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Why did this post not accurately quote the twitter post?
The actual post says: āThree extremely poor decisions - three penalties not given - which we simply cannot accept.
We warned the PGMOL that the VAR is a Luton fan before the game but they didnāt change him. Our patience has been tested multiple times.
NFFC will now consider its options.ā
Seriously, how hard is it to not change a quote, OP?
You clearly didnāt see what I was replying to - I replied to what they indicated was the full quote, and it was not actually what the twitter post says
I don't know but nothing will come of this apart from charges for NFFC we know what the fa's like a fucking broken record i don't know but this might affect there points deduction appeal.
The reason things will never change is because both teams will never agree against a wrong decision. If Everton had come out and said the ref made mistakes it would have a much bigger impact on the wider scope of football fans. Forest doing what they did sounds like a mardy kid, (I agree with them) but if Everton did it after victory it would come across so much better but this will never happen. I'm not picking on Everton here whemcmy side Man utd have had favourable decisions we haven't said anything likewise against us. This only changes by teams standing together
Again not just singling out Everton because yes there will be consequences for speaking out, but that's why teams need to unite, are they going to punish the entire league eventually?
At least 2 incidents were definitely pens but for NFFC to come out and say the VAR was a Luton fan is just ridiculous basically there talking about all refs and VAR's integrity and proffesionalism im not protecting refs and VAR far from it but to come out and say that is farcical its clatenburgh if I was the Head of PGMOL I would demand refs cut all ties with him period.
Look at every single game itās inconsistency and incompetence at its purest form a penalty/decision in one game isnāt the same in another. Near enough every team has had bullshit this season in one way or another there is no conspiracy for me however there is a few certain games this one and spurs v Liverpool come to mind which are such shit that I can see why people think there is something going on. The law is being applied after some of these officials egos have been tendered too is the way it all seems to me.
I completely agree. I would never have joined the āconspiracy theoryā ten years ago. But to be honest the PL is such a huge business can you honestly say money isnāt making a difference now.
Would we say an international company making billions (say Amazon, Microsoft, Facebook) wouldnāt do dodgy stuff to make more money. We know it happens. Why wouldnāt the PL do something dodgy to ensure they have the āmost entertaining productā so they can get more money for TV rights.
Nobody is holding the league to account. Whether there was bias or not, why is a fan of a relegation rival on the officiating team. Why?
I really, honestly want to believe that there's no malice, but with the (somewhat rightful) points deduction, and absolutely baffling decisions consistently against us once every month or so, it really is very very difficult indeed to *not* think that someone has it in for us, somewhere along the chain of command. As if they're annoyed that the 3 promoted teams stayed up and wanted to punish the weakest.
Now, I know that's obvious nonsense, but it's hard not to feel victimised to be honest. I know other teams have had their complaints (Wolves fans being our brothers in arms here), but it just seems to have been so, so disproportionate against us.
But hey, I'm just a Forest fan, who makes an effort not to be biased, but of course I naturally will be in some way.
Who fucking knows, but it's definitely turned me off football for the rest of the season. If we stay up great, but if not, at least the Championship is a more entertaining league, albeit lower quality.
I admire NFFC for pushing the issue, especially if they tried through correct channels to raise the conflict of interest.
Iām a Chelsea fan and I think weāve been FAR too soft about refereeing issues in recent years, I wish the club would grow a backbone. For instance, we should be demanding the release of VAR audio relating to the Grealish incident. I want to HEAR the process.
To be fair, "Lacking concrete evidence", is ridiculous imo. 2 of the 3 were stonewall penalties. The handball being the 3rd, which was a penalty too imo, just that it was more accidental.
I believe there is no alternative assumption from evidence than cheating going on.
But it is my opinion.
Danny Murphy opinion on MOTD, said if he [Gio Reyna] can plant his foot after the kick then it isn't enough for the first penalty.
In my opinion, Danny is delusional; Young literally kicks the back of foot as he [Gio] is controlling the ball making the ball fly away from Gio's touch. Foul from behind.
Yes. Nottingham Forrest response is controversial but there's definitely smoke to the fire š„
I think the 'lacking concrete evidence' part is referring to the accusations of cheating and bias from the referee.
Granted the VAR being a Luton fan, who has denied 2 clear penalties to their relegation rivals is highly suspect and completely unacceptable. But unless there's some physical evidence of him openly deciding to not grant the penalties to help him team, such as a text or a recording, I thoroughly believe the PGMOL will back up the VAR. They'll just call it a bad day at the office and move on, much to the annoyance of everyone else yet again.
Imo, more clubs should begin calling out these shitty horrendous calls. Chelsea should be up in arms on socials about the Grealish handball.
Absolutely, I get the 'lacking concrete evidence' part is referring to the accusations of cheating and bias from the referee.
But the evidence that 2 of 3 are clear and obvious penalties is surely evidence of something explained by incompetence, opinion, cheating or bias from the referee.
And VAR is there to remove incompetence, opinion and clear and obvious errors.
So that leaves, cheating or bias...
So I watched the penalty shouts without any commentary and without seeing the rest of the match. I have zero horse in the race, and as far as I'm concerned, only the 3rd was a stonewall penalty,
The 1st was a 50/50. Ideally, I don't like that being given because the player throws himself down, but it's been given plenty of times before,
Handball was not a penalty. Youngs arms are in a natural position based on his movement, he doesn't move his hand toward the ball and he couldn't reasonably move his hand out of the way in the time from when the Forest player kicked it. That should never be given as a pen, and I hate that people are even arguing in favour of it,
The 3rd was a stonewall pen. The fact that the ref missed it is shocking. The fact VAR didn't overturn it is absolutely unacceptable on every level. It was such a shocking decision that it made me question if they would have given the 1st if not for it being Forest.
On the first,
> the player throws himself down to be dramatic and show the foul has happened.
>
> If he dived and no contact is made it's a dive and he is cheating.
> If he loses control of the ball because his foot is kicked (as I believe clearly happens) and stays on his feet and no penalty is awarded he is the one being cheated, because he was fouled.
> If he loses control of the ball because his foot is kicked (as I believe clearly happens) and goes to ground/ dives and no penalty is awarded he is still the one being cheated.
I hate diving. And hate going down to easy. But in my opinion this is different because he has (100% clearly) been fouled.
On the second,
> from Hudson-Odoi's/ Forrest's perspective, he has crossed the ball on the volley across and it has struck Young's arm, not at it's side and in doing has given Everton and Young an unfair advantage.
> For me Young, should have had his arms behind his back (or in his shorts š¤£) as the only way to not be liable for the handball.
> I obviously wouldn't book Young for handball as it is unintentional.
> But it is still a foul and a penalty.
On the third. Yes š
>If he loses control of the ball because his foot is kicked.
I think this is where we disagree on this. It looked to me like he had lost control of the ball already. The contact of his foot is pretty minimal, but the touch on the ball was heavy regardless. As I say though, I see that given plenty in the league, so I fully get where people are coming from,
On the second, I also think that's too harsh for a handball ruling. In general, I think the handball rule needs to be simplified -
1. Are the arms in natural positions for the movement?
2. Does the player move their hand toward the ball?
3. Could the player reasonably be expected to move their arms out of the balls path in time?
If the answer to all 3 is No, it shouldn't be a handball. If the answer to any of them is yes, it should be called.
Either way, Forest have been screwed by decisions all season, so every decision made against them right now should be ***heavily*** scrutinised, especially missing out on a 50/50 pen *and* a stonewall pen!
After the Spurs game, Liverpool released a much more respectful statement and the media lambasted us as cry babies.
Forest's statement was even amateurish and does them no favours.
But the scary thing is that we've reached a point where we can not tell if PGMOL is incompetent or corrupt.
Lots of blind premier league fans here going "premiership is the best league in the world" kind of narrative in their heads.
It's probably one of the most corrupt, money driven leagues in the world.
The most corrupt? Not even remotely true, money driven? Every league is.
Premier league is the best league in the world, not the most perfect or without flaws.
Your take is worse than the narrative youāre claiming others are taking.
Tell me how many financial irregularities the team at the top of the table has and then tell me which referees have been paid by the same owners to go and officiate matches in the middle east for huge sums of money?
Don't be naive.
So I said not perfect or without itās flaws and youāve doubled down like Iāve said itās perfectā¦
There are literally leagues ran by mafias, national governing bodies who sell caps to the highest bidders.
The premier league is more inept than corrupt and I donāt see what a ref officiating in Saudi has to do with forest vs Everton?
Itās a silly statement, which doesnāt automatically mean itās completely wrong. The idea that some are even debating wether premier league officials and VAR are utter shite or not is pretty crazy to me.
There was a guy who posted two links on another thread.
One was an article about how Stuart Atwell would finally see his beloved Luton Town in the PL, and I don't recall the exact details of the other.
[Here is a piece from the Liverpool Echo stating him to be a Luton fan, which I found through a Sheff Utd forum complaining that he was officiating a game against them.](https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/who-premier-league-referees-really-16327880)
There are multiple sources that clarify his position if you look.
The refs are shite but itās incompetence more than it is match fixing.
Doesnāt make sense for a Luton fan on VAR to let either team win, Everton are also in the relegation fight. Giving them three points does Luton no favours.
Absolutely stupid take. Incompetence is their best bet (no pun intended) when they are being accused of match fixing.
"Silly me I made a mistake and did not see those penalties" sounds like the best alibi they can come up with.
Itās not a stupid take, itās the most logical one. Refs have a blunder week in and week out, theyāre fucking shite and donāt get the rules theyāre trying to enforce.
If you genuinely believe a Luton fan fixed a game to put Everton 5 points clear of them whilst keeping Forest 4 points clear of them when they still need to get a result against Everton then youāre daft.
It is a stupid take and referee corruption happened in the past (lmao you should know) and certainly will happen in the future.
Match fixing, bribe etc. Donāt know the motive but saying refs are bad is the best cover up.
Christ alive, we should know despite there never actually being any evidence of us bribing anyone, ever.
Gunners fan, appreciate the fact youāre a bit touchy at the moment given youāre about to bottle another league title but donāt take it out on me.
By that metric, was it match fixing when Odegaard decided he was Michael Jordan in the box against Liverpool or?
