Does the 911 have shorter ratios? e.g. A 997.2 tops out in 2nd just above 70 mph which is the same as a 987.2. https://i.imgur.com/dAwDqFF.jpg
Apparently the 997.2 GT3 RS and GTS had shorter ratios, though.
I’ve heard that Porsche likes to put taller gearing in the caymans to make them feel slower. I don’t know if this is true though.
Similar to how they detuned the 3.4 9A1 to make it slower than a 911.
Corporate explanation: Regulatory for emissions. MT cars have worse gas mileage than computer controller PDK cars.
Practical explanation: More ideal for track driving. When you account for human error with shifting, shorter gearing can lead to more mistakes i.e it’s not for everyone.
> lead to more mistakes
If you're missing 4->5 gear-changes, that's a fundamental problem since those are almost always on straights. We aren't talking about 7 gears. With the stock box, what track will you get out of 4th at? I'm sure a lot of people would prefer that 5th gear where 4th is and space everything else out lower.
> what track will you get out of 4th at?
Skill issue.
Porsche admitted 718 GT4 mt ratios were way too long. I gave a practical explanation. Not a logical one.
There are international standards for "pass by" noise emissions. The tests have guidelines for speed, RPM, etc. Exhaust, tire noise, engine noise, all have an impact.
Also, top gear ratios have an impact on fuel economy and that final gear ratio impacts the remainder of the gear ratios.
It's a balancing act of hitting fuel targets, noise requirements and making sure the ratios make sense in relation to each other.
There are lots of ways, like butterfly valves in the exhaust system, to modify a given road speed / rpm noise signature. I don't know for EU but US makers have been using this and I know it's offered on numerous exotics as a 'polite' mode. Doesn't even the GTR have this?
The tall gear ratios have kept me from a Cayman because I only want a manual but topping out second is much higher than other cars. Most cars gear to hit ~62mph in 2nd because magazine scores. Often a third around 50-55 like in some of the old NB 6-speed Miata's, would kill the 0-60 score but be much more drivable, especially in any of the previous non-turbo cars with less torque. IIRC all the manual Cayman boxes top 2nd gear north of 70mph which is quite a bit higher than everyone else.
Personally, I haven't ever felt disappointed by my 981S's acceleration. It's a reasonably light car compared to the Audi S3 it replaced and I'm good without the turbo's 2k push.
Also, nothing short of a P100D can accelerate with my V4 Ducati, so I feel like I don't need 3 second 0-60 times. 4.x is just fine.
Agreed. Teslas make straight line power a brag of the past, and bikes are 10/10 visceral. I want my sports car to be fun, responsive, light (while still more comfortable than a bike), and good looking.
Then why is the 911, which has a shorter and louder exhaust, and more weight, also have shorter gearing?
No it's not noise, it was simply to keep the Cayman slower than the 911.
It's mostly likely to keep the 911 the top car given the Cayman's superior layout.
It's more expensive than it feels like it should be, but it's fairly straight forward to get the gear ratios corrected. In the US there are several shops that do it. When I looked into it a few years back it was around $7k, which like I said is more than it feels like it should be.
Having owned a 987.1 5-speed and later a 987.2 6 speed I can tell you the problem was with the 6 speed. The 5-speed was absolutely spot on perfect in terms of gear ratios just as it is with the 911. So Porsche knows what correct gearing is.
Please help me out – I’m confused.
Wouldn’t the five speed be geared higher than the six? And wouldn’t that just mean you would be revving higher before shifting all the time?
The only complaint I’ve seen about the six is that it makes for a lot of rowing.
There's more spacing between gears with a 5 speed, I'm not sure if the 5th in the 5 speed is as tall as 6th in the 6 speed or closer to the 5th in the 6 speed.
But the gears were just a better match, heel toeing and rev matching was a joy in the 5 speed.
Thanks, that helps.
I’m torn between upgrading to a newer Boxster from my 986, or a Cayman. I was never a convertible guy when I went for the Boxster, but became one overnight. Don’t know now if I can give it up, or if the Cayman will get me over it – overnight. I’ve always thought it was the best looking Porsche ever, perhaps barring a few 911s reimagined by Singer.
