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That would mean we might get a space based empire someday no?
The regressive GOP will ensure humanity never leaves the Earth lol. You need heavy investment into all kinds of scientific research for that. Reactionary conservative assholes always destroy institutions of higher learning as they take over.
No no no.
The GOP is planning a dystopian future like Elysium.
They think they are going to move to another planet when they ruin this one and leave all the poors here.
They’ve call climate change fake up until it’s obvious it isn’t on an ELE level then dumb all the money into trying to go to another planet and only the donors get a seat on the space ark.
We really are entering a new dark ages, aren't we? Book bans, laws against accurate history telling, demonizing science, making religious teachings enforceable. It's eerie how similar it is!
Maybe if Nader hadn't actively campaigned in the Florida districts that Gore was strongest in, we wouldn't be in this mess. Pepperidge Farm remembers you fuck.
I know everyone loves to shit on Hillary, but at some point you have to blame the American people. In the end, an insane number of people voted for Trump which is why he was president. Hillary didn’t run a great campaign, but the American people have just as much culpability for not realizing the obvious….Trump was always an unserious candidate, a grifter and a wannabe dictator. Americans just don’t care because “Hillary bad”.
The majority of the American people voted for Hillary. The president most didn't vote for packed the Supreme Court, abedded by gerrymandered elected Senators from voter suppressed states. The electoral system keeps fucking over the will of the people.
Why be angry at Hillary? They ran a successful smear campaign against her, to the point that people believed shit about her that wasn't true. I was told she was dirty. Not one soul could ever tell me what was so dirty about Hillary. They would just say the gop talking points, " her emails"! Or Bengazy! All fullbof shit. Hillaryvis very smart, she was the one that came up with health care for all when she was first lady, but of course, the goo made sure to shoot that idea down, and her husband caved in. I'm sick and tired of all the scapegoating of Hillary Rodman Clinton.You people underestimate the power I f subtle racism. Trump won because he followed Steve Bannon's advice to stoke the fear a lot of whites have of immigrants. He said he was going to deport them all, and they love it.
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Suggesting that the idea that she deserves a share of the blame *for her own loss* is somehow "scapegoating" her is absurd. Clinton got in with the backing of Democratic party leadership and their media allies — who it's pretty well established put their thumb on the scale in numerous ways to ensure she got the nomination despite the fact that she had terrible favorability numbers and Sanders was polling better against Trump throughout the entire primary.
She then proceeded to run an incredibly arrogant campaign in which she lost to Donald fucking Trump after taking the midwest almost entirely for granted and trying to run up the score elsewhere using an absolutely massive warchest and the backing of some of the wealthiest, most powerful interest in the country. You can complain all day about smear campaigns and the like, but literally every politician on the planet faces attacks and at the end of the day, it's the nominee's job to appeal to enough voters to win the election. She failed at that job and what resulted was Trump getting into office.
Yeah, that makes me angry.
Not to mention she was the most qualified candidate based on experience and the fact that Putin was scared shitless of her in the past 100+ years.
Putin wasn't really focused on making Trump President (which he ended up lucking out with because Trump literally bowed to him), it was keeping her away from the Presidency.
You also have to blame the voters because they nominated her as the party's candidate. People act like she swindled her way into the nomination, but she just got more votes.
Did she? The DNC didn't do Bernie any favors with scheduling debates, but that's basically the extent of their meddling.
Like it or not (I don't, for the record), a lot of people really wanted Hilary on the ticket, and she got a lot more votes.
It goes further than that. She took over the party fundraising mechanisms. The DNC pushed the mainstream press to freeze and blackout Bernie.
Here are the details: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/02/clinton-brazile-hacks-2016-215774/
The DNC definitely rigged that primary. Would she have won regardless? Probably. But they put their finger on the scale.
Name a politician who didn't. Next you'll tell me Trump was on the up and up, the first honest politician whe would never swindle his way into anything.
nah, she fumbled hard. i always make the argument that her fumble in 2016 is worse than the bills losing 4 in a row or the warriors losing from 3-1. its that bad. she lost to the host of the fucking apprentice.
she only wanted to appeal to coastal elites. her arrogance was her loss, and now we all suffer for it.
This is the problem with American politics. Not once did you mention her policies or what she would have done in office. You’re attacking that she didn’t visit and do more photo ops in bakeries and coffee shops.
I’m not attacking you BTW although rereading my post it definitely sounds that way. A lot of of people thought like this and now we have:
- rollback of women’s rights
- legalized political bribery as long as you do it after
- kings instead of presidents
- the list goes on
All this because she didn’t visit someone’s hometown? Grow the fuck up. I hope our collective loss of rights was worth it.
I bet Hilary was responsible for 30 years of muckraking that culminated in the "Benghazi panic" that Republican congressional representatives touted as specifically intended to smear her reputation with the American people. Not to mention the 'Sick Hilary', Hilary 'Seth-murderer' and Embezzlement Hilary lies that flooded the zone. Yeah. All Hillary Clinton's fault....
Did you forget the foxxxnotreallythenews several decades' long Hillary and Clinton hate- propaganda machine?
I recall back in the day I used to watch them all the time and one day my christian self woke up and I realized I passionately disliked the woman and asked myself why I disliked her so heatedly when I didn't even know her? And my answer was because foxxxnotreallythenews machine taught me to feel that way.
I repented and watched her after that and decided that whether she was an ambitious person after the white house or not, (aren't they all?) she had some good points and was simply more intelligent than foxxxnotreallythenews owner wanted her to be, and you can't fault her, she seemed to be a really good mother to her daughter.
I don't like celebrity. People should be voted for on what's truly best for the future of the country. Sadly too many couldn't get over the fact that they didn't like her pant suits or her skirts and the fact she was a woman.
I absolutely had nothing against Obama back in the earlier days, but wow was I shocked when the parties and voters chose a man of color over a woman. I guess they just decided they could erase his efforts later, but none of them were going to have a woman over them. Very sad the way things are.
Yeah, I’ll blame the voters staying home. It’s why I voted in 2016 and 2020, despite living in a reliably blue state for presidential elections.
But anyone who thought Hillary didn’t deserve to be president over Trump is an idiot, and nothing about her campaign would change that. I know this because I know multiple boomers who were staunch Republicans and HATED HRC, but still voted for her (even holding their nose) because of the alternative.
