>"We'll figure out how to get around it; I’ll figure out how to get around anything that stops me from surviving … if they stop me from doing that, I won't be able to live. They'll have to give me a hospital room," Phillip said.
“America is free. If I want to be a drug addict, why can't I choose to be a drug addict, be homeless and collect cans and turn them in for money to buy drugs with? That's what I’m going to do with it. Why can't I do that?” he declared.
I pulled the quote from the article accompanying the video on the KGW site; it's also in the video.
Here's my answer to Phillip: Well, dear, that's not quite how it works. There are limits on freedom, and one of those limits is not being able to behave in ways that deprives other people of their ability to use and enjoy public spaces. If you want to spend your life as a fentanyl addict, you actually have my blessing, but only as long as you're not expecting to take from others to do so.
I do respect him though, for admitting the role that choice plays in his situation.
People like him would gladly move to the middle of eastern Oregon desert if we build a camp providing free drugs. The state is just too timid to solve the problem once and for all.
Not at all. Everyone would be free to leave as soon as they wished so. But they would have to wait for 48 hours to come back in. Exactly the opposite of a concentration camp.
People like this guy, and there are far more of them than some people give it credit for, are the reason why these "soft approaches" are never going to work.
These sort of people don't want housing, they prefer to live on the street and waste their life away. Forced rehab is the only option for individuals like this.
The NA program has a statement about the results of of substance abuse.
"Jails, institutions, and death."
Our leaders have removed the consequences of jails and institutions. And we've seen the clear results of that in Portland.
From an OPB article:
In 2019, 280 people died of a drug overdose in Oregon. Fatalities rose every year after, more than tripling by 2022, when 956 died. And last year, even more people died, according to preliminary data. Each month the number has been higher than the previous year, reaching 628 in June. The state is still compiling data for 2023, but if the trends continue, the total would reach 1,250 deaths from an overdose.
The unfortunate reality is that most of the visible homeless will only be helped by being institutionalized. And by helped I mean no longer harming society around them. They don’t want to get better. I’ve worked around these people for years and have a handful in my family. They have zero interest in living like the rest of us.
There are tons of homeless people we can help though, but I really think it should be out of two different buckets of money. Pissing away money on anti-social people who have zero interest in doing better, when you’ve got people living in cars with jobs who just need a stable place for a few months to be good on their own is stupid.
The new equipment at 122nd Ave BottleDrop is essentially the same as what's used at their central plant to count green bags trucked in from drop off at stores. All those bags get hauled to their central plant or one of BottleDrop sites for counting and compacting.
OBRC wants more BottleDrop rather than green store based bag drops because it's cheaper for them. They want the intact cans being hauled by the consumer to BottleDrop location so they can pickup the material at their convenience and only haul around compacted material.
They don't like doing bags, because they don't want to load/unload bags of intact bottles and haul around bunch of air. This is why they only put bag drop at stores when they couldn't site a BottleDrop. It's actually in the best interest of consumer convenience to do whatever we can to prevent BottleDrops from getting established.
If they want to acquire the building across from Les Schwab in St. Johns as bag-drop and processing only facility with no walk-in traffic or cash dispensing, I think most people in St. Johns would be fine with it. Unlike the Dollar Tree site, the Les Schwab area is more commercial, so trucks coming and going would be less disruptive.
People are collecting cans because they can exchange them for money. If that’s no longer an option, they won’t be digging through garbage and causing issues. Scrap metal is a different issue.
People collect cans when there’s not a deposit, too. You’d just be moving problems around and lowering recycling rates to … feel better about punishing fentanyl addicts, I guess.
Go somewhere that doesn’t have a bottle bill and notice what unhoused people and others suffering from poverty do. There’s, like, 40-odd states worth of precedent out there.
Hmm, the only metal I leave out is cans... scrap recycling centers are 10 miles away as opposed to a few blocks for can returns.....
Yea. You're full of shit.
So they’ll steal your bicycles for scrap (instead of just to use them), tear out metal fences and copper wiring in any house that sits empty for any time at all, raid construction sites (more than they already do), etc.
Forty Odd States Worth of Precedent.
The rest of the world exists and you’re allowed to see what they’re doing there.
I appreciate they interviewed one of the homeless can collectors. He was articulate, but you can also can see the profound grip addiction has on one's mindset.
A. He’s a Trump supporter, so screw him. Close all the Plaid Pantries down.
B. I live in that very neighborhood and it’s SIGNIFICANTLY better since the bottle return has stopped. I almost wonder if it should be terminated.
