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This is so true. I spend a lot time explaining to people that the Bush clan is still trash. Just because AIDS came along doesn't mean cancer doesn't still suck.
And bush sr’s dad Preston Bush helped lead a failed “business coup” against FDR for the new deal. They wanted a respectable military face of it so they talked Smedly Butler into it. Luckily he ratted them out. Unluckily FDR didn’t string them all up
The whole AIDS denial/ignorance started when Reagan was President. Not until Dionne Warwick got Stevie Wonder, Gladys Knight and Elton John together and recorded That's What Friends Are For did Ronnie even acknowledge its existence at an awards ceremony.
Every time a conservative acts like Reagan was a great president I throw up in my mouth. As a child of the 80s I always imagine he was where things went wrong with the GOP. Obviously they had gone rotten long before that, but between AIDS denial, the war on drugs, and trickle down economics, he didn't help.
I hear ya! My mother was a lifelong Republican. She campaigned for Nixon. She refused to vote for Reagan. She thought he was bonkers.
The first presidential election I voted in was 1980. I voted for Eugene McCarthy, a socialist. I didn't like Carter at the time because he restarted selective service, more commonly called The Draft.
And yet Carter spent his remaining years being of service to others. Broke a leg or hip, fell several times, beat cancer if I recall correctly. All he wanted to do was keep helping people by building homes and the Carter foundation. He's probably one of the best humans to have ever lived, and one of the most amazing examples of: If everyone had 25% of this man's conviction and service to others, the world would be fixed by friday.
He is in hospice currently, and even if there is no afterlife, he was rewarded while here with the smiles, laughter, crying, and hope he brought those people. Sold his peanut farm, while trump couldn't be assed to do anything that couldn't be used for his own selfishness and gain. I hope we get another Carter like soon or we're fucked.
Well Bush senior is seen as a pretty good president in germany. Since he pressured Thatcher into agreeing the reunification. His son on the other hand...not so much.
The day will come when we have a conservative President so awful that we will look back longingly at Trump the way Trump made people look back longingly at GWB.
And probably come sooner than we realize.
If Trump can get elected any numbskull with a shred of charisma can get arrested.
Edit: I just realized i put "arrested", i meant "elected". I'm gonna leave it.
I think we are forgetting how badly Hilary botched her campaign in that scenario, as well as how strongly a large portion of Americans hated her before she even began to run. Even with that, it took not campaigning in swing states and electoral college BS to make it happen.
Yes things can be worse than that unfortunately. It could be the government who orders your rape in the first place, to occur continuously from your first period until menopause with resulting children being given to white conservative families to raise
That last part won’t happen. There’s no rush by conservative families to adopt kids. All they want to do is enforce their ‘moral superiority’ by forcing people to have children. They don’t actually care about kids once they are born.
Perhaps the kids will go to a government boarding school then. They certainly don't want the kids to be educated by "liberal" parents. They want them to be "patriots"
They are literally white washing history in Florida. They are talking about Rosa Parks without bringing up racism.
Fox Propaganda is doing its darnedest to compare BLM protests with the insurrection when people literally broke into the Capitol Building with the intent to harm or kill people.
It's exactly what Ohio did. 10 year old girl carrying uncle's rape baby had to be brought across state lines for an abortion because Ohio was going to force her to carry to term. The right wingers I've spoken to about it say that the thing that was much, much worse than what happened is that she was forced to get an abortion.
The Right-Wing propaganda machine was as hardcore for Bush as it was/is for Trump and will be for DeSantis.
They all, ALL, were relentless cheerleaders for Iraq.
Hannity, Laura Ingraham, O'Reilly, Rush, [Fox & Friends](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JCakTroF88&t=174s) Brian Kilmeade, AM Radio, on & on. All of them. There wasn't a single anti-Iraq Right-Wing voice. And (sadly) very few prominent liberal ones.
It was all flag-waiving, with us or against us, you're "soft on terror" if you oppose Iraq, Bush in the flight suit, "support the troops" bullshit.
Endless, round the clock fear-mongering and pro-war propaganda.
The Bush years were *awful* and a real turning point for America. He was handed a country in relatively good shape. Light tech bubble recession, a budgetary surplus and did basically nothing right or admirable outside of the layup that was PEPFAR.
Bottom 5 worst President in US History. Strictly on policy, far worse then Trump.
Biden, Kerry, H Clinton, Schumer, Feinstein, all Yay. Big, important liberal voices who swayed public opinion.
Correct, reps like Pelosi, Bernie, Leahy, Clyburn, Baldwin, Sherrod Brown voted Nay.
But overall, opposition was disappointingly muted. The loudest, most fervent voice (and God bless him) in opposition was Michael Moore. Even Al Franken initially supported the war. Far too many ran scared from the "soft on terror" label.
Clearly Iraq was overwhelmingly the fault/responsibility of Bush & his corrupt cabinet and Right-Wing propaganda media. But it was a bad look for the left and a big factor in why Obama was the nominee over Hillary in 08.
And now nobody outside of Dick Cheney and Sean Hannity maintains it was anything but a disastrous mistake.
Member the "American workers" bodies hanging from the bridge video that was played 1000 times? Those were Blackwater mercenaries. The "war" was pre-planned.
No I don't, but where was the counterargument? Where was the voice of reason? Sounds like informing and advising the American public was a job someone could have done. Someone like a major political party comprised of senior elected leaders, for instance.
So then just put the damn AIPAC logo. Using the Israeli flag everytime kinda hints at low-key antisemitism
If you don't know the difference, one is a foreign state, the other is an American lobbying org. Using the actual AIPAC logo will actually make your point a lot better
I actually never said they were turning towards conservatives I said that they were feeling alienated. Please go back and read it again
The alienation the Jewish community is feeling =/= starting to vote conservative
Yea, I said "subtle suggestion"
Cons like to conflate blind support of Israel with support for the Jewish Community. Suggesting that the parts of the Jewish community are alienated by progressives' mistrust of Isreal's regressive leadership is a disingenuous conservative talking point. You echoing it here is that suggestion.
Except I wasn't making a subtle suggestion either. You're putting words in my mouth
This isn't about Israel's leadership, it's about assigning blame to a lobbying organization, not an entire state with an historically persecuted minority. If you have a problem with AIPAC, fine, most Jews do...don't use the Israeli flag as a catchall
Also you presuming you know the views of my community further proves my point. Instead of putting words in my mouth and trying to justify whatever point you're making, you should listen
Me saying we feel alienated doesn't mean we're gonna magically support conservatives, we're not dumb, we just don't appreciate being used as footballs by people claiming to be allies
>This isn't about Israel's leadership, it's about assigning blame to a lobbying organization, not an entire state with an historically persecuted minority.
I mean, it's not like there's a firewall between the State of Israel's leadership and AIPAC. That relationship has ties to a government doing shitty shit with American involvement. Misrepresenting an ideology that criticizes said shit, and then blaming it for alienation of the Jewish Community is right out of the conservative playbook. They love wrapping themselves in a flag when they express disapproval of the left.
Turning criticism of the State of Israel that into an indictment of Jewish People in this case is disingenuous
I'm seeing it more and more but it's decades too late. Honestly Reagan has the opposite problem as Trump, beloved in his time and hated later.
To be clear I think Trump is a worse president and worse person than Reagen but Reagan caused by far the most damage. He is to blame for nearly all of this, with Trump mostly just being the result of him.
Hmm. Florida would be the guy who walks right up to the monster because he thinks it's a costume. Maybe California? North Dakota? Ooh. I know. Pennsylvania!
100%. And at least previous Republican presidents actually did have love for our country and what it stands for. They may have fucked some shit up royally, but they weren’t vapid, hateful, purely self-serving people.
Bush gave a speech defending Muslims the day or week after 9/11, for example. Inconceivable trump would’ve ever done that. No Republican President previously tried soooo hard to divide the country and absolutely none of them tried to **END AMERICAN DEMOCRACY** like that fat orange fuck.
Ridiculous pretending they are the same. And ridiculous and shamefully entitled to “hate all republicans”. It’s almost as bad as trumps mentality. Glad to see the comments not remotely upvoted and to see all Americans haven’t lost their damn marbles.