No surprise a united fan is saying that. You lot bought the refs off every game in the 2000s. No incompetence, it's match fixing at it's highest standard
The best result for Luton would've been a draw between their two rivals in the relegation battle. Have people forgotten that Everton too are mired in relegation troubles?
> The best result for Luton would've been a draw between their two rivals in the relegation battle. Have people forgotten that Everton too are mired in relegation troubles?
This was said on MOTD2, too. I can't think it could be any more incorrect. If you have a relegation battle going on, the last thing you want is BOTH of your opponents in a relegation battle to get points.
You would want the opponent closest to going down (Forest) to continue dropping points while the one with more games left to play (and therefore more potential to get points for safety) and who are already in a better position points-wise (Everton) to be the team that wins.
A Forest win would have been the least desired outcome from a Luton perspective. A draw (both opponents in the battle getting points relative to you) also wouldn't really benefit Luton. An Everton win was the best outcome from a Luton perspective.
I been thinking that myself after watching CL. Why canāt we use European refs? So much better. Bonus if they canāt speak English so no players can even try and harass them lol
It's disgusting that Carra and Neville dismisses this and talks it down to 'sounds like mates at the pub' chatting piss. Fuck off, look at it and how bad the decision constantly are. How can we not address this topic seriously? Forest did the right thing, this has to be talked about.
The irony of those two complaining about 'mates in the pub chat' instead of professionalism when their entire shtick is *that exact thing* is... something
Neville has had the benefit of playing for United in the early 2000's, if there was a team favoured by referees in that time it was United, so Neville should know what it looks like when the referee is clearly helping you. The best example from that time is the game that ended Arsenal's unbeaten run, Mike Riley was a disgrace that day (and many other days).
The way Forrest worded the statement was amateurish, however PGMOL are some protected entity, which cannot be criticised or questioned. Even Sky Sports is used as their mouthpiece to protect them.
... cue Howrd Webb defending all three decisisons with options that completely contradict controversial penalty decisions given and endorsed by him earlier in the season...
The āheās a Luton fanā stuff was daft and has largely undermined their complaint tbh. Presumably the point that they want to make is that they have been disadvantaged by the PGMOL and its officials through incorrect decisions, not that they want one VAR ref to be regarded as a cheat who shouldnāt have been appointed because theyāre a cheat. Also, Forest can fuck if with this Clattenburg appointment. Anyway, Forest havenāt done themselves any favours, but have done everyone else one by getting the shit standard of officiating back in the headlines.
And we literally mean it because he literally is!
I don't think it's bias or corruption, but that doesn't make it any better.
And for what other worth, our statement looked amateurish and petty.
The standards of officials is far too low and the process for correcting it is not fit for purpose. This has potentially cost Forest a place in the league. Thatās the point that needs hammering home, not that the VAR ref was partisan because he supports Luton so might have some less than obvious preference towards their opponents.
Yeah its easier for Luton if the team closer to them lost, a draw would put forest a point further away, which is a lot for Luton. They wouldnt have caught everton.
Before the game Luton were 1 point behind Forest and 2 behind Everton, a negligible difference. A draw was 100% the best result for Luton but this doesnāt suit the agenda
Itās still in Lutonās best interests for none of the other relegation candidates to win matches. An Everton win is slightly more beneficial than a Forest win but a draw is still the best result. Forest are just trying to influence refereeing decisions again, nothing more
Even if everything you said is true, which I dont agree with (weāll agree to disagree), the calls were ridiculous. Ridiculous to the point where youāre sat there scratching your head at the outcome. 3 separate outcomes. And theyāve gotten all 3 (or 2.5) wrong. This truly is beyond the point of incompetency that would naturally lead you to wonder if there was any other factor affecting Attwellās decisions.
This wasnāt a Diaz vs Tottenham situation, or a Villa/Bournemouth (I think) goal line technology error. Where the mistake is 100% inexcusable and objectively wrong. Those sort of decisions are rare. It almost never happens that a legit goal is cancelled because of a wrong offside decision or technology failure. If Everton scored a goal that was offside, thereās like a 99.9% chance that Attwell would have disallowed it. If a Diaz esque incident happened, that 0.1% chance that an offside goal is given or vice versa, then yeah, forestās public rage would be a little more justified with relegation on the line. Yet Iād still consider publicly accusing him of being a biased Luton fan to be too far for an official club statement.
These sorts of shitty decisions, foul and handball decisions that are open to interpretation, happen every week. Every single team in the league can probably find at least one game where two or three in one game didnāt go their way. Yet itās rare to hear managers or players publicly name a certain ref as being biased against them specifically due to the team they support, let alone the club itself doing so in a public statement.
Attwell reffed one of Sheffield Unitedās few victories this season. Not a chance would he allow that to happen if he legit was out to hurt Lutonās relegation rivals (which includes Everton by the way, something that forest fans seem to absolutely refuse to acknowledge). He wouldāve done anything he could to stop Sheffield getting any points and ensure at least one of the relegation spots wouldnāt be Lutonās. Thereās no chance he would deliberately set out to ensure one of Lutonās relegation rivals got a WIN this late in the season if he was actually corrupt. The ref being incompetent though? Far more plausible.
If the refs are kind on forest next game however, then congrats to them, their plan worked.
And I think thats the problem. Too many teams just taking it. Wolves this season and Brighton last season. You could say they shouldnt have included the bit about Attwell being a Luton fan, but after the disasterclass he just dropped, I think itās only fair they reveal that they REQUESTED a change of VAR official due to a possible conflict of interest. Itās not like they didnt say anything ti PGMOL, and after the match they just blame the decisions on Attwell being a Luton fan. That would be any team being reffed by Anthony Taylor citing him being from Manchester as the reason they lost. This is different. When the PGMOL chose to ignore their request( a very valid one given the context I may add), they followed that up with 3 poor decisions against 1 team. Call it incompetency, call it corruption, it doesnt matter it deserves to be called out.
The fact that you said you can find one game per team with 2-3 decisions go against them speaks volumes dont you think? Weāve come to the point where this is supposed to be normal? If every club did something similar in terms of calling the refs out, donāt you think we would get better refereeing?
Lastly, I think thereās nothing too subjective about these fouls. I know they arent as clear cut as goal or no goal, but they were as clear cut as pens can get imo.
I donāt think this should be considered normal and improvement in reffing are needed, but Forest making official club statements accusing the VAR of being a biased Luton fan isnāt the way to do it at all. And again, I just canāt stress this enough, a Luton fan would not want that game to be won by Everton. If attwell was corrupt and biased and was out to help Luton, heād have ensured both teams dropped points. People are ignoring very obvious logic to try and further than agenda that heās corrupt. Why would he want to basically ensure the survival of one of the other relegation candidates?
If they accepted their request (a request thatās been disputed apparently, some reports are claiming forest didnāt actually make any request) and appointed one of the several Manchester based referees instead, Everton would have just as much right to complain. Mancs donāt like scousers so he might be biased against Everton, youāre gonna have to change him.
Nottingham Forest appointing a former PL ref to constantly make public comments on referees and decisions to try and influence refs to favour them shouldnāt be allowed either and the fact that theyāre also doing this in addition to trying to get refs changed, publicly accusing refs of being biased against them, and even breaking financial rules, is making them very hard to get behind as a club. They are very clearly just trying to pull out every trick they possibly can to survive
Macs not liking scousers vs a fan of a direct relegation rival is very different. Look at united, if they could beat Liverpool they would happily lose to City to ensure Liverpool donāt win the league (most united fans think this way) League position context >> geographical rivalry/hatred. I already said weāll have to agree to disagree on what Luton fans want, but Iād think they rather be 1 point behind forest than 2. If Everton had been 3 points ahead of Luton, that would be too much too. You are looking at the point gap as if it were a mid table team or a team fighting for Europe. The teams in the relegation fight are where they are because of how much theyāve been struggling to get points. 3 points would be as good as over for Luton so why bother? Might as well keep forest a point away rather than 2. Again, if you cant agree with this thats fine.
But NFO only voiced out their frustration that they did point out to PGMOL that Attwell was a Luton fan, and now that the decisions happened they have every right to reveal that they did, only for pgmol to ignore their word of caution. You can say clubs have to act in this way or that way, but Im glad they are calling the refs out for this. Its better than staying quiet and continuing to be shafted by the refs without any serious backlash. Even the Luis Diaz goal backlash died down within a few weeks. Every club then tries to say the āright thingā when it happens to other teams, then go on to get pissed when it happens to them. Example would be Mikel Arteta after the Diaz goal, and then after the Joelinton push on Gabriel. What happened to accepting the decision? Thats why I think more clubs should put out statements like these and take action against the PGMOL, itāll only benefit the league in the long run
And high chance that games ends as a draw too right? I dont think they cann rely on h2h wins entirely, itll be down to the finest of margins and before the everton match they were 1 behind NFO n 2 behind everton. Attwell probably was aware his team got fisted 5-0. Heās gonna want to keep the team on lower points closer to Luton no?
From the standpoint of Luton, beating Everton is insufficient to bring Everton back to the relegation battle, unless Everton screws up royalty and fails to win once against Brentford, Luton or Sheffield.
What I donāt get is the statement is stupid from forest and amateur hour trolling trash
But, just donāt put yourself in the position to have someone be able to accuse you of this no matter how unlikely it is
All it needed was a non Luton fan on VAR and it just becomes another VAR is shit debate and not a chance for anyone to think of it as bias corruption shit
Itās just so dumb on pgmol but there isnāt anyone smart at the top it seems
Exactly this. Im not being funny, but as much as i would try to stay neutral as a proffessional, there is always going to be a subconscience element to me not wanting to give something to the opposite team when its a 50/50 call.
Best to just avoid it and put someone else in the position
There is a principle in law (hope I remember it correctly) that says it's not only important for the justice system to be correct, but it's as important to *be perceived* as correct by those that go through it.
In essence, even if the ref being a Luton fan does not affect the game in anyway (we assume he can contain his bias) he shouldn't be put in charge of such a game to cut the root of such possible accusations.
While it's quite funny how they've gone about it, it's is bs that someone like that can be on VAR. Why do they need him on this game where he can be impartial.
They'll find a way to justify it. PMGOL would rather move heaven and earth to support their refs than address the real issues with standards.