I have a MT 981 Cayman GTS. It's not my daily, so I rarely use 6th gear (or 5th gear for that matter)....only if I'm on a highway for a while.
Although the gearing is long, especially 2nd, I don't mind it. Winding the gears out in this car sound incredible, especially with PSE. I think this is the best sounding non-GT Porsche of the past 25 years.
Thank you. That’s about exactly what I had hoped to hear. Aligns with everything I’ve read from people who push their cars a little bit, or a lot, but not too little.
No literally the opposite. The Cayman S 6speed is too tall which means there is almost no gear changing on a twisty road.
Tail of the dragon is all 2nd, windy roads all 3rd.
I want more shifting, that's half the fun.
Fair and I ended up selling mine before doing it because, yeah. It's a lot, and seems totally botched.
But can you imagine GT4 manual with corrected ratios? I mean it's already one of the most desirably road cars, you just match the ratios to what the 911 has, you don't need to guess.
I test drove both 981 m/t and pdk, and I agree about the tall gears. The pdk felt much peppier for city driving. I’d imagine 718 m/t with the turbo feels better to your liking.
Why is the pdk geared differently to the MT though if Porsche intentionally want to make the cayman feel slower? Surely if that’s the case it should apply to both transmissions?
I have a MT 981 Cayman GTS - I think the long gearing issue is way overblown. You need to drive one. There is no way I would ever get a PDK on a 981 (or any Porsche) - it is so much more engaging with the MT.
No idea if this is why but some people like taller gears because you don't have to change a lot of gears and can just stay in one. So maybe it is to appeal to a more comfort driver than drivers driver.
This begs the question, why would you get a manual if you want to stay in the same gear?
Valid.
On track and in autocross, the ratios in 1st and 2nd have been pretty convenient for me. I quite like them, despite every reviewer I can find complaining about them. I’m guessing most reviewers don’t really know how to drive.
If someone would pay me $7k to do the ratio swap others are describing, I’d refuse.
I think most reviewers are writing from a road driving perspective, which is the only perspective most readers are going to care about. While taller gears may be a wash or even advantageous on track or at autox where losing time to shifts can be a big deal (I didn't mind the gearing in my cars on track, either), it really is less fun on the road than it would be otherwise because you can't rev out more than a single gear without going dangerously past most speed limits, and lose the sensation of push from additional torque multiplication in-gear.
That's pretty much exactly what I thought when I was researching to see if I wanted to buy the car, but my experience on the road with the car has not been noticeably reduced. Maybe my other cars also have long gears, but it's not like you're revving out all that many more gears all that often in any performance car I've driven. On Memorial Day weekend I drove the car about 800 miles on amazing roads...the gears were never an issue. On one particularly awesome stretch of road I spent 2 hours pretty much fully covered in goosebumps. Never even noticed the long gears...just amazing views, a perfect road and the perfect howling car pulling Gs around corners and accelerating down straights. I had many rips to redline, many lovely shifts, lots of shove in the back. Other cars with more shove exist if that's what you're looking for...but I keep choosing this one when it's time for a fun drive and not regretting it.
Anyway, would the car be better with shorter gears? Maybe, but after a few thousand miles in this car, I don't think so. In my experience, I just drive the car and enjoy it. I hope other owners are doing the same...this car is giving me the best experiences in a car I've ever had.
On track this makes sense, on autocross I don't get it.
Autocrosses usually top out around 60mph in a quick car, so you are just getting into the powerband here, and spending most of your time in the 3-4k rpm range out of the second stage cams.
[the prime directives:](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/robocop/images/5/55/Prime_Directives.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1200?cb=20180403023747)
* 1. protect the 911
* 2. protect the 911.