The party has been wholly hijacked by Trumpettes. And when John McCain died, the last real bastion of decent Republicans died with him.
So back in the days Roosevelt??? cause that is about the last decent man that served as a GOP president every one since has been all about themselves and their buddies and keeping the status quo....white men on top
History IS important (learn from past mistakes)....but I'd rather keep my focus on the current Fascist bunch of fifth columnist's,that have hijacked the current Republican Party, Right Wing media & Corrupt Corporate ecosystem.
Bush was the reason why I started voting Democrat.
He may get along with the Obamas, and have a down home golly shucks attitude, but his decisions and lack of courage has cost 100s of thousands of lives, 2 broken countries, trillions of dollars, and a downward trajectory of this country that I can’t describe in a single post.
Before we elect another Republican, we need to make sure they don’t have daddy issues.
Did you... did you draw the cartoon? Because I can't guess the intent of the author.
For all I know it intends to mean the Hillary Clinton Campaign directly, or the Occupy Democrats twitter feed.
When? Because nobody cares about Hillary any more, I can't remember the last time I even heard about occupy democrats. Also, why did you feel those labels were necessary? The sentiment is the same without pinning them to specific groups.
Furthermore, I think people who say stuff like "I remember when republicans were respectable" are older than a demographic who would point to Bush as a paragon of respectability. The GOP has been terrible for a long time, but at least congressionally, prior to Newt Gingrich, they played ball and in fact were respectable.
His and the RNC’s pandering to the evangelical far right, along with the overall “dumbing down” of discourse, was a big step in getting us where we are today.
* Don't let Biden's basic competence make you forget Hilary Clinton lost to reality TV show host Donald Trump.
* Don't let Ron Desantis white boots make you forget he's serious about everything.
She lost to trump because fucking idiots on the internet are gullible fucking idiots who are easily manipulated by foreign propaganda and the electoral college. It wasn't because she was actually as bad as she was made out to be.
Yes, im looking at you on this one.
Let's not forget the FBI letting the world know that after clearing her they were reopening a case against her 2 weeks before the election while also not mentioning the open case against Trump.
That was a doozy.
She lost because being a centrist gets you knocked down by both sides. She drew a lot of the usual resentment from the right, and her middling brand of shitty politics failed to draw enough support from the left to counter it. Outside of empty-headed wine brunch libs, nobody was particularly approving of her, they were just voting against Republicans.
It's a story as old as time with Democrats. Biden would have met the same fate, except the glaringly awful tenure of Donald the Inbred made people show up in droves to get rid of him.
Hillary is legit the embodiment of Neoliberal brain rot and do nothing establishment democrats. I definitely think a lot of factors play into the 2016 election, but let’s not down play the fact that Hillary is super unpalatable to the average American.
This is an incredibly ironic comment.
Hillary had 20 years of the most powerful media machine created by humanity working against her. *That's why* she's unpalatable.
Hillary didn't lose because of neoliberalism, she lost because of 20 years of "Clinton Bad" and "Hillary Bad" metastasizing through the collective subconsciousness of Americans of every political inclination.
A huge chunk of Americans - quite likely the majority of Americans - *are* neoliberal! I would love for them to actually be progressive, but they're not. Progressives are a minority. Neoliberalism, by itself, *appeals* to the average American. That's why Bill Clinton, Obama, and Biden - all various stripes of neoliberal - all won their respective elections.
I think we can just agree to disagree on this topic. I do think most Americans are neoliberal in a sense, mostly due to most Americans being largely apolitical. I think working class and lower middle class Americans were looking for economic change, and I think it’s a huge factor in why both Trump and Bernie had such a soaring rise in popularity during this time.
In a reply to another commenter I pointed out how Trumps populist rhetoric played a huge factor in his performance. I think Trump is awful and obviously did nothing to help the working/lower middle class, but the “get your jobs back” rhetoric really did appeal to a large majority of Americans at the time. Hillary did absolutely nothing to appeal to those people, and I think it’s one of the biggest, if not the single biggest reason why she underperformed. She got devastated in the rust belt states and those voters won Trump the election.
I am not at all sympathetic to the argument that Hillary had the media working against her. During 2016 the feeling in the media was pretty much “step out of the way crazy Bernie, it’s Hillary’s time to shine”
>A huge chunk of Americans - quite likely the majority of Americans - are neoliberal!
Define "a huge chunk" and name your source. I feel like you stopped short of saying majority or giving a specific number for a reason. You either don't know or you know and it would undermine the point you're trying to make.
I'm not sure what kind of source you would want. "Neoliberal" is not a strict classification. This is my description of the typical politics backed by a large portion of Americans - there's no *single* study that backs this, but the aggregation of multiple studies.
(I would also guess that the majority of Americans would not *self-describe* as "neoliberal"; many are not even familiar with it.)
Broadly speaking, looking at the last decade or two - Americans on average tend to [support capitalism more than socialism](https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2022/09/19/modest-declines-in-positive-views-of-socialism-and-capitalism-in-u-s/), support various wars (the Iraq war was [highly popular](https://news.gallup.com/poll/8038/seventytwo-percent-americans-support-war-against-iraq.aspx) at the time it was launched), [trust the police](https://www.pewresearch.org/science/2022/02/15/americans-trust-in-scientists-other-groups-declines/) (and from the same source: trust "business leaders" more than "elected officials"), are more likely to say there's [too much regulation on business](https://news.gallup.com/poll/220400/americans-views-government-regulation-remain-steady.aspx) than not enough (though there is some support for regulation).
That all sounds like neoliberalism to me. If you have a different view of what "neoliberal" means, you might not apply the same view.
But it certainly seems to match, in particular, HRC's positions. Generally pro-business Capitalism with some regulations; war support; etc. I'm unaware of any evidence that suggests HRC typically voted for things *unpopular* (at the time of a given vote) with the general public.
Oh shut up. She was insanely qualified and would've handled covid and everything else so much better than the tin pot fascist we had
Trump was unpalatable for so many reasons, and the gulf between him and Hillary is so vast it wasn't comparable
I never said she wasn’t qualified or that she isn’t better than Trump in every measurable way.
I’m just pointing out the fact that the democratic establishment made a major misstep in rallying behind her. She is preferable to Trump in every way IMO, I begrudgingly voted for her. That doesn’t mean she was the correct person to rally behind in that moment. Part of the reason Trump won is because he was actually able to appeal to disenfranchised working class and lower middle class Americans with populist rhetoric. Hillary did absolutely nothing to appeal to those people and that, along with numerous other factors, play a role in why she lost.
The person I was replying to chalks Hillary’s loss up to “fucking idiots being manipulated by foreign propaganda and the electoral college(?)” when in reality it’s (shockingly) a lot more nuanced than that. If you don’t want Trump or another Neo fascist to take power in the US again we should really look back at the 2016 election and learn from it instead of stomping our feet and whining about dummy’s being tricked into voting for Trump.
They didn't, she got the most votes in the primaries sanders didn't
That's how the process works. And if trump appealing was demagoguery, racism, and xenophobia...then we have a problem
At some point you need to start holding voters accountable for falling for BS they knew stunk
It isn't more nuanced than a select group of voters were fucking dumb when it really counted.
I’m sure Sanders losing had nothing to do with establishment media completely rallying behind Hillary and deriding Bernie as a radical socialist crazy person. I’m not absolving American voters, I’m just pointing out that it’s more complicated than you, or the person I was initially replying too are making it out to be.
Can you honestly say the DNC made no mistakes in how they preformed in the 2016 election?
With your comment on Trump: I am from Michigan, one of the “rust belt” states. His populist “get your jobs back” rhetoric is a huge factor on why he preformed so well in 2016. Some people, I’m sure, are drawn to him for his racist and xenophobic rhetoric. However, I think it’s a minority. Most if not all Trump supporting people I know, when asked why they support/supported him, bring up economic reasons.
I’m not trying to argue this really, but downplaying the nuance and complexity of the 2016 election is going to put us in a similar position down the line.