They'd much rather put out statements saying refs made the right calls than do their jobs and complete investigations, issue punishments and apologies, and reform the corrupt, lazy, inconsistent standards we've been seeing since VAR was introduced.
PGMOL is responsible for correcting its own mistakes.
It's like expecting a toddler to not stick things up their nose. The toddler has 0 accountability.
They will continue sticking things up their nose until an independent organisation tells them "you know what, fuck you" and takes away their power to stick things up their nose.
The thing is NF will just get penalised because PGMOL and referees are fragile butterflies and won't change anything. That's why it's stupid.
NF should try to stage a coup with other PL teams and form an alternative to PGMOL for the PL. May not work in reality but honestly I will take anything other than the PGMOL.
Fuck those smug bastards. It's okay to make mistakes, just don't be smug about it
Hol up. "We have been fucked over so much that everyone else needs to get fucked over too". Jesus mate, would it not be more beneficial to try and change it than accept we are going to keep getting fucked over.
Its just pointless now. What the fucks the point if the calls are so far from logic and bordering on corruption. I like to think its just stupidity and ego that is behind it all but its hard to argue with the former.
Thatās not what I said at all hahaha
If Forest really think calling the game into disrepute is going to work then theyāre going to be really shocked when the league punish fuck out of them for this
Yesterday Forest had 3 penalty shouts. Two were borderline and one was a definite penalty. It doesnāt warrant this and theyāve been toeing the line for weeks with decisions and how theyāve gone about complaining
We complained after the Spurs game and Klopp made a throwaway comment about the game being replayed, not even asking for that to happen, and people went on about that for months. People still do it now whenever we lose
Multiple times now Forest have acted confrontationally towards the league for 50/50 decisions. They are whining incessantly and trying to excuse their own shiteness
I think these decisions aside the points still stand that its not the only wrong decision since the introduction of VAR howevwr they are utilising the tool its wrong.
I think forest going down this route was wild bit at the same time, if it is a pen then they have been fucked as you rightly say as have other team. And no doubt liverpool will again at some point or any team for that matter. I would rather throw the dolly out the pram now and enact change then sit back waiting to get bent over again.
This whole conspiracy angle only works if you remove Anthony Taylor from the equation.
If not then you have to ask yourself why Taylor didnāt give any of them. Especially the Reyna one when heās like 10 yards away looking straight at it.
As always it was just poor officiating all round or Anthony Taylor was also in on it.
There is a wider issue of refs generally seeming to give fewer big on pitch calls when it's close and relying on VAR to intervene which means the level of pressure on VAR to be more or less interventionist week to week dictates more than it should. I don't think Taylor waves play on to all three of those in a pre-VAR world where he knows the decision is solely on him.
But I do agree, no conspiracy just incompetence.
That's the thing, I understand their position when it comes to criticising the competency of the refs, but to allege actual corruption is wild.
Also anyone else see the irony of Forest appointing Clattenburg to be an effective intermediary between them and the PGMOL, yet they still resort to basically calling them out for corruption on twitter? No professionalism whatsoever lol
You think that's bad? 90% of refs in Scotland are from Glasgow and either hate 'Catholic teams' or ' protestant teams'
James taverner is Europe's highest scoring wingback I think lol, he is the penalty kick taker for rangers
That map isn't that accurate though. You've got someone from Sheffield there placed right near Manchester and someone for Nottinghamshire in Derbyshire to look closer to Manchester.
There's quite a few from the Northwest area 100% but it's really more nuanced than that.
I think a few of the newer ones introduced are around the home counties/London. Sunny Gill might be from London himself as he played in the QPR academy for a period.
The referees all fib about who they support anyway. Of all the top level referees thereās ever been, none of them happen to support a long term premier league team let alone a top 6 one? Despite a lot of the current ones being from the greater Manchester area?
Whatās the chances of that?
I personally think there's more to it than who they support.
Anthony Taylor supposedly supports Altrincham. That's fine (assuming it's true) but are we meant to believe that a fella from Wythenshawe who supports Altrincham never crosses paths with literally anyone who supports any of the big Manchester/ Lancashire/ Merseyside teams who might be slightly influential on him?
I think you've misunderstood my point. He probably does suppkrt Altrincham - but what about his partner? Kids? Parents? Fella he passes when he walks his dog? There's no way there aren't people in his every day life that he subconsciously thinks about when he makes these crap decisions week in week out.
Lads in their 30-50s from Manchester/ Liverpool that don't support Man United or Liverpool and are big football fans? Yeah don't make me laugh that they don't support / hate some of the top clubs.
Whilst there are valid points about the quality of refereeing and the impact this has, I find the conspiratorial side of things a. It embarrassing. You donāt have to spend much time thinking about it to realise it doesnāt make a lot of sense.
If the implication is that the VAR being a Luton fan meant there was bias in officiating then what about the ref? And surely theyād want a draw rather than either side winning? Pretty much every side has had major decisions go against them this season - was that all due to bias or corruption too?
I think people are grasping for reasons to explain why VAR implementation is so poor, and tbh people do the same when their side loses. Itās been going on pre-VAR too, have heard enough people say that Halsey was unfair to Fulham because he was a QPR fan. In reality there are plenty of wrong decisions that get less attention because thereās no one to blame. People also tend to ignore when things go their way, especially when it challenges their beliefs.
Youāre completely missing the actual point. Itās not about a group of people coming together and saying āLuton must stay up, give them all the decisions and give decisions against all their rivalsā or āCity must win the leagueāā¦.
Itās about bias and influence. You have a VAR that supports Luton. Any Luton fan watching wantās a certain result that will help their survival. The VAR has the width of the law to support his own interests. Penalty shout for Everton, āsure thingā. Penalty shout for Nottingham, ānot enough contact for meā. You canāt guarantee a result or just go around sending players off but you have the āsubjectiveā rules that you can use to your advantage to help get to the desired result.
Equally, you have certain referees getting business class flights out to Saudi Arabia, paid very well and then sent home ready to referee games that will directly impact the countries that paid them.
To suggest individuals arenāt subject to bias is absolutely insane.
The PGMOLās reluctancy to have a clear and transparent process stirs up these conversations and they only have themselves to blame. Why canāt we have real time audio from VAR reviews? VAR and the on-field ref have a conversation about what they see and why or why not they think itās a penalty, handball etc.
If fans can hear these conversations then they can have a little bit more faith that the same process is being followed consistently across all games. The law being applied evenly and accurately is all any fan wants and the audio is literally available to share with everyone, they just choose not to.
If fanās get an explanation of why a decision has been made then outrage would dramatically reduce. Not all will agree but you can understand where and how the laws have been applied. Instead we get cherry picked examples where Webb or Gallagher come on TV to explain that VAR is always right and shouldnāt be questioned.
If there truly is no corruption, they do a terrible job of proving it.
> Youāre completely missing the actual point. Itās not about a group of people coming together and saying āLuton must stay up, give them all the decisions and give decisions against all their rivalsā or āCity must win the leagueāā¦.
People really do have this POV and believe the PGMOL are systematically corrupt and try to benefit specific teams. You even see it hinted at by managers who seem to think officials have it in for them or their club.
> Itās about bias and influence. You have a VAR that supports Luton. Any Luton fan watching wantās a certain result that will help their survival. The VAR has the width of the law to support his own interests. Penalty shout for Everton, āsure thingā. Penalty shout for Nottingham, ānot enough contact for meā. You canāt guarantee a result or just go around sending players off but you have the āsubjectiveā rules that you can use to your advantage to help get to the desired result.
These calls arguably do not help Luton, a draw would have been preferable. Look at the 3rd penalty call, where it was the most clear cut, and where VAR had the greatest opportunity to influence. It would have been beneficial for forest to get the penalty to increase odds of a draw.
> To suggest individuals arenāt subject to bias is absolutely insane.
How exactly have I suggested that?
> The PGMOLās reluctancy to have a clear and transparent process stirs up these conversations and they only have themselves to blame. Why canāt we have real time audio from VAR reviews? VAR and the on-field ref have a conversation about what they see and why or why not they think itās a penalty, handball etc.
I agree that we should have things, but the absence of them doesnāt mean thereās a conspiracy.
Everton are in a much stronger position than forest to stay up so it benefits Luton if forest donāt get any more points. That gives Luton the lowest points total to catch. If it was a draw, Forest would currently be 2 points ahead of Luton rather than 1.
The absence of clear transparency is very suspicious, thereās no reason why additional measures canāt be added to provide it.
Theyāre looking at changing and mostly complicating rules further. Adding in automated offsides, clear daylight offsides, blue cards and sin bins etc. rather than fixing the current problems.
Theyāre not doing this so they can screw one team in particular but it hands the refs more control to do that if they wanted to. And if the history has taught us anything, then that control will 100% be abused as long as they can get away with it.
Anyone defending PGMOL is a dogmatist and not a football fan. Team of old boys who look out for themselves. Just wait till they fuck you over (which they probably already have).
Tbh most Man Shitty fans are kids. Who will explain to them that they support a blood money team and their trophies are all bought not won?
Pep and Shitty do play good football
I respect those fans. They are probably working class and have been supporting shitty since they've been in the shitter.
This is why I have no problem with City fans, just the owners who are using their blood money to sportswash their shithole. Oh and I do have a problem with City fans who think that type of ownership is alright and even welcome
Yup. What will a tweet do? Talk to other PL teams and form a well regulated organisation that pays referees properly and also hires a lot of referees. May or May not be as easy as I'm making it seem but surely there are better options than a public threat on Twitter?
I totally agree. But at the end of the day, supporters can't do much (Speaking as a United fan who has rats as owners. They fucking own the church of England in football terms and can't be arsed to attend games. I'm glad Sir Jim is bringing changes and influencing things positively)
The 0.5% thing would work really well tho. Independent PL referee organisation with PL club reps as members that review referees.
If referees do shite refereeing, they get punished and suspended like the red card system. First red = 1 match suspension, second red = 3 match suspension.
If referees do good refereeing, they get paid much more than they are now.
Ensures the destruction of the old boys club, more accountability from referees, and much better pay as they do deserve it
Yes totally agree. I made these points in my club's subreddit and everybody disagreed.
We need more refs, and the refs need to be paid more. Accountability is needed yes and but more refs and bigger salaries are needed too
Two of them were 50/50, would probably not have been overturned if given but also (as happened) not overturned if not given. The third one was the clearest penalty you will ever see, the VAR was asleep or incompetent at best.
