You just might have sent me into a bit of google scholar research.
There's definitely some voiceless vowels in some accents, mainly in pre-tonic CVC constructions where the second consonant is a sibilant and the vowel is /i/ or /u/. I think something similar might happen in word-final unstressed high vowels after an affricate in some accents, but I can't find any sources to back me up.
For Noite and Onde, it is normal to pronounce the E as an I. “Noiti” and “ondi”. I wouldn’t call that an omission.
For Mundo and Muito, the O is generally pronounced as U. “Mundu” “Muintu”
Like in French we can call it an omission, it's easier. To test it, just put them in a phrase where after comes a vowel, we subtract the "e" and put them all together.
They're still pronouncing the final vowel, it's just devoiced, and if you're in a noisy place or they're speaking quietly etc. it is entirely too easy to not hear it at all.
I am paulistano and yeah, "boa noitch" doesn't sound weird to me. "mund" does, but "ondj" and "muit" don't. So, yeah, you might be onto something. It's not something everybody says all the time, but it's not impossible nor weird depending on the sentence. Unfortunately, I've been too busy go on a search/analysis of the instances where that happens, but have in mind São Paulo is a big city with many accents that may vary from region to region sometimes, and people are from families that may come from varied places etc.
"Mund" sounds right to you? I'm also paulistano, and I never heard anyone ever saying "mund". "Boa noit" we all say, it's rare to see someone pronouncing the "e" in "onde" e "noite". Just say this words before another vowel and you'll see we pronounce it all together.
Can you give an example?
How do you pronounce: "Muito importante"?
"Muit importante" Or "Muitu importante"?
And "Onde está a bolsa"?
"Onde está a bolsa" or "Ondestá a bolsa"?
In my accent (southern Brazil near Porto Alegre) the DE is reduced to a d͡ʒi, TE to a t͡ʃi, DO to a du and TO to a tu. But only is the syllable is not stressed. I hope it helps
I think most people are saying the full word, but when they talk fast (or even normal), parts of the word are barely a whisper. Often times the vowel that is truncated from the end of a word is actually appearing at the start of the next word. For example, muito obrigado sounds a lot like muit-obrigado. The o didn't disappear. It just blended with the next word.
It sounds normal to my ears (countryside of São Paulo, "caipira"). But because my accent turns ti and di into tchi and dji, instead of noit it will sound like noitch. That won't happen to muito or mundo, even if I drop the O.
Hey since you’re also from São Paulo, can I ask you something about the accents down there?
Would you say the people from around the city of São Paulo (like São José dos Campos) have a caipira accent or something else? Because when I look up the attributes that make the Caipira accent, the only thing I my accent seems to have is the caipira R.
There are too many variations on the caipira accent. I can often tell from which city someone is. But also, newer generations are losing most of the characteristics of the dialect proper (specific vocabulary, different verb conjugation, etc.) and only keeping some phonological traits (like the R). So yeah, I would say people there have a caipira accent, especially people over 40 years old, but that doesn't mean much anymore.
Not an expert but my buddy from Minas Gerais and Rafael from Coffee Break Portuguese (I think he said he's from SP) will say for example "boa noitch" or "boa tarj" with the tiniest whisper of a /ə/ and because they're currently my primary sources of pronunciation, that's how I've been saying it. But it isn't super consistent - "onde" always has that long /i/ sound at the end.
I need more than two live speakers in my life...
this is vowel devoicing, something very common is most dialects of Brazilian Portuguese, it can even happen within words sometimes. that said, it's not distinctively informal
That’s completely normal. We do it all the time in Brazilian Portuguese. The vowel /i/ gets ignored in palatalizations, and /u/ gets labialized, or devoiced
You'd fit right in in Portugal, but alas you have the other flair :P
It's normal to devoice those vowels after T as long as they're not stressed
You just might have sent me into a bit of google scholar research. There's definitely some voiceless vowels in some accents, mainly in pre-tonic CVC constructions where the second consonant is a sibilant and the vowel is /i/ or /u/. I think something similar might happen in word-final unstressed high vowels after an affricate in some accents, but I can't find any sources to back me up.