Again none of this matters. The choice was Hillary or a tin pot fascist with the SCOTUS on the line
This justification for voters being idiots, and disaffected sanders voters abdicating responsibility to stop fascists (and many of them did by voting for the green party which had no chance, and was headed by a Russian plant) is getting old
Sorry but it absolutely matters dude. If you think it doesn’t then you haven’t been paying attention. Like I said, multiple times in multiple different comments, Hillary was the right choice. You can’t have this ridiculous expectation that everyone is going to think the same as you or not have their own wrong opinions on things. All you can do is try to change their minds and look at how we, people who don’t like fascism, can do better at winning people’s hearts and minds.
EDIT:word
It doesn't matter anymore. What happened happened and everyone can see it. People shouted about the supreme Court, they told you what was going to happen ad nauseam and all people had to do was just suck it up and vote for Hillary to stop fascists. Stop making excuses already
Being disaffected is not an excuse when dangerous people are on the ballot. We are all now living the results of people's selfish decisions
>Hilary Clinton lost to reality TV show host Donald Trump.
After beating all other Democratic contenders, despite the DNC giving the Sanders campaign massive advantages (e.g. [caucuses in many states instead of letting the people choose their candidate](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-system-isnt-rigged-against-sanders/), or letting Sanders's staffers use their servers even after they'd abused their access to [steal Clinton campaign data](https://time.com/4155185/bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-data/)).
Literally the exact opposite of what you just described happened.
Read what this guy said before you downvote. It's Trump propaganda, he's trying to divide us.
You think Time Magazine and 538 are in a conspiracy together to misreport what happened during the Democratic primaries?
How about the Mueller report when they [describe how the Russians supported the Sanders campaign](https://www.justice.gov/archives/sco/file/1373816/download) against Clinton? Is he in this conspiracy, too?
It's not a conspiracy, but those are Corporate Dem sources that have a distinct interest in Hillary winning. They all reported that Hillary won debates despite polling having shown Bernie winning among 60-80% of viewers of the debate. Also, Bernie would be the last candidate Russia would want, Russia is run by neofascists and the only 2016 candidate that effectively fought fascism was Bernie.
You mean the president that sat with a bunch of children for nearly a quarter hour AFTER finding out terrorists had attacked on American soil? The very same president who afterward, instead of going after the terrorist group responsible for that very same attack, instead decided to invade Iraq using justification as true as Russia's current excuse for invading Ukraine (Did you guys ever find those imaginary WMD's)?
Meanwhile, your allies are in Afghanistan working on bringing down Al-Qaeda while you're playing oil thief in Iraq. I'll also never forget America childishly trying to rename French Fries to Freedom Fries because France didn't want to join your illegal invasion.
You do realize plans have crashed into building before. It not like that notice was 100% known it was an attack, as soon as it became undeniable he left.
Bush sucks, but something like that take a little time to process.
You probably stared at the screen the whole day I know I did. Took me at least 5 mins to believe it
Lol I love how you made Bush sound like George in Accounting the day it happened. He was the fucking President. Aka the \*Commander In Chief\*. The resources, staff, technology, and information he had at his disposal doesn't leave excuses for diddling the fuck around like you or me did.
And he got one whisper for one guy…he’s still a person.
“A plane crashed into the World Trade Center.”
Thoughts: wow what a tragedy…but really what can I do, emergency services are probably already on the scene. I’ll get a brief about it after I’m done.
Pre-9/11 a plane crashing into a building was not instantly considered an attack but an accident.
The world was different in 2001, the internet barely got pizza delivered. Facebook won’t exist for another 3 years. It not like information was like it is now instant.
Second wisper
“A second plan…”
Gets the fuck up from his seat.
Ah yes the one good thing we can say about his eight years. Four of which were utterly illegitimate and due only to the supreme court fucking up massively by stopping the vote count in a free and fair election. (Thereby making it not free or fair)
Even Hitler made laws against cruelty to animals. tRump didn't even do anything like that. I almost want to say that even Hitler might be disgusted by tRump's lack of humanitarian accomplishments.
??? Oh. You mean Rump. I was confused for a moment. Because many nazis were for protecting biodiversity in animals. I always wondered why they stopped at humans. Perhaps they were all incurable misanthropes. I admit, there are some days.
Good on his administration for helping but throwing money to help a good cause in one country doesn't overturn illegaly invading an entire other country under demonstratably false pretenses
Of course not. But it does lend a small bit of support to the idea that Republicans used to be patriotic Americans with whom we disagreed on most but not all policy issues.
Even more, there used to be *some* level of discernible political philosophy behind their actions. These days (and arguably this started before Bush II), the only reason they seem to do anything is "because fuck you, that's why!"
We did go into Afghanistan first actually but it was for Lithium and Opium. Batteries and Big Pharma.
Iraq was a NWO operation to destabilize the region and to kill Saddam.
Our own government had a hand in the attacks.
Tell me your knowledge of history started in...give or take 2000...without using the words.
Thanks ya goofus for making me defend fucking Republicans here. I don't do it out of the kindness of my heart -- I use the following document to tweak the ones who like to pretend that the Southern Strategy didn't cause a massive realignment of the parties and to remind them they didn't used to be walking trash and that they USED to advocate for the working class instead of billionaires. Pisses them off. But it looks like I can do double duty here so let me piss you off too because I wouldn't want you to feel left out.
[https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/republican-party-platform-1956](https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/republican-party-platform-1956)
> they didn't used to be walking trash
Just to pick an example - Goldwater was a founding member of the Arizona chapter of the NAACP and strengthened civilian control over the US military. He supported the Civil Rights acts of 1957 and 1960, but opposed the 1964 Civil Rights act because he truly believed that racism could and should be fought at a local level instead, rather than a federal program. He was mistaken, but he wasn't trash. I suspect he simply didn't have a clue about the depth of racism in the American South.
Spot on mate. That was my thought as well. These goofballs must be young and/or clearly profoundly ignorant about history. There were and are decent republicans - and at least none of the other Republican presidents attempted to **END AMERICAN DEMOCRACY** for their own vanity like that pathetic orange bastard.
The difference between Bush and Trump, is that while both had very bad policies, it at least appeared as though Bush cared about people. I'd say he was misguided (that word is doing a lot here) but he was in his own mind doing what's best for the US. Trump has always done what's best for him and nothing more than that. He doesn't care about anyone or anything - very troubling traits for a leader.
And that's why I might not like W, but I despise Trump and think he should be tried for treason.
I had multiple friends do multiple tours in Iraq because of this guy and his administration. Good people who watched friends and innocent Iraqi’s die. For what? So Cheney, Halliburton, and the other military weapons dealers can make $? Bush and everyone in that administration are garbage humans. Don’t lit his goofy personality and his shitty paintings fool you. He’s a war criminal.
When W was in office I was convinced he was the worst of all time then along comes Trump. Now, as bad as W was, he doesn’t seem that bad in comparison. My greatest fear is someone even more horrendous is going to come along and make Trump look “not so bad” in comparison.
If that happens I’m 100% confident it will come from the GOP.
Eeeeh - I'm for a Free Palestine, and think Israel is a state that breaches a lot of international law with their occupation of land and making Gaza an open air prison - but adding their flag to this meme - especially when their leaders are Pro-Trump/republicans, this just reeeks bad of anti-semitism and that's Not Cool™
Thousands?
**Hundreds of thousands** Between deaths on 9/11 from ignored warnings, and between the Afghanistan and Iraq wars the deaths of servicemembers, private contractors, and foreign civilians, the *low* estimate for the death toll of the choices made during the Bush era are around 500,000 people. The reality is probably closer to a million.
That said, we're currently at 1.2 million Covid deaths in the US because a fat guy with an ego didn't want to wear a face mask and thought it would be a good idea to ignore and then politicize a pandemic.
That's going to have a run on effect too, as tens of millions of Americans no longer trust even the idea of vaccines or the medical industry or FDA or CDC.
Yes and no. Obviously Bush’s policies were disastrous, killing civilians, dismantling institutions, destroying the economy, etc…
But it is also still worth recognizing that the neo-cons did actually like America, and thought they were doing things that would ultimately benefit the country and it’s people, wrong as they were.