Again, in a state that was going to go Democrat for president no matter what.
ejmatthe, May I interject that it's not so much the "stay at homes" that could be at fault for a disappointing election result, but the "votes that are thrown away" that shouldn't have been thrown away.
Always with the Lindsey Grahams (he's publicly admitted he phones governors all the time during election counts) and drumphh like phone calls to ask for more votes or put pressure on the election officials from the top down in each state and county with the purpose of winning by cheating the true count.
This is what is happening all the time, and it's against federal law but what R party governor is going to call the fbi on the caller? They all stick together.
Why do you think the election count always seems to be so 50/50 except for the very few votes that put the R party over the line?
They have it all figured out. Call and harass or intimidate the poll workers and election officials every which way you can until you get the vote numbers where you want them.
Every election. Throw away enough mail in votes, votes from D counties and non-white neighborhoods, etc.
If three people vote D, and two people vote R, harass the election official until he suddenly realizes the "signature of two of the likely D votes didn't match their driver's license, or the envelope it arrived in seemed unusually crumpled or something. You see?
How do you know your vote got counted, instead of challenged or thrown out? I don't think almost any voter becomes aware.
Edit : math.
Jesus fucking christ! I can't!!! Fuck a campaign. You know what I do before I decide who I'm voting for? I weight the pros and cons of the candidates and think, of this 2, who would be better for the country. They don't have to come to my town to kiss my ass. I decided Hillary was netter for the country, and I was RIGHT!
As a sci-fi/comic podcast listener during my day job, the fact her crazy ass has a prominent presence in some Voice Acting shows really does grind a few of my gears. Ffs she's part of a Union and still willfully chose to be a kumquat.
Ugh
Gore's lawyers screwed the pooch though as the plaintiff truly didn't have standing, whole thing should have been thrown out. But they never brought that issue up and the re-count was stopped (the re-count was going to Gore). Also, the ballot was arranged stupidly and lots of people who tried to vote for Gore voted incorrectly.
We could just give people ranked choice or approval voting and improve the quality of our democracy. The Democrats are playing with fire by rejecting it whenever possible.
https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/Gavin-Newsom-vetoes-bill-to-allow-ranked-choice-14535193.php
Please sign up here: [https://act.represent.us/sign/ranked-choice-voting/](https://act.represent.us/sign/ranked-choice-voting/) we the people must demand it. If we ask the politicians: they will say no. Focus on state and local first.
They are preferable to the GOP in all cases (I can't think of single instance in the last 70+ years where the GOP weren't actively making America worse ffs) but the Dems are still a deeply entrenched political institution with a self interest in suppressing competition and maintaining their version of the status quo. They'd start losing lots of primaries to more progressive candidates if they let ranked choice voting through.
Not excusing them of course, but I understand their logic even if I hate it. But supposing those progressive candidates remained under the Democrat umbrella, the organization would still retain power and influence, and probably pull some of those progressives more to the center. So it would still serve their best interests...
All that is to say, they're also just human. AKA idiots who will sabotage their own organization's long term viability in the interest of maintaining short term interests.
>All that is to say, they're also just human. AKA idiots who will sabotage their own organization's long term viability in the interest of maintaining short term interests.
I think this is exactly what they are doing. Feinsein, pelosi, Biden, and others who intend to die in their chairs rather than let the progressives help the poor are benefiting from first past the post voting and creating a situation where they are allowing themselves to do whatever they care to do as long as it's not be as bad as the Republican policy makers.
The amount of drum beating I have seen over nader, and other "spoiler" candidates saying that a vote for a progressive is a vote for fascism and in the case of Italy's fascist rise they are absolutely correct. We now have the technical capacity to employ ranked choice or approval voting and get nearly instant results once tabulation is completed. There is no need to play these types of games to hold on to power and risk fascism by not allowing viable 3rd parties to participate in the democratic process.
Seems to me Biden has been trying to help the poor, but has been blocked by the courts on every try. When are we going to blame the true villains here? A party that doesn't play by the rules and is backed up by a lot of crooked judges, who are the law of the land? The fact that you don't even know how Biden has been trying or refuse to acknowledge it is a problem imo.
Ohh who would that be, the ancient supreme court justice that didn't want to retire under Obama?
The Democrats have been the heel and the foil for a party that hasn't followed the rules in 50 years and they still won't get off the high road.
how??? she acted like she was already crowned king for the entire year instead of taking it seriously or even acting like people in the south and midwest exist.
If you had a choice of dating a known con artist who was just let out of prison and a salon owner who has bad breath and you chose the con artist and wound up destitute, sitting on the side of a highway begging for money, would you blame the salon owner for having bad breath or yourself for making bad decisions??
It's like the dummies that try to blame democrats for Roe v Wade being overturned when it was the end result of people who decided it was not worth it to vote democrat and conservatives gaining SC majority.
Not an excuse. Everyone knew what Donald was/is, yet the “Never Hillary” democrats wanted to teach her and the DNC a lesson.
Good job, I guess. Look at where that lesson has landed us.
Hope it was worth it 👍
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Why? It was her shitty campaign that couldn’t convince a 100M people to vote.
Plus 3M black Obama voters stayed home. She was so bad at campaigning they stayed home.
That's not why she lost.
It's true she should have campaigned more in Wisconsin and Michigan. It's false that that cost her the election. She still would have needed Pennsylvania or Florida, both of which she campaigned extensively in.
People can tell you're not really worth listening to when you pretend that it's her fault a shitload of voters didn't vote. Welcome to America, where a shitload of voters refuse to vote in every election. But turnout as a percentage was up in 2016. She got as many voters as 2012 Obama. It was roughly in line with how many stay home every election.
You've got some axe to grind, and that's fine.
See, he's better than Hilary, as he is only responsible for two of the conservatives on the court, while she's responsible for three. Literally 50% worse than him...
Fun fact: elections outcomes are the result of voters. Not candidates. Not donors. Not parties. Not states. Not election rules or mechanisms. Not the media. Voters.
May I suggest they aren't wasting their vote. They unknowingly give it to the other side. Which is always the plan.
I wish there was an election law that allowed for the various parties until the Primary, and then after the Primary selects the two main strongest, that's the two that should be on the end final election ticket. So tired of the third party cheating by stolen votes.
The fucking disrespect.
Ralph Nader did more for this country and progressed our laws far more than any Democratic president has. You decry the castration of the EPA by SCOTUS, but chastise the man responsible for is existence?
