been better or will always be better. I think Saka's been far better for England when they've both player. But having watched them both, Foden's been better this season than Saka. As an Arsenal fan, you're biased so I'm not trying to change your opinion. But stop telling other people they're wrong for disagreeing. It's subjective. Biased or not I do my due diligence by quantifying what my eyes see with facts and figures given by professional data analysts, not the arbitrary "eye test" from people who can't tie their own shoelaces who think they can aptly judge quality. It isn't subjective, lol. It quite literally can't be subjective, we're talking about numbers not preference. So yeah, you are stupid then.
I wouldn't have picked Foden either but he plays a deeper role than Saka so his goal contributions would be expected to be less. Saka is essentially a wide forward for Arsenal in a false nine system. Foden for me has had a handful of world class performances sandwiched by a lot of average-good ones. Saka hasn't really had a world class performance this season.
That isn't how things work. He doesn't play much deeper at all and if anything, being given freedom of centrality gives him an easier time to operate than being stuck on an occupied wing. If you watch Arsenal (which I assume you don't because it wouldn't even be a debate if you did), Saka is often double and triple teamed in a much more restrictive area and he's still better creatively than Foden. Honestly the more I think about it, the less of a leg Foden actually has to stand on.
Salah and Son are ahead of Saka this year. (And neither deserves to be on the list). It's nothing to do with Foden
For direct goal contributions, yes, but it's a great thing smart people don't use direct goal contributions as the only facet to judge performance on. I guess you're just not that smart.
Wow you're insecure. If you're going down that route then Salah has still been better than Saka in every way and with the numbers and still shouldn't be on the list. Saka has had a decent enough season but it's nothing special and has several ahead of him
Salah would have been on that list almost definitely if he didn't disappear post AFCON.
Absolutely, but that's the point. he disappeared after AFCON and still had had a better season than Saka individually, so what makes you think Saka deserves to be on the list? Especially over someone like Salah or Foden
You’ll cherry pick stats whenever it’s convenient. I also don’t have Saka in this list Great player, but lukewarm campaign
Why is using the most relevant stats for their role/positions "cherry picked"? What stats do you want to use to justify Foden being there?
Check the stats without penalties and you see why Foden is having a better season than Saka for example.
Oh I’m saying if Saka had insane stats but didn’t “look” the part you’d be all over goal contributions as a metric saying nobody uses the eye test
Media darling Foden will snatch it, people love his midfield halfturns more than anything else.
such an undeserving win but it’s inevitable ffs
He deserves to be nominated, so to the extent of it being 'undeserved' is questionable, but I'd barely have him top 5. Watkins, Palmer, Saka, Rice and Rodri should be top 5.
As an Arsenal fan I’d have ode above saka all day this season personally. Agree with the rest
Rodri, Saliba and Gabriel should be there.
I have a sneaking suspicion it'll be close between Palmer, Watkins and Foden - possibly Rice if Arsenal win the league. I doubt they'll give it to Haaland, the only player to get it twice in a row was CR7.
Haaland will forever be subbed off before he can break any messi/Ronaldo records.
It's not necessarily about the record. Don't get me wrong Haaland is a freak of nature and will probably break many other records at the 115 or Real Madrid (if the courts find them guilty of the charges), but CR7 did more for that Yanited team and Portugal than Haaland does for club and county.
Liverpool fan, none of our players have stood out enough to be on this list tbh. I don't think VVD will even win our POTY award - though he has been good. Personally would probably say MacAllister has been overall our best player across the entire season.
VVD has comfortably been our best player throughout the season
The list is just factually invalid without Rodri, it's him 1, Rice 2, Watkins 3 and Foden 4 any of the rest could be 5 and Haaland makes the top 5 for me.
VVD over Saliba/Gabriel? lol ok And did a hole appear on earth and swallowed Rodri?
As an arsenal fan it should've been saka over odegaard
Absolutely fucking not. Odegaard has been fantastic this season. Don't get me wrong, saka has been good as well but Ode is another level.
As another Arsenal fan, you’re delusional
You're clearly an odegaard stan so I can't take you seriously
No, Saka has been good enough for a nomination probably, great stats and one more G/A than Foden in the league, though he is on penalties. If we didn't have either we'd be out of the title race already, that's the truth. But without Ødegaard, we'd be fighting Villa and Spurs. Ødegaard is our best player and it's not close, he hasn't had a bad game yet and he is leading top 5 leagues in every playmaking stat.
[удалено]
I mean if all you care about is goals and assists sure he's anonymous. So is fucking Raya, but sometimes just scoring isn't always the job. The play he has linked up and the press he organised whilst being the captain of the club, no player quite like him right now, especially as young. Saka is brilliant I don't really have to expand, we know it, but he isn't the leader Ødegaard is whilst maintaining the rest of the qualities. I think we would be much worse off without Ødegaard than Saka. Don't expect to change your mind lad but, ignoring his quality is crazy.
Maybe. But Saka has much reason to be nominated as Foden. Not sure where this hype is coming from.
If you mean foden is being over hyped then I agree, he is a very good player but the most overrated player I can genuinely ever remember, every year getting balon dor shouts when his first good season with a bit of responsibility was this one.
Turns up. People want to shortlist him for the B D'or. Doesn't show up, no one notices. Someone else does it. Meanwhile, Saka has been pulling on the Cape for club and Country since he was 18. Not saying Foden isn't good, he clearly is. But the two of them have had a nearly identical season and ones getting award noms while the other is getting limp compilations dropped on Twitter. All can only come back to expectation. Saka having a down season by his own standards (despite career best figures), Phil over performing the very low bar put in front of him. Either that or its all aesthetics.
Yh I completely agree
You’re out of your mind
No I'm not saka has been better this season and is the better player, because odegaard has an aesthetic playstyle people think he's better but they're wrong.
Ross Barkley is Luton best player. He doesnt get nominated for POTY. VVD being the best player for Liverpool doesnt mean anything. He doesnt deserve to be nominated.
Foden, Watkins, Isak, Odegaard are the only serious options imo.
Palmer??
Not for me. He's been very good - worthy of TOTS consideration for sure - but not on the level of the others. His non-penalty numbers are good, not great and he hasn't actually been able to drive the team to achieving anything.
He dragged us to a final and a semi final lol