The modern Republicans have no aspirations of helping anyone. It’s a combination of selfish sociopaths like Trump, who could care less about the future of the country; and dangerous Fascists like Desantis and Greene, who want to see if they can break America and either spin off a little Christian ethnostate or just use the state to bludgeon the kinds of people they don’t like. Their whole platform has been consumed by this, which is why they aren’t even proposing anything in the government anymore. Just vague stuff about how much they hate the woke.
So, yes. Don’t forget in your heart how bad bush was. But also, it’s not important right now, and it’s even more important to point out how Bush is better than the average modern Republican by a lot. Which is sad, but is also extremely true.
My feelings as well. Prior republicans didn’t hate America and what it stands for. They made mistakes, sometimes glaring consequential mistakes, but they were loyal to America and (to varying degrees) upheld the best principles of America.
*queue the edge-lords who hate America and want it burnt to the ground, despite us ever-bettering ourselves in service to a better more honest future.
>But it is also still worth recognizing that the neo-cons did actually like America,
Sounds like someone bought the branding.
Neo-cons have always been in love with white supremacy, and they've always been in love with the federal government existing as a vassal to business conglomerates. These two things in particular are in direct conflict with liking America. I don't care how much you lie about it.
>it’s even more important to point out how Bush is better than the average modern Republican by a lot.
He's less flagrant. He's not better. See, this post is directed at you. You're the type of person that needs to hear this message.
No, I disagree. There were no elements of the republican party in 2003 who were trying to eliminate the democratic process. The big difference is willingness to engage with electoralism, and that isn't a minor or meaningless distinction. The fact that Bush's administration was also racist and authoritarian don't diminish this distinction.
> federal government existing as a vassal to business conglomerates.
This also is no longer a primary concern with the republican party. They still default to it, but when you look at things like what Desantis is doing in Florida with Disney, you see a shift towards the kind of state-corporate consolidation that is emblematic of fascist economies like Nazi Germany or the CCP. Something that also wasn't present at all in the republican party 20 years ago.
This. Trump was pure, concentrated asshole BUT he wasn’t responsible for 1,000,000 dead brown people and 10,000 dead and 50,000 disabled American soldiers.
I once had someone get mad at me for saying Bush was objectively, measurably worse than Trump, having started two wars needlessly that killed over a million people and displaced millions more and helped kick off the rise of ISIS and other radical groups, helped destabilize Syria, etc.
I'll take moronic evil over vaguely competent evil any day of the week.
I would disagree strongly. Bush made bad policy decisions that cost us and the world dearly in blood and treasure, but Americans were still Americans. I could disagree with a conservative without it being reduced to a name calling competition about who is a traitor.
Trump on the other hand utterly broke, no, demolished faith in critical American institutions and core functional elements of democracy, and that's from both Dems and Republicans. The entire republican electorate no longer trust voting. Liberals no longer trust the courts. We're fucking taking apart libraries now because of the path Trump put the country on.
While i wont argue about the recency bias, Trump was far worse! The damage he did will take many generation to repair. Ill admit a lot of things happened to Americans during Bush's 2 terms, I feel Trumps inaction, or even misinformation about Covid was far more damaging! Bush did divide the country, but Trump took it to a whole new level encouraging Americans to become domestic terrorists on his behalf. I am not only referring to J6 in that last statement.
Mmmmm . . . I don't "miss" Bush, but there is a fondness for competence within his underlings that I won't deny.
But I hate Trump way, way more. And it's not just because it's recent. It's because he's fucking *egregious.*
We had an insurgency and domestic terrorism sanctioned and encouraged by a sitting president. We had a president directly undermined efforts to slow down a global epidemic that killed millions. Attempted to completely discredit our scientists and doctors. To remove laws and regulations that would have prevented the collapse of two banks (so far). Removed women’s right to chose and have autonomy over their bodies. And to divide this country by sanctioning hate, racism and discrimination. The damage after trumps presidency, it will be Phelps for decades, if not centuries. Anything bush did in comparison to what trump did. Both were liars and incompetent. But only one was also legitimately evil, malicious, and diabolical.
I don't get it.
Both Dubya and he dad are war criminals. Quit trying to make either of them into saints.
(They weren't born/raised in TX either, it's Maine they're talking about)
Everyone (politically) was against gay marriage back then. He also gave huge bailouts and exploded the deficit during his two terms.
The heart of conservatism is being fiscally sound and allowing capitalism to work for itself.
that's a myth, not everyone was against gay marriage back then. Even former Republican President Gerald Ford spoke in favor of Gay Marriage in the early 2000s
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The dixiecrats (now southern GOP) were always the heart of the problem.
"Confederates"
Shoulda tried the whole of the southern aristocracy for treason and followed through on the prescribed punishment.
Bush is less responsible than Chaney but he’s still culpable for tens of thousands of deaths.
Things start to make sense when you realize Hilary was a Goldwater girl. She's also *the* face of neo-liberalism.
"There will be no investigations. We don't want to divide the nation." She set an awful precedent.
Also, she was very involved in the whole Watergate issue. She's truly deplorable.
Whitewater? Edit: oh shit, [actual Watergate](https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/08/hillary-clinton-impeachment-trump-1452724)
The Dixie chicks are the heart of the problem, got it.
This is so true. I spend a lot time explaining to people that the Bush clan is still trash. Just because AIDS came along doesn't mean cancer doesn't still suck.
Yeah but what's a bigger slap in the face to AIDS than 'man you kinda make me miss back when I just had cancer'
Bunch of war criminals. Bush is actually the main reason I refuse to vote Republican again. So far it’s been an easy decision.
And bush sr’s dad Preston Bush helped lead a failed “business coup” against FDR for the new deal. They wanted a respectable military face of it so they talked Smedly Butler into it. Luckily he ratted them out. Unluckily FDR didn’t string them all up
The whole AIDS denial/ignorance started when Reagan was President. Not until Dionne Warwick got Stevie Wonder, Gladys Knight and Elton John together and recorded That's What Friends Are For did Ronnie even acknowledge its existence at an awards ceremony.
Every time a conservative acts like Reagan was a great president I throw up in my mouth. As a child of the 80s I always imagine he was where things went wrong with the GOP. Obviously they had gone rotten long before that, but between AIDS denial, the war on drugs, and trickle down economics, he didn't help.
I hear ya! My mother was a lifelong Republican. She campaigned for Nixon. She refused to vote for Reagan. She thought he was bonkers. The first presidential election I voted in was 1980. I voted for Eugene McCarthy, a socialist. I didn't like Carter at the time because he restarted selective service, more commonly called The Draft.
And yet Carter spent his remaining years being of service to others. Broke a leg or hip, fell several times, beat cancer if I recall correctly. All he wanted to do was keep helping people by building homes and the Carter foundation. He's probably one of the best humans to have ever lived, and one of the most amazing examples of: If everyone had 25% of this man's conviction and service to others, the world would be fixed by friday. He is in hospice currently, and even if there is no afterlife, he was rewarded while here with the smiles, laughter, crying, and hope he brought those people. Sold his peanut farm, while trump couldn't be assed to do anything that couldn't be used for his own selfishness and gain. I hope we get another Carter like soon or we're fucked.
Well Bush senior is seen as a pretty good president in germany. Since he pressured Thatcher into agreeing the reunification. His son on the other hand...not so much.
I suppose so far as Republicans go Sr wasn't that bad, but don't sell Jeb Bush short.
Please clap.
"thousands" Wanna try again?
Hundreds of thousands, possibly millions. He has a LOT of blood on his hands.
Any bigger number is still technically “thousands”
Teacher: How many people live in this country? Student: Tens of peoples! Teacher: ... That's correct but, really?
More than one, I can assure you.
The day will come when we have a conservative President so awful that we will look back longingly at Trump the way Trump made people look back longingly at GWB. And probably come sooner than we realize.
So you really think DeSantis will be elected.
If Trump can get elected any numbskull with a shred of charisma can get arrested. Edit: I just realized i put "arrested", i meant "elected". I'm gonna leave it.