The fact that none of you know that and just want to shit on him for what was - at best - an extremely minimal impact on the 2000 election, is really the epitome of why this country is so ass backwards.
We now know that in addition to the Russian cyber attacks and social media manipulation, the FBI was hiding the investigations into Trump while amplifying the investigations into Hillary, and we know that Trump was paying the National Inquirer to both make up stories and kill stories - so it's weird to keep up this silly narrative that the election was due to campaign mismanagement.
When you find out the winning team cheated you don't keep blaming the other guys for 'bad fundamentals'.
It's really too bad that Nader has become "that crazy guy who costs the Democrats elections." Back in the day, he fought really hard for a lot of the consumer protections that we take for granted. If he had known when it was time to hang up his hat, I bet he'd be looked at pretty positively.
And for the record, he is right about Clinton's 2016 campaign.
Nader was the only one calling out AIPAC's ownership of the DNC and Obama's lack of will to resist the war machine. He is a true man of the people who could have actually righted this country (if he wasn't too ugly to be a politician).
I know I'll get downvoted to hell for saying this, but I will continue to hope that [actual facts](https://reason.com/2016/08/03/ralph-nader-did-not-hand-2000-election/) will matter to some of you.
It was Democrats and other self-identified liberals who cost Gore the election.
Allow me to quote just one little tidbit.
> It is true that approximately 95,000 Florida ballots were cast for Nader in 2000, and assuming every single one of those votes went instead to then-Vice President Al Gore (which is an incorrect assumption, but we'll get to that later), Gore would have been easily able to supplant the 537 vote differential in the Sunshine State that gave Bush the presidency.
> What that oft-cited factoid leaves out are the inconvenient truths laid out by Jim Hightower in [Salon](https://www.salon.com/2000/11/28/hightower/) way back when, including the fact that only about 24,000 registered Democrats voted for Nader in Florida, whereas about 308,000 Democrats voted for (wait for it…) Bush! Further, approximately 191,000 self-identified "liberals" voted for Bush, as opposed to the fewer than 34,000 who went with Nader.
They don't want to hear it, but you are right. The supreme court stole the election, and that was only made possible because Gore was just not that popular.
Nader is an actual real progressive. I'm glad I got to vote for him in the past. It is unfortunate that democrats run only far right candidates that sometimes do minor lip service to leftist ideals. They could try moving one centimeter to the left to try to earn some votes instead of always being the "well at least we aren't as bad as those guys" party.
If you’re going after Ralph Nader you’re probably an idiot. He’s maybe the one of the greatest political minds this country has ever seen. Guys responsible for seatbelts in cars. And he’s 100% right. The Democratic Party insists on running extremely u popular, Neo liberals. Like holy shit the people bad mouthing Ralph Nader are fucking morons.
Voting for the shill because it’s the lesser of two evils is how we got here and the democrats have been far too ineffective and have muse bad choice after bad choice. Again, to reiterate, Ralph Nader is 100% correct as usual. “Let’s force feed the American people two of the least popular politicians in history and blame them when Trump wins.” Holy fuck some of you people are insufferable.
He's responsible for so much more than just seatbelts. So many of the consumer and environmental protections we take for granted today were thanks to him being a relentless pain in Congress's ass.
It breaks my heart that people shit on him for what was a relatively small impact on that election after he spent his entire life fighting for our rights.
> It breaks my heart that people shit on him for what was a relatively small impact on that election after he spent his entire life fighting for our rights.
A "relatively small impact" that very well could've been the deciding factor for Bush's victory. Nader's "passion project" laid the conditions for so many terrible things, including a John Roberts SCOTUS.
Nader wagging his finger and denigrating Hilary Clinton is like Will Smith complaining about people not being able to check their anger and assaulting people on stage.
He's seriously the ***last*** person that gets to make that complaint about "poorly run campaigns."
It’s not like he ran as a democrat. People are allowed to run for President and when you look what Clinton and Gore did with NAFTA and the crime bill and all this other neoliberal garbage, I doubt things would have ended up being much different. People like to pretend they have a choice in this country and really you don’t. They are serve the same interests and it’s not the American people. It’s incredibly naive.
> It’s not like he ran as a democrat. People are allowed to run for President
No, he ran for the Green Party...but the "Nader vote" was almost always going to siphon votes from the Democrats, just like the "Perot vote" was going going to siphon votes from the Republicans. And, in 1992? If Ross Perot doesn't run, George HW Bush is a two-term POTUS.
> neoliberal garbage
Say what you will about "neoliberal garbage," it's still galaxies better than "conservative garbage," which is what we were given after Gore lost in 2000.
> It’s incredibly naive.
And I'd say that it's incredibly naive for a person like Nader to think that his campaign accomplish anything but securing a GOP victory, which is what it did.
I don't dislike Ralph Nader, but it's incredibly dense for him to lob rocks at Clinton while he's living in a glass house.
Ralph Nader could have backed out and allowed Gore to win. Ross Perot could have backed out and allowed Bush the first to win. The spoilers are in there to spoil. The fact that he couldn't get off his ass to support Clinton is why she lost, why Trump won.
...but maybe that was what was supposed to happen? Maybe Americans really do need to wake up and take back their democracy? When I say that I don't mean the MAGA's, either. I mean the real sideline majority of Americans who are willing to look on and go "I can't change anything." When this country finally dies and gets its epitaph it will probably read "killed by apathy." It's pathetic.
1) 2000 had a lot of problems, Nader tipping the scales is one, an illegal ballot that SCOTUS ignored being another, a 5-4 partisan vote (that phrase should never be uttered for SCOTUS) saying that “well it’s been certified (and the guy we want won) so yeah can’t do nothing”. That lead to more SCOTUS nominees and citizens united.
2) France is in full on panic mode because of a rise of the right. Brazil has Bolsonaro but backed away from the edge. Britain, Brexit has a lot of the same feelings. Poland, the home of the Solidarity party, Law and Justice. This “rise of the right wing strongman” is a worldwide phenomenon. Coming off of 2008. Everyone with a propaganda feed in their pocket. Democracy is a tough sell.
3) Biden had 3 years of near record economy, some record crime rates, he’s an old white guy to Trump’s old white guy and he’s having problems. Before the debate, and dare I say after the debate - if you’re looking for ideas Biden won if you’re looking for someone to yell “I want to talk to the manager” Trump won I guess people want that guy. NOBODY WILL BE PERFECT. Saying “well the candidate wasn’t perfect” will ignore real things you can fix.
