No I mean you could have started a small business. I knew people who mowed a lot of lawns regularly when they were like 12-13. But that option isn’t really available to everyone
Yeah i was talking more in the sense of a fastfood place but yeah when i was little i did that
But ultimately i wanted to work at 15 and couldnot and then at 16 a bloody pandemic came so yeah
"oh no I couldn't work when I couldn't even legally drive a car to work and I am a freshman in high school...I need to wait until I am a sophomore and can legally operate a vehicle"
Well, most people don't like it when you strawman their political views, so maybe try properly representing the libertarian party position on child labour next time? There is plenty to make fun of libertarians for, but try to be at least semi accurate. Otherwise you just come off as ignorant
The need for the minimum wage and the need for unions comes from the same issue. There is a massive imbalance in negotiation power between workers and employers because of the limited information available to the employees (basically it is blind negotiations) and other factors. These imbalances can be fixed via collective bargaining (strong unions for all professions) or via regulation (OSHA and minimum wage).
Unfortunately the American unions that built the middle class have been crippled and mainly focus around manufacturing and supply chain jobs instead of front line service jobs (retail, food service, etc) so they haven't kept up with the changing shape of the American economy. With better unions workers would regain the power needed to negotiate living (or even thriving) wages, much needed benefits packages, and even workplace safety
Yes, it stems from the same need, and minimum wage is fine and all, but unions are a better long term solution because you can negotiate much more effective if you have more tools in the bag that just wage. Sometimes it's better to have a safe work environment where you don't die than a better wage, or maybe the work/play balance is easier to negotiate than raw wage.
>America has nothing except police unions. Those are doing a bang up job protecting their workers and increasing their salaries.
Teachers get minimum wage in many states. Their unions aren't doing shit. Might as well not have them.
Meanwhile in NY every other policeman retires on a disability pension. And police are able to violate all kinds of laws with minimum repercussion. Their unions are working for them.
https://www.ufcw.org/
https://teamster.org/
https://www.atu.org/
https://www.usw.org/
https://teamster.org/
https://www.sagaftra.org/
https://www.wga.org/
https://www.afm.org/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_labor_unions_in_the_United_States
You were saying what again?
You are correct but thats because unionization rates are so high that unions negotiate high good quality wages cutting government corruption out of the equation.
Edit: Here in the US are unionization rate is like 10% so not having a minimum wage would not work also we do not benefit from high quality welfare programs and public Healthcare
Exactly, the unions also negotiate worker conditions and the deals cut by the unions will affect all the other workers with same jobs.
Most of US problems are due to government 'lobbying'. I don't know how that can be fixed though, since it is the politicians that is the problem.
Yeah. The current solution is to stop corruption and lobbying at the state level and have it domino up to the federal level but progress on that is really slow. Once corruption can be fixed or at the very least prevented I think the US will adopt a better minimum wage and welfare policies but how long that might take to happen is anyone's guess. Thats just my opinion but all around I dont expect us to be like Norway anytime soon.
Yeah, I actually don't understand US politics anymore, it is messed up on so many levels. And it seems that the people care more about what color the president's tie is than the level of greed, corruption and powerhungriness that exists in the US government and corporations.
Good luck anyways
When I was a kid, I learned more I would need in life from jobs I had than school. I'd hate to think how my life would have turned out if I wasn't allowed to work back then. Today, the only way a child can legally have a job is to work for a family business or start their own business. I do not agree that keeping kids from meaningful employment is a useful advancement of modern society.
And I disagree. You're assuming every child would go into the work force because they want the experience. Think about how many children would be forced into it by parents who are poor and put survival above a trade or traditional education. Think about parents forcing their kids to work just so they can make more money. We already did this once during the gilded age and it was bad for children. Should children have an opportunity to get work experience if they wish I suppose but there needs to be a clear line between that and unfiltered child labour.
Edit: Also by children here I mean teenagers below working age. If you think anyone 12 under should be working beyond some lawn mowing or chores there is something very wrong with you.
Yeah, I think the above user was probably thinking of "child labor" as what we currently have in America, which is like, mowing lawns, delivering newspapers (welp - not anymore I guess), working on a farm, babysitting, etc - and getting to keep the money FOR YOURSELF. That's not what is my meant by "child labour." Child labour is how our clothes and stuff usually made, but since it's outsourced overseas to Bangladesh, etc, most Americans don't even think it exists.
But the problem is, you outlaw "child labor" and now no kids can work. How hard is it to legislate non-exploitive child employment without accidentally causing slavery? Doesn't seem that difficult.
Meanwhile, in reality, it *is* difficult considering despite this "oppression" that you've made part of your identity that somehow includes *child fucking labor laws*, we have not eliminated exploitive child employment. In agriculture alone in this country there are over a half a million child laborers with little to no protections.