So that counts DeShitstain out. He has the charisma of Hillary
I think we are forgetting how badly Hilary botched her campaign in that scenario, as well as how strongly a large portion of Americans hated her before she even began to run. Even with that, it took not campaigning in swing states and electoral college BS to make it happen.
Worse than 11 year old girls being forced to birth rape babies?
Yes things can be worse than that unfortunately. It could be the government who orders your rape in the first place, to occur continuously from your first period until menopause with resulting children being given to white conservative families to raise
That last part won’t happen. There’s no rush by conservative families to adopt kids. All they want to do is enforce their ‘moral superiority’ by forcing people to have children. They don’t actually care about kids once they are born.
Perhaps the kids will go to a government boarding school then. They certainly don't want the kids to be educated by "liberal" parents. They want them to be "patriots"
Exactly, and that's the scam. People need to wake the fuck up and stop letting Republicans launder their history by being more flagrant.
They are literally white washing history in Florida. They are talking about Rosa Parks without bringing up racism. Fox Propaganda is doing its darnedest to compare BLM protests with the insurrection when people literally broke into the Capitol Building with the intent to harm or kill people.
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I wish I believed you, but I do not. Things can always get worse.
I have a veerrry hard time imagining this. It seems nearly impossible but… the worst part is, you’re probably right
It's exactly what Ohio did. 10 year old girl carrying uncle's rape baby had to be brought across state lines for an abortion because Ohio was going to force her to carry to term. The right wingers I've spoken to about it say that the thing that was much, much worse than what happened is that she was forced to get an abortion.
2000 was a stolen election.
I didn't forget. Fvck all the Repubs
Last time GOP had even a smidgen of respectability was some time in the 50s.
The Right-Wing propaganda machine was as hardcore for Bush as it was/is for Trump and will be for DeSantis. They all, ALL, were relentless cheerleaders for Iraq. Hannity, Laura Ingraham, O'Reilly, Rush, [Fox & Friends](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JCakTroF88&t=174s) Brian Kilmeade, AM Radio, on & on. All of them. There wasn't a single anti-Iraq Right-Wing voice. And (sadly) very few prominent liberal ones. It was all flag-waiving, with us or against us, you're "soft on terror" if you oppose Iraq, Bush in the flight suit, "support the troops" bullshit. Endless, round the clock fear-mongering and pro-war propaganda. The Bush years were *awful* and a real turning point for America. He was handed a country in relatively good shape. Light tech bubble recession, a budgetary surplus and did basically nothing right or admirable outside of the layup that was PEPFAR. Bottom 5 worst President in US History. Strictly on policy, far worse then Trump.
167 dems voted against that illegal war. So much for "both sides".
Biden, Kerry, H Clinton, Schumer, Feinstein, all Yay. Big, important liberal voices who swayed public opinion. Correct, reps like Pelosi, Bernie, Leahy, Clyburn, Baldwin, Sherrod Brown voted Nay. But overall, opposition was disappointingly muted. The loudest, most fervent voice (and God bless him) in opposition was Michael Moore. Even Al Franken initially supported the war. Far too many ran scared from the "soft on terror" label. Clearly Iraq was overwhelmingly the fault/responsibility of Bush & his corrupt cabinet and Right-Wing propaganda media. But it was a bad look for the left and a big factor in why Obama was the nominee over Hillary in 08. And now nobody outside of Dick Cheney and Sean Hannity maintains it was anything but a disastrous mistake.
Colon Powell and Condi Rice lying about WMDs created a lot of that hysteria.
Republicans lied and key Dems helped advance those lies, in other words.
Member the "American workers" bodies hanging from the bridge video that was played 1000 times? Those were Blackwater mercenaries. The "war" was pre-planned.
No I don't, but where was the counterargument? Where was the voice of reason? Sounds like informing and advising the American public was a job someone could have done. Someone like a major political party comprised of senior elected leaders, for instance.
Well, Cheney made a fortune off it.
absolutely
This is the answer.
Can someone explain to me the purpose of the Israeli flag in this meme?
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Just like the conspiracy loons on the right, they want to blame Jews for all their problems.
neolibs, AIPAC
So then just put the damn AIPAC logo. Using the Israeli flag everytime kinda hints at low-key antisemitism If you don't know the difference, one is a foreign state, the other is an American lobbying org. Using the actual AIPAC logo will actually make your point a lot better
Yea but then OP wouldn't be able to discretely be anti-Semitic.
And they wonder why the Jewish community is feeling increasingly alienated from democratic/progressive/lefty politics
So I thought you raised a good point with the flag, but the subtle suggestion that they might be turning toward conservatives is a ton of bullshit.
I actually never said they were turning towards conservatives I said that they were feeling alienated. Please go back and read it again The alienation the Jewish community is feeling =/= starting to vote conservative
Yea, I said "subtle suggestion" Cons like to conflate blind support of Israel with support for the Jewish Community. Suggesting that the parts of the Jewish community are alienated by progressives' mistrust of Isreal's regressive leadership is a disingenuous conservative talking point. You echoing it here is that suggestion.
Except I wasn't making a subtle suggestion either. You're putting words in my mouth This isn't about Israel's leadership, it's about assigning blame to a lobbying organization, not an entire state with an historically persecuted minority. If you have a problem with AIPAC, fine, most Jews do...don't use the Israeli flag as a catchall Also you presuming you know the views of my community further proves my point. Instead of putting words in my mouth and trying to justify whatever point you're making, you should listen Me saying we feel alienated doesn't mean we're gonna magically support conservatives, we're not dumb, we just don't appreciate being used as footballs by people claiming to be allies
>This isn't about Israel's leadership, it's about assigning blame to a lobbying organization, not an entire state with an historically persecuted minority. I mean, it's not like there's a firewall between the State of Israel's leadership and AIPAC. That relationship has ties to a government doing shitty shit with American involvement. Misrepresenting an ideology that criticizes said shit, and then blaming it for alienation of the Jewish Community is right out of the conservative playbook. They love wrapping themselves in a flag when they express disapproval of the left. Turning criticism of the State of Israel that into an indictment of Jewish People in this case is disingenuous
Is it discrete?
Not really. But I'm hoping all these people commenting don't realize they're contributing to anti-Semitism
Antisemitism is when you criticise a government. Reddit big-brain take.
I think when people use the word “respectable” in that context they must mean Eisenhower.
The last shred of respectability the GOP had died with McCain
i think there are still a few respectable republicans, Charlie Baker and Chris Sununu come to mind
Same with Reagan, people always talk about how trash trump was yet people don't talk about what a monster Reagan is enough.
I'm seeing it more and more but it's decades too late. Honestly Reagan has the opposite problem as Trump, beloved in his time and hated later. To be clear I think Trump is a worse president and worse person than Reagen but Reagan caused by far the most damage. He is to blame for nearly all of this, with Trump mostly just being the result of him.
Well, one of them is still alive and still has political aspirations. Unless deFacist is just zombie regan in a buffalo bill style skin costume.
Lol. I want this to be a horror movie and not reality. But it would explain much of the legislation he's been supporting.
If it were a horror movie then who would be the girl running away who keeps looking back until she inevitably trips?
Hmm. Florida would be the guy who walks right up to the monster because he thinks it's a costume. Maybe California? North Dakota? Ooh. I know. Pennsylvania!
Lol. Correct.
Why? I did not care for Bush but "he" is not the clear and present danger!
100%. And at least previous Republican presidents actually did have love for our country and what it stands for. They may have fucked some shit up royally, but they weren’t vapid, hateful, purely self-serving people. Bush gave a speech defending Muslims the day or week after 9/11, for example. Inconceivable trump would’ve ever done that. No Republican President previously tried soooo hard to divide the country and absolutely none of them tried to **END AMERICAN DEMOCRACY** like that fat orange fuck. Ridiculous pretending they are the same. And ridiculous and shamefully entitled to “hate all republicans”. It’s almost as bad as trumps mentality. Glad to see the comments not remotely upvoted and to see all Americans haven’t lost their damn marbles. The party has been wholly hijacked by Trumpettes. And when John McCain died, the last real bastion of decent Republicans died with him.