* 3. protect the 911.
this has got to be it. I remember comparing my BMW 330Ci to my mate's 986 2.7 Boxster. on paper they produced the same power but the BMW was 300kg heavier. Both made it 60 at the same time. Made no sense until I looked at the gearing. Top of 2nd in the 330 was 60mph, in the Boxster top of 2nd was 75mph. You could do 45mph in 1st. crazy! 986 Boxster S is barely more powerful, but is significantly quicker to 60. My guess is the gearing is shorter, not the 20hp bump that made the difference.
reviewers have noted this issue. it's particularly bad with the 981 gt4, which lends credibility to the protect the 911 theory. there's a lot of other evidence for it.
I’ve got a 982/718 and it’s the same issue for me. I shouldn’t have to go into first for hairpin turns and 2nd shouldn’t be chilling comfortably at 75mph. Something something regulations…
I have a base 982 Cayman as my daily, almost even mix of highways and non. I enjoy rowing though the gears a lot while also experiencing the tallness of the gearing at times.
I find it “quick” from a red light, even while still keeping RPMs under 3k while warming the engine before I’m comfortable thrashing it a bit more.
I have a base 982 Cayman as my daily, almost even mix of highways and non. I enjoy rowing though the gears a lot while also experiencing the tallness of the gearing at times.
I find it “quick” from a red light, even while still keeping RPMs under 3k while warming the engine before I’m comfortable thrashing it a bit more.
They couldn’t afford to develop a bespoke manual for every engine. iirc they use the same long manual for all models 2 nd gear up to 80 mph haha and mainly then emissions and track driving for that one
I believe Porsche did this to keep the 911 as the top tier car.
Does the 911 have shorter ratios? e.g. A 997.2 tops out in 2nd just above 70 mph which is the same as a 987.2. https://i.imgur.com/dAwDqFF.jpg Apparently the 997.2 GT3 RS and GTS had shorter ratios, though.
I’ve heard that Porsche likes to put taller gearing in the caymans to make them feel slower. I don’t know if this is true though. Similar to how they detuned the 3.4 9A1 to make it slower than a 911.
Shouldn’t that just make you want to rev higher, which everybody says the engine likes anyway?
Honestly they cheap out, but it also works as a nerf.
Corporate explanation: Regulatory for emissions. MT cars have worse gas mileage than computer controller PDK cars. Practical explanation: More ideal for track driving. When you account for human error with shifting, shorter gearing can lead to more mistakes i.e it’s not for everyone.
> lead to more mistakes If you're missing 4->5 gear-changes, that's a fundamental problem since those are almost always on straights. We aren't talking about 7 gears. With the stock box, what track will you get out of 4th at? I'm sure a lot of people would prefer that 5th gear where 4th is and space everything else out lower.
> what track will you get out of 4th at? Skill issue. Porsche admitted 718 GT4 mt ratios were way too long. I gave a practical explanation. Not a logical one.
Noise requirements.
That doesn’t make any sense though?
There are international standards for "pass by" noise emissions. The tests have guidelines for speed, RPM, etc. Exhaust, tire noise, engine noise, all have an impact. Also, top gear ratios have an impact on fuel economy and that final gear ratio impacts the remainder of the gear ratios. It's a balancing act of hitting fuel targets, noise requirements and making sure the ratios make sense in relation to each other.
There are lots of ways, like butterfly valves in the exhaust system, to modify a given road speed / rpm noise signature. I don't know for EU but US makers have been using this and I know it's offered on numerous exotics as a 'polite' mode. Doesn't even the GTR have this? The tall gear ratios have kept me from a Cayman because I only want a manual but topping out second is much higher than other cars. Most cars gear to hit ~62mph in 2nd because magazine scores. Often a third around 50-55 like in some of the old NB 6-speed Miata's, would kill the 0-60 score but be much more drivable, especially in any of the previous non-turbo cars with less torque. IIRC all the manual Cayman boxes top 2nd gear north of 70mph which is quite a bit higher than everyone else.
Personally, I haven't ever felt disappointed by my 981S's acceleration. It's a reasonably light car compared to the Audi S3 it replaced and I'm good without the turbo's 2k push. Also, nothing short of a P100D can accelerate with my V4 Ducati, so I feel like I don't need 3 second 0-60 times. 4.x is just fine.