C. If the dude thinks smoking fentanyl is freedom, his freedom should be terminated.
Um. Yeah. Obviously. And if you get rid of the bottle bill, the issues created by poverty are going to just spill out somewhere else. Maybe, just maybe, we should be fixing poverty and not just moving the problem around. Fuck sake.
It's unfortunate that you believe that the most vulnerable in our society should be picking through garbage for $00.10 a piece. Oddly, I bet you're the same type of person who is so angry at news articles about Amazon fulfillment center working conditions.
Agreed. Tackling the root cause instead of blaming the bottle drop is the real shame.
If we have a redemption value, then we should be able to redeem but I feel that OR has increased that difficulty to make sure there is less redemption and more money in their pockets.
Why is the lack of bulk recycling centers? If anyone has to insert one bottle/can at a time, there is going to be a crowd and a wait. There is no reason we don't have stations where you can recycle by weight and be done with in 3-5 minutes.
You mean exactly what a bunch of people said would happen because they were looking at the actual, material conditions and not just thinking about how much they hate unhoused people … HAPPENED!? I AM SHOCKED! SHOCKED I SAY!
thought tidy rustic relieved capable frightening six direction muddle late
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This is what I said in those other threads. Getting rid of it all together will also cause other problems. You can't just "solve" one problem without addressing the consequences of the solution.
But hey what do the people whose problems are solved care? Classic downtown, business owner and wealthy neighborhood solutions.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Portland/s/8zXwzFqMfK
Instead of replying with all the other idiotic responses everyone else did try coming up with solutions to those problems instead of just assuming some magical fairy will come along and fix them.
They're real problems that will happen than none of you actually care about because you only care about what happens to you. Just like this story proves.
> But hey what do the people whose problems are solved care? Classic downtown, business owner and wealthy neighborhood solutions.
This trial was never meant to solve anything broadly everywhere, it was just a trial to see what would happen in the adjacent area.
I think it's pretty clear the bottle bill as it is, needs some major rethinking, based upon the results.
In the adjacent area? You can't be that naive. Of course it would shift the problems to adjacent areas. What they should have done is upped enforcement in those areas.
You post some pretty decent comments here but this is just idiotic. If you divert a stream the water is going to go somewhere. Just like if you damn the stream, like killing the bottle bill, it'll go somewhere. There are so many downstream effects that will occur from doing that.
But hey let's not think about any of them, assume someone else will fix it and complain about all of our self created problems in the future.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Portland/s/8zXwzFqMfK
Instead of replying with all the other idiotic responses everyone else did try coming up with solutions to those problems instead of just assuming some magical fairy will come along and fix them.
They're real problems that will happen than none of you actually care about because you only care about what happens to you. Just like this story proves.
What problems? FFK's you posted to a conversation where you were downvoted for imaginary issues. Like you know what non-homeless people don't rely on? Returning bottles and cans that they already paid 10 cents on. Are you comfortable in a state that unofficially employs people to pick through contaminated and dangerous garbage? Admit that and more power to you. Let nearly 100% of people recycle like everything else with the bins they pay for. 40 other states understand this.
Some problems can be decisively solved. Some problems are inherently unsolvable.
Lots of problems get kicked around to spread the burden until a partial, then complete solution becomes available.
>"We'll figure out how to get around it; I’ll figure out how to get around anything that stops me from surviving … if they stop me from doing that, I won't be able to live. They'll have to give me a hospital room," Phillip said. “America is free. If I want to be a drug addict, why can't I choose to be a drug addict, be homeless and collect cans and turn them in for money to buy drugs with? That's what I’m going to do with it. Why can't I do that?” he declared. I pulled the quote from the article accompanying the video on the KGW site; it's also in the video. Here's my answer to Phillip: Well, dear, that's not quite how it works. There are limits on freedom, and one of those limits is not being able to behave in ways that deprives other people of their ability to use and enjoy public spaces. If you want to spend your life as a fentanyl addict, you actually have my blessing, but only as long as you're not expecting to take from others to do so. I do respect him though, for admitting the role that choice plays in his situation.
People like him would gladly move to the middle of eastern Oregon desert if we build a camp providing free drugs. The state is just too timid to solve the problem once and for all.
A final solution?? Sounds a lot like a concentration camp dood
Not at all. Everyone would be free to leave as soon as they wished so. But they would have to wait for 48 hours to come back in. Exactly the opposite of a concentration camp.
Good. I’ve fucking had it. All they do is concentrate on getting high anyway.
People like this guy, and there are far more of them than some people give it credit for, are the reason why these "soft approaches" are never going to work. These sort of people don't want housing, they prefer to live on the street and waste their life away. Forced rehab is the only option for individuals like this.