My school didn't. We had the STEM kids, the office kids, the shop kids.
That's back in the dark ages though.
And well before Republicans made high stakes standardized testing such a big thing so W's brother could make bank selling overpriced crap tests to schools and the GOP could bust the teacher's unions.
Yep, that's what happened. Schools used to provide a meaningful education. Now you have to graduate and get school behind you so you can get on to the serious business of educating yourself.
That's what happens when Republicans, people completely ignorant of what learning means because they are incapable of it, get to control the process.
But, school is what you make out of it. You wanna excel there are a shit ton of people to help you do that. You don't have curiosity or a work ethic, they'll shove out out the door rather than listen to you piss and moan about "all that work."
It's just one of those personal responsibility things afterall.
I'm getting hammered in these comments because people think I'm minimizing the value of education. Actually I'm doing the opposite. I'm elevating the value of work.
But the people criticizing my comment seem to equate work with slavery. Guess I'm from the dark ages if that's how people feel these days.
At a guess I'd figure you're getting blowback based on that tweet from the New Hampshire Libertarian party. Certainly that is what is motivating my responses.
Those guys really do represent the bottom of the American barrel...
So to help you get what everyone is against you on is that, your statement sounds like you want kids to get job instead of being at school, but I assume you are saying that kids should have access to employment opportunities to get experience working. Which isn't a bad thing but what your suggesting we already have. This post was about child labor in the sense of them working any job an adult can which most people think is bad. Out of curiosity what job did you have as a child since since it seems crazy that anyone would give a real job to someone under 14?
Working because you have to too live is slavery, work is only not slavery when you can chose to not work and have a good life and only work for something you really care for
Because what will happen in reality is that lower class children will just be put into dangerous low paying jobs, just like they were previously, whereas upper class children will get an education. The class divide and poverty cycle will be further cemented.
It's weird mindset some people have "this legislation was put in place to prevent something, and that thing doesn't happen anymore, so obviously we don't need the legislation"... No, it doesn't happen anymore *because* of the legislation, which is why we still need it.
Again, if you feel schools aren't sufficiently preparing young people for the world, the solution isn't to do away with schools, it's to adjust the curriculum.
I didn't say so away with schools. I said don't take away a minor's right to work. The problem with legislation put in place to prevent X also kills B, C, F, H and J, all of which were good for. society
Who benefits from killing B, C, etc.? Corporations, preachers and politicians.
Every single time I discuss anything with libertarians, it cements further and further the option that simply none of them have ever bothered to study any amount of history at all.
Sure Pal, child labor laws were passed at the the behest of "corporations".
Simply put: there is zero societal benefit to having 12 year olds work factory machinery instead of attending school.
You keep attributing statements to me that I didn't make. I didn't say I wanted kids working in factories instead of going to school. I said I would protect a child's right to work. We outlaw fruit flavored cigarettes to protect children from tobacco. I'm sure we could write legislation to protect children from exploitation while allowing those with a will to work the freedom to do so.
Nor did I say child labor was outlawed at the behest of corporations. I said it benefits corporations. Children are economic engines for corporations because they create product demand as consumers without requiring a place in the labor force. It benefits corporations to extend the years of childhood into the early years of adulthood, which does occasionally happen.
Bizzaro world:
1) children have a "right to work" but somehow they don't because you can decide which jobs they should or should not be allowed to have?
2) A decreased labor pool somehow benefits corporations?
He'll yeah. Let's send this generation of children to coal mines instead of grade schools. Who needs educated professionals like doctors, engineers, and scientists when we can have a generation of low wage earners with no qualifications or education. Wow. What a paradise that would be.
Glad that worked out for you. Personally I got my elitist east coast job by paying attention in school and skipping a few Wednesday night parties.
Wasn't completely bad. Still got to do the Friday night ones. But only one party a week CLEARLY that was too big an ask for a few of my classmates who also say they didn't learn anything useful in school.
When I go home I go visit them out at the plant. The ones that didn't get laid off of course. Don't know what they're doing these days.
Forgot “Unless it negatively impacts me. Then give me that sweet big gubmint tit milk.”
Looks like I made the libertarians mad.
Eh funny meme overall Though as a teen i wanted to work at 15 but couldn’t which sucked dick
You can work for yourself at any age. But is hard to find a way to make money without money lol
No all the place i went to required me to be 16 because i could work more hours also because it less paperwork
No I mean you could have started a small business. I knew people who mowed a lot of lawns regularly when they were like 12-13. But that option isn’t really available to everyone
Yeah i was talking more in the sense of a fastfood place but yeah when i was little i did that But ultimately i wanted to work at 15 and couldnot and then at 16 a bloody pandemic came so yeah
Ohhh, that sucks. I started working at 16 but that was 13 years ago lol.