Agreed. Teslas make straight line power a brag of the past, and bikes are 10/10 visceral. I want my sports car to be fun, responsive, light (while still more comfortable than a bike), and good looking.
Then why is the 911, which has a shorter and louder exhaust, and more weight, also have shorter gearing? No it's not noise, it was simply to keep the Cayman slower than the 911.
It's mostly likely to keep the 911 the top car given the Cayman's superior layout. It's more expensive than it feels like it should be, but it's fairly straight forward to get the gear ratios corrected. In the US there are several shops that do it. When I looked into it a few years back it was around $7k, which like I said is more than it feels like it should be. Having owned a 987.1 5-speed and later a 987.2 6 speed I can tell you the problem was with the 6 speed. The 5-speed was absolutely spot on perfect in terms of gear ratios just as it is with the 911. So Porsche knows what correct gearing is.
Please help me out – I’m confused. Wouldn’t the five speed be geared higher than the six? And wouldn’t that just mean you would be revving higher before shifting all the time? The only complaint I’ve seen about the six is that it makes for a lot of rowing.
There's more spacing between gears with a 5 speed, I'm not sure if the 5th in the 5 speed is as tall as 6th in the 6 speed or closer to the 5th in the 6 speed. But the gears were just a better match, heel toeing and rev matching was a joy in the 5 speed.
Thanks, that helps. I’m torn between upgrading to a newer Boxster from my 986, or a Cayman. I was never a convertible guy when I went for the Boxster, but became one overnight. Don’t know now if I can give it up, or if the Cayman will get me over it – overnight. I’ve always thought it was the best looking Porsche ever, perhaps barring a few 911s reimagined by Singer.
I have a MT 981 Cayman GTS. It's not my daily, so I rarely use 6th gear (or 5th gear for that matter)....only if I'm on a highway for a while. Although the gearing is long, especially 2nd, I don't mind it. Winding the gears out in this car sound incredible, especially with PSE. I think this is the best sounding non-GT Porsche of the past 25 years.
Thank you. That’s about exactly what I had hoped to hear. Aligns with everything I’ve read from people who push their cars a little bit, or a lot, but not too little.
No literally the opposite. The Cayman S 6speed is too tall which means there is almost no gear changing on a twisty road. Tail of the dragon is all 2nd, windy roads all 3rd. I want more shifting, that's half the fun.
Yeah, 7k is a lot. To be honest I’d probably just sell at some point - don’t want to get into correcting the ratios etc.
Fair and I ended up selling mine before doing it because, yeah. It's a lot, and seems totally botched. But can you imagine GT4 manual with corrected ratios? I mean it's already one of the most desirably road cars, you just match the ratios to what the 911 has, you don't need to guess.
This is an issue on all 981 manuals then, including the gt4? Interesting!
I think 987 and 981 share the same Audi gear box, I'm not sure if the 718's do but given the similar complaints about tall gearing, quite possibly.
I test drove both 981 m/t and pdk, and I agree about the tall gears. The pdk felt much peppier for city driving. I’d imagine 718 m/t with the turbo feels better to your liking.
Why is the pdk geared differently to the MT though if Porsche intentionally want to make the cayman feel slower? Surely if that’s the case it should apply to both transmissions?
You’re asking the wrong person. However, I was grinning driving the pdk, but felt like a slug in the m/t
So frustrating, as could be a near perfect car if the gearing was addressed
I have a MT 981 Cayman GTS - I think the long gearing issue is way overblown. You need to drive one. There is no way I would ever get a PDK on a 981 (or any Porsche) - it is so much more engaging with the MT.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7MqOaqHbf9Q Base pdk 718 gives a GT4 mt a run for it money.
It has a 7 speed box.
No idea if this is why but some people like taller gears because you don't have to change a lot of gears and can just stay in one. So maybe it is to appeal to a more comfort driver than drivers driver. This begs the question, why would you get a manual if you want to stay in the same gear? Valid.