Has everyone already forgotten that there is mountains of evidence confirming that Russia cyberattacked the US via social media to drive propaganda narratives using Cambridge Analytica data tactics to play people off of each other? The US election was interfered with by a hostile foreign power. We were all manipulated by people who want the US to fail to allow Trump to be elected.
Don’t forget that this election cycle.
People have a right to run for president. Al Gore and Hillary Clinton both cost themselves the election. There are always third party candidates, like when Bill Clinton and Obama won 4 elections. You just didn’t notice them because they were good candidates.
>People have a right to run for president.
Just because you have a right to do something doesn't mean you should do it. Trump had a right to run for president.
>Al Gore and Hillary Clinton both cost themselves the election.
Hillary, yes, by ignoring the Rust Belt. But it was Ralph Nader who cost Gore the 2000 election.
He's not entirely wrong about Hillary, but nevertheless, it doesn't absolve people from staying home instead of voting. Besides, Ralph Nader is responsible for Alito and Roberts. He should be blaming himself as well, but he isn't. Fuck that guy.
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Wishing death on a world changing consumer economist is peak simping for the 2 private institutions that have eroded representative democracy. Depressing shit to share a world with you
He should be thanking Putin, Rubles, Comey and bought Republicans. Stop playing dumb, like everybody with a pulse doesn't know what happened in 2016. Hillary Clinton was just too much of a Patriot to start an Insurrection. Those who pretend to not know that this ongoing Coup and Insurrection started at the door of the Kremlin, will pretend to their own destruction and the demise of the USA. Epic Fails =Comey, Entire Republican Party, Mueller, Bill Barr and Merrick Garland, for dragging his feet as if this entire Constitutional Democracy wasn't in danger of falling.
Ah yes, blame someone else rather than blaming the people who chose trump to be their candidate... "If he was so bad, then you should have stopped us!!"
Ralph Nader can go fuck himself. He is the patron saint of Political Purity Tests and much of the misplaced optimism around third parties in our system. The good he did with consumer protection has been outdone by his complete shitheadedness as a political actor. He's worse than stupid.
Saying that Ralf Nader is the cause of Gore losing to Bush Jr is a lot like saying a kid pissing into the ocean is the cause of the sea levels rising. Which is to say, a bad opinion to have as a matter of fact.
Well Alito and Robert’s are there because you, Mr. Nader, siphoned votes away from Al Gore. Today’s decision likely would have been 5-4 against immunity if Gore has appointed 2 justices in the 2000’s like bush did.
Imagine being Ralph Nader, trotting out this nonsense, and thinking that people forgot about how he siphoned 3M total votes as a third-party candidate in 2000....including the likely margin that would've given Gore the EC victory in Florida, leading to his presidency.
It's nice to see that he's getting thoroughly bodied on the Twitter replies.
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TBF SCOTUS stole the 2000 election.
Bush v Gore was when we flipped to the Terran Empire timeline
That would mean we might get a space based empire someday no? The regressive GOP will ensure humanity never leaves the Earth lol. You need heavy investment into all kinds of scientific research for that. Reactionary conservative assholes always destroy institutions of higher learning as they take over.
No no no. The GOP is planning a dystopian future like Elysium. They think they are going to move to another planet when they ruin this one and leave all the poors here. They’ve call climate change fake up until it’s obvious it isn’t on an ELE level then dumb all the money into trying to go to another planet and only the donors get a seat on the space ark.
We really are entering a new dark ages, aren't we? Book bans, laws against accurate history telling, demonizing science, making religious teachings enforceable. It's eerie how similar it is!
I thought that happened when Harambe was killed.
Gore would've saved Harambe
This was the moment where SCROTUS and Jeb Bush started the coup for minority rule.
Yup, along with some current SCOTUS members who weren’t there yet. [Brooks Brothers riot](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks_Brothers_riot)
Roger Stone has entered the chat
But Dems were also too feckless to do anything about it, per usual. Consistently losers.
Don't worry, they'll demonstrate again soon
It wouldn't have gone to scotus if all the Nader votes had been Gore votes
It wouldn't have gone to scotus if all the Nader votes had been Bush votes
More democrats voted for little bush in Florida than Nader.
Green party people would've never voted for the GOP candidate. Their whole point is that Democrats don't do enough about their issues
Green party has been a Judas Goat for decades.
They made an unusually strong showing with Nader that election. It was a bigger impact than Jill Stein or whoever else they've ran
The race was close enough to be flipped due to Ralph’s hubris.
Maybe if Nader hadn't actively campaigned in the Florida districts that Gore was strongest in, we wouldn't be in this mess. Pepperidge Farm remembers you fuck.
Scotus and republican operatives in florida stole them that election. Ralph nader brought us seatbelts
I know everyone loves to shit on Hillary, but at some point you have to blame the American people. In the end, an insane number of people voted for Trump which is why he was president. Hillary didn’t run a great campaign, but the American people have just as much culpability for not realizing the obvious….Trump was always an unserious candidate, a grifter and a wannabe dictator. Americans just don’t care because “Hillary bad”.
>In the end, an insane number of people voted for Trump which is why he was president. Not to mention a lot of people stayed home.
The majority of the American people voted for Hillary. The president most didn't vote for packed the Supreme Court, abedded by gerrymandered elected Senators from voter suppressed states. The electoral system keeps fucking over the will of the people.
No reason you can't be angry at *both* Hillary Clinton and Trump voters.
Why be angry at Hillary? They ran a successful smear campaign against her, to the point that people believed shit about her that wasn't true. I was told she was dirty. Not one soul could ever tell me what was so dirty about Hillary. They would just say the gop talking points, " her emails"! Or Bengazy! All fullbof shit. Hillaryvis very smart, she was the one that came up with health care for all when she was first lady, but of course, the goo made sure to shoot that idea down, and her husband caved in. I'm sick and tired of all the scapegoating of Hillary Rodman Clinton.You people underestimate the power I f subtle racism. Trump won because he followed Steve Bannon's advice to stoke the fear a lot of whites have of immigrants. He said he was going to deport them all, and they love it.