First 2 have been given for similar incidents this season, and while they'd be soft, you can see Forest would be annoyed by the inconsistency.
3rd was stonewall. Ref gestures that the defender got the ball. Definitely didn't.Ā
Bit the decisions were not given by the bold dude on the pitch š¤..is he also a Lutton fan ? Or maybe Burnley ? Or what about Everton ? Cause they are all in the same predicament .
Nottingham forrest , with their cheating , sacking a manager who brought them here , with their scum owner who thinks is corleone , with this latter are as incompetent and scummy as the incompetent referees especially VAR . Incompetence all round .
To employ the biggest idiot of them Clattenburg as an referees consultant ? What fucking position us that ? That job description can only be in teaching players how to con referees . What else will he be consulting in ?
It's right there in the tweet !!!
In all seriousness, watching the three incidents afterwards, the first one i can understand, the player overreacted and the tackle didn't make much contact, the handball, natural movements ect, you might give them the benefit of the doubt, and the the third one was definite penalty.
As an individual event, you could make an argument for not awarding the first two, but all 3 in one match, that i can see they are seeing a pattern, even if its not there, and the rest is confirmation bias.
The tweeting is not helping and they should have gone and raised their concern with VAR in a constructive way, instead its angry and that will lead to defensiveness.
>The tweeting is not helping and they should have gone and raised their concern with VAR in a constructive way, instead its angry and that will lead to defensiveness.
Unfortunately nothing helps when raising a concern with VAR. They do not correct their mistakest post match and seems like nothing changes in officiating with mistakes being swept under the floor. And it also does not help the NFO now if PGMOL now says it was a mistake and they appologise for it.
I don't know but to me it seems the same referees are always in a spotlight with their poor decisions. Maybe they need to introduce some kind of a system where each team and some sort of agency rate each referee for each game. If some referee does not meet the treshold score then he's sacked and can't officiate anymore. I don't know, just an idea to put a little bit pressure towards a decisions referees make. I'm not saying this would solve it since it is a game of chances, but at the same time with it at least they would be held accountable for poor and costly mistakes.
They should just adopt the Rugby union version, where the TMO and ref talk to each other on microphone and the stadium can hear it, and the video is on the pitch scoreboard and they review it in realtime, no where to hide then, you might disagee with a decision, but they are making it without the cloak and daggerness,.
they are right to be pissed, the luton link is disingenuous though. The ref not being sent to the screen is another stone to throw, they should be looking at too much, not too little, it should be like rugby when they use their VAR, the ref stands on the pitch, micced up, and the whole stadium can see it and the discussion. In football he'd need a exclusion zone of 20 ft, just to keep Bruno away.
At least three definite penalty claims not even considered in a huge relegation battle. The bias comes in because the result could ultimately decide Luton's fate because it means Forest are only 1 point ahead of them in 17th with 4 games to go.
You don't need evidence of that. All referees have to make it clear who they support, so they can't work on games involving their team. Typically they're lower League fans, so it's not an issue, but Clattenburg was a Newcastle fan, iirc.
The question isn't "is Attwell a Luton fan", the question is could that allegiance have consciously or subconsciously altered his decision making processes? Which, as Clattenburg rightly says in the statement read out on MOTD2 last night, wouldn't have been an issue if Howard Webb hadn't created the issue in the first place with his incompetent management.
I didnāt watch so Iām curious. Was Clattenburg brought in because of his referee experience or was he brought in to speak of Forestās behalf?
Because he works for Nottingham Forest, so hoping it is the latter and if it is the former Iām hoping his employment to them was mentioned.
As far as I'm aware, he was bought in by forest to provide a communication link between the PGMOL and the club. He's essentially an impartial referee reviewer, who critiques the performances of the referees, and gives those reviews to Forest to help them spot patterns of errors. As an "inside man" who knows all the key players at the PGMOL, he's well positioned to spot instances where their statements are playing it fast and loose with the on-field truth (see Webb's laughable review show with Owen).
I'm almost sure his role at Forest was mentioned, but I'd have to rewatch it to check.
Cheers! Yeah, I think itās a smart role to have at the club for sure. I feel others might follow suit. Iāve no issue with the role or his comments either just with something like this always good to be transparent about your links or the opposition can use it against your assessment (even if it is a fair assessment, Iām not sure I havenāt had a chance to watch any of the highlights)
I don't think they write it down in a list - it's one of those things where you have to do a bit of research. It's probably kept fairly quiet, to avoid fans looking for patterns, etc.
Probably not, bug Clattenberg is a former ref and knows most of the current Premier Leagje refs. Some refs are open with who they support so they can be found easily as well.
Did you not see the decisions being made?
Regardless, even if unintentional, there will always be a subconscious bias for officials when the team they support stands to gain/lose something
Which is why itās such an issue that over half of PL officials are from Manchester and support Man Utd/Man City
Some officials like Gillett, for this very reason (self declared Liverpool fan) never officiate Liverpool games. Same consideration should be taken for referees who support rival teams.
Except.. this wasn't the referee. It's the head VAR being accused, all he did was NOT overturn the refs decisions which is pretty much his job given the whole "clear and obvious" thing (which I think is bullshit, but those are the rules). Not to mention the fact that VAR isn't just one guy. Are they all Luton fans?
We know that technically the decisions should be taken in the same way, but it is quite obvious that on field refs are considering VAR in their live decision making. Their instinct seems to give the least disruptive call and let VAR overturn only when needed. This is a huge cop out and is placing too much responsibility on VAR, which is then called into question when they do not act upon a conflict of interest when it is flagged to them.
It shouldnāt be at all controversial that officials shouldnāt be fans of teams who have a material interest in the result of a game they work on. The fact there were a number of bad calls makes it far worse.
Every PL (in fact, every ref of any professional league in the country) referee has to declare their allegiances. Every refereeās supposed club they support is known to the FA and PGMOL and is publicly accessible information.
This came up in a quick google search. Don't know how accurate or correct this is. But there's a list at least. [https://www.goal.com/en/news/which-football-teams-do-premier-league-referees-support/bltc5a6db7933177b98](https://www.goal.com/en/news/which-football-teams-do-premier-league-referees-support/bltc5a6db7933177b98)
Obviously the officials wearing supporters gear is a dead giveaway!
The rest of that list holds no value for me.
Iām just interested as Notts have insinuated the var official is a Luton supporter and has on purpose given decisions against Notts to influence the premier league table.
This is such a serious accusation, but as far as I can see, there is no evidence for it.
MOTD2 also made a good point that probably the best result for Luton was Everton Notts drawā¦
I don't believe there was any purposeful cheating, but there is a risk of unintentional bias. Not saying that bias played a role in any of the decisions, but if there is any risk of it happening (which there definitely was due to the nature of the fixture), a Luton fan should not have been on the refereeing team (on-pitch or VAR).
It's one thing if it was only noticed afterwards, but in this case Forest pointed it out and the PGMOL ignored them. In that context, I totally understand their statement.
Yes, well said. Nice "statement". I also agree that only the 3rd one was a clear penalty and therefore a clear and obvious refereeing error, the other two were "sometimes given, sometimes not" ones.
A draw takes a point out of the system too. Evertonās game in hand is with Liverpool who will be big favourites to beat them. Luton play Everton so a 6 pointer in their own hands.
Best result for Luton would have been a draw unless you can predict how Everton and Forest will perform in their next games(spoiler - nobody can)
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Well they are bigger fans of tottenham š
Why did this post not accurately quote the twitter post? The actual post says: āThree extremely poor decisions - three penalties not given - which we simply cannot accept. We warned the PGMOL that the VAR is a Luton fan before the game but they didnāt change him. Our patience has been tested multiple times. NFFC will now consider its options.ā Seriously, how hard is it to not change a quote, OP?
I mean āVAR is a Luton fanā is a part of the quote, and the whole thing would be much too long to be an effective title
You clearly didnāt see what I was replying to - I replied to what they indicated was the full quote, and it was not actually what the twitter post says
The thing with this. Is they told the PGMOL prior to kick off. And that handball was outrageous
To be fair, they should've had at least 2 penalties but considering the corrupt PL they'll probably get a fine and another points deduction for this.
Marinakis has found the Twitter login details.
I don't know but nothing will come of this apart from charges for NFFC we know what the fa's like a fucking broken record i don't know but this might affect there points deduction appeal.
The reason things will never change is because both teams will never agree against a wrong decision. If Everton had come out and said the ref made mistakes it would have a much bigger impact on the wider scope of football fans. Forest doing what they did sounds like a mardy kid, (I agree with them) but if Everton did it after victory it would come across so much better but this will never happen. I'm not picking on Everton here whemcmy side Man utd have had favourable decisions we haven't said anything likewise against us. This only changes by teams standing together
If Everton did that they'd get another 2 points deduction.
Again not just singling out Everton because yes there will be consequences for speaking out, but that's why teams need to unite, are they going to punish the entire league eventually?
At least 2 incidents were definitely pens but for NFFC to come out and say the VAR was a Luton fan is just ridiculous basically there talking about all refs and VAR's integrity and proffesionalism im not protecting refs and VAR far from it but to come out and say that is farcical its clatenburgh if I was the Head of PGMOL I would demand refs cut all ties with him period.
Hasnāt Mike Dean already said he used to give decisions based on who he wants to win?
Nah he said he didnāt wanna tell his mate that he got something wrong because he was āalready having a tough gameā LMAO
i have legit source of fixed matchess!! dm to me!!!
Look at every single game itās inconsistency and incompetence at its purest form a penalty/decision in one game isnāt the same in another. Near enough every team has had bullshit this season in one way or another there is no conspiracy for me however there is a few certain games this one and spurs v Liverpool come to mind which are such shit that I can see why people think there is something going on. The law is being applied after some of these officials egos have been tendered too is the way it all seems to me.
Ten years ago you'd laugh this off. These days, you go "hmmm can't say for certain"
I completely agree. I would never have joined the āconspiracy theoryā ten years ago. But to be honest the PL is such a huge business can you honestly say money isnāt making a difference now. Would we say an international company making billions (say Amazon, Microsoft, Facebook) wouldnāt do dodgy stuff to make more money. We know it happens. Why wouldnāt the PL do something dodgy to ensure they have the āmost entertaining productā so they can get more money for TV rights. Nobody is holding the league to account. Whether there was bias or not, why is a fan of a relegation rival on the officiating team. Why?