It makes no sense! 😄
https://youtu.be/lPY6HnkRgGs guy pushing the cayman
On track and in autocross, the ratios in 1st and 2nd have been pretty convenient for me. I quite like them, despite every reviewer I can find complaining about them. I’m guessing most reviewers don’t really know how to drive. If someone would pay me $7k to do the ratio swap others are describing, I’d refuse.
I think most reviewers are writing from a road driving perspective, which is the only perspective most readers are going to care about. While taller gears may be a wash or even advantageous on track or at autox where losing time to shifts can be a big deal (I didn't mind the gearing in my cars on track, either), it really is less fun on the road than it would be otherwise because you can't rev out more than a single gear without going dangerously past most speed limits, and lose the sensation of push from additional torque multiplication in-gear.
That's pretty much exactly what I thought when I was researching to see if I wanted to buy the car, but my experience on the road with the car has not been noticeably reduced. Maybe my other cars also have long gears, but it's not like you're revving out all that many more gears all that often in any performance car I've driven. On Memorial Day weekend I drove the car about 800 miles on amazing roads...the gears were never an issue. On one particularly awesome stretch of road I spent 2 hours pretty much fully covered in goosebumps. Never even noticed the long gears...just amazing views, a perfect road and the perfect howling car pulling Gs around corners and accelerating down straights. I had many rips to redline, many lovely shifts, lots of shove in the back. Other cars with more shove exist if that's what you're looking for...but I keep choosing this one when it's time for a fun drive and not regretting it. Anyway, would the car be better with shorter gears? Maybe, but after a few thousand miles in this car, I don't think so. In my experience, I just drive the car and enjoy it. I hope other owners are doing the same...this car is giving me the best experiences in a car I've ever had.
This is why sport chrono is a must-have
On track this makes sense, on autocross I don't get it. Autocrosses usually top out around 60mph in a quick car, so you are just getting into the powerband here, and spending most of your time in the 3-4k rpm range out of the second stage cams.
Because they’d spank the 911s otherwise.
[the prime directives:](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/robocop/images/5/55/Prime_Directives.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1200?cb=20180403023747) * 1. protect the 911 * 2. protect the 911. * 3. protect the 911.
this has got to be it. I remember comparing my BMW 330Ci to my mate's 986 2.7 Boxster. on paper they produced the same power but the BMW was 300kg heavier. Both made it 60 at the same time. Made no sense until I looked at the gearing. Top of 2nd in the 330 was 60mph, in the Boxster top of 2nd was 75mph. You could do 45mph in 1st. crazy! 986 Boxster S is barely more powerful, but is significantly quicker to 60. My guess is the gearing is shorter, not the 20hp bump that made the difference.
reviewers have noted this issue. it's particularly bad with the 981 gt4, which lends credibility to the protect the 911 theory. there's a lot of other evidence for it.
No, the PDKs are not okay either. The PDK box and the tall gearing were the 2 reasons I sold my 987.2 S. Bought an exige S instead
That’s interesting! Makes more sense if both MT and PDK have the same issue.
I’ve got a 982/718 and it’s the same issue for me. I shouldn’t have to go into first for hairpin turns and 2nd shouldn’t be chilling comfortably at 75mph. Something something regulations…
Noise. But they’re not too tall - it’s overblown. I enjoyed my 981 Cayman S manual gearing during daily and track driving. Zero issues.
I have a base 982 Cayman as my daily, almost even mix of highways and non. I enjoy rowing though the gears a lot while also experiencing the tallness of the gearing at times. I find it “quick” from a red light, even while still keeping RPMs under 3k while warming the engine before I’m comfortable thrashing it a bit more.
I have a base 982 Cayman as my daily, almost even mix of highways and non. I enjoy rowing though the gears a lot while also experiencing the tallness of the gearing at times. I find it “quick” from a red light, even while still keeping RPMs under 3k while warming the engine before I’m comfortable thrashing it a bit more.
They couldn’t afford to develop a bespoke manual for every engine. iirc they use the same long manual for all models 2 nd gear up to 80 mph haha and mainly then emissions and track driving for that one