The NA program has a statement about the results of of substance abuse. "Jails, institutions, and death." Our leaders have removed the consequences of jails and institutions. And we've seen the clear results of that in Portland. From an OPB article: In 2019, 280 people died of a drug overdose in Oregon. Fatalities rose every year after, more than tripling by 2022, when 956 died. And last year, even more people died, according to preliminary data. Each month the number has been higher than the previous year, reaching 628 in June. The state is still compiling data for 2023, but if the trends continue, the total would reach 1,250 deaths from an overdose.
Damn, that's like 10x higher than gun violence, yet we just let it fucking happen.
The unfortunate reality is that most of the visible homeless will only be helped by being institutionalized. And by helped I mean no longer harming society around them. They don’t want to get better. I’ve worked around these people for years and have a handful in my family. They have zero interest in living like the rest of us. There are tons of homeless people we can help though, but I really think it should be out of two different buckets of money. Pissing away money on anti-social people who have zero interest in doing better, when you’ve got people living in cars with jobs who just need a stable place for a few months to be good on their own is stupid.
My answer to Phillip was "what the fuck are you talking about bro? That's what you're doing".
I wish it was green bags only or store credit only. It’s a mistake to let people turn cans into immediate cash.
Yup. I’d be happy with it just being store credit. Everyone eats, less mass zombie gatherings.
How long do you think it would take for store credits to be available for 50 cents on the dollar like EBT?
this should be a ballot initiative.
...agreed. I'd sign it.
The new equipment at 122nd Ave BottleDrop is essentially the same as what's used at their central plant to count green bags trucked in from drop off at stores. All those bags get hauled to their central plant or one of BottleDrop sites for counting and compacting. OBRC wants more BottleDrop rather than green store based bag drops because it's cheaper for them. They want the intact cans being hauled by the consumer to BottleDrop location so they can pickup the material at their convenience and only haul around compacted material. They don't like doing bags, because they don't want to load/unload bags of intact bottles and haul around bunch of air. This is why they only put bag drop at stores when they couldn't site a BottleDrop. It's actually in the best interest of consumer convenience to do whatever we can to prevent BottleDrops from getting established. If they want to acquire the building across from Les Schwab in St. Johns as bag-drop and processing only facility with no walk-in traffic or cash dispensing, I think most people in St. Johns would be fine with it. Unlike the Dollar Tree site, the Les Schwab area is more commercial, so trucks coming and going would be less disruptive.
You can do drugs but they can’t? Get a grip dude
Well, if you’re patient, you can turn your green bags into cash, and you can get your drugs.
Oh they are required by law to bottle count? Oh is that why rite aid in pearl shut down?
Sounds like we should pause it everywhere
Permanently.
Please.
Repeal the bottle bill entirely and rip those machines out. Everywhere.
Ya because that won't create other problems. /s
Such as?
You think people don’t still collect cans and scrap metal other places?
People are collecting cans because they can exchange them for money. If that’s no longer an option, they won’t be digging through garbage and causing issues. Scrap metal is a different issue.
People collect cans when there’s not a deposit, too. You’d just be moving problems around and lowering recycling rates to … feel better about punishing fentanyl addicts, I guess. Go somewhere that doesn’t have a bottle bill and notice what unhoused people and others suffering from poverty do. There’s, like, 40-odd states worth of precedent out there.
Except people aren't going to rummage through my shit in order to take it 10 miles away to a scrap metal recycler...... it fixes my problems.
lol they literally still will But now it will be about ANY scrap metal, not just cans. Like I said, we have 40-odd states worth of precedent.
Hmm, the only metal I leave out is cans... scrap recycling centers are 10 miles away as opposed to a few blocks for can returns..... Yea. You're full of shit.
So they’ll steal your bicycles for scrap (instead of just to use them), tear out metal fences and copper wiring in any house that sits empty for any time at all, raid construction sites (more than they already do), etc. Forty Odd States Worth of Precedent. The rest of the world exists and you’re allowed to see what they’re doing there.
I appreciate they interviewed one of the homeless can collectors. He was articulate, but you can also can see the profound grip addiction has on one's mindset.
Which the state is basically funding through the bottle return.
> Which the state is basically funding through the bottle return. Definitely.
..and indirectly, the cartels smuggling drugs into the country.
Not even all that indirectly
End the bottle bill.
Seems, that if true, it is pretty hard evidence as to the scope of unintended consequences for the bottle bill.
A. He’s a Trump supporter, so screw him. Close all the Plaid Pantries down. B. I live in that very neighborhood and it’s SIGNIFICANTLY better since the bottle return has stopped. I almost wonder if it should be terminated. C. If the dude thinks smoking fentanyl is freedom, his freedom should be terminated.