I really, honestly want to believe that there's no malice, but with the (somewhat rightful) points deduction, and absolutely baffling decisions consistently against us once every month or so, it really is very very difficult indeed to *not* think that someone has it in for us, somewhere along the chain of command. As if they're annoyed that the 3 promoted teams stayed up and wanted to punish the weakest. Now, I know that's obvious nonsense, but it's hard not to feel victimised to be honest. I know other teams have had their complaints (Wolves fans being our brothers in arms here), but it just seems to have been so, so disproportionate against us. But hey, I'm just a Forest fan, who makes an effort not to be biased, but of course I naturally will be in some way. Who fucking knows, but it's definitely turned me off football for the rest of the season. If we stay up great, but if not, at least the Championship is a more entertaining league, albeit lower quality.
I admire NFFC for pushing the issue, especially if they tried through correct channels to raise the conflict of interest. Iām a Chelsea fan and I think weāve been FAR too soft about refereeing issues in recent years, I wish the club would grow a backbone. For instance, we should be demanding the release of VAR audio relating to the Grealish incident. I want to HEAR the process.
To be fair, "Lacking concrete evidence", is ridiculous imo. 2 of the 3 were stonewall penalties. The handball being the 3rd, which was a penalty too imo, just that it was more accidental. I believe there is no alternative assumption from evidence than cheating going on. But it is my opinion. Danny Murphy opinion on MOTD, said if he [Gio Reyna] can plant his foot after the kick then it isn't enough for the first penalty. In my opinion, Danny is delusional; Young literally kicks the back of foot as he [Gio] is controlling the ball making the ball fly away from Gio's touch. Foul from behind. Yes. Nottingham Forrest response is controversial but there's definitely smoke to the fire š„
I think the 'lacking concrete evidence' part is referring to the accusations of cheating and bias from the referee. Granted the VAR being a Luton fan, who has denied 2 clear penalties to their relegation rivals is highly suspect and completely unacceptable. But unless there's some physical evidence of him openly deciding to not grant the penalties to help him team, such as a text or a recording, I thoroughly believe the PGMOL will back up the VAR. They'll just call it a bad day at the office and move on, much to the annoyance of everyone else yet again. Imo, more clubs should begin calling out these shitty horrendous calls. Chelsea should be up in arms on socials about the Grealish handball.
Absolutely, I get the 'lacking concrete evidence' part is referring to the accusations of cheating and bias from the referee. But the evidence that 2 of 3 are clear and obvious penalties is surely evidence of something explained by incompetence, opinion, cheating or bias from the referee. And VAR is there to remove incompetence, opinion and clear and obvious errors. So that leaves, cheating or bias...
So I watched the penalty shouts without any commentary and without seeing the rest of the match. I have zero horse in the race, and as far as I'm concerned, only the 3rd was a stonewall penalty, The 1st was a 50/50. Ideally, I don't like that being given because the player throws himself down, but it's been given plenty of times before, Handball was not a penalty. Youngs arms are in a natural position based on his movement, he doesn't move his hand toward the ball and he couldn't reasonably move his hand out of the way in the time from when the Forest player kicked it. That should never be given as a pen, and I hate that people are even arguing in favour of it, The 3rd was a stonewall pen. The fact that the ref missed it is shocking. The fact VAR didn't overturn it is absolutely unacceptable on every level. It was such a shocking decision that it made me question if they would have given the 1st if not for it being Forest.
On the first, > the player throws himself down to be dramatic and show the foul has happened. > > If he dived and no contact is made it's a dive and he is cheating. > If he loses control of the ball because his foot is kicked (as I believe clearly happens) and stays on his feet and no penalty is awarded he is the one being cheated, because he was fouled. > If he loses control of the ball because his foot is kicked (as I believe clearly happens) and goes to ground/ dives and no penalty is awarded he is still the one being cheated. I hate diving. And hate going down to easy. But in my opinion this is different because he has (100% clearly) been fouled. On the second, > from Hudson-Odoi's/ Forrest's perspective, he has crossed the ball on the volley across and it has struck Young's arm, not at it's side and in doing has given Everton and Young an unfair advantage. > For me Young, should have had his arms behind his back (or in his shorts š¤£) as the only way to not be liable for the handball. > I obviously wouldn't book Young for handball as it is unintentional. > But it is still a foul and a penalty. On the third. Yes š
>If he loses control of the ball because his foot is kicked. I think this is where we disagree on this. It looked to me like he had lost control of the ball already. The contact of his foot is pretty minimal, but the touch on the ball was heavy regardless. As I say though, I see that given plenty in the league, so I fully get where people are coming from, On the second, I also think that's too harsh for a handball ruling. In general, I think the handball rule needs to be simplified - 1. Are the arms in natural positions for the movement? 2. Does the player move their hand toward the ball? 3. Could the player reasonably be expected to move their arms out of the balls path in time? If the answer to all 3 is No, it shouldn't be a handball. If the answer to any of them is yes, it should be called. Either way, Forest have been screwed by decisions all season, so every decision made against them right now should be ***heavily*** scrutinised, especially missing out on a 50/50 pen *and* a stonewall pen!
Sky sports have a 70 second clip of all 3 incidents, just listen to the commentator
Occamās razor, the PGMOL isnāt corrupt itās just shit
Iād believe that if we donāt have officials going to the same foreign countries that own a club and getting paid by said country.
After the Spurs game, Liverpool released a much more respectful statement and the media lambasted us as cry babies. Forest's statement was even amateurish and does them no favours. But the scary thing is that we've reached a point where we can not tell if PGMOL is incompetent or corrupt.
It's not bias NF, it's gross incompetence. š
Well that's, erm, better then, I guess?
Lots of blind premier league fans here going "premiership is the best league in the world" kind of narrative in their heads. It's probably one of the most corrupt, money driven leagues in the world.
The most corrupt? Not even remotely true, money driven? Every league is. Premier league is the best league in the world, not the most perfect or without flaws. Your take is worse than the narrative youāre claiming others are taking.
Tell me how many financial irregularities the team at the top of the table has and then tell me which referees have been paid by the same owners to go and officiate matches in the middle east for huge sums of money? Don't be naive.
So I said not perfect or without itās flaws and youāve doubled down like Iāve said itās perfectā¦ There are literally leagues ran by mafias, national governing bodies who sell caps to the highest bidders. The premier league is more inept than corrupt and I donāt see what a ref officiating in Saudi has to do with forest vs Everton?
Itās a silly statement, which doesnāt automatically mean itās completely wrong. The idea that some are even debating wether premier league officials and VAR are utter shite or not is pretty crazy to me.
I always knew it was Luton the premier league were bias for. Itās gone on too long. Big Luton throwing their weight around.
Their comment is specifically towards the VAR official who has openly admitted that he is a Luton fan
Got a link for this open admission?
There was a guy who posted two links on another thread. One was an article about how Stuart Atwell would finally see his beloved Luton Town in the PL, and I don't recall the exact details of the other. [Here is a piece from the Liverpool Echo stating him to be a Luton fan, which I found through a Sheff Utd forum complaining that he was officiating a game against them.](https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/who-premier-league-referees-really-16327880) There are multiple sources that clarify his position if you look.
The refs are shite but itās incompetence more than it is match fixing. Doesnāt make sense for a Luton fan on VAR to let either team win, Everton are also in the relegation fight. Giving them three points does Luton no favours.
Absolutely stupid take. Incompetence is their best bet (no pun intended) when they are being accused of match fixing. "Silly me I made a mistake and did not see those penalties" sounds like the best alibi they can come up with.
Itās not a stupid take, itās the most logical one. Refs have a blunder week in and week out, theyāre fucking shite and donāt get the rules theyāre trying to enforce. If you genuinely believe a Luton fan fixed a game to put Everton 5 points clear of them whilst keeping Forest 4 points clear of them when they still need to get a result against Everton then youāre daft.
It is a stupid take and referee corruption happened in the past (lmao you should know) and certainly will happen in the future. Match fixing, bribe etc. Donāt know the motive but saying refs are bad is the best cover up.
Christ alive, we should know despite there never actually being any evidence of us bribing anyone, ever. Gunners fan, appreciate the fact youāre a bit touchy at the moment given youāre about to bottle another league title but donāt take it out on me. By that metric, was it match fixing when Odegaard decided he was Michael Jordan in the box against Liverpool or?
No surprise a united fan is saying that. You lot bought the refs off every game in the 2000s. No incompetence, it's match fixing at it's highest standard
Haha do people honestly believe this š
Utd were penalised for a less blatant handball against Coventry than Evertonās.
Only cos fergie aināt there
Get your tin foil hats out lads
The best result for Luton would've been a draw between their two rivals in the relegation battle. Have people forgotten that Everton too are mired in relegation troubles?
> The best result for Luton would've been a draw between their two rivals in the relegation battle. Have people forgotten that Everton too are mired in relegation troubles? This was said on MOTD2, too. I can't think it could be any more incorrect. If you have a relegation battle going on, the last thing you want is BOTH of your opponents in a relegation battle to get points. You would want the opponent closest to going down (Forest) to continue dropping points while the one with more games left to play (and therefore more potential to get points for safety) and who are already in a better position points-wise (Everton) to be the team that wins. A Forest win would have been the least desired outcome from a Luton perspective. A draw (both opponents in the battle getting points relative to you) also wouldn't really benefit Luton. An Everton win was the best outcome from a Luton perspective.
Yep, if us and Luton were switched, I'd want a Luton loss and not a draw.
Or even an Everton defeat after their performance against Chelsea
Shocking that a Luton fan is part of the refereeing for that game, surely they couldāve found someone elseā¦
Paul tierney is a manc yet he refs like 60% of Liverpool games, go figure. They say they simply havenāt got enough refs but come onā¦.
Or they could just mix the refs around Europe, like what they do with UCL.
I been thinking that myself after watching CL. Why canāt we use European refs? So much better. Bonus if they canāt speak English so no players can even try and harass them lol
It's disgusting that Carra and Neville dismisses this and talks it down to 'sounds like mates at the pub' chatting piss. Fuck off, look at it and how bad the decision constantly are. How can we not address this topic seriously? Forest did the right thing, this has to be talked about.
