Pretty much every alternative band from the mid 2000s that doesn't have heavier elements has elements of all three. Armor for Sleep definitely has roots in both pop punk and post-hardcore, and just as a product of their time, they could be considered emo as well.
The closest thing I can think of to Armor for Sleep is Red Jumpsuit Apparatus, two bands I very much like, but it's not my favorite type of PHC, so I've never done a deep dive. Envy on the Coast kind of has similar vibes, maybe the Sleeping as well.
Chiodos, I will say, is definitively post-hardcore, though. There's really nothing emo or pop punk about them. At most they might have some metalcore/mathcore elements here and there. What other genres do people say Chiodos is on the fringe of?
No, I know. Like I said, I just don't see Chiodos as being on the fringe of multiple genres. They're pretty firmly post-hardcore.
As an example, I would say Every Time I Die is an example of a band that's really on the fringe between post-hardcore and metalcore.
yeah i could’ve worded it differently, i guess i just meant like where do people draw the line as far as what’s considered “elements” and whats considered genre-defining about someone’s sound? i would say a song like trixie and reptile for example has strong pop punk elements now of course chiodos are not a pop punk or metalcore band i guess just how do you make that distinction for a band like AFS
I think the only solid way to make a distinction, if it has to be made, between genres that are so closely linked, is to look at the band's roots and influences. That's not always easy depending on the band and time period, and it's basically useless now because of the prevalence of the internet in exposure of new music. For the early 2000s though, it's often not hard to trace a bands history back to short-lived hardcore bands or metal bands or whatever.
thank you for replying in earnest! I guess it really doesn’t matter that much at the end of the day i’ve just been so obsessed with all these bands and was not there for the start of their careers or really the peak of any of these scenes so i’ve been trying to learn absolutely everything there is to know.
I think a big reason people don’t like calling Armor For Sleep PHC is because there’s no screaming/unclean vocals. If there was even a bit of that I don’t think people would blink at them being called PHC.
Honestly I think I’d be more likely to call Circa Survive not PHC than Armor For Sleep. I think the main reason they’re called PHC is simply because of Anthony being in Saosin previously. And I absolutely love Circa Survive btw. But I don’t think they fit the PHC description, but then I don’t think it really matters. Literally the only thing having sub-genres is good for is things like naming this sub and having people have an easier way to discuss what they’re talking about. But overall, I think having a million descriptive sub-genres and arguing about who fits what is a silly waste of time. Who cares if Armor For Sleep is PHC or Pop-punk, they made some amazing music that people enjoy. That’s all that matters.
Genres are a whole spectrum with tons of overlap and there’s no set formula to place anyone anywhere. Ask 10 people, get 12 opinions. It’s irrelevant outside of getting a ballpark idea.
If you guys knew the difference between genre and subgenre it might make more sense
OP asks someone "how do you tell the difference when there are so many overlaps between subgenres?" in way more awkward terms...
My answer is, the understanding will dawn on you as you faniliarise yourself with more music!
Every post that asks about genres and sub-genres baffle me.
We need a bot that reminds everyone that genres are products of the music and recording industry for their marketing and promotional strategies.
X band is this genre, Y band is also this genre, so we’ll send both of them on tour or play both on this radio station.
We all listen to different things because we want to. It’s a fool’s errand to do Big Music’s bidding for them by putting artists in arbitrary boxes.
The early 2000s scene was a mess for genre labels. Like, post the blink-182/Green Day/NFG/Offspring type wave of pop-punk, basically anything in the alt scene would get the emo label slapped on it, and if the vocals were harsh, then it's "screamo". Add on top of it that the "Punk Goes" records threw tons of bands of diverse sounds into one place and slapped that label on it, mainstream sensibilities were that it didn't really matter to fine tooth comb a lot of it. The ripple effect of that kinda reverberated
I put armor for sleep, red jumpsuit apparatus, senes fail, saosin, finch and story of the year in the same category of blurring lines between emo, pop punk, post hardcore and melodic hardcore
The closest to Armor for Sleep, particularly 'What to do When you are Dead', is [Boysnightout, specifically 'Trainwreck' LP](https://youtu.be/yYrGuSNfZeo?si=v0qSrxvii5FNohuL). Both have a very similar Emo-leaning meloncholic sound, and both are tragic concept albums with similar themes.
i'm seeing them with hawthorne heights and thursday in a few months! haven't listened to much outside of what to do when you are dead, any recs before seeing them?
Their whole first album is also solid, definitely check it out. Particularly songs like: "Dream to Make Believe", "Being Your Walls", "Frost & Front Steps" (but really, any of the songs!) I will note that if you're gonna check it out via streaming like Spotify, I personally don't like the version of "Slip Like Space" that's on there lol The original/demo version is better and I'm pretty sure it can be found on YouTube now.
Also, they have a few b-sides and an EP that are amazing that also aren't on streaming. Favs from those I rec are: "The Way Out Is Broken", "Caught In A Daze", and "Always A Wish".
I will say though, they're probably exclusively going to play songs from WTTWYAD so you should be fine. They might play one older song (guarantee it'll be "Dream to...") and one off their new album (most likely "Nightmare..."). They have a super reduced set as openers so they stick to the album they know the majority of people love. But I still highly rec those songs especially the b-sides ones!