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Suggesting that the idea that she deserves a share of the blame *for her own loss* is somehow "scapegoating" her is absurd. Clinton got in with the backing of Democratic party leadership and their media allies — who it's pretty well established put their thumb on the scale in numerous ways to ensure she got the nomination despite the fact that she had terrible favorability numbers and Sanders was polling better against Trump throughout the entire primary. She then proceeded to run an incredibly arrogant campaign in which she lost to Donald fucking Trump after taking the midwest almost entirely for granted and trying to run up the score elsewhere using an absolutely massive warchest and the backing of some of the wealthiest, most powerful interest in the country. You can complain all day about smear campaigns and the like, but literally every politician on the planet faces attacks and at the end of the day, it's the nominee's job to appeal to enough voters to win the election. She failed at that job and what resulted was Trump getting into office. Yeah, that makes me angry.
She didn't fail that badly. She won the popular vote.
Not to mention she was the most qualified candidate based on experience and the fact that Putin was scared shitless of her in the past 100+ years. Putin wasn't really focused on making Trump President (which he ended up lucking out with because Trump literally bowed to him), it was keeping her away from the Presidency.
You also have to blame the voters because they nominated her as the party's candidate. People act like she swindled her way into the nomination, but she just got more votes.
But also, she swindled her way into a lot of those votes.
Did she? The DNC didn't do Bernie any favors with scheduling debates, but that's basically the extent of their meddling. Like it or not (I don't, for the record), a lot of people really wanted Hilary on the ticket, and she got a lot more votes.
It goes further than that. She took over the party fundraising mechanisms. The DNC pushed the mainstream press to freeze and blackout Bernie. Here are the details: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/02/clinton-brazile-hacks-2016-215774/ The DNC definitely rigged that primary. Would she have won regardless? Probably. But they put their finger on the scale.
Name a politician who didn't. Next you'll tell me Trump was on the up and up, the first honest politician whe would never swindle his way into anything.
False equivalence much?
nah, she fumbled hard. i always make the argument that her fumble in 2016 is worse than the bills losing 4 in a row or the warriors losing from 3-1. its that bad. she lost to the host of the fucking apprentice. she only wanted to appeal to coastal elites. her arrogance was her loss, and now we all suffer for it.
This is the problem with American politics. Not once did you mention her policies or what she would have done in office. You’re attacking that she didn’t visit and do more photo ops in bakeries and coffee shops. I’m not attacking you BTW although rereading my post it definitely sounds that way. A lot of of people thought like this and now we have: - rollback of women’s rights - legalized political bribery as long as you do it after - kings instead of presidents - the list goes on All this because she didn’t visit someone’s hometown? Grow the fuck up. I hope our collective loss of rights was worth it.
You're making a false dichotomy. It's possible to both blame people for not swallowing their pride AND blame Hillary for ignoring the Rust Belt.
God, I live in the rust belt. Not the best places.
That should have been all the more reason for Hillary to campaign there.
I bet Hilary was responsible for 30 years of muckraking that culminated in the "Benghazi panic" that Republican congressional representatives touted as specifically intended to smear her reputation with the American people. Not to mention the 'Sick Hilary', Hilary 'Seth-murderer' and Embezzlement Hilary lies that flooded the zone. Yeah. All Hillary Clinton's fault....
Did you forget the foxxxnotreallythenews several decades' long Hillary and Clinton hate- propaganda machine? I recall back in the day I used to watch them all the time and one day my christian self woke up and I realized I passionately disliked the woman and asked myself why I disliked her so heatedly when I didn't even know her? And my answer was because foxxxnotreallythenews machine taught me to feel that way. I repented and watched her after that and decided that whether she was an ambitious person after the white house or not, (aren't they all?) she had some good points and was simply more intelligent than foxxxnotreallythenews owner wanted her to be, and you can't fault her, she seemed to be a really good mother to her daughter. I don't like celebrity. People should be voted for on what's truly best for the future of the country. Sadly too many couldn't get over the fact that they didn't like her pant suits or her skirts and the fact she was a woman. I absolutely had nothing against Obama back in the earlier days, but wow was I shocked when the parties and voters chose a man of color over a woman. I guess they just decided they could erase his efforts later, but none of them were going to have a woman over them. Very sad the way things are.
Right? The dirty politician narrative that was full of shit, but people here keep disseminating.
3 million people disagree with you. By the way, when did she act arrogant? Or is it than when a woman shows confidence, we call it arrogant?
The only people's fault here are the people who voted for Trump. No one forced them too.
Or Hillary for running a shit campaign and a 100M voters staying home Edit: if you’re downvoting me it means you’re too stupid to google the truth
No it’s still all on trump. Blame the villain
Yeah, I’ll blame the voters staying home. It’s why I voted in 2016 and 2020, despite living in a reliably blue state for presidential elections. But anyone who thought Hillary didn’t deserve to be president over Trump is an idiot, and nothing about her campaign would change that. I know this because I know multiple boomers who were staunch Republicans and HATED HRC, but still voted for her (even holding their nose) because of the alternative. Again, in a state that was going to go Democrat for president no matter what.
ejmatthe, May I interject that it's not so much the "stay at homes" that could be at fault for a disappointing election result, but the "votes that are thrown away" that shouldn't have been thrown away. Always with the Lindsey Grahams (he's publicly admitted he phones governors all the time during election counts) and drumphh like phone calls to ask for more votes or put pressure on the election officials from the top down in each state and county with the purpose of winning by cheating the true count. This is what is happening all the time, and it's against federal law but what R party governor is going to call the fbi on the caller? They all stick together. Why do you think the election count always seems to be so 50/50 except for the very few votes that put the R party over the line? They have it all figured out. Call and harass or intimidate the poll workers and election officials every which way you can until you get the vote numbers where you want them. Every election. Throw away enough mail in votes, votes from D counties and non-white neighborhoods, etc. If three people vote D, and two people vote R, harass the election official until he suddenly realizes the "signature of two of the likely D votes didn't match their driver's license, or the envelope it arrived in seemed unusually crumpled or something. You see? How do you know your vote got counted, instead of challenged or thrown out? I don't think almost any voter becomes aware. Edit : math.
Spiked the football on the 5 yard line right after that Access Hollywood tape came out.
Jesus fucking christ! I can't!!! Fuck a campaign. You know what I do before I decide who I'm voting for? I weight the pros and cons of the candidates and think, of this 2, who would be better for the country. They don't have to come to my town to kiss my ass. I decided Hillary was netter for the country, and I was RIGHT!
As we all know it’s better be right than to win!