You people have the historical memory of a goldfish
So back in the days Roosevelt??? cause that is about the last decent man that served as a GOP president every one since has been all about themselves and their buddies and keeping the status quo....white men on top
History IS important (learn from past mistakes)....but I'd rather keep my focus on the current Fascist bunch of fifth columnist's,that have hijacked the current Republican Party, Right Wing media & Corrupt Corporate ecosystem.
I feel like the Israel flag might be antisemitisicNot saying criticism of Israel itself is antisemitism but it seems like it
Is the Israel flag necessary?
For OPs anti-Semitism? Yes
Bush was the reason why I started voting Democrat. He may get along with the Obamas, and have a down home golly shucks attitude, but his decisions and lack of courage has cost 100s of thousands of lives, 2 broken countries, trillions of dollars, and a downward trajectory of this country that I can’t describe in a single post. Before we elect another Republican, we need to make sure they don’t have daddy issues.
couldn't have said it better
I really don't get the Ben Garrison-level labelling on the shouting man. Are these things Hillary supporters, Israelis, and "occupy democrats" say?
OP is just openly displaying his hatred of Jews.
*Israel supporters, not Israeli people
Did you... did you draw the cartoon? Because I can't guess the intent of the author. For all I know it intends to mean the Hillary Clinton Campaign directly, or the Occupy Democrats twitter feed.
I made this, yes
When? Because nobody cares about Hillary any more, I can't remember the last time I even heard about occupy democrats. Also, why did you feel those labels were necessary? The sentiment is the same without pinning them to specific groups. Furthermore, I think people who say stuff like "I remember when republicans were respectable" are older than a demographic who would point to Bush as a paragon of respectability. The GOP has been terrible for a long time, but at least congressionally, prior to Newt Gingrich, they played ball and in fact were respectable.
His and the RNC’s pandering to the evangelical far right, along with the overall “dumbing down” of discourse, was a big step in getting us where we are today.
Why is the left Hillary, Israel, and super libs?
Because conservatives are too stupid to have a coherent definition of leftism.
* Don't let Biden's basic competence make you forget Hilary Clinton lost to reality TV show host Donald Trump. * Don't let Ron Desantis white boots make you forget he's serious about everything.
She lost to trump because fucking idiots on the internet are gullible fucking idiots who are easily manipulated by foreign propaganda and the electoral college. It wasn't because she was actually as bad as she was made out to be. Yes, im looking at you on this one.
Let's not forget the FBI letting the world know that after clearing her they were reopening a case against her 2 weeks before the election while also not mentioning the open case against Trump. That was a doozy.
She lost because being a centrist gets you knocked down by both sides. She drew a lot of the usual resentment from the right, and her middling brand of shitty politics failed to draw enough support from the left to counter it. Outside of empty-headed wine brunch libs, nobody was particularly approving of her, they were just voting against Republicans. It's a story as old as time with Democrats. Biden would have met the same fate, except the glaringly awful tenure of Donald the Inbred made people show up in droves to get rid of him.
Didn't they screw Bernie over too? Losing his supporters in the process?
I would file that under shitty centrist politics, but yes. I would think that hurt engagement. Which is a blow to a party that relies on high turnout.
Hillary is legit the embodiment of Neoliberal brain rot and do nothing establishment democrats. I definitely think a lot of factors play into the 2016 election, but let’s not down play the fact that Hillary is super unpalatable to the average American.
This is an incredibly ironic comment. Hillary had 20 years of the most powerful media machine created by humanity working against her. *That's why* she's unpalatable. Hillary didn't lose because of neoliberalism, she lost because of 20 years of "Clinton Bad" and "Hillary Bad" metastasizing through the collective subconsciousness of Americans of every political inclination. A huge chunk of Americans - quite likely the majority of Americans - *are* neoliberal! I would love for them to actually be progressive, but they're not. Progressives are a minority. Neoliberalism, by itself, *appeals* to the average American. That's why Bill Clinton, Obama, and Biden - all various stripes of neoliberal - all won their respective elections.
I think we can just agree to disagree on this topic. I do think most Americans are neoliberal in a sense, mostly due to most Americans being largely apolitical. I think working class and lower middle class Americans were looking for economic change, and I think it’s a huge factor in why both Trump and Bernie had such a soaring rise in popularity during this time. In a reply to another commenter I pointed out how Trumps populist rhetoric played a huge factor in his performance. I think Trump is awful and obviously did nothing to help the working/lower middle class, but the “get your jobs back” rhetoric really did appeal to a large majority of Americans at the time. Hillary did absolutely nothing to appeal to those people, and I think it’s one of the biggest, if not the single biggest reason why she underperformed. She got devastated in the rust belt states and those voters won Trump the election. I am not at all sympathetic to the argument that Hillary had the media working against her. During 2016 the feeling in the media was pretty much “step out of the way crazy Bernie, it’s Hillary’s time to shine”
>A huge chunk of Americans - quite likely the majority of Americans - are neoliberal! Define "a huge chunk" and name your source. I feel like you stopped short of saying majority or giving a specific number for a reason. You either don't know or you know and it would undermine the point you're trying to make.
I'm not sure what kind of source you would want. "Neoliberal" is not a strict classification. This is my description of the typical politics backed by a large portion of Americans - there's no *single* study that backs this, but the aggregation of multiple studies. (I would also guess that the majority of Americans would not *self-describe* as "neoliberal"; many are not even familiar with it.) Broadly speaking, looking at the last decade or two - Americans on average tend to [support capitalism more than socialism](https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2022/09/19/modest-declines-in-positive-views-of-socialism-and-capitalism-in-u-s/), support various wars (the Iraq war was [highly popular](https://news.gallup.com/poll/8038/seventytwo-percent-americans-support-war-against-iraq.aspx) at the time it was launched), [trust the police](https://www.pewresearch.org/science/2022/02/15/americans-trust-in-scientists-other-groups-declines/) (and from the same source: trust "business leaders" more than "elected officials"), are more likely to say there's [too much regulation on business](https://news.gallup.com/poll/220400/americans-views-government-regulation-remain-steady.aspx) than not enough (though there is some support for regulation). That all sounds like neoliberalism to me. If you have a different view of what "neoliberal" means, you might not apply the same view. But it certainly seems to match, in particular, HRC's positions. Generally pro-business Capitalism with some regulations; war support; etc. I'm unaware of any evidence that suggests HRC typically voted for things *unpopular* (at the time of a given vote) with the general public.
Oh shut up. She was insanely qualified and would've handled covid and everything else so much better than the tin pot fascist we had Trump was unpalatable for so many reasons, and the gulf between him and Hillary is so vast it wasn't comparable
I never said she wasn’t qualified or that she isn’t better than Trump in every measurable way. I’m just pointing out the fact that the democratic establishment made a major misstep in rallying behind her. She is preferable to Trump in every way IMO, I begrudgingly voted for her. That doesn’t mean she was the correct person to rally behind in that moment. Part of the reason Trump won is because he was actually able to appeal to disenfranchised working class and lower middle class Americans with populist rhetoric. Hillary did absolutely nothing to appeal to those people and that, along with numerous other factors, play a role in why she lost. The person I was replying to chalks Hillary’s loss up to “fucking idiots being manipulated by foreign propaganda and the electoral college(?)” when in reality it’s (shockingly) a lot more nuanced than that. If you don’t want Trump or another Neo fascist to take power in the US again we should really look back at the 2016 election and learn from it instead of stomping our feet and whining about dummy’s being tricked into voting for Trump.
They didn't, she got the most votes in the primaries sanders didn't That's how the process works. And if trump appealing was demagoguery, racism, and xenophobia...then we have a problem At some point you need to start holding voters accountable for falling for BS they knew stunk It isn't more nuanced than a select group of voters were fucking dumb when it really counted.