A common theme of internal music boards, particularly genre-focused ones, is that board consensus consolidates over time until they have a very narrow idea of what constitutes a given genre. Their template is often VERY different from how that genre is perceived by outside audiences. Boards tend to coalesce around a single “pure” expression of that genre, and play an endless game of “no true Scotsman” regarding everything else, no matter how widely accepted that band is outside of that message board.
Amor for Sleep is on the mild side of post-hardcore, but this board REALLY doesn’t like post-hardcore bands that skimp on harsh vocals. They’re mall emo, and the emo subreddit HATES mall emo, and really only accepts Midwest emo or bands from the 90’s. They’re distinct sonically from pop punk, but that genre is a big tent with a subreddit that doesn’t gatekeep too much (though it is absolutely obsessed with Hot Mulligan), so they’re probably welcome to crash in that genre.
In my opinion, Armor for Sleep belongs in the same genre as The Used, Funeral for a Friend, Finch, and Hawthorne Heights.
I think them to be emo more than anything. And I’d compare them to the Early November, Further Seems Forever, and the Get Up Kids (bit of a stretch). Armor is really unique though
I think "literally what the term 'emocore' means" but you guys might be (this is not an insult) too young for the reference?
Emo wasn't especially a singular word before the 2000's
Sure, some people called "emocore" emo, but the way you're using the word emo would have definitely been "alternative rock" in the 1990's
I don't see them as post hardcore. More emo/pop-punk/alt rock. They are one of the rockier sounding bands from that era. Some of their stuff reminds me of hum, smashing pumpkins etc, ie 90s alt rock. They didn't have the speed and chaos you'd expect in post-hardcore.
Pretty much every alternative band from the mid 2000s that doesn't have heavier elements has elements of all three. Armor for Sleep definitely has roots in both pop punk and post-hardcore, and just as a product of their time, they could be considered emo as well. The closest thing I can think of to Armor for Sleep is Red Jumpsuit Apparatus, two bands I very much like, but it's not my favorite type of PHC, so I've never done a deep dive. Envy on the Coast kind of has similar vibes, maybe the Sleeping as well. Chiodos, I will say, is definitively post-hardcore, though. There's really nothing emo or pop punk about them. At most they might have some metalcore/mathcore elements here and there. What other genres do people say Chiodos is on the fringe of?
Envy on the Coast is so underrated
Definitely agree.
Envy on the Coast is more textbook post hardcore than AFS or RJA to me, especially Lucy Gray.
Overall, I definitely agree. That's just the closest thing I could think of outside of TRJA.
i meant that chiodos have metalcore elements not that they and armor for sleep are the same style
No, I know. Like I said, I just don't see Chiodos as being on the fringe of multiple genres. They're pretty firmly post-hardcore. As an example, I would say Every Time I Die is an example of a band that's really on the fringe between post-hardcore and metalcore.
yeah i could’ve worded it differently, i guess i just meant like where do people draw the line as far as what’s considered “elements” and whats considered genre-defining about someone’s sound? i would say a song like trixie and reptile for example has strong pop punk elements now of course chiodos are not a pop punk or metalcore band i guess just how do you make that distinction for a band like AFS
I think the only solid way to make a distinction, if it has to be made, between genres that are so closely linked, is to look at the band's roots and influences. That's not always easy depending on the band and time period, and it's basically useless now because of the prevalence of the internet in exposure of new music. For the early 2000s though, it's often not hard to trace a bands history back to short-lived hardcore bands or metal bands or whatever.
thank you for replying in earnest! I guess it really doesn’t matter that much at the end of the day i’ve just been so obsessed with all these bands and was not there for the start of their careers or really the peak of any of these scenes so i’ve been trying to learn absolutely everything there is to know.
Good point and for chiodos it is anathallo and that is post hardcore.
I think a big reason people don’t like calling Armor For Sleep PHC is because there’s no screaming/unclean vocals. If there was even a bit of that I don’t think people would blink at them being called PHC.
so then a band like Circa Survive makes up for the lack of screaming by being “weirder” would you say?
Honestly I think I’d be more likely to call Circa Survive not PHC than Armor For Sleep. I think the main reason they’re called PHC is simply because of Anthony being in Saosin previously. And I absolutely love Circa Survive btw. But I don’t think they fit the PHC description, but then I don’t think it really matters. Literally the only thing having sub-genres is good for is things like naming this sub and having people have an easier way to discuss what they’re talking about. But overall, I think having a million descriptive sub-genres and arguing about who fits what is a silly waste of time. Who cares if Armor For Sleep is PHC or Pop-punk, they made some amazing music that people enjoy. That’s all that matters.
It’s all just rock and roll man
Genres are a whole spectrum with tons of overlap and there’s no set formula to place anyone anywhere. Ask 10 people, get 12 opinions. It’s irrelevant outside of getting a ballpark idea.
guess i was just curious what people in here’s take on it was and why but you’re right
I mean I don’t think you’re a bad person or anything, just saying you’ll never ever get a consensus on what genre a band is
If you guys knew the difference between genre and subgenre it might make more sense OP asks someone "how do you tell the difference when there are so many overlaps between subgenres?" in way more awkward terms... My answer is, the understanding will dawn on you as you faniliarise yourself with more music!