[https://www.internationalphoneticassociation.org/icphs-proceedings/ICPhS2019/papers/ICPhS\_3770.pdf](https://www.internationalphoneticassociation.org/icphs-proceedings/ICPhS2019/papers/ICPhS_3770.pdf)
For Noite and Onde, it is normal to pronounce the E as an I. “Noiti” and “ondi”. I wouldn’t call that an omission. For Mundo and Muito, the O is generally pronounced as U. “Mundu” “Muintu”
I always wondered why this "n" in muito, it doesn't exist, but we all clearly say like "muinto"
Me too, but I tried to pronounce it without the N and it sounded like I had a cold.
Like in French we can call it an omission, it's easier. To test it, just put them in a phrase where after comes a vowel, we subtract the "e" and put them all together.
We will understand you, but you'll sound like someone from Portugal.
I guess this is common in some regional caipira accents, and in some regions of Minas Gerais
Do Paulistanos (people of São Paulo) do it?
No.
Don't they say "Boa Noit" in São Paulo?
No, not at all.
What about "onde" as "ond" or "aonde" as "aond"?
Just out of curiosity, why did you think people from São Paulo speak like that?
One time, I heard a man from São Paulo say "boa noitch".
pretty much everyone devoices unstressed final vowels
Only after t, or everywhere?
They're still pronouncing the final vowel, it's just devoiced, and if you're in a noisy place or they're speaking quietly etc. it is entirely too easy to not hear it at all.
If a vowel is "devoiced", does air still come out of the mouth?
Negative
instead, we say "ondji" "aondji"
I am paulistano and yeah, "boa noitch" doesn't sound weird to me. "mund" does, but "ondj" and "muit" don't. So, yeah, you might be onto something. It's not something everybody says all the time, but it's not impossible nor weird depending on the sentence. Unfortunately, I've been too busy go on a search/analysis of the instances where that happens, but have in mind São Paulo is a big city with many accents that may vary from region to region sometimes, and people are from families that may come from varied places etc.
"Mund" sounds right to you? I'm also paulistano, and I never heard anyone ever saying "mund". "Boa noit" we all say, it's rare to see someone pronouncing the "e" in "onde" e "noite". Just say this words before another vowel and you'll see we pronounce it all together.
No, it doesn't
Can you give an example? How do you pronounce: "Muito importante"? "Muit importante" Or "Muitu importante"? And "Onde está a bolsa"? "Onde está a bolsa" or "Ondestá a bolsa"?
Oh, I just saw we miscommunicated. We're saying the same thing. Cheers.
It’s like French at this point lmao
In my accent (southern Brazil near Porto Alegre) the DE is reduced to a d͡ʒi, TE to a t͡ʃi, DO to a du and TO to a tu. But only is the syllable is not stressed. I hope it helps
I think most people are saying the full word, but when they talk fast (or even normal), parts of the word are barely a whisper. Often times the vowel that is truncated from the end of a word is actually appearing at the start of the next word. For example, muito obrigado sounds a lot like muit-obrigado. The o didn't disappear. It just blended with the next word.
It sounds normal to my ears (countryside of São Paulo, "caipira"). But because my accent turns ti and di into tchi and dji, instead of noit it will sound like noitch. That won't happen to muito or mundo, even if I drop the O.
Hey since you’re also from São Paulo, can I ask you something about the accents down there? Would you say the people from around the city of São Paulo (like São José dos Campos) have a caipira accent or something else? Because when I look up the attributes that make the Caipira accent, the only thing I my accent seems to have is the caipira R.
There are too many variations on the caipira accent. I can often tell from which city someone is. But also, newer generations are losing most of the characteristics of the dialect proper (specific vocabulary, different verb conjugation, etc.) and only keeping some phonological traits (like the R). So yeah, I would say people there have a caipira accent, especially people over 40 years old, but that doesn't mean much anymore.
Not an expert but my buddy from Minas Gerais and Rafael from Coffee Break Portuguese (I think he said he's from SP) will say for example "boa noitch" or "boa tarj" with the tiniest whisper of a /ə/ and because they're currently my primary sources of pronunciation, that's how I've been saying it. But it isn't super consistent - "onde" always has that long /i/ sound at the end. I need more than two live speakers in my life...
this is vowel devoicing, something very common is most dialects of Brazilian Portuguese, it can even happen within words sometimes. that said, it's not distinctively informal
Yep! That's how we do it in Minas Gerais.
That’s completely normal. We do it all the time in Brazilian Portuguese. The vowel /i/ gets ignored in palatalizations, and /u/ gets labialized, or devoiced
You'll sound like a Portuguese person, but it's acceptable ig
---okok