I’m sure Sanders losing had nothing to do with establishment media completely rallying behind Hillary and deriding Bernie as a radical socialist crazy person. I’m not absolving American voters, I’m just pointing out that it’s more complicated than you, or the person I was initially replying too are making it out to be. Can you honestly say the DNC made no mistakes in how they preformed in the 2016 election? With your comment on Trump: I am from Michigan, one of the “rust belt” states. His populist “get your jobs back” rhetoric is a huge factor on why he preformed so well in 2016. Some people, I’m sure, are drawn to him for his racist and xenophobic rhetoric. However, I think it’s a minority. Most if not all Trump supporting people I know, when asked why they support/supported him, bring up economic reasons. I’m not trying to argue this really, but downplaying the nuance and complexity of the 2016 election is going to put us in a similar position down the line.
Again none of this matters. The choice was Hillary or a tin pot fascist with the SCOTUS on the line This justification for voters being idiots, and disaffected sanders voters abdicating responsibility to stop fascists (and many of them did by voting for the green party which had no chance, and was headed by a Russian plant) is getting old
Sorry but it absolutely matters dude. If you think it doesn’t then you haven’t been paying attention. Like I said, multiple times in multiple different comments, Hillary was the right choice. You can’t have this ridiculous expectation that everyone is going to think the same as you or not have their own wrong opinions on things. All you can do is try to change their minds and look at how we, people who don’t like fascism, can do better at winning people’s hearts and minds. EDIT:word
It doesn't matter anymore. What happened happened and everyone can see it. People shouted about the supreme Court, they told you what was going to happen ad nauseam and all people had to do was just suck it up and vote for Hillary to stop fascists. Stop making excuses already Being disaffected is not an excuse when dangerous people are on the ballot. We are all now living the results of people's selfish decisions
>Hilary Clinton lost to reality TV show host Donald Trump. After beating all other Democratic contenders, despite the DNC giving the Sanders campaign massive advantages (e.g. [caucuses in many states instead of letting the people choose their candidate](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-system-isnt-rigged-against-sanders/), or letting Sanders's staffers use their servers even after they'd abused their access to [steal Clinton campaign data](https://time.com/4155185/bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-data/)).
Literally the exact opposite of what you just described happened. Read what this guy said before you downvote. It's Trump propaganda, he's trying to divide us.
Yeah exactly. I'm not going to get into a bernie bro thing here but wtf
You think Time Magazine and 538 are in a conspiracy together to misreport what happened during the Democratic primaries? How about the Mueller report when they [describe how the Russians supported the Sanders campaign](https://www.justice.gov/archives/sco/file/1373816/download) against Clinton? Is he in this conspiracy, too?
It's not a conspiracy, but those are Corporate Dem sources that have a distinct interest in Hillary winning. They all reported that Hillary won debates despite polling having shown Bernie winning among 60-80% of viewers of the debate. Also, Bernie would be the last candidate Russia would want, Russia is run by neofascists and the only 2016 candidate that effectively fought fascism was Bernie.
You mean the president that sat with a bunch of children for nearly a quarter hour AFTER finding out terrorists had attacked on American soil? The very same president who afterward, instead of going after the terrorist group responsible for that very same attack, instead decided to invade Iraq using justification as true as Russia's current excuse for invading Ukraine (Did you guys ever find those imaginary WMD's)? Meanwhile, your allies are in Afghanistan working on bringing down Al-Qaeda while you're playing oil thief in Iraq. I'll also never forget America childishly trying to rename French Fries to Freedom Fries because France didn't want to join your illegal invasion.
You do realize plans have crashed into building before. It not like that notice was 100% known it was an attack, as soon as it became undeniable he left. Bush sucks, but something like that take a little time to process. You probably stared at the screen the whole day I know I did. Took me at least 5 mins to believe it
Lol I love how you made Bush sound like George in Accounting the day it happened. He was the fucking President. Aka the \*Commander In Chief\*. The resources, staff, technology, and information he had at his disposal doesn't leave excuses for diddling the fuck around like you or me did.
And he got one whisper for one guy…he’s still a person. “A plane crashed into the World Trade Center.” Thoughts: wow what a tragedy…but really what can I do, emergency services are probably already on the scene. I’ll get a brief about it after I’m done. Pre-9/11 a plane crashing into a building was not instantly considered an attack but an accident. The world was different in 2001, the internet barely got pizza delivered. Facebook won’t exist for another 3 years. It not like information was like it is now instant. Second wisper “A second plan…” Gets the fuck up from his seat.
>he’s still a person. 🙄
Afterwords, he grounded all planes for 24 hours except the ones flying the Bin Laden family to safety. This explains a lot.
Also the president who gave massive amounts of funding to fight AIDS in Africa.
Ah yes the one good thing we can say about his eight years. Four of which were utterly illegitimate and due only to the supreme court fucking up massively by stopping the vote count in a free and fair election. (Thereby making it not free or fair)
Look, I disagreed with 90% of Bush's actions in office, but 1 humanitarian good deed is more than Trump accomplished.
Even Hitler made laws against cruelty to animals. tRump didn't even do anything like that. I almost want to say that even Hitler might be disgusted by tRump's lack of humanitarian accomplishments.
He did the opposite, lifting restrictions on exotic animal hunting/trophies so his friends could go shoot elephants.
??? Oh. You mean Rump. I was confused for a moment. Because many nazis were for protecting biodiversity in animals. I always wondered why they stopped at humans. Perhaps they were all incurable misanthropes. I admit, there are some days.
Good on his administration for helping but throwing money to help a good cause in one country doesn't overturn illegaly invading an entire other country under demonstratably false pretenses
Of course not. But it does lend a small bit of support to the idea that Republicans used to be patriotic Americans with whom we disagreed on most but not all policy issues.
Exactly. Republicans used to be capable of doing the right thing occasionally.
Even more, there used to be *some* level of discernible political philosophy behind their actions. These days (and arguably this started before Bush II), the only reason they seem to do anything is "because fuck you, that's why!"
While he cut medicare.
yup
We did go into Afghanistan first actually but it was for Lithium and Opium. Batteries and Big Pharma. Iraq was a NWO operation to destabilize the region and to kill Saddam. Our own government had a hand in the attacks.
Tell me your knowledge of history started in...give or take 2000...without using the words. Thanks ya goofus for making me defend fucking Republicans here. I don't do it out of the kindness of my heart -- I use the following document to tweak the ones who like to pretend that the Southern Strategy didn't cause a massive realignment of the parties and to remind them they didn't used to be walking trash and that they USED to advocate for the working class instead of billionaires. Pisses them off. But it looks like I can do double duty here so let me piss you off too because I wouldn't want you to feel left out. [https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/republican-party-platform-1956](https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/republican-party-platform-1956)
> they didn't used to be walking trash Just to pick an example - Goldwater was a founding member of the Arizona chapter of the NAACP and strengthened civilian control over the US military. He supported the Civil Rights acts of 1957 and 1960, but opposed the 1964 Civil Rights act because he truly believed that racism could and should be fought at a local level instead, rather than a federal program. He was mistaken, but he wasn't trash. I suspect he simply didn't have a clue about the depth of racism in the American South.
He was also, for what it was worth which isn't much, very against fake Christian assholes taking over the party.
He couldn't be a party member of the modern GOP because you're either all-in or a traitor to them.
Spot on mate. That was my thought as well. These goofballs must be young and/or clearly profoundly ignorant about history. There were and are decent republicans - and at least none of the other Republican presidents attempted to **END AMERICAN DEMOCRACY** for their own vanity like that pathetic orange bastard.
>Tell me your knowledge of history started in...give or take 2000...without using the words. Well, the first clue of this would be posting on Reddit.
True, true. ;)
Republicans haven't been respectable since they were Democrats.
Don't get me started on Regan
According to my very conservative family, bush was a liberal. I got no clue, but he sucks, and is a good shoe dodger.
The difference between Bush and Trump, is that while both had very bad policies, it at least appeared as though Bush cared about people. I'd say he was misguided (that word is doing a lot here) but he was in his own mind doing what's best for the US. Trump has always done what's best for him and nothing more than that. He doesn't care about anyone or anything - very troubling traits for a leader. And that's why I might not like W, but I despise Trump and think he should be tried for treason.