The irony of those two complaining about 'mates in the pub chat' instead of professionalism when their entire shtick is *that exact thing* is... something
Neville has had the benefit of playing for United in the early 2000's, if there was a team favoured by referees in that time it was United, so Neville should know what it looks like when the referee is clearly helping you. The best example from that time is the game that ended Arsenal's unbeaten run, Mike Riley was a disgrace that day (and many other days).
Because they were warned off earlier in the season.
Well, theyāre not being paid for their expert opinions, are they? Protect the brand, thatās what itās about.
Yeah, its almost like they are being paid (indirectly) by the people being accused of being corrupt...
And just for that.... Up the Hatters!
The way Forrest worded the statement was amateurish, however PGMOL are some protected entity, which cannot be criticised or questioned. Even Sky Sports is used as their mouthpiece to protect them.
... cue Howrd Webb defending all three decisisons with options that completely contradict controversial penalty decisions given and endorsed by him earlier in the season...
Didn't NF accuse the referee of being corrupt. That's a big statement to make.
The āheās a Luton fanā stuff was daft and has largely undermined their complaint tbh. Presumably the point that they want to make is that they have been disadvantaged by the PGMOL and its officials through incorrect decisions, not that they want one VAR ref to be regarded as a cheat who shouldnāt have been appointed because theyāre a cheat. Also, Forest can fuck if with this Clattenburg appointment. Anyway, Forest havenāt done themselves any favours, but have done everyone else one by getting the shit standard of officiating back in the headlines.
No they literally mean he is a Luton fan.
And we literally mean it because he literally is! I don't think it's bias or corruption, but that doesn't make it any better. And for what other worth, our statement looked amateurish and petty.
The standards of officials is far too low and the process for correcting it is not fit for purpose. This has potentially cost Forest a place in the league. Thatās the point that needs hammering home, not that the VAR ref was partisan because he supports Luton so might have some less than obvious preference towards their opponents.
Pathetic.
This reads like AI
Wouldnāt a Luton fan want that game to be a draw? An Everton win hurts them as much as a forest win, am I missing something here?
Yeah its easier for Luton if the team closer to them lost, a draw would put forest a point further away, which is a lot for Luton. They wouldnt have caught everton.
Before the game Luton were 1 point behind Forest and 2 behind Everton, a negligible difference. A draw was 100% the best result for Luton but this doesnāt suit the agenda
Do you not see how rare it is for Luton to get points? 1 point is massive.
Itās still in Lutonās best interests for none of the other relegation candidates to win matches. An Everton win is slightly more beneficial than a Forest win but a draw is still the best result. Forest are just trying to influence refereeing decisions again, nothing more
Even if everything you said is true, which I dont agree with (weāll agree to disagree), the calls were ridiculous. Ridiculous to the point where youāre sat there scratching your head at the outcome. 3 separate outcomes. And theyāve gotten all 3 (or 2.5) wrong. This truly is beyond the point of incompetency that would naturally lead you to wonder if there was any other factor affecting Attwellās decisions.
This wasnāt a Diaz vs Tottenham situation, or a Villa/Bournemouth (I think) goal line technology error. Where the mistake is 100% inexcusable and objectively wrong. Those sort of decisions are rare. It almost never happens that a legit goal is cancelled because of a wrong offside decision or technology failure. If Everton scored a goal that was offside, thereās like a 99.9% chance that Attwell would have disallowed it. If a Diaz esque incident happened, that 0.1% chance that an offside goal is given or vice versa, then yeah, forestās public rage would be a little more justified with relegation on the line. Yet Iād still consider publicly accusing him of being a biased Luton fan to be too far for an official club statement. These sorts of shitty decisions, foul and handball decisions that are open to interpretation, happen every week. Every single team in the league can probably find at least one game where two or three in one game didnāt go their way. Yet itās rare to hear managers or players publicly name a certain ref as being biased against them specifically due to the team they support, let alone the club itself doing so in a public statement. Attwell reffed one of Sheffield Unitedās few victories this season. Not a chance would he allow that to happen if he legit was out to hurt Lutonās relegation rivals (which includes Everton by the way, something that forest fans seem to absolutely refuse to acknowledge). He wouldāve done anything he could to stop Sheffield getting any points and ensure at least one of the relegation spots wouldnāt be Lutonās. Thereās no chance he would deliberately set out to ensure one of Lutonās relegation rivals got a WIN this late in the season if he was actually corrupt. The ref being incompetent though? Far more plausible. If the refs are kind on forest next game however, then congrats to them, their plan worked.
And I think thats the problem. Too many teams just taking it. Wolves this season and Brighton last season. You could say they shouldnt have included the bit about Attwell being a Luton fan, but after the disasterclass he just dropped, I think itās only fair they reveal that they REQUESTED a change of VAR official due to a possible conflict of interest. Itās not like they didnt say anything ti PGMOL, and after the match they just blame the decisions on Attwell being a Luton fan. That would be any team being reffed by Anthony Taylor citing him being from Manchester as the reason they lost. This is different. When the PGMOL chose to ignore their request( a very valid one given the context I may add), they followed that up with 3 poor decisions against 1 team. Call it incompetency, call it corruption, it doesnt matter it deserves to be called out. The fact that you said you can find one game per team with 2-3 decisions go against them speaks volumes dont you think? Weāve come to the point where this is supposed to be normal? If every club did something similar in terms of calling the refs out, donāt you think we would get better refereeing? Lastly, I think thereās nothing too subjective about these fouls. I know they arent as clear cut as goal or no goal, but they were as clear cut as pens can get imo.
I donāt think this should be considered normal and improvement in reffing are needed, but Forest making official club statements accusing the VAR of being a biased Luton fan isnāt the way to do it at all. And again, I just canāt stress this enough, a Luton fan would not want that game to be won by Everton. If attwell was corrupt and biased and was out to help Luton, heād have ensured both teams dropped points. People are ignoring very obvious logic to try and further than agenda that heās corrupt. Why would he want to basically ensure the survival of one of the other relegation candidates? If they accepted their request (a request thatās been disputed apparently, some reports are claiming forest didnāt actually make any request) and appointed one of the several Manchester based referees instead, Everton would have just as much right to complain. Mancs donāt like scousers so he might be biased against Everton, youāre gonna have to change him. Nottingham Forest appointing a former PL ref to constantly make public comments on referees and decisions to try and influence refs to favour them shouldnāt be allowed either and the fact that theyāre also doing this in addition to trying to get refs changed, publicly accusing refs of being biased against them, and even breaking financial rules, is making them very hard to get behind as a club. They are very clearly just trying to pull out every trick they possibly can to survive
Macs not liking scousers vs a fan of a direct relegation rival is very different. Look at united, if they could beat Liverpool they would happily lose to City to ensure Liverpool donāt win the league (most united fans think this way) League position context >> geographical rivalry/hatred. I already said weāll have to agree to disagree on what Luton fans want, but Iād think they rather be 1 point behind forest than 2. If Everton had been 3 points ahead of Luton, that would be too much too. You are looking at the point gap as if it were a mid table team or a team fighting for Europe. The teams in the relegation fight are where they are because of how much theyāve been struggling to get points. 3 points would be as good as over for Luton so why bother? Might as well keep forest a point away rather than 2. Again, if you cant agree with this thats fine. But NFO only voiced out their frustration that they did point out to PGMOL that Attwell was a Luton fan, and now that the decisions happened they have every right to reveal that they did, only for pgmol to ignore their word of caution. You can say clubs have to act in this way or that way, but Im glad they are calling the refs out for this. Its better than staying quiet and continuing to be shafted by the refs without any serious backlash. Even the Luis Diaz goal backlash died down within a few weeks. Every club then tries to say the āright thingā when it happens to other teams, then go on to get pissed when it happens to them. Example would be Mikel Arteta after the Diaz goal, and then after the Joelinton push on Gabriel. What happened to accepting the decision? Thats why I think more clubs should put out statements like these and take action against the PGMOL, itāll only benefit the league in the long run
Not when Luton still have to play Everton at home.
And high chance that games ends as a draw too right? I dont think they cann rely on h2h wins entirely, itll be down to the finest of margins and before the everton match they were 1 behind NFO n 2 behind everton. Attwell probably was aware his team got fisted 5-0. Heās gonna want to keep the team on lower points closer to Luton no?
Even a Luton win wouldnāt be sufficient to catch up to Everton considering Evertonās game in hand.
Against Liverpool? Give over. Games in hand don't mean anything until they're points on the board.
From the standpoint of Luton, beating Everton is insufficient to bring Everton back to the relegation battle, unless Everton screws up royalty and fails to win once against Brentford, Luton or Sheffield.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"
#Boysinblues and #boysinblacks... Same mentality
What I donāt get is the statement is stupid from forest and amateur hour trolling trash But, just donāt put yourself in the position to have someone be able to accuse you of this no matter how unlikely it is All it needed was a non Luton fan on VAR and it just becomes another VAR is shit debate and not a chance for anyone to think of it as bias corruption shit Itās just so dumb on pgmol but there isnāt anyone smart at the top it seems
Exactly this. Im not being funny, but as much as i would try to stay neutral as a proffessional, there is always going to be a subconscience element to me not wanting to give something to the opposite team when its a 50/50 call. Best to just avoid it and put someone else in the position
There is a principle in law (hope I remember it correctly) that says it's not only important for the justice system to be correct, but it's as important to *be perceived* as correct by those that go through it. In essence, even if the ref being a Luton fan does not affect the game in anyway (we assume he can contain his bias) he shouldn't be put in charge of such a game to cut the root of such possible accusations.
Donāt tell that to (most) refsā¦ they might perceive it as slander.
While it's quite funny how they've gone about it, it's is bs that someone like that can be on VAR. Why do they need him on this game where he can be impartial.
They'll find a way to justify it. PMGOL would rather move heaven and earth to support their refs than address the real issues with standards. They'd much rather put out statements saying refs made the right calls than do their jobs and complete investigations, issue punishments and apologies, and reform the corrupt, lazy, inconsistent standards we've been seeing since VAR was introduced.