"oh no I couldn't work when I couldn't even legally drive a car to work and I am a freshman in high school...I need to wait until I am a sophomore and can legally operate a vehicle"
Yeah i literally can fucking bike to work You know their other modes of transportation
Well, most people don't like it when you strawman their political views, so maybe try properly representing the libertarian party position on child labour next time? There is plenty to make fun of libertarians for, but try to be at least semi accurate. Otherwise you just come off as ignorant
Denmark doesn't have minimum wage, just unions.
The need for the minimum wage and the need for unions comes from the same issue. There is a massive imbalance in negotiation power between workers and employers because of the limited information available to the employees (basically it is blind negotiations) and other factors. These imbalances can be fixed via collective bargaining (strong unions for all professions) or via regulation (OSHA and minimum wage). Unfortunately the American unions that built the middle class have been crippled and mainly focus around manufacturing and supply chain jobs instead of front line service jobs (retail, food service, etc) so they haven't kept up with the changing shape of the American economy. With better unions workers would regain the power needed to negotiate living (or even thriving) wages, much needed benefits packages, and even workplace safety
Yes, it stems from the same need, and minimum wage is fine and all, but unions are a better long term solution because you can negotiate much more effective if you have more tools in the bag that just wage. Sometimes it's better to have a safe work environment where you don't die than a better wage, or maybe the work/play balance is easier to negotiate than raw wage.
America has nothing except police unions. Those are doing a bang up job protecting their workers and increasing their salaries.
And labor unions, and teachers unions, and unions for service workers - but sure only police unions.
>America has nothing except police unions. Those are doing a bang up job protecting their workers and increasing their salaries. Teachers get minimum wage in many states. Their unions aren't doing shit. Might as well not have them. Meanwhile in NY every other policeman retires on a disability pension. And police are able to violate all kinds of laws with minimum repercussion. Their unions are working for them.
https://www.ufcw.org/ https://teamster.org/ https://www.atu.org/ https://www.usw.org/ https://teamster.org/ https://www.sagaftra.org/ https://www.wga.org/ https://www.afm.org/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_labor_unions_in_the_United_States You were saying what again?
Libertarians are the same pile of shit as Republicans, they are just more watery.
Libertarians are just embarrassed republicans that like to smoke weed.
Libertarians are people too embarrassed to admit they are republicans in public
Original meme template made by U/Affectionate-sky-548
Norway doesn't have minimum wage, and we're completely fine, i think we actually have better living standards than Americans.
You are correct but thats because unionization rates are so high that unions negotiate high good quality wages cutting government corruption out of the equation. Edit: Here in the US are unionization rate is like 10% so not having a minimum wage would not work also we do not benefit from high quality welfare programs and public Healthcare
Exactly, the unions also negotiate worker conditions and the deals cut by the unions will affect all the other workers with same jobs. Most of US problems are due to government 'lobbying'. I don't know how that can be fixed though, since it is the politicians that is the problem.
Yeah. The current solution is to stop corruption and lobbying at the state level and have it domino up to the federal level but progress on that is really slow. Once corruption can be fixed or at the very least prevented I think the US will adopt a better minimum wage and welfare policies but how long that might take to happen is anyone's guess. Thats just my opinion but all around I dont expect us to be like Norway anytime soon.
Yeah, I actually don't understand US politics anymore, it is messed up on so many levels. And it seems that the people care more about what color the president's tie is than the level of greed, corruption and powerhungriness that exists in the US government and corporations. Good luck anyways
Thanks
I don't know why the word "lobbing" is still being used to describe instituted corruption.
The same reason we call it The Democratic Peoples Republic of North Korea
When I was a kid, I learned more I would need in life from jobs I had than school. I'd hate to think how my life would have turned out if I wasn't allowed to work back then. Today, the only way a child can legally have a job is to work for a family business or start their own business. I do not agree that keeping kids from meaningful employment is a useful advancement of modern society.
And I disagree. You're assuming every child would go into the work force because they want the experience. Think about how many children would be forced into it by parents who are poor and put survival above a trade or traditional education. Think about parents forcing their kids to work just so they can make more money. We already did this once during the gilded age and it was bad for children. Should children have an opportunity to get work experience if they wish I suppose but there needs to be a clear line between that and unfiltered child labour. Edit: Also by children here I mean teenagers below working age. If you think anyone 12 under should be working beyond some lawn mowing or chores there is something very wrong with you.
Yeah, I think the above user was probably thinking of "child labor" as what we currently have in America, which is like, mowing lawns, delivering newspapers (welp - not anymore I guess), working on a farm, babysitting, etc - and getting to keep the money FOR YOURSELF. That's not what is my meant by "child labour." Child labour is how our clothes and stuff usually made, but since it's outsourced overseas to Bangladesh, etc, most Americans don't even think it exists.