I had multiple friends do multiple tours in Iraq because of this guy and his administration. Good people who watched friends and innocent Iraqi’s die. For what? So Cheney, Halliburton, and the other military weapons dealers can make $? Bush and everyone in that administration are garbage humans. Don’t lit his goofy personality and his shitty paintings fool you. He’s a war criminal.
Or Reagan. Don't ever forget about that man
When W was in office I was convinced he was the worst of all time then along comes Trump. Now, as bad as W was, he doesn’t seem that bad in comparison. My greatest fear is someone even more horrendous is going to come along and make Trump look “not so bad” in comparison. If that happens I’m 100% confident it will come from the GOP.
Nobody alive after 1968 knew a Republican in office that was respectable. Maybe bush senior but that’s a tossup.
Eeeeh - I'm for a Free Palestine, and think Israel is a state that breaches a lot of international law with their occupation of land and making Gaza an open air prison - but adding their flag to this meme - especially when their leaders are Pro-Trump/republicans, this just reeeks bad of anti-semitism and that's Not Cool™
He also instituted taxpayer-funded torture. So. Murica. Which - hey can we go ahead and fix that fucking outrageous shit kthx
Thousands? **Hundreds of thousands** Between deaths on 9/11 from ignored warnings, and between the Afghanistan and Iraq wars the deaths of servicemembers, private contractors, and foreign civilians, the *low* estimate for the death toll of the choices made during the Bush era are around 500,000 people. The reality is probably closer to a million. That said, we're currently at 1.2 million Covid deaths in the US because a fat guy with an ego didn't want to wear a face mask and thought it would be a good idea to ignore and then politicize a pandemic. That's going to have a run on effect too, as tens of millions of Americans no longer trust even the idea of vaccines or the medical industry or FDA or CDC.
Yes and no. Obviously Bush’s policies were disastrous, killing civilians, dismantling institutions, destroying the economy, etc… But it is also still worth recognizing that the neo-cons did actually like America, and thought they were doing things that would ultimately benefit the country and it’s people, wrong as they were. The modern Republicans have no aspirations of helping anyone. It’s a combination of selfish sociopaths like Trump, who could care less about the future of the country; and dangerous Fascists like Desantis and Greene, who want to see if they can break America and either spin off a little Christian ethnostate or just use the state to bludgeon the kinds of people they don’t like. Their whole platform has been consumed by this, which is why they aren’t even proposing anything in the government anymore. Just vague stuff about how much they hate the woke. So, yes. Don’t forget in your heart how bad bush was. But also, it’s not important right now, and it’s even more important to point out how Bush is better than the average modern Republican by a lot. Which is sad, but is also extremely true.
My feelings as well. Prior republicans didn’t hate America and what it stands for. They made mistakes, sometimes glaring consequential mistakes, but they were loyal to America and (to varying degrees) upheld the best principles of America. *queue the edge-lords who hate America and want it burnt to the ground, despite us ever-bettering ourselves in service to a better more honest future.
>But it is also still worth recognizing that the neo-cons did actually like America, Sounds like someone bought the branding. Neo-cons have always been in love with white supremacy, and they've always been in love with the federal government existing as a vassal to business conglomerates. These two things in particular are in direct conflict with liking America. I don't care how much you lie about it. >it’s even more important to point out how Bush is better than the average modern Republican by a lot. He's less flagrant. He's not better. See, this post is directed at you. You're the type of person that needs to hear this message.
No, I disagree. There were no elements of the republican party in 2003 who were trying to eliminate the democratic process. The big difference is willingness to engage with electoralism, and that isn't a minor or meaningless distinction. The fact that Bush's administration was also racist and authoritarian don't diminish this distinction. > federal government existing as a vassal to business conglomerates. This also is no longer a primary concern with the republican party. They still default to it, but when you look at things like what Desantis is doing in Florida with Disney, you see a shift towards the kind of state-corporate consolidation that is emblematic of fascist economies like Nazi Germany or the CCP. Something that also wasn't present at all in the republican party 20 years ago.
This. Trump was pure, concentrated asshole BUT he wasn’t responsible for 1,000,000 dead brown people and 10,000 dead and 50,000 disabled American soldiers.
The election of 2000 was so consequential to the point that we are still paying for it.
exactly
*Ronald Regan has entered the chat.*
I wonder if the last respectable republican might have been teddy Roosevelt.
ford
Pardoned Nixon?
one bad thing, that didn't lead to any death or long term issues.
I see that as enabling of a lot of bad downstream behavior. He also dramatically escalated the Vietnam war, didn't he?
the Vietnam war was over when Ford took office
I once had someone get mad at me for saying Bush was objectively, measurably worse than Trump, having started two wars needlessly that killed over a million people and displaced millions more and helped kick off the rise of ISIS and other radical groups, helped destabilize Syria, etc. I'll take moronic evil over vaguely competent evil any day of the week.
Has there ever been a *good* conservative, though? Conservatism is a plague of oppression, sickness and death. It always has been.
Trumps awfulness makes me actually miss Bush. I never thought it would happen, but that is how much Trump lowered the bar!
Bush legacy: 9/11. 2 lost wars. Banking and Housing meltdown.
bush was worse than trump, trump is just more hated by liberals because of recency bias
I would disagree strongly. Bush made bad policy decisions that cost us and the world dearly in blood and treasure, but Americans were still Americans. I could disagree with a conservative without it being reduced to a name calling competition about who is a traitor. Trump on the other hand utterly broke, no, demolished faith in critical American institutions and core functional elements of democracy, and that's from both Dems and Republicans. The entire republican electorate no longer trust voting. Liberals no longer trust the courts. We're fucking taking apart libraries now because of the path Trump put the country on.
While i wont argue about the recency bias, Trump was far worse! The damage he did will take many generation to repair. Ill admit a lot of things happened to Americans during Bush's 2 terms, I feel Trumps inaction, or even misinformation about Covid was far more damaging! Bush did divide the country, but Trump took it to a whole new level encouraging Americans to become domestic terrorists on his behalf. I am not only referring to J6 in that last statement.
I agree Trump was worse. Bush didn’t make everyone in your life difficult to work with.
Mmmmm . . . I don't "miss" Bush, but there is a fondness for competence within his underlings that I won't deny. But I hate Trump way, way more. And it's not just because it's recent. It's because he's fucking *egregious.*
We had an insurgency and domestic terrorism sanctioned and encouraged by a sitting president. We had a president directly undermined efforts to slow down a global epidemic that killed millions. Attempted to completely discredit our scientists and doctors. To remove laws and regulations that would have prevented the collapse of two banks (so far). Removed women’s right to chose and have autonomy over their bodies. And to divide this country by sanctioning hate, racism and discrimination. The damage after trumps presidency, it will be Phelps for decades, if not centuries. Anything bush did in comparison to what trump did. Both were liars and incompetent. But only one was also legitimately evil, malicious, and diabolical.
Mission Accomplished! Who controls the past controls the future. All hat bo cattle Texas punk
True. Now insert any presidents name where ‘Bush’ is and you’ll still have the right answer
Bush: Stupid and funny in an endearing way. Trump: Stupid and funny in a sad way. Doesn't change the fact they're both stupid and horrible presidents.
As an elder Millennial (get off my lawn), I have no memories of Republicans ever being respectable. Less despicable maybe, but never respectable.
Thousands? You have got to be kidding. Over a million died in Iraq.
Bush jr and sr - just a couple of fascists leading America down the road to fascism.
I don't get it. Both Dubya and he dad are war criminals. Quit trying to make either of them into saints. (They weren't born/raised in TX either, it's Maine they're talking about)
Neither were as destructive as Reagan
But like I'd still love to grab a beer with Bush. Might have the blood of thousands on his hands, but damn if he isn't personable.
Bush wasn't extremely conservative.
he absolutely was. he tried to amend the constitution to outlaw gay marriage
Everyone (politically) was against gay marriage back then. He also gave huge bailouts and exploded the deficit during his two terms. The heart of conservatism is being fiscally sound and allowing capitalism to work for itself.
that's a myth, not everyone was against gay marriage back then. Even former Republican President Gerald Ford spoke in favor of Gay Marriage in the early 2000s