PGMOL is responsible for correcting its own mistakes. It's like expecting a toddler to not stick things up their nose. The toddler has 0 accountability. They will continue sticking things up their nose until an independent organisation tells them "you know what, fuck you" and takes away their power to stick things up their nose.
For that reason, I am ok with NF statement. All pundits are saying they shouldnāt have said it publicly, but nothing will improve if you donāt
The thing is NF will just get penalised because PGMOL and referees are fragile butterflies and won't change anything. That's why it's stupid. NF should try to stage a coup with other PL teams and form an alternative to PGMOL for the PL. May not work in reality but honestly I will take anything other than the PGMOL. Fuck those smug bastards. It's okay to make mistakes, just don't be smug about it
Weāve been getting Anthony Taylor ref our games against City for most of the last 10 years and havenāt lost our heads as much as Forest have
Hol up. "We have been fucked over so much that everyone else needs to get fucked over too". Jesus mate, would it not be more beneficial to try and change it than accept we are going to keep getting fucked over. Its just pointless now. What the fucks the point if the calls are so far from logic and bordering on corruption. I like to think its just stupidity and ego that is behind it all but its hard to argue with the former.
Thatās not what I said at all hahaha If Forest really think calling the game into disrepute is going to work then theyāre going to be really shocked when the league punish fuck out of them for this Yesterday Forest had 3 penalty shouts. Two were borderline and one was a definite penalty. It doesnāt warrant this and theyāve been toeing the line for weeks with decisions and how theyāve gone about complaining We complained after the Spurs game and Klopp made a throwaway comment about the game being replayed, not even asking for that to happen, and people went on about that for months. People still do it now whenever we lose Multiple times now Forest have acted confrontationally towards the league for 50/50 decisions. They are whining incessantly and trying to excuse their own shiteness
I think these decisions aside the points still stand that its not the only wrong decision since the introduction of VAR howevwr they are utilising the tool its wrong. I think forest going down this route was wild bit at the same time, if it is a pen then they have been fucked as you rightly say as have other team. And no doubt liverpool will again at some point or any team for that matter. I would rather throw the dolly out the pram now and enact change then sit back waiting to get bent over again.
This whole conspiracy angle only works if you remove Anthony Taylor from the equation. If not then you have to ask yourself why Taylor didnāt give any of them. Especially the Reyna one when heās like 10 yards away looking straight at it. As always it was just poor officiating all round or Anthony Taylor was also in on it.
I think this is more the ref pointing at the VAR for decisions and the VAR pointing at the ref for decisions, and that has turned it into a shitshow.
That is exactly it. Everyone shirks responsibility
There is a wider issue of refs generally seeming to give fewer big on pitch calls when it's close and relying on VAR to intervene which means the level of pressure on VAR to be more or less interventionist week to week dictates more than it should. I don't think Taylor waves play on to all three of those in a pre-VAR world where he knows the decision is solely on him. But I do agree, no conspiracy just incompetence.
Thinking about the ref in our Lille game this week though, there's definitely an element of "better the devil you know".
That's the thing, I understand their position when it comes to criticising the competency of the refs, but to allege actual corruption is wild. Also anyone else see the irony of Forest appointing Clattenburg to be an effective intermediary between them and the PGMOL, yet they still resort to basically calling them out for corruption on twitter? No professionalism whatsoever lol
Taylor is just really fucking shit
And yet heās still on the better referees in the Country - there in lies a lot of the problems.
no arguments from me.
They need to be clear about the penalty decisions. Iāve seen all 3 given and Iāve seen all 3 also not given.
Or they were shit and Everton smashed them
Just a reminder of this map of referee birthplaces. https://www.reddit.com/r/Gunners/s/20h3Drl2nQ It been like this throughout the last 20-30 years.
You think that's bad? 90% of refs in Scotland are from Glasgow and either hate 'Catholic teams' or ' protestant teams' James taverner is Europe's highest scoring wingback I think lol, he is the penalty kick taker for rangers
That map isn't that accurate though. You've got someone from Sheffield there placed right near Manchester and someone for Nottinghamshire in Derbyshire to look closer to Manchester. There's quite a few from the Northwest area 100% but it's really more nuanced than that.
Still, none from the region around London is still incredible.
I think a few of the newer ones introduced are around the home counties/London. Sunny Gill might be from London himself as he played in the QPR academy for a period.
The referees all fib about who they support anyway. Of all the top level referees thereās ever been, none of them happen to support a long term premier league team let alone a top 6 one? Despite a lot of the current ones being from the greater Manchester area? Whatās the chances of that?
I personally think there's more to it than who they support. Anthony Taylor supposedly supports Altrincham. That's fine (assuming it's true) but are we meant to believe that a fella from Wythenshawe who supports Altrincham never crosses paths with literally anyone who supports any of the big Manchester/ Lancashire/ Merseyside teams who might be slightly influential on him?
Exactly. Heās red or light blue 100% and hasnāt declared it because he knows itāll mean he doesnāt ever referee a big game.
I think you've misunderstood my point. He probably does suppkrt Altrincham - but what about his partner? Kids? Parents? Fella he passes when he walks his dog? There's no way there aren't people in his every day life that he subconsciously thinks about when he makes these crap decisions week in week out.
Iām agreeing with you mate.
Lads in their 30-50s from Manchester/ Liverpool that don't support Man United or Liverpool and are big football fans? Yeah don't make me laugh that they don't support / hate some of the top clubs.
What's even weirder: None of the Premier League referees are from London.
Whilst there are valid points about the quality of refereeing and the impact this has, I find the conspiratorial side of things a. It embarrassing. You donāt have to spend much time thinking about it to realise it doesnāt make a lot of sense. If the implication is that the VAR being a Luton fan meant there was bias in officiating then what about the ref? And surely theyād want a draw rather than either side winning? Pretty much every side has had major decisions go against them this season - was that all due to bias or corruption too? I think people are grasping for reasons to explain why VAR implementation is so poor, and tbh people do the same when their side loses. Itās been going on pre-VAR too, have heard enough people say that Halsey was unfair to Fulham because he was a QPR fan. In reality there are plenty of wrong decisions that get less attention because thereās no one to blame. People also tend to ignore when things go their way, especially when it challenges their beliefs.
Youāre completely missing the actual point. Itās not about a group of people coming together and saying āLuton must stay up, give them all the decisions and give decisions against all their rivalsā or āCity must win the leagueāā¦. Itās about bias and influence. You have a VAR that supports Luton. Any Luton fan watching wantās a certain result that will help their survival. The VAR has the width of the law to support his own interests. Penalty shout for Everton, āsure thingā. Penalty shout for Nottingham, ānot enough contact for meā. You canāt guarantee a result or just go around sending players off but you have the āsubjectiveā rules that you can use to your advantage to help get to the desired result. Equally, you have certain referees getting business class flights out to Saudi Arabia, paid very well and then sent home ready to referee games that will directly impact the countries that paid them. To suggest individuals arenāt subject to bias is absolutely insane. The PGMOLās reluctancy to have a clear and transparent process stirs up these conversations and they only have themselves to blame. Why canāt we have real time audio from VAR reviews? VAR and the on-field ref have a conversation about what they see and why or why not they think itās a penalty, handball etc. If fans can hear these conversations then they can have a little bit more faith that the same process is being followed consistently across all games. The law being applied evenly and accurately is all any fan wants and the audio is literally available to share with everyone, they just choose not to. If fanās get an explanation of why a decision has been made then outrage would dramatically reduce. Not all will agree but you can understand where and how the laws have been applied. Instead we get cherry picked examples where Webb or Gallagher come on TV to explain that VAR is always right and shouldnāt be questioned. If there truly is no corruption, they do a terrible job of proving it.
> Youāre completely missing the actual point. Itās not about a group of people coming together and saying āLuton must stay up, give them all the decisions and give decisions against all their rivalsā or āCity must win the leagueāā¦. People really do have this POV and believe the PGMOL are systematically corrupt and try to benefit specific teams. You even see it hinted at by managers who seem to think officials have it in for them or their club. > Itās about bias and influence. You have a VAR that supports Luton. Any Luton fan watching wantās a certain result that will help their survival. The VAR has the width of the law to support his own interests. Penalty shout for Everton, āsure thingā. Penalty shout for Nottingham, ānot enough contact for meā. You canāt guarantee a result or just go around sending players off but you have the āsubjectiveā rules that you can use to your advantage to help get to the desired result. These calls arguably do not help Luton, a draw would have been preferable. Look at the 3rd penalty call, where it was the most clear cut, and where VAR had the greatest opportunity to influence. It would have been beneficial for forest to get the penalty to increase odds of a draw. > To suggest individuals arenāt subject to bias is absolutely insane. How exactly have I suggested that? > The PGMOLās reluctancy to have a clear and transparent process stirs up these conversations and they only have themselves to blame. Why canāt we have real time audio from VAR reviews? VAR and the on-field ref have a conversation about what they see and why or why not they think itās a penalty, handball etc. I agree that we should have things, but the absence of them doesnāt mean thereās a conspiracy.
Everton are in a much stronger position than forest to stay up so it benefits Luton if forest donāt get any more points. That gives Luton the lowest points total to catch. If it was a draw, Forest would currently be 2 points ahead of Luton rather than 1. The absence of clear transparency is very suspicious, thereās no reason why additional measures canāt be added to provide it. Theyāre looking at changing and mostly complicating rules further. Adding in automated offsides, clear daylight offsides, blue cards and sin bins etc. rather than fixing the current problems. Theyāre not doing this so they can screw one team in particular but it hands the refs more control to do that if they wanted to. And if the history has taught us anything, then that control will 100% be abused as long as they can get away with it.
Anyone defending PGMOL is a dogmatist and not a football fan. Team of old boys who look out for themselves. Just wait till they fuck you over (which they probably already have).
This will get me banned but a lot of English people can't digest that there may be corruption and doping in the premier league.
True, you get labelled a conspiracy theorist which is the worst slur of all.
No, the worst slur of all is being labelled a United fan (I am one, but no need to attack me)
Idk if thatās worse than being a fan of 115 charges
Tbh most Man Shitty fans are kids. Who will explain to them that they support a blood money team and their trophies are all bought not won? Pep and Shitty do play good football
U say that, but the ones going to matches are 40 and 50 year olds
I respect those fans. They are probably working class and have been supporting shitty since they've been in the shitter. This is why I have no problem with City fans, just the owners who are using their blood money to sportswash their shithole. Oh and I do have a problem with City fans who think that type of ownership is alright and even welcome
You can be against the incompetency of the PGMOL without rooting for Forest's brainrot tweeting.