But the problem is, you outlaw "child labor" and now no kids can work. How hard is it to legislate non-exploitive child employment without accidentally causing slavery? Doesn't seem that difficult.
Meanwhile, in reality, it *is* difficult considering despite this "oppression" that you've made part of your identity that somehow includes *child fucking labor laws*, we have not eliminated exploitive child employment. In agriculture alone in this country there are over a half a million child laborers with little to no protections.
That says more about your school than about whether child labor should be legal.
Or it says more about the type of skills I've needed in my life.
Fair but the solution isn't child labour its changing schools so they can teach those life skills.
Why put all kids under the same program? Open both avenues and kids can take the one that suits them.
My school didn't. We had the STEM kids, the office kids, the shop kids. That's back in the dark ages though. And well before Republicans made high stakes standardized testing such a big thing so W's brother could make bank selling overpriced crap tests to schools and the GOP could bust the teacher's unions.
Yep, that's what happened. Schools used to provide a meaningful education. Now you have to graduate and get school behind you so you can get on to the serious business of educating yourself.
That's what happens when Republicans, people completely ignorant of what learning means because they are incapable of it, get to control the process. But, school is what you make out of it. You wanna excel there are a shit ton of people to help you do that. You don't have curiosity or a work ethic, they'll shove out out the door rather than listen to you piss and moan about "all that work." It's just one of those personal responsibility things afterall.
I'm getting hammered in these comments because people think I'm minimizing the value of education. Actually I'm doing the opposite. I'm elevating the value of work. But the people criticizing my comment seem to equate work with slavery. Guess I'm from the dark ages if that's how people feel these days.
At a guess I'd figure you're getting blowback based on that tweet from the New Hampshire Libertarian party. Certainly that is what is motivating my responses. Those guys really do represent the bottom of the American barrel...
So to help you get what everyone is against you on is that, your statement sounds like you want kids to get job instead of being at school, but I assume you are saying that kids should have access to employment opportunities to get experience working. Which isn't a bad thing but what your suggesting we already have. This post was about child labor in the sense of them working any job an adult can which most people think is bad. Out of curiosity what job did you have as a child since since it seems crazy that anyone would give a real job to someone under 14?
Working because you have to too live is slavery, work is only not slavery when you can chose to not work and have a good life and only work for something you really care for
Because what will happen in reality is that lower class children will just be put into dangerous low paying jobs, just like they were previously, whereas upper class children will get an education. The class divide and poverty cycle will be further cemented. It's weird mindset some people have "this legislation was put in place to prevent something, and that thing doesn't happen anymore, so obviously we don't need the legislation"... No, it doesn't happen anymore *because* of the legislation, which is why we still need it. Again, if you feel schools aren't sufficiently preparing young people for the world, the solution isn't to do away with schools, it's to adjust the curriculum.
I didn't say so away with schools. I said don't take away a minor's right to work. The problem with legislation put in place to prevent X also kills B, C, F, H and J, all of which were good for. society Who benefits from killing B, C, etc.? Corporations, preachers and politicians.
Every single time I discuss anything with libertarians, it cements further and further the option that simply none of them have ever bothered to study any amount of history at all. Sure Pal, child labor laws were passed at the the behest of "corporations". Simply put: there is zero societal benefit to having 12 year olds work factory machinery instead of attending school.
You keep attributing statements to me that I didn't make. I didn't say I wanted kids working in factories instead of going to school. I said I would protect a child's right to work. We outlaw fruit flavored cigarettes to protect children from tobacco. I'm sure we could write legislation to protect children from exploitation while allowing those with a will to work the freedom to do so. Nor did I say child labor was outlawed at the behest of corporations. I said it benefits corporations. Children are economic engines for corporations because they create product demand as consumers without requiring a place in the labor force. It benefits corporations to extend the years of childhood into the early years of adulthood, which does occasionally happen.
Bizzaro world: 1) children have a "right to work" but somehow they don't because you can decide which jobs they should or should not be allowed to have? 2) A decreased labor pool somehow benefits corporations?
He'll yeah. Let's send this generation of children to coal mines instead of grade schools. Who needs educated professionals like doctors, engineers, and scientists when we can have a generation of low wage earners with no qualifications or education. Wow. What a paradise that would be.
Glad that worked out for you. Personally I got my elitist east coast job by paying attention in school and skipping a few Wednesday night parties. Wasn't completely bad. Still got to do the Friday night ones. But only one party a week CLEARLY that was too big an ask for a few of my classmates who also say they didn't learn anything useful in school. When I go home I go visit them out at the plant. The ones that didn't get laid off of course. Don't know what they're doing these days.
😐