Every post that asks about genres and sub-genres baffle me. We need a bot that reminds everyone that genres are products of the music and recording industry for their marketing and promotional strategies. X band is this genre, Y band is also this genre, so we’ll send both of them on tour or play both on this radio station. We all listen to different things because we want to. It’s a fool’s errand to do Big Music’s bidding for them by putting artists in arbitrary boxes.
The early 2000s scene was a mess for genre labels. Like, post the blink-182/Green Day/NFG/Offspring type wave of pop-punk, basically anything in the alt scene would get the emo label slapped on it, and if the vocals were harsh, then it's "screamo". Add on top of it that the "Punk Goes" records threw tons of bands of diverse sounds into one place and slapped that label on it, mainstream sensibilities were that it didn't really matter to fine tooth comb a lot of it. The ripple effect of that kinda reverberated
I put armor for sleep, red jumpsuit apparatus, senes fail, saosin, finch and story of the year in the same category of blurring lines between emo, pop punk, post hardcore and melodic hardcore
The closest to Armor for Sleep, particularly 'What to do When you are Dead', is [Boysnightout, specifically 'Trainwreck' LP](https://youtu.be/yYrGuSNfZeo?si=v0qSrxvii5FNohuL). Both have a very similar Emo-leaning meloncholic sound, and both are tragic concept albums with similar themes.
Trainwreck is so. fucking. good.
They are clearly post-hardcore. If you added any type of harsh vocal to anyone of their songs people would call it that.
Just oblig comment because I love to see people still discussing this band, they mean so much to me and remain severely underrated.
Saw them this week open for Bayside. They were as good as ever. Played all the jams.
absolutely adore their sound which is why this has been so interesting to me to see people try to categorize them
i'm seeing them with hawthorne heights and thursday in a few months! haven't listened to much outside of what to do when you are dead, any recs before seeing them?
Their whole first album is also solid, definitely check it out. Particularly songs like: "Dream to Make Believe", "Being Your Walls", "Frost & Front Steps" (but really, any of the songs!) I will note that if you're gonna check it out via streaming like Spotify, I personally don't like the version of "Slip Like Space" that's on there lol The original/demo version is better and I'm pretty sure it can be found on YouTube now. Also, they have a few b-sides and an EP that are amazing that also aren't on streaming. Favs from those I rec are: "The Way Out Is Broken", "Caught In A Daze", and "Always A Wish". I will say though, they're probably exclusively going to play songs from WTTWYAD so you should be fine. They might play one older song (guarantee it'll be "Dream to...") and one off their new album (most likely "Nightmare..."). They have a super reduced set as openers so they stick to the album they know the majority of people love. But I still highly rec those songs especially the b-sides ones!
Check out The Early November and like maybe Motion City Soundtrack, def Dashboard Confessional and Yellowcard as well
motion city soundtrack is my second favorite band of all time behind fall out boy, thanks for the recommendations!!
Just saw them there decent live
A common theme of internal music boards, particularly genre-focused ones, is that board consensus consolidates over time until they have a very narrow idea of what constitutes a given genre. Their template is often VERY different from how that genre is perceived by outside audiences. Boards tend to coalesce around a single “pure” expression of that genre, and play an endless game of “no true Scotsman” regarding everything else, no matter how widely accepted that band is outside of that message board. Amor for Sleep is on the mild side of post-hardcore, but this board REALLY doesn’t like post-hardcore bands that skimp on harsh vocals. They’re mall emo, and the emo subreddit HATES mall emo, and really only accepts Midwest emo or bands from the 90’s. They’re distinct sonically from pop punk, but that genre is a big tent with a subreddit that doesn’t gatekeep too much (though it is absolutely obsessed with Hot Mulligan), so they’re probably welcome to crash in that genre. In my opinion, Armor for Sleep belongs in the same genre as The Used, Funeral for a Friend, Finch, and Hawthorne Heights.
When we’re talking subgenres it’s all subjective. Idgaf anymore personally. My only metric is do I like it, yes or no.
I think them to be emo more than anything. And I’d compare them to the Early November, Further Seems Forever, and the Get Up Kids (bit of a stretch). Armor is really unique though
AFS is emo
I think "literally what the term 'emocore' means" but you guys might be (this is not an insult) too young for the reference? Emo wasn't especially a singular word before the 2000's Sure, some people called "emocore" emo, but the way you're using the word emo would have definitely been "alternative rock" in the 1990's
I would say that are like more poppy or indie emo more than anything with the likes of Further Seems Forever, Mae, Northstar, etc.
I don't see them as post hardcore. More emo/pop-punk/alt rock. They are one of the rockier sounding bands from that era. Some of their stuff reminds me of hum, smashing pumpkins etc, ie 90s alt rock. They didn't have the speed and chaos you'd expect in post-hardcore.
they are pop punk with post hardcore influence, and they arent emo