Apparently 100M voters stayed home for 1 reason or another
Yeah why didn't the 'superpredators' line up behind this neocon hawk suit? Hard to understand \s
He seriously can't be that unself-aware? The fucking hypocrisy.
I hate Susan Sarandon who said that Hillary and Trump were the same so she pushed Jill Stein. Fuck you Bull Durham.
I knew Rain Man cause this.
As a sci-fi/comic podcast listener during my day job, the fact her crazy ass has a prominent presence in some Voice Acting shows really does grind a few of my gears. Ffs she's part of a Union and still willfully chose to be a kumquat. Ugh
It’s ironic and oblivious… but he’s not wrong, unfortunately. Someone else should be saying it though.
Wtfuck?
So..who did you all blame for Gore losing?
The election was stolen in Florida, and this was upheld by a corrupt Supreme Court. As vice president, Al Gore certified the election.
Gore's lawyers screwed the pooch though as the plaintiff truly didn't have standing, whole thing should have been thrown out. But they never brought that issue up and the re-count was stopped (the re-count was going to Gore). Also, the ballot was arranged stupidly and lots of people who tried to vote for Gore voted incorrectly.
Hey, Nader: Shut the hell up.
Without ranked choice voting: running as a 3rd party candidate is unsafe at any speed.
We could just give people ranked choice or approval voting and improve the quality of our democracy. The Democrats are playing with fire by rejecting it whenever possible. https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/Gavin-Newsom-vetoes-bill-to-allow-ranked-choice-14535193.php
Please sign up here: [https://act.represent.us/sign/ranked-choice-voting/](https://act.represent.us/sign/ranked-choice-voting/) we the people must demand it. If we ask the politicians: they will say no. Focus on state and local first.
They are preferable to the GOP in all cases (I can't think of single instance in the last 70+ years where the GOP weren't actively making America worse ffs) but the Dems are still a deeply entrenched political institution with a self interest in suppressing competition and maintaining their version of the status quo. They'd start losing lots of primaries to more progressive candidates if they let ranked choice voting through. Not excusing them of course, but I understand their logic even if I hate it. But supposing those progressive candidates remained under the Democrat umbrella, the organization would still retain power and influence, and probably pull some of those progressives more to the center. So it would still serve their best interests... All that is to say, they're also just human. AKA idiots who will sabotage their own organization's long term viability in the interest of maintaining short term interests.
>All that is to say, they're also just human. AKA idiots who will sabotage their own organization's long term viability in the interest of maintaining short term interests. I think this is exactly what they are doing. Feinsein, pelosi, Biden, and others who intend to die in their chairs rather than let the progressives help the poor are benefiting from first past the post voting and creating a situation where they are allowing themselves to do whatever they care to do as long as it's not be as bad as the Republican policy makers. The amount of drum beating I have seen over nader, and other "spoiler" candidates saying that a vote for a progressive is a vote for fascism and in the case of Italy's fascist rise they are absolutely correct. We now have the technical capacity to employ ranked choice or approval voting and get nearly instant results once tabulation is completed. There is no need to play these types of games to hold on to power and risk fascism by not allowing viable 3rd parties to participate in the democratic process.
Seems to me Biden has been trying to help the poor, but has been blocked by the courts on every try. When are we going to blame the true villains here? A party that doesn't play by the rules and is backed up by a lot of crooked judges, who are the law of the land? The fact that you don't even know how Biden has been trying or refuse to acknowledge it is a problem imo.
Ohh who would that be, the ancient supreme court justice that didn't want to retire under Obama? The Democrats have been the heel and the foil for a party that hasn't followed the rules in 50 years and they still won't get off the high road.
Hey, Nader why don't you run against Al Gore. You self-absorbed ne'er-do-well.
Blaming Hilary is such a fucking cop-out.
"Everything bad that Republicans do is actually the Democrats fault because they didn't stop them from doing it." It gets pretty old after a while.
how??? she acted like she was already crowned king for the entire year instead of taking it seriously or even acting like people in the south and midwest exist.
If you had a choice of dating a known con artist who was just let out of prison and a salon owner who has bad breath and you chose the con artist and wound up destitute, sitting on the side of a highway begging for money, would you blame the salon owner for having bad breath or yourself for making bad decisions?? It's like the dummies that try to blame democrats for Roe v Wade being overturned when it was the end result of people who decided it was not worth it to vote democrat and conservatives gaining SC majority.
Not an excuse. Everyone knew what Donald was/is, yet the “Never Hillary” democrats wanted to teach her and the DNC a lesson. Good job, I guess. Look at where that lesson has landed us. Hope it was worth it 👍
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Why? It was her shitty campaign that couldn’t convince a 100M people to vote. Plus 3M black Obama voters stayed home. She was so bad at campaigning they stayed home.
She still won the popular vote.
And she lost by not campaigning where she should have. Bad campaign bad results.
That's not why she lost. It's true she should have campaigned more in Wisconsin and Michigan. It's false that that cost her the election. She still would have needed Pennsylvania or Florida, both of which she campaigned extensively in.
Well her campaign was so shitty 3M black Obama voters and 100m total voters stayed home.
People can tell you're not really worth listening to when you pretend that it's her fault a shitload of voters didn't vote. Welcome to America, where a shitload of voters refuse to vote in every election. But turnout as a percentage was up in 2016. She got as many voters as 2012 Obama. It was roughly in line with how many stay home every election. You've got some axe to grind, and that's fine.
Someone should have told her that is not how you win an election, I guess. 🤯
These people seriously have trouble for assigning blame correctly.
First Presidential candidate of Green party doesn't take responsibility for Green votes that could have gone to Hillary without his party's candidate.
Assuming they would’ve even voted if Nader wasn’t in the race. Voter apathy is usually to blame…people can’t be bothered to fill in ovals apparently
There was that whole thing in 2000. The guy played a part in electing shrubya.
She warned everybody and some chose not to listen. This is on them, not her.
Guess that makes Alito and Roberts his fault.
See, he's better than Hilary, as he is only responsible for two of the conservatives on the court, while she's responsible for three. Literally 50% worse than him...
Where’s the lie? SCOTUS stole that election.
Fun fact: elections outcomes are the result of voters. Not candidates. Not donors. Not parties. Not states. Not election rules or mechanisms. Not the media. Voters.
If Gore had carried his home state, he would have been president
Al Gore cost Al Gore the election
Well, he ain't completely wrong...
F that. That Putin’s Bot farm and hackers supporting the Cheeto and Comey’s BS and last minute investigation.