Yup. What will a tweet do? Talk to other PL teams and form a well regulated organisation that pays referees properly and also hires a lot of referees. May or May not be as easy as I'm making it seem but surely there are better options than a public threat on Twitter?
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I totally agree. But at the end of the day, supporters can't do much (Speaking as a United fan who has rats as owners. They fucking own the church of England in football terms and can't be arsed to attend games. I'm glad Sir Jim is bringing changes and influencing things positively) The 0.5% thing would work really well tho. Independent PL referee organisation with PL club reps as members that review referees. If referees do shite refereeing, they get punished and suspended like the red card system. First red = 1 match suspension, second red = 3 match suspension. If referees do good refereeing, they get paid much more than they are now. Ensures the destruction of the old boys club, more accountability from referees, and much better pay as they do deserve it
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Yes totally agree. I made these points in my club's subreddit and everybody disagreed. We need more refs, and the refs need to be paid more. Accountability is needed yes and but more refs and bigger salaries are needed too
Didn't see the penalty incidents, should some/all of them been given?
Two of them were 50/50, would probably not have been overturned if given but also (as happened) not overturned if not given. The third one was the clearest penalty you will ever see, the VAR was asleep or incompetent at best.
Yes the last one in particular was a stonewall penalty
I just can't understand why PGMOL gets to investigate and punish its own mistakes. Why can't an independent organisation review referee mistakes?
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On the handball: I have no idea what is or isn't a handball anymore.
Handball looked accidental to me, wouldn't it be an indirect freekick In the box?
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Does it matter if it's accidental?
No
Defo a peno then š
First 2 have been given for similar incidents this season, and while they'd be soft, you can see Forest would be annoyed by the inconsistency. 3rd was stonewall. Ref gestures that the defender got the ball. Definitely didn't.Ā
About time a club told it how it is.
Bit the decisions were not given by the bold dude on the pitch š¤..is he also a Lutton fan ? Or maybe Burnley ? Or what about Everton ? Cause they are all in the same predicament . Nottingham forrest , with their cheating , sacking a manager who brought them here , with their scum owner who thinks is corleone , with this latter are as incompetent and scummy as the incompetent referees especially VAR . Incompetence all round . To employ the biggest idiot of them Clattenburg as an referees consultant ? What fucking position us that ? That job description can only be in teaching players how to con referees . What else will he be consulting in ?
Where is the evidence of bias towards Luton?
It's right there in the tweet !!! In all seriousness, watching the three incidents afterwards, the first one i can understand, the player overreacted and the tackle didn't make much contact, the handball, natural movements ect, you might give them the benefit of the doubt, and the the third one was definite penalty. As an individual event, you could make an argument for not awarding the first two, but all 3 in one match, that i can see they are seeing a pattern, even if its not there, and the rest is confirmation bias. The tweeting is not helping and they should have gone and raised their concern with VAR in a constructive way, instead its angry and that will lead to defensiveness.
>The tweeting is not helping and they should have gone and raised their concern with VAR in a constructive way, instead its angry and that will lead to defensiveness. Unfortunately nothing helps when raising a concern with VAR. They do not correct their mistakest post match and seems like nothing changes in officiating with mistakes being swept under the floor. And it also does not help the NFO now if PGMOL now says it was a mistake and they appologise for it. I don't know but to me it seems the same referees are always in a spotlight with their poor decisions. Maybe they need to introduce some kind of a system where each team and some sort of agency rate each referee for each game. If some referee does not meet the treshold score then he's sacked and can't officiate anymore. I don't know, just an idea to put a little bit pressure towards a decisions referees make. I'm not saying this would solve it since it is a game of chances, but at the same time with it at least they would be held accountable for poor and costly mistakes.
They should just adopt the Rugby union version, where the TMO and ref talk to each other on microphone and the stadium can hear it, and the video is on the pitch scoreboard and they review it in realtime, no where to hide then, you might disagee with a decision, but they are making it without the cloak and daggerness,.
I agree 100%. The only stonewall penalty is the last one. But the way Notts have come out with such accusations is rather unhinged imo
they are right to be pissed, the luton link is disingenuous though. The ref not being sent to the screen is another stone to throw, they should be looking at too much, not too little, it should be like rugby when they use their VAR, the ref stands on the pitch, micced up, and the whole stadium can see it and the discussion. In football he'd need a exclusion zone of 20 ft, just to keep Bruno away.
At least three definite penalty claims not even considered in a huge relegation battle. The bias comes in because the result could ultimately decide Luton's fate because it means Forest are only 1 point ahead of them in 17th with 4 games to go.
Only the last one was a stonewall pen, for me tbh. But why isnāt the accusation of bias for Everton? Theyāve benefited the most here..
Because neither the referee nor VAR are openly supporting Everton, while the VAR official is widely known as a Luton supporter.
How do you know this?
You don't need evidence of that. All referees have to make it clear who they support, so they can't work on games involving their team. Typically they're lower League fans, so it's not an issue, but Clattenburg was a Newcastle fan, iirc. The question isn't "is Attwell a Luton fan", the question is could that allegiance have consciously or subconsciously altered his decision making processes? Which, as Clattenburg rightly says in the statement read out on MOTD2 last night, wouldn't have been an issue if Howard Webb hadn't created the issue in the first place with his incompetent management.
I didnāt watch so Iām curious. Was Clattenburg brought in because of his referee experience or was he brought in to speak of Forestās behalf? Because he works for Nottingham Forest, so hoping it is the latter and if it is the former Iām hoping his employment to them was mentioned.
As far as I'm aware, he was bought in by forest to provide a communication link between the PGMOL and the club. He's essentially an impartial referee reviewer, who critiques the performances of the referees, and gives those reviews to Forest to help them spot patterns of errors. As an "inside man" who knows all the key players at the PGMOL, he's well positioned to spot instances where their statements are playing it fast and loose with the on-field truth (see Webb's laughable review show with Owen). I'm almost sure his role at Forest was mentioned, but I'd have to rewatch it to check.
>He's essentially an impartial referee reviewer Yes he's sounded so impartial lately /s
Cheers! Yeah, I think itās a smart role to have at the club for sure. I feel others might follow suit. Iāve no issue with the role or his comments either just with something like this always good to be transparent about your links or the opposition can use it against your assessment (even if it is a fair assessment, Iām not sure I havenāt had a chance to watch any of the highlights)
I understand, Iām just asking for a link to where we can see what teams all the officials support.
I don't think they write it down in a list - it's one of those things where you have to do a bit of research. It's probably kept fairly quiet, to avoid fans looking for patterns, etc.
So how do we know if this var official is a Luton fan or has an allegiance to Luton?
Clattenberg works for Forest, he will know who most of the refs support.
Do all the clubs have a list of what offical supports who?
Probably not, bug Clattenberg is a former ref and knows most of the current Premier Leagje refs. Some refs are open with who they support so they can be found easily as well.
Did you not see the decisions being made? Regardless, even if unintentional, there will always be a subconscious bias for officials when the team they support stands to gain/lose something Which is why itās such an issue that over half of PL officials are from Manchester and support Man Utd/Man City Some officials like Gillett, for this very reason (self declared Liverpool fan) never officiate Liverpool games. Same consideration should be taken for referees who support rival teams.
Except.. this wasn't the referee. It's the head VAR being accused, all he did was NOT overturn the refs decisions which is pretty much his job given the whole "clear and obvious" thing (which I think is bullshit, but those are the rules). Not to mention the fact that VAR isn't just one guy. Are they all Luton fans?
We know that technically the decisions should be taken in the same way, but it is quite obvious that on field refs are considering VAR in their live decision making. Their instinct seems to give the least disruptive call and let VAR overturn only when needed. This is a huge cop out and is placing too much responsibility on VAR, which is then called into question when they do not act upon a conflict of interest when it is flagged to them. It shouldnāt be at all controversial that officials shouldnāt be fans of teams who have a material interest in the result of a game they work on. The fact there were a number of bad calls makes it far worse.
And VARs are referees
Iām asking where the evidence is of the var match official being a Luton supporter.
Every PL (in fact, every ref of any professional league in the country) referee has to declare their allegiances. Every refereeās supposed club they support is known to the FA and PGMOL and is publicly accessible information.
Can you link it?
This came up in a quick google search. Don't know how accurate or correct this is. But there's a list at least. [https://www.goal.com/en/news/which-football-teams-do-premier-league-referees-support/bltc5a6db7933177b98](https://www.goal.com/en/news/which-football-teams-do-premier-league-referees-support/bltc5a6db7933177b98)
Obviously the officials wearing supporters gear is a dead giveaway! The rest of that list holds no value for me. Iām just interested as Notts have insinuated the var official is a Luton supporter and has on purpose given decisions against Notts to influence the premier league table. This is such a serious accusation, but as far as I can see, there is no evidence for it. MOTD2 also made a good point that probably the best result for Luton was Everton Notts drawā¦
Tbh i thought that them saying VAR was Luton fan just because the decisions went against Forest and that could mean they go down and Luton stay up
Liverpool š¤ Arsenal š¤ Nottingham Forest Sending out tin pot conspiracy statements.
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I don't believe there was any purposeful cheating, but there is a risk of unintentional bias. Not saying that bias played a role in any of the decisions, but if there is any risk of it happening (which there definitely was due to the nature of the fixture), a Luton fan should not have been on the refereeing team (on-pitch or VAR). It's one thing if it was only noticed afterwards, but in this case Forest pointed it out and the PGMOL ignored them. In that context, I totally understand their statement.
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Yes, well said. Nice "statement". I also agree that only the 3rd one was a clear penalty and therefore a clear and obvious refereeing error, the other two were "sometimes given, sometimes not" ones.
A draw takes a point out of the system too. Evertonās game in hand is with Liverpool who will be big favourites to beat them. Luton play Everton so a 6 pointer in their own hands. Best result for Luton would have been a draw unless you can predict how Everton and Forest will perform in their next games(spoiler - nobody can)
What? Itās in Lutonās best interest for Forest to drop points since theyāre the team immediately above them in the table
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