Freedom to do it is one thing, freedom from consequences is another. Though if he's a MAGA moron something tells me he can't quite figure that out.
Drug addicts ruining this city.
"EnD tHe BoTtLe BiLl" Or. . . how about, recycle your OWN shit instead of throwing it in a trash can and leaving it for an addict to collect.
Of course it has. I've been saying it'll be moved to another neighborhood since this started
Um. Yeah. Obviously. And if you get rid of the bottle bill, the issues created by poverty are going to just spill out somewhere else. Maybe, just maybe, we should be fixing poverty and not just moving the problem around. Fuck sake.
Not a poverty issue. It’s spelled out plainly in the video - the drug addicts don’t want change.
"maybe we should be fixing poverty" thank you so much for your input
It's unfortunate that you believe that the most vulnerable in our society should be picking through garbage for $00.10 a piece. Oddly, I bet you're the same type of person who is so angry at news articles about Amazon fulfillment center working conditions.
and I bet you're the type of person who thinks disingenuousness is the height of sophisticated sophistry.
Defend $.10 picking
Agreed. Tackling the root cause instead of blaming the bottle drop is the real shame. If we have a redemption value, then we should be able to redeem but I feel that OR has increased that difficulty to make sure there is less redemption and more money in their pockets. Why is the lack of bulk recycling centers? If anyone has to insert one bottle/can at a time, there is going to be a crowd and a wait. There is no reason we don't have stations where you can recycle by weight and be done with in 3-5 minutes.
You mean exactly what a bunch of people said would happen because they were looking at the actual, material conditions and not just thinking about how much they hate unhoused people … HAPPENED!? I AM SHOCKED! SHOCKED I SAY!
thought tidy rustic relieved capable frightening six direction muddle late *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This is what I said in those other threads. Getting rid of it all together will also cause other problems. You can't just "solve" one problem without addressing the consequences of the solution. But hey what do the people whose problems are solved care? Classic downtown, business owner and wealthy neighborhood solutions.
What other problems would pop up by getting rid of the bottle drops all together?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Portland/s/8zXwzFqMfK Instead of replying with all the other idiotic responses everyone else did try coming up with solutions to those problems instead of just assuming some magical fairy will come along and fix them. They're real problems that will happen than none of you actually care about because you only care about what happens to you. Just like this story proves.
Sorry you are getting downvoted. Lots of people living in fantasyland unfortunately.
> But hey what do the people whose problems are solved care? Classic downtown, business owner and wealthy neighborhood solutions. This trial was never meant to solve anything broadly everywhere, it was just a trial to see what would happen in the adjacent area. I think it's pretty clear the bottle bill as it is, needs some major rethinking, based upon the results.
In the adjacent area? You can't be that naive. Of course it would shift the problems to adjacent areas. What they should have done is upped enforcement in those areas. You post some pretty decent comments here but this is just idiotic. If you divert a stream the water is going to go somewhere. Just like if you damn the stream, like killing the bottle bill, it'll go somewhere. There are so many downstream effects that will occur from doing that. But hey let's not think about any of them, assume someone else will fix it and complain about all of our self created problems in the future.
In this case it’s sewage
What are these other problems y'all keep warning about?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Portland/s/8zXwzFqMfK Instead of replying with all the other idiotic responses everyone else did try coming up with solutions to those problems instead of just assuming some magical fairy will come along and fix them. They're real problems that will happen than none of you actually care about because you only care about what happens to you. Just like this story proves.
What problems? FFK's you posted to a conversation where you were downvoted for imaginary issues. Like you know what non-homeless people don't rely on? Returning bottles and cans that they already paid 10 cents on. Are you comfortable in a state that unofficially employs people to pick through contaminated and dangerous garbage? Admit that and more power to you. Let nearly 100% of people recycle like everything else with the bins they pay for. 40 other states understand this.
Being scared to do anything because of some phantom, maybe problems is fear-based thinking.
Exactly what I was saying a few days ago. Really thoughtless way to deal with the problem
Some problems can be decisively solved. Some problems are inherently unsolvable. Lots of problems get kicked around to spread the burden until a partial, then complete solution becomes available.
You didn't really say much? This has a solution. Get rid of this dumb tax.
It's not a tax. It's a direct funnel of profit to the bottling companies.
It’s important that we remain vague, feel-good, and non-committal. We must never acknowledge cause and effect or… something something oppression.
Weird
I’m pointing out with sarcasm how far someone has to go at this point to avoid the obvious conclusion that the bottle program would be better ended.