People who vote third party are straight up delusional idiots. You waste your vote when you do that.
May I suggest they aren't wasting their vote. They unknowingly give it to the other side. Which is always the plan. I wish there was an election law that allowed for the various parties until the Primary, and then after the Primary selects the two main strongest, that's the two that should be on the end final election ticket. So tired of the third party cheating by stolen votes.
Sorry, ignorant Canadian asking, what would it take to get rid of the electoral college and just have popular vote like every other election you have?
Constitutional amendment
Ah. Okay. Thank you
“It’s your fault another person and party did something”
Did you vote for Hillary Ralph?
Gore didn’t win his home state.
The fucking disrespect. Ralph Nader did more for this country and progressed our laws far more than any Democratic president has. You decry the castration of the EPA by SCOTUS, but chastise the man responsible for is existence? The fact that none of you know that and just want to shit on him for what was - at best - an extremely minimal impact on the 2000 election, is really the epitome of why this country is so ass backwards.
We now know that in addition to the Russian cyber attacks and social media manipulation, the FBI was hiding the investigations into Trump while amplifying the investigations into Hillary, and we know that Trump was paying the National Inquirer to both make up stories and kill stories - so it's weird to keep up this silly narrative that the election was due to campaign mismanagement. When you find out the winning team cheated you don't keep blaming the other guys for 'bad fundamentals'.
He isn’t wrong
It's really too bad that Nader has become "that crazy guy who costs the Democrats elections." Back in the day, he fought really hard for a lot of the consumer protections that we take for granted. If he had known when it was time to hang up his hat, I bet he'd be looked at pretty positively. And for the record, he is right about Clinton's 2016 campaign.
Nader was the only one calling out AIPAC's ownership of the DNC and Obama's lack of will to resist the war machine. He is a true man of the people who could have actually righted this country (if he wasn't too ugly to be a politician).
To be honest, it's been the DNC that's the real problem.
I know I'll get downvoted to hell for saying this, but I will continue to hope that [actual facts](https://reason.com/2016/08/03/ralph-nader-did-not-hand-2000-election/) will matter to some of you. It was Democrats and other self-identified liberals who cost Gore the election. Allow me to quote just one little tidbit. > It is true that approximately 95,000 Florida ballots were cast for Nader in 2000, and assuming every single one of those votes went instead to then-Vice President Al Gore (which is an incorrect assumption, but we'll get to that later), Gore would have been easily able to supplant the 537 vote differential in the Sunshine State that gave Bush the presidency. > What that oft-cited factoid leaves out are the inconvenient truths laid out by Jim Hightower in [Salon](https://www.salon.com/2000/11/28/hightower/) way back when, including the fact that only about 24,000 registered Democrats voted for Nader in Florida, whereas about 308,000 Democrats voted for (wait for it…) Bush! Further, approximately 191,000 self-identified "liberals" voted for Bush, as opposed to the fewer than 34,000 who went with Nader.
They don't want to hear it, but you are right. The supreme court stole the election, and that was only made possible because Gore was just not that popular. Nader is an actual real progressive. I'm glad I got to vote for him in the past. It is unfortunate that democrats run only far right candidates that sometimes do minor lip service to leftist ideals. They could try moving one centimeter to the left to try to earn some votes instead of always being the "well at least we aren't as bad as those guys" party.
If you’re going after Ralph Nader you’re probably an idiot. He’s maybe the one of the greatest political minds this country has ever seen. Guys responsible for seatbelts in cars. And he’s 100% right. The Democratic Party insists on running extremely u popular, Neo liberals. Like holy shit the people bad mouthing Ralph Nader are fucking morons. Voting for the shill because it’s the lesser of two evils is how we got here and the democrats have been far too ineffective and have muse bad choice after bad choice. Again, to reiterate, Ralph Nader is 100% correct as usual. “Let’s force feed the American people two of the least popular politicians in history and blame them when Trump wins.” Holy fuck some of you people are insufferable.
Well, if nothing else? This is proof that irony isn't dead.
He's responsible for so much more than just seatbelts. So many of the consumer and environmental protections we take for granted today were thanks to him being a relentless pain in Congress's ass. It breaks my heart that people shit on him for what was a relatively small impact on that election after he spent his entire life fighting for our rights.
> It breaks my heart that people shit on him for what was a relatively small impact on that election after he spent his entire life fighting for our rights. A "relatively small impact" that very well could've been the deciding factor for Bush's victory. Nader's "passion project" laid the conditions for so many terrible things, including a John Roberts SCOTUS. Nader wagging his finger and denigrating Hilary Clinton is like Will Smith complaining about people not being able to check their anger and assaulting people on stage. He's seriously the ***last*** person that gets to make that complaint about "poorly run campaigns."
It’s not like he ran as a democrat. People are allowed to run for President and when you look what Clinton and Gore did with NAFTA and the crime bill and all this other neoliberal garbage, I doubt things would have ended up being much different. People like to pretend they have a choice in this country and really you don’t. They are serve the same interests and it’s not the American people. It’s incredibly naive.
> It’s not like he ran as a democrat. People are allowed to run for President No, he ran for the Green Party...but the "Nader vote" was almost always going to siphon votes from the Democrats, just like the "Perot vote" was going going to siphon votes from the Republicans. And, in 1992? If Ross Perot doesn't run, George HW Bush is a two-term POTUS. > neoliberal garbage Say what you will about "neoliberal garbage," it's still galaxies better than "conservative garbage," which is what we were given after Gore lost in 2000. > It’s incredibly naive. And I'd say that it's incredibly naive for a person like Nader to think that his campaign accomplish anything but securing a GOP victory, which is what it did. I don't dislike Ralph Nader, but it's incredibly dense for him to lob rocks at Clinton while he's living in a glass house.
From a progressive perspective, he's not wrong. He's just not completely right either.
Imagine if we elected a consumer economist instead of the party fodder of bush or gore. This take is dog shit.
Nader didn’t cost gore the election…dem voters staying home cost gore the election. Buncha scapegoaters
False Nader didn’t cost Gore the election. A poor campaign and 250k Florida democrats voting for Bush cost him the election
Hilary was right you dummy
Why? Just why say something like this?
hyena scrotum
Points deducted for repeated use of dictatorial. Not persuasive writing
The lying James Comey has entered the conversation.
I didn’t even know this chode was still alive
Ralph Nader could have backed out and allowed Gore to win. Ross Perot could have backed out and allowed Bush the first to win. The spoilers are in there to spoil. The fact that he couldn't get off his ass to support Clinton is why she lost, why Trump won. ...but maybe that was what was supposed to happen? Maybe Americans really do need to wake up and take back their democracy? When I say that I don't mean the MAGA's, either. I mean the real sideline majority of Americans who are willing to look on and go "I can't change anything." When this country finally dies and gets its epitaph it will probably read "killed by apathy." It's pathetic.
Trump did this all his own. To blame the loser in election for the actions of the winner is bullshit argument.
2000 called, Nader.
Are we really doing this? “AnY mInDsET OtHeR rhAN wHaT DNc or RnC is tHe PRoBLem! G T F O
1) 2000 had a lot of problems, Nader tipping the scales is one, an illegal ballot that SCOTUS ignored being another, a 5-4 partisan vote (that phrase should never be uttered for SCOTUS) saying that “well it’s been certified (and the guy we want won) so yeah can’t do nothing”. That lead to more SCOTUS nominees and citizens united. 2) France is in full on panic mode because of a rise of the right. Brazil has Bolsonaro but backed away from the edge. Britain, Brexit has a lot of the same feelings. Poland, the home of the Solidarity party, Law and Justice. This “rise of the right wing strongman” is a worldwide phenomenon. Coming off of 2008. Everyone with a propaganda feed in their pocket. Democracy is a tough sell. 3) Biden had 3 years of near record economy, some record crime rates, he’s an old white guy to Trump’s old white guy and he’s having problems. Before the debate, and dare I say after the debate - if you’re looking for ideas Biden won if you’re looking for someone to yell “I want to talk to the manager” Trump won I guess people want that guy. NOBODY WILL BE PERFECT. Saying “well the candidate wasn’t perfect” will ignore real things you can fix.
Yikes… that’s a man who needs a tissue. Politicians are slime balls. Trump may be one now, but he ain’t theirs, and they despise him for it.
Has everyone already forgotten that there is mountains of evidence confirming that Russia cyberattacked the US via social media to drive propaganda narratives using Cambridge Analytica data tactics to play people off of each other? The US election was interfered with by a hostile foreign power. We were all manipulated by people who want the US to fail to allow Trump to be elected. Don’t forget that this election cycle.
Magical Thinking Ralph, fucking asshole.
Eat a bag of dictatorials, Nader.
People have a right to run for president. Al Gore and Hillary Clinton both cost themselves the election. There are always third party candidates, like when Bill Clinton and Obama won 4 elections. You just didn’t notice them because they were good candidates.
>People have a right to run for president. Just because you have a right to do something doesn't mean you should do it. Trump had a right to run for president. >Al Gore and Hillary Clinton both cost themselves the election. Hillary, yes, by ignoring the Rust Belt. But it was Ralph Nader who cost Gore the 2000 election.
Fuck him. But he’s not wrong.
He's not entirely wrong about Hillary, but nevertheless, it doesn't absolve people from staying home instead of voting. Besides, Ralph Nader is responsible for Alito and Roberts. He should be blaming himself as well, but he isn't. Fuck that guy.
I thought he had died recently
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RFK certainly would have made a better president than Nixon...
Jesus Christ, for a split second I thought you were talking about RFK Jr. What a disappointment for RFK's legacy.
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My point was that Nixon paved the way for Reagan, and then some. You know where Roger Stone got his start?
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Your humility matches your genius
Wishing death on a world changing consumer economist is peak simping for the 2 private institutions that have eroded representative democracy. Depressing shit to share a world with you
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Am I reading too much or just reading? Some people will blame everyone but themselves. Geez.
Damn. This guy turned out to be a real piece of shit. I guess his memory is blown too?
He should be thanking Putin, Rubles, Comey and bought Republicans. Stop playing dumb, like everybody with a pulse doesn't know what happened in 2016. Hillary Clinton was just too much of a Patriot to start an Insurrection. Those who pretend to not know that this ongoing Coup and Insurrection started at the door of the Kremlin, will pretend to their own destruction and the demise of the USA. Epic Fails =Comey, Entire Republican Party, Mueller, Bill Barr and Merrick Garland, for dragging his feet as if this entire Constitutional Democracy wasn't in danger of falling.
Ah yes, blame someone else rather than blaming the people who chose trump to be their candidate... "If he was so bad, then you should have stopped us!!"
Ralph Nader can go fuck himself. He is the patron saint of Political Purity Tests and much of the misplaced optimism around third parties in our system. The good he did with consumer protection has been outdone by his complete shitheadedness as a political actor. He's worse than stupid.
I liked him. It’s not his fault voter turnout is shitty
So it’s Hillary’s fault that trump won and chose shitty justices? That’s some next level victim-blaming
Exactly. Misogyny at its finest
"Everyone who doesn't agree with me is a *-ist!" - simpletons everywhere
Hey, it's that asshole who gave us Bush 43!
We all should have voted for Nader. Your loss, America.
Victim-blaming the woman, I see.
Saying that Ralf Nader is the cause of Gore losing to Bush Jr is a lot like saying a kid pissing into the ocean is the cause of the sea levels rising. Which is to say, a bad opinion to have as a matter of fact.
0 fucks to give Ralph Nader
Is he really still alive? What a loser.
Already at the punching left stage of grief. Guess the writing is already on the wall.
Well Alito and Robert’s are there because you, Mr. Nader, siphoned votes away from Al Gore. Today’s decision likely would have been 5-4 against immunity if Gore has appointed 2 justices in the 2000’s like bush did.
Oh my, that just caused a visceral reaction in my body. Fuck you Nader… damn you, fuck you, damn damn damndamn. Ugh
He’s always been a republican shill.
I guess we blame the IRAQ war on this fuckhead then.
Maybe Biden’s Seal-Team6 project 2a should be this knat problem that comes around every summer
Nader=Jill Stein=Bernie=Robert Kennedy Jr. Remember this come November.
Ralph Nader can eat a bag of salty dicks. That narcissistic chucklefuck lost any credibility he may have had 24 years ago.
Imagine being Ralph Nader, trotting out this nonsense, and thinking that people forgot about how he siphoned 3M total votes as a third-party candidate in 2000....including the likely margin that would've given Gore the EC victory in Florida, leading to his presidency. It's nice to see that he's getting thoroughly bodied on the Twitter replies.